Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2023 November 7

__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__ = November 7 =

Using shortened footnotes for web sources
I am using shortened footnotes because I like the ideas of keeping the edit clean and having all the sources together at the end of the article. However, the sfn help describes only books. What can I do to list a web page with the rest? The problem might also exist for other media such as newspaper articles. Humphrey Tribble (talk) 01:50, 7 November 2023 (UTC)


 * You can use shortened footnote templates on any kind of source. If there's no author attributed, or no publication date, you can set the ref parameter in the full citation to whatever you want to cite the source as when calling the sfn template. sfnref or harvid (passed to ref) will even create the proper variable name so you don't have to know what they're called in the code backend. Folly Mox (talk) 01:54, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Got it, thank you. This can be closed. Humphrey Tribble (talk) 03:04, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Update to Marguerite S. Church page
Hello.

I am an author of a biography about Marguerite Stitt Church.

1) Her wiki page describes her as Marguerite S. Church, though she never went by that name. She always went by "Marguerite Stitt Church". How can I change the title of the page to reflect the name she used?

2) I'd like to add a link to the biography I wrote about Marguerite. It's called "Politics, Partnerships, & Power: The Lives of Ralph E. and Marguerite Stitt Church" (Master Wings Publishing, December 19, 2023). https://www.amazon.com/Politics-Partnerships-Power-Marguerite-Church/dp/B0BRYPJ4W8/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2B6N9CLB4R06L&keywords=politics+partnerships+and+power&qid=1699322386&sprefix=politics+partner%2Caps%2C90&sr=8-1

The book is co-authored by Christine Wolf and Jay Pridmore

Thank you for your help. Tinywolf1 (talk) 02:00, 7 November 2023 (UTC)


 * @Tinywolf1: Hi there! To assure other editors that you're not just here to promote your book, I suggest you post your suggestions on the article's talk page - Talk:Marguerite S. Church, and let those without any conflict of interest weigh in.  Thanks! GoingBatty (talk) 02:52, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks so much. First time here to make Wiki edits. I appreciate the guidance. Will do! Tinywolf1 (talk) 03:13, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Fix the the Closing Ceremony Seoul 1988 Olympics
I need your help to fix the reference for the 1988 Closing Ceremony for the Seoul Olympics. 108.21.67.83 (talk) 02:16, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't see any reference errors at 1988_Summer_Olympics_closing_ceremony. Please provide more details about what problem you are seeing.  RudolfRed (talk) 02:41, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * United Press International. I just did. I find the Closing Ceremony for Seoul 1988 Olympics on October 2, 1988. The last day for the Games of XXIV Olympiad. 108.21.67.83 (talk) 02:43, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Looks like the reference has been fixed by another user. 🛧 Midori No Sora♪ 🛪 ( ☁＝☁＝✈  ) 02:46, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

How can I get attention to an article that needs a major rewrite or edit?
Hello, I'm asking this question regarding the article Astroworld Festival crowd crush - Wikipedia. The article contains many, many grammatical errors, and dozens upon dozens of run-on sentences. The entire article is hard to read, and is extremely long, way longer than any article pertaining to a specific event should be, and in general, I believe it needs either a huge edit or series of edits, or an entire rewrite altogether. I know this more-of fits the article's talk page, however, I think this is quite a big issue that needs to be addressed, and I don't think posting on the talk page will garner enough attention. How can I get attention to this article to get the article fixed up? (P.S., I did make some grammar checks to the article, but it's simply too much for just me to try to fix it all up. Plus, some sentences and sections are so unconcise that I can barely understand what is trying to be said.) SonOfYoutubers (talk) 02:52, 7 November 2023 (UTC)


 * @SonOfYoutubers: Hi there! You could add the copy edit template inside the multiple issues template.  Or, you could also ask the Guild of Copy Editors to clean it up.  GoingBatty (talk) 02:55, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Alright, thank you for the help! SonOfYoutubers (talk) 02:57, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Siege
In early modern terms, how long does a battle have to last for to be considered a siege? 2001:48F8:4028:1C23:5976:3467:85C7:21B6 (talk) 03:09, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * This may be covered by the article Siege. General knowlege questions like this should go to WP:RD.  The Help Desk is for questions about how to use Wikipedia.  RudolfRed (talk) 03:19, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Display about our Company
We want to add the details about our company on Wikipedia, let me know the steps to take ahead Kgyanesh (talk) 04:59, 7 November 2023 (UTC)


