Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2021 December 3

= December 3 =

Change my display to single column for ref
Pardon, probably an unusual question, and could not think how to search for an answer. Is there a simple means to stop ref lists displaying as multiple columns in pages I'm reading, as a personal preference I mean? ~ cygnis insignis 01:49, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't know how to formally disable reference columns but you can make the columns wider than the window to give the same effect. The lines should still wrap within the window. Try this in :


 * PrimeHunter (talk) 02:12, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Greatly appreciated (it annoys me to be scrolling up and down as I scan through a list). ~ cygnis insignis 02:47, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Citing a digital plant identification key
Hi, I'm wondering how I should cite Australian Rainforest Plants (Rockhamption to Victoria), which is an identification key that is only available by purchasing either a USB or an iPhone app. There doesn't seem to be a citation template specifically for this type of media &mdash; should I use the book template? It is, after all, a publication just like a book except that it's digital. — Junglenut &#124; talk 03:55, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * A couple of things. For one, it appears to be a wp:self published source, which may not necessarily meet certain criteria for citing. Nevertheless, Gwen Harden and John Beaumont Williams are known botanists. You could use cite ebook for accuracy, although that redirects to cite book. The url is to a commercial site, and it might be best not to include it. An internet search for the title below brings it up at the top of the hits anyway. Couldn't find an ISBN. How about this (with url)?


