Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2022 August 20

= August 20 =

Image selection
How do I display a previous version of an image from Wikimedia Commons? I made a request at Graphics Lab/Photography workshop to have a border removed from an image I wanted to use in HMS Aigle (1801).[] The day after this was resolved, another user uploaded another version with a border and now I can't get the cropped version to display in the article. Thanks --Ykraps (talk) 08:11, 20 August 2022 (UTC)


 * I don't believe that there's a way to do this, Ykraps. If both versions are to be used, they need to be separate files on Commons. ColinFine (talk) 08:36, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * You can accomplish this by downloading the version you want to your own computer, and then uploading it under a different name to Commons. On the description page of the new file, describe where it cam from (i.e., the old file, cropped), then use your new file.
 * Ykraps, if the file is on Commons you can use CropTool (in the left-hand side-bar) to remove the border. Check the radio button for "upload as new file", then use your new image in the article. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:09, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Ping fail: . I've now looked at the image. The new upload is of much better quality, but needs straightening. I'll see if I can do that in the next hour or so. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:12, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * , please see this. Is that OK? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:39, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Okay, so the answer is to create another file or crop the new image, thanks. That's great. Thank you for doing that.--Ykraps (talk) 07:41, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 * in fact, there is a way to do this without any image manipulation or fiddling in Commons; it's via a template that can select any portion of an image and display it. That's the good news. The bad news is that the template has an excruciatingly painful interface, and actually learning a new crop tool on Commons and building a cropped image with it, may be surely must be easier than figuring out how to use the $#*@**&@ template. However, that could be fixed, in time, by creating a wrapper for it with a decent interface, in which case you'd have crop & zoom at your fingertips, and border-cropped images in seconds. I've long had it on my list of things to do to create such a wrapper, and when my to-do list gets below 999, or the shouting becomes loud enough, I'll probably do it. (If you noticed that I haven't linked the template, it's only because I'm concerned for your sanity.) If you do a lot of these border-snipping, or other crop operations, come to my talk page and start yelling. Cheers, Mathglot (talk) 04:23, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
 * All Wikipedia editing is at one's own risk anyway, so I'll be bold. It's CSS image crop. * Pppery * it has begun... 04:25, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I struggle to get my head around some of the simpler templates so I'll probably leave that well alone but thanks anyway.--Ykraps (talk) 05:36, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
 * , if you're short of stuff to work on, how about creating (a) a straightening tool and (b) a basic brightness/contrast/exposure tool on Commons, as simple and easy to learn as CropTool? Or just add these capabilities to that tool ... ? It's a PITA to have to download/edit/re-upload a file just to rotate it 0.5° counter-clockwise, for example. Regards, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 08:00, 22 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Lol, I'll add that to the list. I've got the straightening tool almost ready for you; the only problem is, it makes the choppy seas in the HMS Aigle image look like the surface of Mirror Lake, so I think I overtuned the straightening factor. Let me try again, and get back to you...  Mathglot (talk) 08:24, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Template Data Cite map
On the page Template:Cite map/TemplateData there's an error that just says "can't find TemplateData"... can anyone find what's the error supposed to be? Thanks! BMACS1002 (talk) 15:22, 20 August 2022 (UTC)


