Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2022 November 1

= November 1 =

Can I use these sources?
Been working on an article about a subject expert and just wanted to know if I could these sources      Thanks. &maltese; Rejoy2003 &maltese;    (contact)   02:57, 1 November 2022 (UTC)


 * No, no, and no. The first is selling the guys book, the second is his own website, and the third is a press release. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:07, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I had a hunch for it that those weren't much reliable as well, ngl. Also here's WP:ELOFFICIAL, it states that When an official website is used as a source to verify a self-published statement in the article text, it should be formatted like any other reference used in the article.  &maltese; Rejoy2003 &maltese;     (contact)   03:40, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * The implication of your question, whether you intended it or not, is "Can I use these sources to prove notability?". Anything the subject or their surrogates control is useless for that purpose (and, by extension, for biographical claims that can sensibly be challenged). —Jéské Couriano  v^&lowbar;^v  a little blue Bori 04:02, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Why would I ask such a question when the person is already notable? I simply asked about those references to use them as sources. Not to prove notability. That's completely a different thing and irrelevant of the discussion.  &maltese; Rejoy2003 &maltese;     (contact)   04:28, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * " . . . when the person is already notable?" – Since you yourself created the article directly in Article space only three days ago and are almost the sole editor, that may still be under question.
 * "Not to prove notability." – That was not evident in your original query, and is the more usual reason for such enquiries, so it was a reasonable assumption.
 * Even in terms of facts rather than notability, admissibility of subject-related sources is heavily dependent on what the sources are to be used for, so in the absence of exact details ("Use source A to verify fact X?") the query is unaswerable.
 * Helpdesk respondents are volunteers donating their time to provide advice to editors on this collaborative project called Wikipedia. Responding to their advice with an apparently combative attitude, and appearing to be trying to wikilawyer (even if that was not your intention), is not likely to encourage them to help you. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.213.189.208 (talk) 11:26, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks to Rejoy2003 for the (lack of) courtesy ping around this. For more context about the sourcing question, I removed these sources .  They were being used to source pretty promotional text like "He is also a popular panelist on TV and web shows hosted mainly in India and globally" and "... Goa Chronicle is one of the prominent globally recognised news portals ..."  Also statements like "In 2021, it got a Rs 100 crore valuation" were sourced to one of the sites, which doesn't mention anything around valuation.  These statements were removed, then added back with primary sources that sometimes didn't actually support the material.  I would strongly encourage Rejoy2003 to take a much closer look at the sources they are using.  There are still a fair number of primary sources in the article, including press releases disguised as churnalism (tag added).  They need to take a more skeptical view of sources, looking at the byline especially to see if it's from a press release agency.  See , ,  - all of these are from NewsVoir which is a press release agency.  This took 20 seconds of research.  If a press release is the only thing supporting a statement, it needs to be seriously questioned if it should remain in the article.  Ravensfire  (talk) 14:20, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks to Rejoy2003 for the (lack of) courtesy ping around this. For more context about the sourcing question, I removed these sources .  They were being used to source pretty promotional text like "He is also a popular panelist on TV and web shows hosted mainly in India and globally" and "... Goa Chronicle is one of the prominent globally recognised news portals ..."  Also statements like "In 2021, it got a Rs 100 crore valuation" were sourced to one of the sites, which doesn't mention anything around valuation.  These statements were removed, then added back with primary sources that sometimes didn't actually support the material.  I would strongly encourage Rejoy2003 to take a much closer look at the sources they are using.  There are still a fair number of primary sources in the article, including press releases disguised as churnalism (tag added).  They need to take a more skeptical view of sources, looking at the byline especially to see if it's from a press release agency.  See , ,  - all of these are from NewsVoir which is a press release agency.  This took 20 seconds of research.  If a press release is the only thing supporting a statement, it needs to be seriously questioned if it should remain in the article.  Ravensfire  (talk) 14:20, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Collaboration
I make an edit to a page, and another user disagrees with my edit. They normally revert it pretty quickly, citing WP:UNDUE, WP:NPOV, or something else. I am prompted by them to establish consensus on the talk page. When I post on the talk page and ping this user, I get no response, and therefore, I cannot establish consensus with the one person who disagrees. After getting no response, guidelines, or advice to reach consensus, I invite the user to make a version of my edit that fits their standards. I am then told that the WP:ONUS is on the editor trying to establish consensus. This is a never-ending loop and it has become very frustrating. I want to collaborate with this user, rather than getting reverted, sent to the talk page, and then getting ignored. It's hard to establish consensus with someone who is not willing to add anything to the main page or tweak anything that is added to the main page. If possible, I would like to keep the other user out of this, so I kindly ask you not to dig into my history. I'm just looking for advice on how to collaborate with a user like this. GeorgeBailey (talk) 03:13, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * If they don’t respond to a good faith effort to start a discussion on the talk page, you’re welcome to revert to change back to your original version. If they revert again, you can revert them and start another discussion. Just don’t revert more than three times in 24 hours. TimTempleton (talk) (cont)  03:20, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * , you could also look at the suggestions in Dispute resolution. TSventon (talk) 09:43, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Reference in an article
My article is listed as a reference but the hyperlink has been replaced by another. How can I update the hyperlink Michael L Hays (talk) 03:35, 1 November 2022 (UTC)


