Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates/April 2013

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[Posted] EU bans pesticides thought to cause Colony Collapse Disorder

 * Tentative support. The article is a GA, a pleasant surprise when I saw it. But the update is somehow scattered all over the article. Maybe some reorganization would be in place? --Tone 15:51, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment this is a pretty big deal, but I think neonicotinoid is a better article to bold than CCD. It's in ok shape. --IP98 (talk) 00:17, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - a major development in subject of a GA and environmentalist legislation and lots of other things and this is just generally good for ITN and did I mention Support? (Ugh, caffeine.) &mdash; TORTOISE  WRATH  03:39, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - major development in agriculture. I agree neonicotinoid is a more logical place for the update. --ThaddeusB (talk) 04:22, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Support: Notable and rare story, plus the article is in good shape. Alas, I was observing the Cherry Tree in my garden today, FULL of Honey Bees. 85.210.102.96 (talk) 11:49, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Support --Ushau97 (talk) 12:54, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - The article on colony collapse is quite informative but has just one line on the EU ban. IMO the article should be updated to have a bit more info on the ban.LegalEagle (talk) 15:51, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, notable even if insecticides aren't actually the cause (although I don't support some other EU steps such as price deregulation). Brandmeistertalk  16:59, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Is the cause proven? This would seem to be like posting the arrest of Pistorius, which we didn't, while the jury is out. μηδείς (talk) 19:35, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * In 2012, several peer reviewed independent studies were published showing that neonicotinoids had previously undetected routes of exposure affecting bees including through dust, pollen, and nectar[23] and that sub-nanogram toxicity resulted in failure to return to the hive without immediate lethality --IP98 (talk) 20:02, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Is that from an article? Can you give the source?  I am not really a strong oppose here, it's just that I read last week there were doubts of an actual connection.  Of course I didn't write the cite down expecting this nom.  Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 20:39, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * It's from the neonicotinoid which has inline refs backing it up. --IP98 (talk) 20:47, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 02:19, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * A one-second Google search: The Independent. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:45, 1 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Support. An enactment of this scale, supported by scientific research into the ecological impacts of a major substance used in the European agriculture industry, is highly significant. ~ AH1 (discuss!) 20:28, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Ready - Neonicotinoid is now updated. I have proposed an altblurb with a bit more precise wording. --ThaddeusB (talk) 22:32, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Support alt-blurb. Nice job. --IP98 (talk) 23:19, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted --Stephen 23:45, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Post posting support. Quite significant, a ban based on ecological concerns across multiple countries. Abductive  (reasoning) 04:22, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * This sort of an off-topic question, but if the EC enacts a ban on something, does that mean all member states had to agree, or just that the EC imposed it and all member states must comply? --IP98 (talk) 10:41, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * "15 of the 27 member states voted for a two-year restriction on neonicotinoids despite opposition by countries including Britain"  Abductive  (reasoning) 13:14, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Reference Here's a NYT article on the American study finding no single discernible cause.

Saradha Group financial scandal

 * Strong support: I was going to suggest it too! The article does not mention the number of affected people. If that can be included, the blurb will be more interesting! --Tito Dutta (contact) 00:19, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - the nature of a ponzi scheme is such that the amount "lost" was really transferred into other people's hands (i.e. those who got in earlier & the scam artists). As such, I really would prefer a blurb that doesn't make a claim about amount lost.  Perhaps something like:
 * ALT: The largest ponzi scheme in the history of Indian collapses as Saradha Group founders are arrested.
 * Also the article suggests the scheme has collapsed entirely by 18 April and the Sudipto Sen was arrest on 23 April, so unless I am missing something this story is already stale news.
 * Finally, on a quick galnce the article appears to contain a lot of personal opinions and speculation, which is a form of POV pushing. --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:30, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Add the one that West Bengal government is adding taxes on tobacco product to collect the lost money! --Tito Dutta (contact) 02:56, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Although the scheme had started to unravel from 18th, but as with most financial scam, the extent of the loss was not fully understood for some time, in this case on or around 26th. Therefore in my opinion it is not yet stale news. As for the POV, I am sure we can chuck out material which is not supported by reputed sources.LegalEagle (talk) 08:23, 30 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support significant event and strong article. One small point, if we are going to refer to suicide victims by name (which I don't think is absolutely necessary), we need a specific reference, by name, for each victim. Ascribing suicides to a particular singular cause is often problematic, so I would suggest replacing Saradha Group financial scandal with short, non-specific prose. LukeSurlt c 07:48, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I've made an edit to change this. --LukeSurlt c 10:30, 30 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment as to when one would actually date this story, it's somewhat arbirary unless we pick a blurb that focussess on a partuclar development. Probably April 23, the arrest of the main culprit, would be a suitable marker. LukeSurlt c 10:35, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support in principle, major financial news which is only slightly smaller than the Bernard Madoff scheme. However I agree that there's a concern over the date. It's not clear from the article what exactly has happened in the last week. Modest Genius talk 11:01, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The reaction section deals with what happened in last week. Happy to update any more info if you would raise any specific concern. I think that the crisis is an ongoing one and would be difficult to peg a date for it. LegalEagle (talk) 11:46, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The oldest item on the template is currently from 24 April, and they're listed in chronological order. So if there isn't an event with a date more recent than that, this is too old. Modest Genius talk 19:26, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * On 30 April, the legislative assembly passed a special law (with retrospective effect) to investigate and prosecute the ponzi fund promoters. Pls refer to ALT2 and ALT3. This can qualify as the most current development (I tried updating the article, but the sheer number of new developments just overwhelmed me), if you have time can you please try to copyedit the article. LegalEagle (talk) 10:20, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * If this was about the actions of the legislature the blurb should reflect that..... plus that law looks sorta mighty. A legislature investigating and prosecuting suspects? Isn't that a bill of attainder of some sorts? This has to be clarified. – H T  D  14:04, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The law which was passed is not a bill of attainder; the ponzi funds were using a loophole in the regulatory system in India, the law primarily wants to block any loopholes. Previously the ponzi fund mangers could be prosecuted under the Indian Penal Code, however the government wanted to increase the quantum of punishment (as a deterrent) and widen the criminal responsibility to agents of the promoters (who may not have been directly involved), the law also simplifies the process of attachment of property gained from criminal endeavours. The law was being debated/pending for the last 10 years but was passed within a week after the fund collapse.LegalEagle (talk) 14:20, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Well that explains it. At first glance the law was aimed specifically to the suspects. – H T  D  14:28, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Reading into it, it looks like a ex post facto law now as it increases the penalty to the violation of the new law before it was passed. – H T  D  17:13, 1 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment I think a suitable blurb, especially focusing on the arrest of Sudipto Sen should be used. Further, a proper copyedit need to be done before putting it on main page. Amartyabag   TALK2ME  13:19, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Unless we can justify a date in the past week, this story would pre-date the 2013 Dhaka building collapse. Thus, even if "posted", it would be too old to go on the template, thus this discussion would be moot. It's a shame as the article is quite good. LukeSurlt c 16:47, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) started its investigation in state of Assam yesterday, the WB assembly passed a law to investigate and prosecute ponzi fund promoters.
