Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2023 March 27

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List of uncategorized redirects
I've been adding rcats to a few templates and I'm wondering if there's a category for redirects with no rcats added. I know of Category:Miscellaneous redirects but that's for redirects that have Template:Rcat shell with no parameters. Material Works  ping me! 01:14, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * There's a discussion about this at Wikipedia talk:Special:UncategorizedPages, and a link to a database query listing one million redirects that were uncategorized in 2019. I spot-checked a few on the first page of the results, and they were all still without categories. So that list should give you plenty to work with. -- John of Reading (talk) 07:07, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

How Fork an Essay or Article and preserve history?
Aware that POV-fork is forbidden for mainspace articles, is it permitted for Essays? It seems we have many that directly contradict each other, or that argue opposite opinions.

I wish to take a neglected essay whose author left the project and fork it into a related but noticeably different thesis. Rather than start a whole new essay, I'd rather keep the history. How to do this?

Also in mainspace this may be necessary where an article has grown too big and needs to be split two or more smaller topics.

Regards, Jaredscribe (talk) 03:01, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * If the essay is not being used for anything, you can continue maintaining the essay where it is, or move it to a new name. Either way retains the history. Otherwise you can reference the original essay somewhow, like in a "See also" section, for attribution. ~Anachronist (talk) 05:08, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I've tried maintaining the essay, but since others are using its original thesis, it would be better to fork, in order to make the divergent opinions clear.
 * I'm rewriting as a separate essay, and giving attribution, but it would be nice to have the history and talk archives.
 * There should also be a way to preserve history for mainspace articles that get too big and need to be split. No? Jaredscribe (talk) 18:35, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @Jaredscribe Reusing content is perfectly valid with attribution. See WP:REUSE, and templates like Copied from. It is not needed here, but in article mainspace, sometimes complex merges require Requests for history merge ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 13:04, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
 * FYI, the forked essay is Draft:Wikipedia:Competence is desired
 * I welcome discussion on the talk page, and WP:Bold improvements to the diction and tone of the essay.
 * If you disagree with the basic thesis, then consider arguing your point by contributing to WP:Competence is required instead. Jaredscribe (talk) 18:06, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Move an AfD article from mainspace to draft?
I have an article that was published too early, and now its in AfD.

Can I withdraw the article, put in draftspace, and publish it in a few months, years, or whenever I get more reliable sources to establish independent notability?

Jaredscribe (talk) 03:03, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi You can propose that the article be draftified in the AFD discussion, but you probably shouldn't unilaterlly do so yourself now that the article is being discussed per WP:AFDTODRAFT. "Draftification" is sometimes an alternative to outright deletion, but usually only when the prospects for the draft someday becoming a viable article are considered to be fairly high. The draft namespace is not really a place for storing content that has no realistic chance of ever becoming an article. If you propose "draftification" as an alternative to deletion, and the consensus agrees with you, then that's what will happen. If not, then the draft will just end up being deleted. -- Marchjuly (talk) 03:16, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * When sources become available, the deleted article can be restored to draft space for improvement. You would simply ask the deleting admin to restore it to draft space, or send you the wikisource code for you to create a new draft. ~Anachronist (talk) 05:28, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @Jaredscribe Or you could copy/paste the wikicode out now to store somewhere on your own device. Then you wouldn't have to ask anyone but could just start over and expand that when you were ready. Mike Turnbull (talk) 12:03, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * ok thanks, Jaredscribe (talk) 18:07, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Athlete
How to add an athlete on Wikipedia Mangoisthebest (talk) 05:24, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * See WP:YFA and WP:AFC for guidance. ~Anachronist (talk) 05:28, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * , please also read Notability (sports). Cullen328 (talk) 07:13, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Edit
Good morning. Is there an administrator who would like to correct this word on the Israel page?: "Israel,"; the comma should be placed outside the quotation marks. Non-administrator users may not edit this page. JackkBrown (talk) 09:06, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * you can make an edit request on Talk:Israel. See . You have to be more specific when making your request though, there are at least two occurences of Israel, in that article. Victor Schmidt (talk) 10:10, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * That seems to be a misunderstanding; there was only one with the comma inside quotes, as described. ◅ Sebastian 10:20, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Done. Since you are an experienced editor, and since this is the help desk, allow me to add that the suggested process in such cases per WP:FULL is “proposing them on its talk page, using the template if necessary to gain attention.” (Maybe that should be mentioned in the hat note.) ◅ Sebastian 10:17, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @SebastianHelm: I believe @Victor Schmidt was correct when he stated that is the proper template for @JackkBrown to use for an article.  GoingBatty (talk) 14:12, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @JackkBrown Actually,  non-administrators who have "extended confirmed" status can edit the page.  But, it's easy to get blocked when editing "touchy" topics; I generally stay away from them, even though I (a non-administrator) could edit the page if I wanted to. David10244 (talk) 07:48, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