 * I'm sure there will be other approaches. MinorProphet (talk) 08:21, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for those thoughts. According to cite book the url parameter should only be used "where the text of the publication named by title can be found", so I won't use that. This key is the reimagined product of earlier physical publications by Harden, McDonald and Williams (all verified Australian botanists) so I'll prioritise them in the citations. This is how I'm thinking it should be done:
 * How does that look to you? — Junglenut &#124; talk 11:16, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Looks pretty good to me. I've never quite understood the point of display-authors since it completely hides (except when editing) the remaining authors who you have spent time adding to the cite. If 'et al' could be made to appear in a sfn but all the authors were shown in in the full cite in the bibliography, that might make sense: but it doesn't do that. Template:Citation isn't particularly forthcoming either. Maybe I'm missing something - perhaps it has to do with meta-data. MinorProphet (talk) 12:13, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * If 'et al' could be made to appear in a sfn but all the authors were shown in in the full cite in the bibliography, that might make sense: but it doesn't do that.
 * That is just not true. Here is a contrived citation with a bunch of colors for names and the attendant short-form citation ( use here in lieu of  for simplicity):
 * First the short form:
 * and the target citation:
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 13:11, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Do not abuse parameters. last2 holds the name of a single author; may include given and surnames but never for more than one author.  Use display-authors to note that some author names have been omitted from the template or that that some author names in the template are not displayed in the rendered citation.  others holds the names of 'other' contributors to the source who do not fit in author, contributor, editor, interviewer, translator.
 * Where is the 'Digital identification key' in the citation? How is a reader supposed to know which of the '1139 species' (or whatever) it is that you are citing?  Always be specific with this and any other citation; don't make an interested reader search through a 500 page book to find the one page where the cited fact is located; provide the page number.  For your example citation, name the species and provide a url or some other sort of in-source locator.  If the url links to something that is behind a paywall, add subscription.  Because this source is more like an encyclopedia than a book, consider rewriting using :
 * – Digital identification key, published as USB and mobile app
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 13:11, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much for your most helpful and concise post, Trappist. 1.) It was certainly not my intention to abuse last2, I was merely being terminally lazy and hoping that the OP would realise that all the other authors needed specifying in the proper way. I think I was correct in this. 2.) I also wondered whether there were page numbers in the source, or how to find any particular entry - Junglenut didn't specify one - your example using {cite encyclopedia} is an admirable alternative. 3.) Thank you for clearing up some of my confusion about 'et al'. That's much like what I was hoping for. The last time I tried this (about 5 years ago) I couldn't get it to work with {sfn}s, and have never bothered since. I should have. Nevertheless, see below. 4.) The phrase "Digital identification key" appeared in the OP's section heading. The linked page calls it an "Interactive Identification Key", but it seems to be a descriptive term rather than part of the work's official title. Sorry. 4.) I have always used   for sites such as The Times paywall, where the entire news website (ie url is effectively blocked unless you shell out. I also wondered hard about this. The link that Junglenut provided is not such a page, nor does the specific url hide behind a paywall - it's more like any standard commercial site selling things, and you have to pay for the particular work in question, just like eg Amazon. I really have no desire to enter into minute discussions over this, I accept your knowledge and expertise. As I said in my initial reply, I think the url is unnecessary. Thanks again for your careful comments and demonstrating the correct use of certain parameters. However:
 * --MinorProphet (talk) 20:22, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I think that on this help page, being terminally lazy and hoping that the OP would realise that all the other authors needed specifying in the proper way is not a good idea. Answers here should be scrupulously correct because the answers that we give are read by newbies who will take what we've written as the gospel truth.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 22:39, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Do not abuse parameters. last2 holds the name of a single author; may include given and surnames but never for more than one author.  Use display-authors to note that some author names have been omitted from the template or that that some author names in the template are not displayed in the rendered citation.  others holds the names of 'other' contributors to the source who do not fit in author, contributor, editor, interviewer, translator.
 * Where is the 'Digital identification key' in the citation? How is a reader supposed to know which of the '1139 species' (or whatever) it is that you are citing?  Always be specific with this and any other citation; don't make an interested reader search through a 500 page book to find the one page where the cited fact is located; provide the page number.  For your example citation, name the species and provide a url or some other sort of in-source locator.  If the url links to something that is behind a paywall, add subscription.  Because this source is more like an encyclopedia than a book, consider rewriting using :
 * – Digital identification key, published as USB and mobile app
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 13:11, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much for your most helpful and concise post, Trappist. 1.) It was certainly not my intention to abuse last2, I was merely being terminally lazy and hoping that the OP would realise that all the other authors needed specifying in the proper way. I think I was correct in this. 2.) I also wondered whether there were page numbers in the source, or how to find any particular entry - Junglenut didn't specify one - your example using {cite encyclopedia} is an admirable alternative. 3.) Thank you for clearing up some of my confusion about 'et al'. That's much like what I was hoping for. The last time I tried this (about 5 years ago) I couldn't get it to work with {sfn}s, and have never bothered since. I should have. Nevertheless, see below. 4.) The phrase "Digital identification key" appeared in the OP's section heading. The linked page calls it an "Interactive Identification Key", but it seems to be a descriptive term rather than part of the work's official title. Sorry. 4.) I have always used   for sites such as The Times paywall, where the entire news website (ie url is effectively blocked unless you shell out. I also wondered hard about this. The link that Junglenut provided is not such a page, nor does the specific url hide behind a paywall - it's more like any standard commercial site selling things, and you have to pay for the particular work in question, just like eg Amazon. I really have no desire to enter into minute discussions over this, I accept your knowledge and expertise. As I said in my initial reply, I think the url is unnecessary. Thanks again for your careful comments and demonstrating the correct use of certain parameters. However:
 * --MinorProphet (talk) 20:22, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I think that on this help page, being terminally lazy and hoping that the OP would realise that all the other authors needed specifying in the proper way is not a good idea. Answers here should be scrupulously correct because the answers that we give are read by newbies who will take what we've written as the gospel truth.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 22:39, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I think that on this help page, being terminally lazy and hoping that the OP would realise that all the other authors needed specifying in the proper way is not a good idea. Answers here should be scrupulously correct because the answers that we give are read by newbies who will take what we've written as the gospel truth.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 22:39, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

If I had come randomly across this particular problem without prompting, I think I would have done it as follows - following the order of authors etc. listed on the website. Sorry for the vertical layout in the raw text, I find it much easier to get authorX-last right...

But  results in  with a warning (probably trivial and not an error as such although it looks like one), because Template:sfn "Only the first four authors are required by the template. Listing more is not supported."

harvnb similarly also only supports 4 authors, and more become 'et al' Template:Harvard citation no brackets "Only the first four authors are required by the template. Listing more is not supported."