 * ALT2: Federal agencies start investigating the largest ponzi collapse of India.
 * ALT3: Special laws are enacted to investigate the largest ponzi collapse of India.
 * LegalEagle (talk) 17:03, 30 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - significant financial event; need to keep pattern of Comment/Support &mdash; TORTOISE  WRATH  03:42, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Support as a significant financial story from India. Ponzi schemes and their reflection on the investors are a very big deal anywhere.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 10:11, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Question: Can someone refresh me on how ITN handled the Madoff scandal? When was it first posted? – H T  D  14:28, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * As per the talk page templates the Madoff scandal was mentioned twice on ITN: 14 Dec 08 and 12 March 09; The 14 Dec blurb most probably was: Bernard L. Madoff is arrested by the FBI, charged with cheating investors of US$50 billion through a Ponzi scheme. discussion at look under Dec 13; The 12 March blurb was: American businessman Bernard Madoff pleads guilty to 11 charges surrounding his US$65-billion Ponzi scheme. The discussion can be found at  look under March 12. The scam had unravelled in the first week of Dec 08.LegalEagle (talk) 15:40, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * So following the Madoff precedent, we'd post this if the suspects have been caught and if s/he/they plead/s guilty (or not guilty). Has any of these events happened already? – H T  D  16:38, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * P.S.: I dunno if it's possible to post this twice. Madoff swindled $65 billion. This one's $4-6 billion. – H T  D  16:43, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * This time the guy was caught on 23 April, but if we go by that cutoff date then the news will not feature on ITN as it would be 'stale'; my initial proposal was given the rolling nature of the scam the blurb should say something like big ponzi scheme caused loss of money and post it at the top of ITN, however the consensus opinion is there should be a cut off point, so I gave an alt blurb that special law was brought to investigate the scam. This law was passed on 30 April, which make the article eligible to be posted on ITN. I find that no one has per se opposed the article, so I hope as soon as we can agree to a blurb we can put the ready marker.LegalEagle (talk) 17:06, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The suggested blurbs at the template above should be revised to suggest that a law has been passed as a result of, or after, the arrest took place. The revised blurbs you suggested are clumsy at best; it suggests that the law was passed for the sole purpose of the prosecution of the suspects and would've not been applied to anyone else: This is how "Special laws are enacted to investigate the largest ponzi collapse of India." reads to me, especially with the use of the phrase "Special law". Your other alt blurbs, alts 1 and 2, don't emphasize any milestone to the event: "Government investigates largest ponzi scheme in India"... well, they should, right? – H T  D  17:13, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Suggested alt blurb:
 * "The Parliament of India passes a new law proscribing heavier penalties on ponzi scheme fraudsters after the largest ponzi collapse in India unravels."
 * This is somewhat crude, but this emphasizes that the law was passed not for the sole purpose of prosecuting the suspects in this case, but for future and apparently past suspects too. – H T  D  17:20, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * FYI, The law was passed by the West Bengal Legislative Assembly. I support the above the blurb proposed by User:Howard the Duck, with the necessary correction as suggested by me.  Amartyabag   TALK2ME  17:44, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * When was the last time ITN posted about subnational legislation? Heh. 17:55, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * What about (ALT4): "Central Bureau of Investigation starts investigating the largest ponzi collapse of India." To give a brief background, under Indian laws federal agencies can only start investigation when the state government requests it, in this case two different state governments requested it. And to reiterate my earlier point, the focus of the blurb is the scam and not the incidental news.LegalEagle (talk) 18:30, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Just how often the CBI investigates? How many cases a year? Is a CBI investigation an event in itself?
 * We already missed the opportunity on reporting the scam per se. If you want to report on the scam per se, come back when the suspects have pleaded (have they?) or just accept the fact that the incidental news would have to be the focus of the blurb. "Central Bureau of Investigation starts investigating the largest ponzi collapse of India." isn't news as much as ITN is concerned. CBI investigates the largest ponzi scheme, parliament passes the largest national budget, company suffers largest loss, football club buys most expensive player (lol this actually made it into ITN). These are normal occurrences; these bodies are expected to do that. – H T  D  18:41, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * CBI investigation in itself cannot qualify as a significant event. Making the law by calling a special session of the assembly is somewhat significant but definitely pales in comparison to the scam itself. (ALT4A): "The West Bengal Legislative Assembly passes a new law proscribing heavier penalties on ponzi scheme fraudsters within a week after the largest ponzi collapse in India unravels." As for trying again for ITN when the accused plead, I doubt if the editors then would agree that the news is significant.LegalEagle (talk) 18:59, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * That's the rub in this nomination. All those who supported this who were outside India supported the original blurb found above. This is actually an easy support. The thing is would these same people accept a blurb focusing on the events after the arrests, such as the CBI starting its investigation or even the passage of law by the West Bengal assembly?
 * If Madoff was posted when he pleaded, it is very much valid argument for this issue to be posted too once the suspects enter their pleas. How long will that take? If none of the intervening events are notable enough we would really have to settle on the pleadings, then maybe the judgment of the case so that it'll be posted twice too. – H T  D  19:17, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

First precedents have little value on ITN, Second I tend to agree with you that the ALT blurbs focussing on post scam news are not 'significant'. Hence I would recommend that unless the editors feel we can go with the original blurb (or some variation there of), let us pack up the discussion.LegalEagle (talk) 19:31, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I know that, but the facts of this case, or least the fact that it is a billion-dollar ponzi scheme, may warrant anyone to invoke the Madoff precedent, although it's just above 9% of the money swindled in the Madoff case. If it's stale now, we can always attempt a new nom once a significant development happens -- in this case "significant" meaning the development has to directly involve the suspects, such as entering pleas -- unlike the new developments where the suspects are merely spectators (passing of a new law) or at best, passive participants (new investigation). – H T  D  19:50, 1 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Support : Good coverage of subject. A minor copy edit to be done. Bishnu Saikia⇒ ✉ 19:11, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Copy edit done. I won't touch the "Aftermath" section until it has calmed down a bit more. (Probably someone else will get to it before I can get back to it.) I do have a question about number units. When "billion" is referenced in the lede, is it long form or short form? I did the second conversion in the lede based on the first (original) conversion ratio and short form billion. If the long form billion was intended, adjust the second conversion by 1,000. - Tenebris 14:31, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Question - why has this not been posted? Not one person opposed the posting (which is nearly the definition of consensus), article is substantial, copy edit is done. - Tenebris 02:27, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The supports are unanimously for the events described the blurb, which are older than currently oldest item. The suggested blurbs elsewhere are incremental updates and have not been supported. – H T  D  03:44, 4 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you. The following proposed blurb is supported and specifically dates to 30 April, which makes it more recent than at least two of the current ITN postings. I support posting this now because this is the kind of story that later vanishes off the international radar for much the same reason that the after-effects of Haiti's earthquake vanished off the international radar. The notability of the original event is clear, but memory is short.