 * First, make absolutely sure your company is notable by our definition of notability. Notability is the only absolute requirement for an article here. Do not skip this step, or you will be wasting your time and ours. See WP:NCORP. Once you are sure, please come back here fro further advice. -Arch dude (talk) 05:05, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * "Notability is the only absolute requirement for an article here." Arch dude, really? It is indeed an absolute requirement, but there are also requirements for a neutral POV, for avoidance of what's euphemistically termed "original research", etc. -- Hoary (talk) 08:32, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * All of those problems can be repaired. Even copyvio can be repaired. It is mandatory to fix them, but they do not preclude the existence of an article or require that the article be removed. -Arch dude (talk) 16:21, 7 November 2023 (UTC)


 * @Kgyanesh Some more guidance at An article about yourself isn't necessarily a good thing. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:03, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Requested images
Is it mandatory to remove an image request template from the article's talk page after adding an image to a Wikipedia article? One as an uploader, may add an image solely because the article needs it, not based on a template request placed by other user. An image uploader may not be aware, or interested in talk pages and request templates and removing an image request template sounds like an extra task for the uploader that could be done by a bot. Flora and fauna man (talk) 08:15, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * It's not mandatory and I guess few editors check for such a template if they were adding an image anyway. A bot wouldn't be good at judging whether a relevant image has been added but it's OK that the template remains until somebody examines it. I assume anyone working on requested images will check whether an image is still needed before spending time on a request. PrimeHunter (talk) 10:30, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Fort of Bom Sucesso
Why does the system not allow me to change the brief description? It should be fort in singular, not forts.Roundtheworld (talk) 09:07, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * It was added by Bastion forts in Portugal at the end. I have removed it there. PrimeHunter (talk) 10:23, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

An article I edit keeps getting edited to almost no content
My article keeps getting edited and get this message Undid revision 1183868194 by Padelacruzfernandez (talk): restoe updated info, remove yet again spammy stuff There is no spammy stuff at all but information that is on our website, a Sage academic journal. Please stop this. Randykitty is doing all this undoing. Padelacruzfernandez (talk) 10:36, 7 November 2023 (UTC)


 * If you are associated with this journal, that must be formally disclosed, please read conflict of interest and paid editing, as well as how to make edit requests. The main purpose of a Wikipedia article is to summarize what independent reliable sources say about a topic, not what it wants to say about itself. 331dot (talk) 10:46, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I am an editor of the journal, yes, I don't see how that is a conflict of interest Padelacruzfernandez (talk) 10:59, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * It is a conflict of interest as far as the Wikipedia guideline defines it, which is what matters if you wish to contribute. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:06, 7 November 2023 (UTC)


