Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2024 April 16

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Fettuccine Alfredo
Hi, a user recently edited this page by removing "Italian-American cuisine" and adding "Italian cuisine" (without adequate explanation), after many years that "Italian-American cuisine" was present on this page; I would like to hear other opinions. I'm familiar with this dish, and the way it has evolved it's no longer part of Italian cuisine, yet today in this encyclopaedia it has automatically become Italian (there is no dish called "fettuccine Alfredo" in Italy, we have "pasta al burro", but it's a bit different); what we do in this situation? JacktheBrown (talk) 02:12, 16 April 2024 (UTC)


 * There is already discussion of this on the article's talk page. If you and the other editor can't reach consensus through that discussion, try WP:DR. RudolfRed (talk) 03:26, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Despite what says, the dish was created in Rome by Alfredo Di Lelio at the restaurant Alfredo alla Scrofa over 100 years ago, and so it is an Italian dish even if it is now more popular in the United States than in Italy. Every dish has its variations and certainly the contemporary American versions are different in the sense that cream is used in the sauce in addition to butter and parmesan cheese. That does not mean that they are two different dishes. They are different versions of the same original dish that was marketed to American tourists in Rome starting in the 1920s. Cullen328 (talk) 06:45, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't mean to stir the sauce here, however – it may be true that this dish exists on the website of a restaurant in Rome that bills itself as its originator, but what writes is also true: in Italy, there is no such thing as "Fettuccine Alfredo", at least not beyond the front door of the restaurant (or restaurants) trying to cash-in on the "origin" story in order to sell "pasta in bianco" to American tourists for €24 a plate (...only extra €25 with truffles, €50 with caviar, very good, you want Mister? "King of Noodles" indeed). Gambero Rosso has a somewhat tongue in cheek piece which gets to the heart of the matter here, and our friends on Italian Wikipedia summarise it well too (see Diffusione e varianti section). Mostly, picky children and those recovering from illness get "pasta in bianco". -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 15:07, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * thank you so much for your comment, very helpful for all who will read it! JacktheBrown (talk) 16:01, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

How to cite sources from a Google Drive link
Hello. I'm editing articles about historical elections, and I have received archived returns from a state board of elections, however, these files are in a downloadable PDF form located on a Google Drive. Can't find it on any other web page. How would I go about citing these returns? Longestview (talk) 04:21, 16 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Hi @Longestview, you should not cite to a Google Drive. Sources should be published and it sounds like those return forms have been sent to you personally by the local election body? That means they are not "published". Instead, you could cite them offline via Template:Cite_document and put the onus on the reader to request the returns if they wanted to check the reference.  Qcne  (talk)  08:19, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Bizarre title
Isn't this article having a bizarre title ? Translation/Urban Network Bouzinac (talk) 08:15, 16 April 2024 (UTC)


 * The title looks fine to me. If you want to propose a change, the place to do so is on the article talk page. Shantavira|feed me 08:39, 16 April 2024 (UTC)


 * It is not an article, it is a Subpage of Translation. It is an incomplete translation from ja Wikipedia, abandoned since 2008, so it could probably be deleted. TSventon (talk) 08:55, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * There are other subpages such as Translation/Tanja Ostojić, which are tagged as inactive and seem to be requests for translation. TSventon (talk) 09:06, 16 April 2024 (UTC)


 * What would be a good template to say and tag "hey this article need update/finition of translation" ? Bouzinac (talk) 09:14, 16 April 2024 (UTC)


 * There is Template:Expand language, but the Japanese version used is fifteen years out of date, so I think a deletion discussion is probably better. TSventon (talk) 09:29, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * You mean delete the enwiki article because time has passed between starting of translation in enwiki and current version of jawiki https://ja.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%E3%82%A2%E3%83%BC%E3%83%90%E3%83%B3%E3%83%8D%E3%83%83%E3%83%88%E3%83%AF%E3%83%BC%E3%82%AF&action=history ? Bouzinac (talk) 09:54, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I have started a discussion at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Translation/Urban Network. I don't think the page is useful as it is incompletely translated and likely to be out of date. There are always alternatives to deletion, such as fixing the page or moving to draft, or even leaving it where it is as it is not in article space. TSventon (talk) 10:21, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Poorly covered topics spread over several articles.
I found two topics that are either poorly covered or nearly synonymous, what do I do, what do, where do I find a consensus about merging (or fixing) more than two pages at once.