What to do about unsourced pronunciations?
Many articles, such as Xi Jinping begin with unsourced pronunciations. While last year, in reply to I_want_to_add_pronunciation the consensus was that WP:RS applies, this is rarely followed in practice - in particular, when dealing with unofficial makeshift pronunciations of foreign names, such as in the case of Xi Jinping. Should those unsourced pronunciations be removed, then? I can see some use in them, since it is certainly better to pronounce “Xi” [ʃiː] rather than something like [ksaɪ].
 * I suspect WP:RS applies only in theory. If you see one that you believe is wrong, remove it. If you aren't challenged, then there is no problem. If it isn't sourced, but seems right, then there is also no problem. Gah4 (talk) 11:52, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Gah4. I agree with your suspicion. However, the term your reply hinges on seems to be “wrong”. As long as we don't have a source, that remains a personal judgment call. To my ears, the given pronunciation is clearly “wrong”, but the right one requires sounds that are not used in spoken English, and as I said, it's still better than some other alternatives, which is part of why I'm asking. That said, I now realize that it's less of a Help desk question, but rather a policy related one, so it may be better to move it to Village pump (policy). ◅ Sebastian 12:10, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Reminds me of TeX, which many also don't know how to pronounce. I suspect, though, that it is even worse. Many (most?) don't know IPA well enough to know. There was someone on late night TV a few days ago, who learned to read young, and so learned many words without knowing how to pronounce them. The only one I remember from when I was young, is hysteresis, which I pronounced wrong for a long time. And I suspect for many, there is just close enough. Also, note that IPA only works if you know how to pronounce the sample words. Gah4 (talk) 13:19, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Reminds me of TeX, which many also don't know how to pronounce. I suspect, though, that it is even worse. Many (most?) don't know IPA well enough to know. There was someone on late night TV a few days ago, who learned to read young, and so learned many words without knowing how to pronounce them. The only one I remember from when I was young, is hysteresis, which I pronounced wrong for a long time. And I suspect for many, there is just close enough. Also, note that IPA only works if you know how to pronounce the sample words. Gah4 (talk) 13:19, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Related previous questions: ]] (2019): Answer refers to MOS:LEADLANG, which says nothing explicitly about pronunciation. ◅ Sebastian 10:41, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * How_do_I_go_about_adding_IPA_pronunciations_to_Wikipedia? (2009): “I've not been able to find a page on the conventions for IPA notation.”
 * Pronunciation (2019): No reply to question about policy.
 * [[Wikipedia:Help_desk/Archives/2019_February_20#What_is_.28or_should_be.29_the_policy_regarding_spellings.2C_pronunciations_and_foreign_names_in_the_first_sentance_of_an_article.3F|What_is_.28or_should_be.29_the_policy_regarding_spellings.2C_pronunciations_and_foreign_names_in_the_first_sentance_of_an_article.3F