But  does work, but without the warning:


 * – Interactive identification key, published as USB and mobile app

So, it appears that adding  to the {cite} doesn't affect the {sfn}, although having more than 3 authors in the {sfn} or {harv} etc. does. Thanks again for your help. MinorProphet (talk) 20:22, 3 December 2021 (UTC)


 * and (and the other  variants) have always only supported a maximum of four names when creating links to cs1|2 templates.  Similarly, cs1|2 templates have always only supported four names when creating anchor IDs that  etc link to.  Module:Footnotes is smart enough to figure out what to do with the extra name in:
 * (also etc)
 * The Module:check for unknown parameters is an add-on to to notify editors that they have written a malformed template; it has not been added to .  Including more than four names serves no purpose because those extraneous names are ignored.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 22:39, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks again for your intelligent and perceptive comments. I tend to forget that the wp:Help desk™ (praised be its name) is one of the primary and immediate sources for information about how WP works. The whole English-speaking world may be listening. Your insistence on scrupulously correct information is, of course, the best course to take. I apologize for my laxness. Further to the subject at hand: So, it appears that the warning about using more than four names in sfns has at last been suppressed, and that it now acts like harv etc. in converting more than 4 authors to  without complaint. This seems like an improvement on , although this obviously also has its specific uses. On a related side issue: I am still intrigued as to the purpose of display-authors and/or display-editors if they completely and absolutely suppress the formatted display of parameters such as   etc. which have been painstakingly typed out by the editor in the comprehensive and full cite, which is often the case with scientific papers with multiple contributors. I may be mistaken. Can you perhaps enlighten me, please? Best regards, :>MinorProphet (talk) 13:53, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
 * So, it appears that the warning about using more than four names in sfns has at last been suppressed, and that it now acts like harv etc. in converting more than 4 authors to without complaint.
 * Umm, what?  emits a warning message in preview that looks something like this:
 * does not emit that preview warning so I don't know what you mean by sfns ... now [act] like harv
 * display-&lt;names> completely and absolutely suppress the formatted display of enumerated author, contributor, editor, interviewer, translator parameters when the enumerator is greater than the value assigned to display-&lt;names>. Remember that the purpose of citation is to help the reader find the source that supports some portion of the text in an en.wiki article.  For example, this citation has 453 author names; readers don't really need all of those 453 names to find a copy of the cited source.  With so many names, the important details of the citation are lost in what becomes a wall of names; citations are not memorials to the authors.
 * Even though a citation may be using display-&lt;names> to limit the quantity of names that are visually rendered, under the bonnet, all of the names are included in the citation's metadata so they are available to those who consume cs1|2 citations using reference management software.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 14:39, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Apologies, the preview warning naturally disappears when you save. I was confused, sorry. Thank you for confirming what I suspected in my original reply to the OP, that the complete list of authors can be used for metadata purposes. Thank you for patience and expertise in clearing up these minor points for me. MinorProphet (talk) 02:06, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Even though a citation may be using display-&lt;names> to limit the quantity of names that are visually rendered, under the bonnet, all of the names are included in the citation's metadata so they are available to those who consume cs1|2 citations using reference management software.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 14:39, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Apologies, the preview warning naturally disappears when you save. I was confused, sorry. Thank you for confirming what I suspected in my original reply to the OP, that the complete list of authors can be used for metadata purposes. Thank you for patience and expertise in clearing up these minor points for me. MinorProphet (talk) 02:06, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Apologies, the preview warning naturally disappears when you save. I was confused, sorry. Thank you for confirming what I suspected in my original reply to the OP, that the complete list of authors can be used for metadata purposes. Thank you for patience and expertise in clearing up these minor points for me. MinorProphet (talk) 02:06, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Page is wrongly in category, can't remove
Category:Lichens described in 2009 is a subcategory of Category:Animals described in 2009, but this is wrong because lichens aren't animals. The lichens page's code has just two pieces of data: Category:Fungi described in 2009 (which is right because lichens are fungal) and Category described in year. How can I remove the animals category? Category described in year doesn't seem to have a way to force the appearance or non-appearance of "animals" in transcluded categories. 120.159.92.196 (talk) 07:42, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * This seems to be an issue with the Category described in year template. I would suggest asking at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tree of Life as helpdesk advisors may not have the specialiost knowledge needed to answer this. TSventon (talk) 07:57, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * It's not just 2009 either - Lichens appears in this category for other years as well (I only checked 2005-2008) — Junglenut &#124; talk 08:04, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * It's controlled in Module:Category described in year/conf by Tom.Reding. There is currently no Lichens group and it defaults to animals. PrimeHunter (talk) 08:26, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Raised @ WT:WikiProject Tree of Life.  ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  13:08, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