 * At the request of the Assam government, India's Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) begins an investigation into India's largest ever Ponzi scheme collapse, which has so far resulted in an estimated loss of 4-6 billion USD.
 * - Tenebris 03:13, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd recommend to copy the template above and paste it with a new blurb after this message so the people can judge if the blurb is acceptable. The people above supported the suggested blurb above and not the new ones that had since been proposed. – H T  D  03:17, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Done.
 * Incidentally, what you describe automatically creates a systemic (NOT personal) bias against large-scale stories in third-world countries which break over a slower period of time and do not have a clear beginning or end. When these stories initially break onto the headlines of international news, ITN discussion is based on which exact benchmark should be used, and the story is delayed as a result. By the time agreement is achieved, the original blurb is too stale for ITN. By the time the benchmark has been achieved, the story is no longer front-page news outside the third-world country, no matter how large or how many million poor people continue to be affected. At the same time, an equivalent first-world story would still be making headlines, even after that kind of delay, so -- strictly following the rules of ITN -- the first-world story would make ITN, but the third-world story would not. - Tenebris 15:53, 5 May 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.254.156.223 (talk)

[Posted] Willem-Alexander

 * Right above this the instructions say: 'Please do not... add sections for new dates. These are automatically generated (at midnight UTC) by a bot; creating them manually breaks this process.' So well done, when midnight arrives the bot will break and do something stupid. Delete this section and wait until the day when the event actually happens before nominating. Modest Genius talk 21:39, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I've temporarily moved this to the 29th to avoid bot-breaking. We can move it up in a couple of hours. LukeSurlt c 22:28, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Now moved to April 30. --LukeSurlt c 07:35, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This still ended up breaking the Portal:Current Events box, which I've now fixed. Modest Genius talk 10:00, 1 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Support as it's a change in head-of-state, with the simpler main blurb. LukeSurlt c 22:27, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. This is ITNR (the succession of a head of state "where head of state is not an elected position") and a very noteworthy event for The Netherlands. 331dot (talk) 01:31, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support as ITN/R, with something like the alt blurb. Perhaps, if it desired to make it a bit shorter, "Willem-Alexander becomes King of the Netherlands on the abdication of his mother Beatrix." In other royal successions, we usually mention the death - and since most new monarchs succeed through death rather than abdication, if we don't mention the abdication people might think that Queen Beatrix has died. Neljack (talk) 01:40, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Not Updated Odd there is so little interest. I don't speak Dutch, though. μηδείς (talk) 03:00, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, subject to update and moving of article to Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands once he is officially King. Mjroots (talk) 05:16, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, Willem-Alexander is now King and his article has been moved. The articles are in the process of being updated. &#160; thayts &#160;t&#160;  08:43, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, but I prefer the phrasing "Willem-Alexander acccedes to the throne of the Netherlands". If your a monarch you accede you don't just become one. --Andrew 12:19, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posting. I'll go with the first blurb for the time being, we can modify later. Also, someone upload the photo, please. --Tone 12:34, 30 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I think too that the circumstances in which he became king are relevant too. This isn't an ordinary, "the queen is dead, long live the king!" thing its the result of an abdication, which is noteable. I know we covered it when it was announced but it's relevant again now. Strange how two people have renounced their thrones this year; hope Lizzy don't follow suit --Andrew 16:21, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It isn't that extraordinary for the Netherlands, both Queen Wilhelmina and Queen Juliana abdicated too. But I agree that it could be noted. &#160; thayts &#160;t&#160;  11:04, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I've expanded the blurb slightly per the above suggestions. -- Jayron  32  20:06, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Jason Collins

 * Question (and I think this sort of thing is good and should be posted, by the way), you say "active" player in the "four major NA sports leagues", that's not really clear to me as a non-North American. And who else came out from those leagues, and when?  The Rambling Man (talk) 17:45, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * In other words, he is the only player who is actively participating in either the NBA, NFL, MLB, or NHL to openly come out as gay. Others have either kept it to themselves or close family/friends while playing, or have announced it long into retirement, for fear that it would have a negative effect on their professional careers (for example, teams avoiding signing them because they are gay, out of discrimination), or their livelihood (other players discriminating against them, public discrimination and ridicule). I don't believe that there is any kind of list to my knowledge of athletes who have come out as gay post-retirement because of these same reasons, but likely we will likely see some names in news articles of athletes who have either advocated for gay rights (such as Brendon Ayanbadejo) or who have came out following their retirement. --  Anc516  (Champs!) (Talk ▪ Contribs) 17:57, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * According to the article on this subject on TSN, John Amaechi (NBA), Esera Tuaolo (NFL) and Billy Bean (MLB) have all come out post-retirement. Also, there have been a few retired MLS players who came out recently, as well as several WNBA players. --Plasma Twa 2 17:53, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The main point of the "four major sports leagues" is that this is the first time an active player in a team sport has come out, at least in North America. There's been all sorts of consternation about how players would not like having to share a locker room with a gay teammate. A handful of players have come out after retirement (Billy Bean is the first that comes to mind, also John Amaechi) but not while active. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:50, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it was more the "four major NA sports leagues", that doesn't actually seem to include Canada in the link, I'm just a little uncertain the current blurb phrasing is spot on (nor accessible to everyone across the globe...) The Rambling Man (talk) 17:56, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * (Muboshgu, please watch out when replying. You erased my comment when you posted) Oppose because this really is an American-centric item. That gets thrown around a lot, but Collins is not the first athlete to come out as gay while competing. There have been several notable athletes worldwide who have come out while playing - Gareth Thomas specifically comes to mind - so I don't see why weight should be given specifically to a player because he is the first in North America. --Plasma Twa <font color="#FF0000">2 17:50, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * While you're correct in that he is not the first to do so worldwide, the four major North American sports leagues arguably have a far more global reach and impact (in both sport and culture/society) than the Welsh Rugby Union for example. --  Anc516  (Champs!) (Talk ▪ Contribs) 18:11, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Clarification sought: what is this "four major North American sports leagues" concept?  Do you mean "four major "USA" leagues"?  The Rambling Man (talk) 18:24, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Canada has at least one team in the NBA, MLB and NHL. None in the NFL, but the Buffalo Bills do play some of their games in Toronto. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:25, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok, thanks. This article is a trainwreck, it would be better if we could find some other milestone than relate it to some arbitrary "top four leagues in North America" concept. In other words, if he was the first ever active NBA player to come out, then I'd definitely vote support.... The Rambling Man (talk) 18:35, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * He is the first ever active NBA player to come out.