 * If you don't see how that constitutes a COI, then you're not really suited to be an editor (here or at the journal). --Randykitty (talk) 11:28, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * It's not clear to new editors that when we say COI on Wikipedia, we mean "conflict of interest with Wikipedia's purpose as a neutral encyclopaedia". User:Padelacruzfernandez, think of it this way: if your journal had an entry in Encyclopedia Britannica, would it have a whole paragraph about how to browse your archives and submit a paper? And another paragraph that redefines the discipline it covers? Wikipedia is not an alternate hub for anyone's online presence. Folly Mox (talk) 11:42, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Pecorino romano
I request the renaming of this page (in the Italian language, "romano" is an adjective and not a proper noun), plus I request that "Pecorino Romano" within the infobox be placed in italics and the capital "R" removed. Thank you in advance. JackkBrown (talk) 12:23, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * In English, place-names, and adjectives derived from them, like "Spanish", should be capitalised. Maproom (talk) 12:32, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * should the "P" of "Pecorino Romano" also be capitalised, or just the "R"? JackkBrown (talk) 13:04, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Pecorino Romano seems to be the most common capitalisation by a considerable margin in English language book sources. Folly Mox (talk) 13:06, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * If "Pecorino Romano" is all in capitals, why isn't "Pecorino toscano"? Give me a valid reason. JackkBrown. why not "Pecorino toscano"? (talk) 13:13, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * There is significant coverage in the Manual of Style regarding capitalization and italicization, answering most of the questions you've had recently. This one comes down to which form is used in sources. Remsense  聊  13:34, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * User:JackkBrown, per your request yesterday I ran a similar ngram which found that "Pecorino Toscano" is also the most common capitalisation in English language book sources.Ngram syntax is actually pretty powerful, but the basic comparisons are easy to run. They make a fairly strong statement about things like capital letters and common names if you find yourself in a discussion about something like that. I encourage you to try it out as a tool to add to your research toolkit.As with most things on Wikipedia, if you're wanting to make a project wide change about this, a good starting place is the relevant talkpage: in this case Talk:Pecorino Romano or Talk:Pecorino toscano, depending on which direction you'd like to standardise the capitalisations of the toponym-adjective.Those are pretty low-traffic talkpages though, so there might be a more central location to have the conversation. Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters (where I see no one has yet responded to your previous request to downcase Italian provinces) may be a good venue., apologies for the ping. You seemed to have a definitive statement about capitalisation of adjectivised toponyms just above. I didn't find this after a quick skim of MOS:CAPS; do you have any other suggested venues for JackkBrown to raise this topic? Folly Mox (talk) 13:37, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I've sorted out all the pages, what an effort! Could you do me a favour? Since I can't rename the page "Pecorino sardo" (as you said, it should be capitalised), could you do it? Thanks in advance. JackkBrown (talk) 15:47, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I think that Folly Mox is not an admin; I'm certainly not. 's request is for a move over a redirect, which I think needs an admin. Maproom (talk) 16:20, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * an uncontroversial move over a redirect can be requested at Requested moves/Technical requests. TSventon (talk) 16:37, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yup: I'm no admin. (verify) Folly Mox (talk) 17:08, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Italics
"Ricercar", "fantasia", "canzona" and "toccata" go in italics? I would not like to make mistakes like I did with "Pecorino Romano". JackkBrown (talk) 13:01, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * MOS:FOREIGNITALIC; it depends on how common the word is in English.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 13:37, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Could you tell me? I should finish the job, and now that I am searching in English (I am not a native English speaker) it will take me an hour. JackkBrown (talk) 13:42, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * It has to be looked at on a case by case basis. Personally I would use italics sparingly unless a word is very uncommon and unlikely to be understood by an average English speaker. So fantasia and toccata don't need italics.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 13:53, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * My trusty Chambers 20th Century dictionary (1972 edition) has all four words as being derived from Italian but now standard English words associated with music. That dictionary uses the spelling canzone but our article points out this is an acceptable alternative. Mike Turnbull (talk) 13:58, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * and what do you think about this question I asked a while ago? "I have italicised "macchietta", "sceneggiata", "musicarello" and others, but I wondered if "spaghetti Western" should also be italicised. Thanks in advance." I put italics on all these. If I made a mistake, could you correct it? I am taking care of today's pages. JackkBrown (talk) 14:08, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * That should not be italicized: not only is it not an Italian loanphrase—it was coined in English—it is very commonly used and familiar to English speakers. I am not sure if you are looking at MOS:FOREIGNITALICS and MOS:CAPS as have been linked to you numerous times. I understand the hesitation regarding making stylistic errors, but it's generally better to make mistakes at first and learn over time, rather than worrying and relying on others to make such judgement calls. These errors are easily fixable en masse by people who are inclined to do so. If you are worried, just do your best—you will maximize your contribution to the encyclopedia that way. Remsense  聊  14:14, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * My Chambers has none of the new three but even if it did I wouldn't be sucked into correcting your "mistakes" as I believe I can contribute my limited time in better ways elsewhere. Anyone who thinks that spaghetti isn't a well-known English word has clearly never been to a British/Italian restaurant! Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:16, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

I have no options to adjust World War I as some content might not look constructive, thus making some necessary changes and refreshes.
Hi Wikipedia editors and administators, I am just a new beginner to Wikipedia (I am anonymous anyway), I spot the heading "From the top, left to right" is not my favor, I would rather change the name of the heading described into "Clockwise from top left". I would like to get a conscious suggestion from anyone here as soon as possible. Much love from IP new editor! 2001:EE0:4BE2:4A90:9003:F0AC:7E16:577A (talk) 14:18, 7 November 2023 (UTC)


 * IP editor. Doing that would necessitate altering the photos as well, since the ship would be the last in your scheme. The montage has probably been carefully considered and chosen by WP:CONSENSUS. If you wish to try to reach a new consensus, please do so by posting at Talk:World War I, which is not locked to IP editors. Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:24, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

And also change the subtitle of it. I apologize for sending a second message.
I concluded the problem in the title. Thanks a lot! 2001:EE0:4BE2:4A90:9003:F0AC:7E16:577A (talk) 14:19, 7 November 2023 (UTC)