How do I get the Modern Skin back?
I've been using the Modern Skin since 2010 or so, maybe earlier, and accidentally changed it when changing some of my preferences; I didn't realize when I clicked Preview on another skin it actually selected it, so I Saved my changes without noticing and now Modern isn't on the list of available Skins. The Modern Skin was the easiest on my eyes, with the blue and grey, so I'd really like to know if there's some way I can get this back? Schizowallflower (talk) 09:01, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Already answered at the Teahouse. Please don't cross post.--Shantavira|feed me 09:13, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Styling my userpage
Hi, I want to change the background color of my userpage. I have created a css file, however, I don't know how to implement it properly. Can you help me? Thank you.--John the Janitor (talk) 11:37, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I think you can read Help:User_style. Ruslik_ Zero 15:29, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Surveys with Wikipedia users
Hi, I am a Ph.D. student in History and I examine how historical knowledge is produced on Wikipedia. One part of my research is to ask Wikipedia users about their experience of writing about history on Wikipedia. I sent a survey to some Wikipedia users by using the "email me" option. However, Wikipedia detects that as a bot action and an "action throttled" message appears. Could you please help me with that issue? I want just to send a survey to the members of the WikiProject United States History. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Apolo1991 (talk • contribs) 3 December 2021 13:38 (UTC)
 * Just aggressively emailing individuals asking them to participate is being correctly throttled as a spamming action. I suggest asking on the project's talk page. Anyone who sounds interested can then be individually emailed. This would keep the number low enough to avoid triggering a throttle. Nosebagbear (talk) 18:10, 3 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks for letting me know. I left a message to the WikiProject's talk page. Apolo1991 (talk) 18:36, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Are Wikipedia User Pages hidden from Google search?
I don't seem to be able to see them for myself or other users, and I can't find a page about it. Wakelamp d&#91;@-@&#93;b (talk) 13:56, 3 December 2021 (UTC)


 * From what I've seen from other user's answers, yes they are. It appears that only mainspace (article) pages are show to Google. ― Blaze The WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 14:00, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I am happy for them to be hidden. (It's not all of wikipedia space - I can see user names on portal. Thanks for the helpWakelamp d&#91;@-@&#93;b (talk) 14:09, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * On English Wikipedia, User and Draft namespaces (including User talk and Draft talk) are no-indexed, which means they don't appear on search engines. Controlling search engine indexing. This doesn't apply to other language Wikipedias, as every language does things indeoendently. Joseph2302 (talk) 14:12, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * @Wakelamp: for more information on this, see WP:INDEXING. Isabelle 🔔 14:16, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Awesome !! I couldn't find that link. Wakelamp d&#91;@-@&#93;b (talk) 03:10, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

How to get started
hi, i new to contributing to ur site & were wondering if i can or allowed to contribute to makin a page for mentally obsessed the podcast bout interviews, they’ve interviewed ppl such as steve downes the voice of master chief & voice actors frm games such as resident evil, valorant, & more, im a fan & it deserves to be on ur platform, but i thought i’d ask first cus u might take it down, they have references in news sources like, metro, & express and star — Preceding unsigned comment added by Goodiegoldhammer (talk • contribs) 15:37, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi there! Creating a new article is one of the hardest things to do on Wikipedia, especially if you have a conflict of interest (COI).  To learn how to edit, you could view Help:Introduction and The Wikipedia Adventure.  I suggest then spending a significant amount of time editing existing articles to hone your skills.  When you're ready to create an article, you would gather independent reliable sources that have provided significant coverage of the podcast, and determine whether it meet Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, called "notability".  If so, you could declare any COI on your user page and then follow the instructions at Help:Your first article, and be prepared for a process that may include months of waiting, rejections, and rewrites, before an article is created.  If you are successful, then you could never edit the article if you have a COI, but could submit edit requests on the article talk page.  Hope this helps.  GoingBatty (talk) 16:14, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Adding to what GoingBatty said, we have list of sources that's been discussed several times, WP:RSP, and if I understand you correctly, the sources you mentioned are generally considered, well, bad. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:21, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * More specifically,, Metro is junk, the Daily Express is junk, and the Daily Star is worse than junk. The Guardian, The Observer, and (if you can tolerate its deluge of advertising) The Independent are those rarities: British alternatives that aren't junk. You might look there for sources. However, you should first take GoingBatty's excellent advice. -- Hoary (talk) 23:44, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * If this is the Metro source you were thinking of, it wouldn't help if it was in The Times, it's not independent of the subject. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:49, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

