Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2017 February 20

= February 20 =

Should this article be merged, PROD'd or AfD'd?
Museo de Aloe de Lanzarote is a short article about a museum created by the Aloe Plus Lanzarote company; the museum website is part of the company website. I tried to find secondary sources to improve the article but found only travel site and blogs. The article for the town of Arrieta, Lanzarote has one sentence about the museum (or "Museum", as the article says). Should I add another sentence to the Arrieta page and call it a merge? or would it be better to do PROD or AfD (I've never done either, so I'm unsure how to decide)? Thanks, Leschnei (talk) 01:53, 20 February 2017 (UTC)


 * I would say AfD it, as notability cannot be established via secondary sources. I can do so, if you want. Boomer VialHolla! We gonna ball 04:28, 20 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I might as well learn to do it myself. I followed the instructions here, and I'll make sure it's listed at the 3 projects that it's a part of. If I've missed anything, please let me know. Leschnei (talk) 12:29, 20 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Your AFD tag at the top of the article was malformatted, but I've for you.  It tends to be difficult to do all the steps of an AFD submission correctly by hand, so in future you may find it easier to use Twinkle. --David Biddulph (talk) 12:47, 20 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks . I never had a need for Twinkle before. Maybe I'll have to look into it now. Leschnei (talk) 12:57, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Angela Devi
Talk:Angela Devi/Archive 1 and Talk:Angela Devi/Archive 2 appear to be orphaned archives of non-existent talk page of a non-existent article. Should they be deleted?76.14.35.61 (talk) 04:50, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I've nominated both of them for deletion. Boomer VialHolla! We gonna ball 05:08, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
 * And I've speedily deleted them under criterion G8 and closed the nomination. Also, pinging does not work for IP's. Graham 87 08:35, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I was under the assumption pinging IPs did work. How do I notify IP editors of replies to their comments? Leaving an message on their talk page can be rather unreliable. Boomer VialHolla! We gonna ball 20:16, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
 * That's the only way to do it, I'm afraid. Graham 87 01:10, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
 * . Ah. Well thank you anyways. Boomer VialHolla! We gonna ball 08:59, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Help:Cite errors/Cite error included ref
I need to add this as the reference source. Can you guide me How to add this? http://www.indiaglitz.com/list-of-films-produced-by-ibrahim-rowther-with-vijayakanth-as-hero-tamil-news-138254.html-slide1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sharvin Rajkumar (talk • contribs) 07:12, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Editors might want to look at what this user is up to. --Neil N  talk to me 07:42, 20 February 2017 (UTC)


 * See what Eagleash answered to a similar question above:
 * “See WP:REFB for a basic guide to adding refs. and WP:CIT for templates to use.”
 * CiaPan (talk) 09:18, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

How can you change an article title on Wikipedia?
I'd like to change the title on this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scratch_Orchestra to something like Scratch Orchestra (experimental musical ensemble). The reason is that this other article section from "ballet company" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballet_company#Staff uses the term "scratch orchestra," but to mean something quite different. As it is now, however, the term "scratch orchestra" in the ballet article links to the musical ensemble article, which is quite wrong and unhelpful to the reader. You can actually see the meaning of "scratch orchestra" as mentioned in the ballet article here: https://www.quora.com/What-is-a-scratch-orchestra-as-referenced-in-the-details Basically I would like to change the Scratch orchestra title on the musical ensemble article, and possibly I, or someone, should create an article on what a scratch orchestra is as alluded to in the second article.Greg Dahlen (talk) 13:48, 20 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Titles are changed by 'moving' them to a new location. (See WP:MOVE for more information). This is available to you via the 'more' tab at the top of the page. The new title could possibly be Scratch Orchestra (musical ensemble) as the 'genre' is mentioned early in the page and typically, articles for musical groups, where disambiguation is required, are titled XXXX (band) without mention of style etc. Eagleash (talk) 13:57, 20 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Thank you, User:Eagleash. So I successfully changed the article title to Scratch Orchestra (musical ensemble) using the Move feature. But if I go to the Wikipedia search box, it seems to retain the old title, which was only "Scratch Orchestra". If I click on that, it takes me to https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scratch_Orchestra&redirect=no


 * Ideally I would want only the new title to appear as a choice after I type "Scratch Orchestra" into the search box. Do I have to delete the "redirect" page? Greg Dahlen (talk) 09:22, 21 February 2017 (UTC)