 * What's the British equivalent of the "Big Four"? Premier League, English Premiership (rugby union)... what else? Certainly not the British Basketball League (w00t) nor the Elite Ice Hockey League; if any of the active players from the latter two came out British media would've given the same amount of "hype" just as American media to a similar case in the National Lacrosse League, but probably American media would've went nuts if then college football player like Manti Te'o came out. – H T  D  18:37, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Since he is the first active player in one of North America's big four leagues to come out, then he is by definition the first active NBA player to do so.  As to that trainwreck of an article, it must be noted that the concept of "big four" is itself arbitrary as it limits to the top level league of NA's four most popular sports.  But from a pure American perspective, NASCAR and perhaps even MLS might be ahead of the NHL. Resolute 18:41, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * There is no concept of a big four in most other places. THat's why I'm hoping we can refine the blurb.  I'd opt for keeping it specific to the NBA, at least that way some of the global audience here will understand it.  The "big four" thing is entirely arbitrary and therefore has no place here.  The Rambling Man (talk) 18:42, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Most sources just say first from a "major team sport", which most in NA would have a natural sense of. The Major professional sports leagues in the United States and Canada was meant as a helpful link for those outside NA.—Bagumba (talk) 18:46, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Which isn't very helpful... That article does need a complete rewrite. – H T  D  18:52, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I guess the reason why the "big 4" concept was used is to illustrate the fact that Collins is playing in a high-profile professional league, not within the levels of Triple-A baseball (or Football League Championship) and below, or at "top flight" leagues with niche markets. – H T  D  18:52, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The "big four" concept is key from a North American perspective, but I see your point. FWIW, the BBC has him posted on their main page, noting he was the first from "one of North America's major leagues", which might be sufficient. Resolute 18:48, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately the page is a complete disaster for newcomers, I couldn't really determine why the "big four" were called as such, this isn't North American Wikipedia, it's English language Wikipedia so we have billions of readers from outside North America, many more than from inside North America, so let's be accurate and "to the point" here. Stick with NBA, avoid this arbitrary "big four" silliness.  The Rambling Man (talk) 18:49, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Figuring out how to word the blurb notwithstanding, Support. While a NA-centric event, it is still on the front page of the BBC, CBC, American outlets, and is currently the the top trending story on Twitter worldwide. Resolute 18:52, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed. But my BBC version says "the first active male athlete in a major American professional team sport to do so." so doesn't include Canada at all.  We need to fix the blurb before we give it major support.  The Rambling Man (talk) 18:56, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose It's even ridiculous to me that someone was so bold to nominate such thing for the main page. Wikipedia is not a tabloid to document every scandalous and embarrassing story that originates anywhere in the world and gets importance because the readers feel it's entertaining. Can you tell me how this one makes impact in the world? Specifically, what is the impact on the LGBT movement? What are the reactions from the highest authorities in the world about it? I'm pretty sure that you cannot provide suitable answers on these questions. Even a simple LGBT parade would make more impact than this one. He's not the first one and not the last who does it in the world. More important people are LGBT and were first in their fields as such, but we didn't post each of them even if they were more important than Collins.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 19:19, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * So, Kiril, why not tell us how you really feel? μηδείς (talk) 19:29, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * On the contrary, the news is celebrating this as being a groundbreaking barrier that will allow other gay team sport athletes to come out. CNN called it "he biggest move of his career and it's off the court.". Former US President Bill Clinton supported the announcement, sponsor Nike said "We are a company committed to diversity and inclusion."—Bagumba (talk) 19:33, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "Can you tell me how this one makes impact in the world?"
 * Good question. I dunno the answer. I was busy researching on how Man Utd's title made an impact to people in Somalia. Is this in the ITN criteria?
 * "What is the impact on the LGBT movement?"
 * Probably more than an gay pride parade?
 * "What are the reactions from the highest authorities in the world about it?"
 * Guess what, Obama and Clinton had something to say. – H T  D  19:35, 29 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I think you are underestimating the amount of idol worship that sports generates, and the impact of having someone come out - even a journeyman at the end of his career - can have on others. Agency France Presse is calling this a "landmark moment", and here would be the response from the White House and a former US president. Resolute 19:45, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Kiril, this is neither "scandalous" nor an "embarrassing story", at least not in the modern world. Perhaps you need to reassess what is considered the norm these days before reacting in such an embarrassing manner.  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:03, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * He's a gay, so what? It's nothing else than his own choice. I really don't like it but it's not up to me to say what is good or bad for someone else. Why to discriminate people in this manner? Or you think that we should simply solidarise with those living in a society like the one in the United States?--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 20:29, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This is notable because so few (a disproportionate amount of) professional sportspeople actively come out. Particularly in butch sports in butch leagues.  This is "in the news" remember, not "what Kiril or TRM or whoever else likes to see".  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:35, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes it is and I agree with you on it. But, at least, I feel to have the right to express my opinion here.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 20:40, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support as groundbreaking with strong reactions "Jason Collins has forever changed the face of sports," by Human Rights Campaign, Clinton, Obama, and so forth all reacting to the news. Not your ordinary tabloid story, but like the media said, as groundbreaking as Jackie Robinson statement. Secret account 19:41, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with all the support here for the actual news, I'd just like to make sure we do this properly and post a decent blurb that English-speaking people can get the most of. The "big four" thing concerns me as I've followed a tiny bit of NFL and NBA and never heard it before, so it would be better, in my mind, to make this blurb tighter and thus more effective.  Let's not try to overblow it.  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:50, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It would be foolish to restrict the blurb to the NBA. There has been plenty of discussion in the North American sports press about the absence of declared gay players in the major men's professional team sports. That's restated in numerous press accounts on Collins' announcement: Sports Illustrated, The Guardian, Reuters. IMO, the terminology should be "major men's professional team sports in North America". --Orlady (talk) 20:12, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Which is perfect as far as I'm concerned. I just wanted to avoid this pseudo "big four" element.  Suggest you revise the blurb Orlady, if you'd be so kind?  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:18, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Revised the altblurb. I didn't revisit this discussion in a timely fashion... --Orlady (talk) 19:10, 30 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support groundbreaking announcement. Claims that it has zero impact on the world as a whole are both wrong (as demonstrated by the reaction) and irrelevant (most stories we post have very little impact outside of their immediate area). If it is more clear to just say NBA, that is fine by me, as long is it is understood we won't be posting the first NFL player, first MLBer, etc. when they occur. --ThaddeusB (talk) 19:53, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Milestone in breaking down homophobia and definition of "masculinity" in male team sports. In addition to BBC, news.com.au in Australia calls it "landmark for US sports".—Bagumba (talk) 19:57, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment I've replace the alt-blurb with a more global blurb, and one which doesn't link to the same article twice. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:01, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree that "North American" is inaccurate, and discussing its removal at Talk:Jason_Collins, but it would be a disservice to limit his impact to the NBA. There are enough sources that place this in the context of being the first for a "major American professional team".—Bagumba (talk) 20:12, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per all the reasoning given above. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:08, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Please specify which blurb you'd prefer and why. The Rambling Man (talk)
