Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2023 August 3

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Google quotes Wikipedia
smart speakers (e.g. google) quote Wikipedia frequently. Does google pay you? 2601:199:4181:16F0:780A:D4B:1429:8729 (talk) 00:37, 3 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Google is a company and a website, hardly a speaker. I haven't heard that it pays Wikipedia. -- Hoary (talk) 01:03, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * They are likely referring to a Smart speaker with Google Assistant running on it.  RudolfRed (talk) 01:16, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * We have an article,, which you can read at Google Nest (smart speakers). Cullen328 (talk) 01:19, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * RudolfRed, Cullen328, it's a rum old world. At this rate, there'll be pocket-sized telephones, and flying machines! In the year 2525, perhaps. -- Hoary (talk) 12:00, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia content is available for reuse without payment for any purpose, including commercial use, as long as it is attributed. RudolfRed (talk) 01:15, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * IP editor. I believe that Google have been one of the largest donors to the Wikimedia Foundation in the past and it currently pays for API access at scale: see Wikimedia_Foundation and Wikimedia Enterprise. Mike Turnbull (talk) 13:55, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Amelia Opie
Is ref number 10 Ok? Please fix if able, Thank you 115.70.23.77 (talk) 00:52, 3 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Hello again! "Longman etc" sounds a little casual, but OK. I hazily infer that Paternoster Row was the street in London where Longmans, Green (or whatever the name then was) was based; but this detail seems superfluous. Otherwise it seems OK. (How does it seem otherwise?) Are you going to post another question about the article Amelia Opie; and if so, are you going to title the next thread "Amelia Opie" and thereby make jumping to it considerably more difficult? -- Hoary (talk) 01:02, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Purging test edits
I’ve had a wee bit of an issue trying to get some JavaScript to work properly and in testing it, repeatedly, with increasing frustration, I’ve added a couple hundred edits to my edit count. Is there any way to completely purge the previous versions and lower my count to where it belongs? It’s a couple .js files in my user space that no one else has edited, should I do a copy paste delete?

To be clear, my ultimate issue is that my edit count feels like a lie because it’s padded by js. ~ Argenti Aertheri (Chat?) 01:27, 3 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi, @Argenti Aertheri! The simple answer is: there is no way to reduce your edit count (though see WP:edit count for more details). It's perhaps unfortunate that edit count is commonly used as a proxy for skill or experience, but that's a problem of its own. Don't worry too much about a few hundred "superfluous" edits, it's no big deal; the number is ultimately meaningless without further context. If you want to request deletion for a page in your own userspace, it's most convenient to simply tag it with db-u1, after which an admin should deal with it soon. Shells-shells (talk) 01:53, 3 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The count is not a lie. You are learning how to code and use .js, which is a useful skill here that most editors do not have. Anyone who becomes interested in your editing history will be able to see how you spent your time, but it it really worries you, simply explain what you were doing on the user page. -Arch dude (talk) 01:59, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you, and @Shells-shells, I’d be less annoyed if I hadn't been attempting to make JavaScript make sense since before Wikipedia existed! It's an awful language 😩 ~ Argenti Aertheri (Chat?) 23:14, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Just a suggestion - you could do your testing in your sandbox, then only copy the relevant line/s to the article once you know they are working as intended. I am guessing that edits made in a sandbox do not get counted towards your total ( but could be wrong of course). Tony 1212 (talk) 22:51, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

publication time
I made a wikipedia page about 1 month ago for my Supervisor. Now, I would like to know when it will be published? Is there any way that I can accelerate its publication time? Thanks. Drmohammadimath (talk) 04:22, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Draft:Stefano De Marchi was declined due to a lack of sourcing. The sources seem to be WP:PRIMARY. The specific policy here is Wikipedia:Notability (academics).-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 06:45, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * You might find BOSS useful to read. ColinFine (talk) 16:36, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Hello, . Your draft will never be accepted in its current form, because it is exceptionally poorly referenced, and fails to make a convincing case that this De Marchi is a notable academic. Read a few Good articles about academics to get a sense for what is required. Cullen328 (talk) 08:06, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Disputed head of states
I am working on the 2023 Nigerien coup d'état and I saw that both Mohamed Bazoum and Abdourahamane Tchiani are classified as the incumbent presedent of niger, On the padge List of heads of state of Niger Abdourahamane Tchiani is classified on the current head of state. How should the info box be formatted, can you put both head of states in the Infobox? How are Infobox formatted for disputed heads of states like in Niger? LuxembourgLover (talk) 05:09, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Naming conventions for church buildings
I am certain that there is guidance on naming conventions for articles about church buildings, but can’t remember where I previously found it. Specifically, I’ve two questions. First, I think the preferred approach is, for example, “St Stephen’s Church, Ambridge”, rather than “Church of St Stephen, Ambridge”. Second, with regard to Roman Catholic Churches, would we use, “Roman Catholic Church of Our Lady of Fatima, Harlow” or “Our Lady of Fatima’s Church, Harlow”, “Our Lady of Fatima’s Roman Catholic Church, Harlow” or what? Looking at a spread of English RC church articles suggests there are a number of approaches, but I was wondering if there is a “preferred” convention? Any advice appreciated. KJP1 (talk) 08:02, 3 August 2023 (UTC)


