Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates/11 January 2010

Simon Cowell quits Idol
Simon Cowell has quit American Idol, effective at the end of this season, after Fox announced that they had acquired the rights to an American version of his popular British show, X-Factor. I have already updated the Cowell article with a few sentences. (BBC)(THR) Unit  Anode  22:22, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose. We have a better entertainment story below. Cowell's career in the U.S. has always (seemed to me to have) been a series of contact problems anyway. Physchim62 (talk) 22:28, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * How is the death of a French film director a "better entertainment story" than the biggest reality star in two countries quitting the top reality show in America? That just seems utterly nonsensical. Unit  Anode  22:37, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose Yes, he's the most important element of the biggest show in America, but it's still a TV show. Besides, he hasn't actually left yet, but says he will at the end of the next season.  If this is notable potentially, it can only be so once he's done his final episode. HonouraryMix (talk) 22:31, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * This is sheer madness. It isn't a "contract problem" at all. It's the most popular reality star in the world quitting. It's reported both stateside, and internationally. Why do people even try to get real news stories through the gauntlet of this process? Unit  Anode  22:32, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * this doesnt seem any more notable than a character getting killed off on a tv show to me. next time someone important dies on Dexter_(TV_series) are we going to post it... (given that the character getting killed off was due to some contract issue)? just because this is reality tv doesnt make it any more special -- Ashish-g55 22:36, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Complete and utter nonsense. Comparing Cowell quitting to the death of a character on a TV series? Is that what this place is about? Unit  Anode  22:39, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * This is more notable than a character in a fictional show being killed off, because Cowell is undoubtedly a huge star. But, we're still talking about a TV show, and Cowell hasn't left yet.  He's still doing a whole season yet.  If this is notable potentially, wait until his final episode.  And please refrain from calling other editors' opinions "nonsense". HonouraryMix (talk) 22:45, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * It's notable now because it's in the news now. It will also be notable after his last show on Idol, but that fact doesn't make it less notable now. And I'll call nonsense "nonsense", thanks. And it's patent nonsense to think that the death of a French film director is notable, but this is not.  Unit  Anode  22:48, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * so according to you death of a person in real life is less notable than someone quitting a tv show...? (this isnt support for the french director just observation). And i still think getting killed off in fictional tv show is same thing. even fictional shows can have huge stars. leaving or quitting the show in fiction or reality tv is not that different. -- Ashish-g55 22:54, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * How about we put both up, and see which gets more hits? Then we'll see which is more notable. As I said, this line of argument is utter nonsense. Unit  Anode  22:55, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * well im out of this conversation. good luck getting both up :) -- Ashish-g55 22:57, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, it won't happen now, and you helped with that. Thanks for the snark, though... Unit  Anode  23:01, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I must ask again that you show your fellow editors some respect by not repeating the word "nonsense" all the time. It's not necessary. HonouraryMix (talk) 23:00, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * When they stop posting nonsense like Ashish has, I will. Unit  Anode  23:01, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Why don't you withdraw that comment, and we might listen to you. I refuse to consider an editor who treats another editor's comments as "nonsense". Physchim62 (talk) 23:06, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * How else should a comment comparing the biggest reality star in American (a Brit, for that matter) quitting the biggest reality show in America to a character dying on a TV show? It is nonsense, and I won't say otherwise. I didn't call him an ignorant git or anything like that. I characterized his comments as nonsense, which they were. That's not a violation of WP:CIVIL, and I won't be withdrawing it. I highly doubt that you would have been giving this nomination any serious consideration, though, so I'm not too worried about your quid pro quo offer. Unit  Anode  23:11, 11 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Strong oppose Changes in TV presenters are not significant news. Furthermore, this only affects ONE programme on ONE channel in ONE country - even the recent Jonathan Ross story is bigger than that. Modest Genius talk 23:09, 11 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't know. I'm not sure what exactly Cowell has achieved, can this be demonstrated here (with sources)? I have outlined why I believe the death of Éric Rohmer is significant below rather than just nominating the event. When I compare the death of someone whose career spans from the 1950s until 2010 to someone who was apparently born as 1960 approached, whose career in television seems to date from about 2001 and who isn't even dead, not to mention that he has announced he is to quit rather than that he has factually quit right now, I am not compelled to support this with such little detail. -- can  dle &bull; wicke  23:11, 11 January 2010 (UTC)