 * They both seem about the same to me. No preference. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:59, 29 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment Very nice, but in the spirit of Wikipedia I'll accept every decision that will be made by the majority here. It will be really funny to see a blurb saying that a person is a gay on the main page of an encyclopedia. Some people clearly have an agenda to make Wikipedia a prominent place to promote discrimination of any sort. Lol.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 20:13, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * At least in this case, any "agenda" is a reflection of the media. This is hardly a case of WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS.—Bagumba (talk) 20:22, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support as a major milestone of societal change, including the "major sports" language I suggested in my comment above (which I finally posted after about 8 edit conflicts!). --Orlady (talk) 20:15, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong support; my support has everything to do with me being an LGBT ally and an NBA fan, along with the (more relevant to this nomination) fact that this is a landmark, and currently a hot topic on the BBC (Oh yes, THANK you for opening comments on this one BBC). --85.210.102.96 (talk) 20:16, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, but I think that do the issues raised with how to characterize what he's first in, it'd be best to say ... in the "Big Four" North American sports leagues ... The linked article addresses non-Big-Four leagues as well, including several that have openly gay athletes. As to arguments about the notability of a coming-out... it's on the front page of the New York Times website right now; it's clearly a major news story, whether we like it or not. (If anyone would like me to give them my little rant about the speciousness of the "who cares who you sleep with?" notion, they can stop by my talk page... but that's a matter of my personal beliefs, independent from assessment that this is an objectively newsworthy event.) — PinkAmpers  &#38;  <sup style="color:#000;">( Je vous invite à me parler )  20:26, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, and, for what it's worth, I think the "Big Four" modification would work better on the second blurb than the first.... I also generally prefer the second, as it's more succinct, and I don't like how the first one links to his article twice. — PinkAmpers  &#38;  <sup style="color:#000;">( Je vous invite à me parler )  20:30, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Hey Pink&, just wanted to reiterate that this "big four" thing isn't something most people outside the US will get. I'd like to hope we could find a suitable blurb that people outside North America could appreciate, especially with such prominent news?  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:31, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well doesn't the wikilink solve that, TRM? I mean, saying "a major (North) American sports league" is vague and leaves people wondering how we're defining "major", and just mentioning the N.B.A. seems like an understatement... we should mention the broadest way in which it's first, not a more narrow one. — PinkAmpers  &#38;  <sup style="color:#000;">( Je vous invite à me parler )  20:50, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I would suggest major American team sport i.e. major American team sport . "Major American team sport" is multiply sourced and not some WP:OR, and the linked article, though in need of work, is the best we have unless some sources about Collins go into more detail about "major".—Bagumba (talk) 20:56, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm happy to use wikilinked articles on the mainpage but this one linking to the big four needs substantial work before it should be exposed to the general public. Why can't we just we tighten this up and state the actual facts rather than use these dubious and nebulous terms?  (I reiterate, I like the way the BBC have placed it: "Collins has come out as gay, the first active male athlete in a major American professional team sport to do so"), it's prominent and accurate and not parochial.  The Rambling Man (talk) 21:02, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No problem with mirroring BBC. If Major professional sports leagues in the United States and Canada is deemed unsuitable to link in ITN, it would still be available in Jason Collins. Some sources that identify the "big 4" are now identified at Talk:Jason_Collins, but would itemizing the other leagues in the blurb make it too heavy?—Bagumba (talk) 21:27, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The Times went with the itemization approach&mdash;"The announcement makes Collins a pioneer of sorts: the first player in the N.B.A., the N.F.L., the N.H.L. or Major League Baseball to come out while still pursuing his career". Actually, though, the more I think about it, I guess saying "four major North American sports leagues" makes it clear enough. — PinkAmpers  &#38;  <sup style="color:#000;">( Je vous invite à me parler )  21:32, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. So what? Whilst the lack of openly-gay professional sportsmen is regrettable, the whole reason why this is disappointing is that their sexual preferences make no difference whatsoever to their sporting notability. 'Sportsman announces utterly irrelevant fact about their personal life' is not a story. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 21:43, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh and to everyone saying 'this will break down barriers for others', Justin Fashanu failed to do so and should be a cautionary tale. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 21:57, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If this "is not a story", then why do all the news outlets think it's a story? – Muboshgu (talk) 21:59, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * For the same reason they run the winners of reality TV programmes and celebrity gossip columns. ITN has higher standards of encyclopaedic content in its stories. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 22:58, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree on higher standards, which is why sources that identify its historical context were identified and discussed. It is why the American story is listed on the front page of http://www.bbc.co.uk/ under "News", not "Sports news".—Bagumba (talk) 23:05, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The BBC tailors its pages based on IP geolocation. It's not on that page at all for me. Besides, even if it was it wouldn't change my opinion. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 23:12, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't be surprised by tailoring to location. FWIW, here is an archive of the BBC front page.—Bagumba (talk) 23:20, 29 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support This is highly significant.  Openly gay male professional athletes are extremely rare in the world's popular sports leagues.  I support the first blurb--this is notable precisely because its significance extends beyond the NBA, and in the media everywhere its significance is being discussed in a broad context.--Johnsemlak (talk) 21:45, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I do support reducing the blurb to 'major North Americans sports league' or a similar wording.--Johnsemlak (talk) 21:51, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support on the condition that this be the last sports outing item we ever post--it gets very tired and very ideology-pushing very quick. μηδείς (talk) 22:32, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Billie Jean King, Greg Louganis, etc., etc. μηδείς (talk) 22:34, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Those are individual sports in which LGBT athletes are more common, again read the news sources and especially the reactions, never in a major American team sport that until recently has been very homophobic. Secret account 22:41, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The athletes I named were top of their game household names. No one's ever heard of Collins.  This is recentism. μηδείς (talk) 00:22, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "This is recentism" is perhaps the most ironic argument ever made at ITN. By definition, everything here is recentism. Resolute 14:12, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Recentism is the viewpoint that the right now is more important than the past because we are experiencing it ourselves. The weight some are giving this lacks historical perspective.  