 * See above. Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:25, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Fantasie in C (Schumann)
If I have made a mistake I will fix it, as I have fixed my mistakes today, but since it is the only work with "Fantasie" that has italics in the title, I think it should be removed; however, I cannot find a way to do so. JackkBrown (talk) 15:23, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * You should really stop creating new sections. If you want to post each individual question here, please append it to the heading you already have. Remsense  聊  15:27, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Generally, titles are italicized either because there is an infobox that does so automatically or because there's Template:Italic title somewhere on the page. the latter is true for Fantasie page. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:39, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * as already mentioned, I cannot find the template. JackkBrown (talk) 15:52, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Oddly, it is near the bottom of the page in the source code. Ctrl-F is your friend when editing! Mike Turnbull (talk) 15:55, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I always edit from my mobile phone. JackkBrown (talk) 16:02, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, so do many others. I think that you need to be using desktop mode, however, to use all the necessary features for the sort of editing you want to do. Mike Turnbull (talk) 16:18, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @JackkBrown: It's in the External links section, directly above the categories. GoingBatty (talk) 17:01, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * done! JackkBrown (talk) 17:04, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @JackkBrown: Fantasie (Widmann) and Fantaisie-Impromptu also have italics in the title. GoingBatty (talk) 17:00, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * If you are going to work on music items, please familiarise yourself with the guidelines at Manual of Style/Music and work to those. Feline Hymnic (talk) 17:47, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * yes, I will. In any case, I cancelled all my mistakes. JackkBrown (talk) 18:20, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Why are my updates reverting back to the previous text.
Every time I do an update, the text reverts back to what was there before. I also cannot update the photo. This is just terrible. This is my organisation's page and it appears I have no control over the content. Who has control? Makes me wonder why I bothered help fund Wikipedia when I've just realised there is no admin, just volunteers.

StateHospitalCarstairs (talk) 16:27, 7 November 2023 (UTC)


 * @StateHospitalCarstairs As you can see from that article's history you are being reverted by other editors. You have a conflict of interest and should not be editing that article at all: see also WP:PAID. No-one owns a Wikipedia article and content is determined by WP:CONSENSUS between all editors. You can make suggestions for changes on the artcle's Talk Page. Mike Turnbull (talk) 16:39, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @StateHospitalCarstairs: There ARE admins (who are also volunteers) - see Administrators for details on their responsibilities. GoingBatty (talk) 17:11, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * OP has been softblocked for contravening the username policy. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 17:36, 7 November 2023 (UTC)


 * You are correct: you do not have any control over the content. Please carefully read and assimilate WP:OWN. It is not your page. You have no more authority or rights to edit this article than any other editor. In fact, you have less rights, because you are supposed to follow the WP:COI guidance and not directly edit the article at all, while almost all other editors can freely edit it if they are following our policies and guidelines. -Arch dude (talk) 22:12, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

search engine issue (I think)
I was looking for the wikiproject on women scientists today, so I typed "wikiproject women scientists" in the search box. Many listings came up, but the link for the actual wikiproject was not on the first page.

So I dug the link out of an old file: WikiProject Women scientists  The link appears to still be functional.

How does one find wikiproject pages when one doesn't have the link?

Thanks! BioProfDrH (talk) 16:27, 7 November 2023 (UTC)


 * @BioProfDrH You can confine the search to the Wikipedia wp:namespace by prefixing any search term with  Doing so in the default vector 22 search box gets you to the right suggestion as soon as you have typed  . That tip works for loads of searches over the Help pages and for policies/essays etc. Mike Turnbull (talk) 16:34, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * You are the greatest - thanks! BioProfDrH (talk) 17:17, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The search results page for has a "Search in" selection which is only "Article" by default but you can also choose "All" or "Wikipedia" there. PrimeHunter (talk) 20:55, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Sometimes using an external search is faster than using an internal one. I use DuckDuckGo as my search engine and I searched for "wikiproject women scientists" and the first hit was Wikipedia:WikiProject Women scientists.  Remember - the entire content of wikipedia is indexed by about every search engine on the planet and sometimes an external search is more productive than an internal one (not often, but sometimes). User:Ceyockey ( talk to me ) 02:21, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Many parts of the Wikipedia namespace are not indexed by external search engines because they use  or are covered by https://en.wikipedia.org/robots.txt. There are also whole namespaces which are noindexed with mw:Manual:$wgNamespaceRobotPolicies. See more at WP:NOINDEX. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:11, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Would this be considered a duplicate article?
I'm currently working on the draft Draft:Miracle cures - Wikipedia. I searched beforehand if the article existed already at all, and I could not find anything, so I decided to make it. However, as I was working on it, I discovered that the concept did kind of exist, named patent medicines. I read and it is relatively close to what I'm writing about. But the difference is that my article is based less on patented or trademarked names and more on the general topic of misleading products/services that offer health benefits. So, I'm now a bit stuck and bent on whether or not it is considered a duplicate. Additionally, my article is more based on the modern concept, and less on the historical part. So, would it be considered a duplicate of patent medicines if I submitted it for review (when I finish writing the article)? SonOfYoutubers (talk) 16:55, 7 November 2023 (UTC)