The above discussion reminded me of eine kleine Nachtmusik, which I've heard pronounced “Nacktmusik” even by educated people. But that would mean "naked music"! So I looked up that article - and found a good solution there: Use a footnote. So I did the same for Mr Xi, which resolves this question. ◅ Sebastian 12:50, 27 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Here’s a very funny but absolutely untranslatable oral French pun.
 * A duchess invites a famous music critic for dinner. The duchess's daughter sings some Schubert. The duchess and the critic then exchange words: "Comment trouvez-vous que ma fille a chanté ce [lje]?" "Comme un [pi:d]!"
 * The duchess is asking the composer how her daughter sang the lied, but she mispronounces the German word as [lje] instead of [li:d]. The critic replies something incomprehensible due to his (voluntary) mispronounciation of "pied" (foot) in the opposite direction ([pi:d] instead of [pje]). Presumably the duchess does not understand, although more educated listeners might have picked off the duchess’s mistake and look for a spoonerism. The actual sentence is rather offensive ("comme un pied": lit. "like a foot" i.e. very poorly, especially in the context of singing - you would never give such direct feedback to a close friend, let alone to your hostess).
 * Tigraan Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 11:50, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Help restoring edits
Hello,

I have done some edits to this page Clare McGlynn but another user @AlexBalder01 has taken them down saying my changes were not constructive. I have only updated the information regarding the scholar's most recent work (I am her research assistant). I understand there was a copuright issue with a photo but can you please leave the edits I made to the text?

Thanks in advance BelMattC (talk) 14:48, 27 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Since 2015, the photo is on the page. How many years have passed, then you didn't say there was a copyright issue with the photo, are you saying it now? AlexBalder01 (talk) 14:58, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? I'm talking about the new photo I have tried to upload which has been rejected. I have no idea about the photo from 8 years ago.
 * I want the edits I made back because the information that is currently on the page is no longer accurate. BelMattC (talk) 15:01, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * But you're removing the photo from 8 years ago. AlexBalder01 (talk) 15:05, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Only because the new one got rejected. Go on and leave the old photo until I contact my professor and get another one but leave my edits BelMattC (talk) 15:06, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * How do we know he's a research assistant? AlexBalder01 (talk) 15:01, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Well for starters you could bother checking the references in the edits I made instead of just deleting them without any reasonable argument other than "it's not cosntructive". BelMattC (talk) 15:05, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @BelMattC & @AlexBalder01: The best place for a civil conversation would be Talk:Clare McGlynn, so that other editors interested in the article can also participate. GoingBatty (talk) 15:06, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @BelMattC, since you have a conflict of interest, please read and comply with WP:COI. If you are actually being paid by the subject as their research assistant, WP:PAID applies instead. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 15:07, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * This matter is being resolved at Talk:Clare McGlynn. I don't believe further attention is required here. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 15:10, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Sandbox documentation update
I watch About the sandbox, which used to contain this text: "For easy access, there is a link labeled "sandbox" at the top right of every page between the Talk and Preferences links." However, at this talk page thread, a user pointed out that this is not applicable to Vector 2022. I've commented out the text for now because, as a screen reader user, I'm in no position at all to help out here. Could someone here update the offending text? Thanks! Graham 87 15:00, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I have added "on a user icon menu or ...". PrimeHunter (talk) 15:14, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * If I'd known earlier about this technical village pump thread, I wouldn't have started this one. Graham 87 05:06, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Help with formatting
Hey. On my user page, I am trying to format my page so that a template can show up on the left and userboxes can show up on the right, using   and   . I want the userboxes to be placed all the way to the right, but it isn't working. I also tried to nest the userbox div inside the template div, and to not include a div for the userboxes at all, but neither of these worked. I really don't know what to do, and I would appreciate any help. Cessaune  [ talk ]   15:31, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The User page design center is defunct as an active project, but there are dozens of help pages there. Perhaps browsing through there will help you find out how to do what you want to do.  -- Jayron 32 15:50, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Hello Cess! I might be able to help you. Would you mind telling me what the template you want to be placed on the left is? ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 19:25, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Cessaune  [ talk ]   19:26, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅, the issue was the template wasn't even placed inside the div. If you want all the userboxes to the right and not next to each other then I'll just have to place them in individual divs. ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 19:31, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Is there a way to have them align to the opposite side of the image? Like, directly to the right of the image? Thanks for your help. Cessaune   [ talk ]   19:34, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Yep. That would be placing each userbox in its own div because the image is being pushed down so all the userboxes can be displayed next to each other inline on the right side. I'll go ahead and do that now. ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 19:35, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I was wrong. The solution was to add a line break after the first and second userboxes so that they would go underneath each other. I don't know why I htought placing them in their own divs would work as divs function horizontally and don't automatically add a line break. ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 19:39, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your help! This is exactly what I wanted. Cessaune   [ talk ]   19:45, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * No problem! If you need help with anything else regarding things that have to do with HTML and CSS feel free to ask me. ― Blaze Wolf</b>Talk<sub title="Discord Username" style="margin-left:-22q;">Blaze Wolf#6545 19:52, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