There is no way one could compare the career and importance of Collins to someone like Billie Jean King whose impact was huge, controversial, and truly groundbreaking.  (It was in regards to her that as a gay child I first learned what a gay person was, even though she was not officially "out" it was an open secret.)  Gay people know there are gay professional athletes.  The only impact here will be in a very small minority of American sports fans who maintain the illusion that gay men are sissies who can't play sports.  That might be of interest to some of us who didn't already know that's false.  But it's totally lacking in historical perspective and it is not of encyclopedic importance. μηδείς (talk) 16:31, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Of course this is entirely fallacious. This announcement should set a precedent to encourage the other thousands of gay professional sports players to come out.  Given that Bill Clinton thought it worthy of his comments, along with contemporary sports stars like Kobe Bryant, it's clear there's an issue here that is being addressed by this.  It may only impact "a very small minority of sports fans" in the US (although that's "citation needed" territory) but it's a landmark moment for actual sports athletes, both in the US and globally, who need the encouragement to be themselves in the face of a hostile, third-world-country attitude to most male sportsmen who don't conform to the predictable uber-masculine norm.  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:14, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "Should"? "Issue"? "Need encouragement"? Again, your condescending solicitation for us poor crippled and underappreciated homosexuals is not necessary, thanks. μηδείς (talk) 02:25, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Male in a major team sports league is what is distinguishing in this case, and why lesbian Brittney Griner from the WNBA a few weeks ago was not.—Bagumba (talk) 22:50, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Marking ready. Update is sufficient and there's consensus to post.  Hot Stop     (Talk)   23:19, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Is there a consensus on the blurb? That's crucial here given the problematic wording.--Johnsemlak (talk) 00:57, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - An important milestone.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 23:58, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment There was some earlier concern about the use of "four major North American sports leagues" in the blurb, but it is mentioned by ESPN and Associated Press, whileThe Score in Canada also calls him "only openly gay professional male athlete actively participating in a major North American team sport." Orig blurb is verifiable.—Bagumba (talk) 00:59, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I've updated altblurb from the previous version that was deemed too restrictive.—Bagumba (talk) 01:39, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's great news, and I'd like to support, but on balance I have to oppose. Other top-level players in major team sports have come out - there's Gareth Thomas in rugby and Steven Davies in cricket, for example - so the only distinguishing feature in this case seems to be that he's the first in the US. But I don't think being the first in a particular country is enough - that could result in lots of postings as such firsts occur in different countries. Neljack (talk) 02:14, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Not ready The update is insufficient. --  tariq abjotu  03:17, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Can you elaborate so that it can be addressed?—Bagumba (talk) 03:37, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * ITN gives a guideline of what should be included in an update. An example of what could get here is some information about how people in and outside of the sports world reacted to this, and why/how they believe his coming out marked/marks a milestone. --  tariq abjotu  04:20, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I am a vocal supporter of human rights, but I'm not sure if this type of news should be lauded as an "achievement". I think this nomination (and the media) is going about it the wrong way. The focus should not be about "look at how many homosexuals are present in this or that sports league", but rather about how accepting that group is of all people. You could liken it to using the word "feminism" instead of "gender equality"; one is highlighting the divisive nature of the subject, while the other is much more productive in its delivery. It's a subtle difference which may or may not justify opposing this particular nomination, but it's a difference that should be taken seriously. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  03:24, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. There's no way that a bench-player free agent coming out is more important than NCAA championships for equivalent sports, which were not posted. Furthermore, if we're looking to post minorities in major sports, why didn't we post Jeremy Lin, as the first Asian-American basketball player, who was similarly a "first X player" and had a much greater impact for his team? Because that really wasn't notable either; rather, the media frenzy was immense.  Spencer T♦ C 06:22, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this didn't turn out to be an immense media event... and Wataru Misaka is the first Asian-American in the NBA. Probably the MLB had someone earlier. – H T  D  06:32, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong Oppose. It seems everyone has forgotten about Martina Navratilova, who "came out of the closet", when Collins was only TWO years old. There's just nothing new here. Whatever "barrier" he seems to be breaking had only been recreated out of people's forgetfulness. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 08:14, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. It's a personal matter of a single human being, that happens to be tabloid news. Yet it is totally irrelevant for the rest of the world. --bender235 (talk) 08:17, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I guess that's why a former and current POTUS have commented on it, as well as people around the world in and out of sports. In the future such an issue might be "a personal matter", but this first person to do so isn't. As long as homosexuality is a death penalty offense in a few places, and second-class elsewhere, this is not "irrelevant for the rest of the world".  Navratilova didn't play a team sport, which has different dynamics than an individual sport. 331dot (talk) 09:35, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The day the opening piece on the CBS Evening News is legitimately "tabloid news", I'll throw away my television. "Tabloid news" would be "SCANDALOUS photos discovered of a certain NBA center long thought to be a confirmed bachelor". Collins described himself as "starting the conversation", so I think it's safe to say he knew this wouldn't be a "personal matter of a single human being".
 * Also, as others have pointed out here, the issue of global relevance is neither meaningful (the fuck do I care about the Icelandic parliamentary elections?) nor accurate (there are thousands, if not millions, of Americans who aim to play major-league sports someday, and presumably a representative portion of them are LGBT). — PinkAmpers  &#38;  <sup style="color:#000;">( Je vous invite à me parler )  12:08, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Ready again I updated the Personal Life section to satisfy the update requirements. Should be good to go now. --  Anc516  (Champs!) (Talk ▪ Contribs) 14:01, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not ready as the number of opposes supported with pretty strong arguments has rapidly increased. We should halt the nomination and wait for additional users to comment on it. It also doesn't make sense the nominator to mark his proposed nomination as ready. Please let any other user to do it instead of you.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 15:21, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * We're in a poition now where it would be good if an admin could close one way or the other. No need to unnecessarily extend the discussion. --LukeSurlt c 15:24, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * For the record, I closed the discussion as "no consensus" at this point but my edit has been reverted (not particularly happy that the direct reason has not been given!). Here, I point to the fact that the same-sex marriages in NZ and France (also LGBT-related stories) have not been posted due to a lack of consensus, despite receiving a significant media coverage (France probably more than this particular case, in worldwide scope). --Tone 16:34, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Regarding impact, Christian Science Monitor wrote of Collins' likely impact to gay rights "given the coverage it is likely to receive and the interest major league team sports generate in the US, indeed the world."—Bagumba (talk) 16:54, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Big story which attracted great interest of the media and our readers. Article is currently the most visited on the English Wikipedia with more than 300.000 page views yesterday.-- В и к и  T  16:00, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Four new opposes actually. One is an WP:IDONTLIKEIT and can be summarily dismissed.  