 * I don't think there is a preferred convention, but I would normally use the form of your first example since that is what people are most likely to search for. If in doubt check the church's website and/or Google maps and the supplied reliable sources for the official or preferred style. Shantavira|feed me 10:51, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * WP:COMMONNAME would trump any individual naming convention.  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 11:13, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks both. The church itself uses Our Lady of Fatima RC Church, while Historic England prefers Roman Catholic Church of Our Lady of Fatima. Our own collection of Essex RC articles, appears to favour Our Lady of X church, so I'll go with that. It can always be moved. Thanks again. KJP1 (talk) 12:10, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Church naming conventions are going to vary by country – note Santa Croce, Florence, Sainte-Trinité, Paris, etc. – but it's clearly Britain we're talking about here. I don't think adding the name of denomination is the usual practice, though with some Nonconformist churches I suppose the WP:COMMONNAME will include the denomination. RC church dedications in Britain are often very long and adding the words "Roman Catholic" as well wouldn't be very WP:CONCISE! There might even be something to be said for omitting the word "Church" for those long-winded ones, as with the Italian and French examples above, and as Our Lady of Grace and St Teresa of Avila (Chingford) already does. The general tendency to use "St Stephen's Church, Ambridge" for British churches does make it unclear how to handle a lot of RC dedications, as "Church of Our Lady of Fatima, Harlow" is perhaps the best prose style. Then again, perhaps "Our Lady of Fatima Church" is no worse than "Holy Trinity Church" (and I don't object to the title you've chosen for Our Lady of Fatima Church, Harlow). Ham II (talk) 18:55, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The largest number of churches in Britain that are written about will be the various established churches (CofE in England, Presbyterian in Scotland and Church in Wales which is technically not established). WP:COMMONNAME would suggest for these denominations omitting an explicit denomination.  Historically many of the Free Churches eschewed dedications, so for instance Chingford United Reformed Church is pretty clear. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 21:00, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Removal of search queries tool
What are the tools to take entries in references from url=https://books.google.com/books?id=cDPbnS8PjcMC&q=kimball+%22delta+chi%22 to url=https://books.google.com/books?id=cDPbnS8PjcMC For google books, at least, that is the removal of either q= or dq= arguments. I've seen it done before, but I can't remember by which tool. Is this something that can be set for AutoWikiBrowser?:( Naraht (talk) 15:33, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Why are you hoping to remove the &q= ? In many cases the original editor has deliberately included search queries such as the one you quote, in order to guide the interested reader to the exact phrase on a particular page or pages. In any case, it only takes a single click to 'Clear search'. The bare &id= is generally much less helpful, as it just lands you at the title page or front cover. The alternative is to include a page number as in &pg=PAxxx, but (without knowing exactly which article you are working on) I would suggest it would be a retrograde step in may cases. MinorProphet (talk) 21:11, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

"List of colors by shade" colors do not load on the page.
The page "List of colors by shade" loads, but all the color boxes are white. Clicking on an individual color hyperlink loads correctly in color, but the colors on the main page remain white. How can I get to the colorizede main page? Thank you FMVBeachbum (talk) 16:21, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * List of colors by shade works correctly for me. To my surprise, the colours are not sorted by shade but alphabetically within each section. Maproom (talk) 17:18, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Do you see a difference here:
 *   background:#1E90FF
 *   background-color:#1E90FF
 * Both are the same shade of blue to me. Do you have any color-changing features like a dark mode in your browser or Wikipedia account? PrimeHunter (talk) 19:42, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Why does wikipedia now have CAPTCHA
Why does wikipedia now have a CAPTCHA? 71.169.164.156 (talk) 16:24, 3 August 2023 (UTC)


 * There's been an ongoing mass attack via proxies. You can create an account to bypass the restriction if you like. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 16:27, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Good to know thank you so much. 71.169.164.156 (talk) 16:36, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * For context on why EmergencyCAPTCHA is here, see WP:ANI. 2001:448A:3070:D945:9116:3C5C:80F7:837F (talk) 06:13, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Proof from user and edit - Question
Dear Wikipedia-Community,

my name is Robert and I use Wikipedia often. I'm new in this community and never edited something or acted together with you.