 * I have previously noted items not appearing in the search box after a page move or page creation and in my experience it is usually the result of a caching anomaly. There is the slight problem noted above, that there is not a page for 'Scratch Orchestra' as an 'umbrella' term and another editor might see the current page name as unnecessary disambiguation. Whether a page for scratch orchestra as a description rather than a proper name would be 'notable' might be something that requires further discussion. Eagleash (talk) 14:22, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Articles for Deletion
I am trying to test-leave a Delete w/ comment on this page: Mimi Blais; but when I do, it does not appear under the name/section per usual - it shows up here:. Did I set up this AfD incorrectly? Thanks. Maineartists (talk) 14:14, 20 February 2017 (UTC)


 * The entry on WP:Articles for deletion/Log/2017 February 19 is merely a transclusion of WP:Articles for deletion/Mimi Blais. That's the way the log page works. --David Biddulph (talk) 14:21, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks David Biddulph. For some reason, it was not showing up on the log page when I went to check after saving. It is there now, however. I appreciate the help! Maineartists (talk) 14:34, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Caching problem, I guess. --David Biddulph (talk) 14:37, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Speedy
The following categories (Category:American country music group navigational boxes‎, Category:Brazilian musical group navigational boxes‎ and Category:German musical group navigational boxes‎) were listed at Categories for discussion/Speedy. Did I write my objection correctly at that site? Also, is there a quick and easy way to find articles that have bare URLs? Please ping me when you respond. --Jax 0677 (talk) 15:39, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
 * [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&fulltext=1&search=insource%3A%2F%5C%3Cref%5C%3Ehttp%2F&ns0=1&searchToken=ev1orkibm7773w2jt0qlwu3w4 This search] finds thousands of articles that contain the exact text . That's not a complete answer to your question, but if you are planning to fix them, that should be enough to keep you busy for a while.  -- John of Reading (talk) 19:23, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Referencing errors on Heterochrony
Reference help requested.

I had three sources that I added to an article that the ReferenceBot flagged as having "PMC errors". When checking the source, it looks like the values were input as |pmc = PMC######. I have removed the PMC portion and left only digits remaining, but I'm not sure if that was what threw the error in the first place, or if some additional/different error may have occurred. How can I tell if that was the problem that caused the error, and if it is now fixed? Kenneth.leep (talk) 17:05, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Kenneth.leep (talk) 17:05, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Kenneth.leep You can see that the presence of "PMC" caused an error by going to the previous version of the article and observing the red messages  in the References section. Those messages are not present in the current version. Here is where to refer to for formatting of this and similar identifiers Noyster  (talk),  10:53, 21 February 2017 (UTC)