The other three all made arguments of emotion that were already rebutted. Resolute 16:29, 30 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support This wasn't a flash in the pan, and is still the lead story on CNN today. The article update is good. --IP98 (talk) 16:07, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Changed to ready Article updated with text from Christian Science Monitor about Collins and interest in major league sports likely driving the trend of gay right in the US. Coupled with aforementioned support by presidents and major multinational Nike, the impact is clear, especially in light of the usual caveat to not "complain about an event only relating to a single country".  Use altblurb.—Bagumba (talk) 16:44, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I was just coming here to mention that CSM article. There's a reason why we're still talking about this in 2013: gay rights aren't as far along as some of us would like to think. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:56, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * And even for those crying "agenda pushing", this is the majority view in the media. Ignoring what is prevalent in the media is pushing a personal agenda to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. If we were going to go there, can we please stop with the obsession of multiple people dying in one accident/massacre. —Bagumba (talk) 17:05, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I'm all for LGBT rights, but the kind of progress we should be considering "news" is the kind that happens on a national level (like the recent French, New Zealand and Irish legal changes), not the personal life of one semi-obscure sportsman. It's the kind of small gossip-column news that seems more like clutching at straws than genuine forward progress. GRAPPLE   X  17:12, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not gossip. He wrote an article in a national magazine and came out.  Since he is a "nobody", it must be a big deal if the rest of the non-sports world actually cares.  Again, American Brittney Griner, college national women's player of the year and first overall pick by the WNBA didnt get this type of coverage when she came out only a few weeks ago.  Sure, it is a statement on society's obsession with the big 4 leagues, and bias over gay team sport athletes vs lesbians or non-team sports, but it is a reflection for better or worse of the press' interest, not some other agenda or WP obsession with gossip.—Bagumba (talk) 17:25, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's gossip because we're attempting to pass off a person's personal life as news, not because it's considered speculative or unfounded. Like I already said, to consider one person's personal life as something front page-worthy, especially when we still haven't posted national news stories about gay rights legislation affecting thousands, maybe tens of thousands, of people, is petty and small. GRAPPLE   X  18:15, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Your point about news stories about gay rights legislation is probably correct (though I'm not an ITN regular). However, for all that some look down on sports, something like sports and Magic Johnson announcing he had HIV or perhaps this about Collins can have just as much impact. I do agree that encyclopedias should be discerning relative to the usual celebrity gossip regarding dating, debauchery, adultery, etc, but I advise to not downplay sports' crossover impact on the "real world". It also wouldn't seem right to penalize this news item for mistakes in omitting others in the past.—Bagumba (talk) 18:26, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. An American basketball player declares he is gay. Fail to see how either it is 'landmark' or 'significant'. ITN is not Sun.LegalEagle (talk) 17:38, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Yes, no justification yet as to why this event is more important than all the gay sports people elsewhere in the world who have come out. The particular sport is irrelevant. HiLo48 (talk) 17:50, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You know what, I think the sport is relevant. A gay snooker player isn't going to encounter homophobic chants.  A gay rugby player would certainly face homophobia in the midst of the game but probably not from the crowd in general.  A gay footballer or basketball player (how many of these are there?  Globally?) will face all manner of prejudice.  This is an example of a person who has come out in a sport which is global, in a sport where no other gay man has come out, has been recognised for his open-ness by former US presidents, has nearly 10k news reports (that's reports, not hits, reports) on Google.  This is most certainly "in the news".  The particular sport is one which has a global, hence the bravery of one man is justifiably being acknowledged as a landmark event.  The fact that dozens of fellow NBA players have also made supporting remarks just backs this whole thing up.  The Rambling Man (talk) 18:01, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The sport may be "global". The competition referred to is not. And global news balance is distorted. Puppy rescues, and celebrity romances and their babies in America make it on to the news in other countries, especially if nice film footage is available. HiLo48 (talk) 18:19, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This article details some of the impact outside of "gossip". Nothing is truly "global", and I'm sure you didn't mean to compare this to WP:DOGBITESMAN stories.—Bagumba (talk) 18:33, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The sport is global, the competition is globally recognised as the premier competition. And if you don't like "global news balance", perhaps commenting at ITN at what is "in the news" isn't really your thing?  The Rambling Man (talk) 18:42, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Are you telling me to shut up? I made an observation. A perfectly valid one. If you don't like it, please discuss it rationally and keep it nice here. HiLo48 (talk) 21:12, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Modest Genius had the most compelling argument. The news is essentially that a professional sportsperson revealed a minor personal detail that has no connection to his athletic performance. It's essentially tabloid fodder, and we're an encyclopedia. ITN doesn't have to post everything the mainstream press posts if we feel it's not very relevant for an encyclopedia. --hydrox (talk) 17:56, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If it was a "minor personal detail", it wouldn't have resulted in the response it's gotten. Compare this to Medeis' post below to see tabloid fodder. This is far from that. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:46, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Removed ready - There is still no consensus for posting this on the main page given the totality of the !votes.--WaltCip (talk) 17:58, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support That this story is being opposed as not news while sitting just up the page from a posted story about a spacecraft that stopped working, is funny. This is a news story. If Wikipedia has a suitably updated article about it, post it on ITN. 212.139.240.108 (talk) 19:12, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Something's "being in the news" does not alone make it suitable for ITN: FOX Sofia Vergara: I am not always a 'sex kitten' and HuffPo Sofia Vergara: The Problem With My Boobs. μηδείς (talk) 19:21, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Apples and oranges. Do I have to explain the difference between an openly gay athlete in a team sport versus the typical tabloid trash? – Muboshgu (talk) 19:46, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Is it AGF or not to assume the tabloid reference was a red herring?—Bagumba (talk) 19:59, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The point was that this news story, as of about two hours ago, had over 7,000 Google News hits (not just "hits", "news hits" for those who find it difficult to distinguish between them. If this needs further explanation, please let me know or start an AN/I or whatever), unlike the examples given above.  I think most of us understand what "in the news" means, i.e. not just a single article on a single website.  The examples given are, frankly, beyond absurd, disruptive, an unnecessary non-sequitur and a waste of this community's time.  Embarrassing.  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:01, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose for the sake of consistency. I don't think this can be described as tabloid nonsense. But we just failed to post arguably the biggest LGBT rights story for France in a couple of centuries. Formerip (talk) 20:10, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I assume you also opposed the previous story you referred to? Otherwise, two wrongs (rejecting this news item as well) don't make a right.—Bagumba (talk) 20:22, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No, sometimes they do. Maintaining balance is a good thing. Formerip (talk) 20:26, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure both the New Zealand and France nominations had consensus to post, though a vocal minority shut them down. What is this, ITN or the United States Senate? – Muboshgu (talk) 20:52, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * More on impact guardian.co.uk: "For those of us invested in both the two quite different worlds of pro sports and the LGBT rights movement, Monday was a banner day, as professional sports had long been seen as the final frontier of LGBT acceptance."