 * @SonOfYoutubers: Hi there! You could start a discussion on Talk:Patent medicine to discuss the issue and share a link to your draft, and build consensus on how to move forward.  Happy editing! GoingBatty (talk) 17:03, 7 November 2023 (UTC)


 * You are right to pause. Wikipedia already covers a vast number of topics, so the likelihood of finding one not already covered is quite small.  So when it comes to anything that claims somehow to be science but isn't, this also is already reasonably well covered. The articles Pseudoscience and List of topics characterized as pseudoscience would be good places to start looking.  And for medicine in particular, you could start at article Quackery.  Perhaps what you have in mind is already covered there, or could benefit from your improvement.  (Remember that creation of new articles is a very small part of the activity on Wikipedia.  By far the major part is improving articles that already exist.) Hope that helps. Feline Hymnic (talk) 17:09, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh, and right at the bottom of almost every article is usually something called "Categories". This is true of article "Quackery".  So exploring from there could also be very beneficial to what you are considering. Feline Hymnic (talk) 17:12, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I think that "patent medicines" and "miracle cures" are different, at least regarding what is claimed for them. Patent medicines are claimed to work by medical/physiological/scientific methods, while miracle cures are claimed to work by the intervention of God. Maproom (talk) 17:26, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * For miracle cures, as opposed to patent medicines, take a look at Category:Supernatural healing. They are very different. -Arch dude (talk) 19:20, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * faith healing is a part of miracle cures, but miracle cures also include non-religious based products. I guess you could say they're a "modern" version of unbased healing products. That's why I'm not sure if it's necessarily a duplicate, because I think it could be its own article, but it does share some similarities to several existing articles. SonOfYoutubers (talk) 21:33, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * If you wish to create an article named "miracle cure", it must be about the generally-accepted meaning of that term as used by most of your reliable sources, even if you feel it is in reality part of a larger concept. Your new article can of course mention related concepts, but please be careful not to overstep into too much WP:SYNTH. From my (73-year-old) perspective, the term is primarily about religious and quasi-religious stuff (and of course Tommy) and the term is less used than other terms for the new-age stuff, but your perspective may be supportable by newer sources. -Arch dude (talk) 15:30, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Preferences question
I just recently reset my prefences to default, and now I notice that at the top of articles, it no longer shows who created the article and when. Not sure if this is a coincidence, or because of the reset, but I can't seem to find any option in the preferences that addresses this. Can anyone shed some light on this? Thanks - w o lf  21:51, 7 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I don't remember ever seeing that. I wonder if you installed some special Javascript? ColinFine (talk) 22:59, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * XTools maybe? It's in "Gadgets."  Squeakachu (talk) 23:28, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yep, that's what it was. I must've selected XTools at some point several years ago and forgot. Anyways, thanks for steering me to that. Cheers - w o lf  00:08, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Force width
Heidenröslein has three columns of information: the original German text and two translations. On my screen, the display is too narrow, so the rightmost column gets pushed down by an image. Is there a way to force the section to have a certain width, so all three columns are always presented together? 123.51.107.94 (talk) 22:45, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I moved the image to the top and reduced its size a bit. The text and translation columns are now displaying OK for me (they weren't before). Does it look OK to you? Deor (talk) 00:20, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * For me the image is still pushing the two rightmost columns down a bit, so I added clear.  Anon 126   (notify me of responses! / talk / contribs) 00:27, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * That adds an awful lot of blank vertical space below the opening paragraphs, though. That's why I didn't use . Deor (talk) 00:40, 8 November 2023 (UTC)