 * I don't see that error, BMACS1002. But in any case, a template page itself often gives odd results because when you are looking at it, it has no arguments to interpret. ColinFine (talk) 16:20, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Reference List
How do I get the beautiful two column reference list I see on other pages? The page I'm trying to fix is Phu Quoc Ridgeback. Annwfwn (talk) Annwfwn (talk) 15:42, 20 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Nevermind I think I figured it out! Annwfwn (talk) 16:00, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia pages on iPhone
Many Wikipedia pages on my iPhone now display the introductory paragraphs of the entry, but below that just shows the article subheadings in bold black script - but there is no text below the subheading, and no hyperlink Jimlonborg (talk) 16:57, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Hello, . I am an Android user not an iPhone user, but I suggest that you scroll to the very bottom of the page and select the "Desktop" option, which should display the entire article properly. Cullen328 (talk) 18:08, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Question
What is the meaning of organisation — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.114.216.142 (talk) 17:03, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Read Organization. Cullen328 (talk) 18:10, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Sir John Brereton1576-1629 (Irish Lawyer)
I want help in removing a photo of my 10X great-grandfather (Sir John Bramston) from this Page. It is clearly described as another husband of Elizabeth Brabazon, but has been picked up on Images, other similar sites, and many Family Trees as Sir John Brereton. Having difficulty in having it removed from a member's Find A Grave Memorial, even after having sent much proof. Can you have this photo removed from Brereton's Wikipedia page? Thank-you, Ken Duncan, Vancouver, BC Sir Bramston (talk) 17:10, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * the picture is clearly named and is clearly described in John Brereton (Irish lawyer) as being a picture of Bramston, not Brereton. Its inclusion in the article is a matter of editorial judgement and in the opinion of an editor (with which I concur) it adds to the article. Wikipedia is not responsible for the misuse of this information by others and we cannot let it affect our editorial judgement. If either party were a living person this would be different, but that is not the case. -Arch dude (talk) 17:55, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I believe that your Board should not be party to the misuse of my 10X great-grandfather's image. He has no connection to Brereton other than having been married to the same woman.
 * He now appears as Brereton on Wiki Tree ?, on Images and then, due to the careless research of others, on many Family Trees.
 * As it turns out, even the FAG John Brereton is the wrong John Brereton, a distant relative!
 * Bramston adds nothing to Brereton's Wikipedia, he is not a relative. Would you want your photo added as well?
 * For the sake of clarity, please remove the Chief Justice's portrait.
 * Ken Duncan Sir Bramston (talk) 18:19, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not responsible for careless research and errors by others. If you mean the board of the Wikimedia Foundation, they are not involved in any way, shape or form with the content of individual articles. This is a volunteer project. How can Wikipedia be misusing your ancestor's image when there is no image of him on Wikipedia? That's not logical. If you have access to an image of the man, that could certainly be added to beginning of the article. Cullen328 (talk) 18:28, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Again, my ancestor IS Sir John Bramston, Lord Chief Justice of the King's Bench. His portrait DOES appear on the Wikipedia page for Sir John Brereton. Their only connection is having both been married to Elizabeth Brabazon of Ardee.
 * Your confusion only adds to my contention that mistakes in comprehending a source are easy to make.
 * A large amount of info, including several portraits, are available online about my direct ancestor, Sir John Bramston.
 * Can find no portraits of either John Brereton.
 * Ken Duncan Sir Bramston (talk) 18:49, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Further- If you (Wikipedia) are responsible for Wiki Wand, the portrait of Bramston again appears as Brereton. With NO labelling as to the man's identity.
 * Please remove or correct.
 * Ken Duncan Sir Bramston (talk) 18:31, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * the filename contains Bramston's name. The image in the John Brereton (Irish lawyer) article contains Bramston's name. The image description file contains Bramston's name. That is just about as well labelled as we can get. Instead of asking us to fix this, please spend your time asking the folks that are abusing our material in the first place. -Arch dude (talk) 18:45, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * This request comes after months of contacting the FAG manager (she cannot remove posts made by others), contacting FAG who said they would investigate (nothing was done).
 * I finally received a response from the photo poster, he asked for proof, which was sent. Turns out he had posted it on the wrong John Brereton. Have posted some proof on this FAG Memorial.
 * He believes that Wikipedia must be correct, doesn't seem to see the labelling on Bramston.
 * I AM tempted to correct many Family Trees.
 * So don't assume that I have only contacted you for a solution.
 * Ken Duncan Sir Bramston (talk) 18:58, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not a party to the misuse of others of our site. We have no policy under which it makes sense to remove they picture of your relative from our article on another person. The only "policy" or guideline that might apply is WP:IAR, and that would require that the editors of John Brereton (Irish lawyer) reach a consensus in favor of removal. I just do not see this happening. We very frequently are accused of enabling abusers of our information. We cannot use that affect our collective editorial judgement. -Arch dude (talk) 18:39, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * If in fact the person depicted in the article is not the person who married Brereton's widow, then post to the talk page of the article with some sources, because then obviously the picture should not be there. That we can help you with.
 * As to all the rest, I don't even know what "FAG" might be, and as we keep telling you, we can't be responsible for other sites' incompetency. -- Orange Mike &#124;  Talk  19:28, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry, FAG is Find A Grave, belonging to Ancestry.
 * The photo of Bramston IS the person once married to Brereton's widow. Just NOT THIS Brereton! I Am attempting to have this corrected.
 * It would be simpler to talk to only ONE volunteer about a single matter.
 * I am now informed that you are Volunteers.
 * This would explain the sometimes cavalier and once accusatory attitude I have experienced. No boss or paycheque to worry about.
 * Only an upset descendant.
 * This will be my final response to you on this matter.
 * Ken Duncan Sir Bramston (talk) 20:37, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, removing the image from the John Brereton (Irish lawyer) Wikipedia page (if that is what you are requesting) would not affect any other site, such as Find A Grave. The image is hosted on Wikimedia Commons and would remain there even if removed from the Wikipedia article. But even removing it from Commons would have no effect if other sites have made a copy of it. CodeTalker (talk) 19:36, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