 * @michael l hays: change the  parameter. lettherebedarklight〔晚安 おやすみ〕ping me when replying 04:27, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Fred Catero
Fred just died. His widow and I are trying to update his entry. Every time I edit the entry, I get messages from other wiki "editors" saying that my entries have been removed and the old outdated entry restored. Please someone help me ! Freds Friends (talk) 03:35, 1 November 2022 (UTC)


 * We need a source to confirm his passing. —Jéské Couriano  v^&lowbar;^v  a little blue Bori 04:02, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/legacyremembers/fred-catero-obituary?id=36903207 Freds Friends (talk) 04:09, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Please restore the updates, discography, references and timeline. This is all causing his widow great stress.  Thank you. DR Freds Friends (talk) 04:10, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * @freds friends: no, as it is unsourced and not written for an encyclopedia. lettherebedarklight〔晚安 おやすみ〕ping me when replying 04:31, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * The article was edited to include the information about the subject's death on October 10 and is sourced to an obituary. Unfortunately the more recent information that Freds Friends has attempted to add is extremely verbose, written in a very non-encyclopedic style, and is entirely unsourced (a list of books was added, but none are about the subject and there is no clue as to how each book supports the added information). Freds Friends, I am sorry about the passing of your friend, but information on Wikipedia must be written in accordance with our Manual of Style, and most importantly, every piece of information added must be verifiable; that is, published in a reliable source. You added a vast amount of information without the slightest hint of where that information came from. CodeTalker (talk) 06:46, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Query regarding photo upload
I want to upload IIM Nagpur photo on its Wikipedia page. Have been making efforts to do so multiple times. However, I have encountered problems uploading the photos. Please guide. Thank you. Communication office (talk) 06:13, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Instructions for uploads are at WP:UPIMAGE, but new accounts cannot upload images, please go to Files For Upload. 331dot (talk) 06:25, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Communication office, I'm guessing that you are employed by IIM Nagpur, in their communications office. Please note that:
 * Account names that suggest that they are shared or that they represent some organisation, are forbidden. Please abandon this acount, and create a new one that is personal to you. You do not need to use your real name (I do, but many editors don't), and you may show your affiliation if you wish (eg "Sam at IIS Comms" - that's just an example).
 * If you are in any way employed by IIS and intend to edit articles connected with IIS - even just adding a photo - you must make a formal declaration of your status as a Paid editor - see that link for details.
 * As a paid editor, you should not normally edit an article about your employer directly, but instead should make Edit requests on the article's talk page.
 * Please be aware that IIM Nagpur is not "its article": it is "Wikipedia's article about it". This might seem trivial, but it is important. IIM does not own or control the article, and the article should be a summary of what indepedent sources have published aboout the institute, not what the institute says or wants to say.
 * Before uploading the image, please read the policy on image use. Unless the copyright owner (who will be the photographer unless they have legally granted it to somebody else) licenses the image under CC-BY-SA or similar (which will grant anybody in the world permission to copy or alter the image), it may not be used on Wikipedia.
 * There is a lot to read in what I have just said: I'm afraid that it inevitable. Wikipedia is the encyclopaedia that anybody can edit, but that does not mean that it is necessarily easy and straightforward, especially for those who may not understand how important it is that Wikipedia be neutral and free from Promotion. ColinFine (talk) 10:26, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Ed Kemper
I made a comment before I signed in, and now my ip address is published... Aud28 (talk) 06:40, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Please go to WP:OVERSIGHT to request that it be suppressed. 331dot (talk) 06:41, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

About Translating Istinye University page.
Hello. I want to add language option (english) for İstinye University's page (https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%B0stinye_%C3%9Cniversitesi), but i cant because of my account's permission. What can i do about that? Thank you in advance. İstinye Üniversitesi (talk) 08:48, 1 November 2022 (UTC)