I wanted to look something on Wikipedia and found something that could fit to that what I wanted to know. But what I found on Wikipedia is not that what I wanted to know because it is not especially stands there like it is missing. What I think that is missing and what could fit should maybe be written on Wikipedia.

I would edit the page on Wikipedia but I'm not 100% sure that the information that is missing would be the truth.

So I want to ask you for help to proof that information what I want to edit on Wikipedia before I edit it and maybe need a guide how to edit this Wikipedia page.

Is this support possibel?

Friendly regards, Robert RoMoS38 (talk) 18:49, 3 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Welcome Robert! I've left a message on your talk with some information on how to get started with editing. The first link is a tutorial that you can complete to give you the basics on editing on Wikipedia. A few things to keep in mind:
 * Additions to Wikipedia should be WP:CITED by WP:Reliable sources.
 * WP:Assume good faith; because you are new, your edits may face more scrutiny than that of more experienced editors. We're all working towards a better encyclopedia, we'll help when we can.
 * Be sure to leave an edit summary so that we are able to understand why you make some edits and to prevent miscommunication.
 * I hope you enjoy your stay! No need to type your name at the end of each post, just remember to type four tildes and your post will be automagically signed like this: -  AquilaFasciata (talk &#124; contribs) 19:00, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Hello Aquila,
 * I like to thank you for your kind words and your help :-)
 * I will read this guide and look if I can make a good work.
 * That information I wanted to edit is maybe not correct and now I do not want edit this anymore but maybe I will edit something in the future. Friendly regards, RoMoS38 (talk) 08:13, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Vin Scully - Wikipedia
The wrong year of death was reported. 216.111.202.221 (talk) 19:29, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The article Vin_Scully says 2022, per CNN.  What error are you seeing?  RudolfRed (talk) 19:34, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * He died 2 August 2022. The poster probably saw a mention on the anniversary of his death like and incorrectly thought he had just died. Our work would be a lot easier if posters actually said what they think is wrong. PrimeHunter (talk) 02:43, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

error in content
You failed to reference Motiva in your largest refineries at:

List of oil refineries

Further down the page you reference:

Port Arthur Refinery (Motiva Enterprises), Port Arthur, 636,500 bbl/d (101,200 m3/d) 2600:1700:1D6F:5410:117E:3AF0:FE93:21A4 (talk) 20:27, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * If you have suggestions to improve an article, you may start a discussion on that article's talk page. RudolfRed (talk) 20:29, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Question on submission
My article is ready and has been written in plain Word. How can I submit it to Wikipedia? Aut1945 (talk) 21:21, 3 August 2023 (UTC)


 * @Aut1945 You also pasted this identical question in at the Teahouse. We'll deal with it there. In future, do not waste volunteer effort by posting in more than one forum at a time. Thank you. Nick Moyes (talk) 21:26, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * You can use the WP:AFC process and submit for review. Theroadislong (talk) 21:29, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Nick. This is the first time I am considering submiting an article to Wikipedia, so I got sort of confused with so many instructions to follow. Aut1945 (talk) 21:32, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Trouble editing an existing page
Page: Jonathan Frid

I am trying to edit - mostly add information with links and citations - for the first time.


 * 1) I can't see how to change from Edit Source to Visual Editor:  I find the Edit Source format to be very confusing.  How do I change it?  Once I clicked on "Edit Source" in the dropdown menu that listed both, there is no longer a dropdown menu, it just says Edit Source.
 * 2) I've tried to add a paragraph twice and "publish" it.  When I go back to "read" it has disappeared and is noted as "reverted." Why?  How do I keep my added text in the page?
 * 3) I've tried several times to copy an existing citation into my new paragraph.  It is [7].  When I do so, it changes it to a [6] and tells me the citation can't be found/verified, even though when I click on it under "read" it works - so I cancelled the change.
 * 4) I can't figure out how to add a link to items in my new text like "dyslexia", without it showing a link symbol as well as blue underlined text.  The existing linked items in the page don't show the link symbol, just blue underlined text.