lock? block?
Hello! Something I've always been confused about has been the difference between a global lock and a global block. Both seem to do the same thing so I'm not exactly sure which term is correct. ― <b style="background:#0d1125;color:#51aeff;padding:1q;border-radius:5q;">Blaze Wolf</b>Talk<sub title="Discord Username" style="margin-left:-22q;">Blaze Wolf#6545 19:23, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Actually, I have asked this question to a candidate during the most recent steward election, at meta:Stewards/Elections 2023/Questions. Adapting from the reply there, a global block can only be done to IP adresses, do not affect meta, do not prevent people using that IP from reading Wikipedia, and has an error message that tells you pretty exactly what happened and for what reason, and allows fine-tuning of block settings (e.g. wether to block anonymous users, allow account creation or talkpage access). A global lock on the other hand applies only to registered users, will automatically end any active login session for the account and disallow creating new ones (which means its effectively enforcing an upper limit of zero concurrent login sessions), always affects all Wikimedia Wikis, does not allow fine-tuning (I believe the settings are effectively autoblock disabled, cannot edit own talkpage, email disabled, though the last two are a consequence of not allowing login sessions), and the error message you get when logging in does not tell you the lock reason, nor is the lock reason displayed on Special:CentralAuth or Special:Contributions unless you visit that account's version of these two on meta. Victor Schmidt (talk) 20:18, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Interesting. I was not aware that it would not tell you the reason if you were locked. I wonder if there's a reason for that... ― <b style="background:#0d1125;color:#51aeff;padding:1q;border-radius:5q;">Blaze Wolf</b>Talk<sub title="Discord Username" style="margin-left:-22q;">Blaze Wolf#6545 21:51, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I think you can look at locks as an early crude interim hack, or charitably a blunt tool, until global blocks one day get implemented for accounts. See for example T17294 which is a 15-year old bug. Don't hold your breath.. -- zzuuzz (talk) 22:16, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Quoting in Book
I'm working on a book that will feature about 15 chapters, and each chapter will have an average of about four fairly extensive quotes from Wikipedia articles. Is it sufficient to display the Creative Commons license on a Credits page, or do I have to paste the license in every block of text that I quote?

Thank you. WickedBear (talk) 20:27, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You must attribute each quote to the appropriate specific place in Wikipedia separately (in a footnote, perhaps). Each attribution could reference the license but does not need to include the text of the license in full. Then, place a single instance of the full text of the license in an appendix. However, at some point the amount of Wikipedia material becomes so large that your book as a whole becomes a "derivative work". At that point, you will need to license the entire book under CC-BY-SA. I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know when that point is reached. -Arch dude (talk) 20:44, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you. WickedBear (talk) 20:48, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @WickedBear: Hi there! You may find the information at Citing Wikipedia helpful.  GoingBatty (talk) 14:15, 28 March 2023 (UTC)