But I mean on the merits...
So, in the article John Brereton (Irish lawyer) we give the info that his wife dated some guy before she married Brereton, then married that guy after Brereton died, and fine; appropriate info, particularly since she (Brereton's wife) was related to bluelinked people. But I mean would we normally have a picture? For John Smith, would we have "Here's picture of a guy Smith's wife dated and later married. He never met Smith and doesn't have anything to do with this article really, but whatever." Text to that effect, fine, but a picture?

As to "We don't give a tinker's dam if misinformation is spread around the internet because of us, cos we didn't break any of our internal rules", enh, I'm not seeing great virtue in that either.

Considering both of these are in play (altho I recognize that only the first will have traction here) I've BOLDly removed the picture from the article. Of course anyone can revert that, but further discussion should probably be on the article talk page. Herostratus (talk) 23:54, 20 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Herostratus,
 * At last a common sense decision. I thank you!
 * This will ensure that other members of this huge family, will not be able to promote incorrect information.
 * I have "suggested" to the FAG Manager of the John Brereton never married to my 10x step great-grandmother, his actual wife's identity.
 * I have removed all mention of her from the wrong FAG.
 * I have authored a FAG for the correct John Brereton, including my ancestors FAG number. (I realize FAG is not your site)
 * I now will attempt to have John Bramston's portrait removed from Wiki Wand, any connection?
 * Again, thanks,
 * Ken Duncan, Vancouver, BC Sir Bramston (talk) 01:15, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Sir Bramston, WikiWand is not a WP:WMF project. In other words, no, no connection. 97.126.103.107 (talk) 01:49, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Uploading an image
I have a good friend of mine, I won't say he's technically illiterate, but he can't really be bothered about going through the process of making a flickr account nor using the commons file upload wizard, and I asked if it was okay to upload his photos. He said it's okay, so which creative commons license should I use? CC-BY-2.0? Thanks X-750 List of articles that I have screwed over 23:37, 20 August 2022 (UTC)


 * @X750, just to make sure we're all on the same page - he is going to email permission to Commons for the images to be used, correct? 97.126.103.107 (talk) 00:03, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 * No, I did not mention that to him. X-750 List of articles that I have screwed over 00:09, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Hello, . Only the copyright holder can freely license their photos. It is a legal transaction that cannot be casually delegated to another person. Cullen328 (talk) 00:16, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Sigh... okay I'll get him to mail the VRT. X-750 List of articles that I have screwed over 00:20, 21 August 2022 (UTC)