 * @İstinye Üniversitesi: create a draft and submit it when you’re done. lettherebedarklight〔晚安 おやすみ〕ping me when replying 08:54, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Hello, İstinye Üniversitesi. I'm afraid there are several things that you do not understand about Wikipedia.
 * What you are trying to do is not "add a language option for Istinye University's page", but to write an article on English Wikipedia about that University. You may create such an article by translating one from the Turkish Wikipedia, but it must still meet all of English Wikipedia's policies. Most particularly, it must be properly referenced according to English Wikipedia's policies, which may be more restrictive than Turkish Wikipedia's. See WP:Translation for more information.
 * Secondly, your user name suggests that 1) it is a shared account and 2) that it is editing on behalf of the institution. Both of these are forbidden. Please read the detailed reply I gave to another editor two items above on this page, most of which is also relevant to you. ColinFine (talk) 10:37, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Inquiry: Would this be WP:OR?
There's a short film with an article here called Ida Makes A Movie. The problem is that I cannot find a proper source for its airdate, nor can I find the confirmed airdate at all. The date commonly cited for years (September 12, 1979) has never been verified. An official book about the show claims September 20, 1980, but I cannot find any evidence of the film having aired on that date in all the newspaper archive sites I have access to. But that's not the point of this question. I was doing research on Newspapers.com I found an article from Tuesday, December 11, 1979 that claimed it aired "on Saturday", which would make it December 8, 1979. Would it be considered WP:OR to use this source because it doesn't directly state the date and it had to be estimated? Just to play it safe I've removed any date from the page and replaced it with a note. ToQ100gou (talk) 10:18, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * In my view, calculating Dec 8 from the source's date and statement boils down to simple arithmetic, which does not count as OR, but others may differ. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.213.189.208 (talk) 11:33, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * @ToQ100gou WP:CALC specifically says that sort of inference is fine. Mike Turnbull (talk) 12:30, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * @User:Michael D. Turnbull Thanks, just had to be sure. ToQ100gou (talk) 13:27, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * In such a case, I would include a quote of the newspaper in the citation (see WP:FOOTQUOTE), to indicate the exact portion of the text you relied on. Otherwise, someone reviewing the reference might read it quickly, see that no dates are given, and slap a on it.  Tigraan Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 14:48, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

File:20th Century Studios.svg
File:TCFlogo.png was accepted on Commons, so File:20th Century Studios.svg should be moved there with the same license. See also. Thanks, Yann (talk) 11:18, 1 November 2022 (UTC)


 * I've gone ahead and made a BOLD edit to File:20th Century Studios.svg, as it's basically the same file as File:TCFlogo.png except it says Studios instead of "Fox", marking it as suitable for commons. (even if it isn't expired copyright, it's still below the threshold of originality since the 2 files are practically identical save for one word) ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 20:20, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * There's also a in the corner of the Studios image but that's definitely not enough to make it above the threshold of originality, just means it can be marked as trademarked ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 20:21, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Comptox database has moved
Correction - not a wikipedia problem

In a previous version of this post I reported problems accessing links to EPA's comptox database.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CompTox_Chemicals_Dashboard

Turns out this is a problem with accessing that database from Android. This is clearly not a wikipedia problem. Someone more knowledgeable may see something to do about it. If so - great ! - it's beyond my expertise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ctmidgley (talk • contribs) 12:11, 1 November 2022 (UTC)


 * The database seems to be inaccessible, not just from Android. Perhaps we can see whether the problem is temporary or permanent? - David Biddulph (talk) 12:22, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm investigating. The problem seems genuine and is either their servers or something similar to a Wikidata issue mentioned at the foot of wikidata:Property talk:P3117), which was indeed because they had altered their access URLs. Mike Turnbull (talk) 12:27, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * @Ctmidgley All our links, including the DTXSID are now working correctly again. It seems to have been a temporary glitch at the EPA's end. Report back, please, if you continue to see problems. Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:15, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

DOI not working
I am trying to add this source to TRAPPIST-1 but the cite template dropdowns don't recognize the DOI Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 12:47, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * The DOI "10.3847/PSJ/ac68e6" works for me when I enter it in doi. Have you tried entering a cite journal template in the source editor, filling in the fields manually? Did you perhaps mistakenly include "/pdf" when you tried using the dropdown? Deor (talk) 14:00, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * @Jo-Jo Eumerus I'd recommend the Citation expander gadget, which converts doi directly into cite journals or cite books. It gives for that doi. Note that the /pdf bit isn't part of the doi. Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:07, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Seems like it works now. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 14:15, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

category sort key questions.
Over the years, I've tried to check that when an article with "List of" in its name is in a category that starts with "Lists of" there should always be a sort key. For example, List of Gamma Sigma Sigma chapters in Category:Lists of chapters of United States student societies by society. Is there any way to do a query looking for entries that don't?