 * The error is apparently caused by some part of the visual editor.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 11:18, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Why don't categories appera in the Wikipedia app?
In the section on information about the article, I would have expected the categories to appear on the iP{hone app. Where are they? JMcC (talk) 17:35, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
 * You can change to Desktop view by clicking the link with the same name at the bottom. Cats are  hidden  tO save dAta space.--Moxy (talk) 17:55, 20 February 2017 (UTC)--Moxy (talk) 17:55, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
 * , this question has been answered both times that you asked it on this page. Please look for responses before posting the same question again.  † dismas †|(talk) 22:48, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Dennis Christopher
Two different dates of birth visible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.136.38.103 (talk) 20:59, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
 * You could try and contact his agent or publicist. Lyrda (talk) 00:39, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
 * , unless the agent provides a link to a reliable source, their research would be useless. † dismas †|(talk) 01:00, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Sources don't need to be online. Lyrda (talk) 01:31, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
 * No, but contacting someone's agent or publicist is a form of original research and is not permitted here. As Dismas said, the best you could hope for is that they could identify an independent, published, secondary or tertiary source for the information. Someone telling you someone else's birthdate, or even giving you a copy of their birth certificate, is not a verifiable, reliable source.  General Ization  Talk   02:04, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, actors' and musicians' agents, are notoriously unreliable when it comes to their clients' ages .... - Arjayay (talk) 09:22, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Prince Christian of Denmark
I have added  a verifiable ref. (number 7) but please remove the little "citation needed" which is still beside it. Thank you.Srbernadette (talk) 21:56, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅ Maproom (talk) 22:40, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Surely you could have removed that tag yourself. Please learn basic referencing; you come here so much it's ridiculous. Jjamesryan (talk &#124; contribs) 22:47, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Completely inappropriate remark for the Help Desk; both unwarranted and unnecessary. Maineartists (talk) 23:21, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
 * The remark by Jjamesryan was entirely appropriate and justified. Srbernadette and his numerous IPs continue to waste the time of help desk volunteers by always requesting other people to sort out trivial errors.  He has made no effort to learn from the hundreds of replies which he has received explaining how to make edits and in particular how to format references and where to find reminders if he forgets how to do it.  I find it impossible to understand why he continues to make the same sort of errors.  For example why does he keep putting dates in the publisher parameter rather than the date parameter, despite having been told countless times?  He claims to understand English, but if he does understand English it is difficult to rule out the thought that he is being deliberately disruptive. --David Biddulph (talk) 23:35, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, he claims to have students who have trouble editing as well. I find it impossible to believe that A) he has students that he is teaching with this editing, and B) that his students are not smart enough to follow the same instructions that he has been given as well. And if he is called out on any of this, he ignores the questions and comments. † dismas †|(talk) 01:02, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Has anyone ever received a reply from the editor? I have seen multiple replies with questions to their help desk requests, and their talk page has other users' comments. I'm not sure if you watch the help desk or for how long you have, but the user constantly makes requests with the exact same solutions. I find it extremely improbable that anyone with common sense could not figure it out after this long. Seeing so many comments wasting other editors' time has almost prompted me to reply, but this almost comical request was the straw that broke the camel's back. The user has made over 1,000 edits and yet does not know how to remove a "citation needed" tag? Jjamesryan (talk &#124; contribs) 06:12, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
 * What to do with Srbernadette's questions has been debated already: Wikipedia_talk:Help_desk/Archive_12. Also, Srbernadette is a she (see Bernadette). Tigraan Click here to contact me 08:26, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Srbernadette has difficulty doing some things that most of us find easy. I can't explain why she has this difficulty, but I've accepted that she has it – just as some people can't add 2-digit numbers in their heads. So I help her. She is always polite, and her intentions are constructive. Maproom (talk) 08:53, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
 * The reason why I referred to the editor as "him", is because he has signed messages as "Mike" or "Mike E". --David Biddulph (talk) 09:14, 21 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Here is my 2-cents (For what it's worth) for someone who did not know that backstory, it did not speak well for those who come to the help desk for actual help and see that kind of response. How were we supposed to know? Now ... I have studied the OP / IPs' edit and talk page history thoroughly from the beginning, (even all the above OP's exchanges) it seems that there is clearly a disconnect -- but not just with this editor. The constant repetition of short, non-engaged language, the intensive interest of similar topics, returning to the same desks/editors once contact is made, the exaggerated, urgent pleading for help and always saying: "sorry". I think the history of dealing with the constant barrage has drawn agitation and frustration from even mild-mannered editors such as Lourdes; however, I'm worried that we may be guilty of condemning where a mental difficulty may be at play here. If so, God help us. I am tending to side with Maproom on this; who has shown more decency in their exchange than the popular "WE" vs "you" found here on WP. I've read many of the responses; and, honestly? I wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing the way some of WP editors have treated WP:CIVIL this one if indeed we knew the actual story behind the cause of frustration. Maineartists (talk) 14:45, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I like to think of myself as fairly easy-going (whether I am may be another story), and my original comment was definitely more abrupt than most of mine. If a mental illness is the cause, then I apologise profusely. Nonetheless, I don't think my comment violated CIVIL whatsoever. I just skimmed through it again, and I think there is a definite difference between uncivil and to-the-point. Jjamesryan (talk &#124; contribs) 00:24, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Jjamesryan Perhaps. But I never said it violated WP:CIVIL, I said it "didn't speak well" to newcomers visiting the page. That being said, it leans more to incivility than to-the-point to equate an editor's visitation as being "ridiculous" than not: WP:CIVIL #9 "Avoid appearing to ridicule another editor's comment. Even if you see the comment as ridiculous". IMHO Maineartists (talk) 01:07, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I said the number of times the editor makes repetitive requests was ridiculous. The Oxford Dictionary defines "ridiculous" as "Deserving or inviting derision or mockery" and "absurd". I did not mean ridiculous in the first sense, but in the second. It's not detrimental, just... bizarre. Jjamesryan (talk &#124; contribs) 05:40, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
 * With all due respect, we do not get to choose how one receives our words; the person who it's directed toward does ... If you need to defend it in that much detail (a word that is negative in tone), then the discussion has become circular in justification. Let's just choose to agree that we disagree and leave it at that. Happy editing! Best. Maineartists (talk) 13:03, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Okay. Whether it is an agreement to disagree, or a miscommunication, this discussion has run its course. Thank you for a constructive debate — that's not guaranteed with everyone. Jjamesryan (talk &#124; contribs) 20:45, 23 February 2017 (UTC)