I've read the FAQs and help text, which didn't help. Karamel patti (talk) 22:00, 3 August 2023 (UTC)


 * What changes based on what sources are you helping Mr. Frid's former partner make? Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 22:06, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Added descriptions of elements of his career not covered in the existing page, with several sources such as the documentary Dark Shadows and Beyond - the Jonathan Frid Story, and Malia Howard's book Jonathan Frid - An Actor's Curious Journey, as well as some of the existing references in the article that include validation of the new text. Karamel patti (talk) 22:18, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Karamel patti: I've tried to add a paragraph twice and "publish" it. When I go back to "read" it has disappeared and is noted as "reverted." Why? How do I keep my added text in the page? Your edits were reverted by another editor because they weren't cited to a reliable source. I can't figure out how to add a link to items in my new text like "dyslexia", without it showing a link symbol as well as blue underlined text. The existing linked items in the page don't show the link symbol, just blue underlined text. This is because you are adding in the full URL instead of using wikilinks. For example, to get dyslexia, you'd type, and not  . ETA: single brackets for external links in code. — Tenryuu 🐲  ( 💬 • 📝 ) 02:30, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I added the text and then published, directly after that I was following up to add links and citations about 60 seconds later, when I saw that my text had already disappeared.  I was trying to add the links and citations separately because I'm still trying to figure out how to do it correctly.  Apparently I need to do everything all at once and then publish, which I did not realize. Seems harsh to not even have a few minutes to work on something before it's deleted by someone else. Karamel patti (talk) 03:19, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
 * You can always access it in the page history, and work on it from there; clicking on the time and date, then going to the edit button allows you to edit an old version of the page. Editors don't know if you're going to come back and cite your sources or not; there's many unsourced edits a day, and it'd be easy for them to slip through the cracks if left unchecked. (I see it as harsh to revert an edit that's unproblematic outside of not providing sources without making an attempt to find sources yourself, but other editors will be quicker to revert.) Skarmory   (talk •   contribs)  06:31, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much, I'll try that. Good to know the context, I'll get acclimated to "Wikiworld."
 * I put "in use" at the top of the page, per Wiki instructions, while I was working on it, but it was also deleted by someone. Just checking - isn't this what I'm supposed to do? Karamel patti (talk) 01:16, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The book Jonathan Frid - An Actor's Curious Journey is self-published on Lulu.com, and is therefore not a reliable source for use on Wikipedia. Cullen328 (talk) 08:21, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The book was written by a woman who was invited by Jonathan Frid, in his later years, to go through his entire personal archive in person at his home and write this summary of his career from that material. Jonathan Frid himself reviewed the contents of the book with Malia Howard and had her edit portions of the text.  I can have Mr. Frid's former business associate, who has direct personal knowledge of this, verify.  I can also have Mr. Frid's family, who met with Ms. Howard during her research at Mr. Frid's house, verify.  I can also have Ms. Howard herself verify.  If this isn't a reliable source I do not know what else possibly could be - a newspaper article where some reporter interpreted or misinterprested their interview with Mr. Frid secondhand?   Karamel patti (talk) 15:07, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Jonathan Frid himself reviewed the contents of the book with Malia Howard and had her edit portions of the text. That would make the source not independent and lower its appropriateness as a source, as the subject had a hand in altering it. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 16:05, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, I have a question about source material: Mr. Frid's former business partner inherited a substantial amount of his p0ersonal career archives.  The material includes items such as videos of television interviews, tapes of radio interviews, playbills and other material that has not been digitized, so not linkable as a source.  Can any of this material be used as a source, and if so, how? Karamel patti (talk) 16:00, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Re. my source material question: Can a copy (photo or scan) of a paper document like a playbill or a personal letter (the business partner also has personal letters of Mr. Frid's) be sent to an editor to review to verify it's reliability, or does that material have to be digitized and somehow be linkable in the Wiki page itself? Karamel patti (talk) 16:04, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * None of those would be suitable apart from a "a newspaper article" but not if it was an interview. Theroadislong (talk) 16:07, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok, thank you for your help. Karamel patti (talk) 18:16, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * So generally, if I find a photocopy of a newspaper article (for example), but that article can't be found anymore on the internet/the newspaper itself to be able to be linked digitally, can that article be used? If so, how? Karamel patti (talk) 18:21, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * One last question, I think, in this thread: When an editor removed my edit of an existing sentence, one of the citations that already existed in the existing sentence also disappeared, and disappeared in the References section as well.  I'm assuming that the editor also removed that existing citation, perhaps accidentally?  The existing page also cited that reference in a couple of other locations in the page, and now those locations say 'citation needed' instead.  Can that citation be reinstated in the existing page, or was it removed on purpose?  The citations was to this:  https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0294847/bio/?ref_=nm_ov_bio_sm  Karamel patti (talk) 18:35, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * IMDb is not considered to be a reliable source by Wikipedia's standards. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 19:10, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Karamel patti (talk) 19:15, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Can the originator of that citation be contacted to tell them that one of their citations has been removed so that they can work on finding a new citation? Karamel patti (talk) 19:20, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Subjects that meet GNG but are news-y? (Nigel Farage Coutts bank scandal)
Hi, hope you're well. I just wanted a second opinion on Nigel Farage Coutts bank scandal. Considering it's been covered in-depth by BBC, Reuters, and Sky News (UK), the event meets WP:GNG. However, I'm wondering: should a [standalone] article should even exist? I'm looking mainly at WP:NOTNEWS here. Please feel free to let me know if I need to clarify my question. Thank you! Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 22:03, 3 August 2023 (UTC)