Also, is there any way in general to include the sort key when viewing a Category? (This would be helpful in diagnosing entries in categories like Category:Pages using infobox organization with unknown parameters.Naraht (talk) 12:48, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * This search finds about 19250 'List of ...' articles that have  without sort keys.
 * This is the same search constrained to . It finds about 70 articles.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 13:52, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * However, it appears that (at least the first one) has a Defaultsort. Is there any way to exclude those which do the right thing using defaultsort?Naraht (talk) 21:38, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Try this search which finds ~4300 articles.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 22:08, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
 * thank you. Wierd that the Prefix doesn't require its argument to be in quotes.Naraht (talk) 13:05, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
 * User:PrimeHunter/Sortkeys.js produces Sort keys on Category:Pages using infobox organization with unknown parameters. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:00, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanx. I'll look to add that tool.Naraht (talk) 21:38, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
 * You already added it in 2019 when I made it for you. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:21, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
 * *D'oh* headslap. Sorry.Naraht (talk) 13:04, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
 * *D'oh* headslap. Sorry.Naraht (talk) 13:04, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Search through all edit histories for profanity
Looking at the UCoC toxicity issue, and I wanted to see how often certain phrases were used. Wakelamp d&#91;@-@&#93;b (talk) 14:42, 1 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Please close. It has to a query. Wakelamp d&#91;@-@&#93;b (talk) 14:49, 1 November 2022 (UTC)


 * I think this would need to be a database dump. If you have the disk space to hold it, and the software to comb through the full database and extract certain text strings, Database download has the information you need.  -- Jayron 32</b> 15:20, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank-you for the reply. Ok - that's really really ..... really ... big. (Although I don't know what the numbers are in terms of of https://dumps.wikimedia.org/enwiki/latest/  Which of the files listed would most likely be the files for article talk, and article revision comments ?  Wakelamp d&#91;@-@&#93;b (talk) 16:10, 1 November 2022 (UTC) Wakelamp d&#91;@-@&#93;b (talk) 16:12, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Jelp
I wwas looking at a page and I think i got hacked necauwd it took me to this code thing and then this alphabet popped up and it made a sound and started typing everything i said. What happened to wikipedia now its on the page 100.42.252.205 (talk) 19:18, 1 November 2022 (UTC)


 * What kind of device are you using? ~  ONUnicorn (Talk&#124;Contribs) problem solving 19:22, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Phone 100.42.252.205 (talk) 19:23, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * This has also been asked at the teahouse. Please do not ask in multiple locations as it may lead to confusing advice. The weird edits have been reverted. Eagleash (talk) 19:25, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you i dont know what was happening at the time that whole editing poopped up when i tried to click read. Sorty for the confision 100.42.252.205 (talk) 19:27, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * You clicked source editing and hit the microphone button Dentsinhere43 is a new Wikipedian. 01:53, 4 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Did it look something like this? If so, you weren't hacked, you just hit the edit source button, probably by mistake. Misclicks are easy on a phone. ~  ONUnicorn (Talk&#124;Contribs) problem solving 20:02, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes it did 100.42.252.205 (talk) 20:05, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * They probably also hit that microphone button which enables speech to text. ― <b style="background:#0d1125;color:#51aeff;padding:1q;border-radius:5q;">Blaze Wolf</b>Talk<sub title="Discord Username" style="margin-left:-22q;">Blaze Wolf#6545 20:10, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Jim Leishman non sports background
I worked with Jim in Cowdenbeath Jobcentre in the late 70s while he was trying to establish his post player carrier in football. I have many fond recollections of how he worked with Jobseekers/Benefit claimants given that most of the local community knew him.

what I don’t know is if this is worth adding to Wikipedia ?

Ann 2A00:23C5:5402:C501:B584:F986:8FBC:8AD3 (talk) 20:33, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Your personal recollections cannot be added to the article. If you can find the information in a published reliable source then it can be added.  RudolfRed (talk) 20:37, 1 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Not unless it got significant press coverage. Your personal recollections do not constitute reliable sources as Wikipedia defines them. -- Orange Mike &#124;  Talk  20:37, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Say something happens to you and you're rendered comatose, dead, or otherwise completely unable to communicate. How are we supposed to verify your recollection then? And this isn't even getting into the fact that memories can play tricks on us.... —<i style="color: #1E90FF;">Jéské Couriano</i>  v^&lowbar;^v  a little blue Bori 00:10, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Is there a guideline on avoiding middle names/initials for disambuguation?
I thought there was a guideline saying that middle initial or middle names should not be used for disambiguation, unless the person is commonly known with that middle initial (like Michael J. Fox). I can't find anything at WP:DAB or MOS:DAB, but I am sure I have read it in the past. Does such a guideline still exist? Specifically, I would like to rename John G. Gorman (also under John Gorman) and it would be nice to site a guideline. Adpete (talk) 23:27, 1 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Never mind, I found it at WP:MIDDLENAME: "Adding given names, or their abbreviations, merely for disambiguation purposes (if that format of the name is not commonly used to refer to the person) is not advised.". Adpete (talk) 23:44, 1 November 2022 (UTC)