 * This is the most asanine "debate" in which I've ever participated. I believe I'll just head for the door now. Miss me, okay? Unit  Anode  23:12, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Mark McGwire admits using steroids
McGwire, who was a gigantic story in North America when he broke Lou Gehrig's single-season home-run record in 1998, has admitted juicing up that season. This is the number-one Associated Press story on Yahoo News right now, which is very rare for a sports story. It's also on the top section of the nytimes.com and washingtonpost.com homepages. Not a surprise, but an important story nonetheless. In '98, McGwire was a huge national hero on the scale of Charles Lindbergh after his trans-Atlantic flight. (You have to understand the meaning of baseball in America and the meaning of statistics in baseball.) Now he's admitting he cheated. -- 199.172.169.17 (talk) 23:43, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * It was Roger Maris's record. Anyway, I oppose this nomination, mainly because people have suspected/known this for years. He doesn't even hold the home run record anymore (it now belongs to another suspected juicer.  ~DC  Talk To Me 00:37, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose if this is the case. If it is already known it is not a new event. If he doesn't even hold the record well... -- can  dle &bull; wicke  00:51, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose, I don't think we would run this sort of story for a top footballer (soccer player) who had the record for the most goals in a season. We would probably have run the Ben Johnson story, but it would need that sort of a record (100m sprint world record) to do it. As for those years in U.S. baseball: "Looking back, I wish I had never played during the steroid era." is how McGwire put it, which really speaks for itself. Physchim62 (talk) 01:45, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Temporary resignation
The First Minister of Northern Ireland, Peter Robinson temporarily steps down. (RTÉ), (Times Online), (BBC), (CNN), (Euronews). — Cargoking   talk  21:34, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I was thinking about this one. Leaning towards oppose since Northern Ireland is a part of UK, not a separate country (and we didn't post various US states with governors or senators resigning). --Tone 22:03, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose I agree with Tone, this is on the same level as US State governors. And he's only stepping down temporarily anyway (quite how that's possible I'm not sure). Modest Genius talk 22:08, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The Northern Ireland article on Wikipedia describes it as a country. -- can  dle &bull; wicke  22:26, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I know. Sovereign country? Anyway, it's not the same as France or Germany. --Tone 22:27, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose Tone worded it best. Northern Ireland is a country, but it's not at the level of the two countries noted.  To all intents and purposes, this is all on the level of US states, and so not notable enough. HonouraryMix (talk) 22:28, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Candlewicke, Northern Ireland is a 'constituent country' but not a sovereign state. It's the same status as England, Wales and Scotland have - all are countries which make up the sovereign state of the United Kingdom. Modest Genius talk 23:12, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Completely local news, the sort of mix of sex and petty abuse of power that happens in most places. I will just note that our article on Iris Robinson is getting more hits than either the college football or the darts, just to say that I don't just go on viewing figures! Physchim62 (talk) 22:33, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose Northern Ireland isn't a sovereign country, so this would be the same as Eliot Spitzer or Sarah Palin resigning. Of course, one could make an argument that those resignations could've been added, given the media attention they received.  ~DC  Talk To Me 00:41, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment we ran the Rod Blagojevich story this time last year, but only just and only after he refused to resign and was unanimously voted out of office: I'd also say that that was a rather more serious corruption scandal than the one going on in Northern Ireland at the moment. I still go with my assesment that the Robinson scandal (as alleged) would only be a petty and local abuse of power, and so not ITN material. Physchim62 (talk) 01:24, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Death of Éric Rohmer

 * Seems to be an important figure in film.

The New York Times says he was "one of the founding figures of the internationally influential movement that became known as the French New Wave, and the director of more than 50 films for theaters and television" and he "remained true to a restrained, rationalist aesthetic, close to the principles of the 18th-century thinkers whose words he frequently cited in his movies". He was known in America for his film My Night at Maud's (1969).

The BBC says: "He was the director of the critically acclaimed Tales of Four Seasons and one of the key figures of the post-war New Wave cinema movement" and "Rohmer was awarded the Golden Lion at Venice in 2001 for his career's work".

The Philippine Daily Inquirer says his films were "widely distributed abroad".

CBC News describes the New Wave: "The New Wave rejected Hollywood tropes and sought to bring a more edgy, improvised style to cinema. Rohmer avoided both closeups and background music and his slow-moving films show characters in mundane situations such as riding a bicycle or waiting for a train".

His death is also reported in The New Zealand Herald.