 * GNG requires secondary sources, but news articles on an event while it's developing are primary sources. Events are more broadly covered by WP:NEVENTS, which explicitly says that a brief burst of news coverage is not sufficient for notability. That's what makes the difference between a news story (disallowed per WP:NOTNEWS) and a historical event of encyclopedic interest. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 00:48, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks! It does seem a bit WP:TOOSOON. I'm wondering if there's a good WP:BLAR target, from which it can be spun out if the event does turn out to meet NEVENTS. Maybe a short entry at List of corporate collapses and scandals the redirect pointing to a visible anchor on the list? Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 02:50, 4 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Rotideypoc41352, rather than a "summery closure notice", perhaps a "summary closure notice". Isn't "scandal" exaggerating it? ("Squabble"?, "row"?) I mean, the bank wanted to close one account but offered him a different kind of account. Maybe a slow news month in Britain. -- Hoary (talk) 05:18, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed. slow news month is exactly why I'm wondering if the standalone article should exist at all, if you get my drift? I just didn't want to ask for consensus if, like, my idea were trout levels of silly. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 10:33, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Rotideypoc41352 Given that the events led inter alia to Dame Alison Rose being removed as the boss of NatWest after, allegedly, pressure being exerted by senior UK politicians, this is not evidence of a "slow news month" but of a major story: although exactly how Wikipedia should cover it is certainly debatable. It is much more interesting to me than the latest trumpet. Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:39, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
 * exactly how Wikipedia should cover it is certainly debatable Yeah. Does a summary of events at Rose's article suffice? Or is this going to have news coverage over a longer period of time and meet WP:NEVENTS? Given the universe's sense of humor, if I take this to AfD now, the discussion will get relisted thrice, and by the end of the month, the event will have met NEVENTS, hahaha. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 11:06, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Hoary – "the bank wanted to close one account but offered him a different kind of account", not quite. Coutts & Co operate independently of the parent organisation and concentrate on people with serious wealth to manage.  Farage's account was closed on the basis that they didn't like his politics.  Sure NatWest offered him an account, but it is a bit like a leasing company taking away a Roll-Royce and saying a Honda civic will do "for the likes of you".  The key point is that (despite initial claims) the calculated insult was entirely due to politics and not due to business or financial concerns. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 11:15, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Farage (man of the people) has "serious wealth", eh? I never would have guessed. -- Hoary (talk) 12:01, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
 * "The relationship has been below commercial criteria for some time and upon review of Nigel's past public profile and connections, the perceived risks for the future weighed against the benefit of retention the decision was taken to exit upon repayment of an existing mortgage." I assume that they don't kick everyone out the second they fall below the threshold. So clearly politics played an important role, but apparently he really did not meet the criteria any more. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 20:53, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I think the "scandal" is not that they cancelled his account, but the way it was handled (in particular regarding the media). The CEO of the bank stepping down is what makes this more than a storm in a teacup. That being said I am not sure it's not WP:TOOSOON. But I would wait a while before nominating, just to avoid the scenario pictured by Rotideypoc41352 where the AfD discussion takes so long that at the end it is notable. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 20:59, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your input. I'll wait and see, then. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 22:25, 4 August 2023 (UTC)