Number one is scientific communication/debate/discourse
 * Scientific communication
 * Scientific debate currently redirects to the negatively framed Scientific controversy
 * Scientific discourse doesn't exist
 * ... and I can't find an article that covers the topic in-depth at all

Number two is the independence of media
 * Media independence was largely created by a single editor using some kind of free source (User:Sarah GM)
 * Independent media is currently an article linking the term with Alternative media in a bit of a... seemingly politically convenient way
 * Editorial independence ... a term that is used largely synonymously with the above
 * ... the two way better articles here are Freedom of the press and Freedom of speech of course

For clarity, I haven't tried anything yet, and am just unsure about what to do. JackTheSecond (talk) 12:18, 16 April 2024 (UTC)


 * You can tag pairs (or triples; but I would start simple) of articles with merge, or merge to/ merge from, and start a discussion on one of their talk pages, per the documentation of those templates. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:25, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I know that, the problem with it is that none of the pages on scientific discourse having a significant amount of watchers. JackTheSecond (talk) 12:31, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * You say you know that, and yet your question was "what do I do, what do, where do I find a consensus about merging (or fixing) more than two pages at once".  Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:34, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @JackTheSecond, if you believe a merge is not controversial, you can simply do the merge. There's info at Merging. Valereee (talk) 14:25, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * When you have an editorial opinion on a merge, then open a discussion using the merge templates and processes described above. If there are few watchers and/or little input from other editors, then after about a week of (non)discussion, go ahead and perform the merges. Basically you are an editor with just as much authority to make this decision as any other editor. You think it's an improvement, nobody bothered to oppose you, so just do it. If there is an objection later, that will open the discussion. -Arch dude (talk) 15:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * thank you JackTheSecond (talk) 15:22, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

conflict in wikipedia
eudes en odo ere the same person ! fr:Eudes d'Orléans en:Odo I, Count of Orléans 2A02:1810:2D25:F000:F343:F063:6592:AE64 (talk) 16:40, 16 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Dear IP, these are two pages from two different language editions of Wikipedia; the first fr.wiki, the second en.wiki. JacktheBrown (talk) 16:45, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * There are 18 articles about the subject in total on the different language wikipedias: (see Q1345866). What is the "conflict"? Cl3phact0 (talk) 16:48, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * And fr:Jacques II (roi d'Angleterre) is the same person as James II of England. Do you see some problem with this? ColinFine (talk) 16:50, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Adding information
2403:5808:BC08:1:0:0:0:FE58 (talk) 16:44, 16 April 2024 (UTC)


 * It doesn't appear that we have an article about that particlar Chris Howard. If you can find the required independent reliably published sources to establish that he meets Wikipedia's criteria for notability, (remember, that nothing written, published, commissioned, or based on information directly from him or his associates counts towards this), then there could be an article.
 * You could add it to requested articles, but to be honest the take-up from there is very little.
 * It is possible, but not very likely, that the topic might capture somebody's interest and they might write it.
 * The most likely way for you to get that article included in Wikipedia is by writing it yourself. I need to warn you, though, that creating a new article is one of the most challenging tasks there is for new editors, and people who attempt it before they have spent a few months learning how Wikipedia works by making edits and interacting with other editors usually have a frustrating and disappointing experience.
 * My advice would be to put Chris Howard aside for a while, read Help:Introduction and begin learning how to be a Wikipedia editor, and when you've got a grasp of some basic ideas (especially notability) read your first article, and come back to it.
 * One more note: if you are Howard, or are connected with him, then your task is likely to be even more difficult, because your conflict of interest my make it more difficult to write in the required neutral tone. Whatever you do, do not pay anybody to write an article. No paid editors are in any way accredited by Wikipedia, and many of them are scammers. ColinFine (talk) 17:01, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Vulgar fraction policy
What is Wikipedia's policy on using Unicode vulgar fractions like ½? On multiple occasions, I have inserted them into articles but they have been edited out as "typos". I found nothing about them in the manual of style. BenbowInn (talk) 19:04, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * See MOS:FRAC Meters (talk) 19:22, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Emptying out categories to get them speedy deleted
I've come across this behaviour several times, where an editor seems to disagree with the existence of a category or category tree for whatever reason so they start removing the category from every page so that they can nominate it for speedy deletion.

To me personally, this seems very dishonest to do as it circumvents the category for discussion process. In my opinion doing this intentionally should be discouraged if not outright banned. ★Trekker (talk) 23:03, 16 April 2024 (UTC)


 * @★Trekker Now, that's very interesting to me, because I'd thought of doing it myself. That's following seeing it suggested here, somewhere, for the cases I'm concerned with.


 * I've been largely doing cleanups of categories--mainly biological ones. And I'm thinking, for example, of a very large category for some biological family.  There might be a genus or two in that family with lots of species; these could well be made into subcategories (and I've made many categories and moved literally thousands of species); it makes the family category more manageable, and gives some improved order to the subcategory for the genus.


 * But I find a lot of these categories with subcategories that contain three or two species, or even just one. And usually, they're not likely ever to have any more.  It makes a clutter of subcategories that do virtually nothing to make the main category more manageable.  When I think about running them all up for approval for deletion, it occurs to me that nobody approved their creation in the first place.  I'm sure of that; I've created hundreds of categories (did one just a day or two ago, and put over 90 articles into it).  Uporządnicki (talk) 00:21, 17 April 2024 (UTC)