His obituary in The Daily Telegraph describes him as "the most durable film-maker of the French New Wave" who outlasted his peers and "in his seventies was still making movies the public wanted to see". -- can  dle &bull; wicke  20:36, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Support - important person - TouLouse (talk) 20:53, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Support, while I have concerns about whether this death was expected or not, he was important in French Cinema. I suggest a blurb mention that he was influential in the development of French New Wave.   ~DC  Talk To Me 21:06, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Important figure in his field. Support when the article is updated a bit. --Tone 22:03, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose, as this is the English Wikipedia, if I remember correctly. The death of a French film director hardly seems of all that great importance. If we were the French Wikipedia, perhaps, but we're not. Unit  Anode  22:42, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know whether this is notable enough or not, but one quick point Unita, we don't discriminate on the basis of nationality. We examine nominations on the basis of the subject's worldwide importance.  Now, I'm not saying this guy is important, I don't know.  But we don't disqualify because he's French and we speak English. HonouraryMix (talk) 22:50, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, so it's not "discriminating" when people knee-jerk oppose US-based noms, but it is "discriminating" when I point out that we're editing the English Wikipedia, and that perhaps we should focus on issues that are of more interest to people who are in some way English? I see. Unit  Anode  22:53, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I specifically provided sources from prominent English-speaking countries and media, some with a large population (which appeals to some of those whose opinions are often found here). I did not mention the amount of coverage he has received in the French media. -- can  dle &bull; wicke  22:54, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose. He clearly was an important film director but he seems a bit unfamiliar to English-speaking audiences.  He died at the age of 89 and not during an active stage of his career.  He only gets about 1500 hits on google news, which isn't a huge number.  Plus, there really isn't that much prose in the article.  Also, there's been some talk that too many deaths are mentioned on ITN and this certainly seems to be one that doesn't have to go up.--Johnsemlak (talk) 22:55, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * It is discriminating when people "knee-jerk oppose US-based noms", but I see no evidence of that. Case in point, I opposed the nomination of Cowell, but I also opposed a UK-based nomination, and I'm British. HonouraryMix (talk) 22:58, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * support when more content about reaction over his death is added to the article -- Ashish-g55 22:59, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment. We did not report the death of Ingmar Bergmann, a director who is far more notable.  Now, I don't really support the 'we report x so we must report y' argument, but it does get me thinking which film directors, or film personalities in general, are considered worthy for ITN mention.  I think the deaths of many much more notable and certainly more familiar to English-speaking audiences would be hotly contested here.--Johnsemlak (talk) 23:02, 11 January 2010 (UTC)a
 * Oh, and FWIW the article gets far less traffic than Iris Robinson.--Johnsemlak (talk) 23:07, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * (ec) We didn't have the same criteria back in 2007. Anyway, one of the criteria is the quality and update of the article and this one is not ready yet. I think we can continue the debate when/if the article is expanded, otherwise we're just losing time here... --Tone 23:08, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Ingmar Bergman died at the wrong time (like Luciano Pavarotti, etc, they would have a better chance if they had chosen to die today). The death criteria were tighter then. -- can  dle &bull; wicke  23:19, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Weak support, I think this is harmless. The guy is notable, we have fulfilled all the criteria (including international reaction to his death). My hesitation is the state of the article, which doesn't give much to suggest his exceptional notability, but at least it give more than the blurb (which is not always the case for "general news" stories that are posted. Physchim62 (talk) 23:32, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Chinese gender (im)balance report

 * The Chinese Academy of Social Sciences warns than the skewed gender ratio in the People's Republic of China, with 119 boys born for every 100 girls, will mean that more than 24 million men will be unable to find spouses by 2020. (BBC News)
 * I've come up with better nominations, but we seem to be short on stories at the moment. Physchim62 (talk) 12:46, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * It's an interesting story, but I'm leaning towards oppose. First, there isn't much of an update (if any) that I saw to the article you bolded. Plus I don't think it's of much significance.   ~DC  Talk To Me 17:36, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the update can be sorted out, if there's interest in the story. In the international media, we have (The Times) (The Age) (Bangkok Post) (France24), just to do a quick check. The general subject is of great significance: the question for me is whether this is the story to go on ITN. Physchim62 (talk) 18:30, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure. It is simply a possibility which may happen in future. It does not seem to be . --  can  dle &bull; wicke  22:59, 11 January 2010 (UTC)