2023 NCAA Men's Final Four Logo
Can you Please Upload the 2023 NCAA Men's Final Four Logo Please 98.186.54.177 (talk) 19:26, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi there! I suggest you post your request on Talk:2023 NCAA Division I Men's Basketball Tournament, with a URL of where someone can find the logo.  Happy editing!  GoingBatty (talk) 04:49, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Thaleops taxonomy help
Hello, I’m Ian creating a page of the Illaenid Trilobite Thaleops, however I am having a problem where it says I am missing taxonomic templates, if anyone can go in their and see what’s wrong would be awesome, thanks

Fossiladder13 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fossiladder13 (talk • contribs) 21:07, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * This question is too specialised for me, and maybe for many of those who answer questions here. You could ask at at WikiProject_Arthropods.  Maproom (talk) 22:34, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Looks like the issue was already resolved. Rummskartoffel 13:54, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Did you know/Supplementary guidelines
Can anyone see what I'm doing wrong with the archiving here? I added an archives, then tried to archive the first section to test it. It failed twice. —valereee (talk) 21:08, 3 December 2021 (UTC) — Vchimpanzee  •  talk  •  contributions  •  22:54, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Namaste
I've received a notification of a welcome message at what I understand is Fiji Hindi Wikipedia. I'm unaware of ever having contributed there (indeed I was unaware of its existence), and have no listed contributions there. Is everyone getting these, or is it just me? I'm not complaining, I'm happy to accept "Namaste" from a random stranger; I'm just puzzled. Maproom (talk) 22:54, 3 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Firstly, Namaste to you Maproom. I visited the Fiji Hindi Wikipedia using your link and I immediately received the namaste welcome message. So, I suspect that whoever has configured that Wikipedia's welcome messages has configured it in a way that one receives the message upon visiting that Wikipedia in a logged-in mode. Usually I have seen other language Wikipedia projects configure it to send a message based on an user's first logged-in edit (not a visit). PS: I also did not know that the Fijian Hindi wikipedia did not use the Devanagiri script. Was surprised to see it use English-Latin sript. Filing this under 'Today I learnt' section of my mind. Ktin (talk) 23:19, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * The logs say your account was created the same minute as the welcome. According to seconds, it was created one second before. Account creations at other wikis usually happen because you visit any page while logged in. They can also happen if a page you edited at another wiki is imported but there are no imports since April. PrimeHunter (talk) 02:18, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

How to collapse a template that will not respond to the state=collapsed parameter
The template is included at the bottom of the IBM 5100 page. The template is currently being displayed as Open (on the page) and I would like to collapse it. Normally I would do this by simply adding the parameter state=collapsed to the template but when I do this to this template on the IBM 5100 page the template remains open. How would I close this template on this page? FFM784 (talk) 23:39, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * It requires that a  parameter is implemented in the template. I have done it. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:55, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you.FFM784 (talk) 02:39, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Donations (a different thread)
I would love to donate Bitcoin to Wikipedia, and I'm sure if we advertise that option on twitter there will be others that will send some as well. It might not be much but every little bit can help. If anyone wants more information on how to accomplish adding this feature please don't hesitate to contact me. I am not a programmer but I am familiar with most options to accept/store/covert bitcoin. It can be saved or instantly converted to dollars. Thanks for all of your contributions!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.248.100.205 (talk) 23:56, 3 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your offer, but I'm pretty sure that there's enough knowledge about how to handle (and how/why not to handle) the various rival e-moneys. If you have something specific in mind, you could suggest it to the WMF rather than to just a single Wikipedia. -- Hoary (talk) 00:11, 4 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Added "(a different thread)" to the title, for technical reasons. -- Hoary (talk) 00:12, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
 * See donate:Ways to Give. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:42, 4 December 2021 (UTC)