 * More on impact 2 Tennis player Martina Navratilova, who came out as a lesbian in an individual sport 30 years ago, calls Collins a "game-changer" for team sports with the potential for homophobic coaches affecting playing time or uncomfortable teammates in the locker room.—Bagumba (talk) 21:01, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Proposal The nomination should be closed as soon as possible before it reaches another useless waste of time on something that doesn't have realistic chances for posting.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 21:30, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That remains to be seen; most, though not all, of the oppose comments boil down to WP:IDONTLIKEIT from what I can see. This was the lead story in news outlets around the world(not just on the sports page) and Mr. Collins' page has had hundreds of thousands of views. 331dot (talk) 21:51, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually several of the oppose votes (at a glance, Modest Genius', mine and Hydrox's, I've probably missed a few) are in no way WP:IDONTLIKEIT votes, but accurately point out that this is simply overblowing a personal detail of a celebrity's life—comparable in importance and coverage to, say, Kate Middleton's pregnancy, which we would never have considered posting. I'm still not even slightly convinced that this should be posted when the France story wasn't, because skipping a story with national impact for one that's just personal, we run the risk of seeming overly focussed on sports/North America/the anglosphere/whichever one is going to be griped about first. GRAPPLE   X  21:59, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Again, the France story should've been posted and it's a minor travesty that it wasn't. While this may be receiving a similar level of coverage to Kate Middleton's pregnancy (I'm not sure, I haven't followed the Royals), I think it's clear there's much more significance here. I don't know that you really want to bring up the royal family though, since this has much more significance than that Jubilee we posted. This is a major news story based on its coverage and impact on society. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:16, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict)He was hardly a "celebrity" before this; and while I look forward to the day when this issue is indeed a "personal detail" that doesn't get attention, we aren't there yet. If it was, it wouldn't be getting this attention from the worldwide press, other notable figures in sports, and even political leaders(current and former).  I guess if Jackie Robinson's story was just occurring today, that wouldn't get posted either, since being a different race is just a "personal detail". 331dot (talk) 22:18, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Robinson important for being the absolute first to cross that colour line, not just the first of his gender in his sport in his country? GRAPPLE   X  22:22, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * There had been Black athletes and Black leagues before Robinson, as well as female athletes and some female leagues. What's notable is that this occurred in one of the top professional sports leagues, which for better or worse does not include the WNBA or most individual sports which have had gay players come out.  Top-level team sports are a different dynamic- prior to this some players and others have expressed resentment and an unwillingness to play with gay players(just as some white players expressed unwillingness to play with a Black man). This will greatly change team sports. One doesn't have to be the absolute first at something to be notable for doing it. 331dot (talk) 22:36, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * And it was only in baseball, which is a US sport descended from cricket, which has more worldwide appeal than baseball. —Bagumba (talk) 22:40, 30 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Proposal I ask the opposers to reconsider after (re-)reading Jason_Collins for the impact expressed by people outside of sports and those in LGBT community. Yes, ITN is not tabloid, but "tabloid" seems to be a mischaracterization of this item when those outside tabloids, sports, and even the US are commenting on the story.—Bagumba (talk) 22:33, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Now you're trying to illustrate your point that the opinions of the supporters outweigh those of the opposers regardless of the fact that the majority of users don't think this should be posted. That's why I think it's useless to continue this discussion.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 22:49, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You are free to not participate in this discussion if you feel that it is useless. I also don't think that's what he was doing at all, he was simply asking people to read something and reconsider. 331dot (talk) 22:51, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I question the use of the word "majority". Last I counted, there were more !support votes than !oppose votes. Though not by a huge and overwhelming margin. That's before getting into the merit, and some of the naysayers were WP:IDONTLIKEIT, though certainly not all. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:53, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Simply asking to reconsider is a kind of sneaky agitation which is not in the spirit of Wikipedia. Neither we'll lose something very important nor the world will end if we don't post this one.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 23:00, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Can you show me where on Wikipedia it is written that one cannot ask others to read something and reconsider their views? There was nothing sneaky or nefarious going on here. 331dot (talk) 23:06, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I didn't mention it's a rule and you should distinguish between a rule and something that is coined in the spirit of Wikipedia. If you regard agitation as something useful for the community, then you have drastically different views on the things here. But fair enough. Why to waste my time on something that won't be posted?--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 23:15, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't consider this "agitation" unless there is some evidence of nefarious intent or other reason it was not posted in good faith. 331dot (talk) 23:19, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * As someone who came out in junior high during the Reagan administration, who worked for Christopher Street Magazine, and who wore a pink triangle in places where it was physically unwise for me to do so, and hence would be considered by some a "member of the LGBT community", I can assure you it really doesn't mean anything. μηδείς (talk) 00:17, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * In your opinion; however many other people would disagree. 331dot (talk) 00:42, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * "In my opinion"? Who else's opinion should I have?  It's no less offensive being condescended to as someone who needs special treatment and recognition than it is to be discriminated against: both are forms of prejudice.  I have no problem with Collins's coming out; it simply isn't important outside a certain mindset.  Rather outside two certain mindsets, the identity politics crowd and the bigots.  Neither POV should have weight here. μηδείς (talk) 02:45, 1 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Support This is being covered by a) major news outlets b) as a lead story and c) in a very broad and in-depth manner. Given that, and that we have a decent article to point readers to, I think all evidence points to this being a significant story.  -- Jayron  32  22:54, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted There's a decent update. There's substantial support. It's far from unanimous, but I don't find the reasons for opposing to be stronger than those supporting. I understand there are some people who believe this should not have been a big deal, but, for better or worse, it was/is a big story. The content of the update supports that notion. It is not our job to decide what should be in the news. Also, the argument that this shouldn't be posted because the same-sex marriage in France story wasn't doesn't hold water; that ship has sailed, and the fact that something was or was not posted is not a valid reason for supporting or opposing a story (although I should point out that the story itself received substantial support as well). --  tariq abjotu  00:11, 1 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Just a comment in response to that... (And I'm not trying to argue further against the posting. It's done.) We DO decide "what should be in the news". All the time. Brangelina and everything surrounding them was/is a big story, as are many other similar ones. We don't post them here. I don't know whether our policies say we should be making such judgements, but we do. That means it's perfectly valid for people to argue that something is just a rubbish, tabloid story. Whether any particular one is, is yet another judgement we make. Frequently. HiLo48 (talk) 02:33, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * On the contrary, that story was never the top story in any endeavour of serious journalism, things like CNN, any major network news TV show, major, well respected print news stories, etc. never published anything on the front page/lead story/top news item about celebrity gossip, so it's a bad analogy.  Major news sources gave this story depth of coverage, prominent placement, and the story was covered in sources around the world.  We don't have to make any judgements, because all we need to do is observe where the story appears.  It isn't merely that one can find a news story, it is where and how it is being covered.  So no, we don't have to decide what should be in the news, because Brangelina wasn't in the news, at least not the news that counts for In The News.  -- Jayron  32  05:14, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * In a way, you've just agreed with me, at least to some extent. We DO make judgements, don't we? And the fact that your preferred approach to deciding is different from mine, and others', highlights the problem we have here. HiLo48 (talk) 08:05, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * ITN is meant to steer people to articles on events that are "in the news". It isn't called "what we think is in the news". 331dot (talk) 09:25, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * We make judgement about notability all the time but the claim that this was 'tabloid fodder' was always nonsense and rightly ignored.--Johnsemlak (talk) 13:59, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Strong oppose - guys, this is not the American Wikipedia. Already in the US this isn't actually a real first, but in many European countries this is nothing special. No one cares less which hole some random American sportsman prefers to put his penis in. "Morally commendable" isn't a valid ITN reason. 82.122.103.143 (talk) 23:35, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - While I have no objection to the posting of this story, it does strike me as odd that we have posted it. This is a story with no far-reaching implications for society and civil rights. When discrimination against LGBT people is banned by federal law in the same way that racial discrimination is, that will be a real step forward. However, we had two stories about the legalisation of same-sex marriage in major industrialised nations recently which were not posted despite reasonably strong support. While I usually resist 'other stuff exists' arguments, and do not believe there is any significant pro-US bias in this section of Wikipedia, this does look like a very unbalanced way to report on the LGBT issues that have been in the news lately. I'd like it if an uninvolved admin could find the time to review these decisions. Thank you. AlexTiefling (talk) 07:42, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * There are effects on society and civil rights(which isn't a requirement for posting anything on ITN, but...) as this will change how homosexuals are treated and received in team sports. It could also influence the gay rights movement. 331dot (talk) 09:23, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * There is no evidence that this is true. Again I will raise the counterexamples of Justin Fashanu and Robbie Rogers, who both came out but resulted in no appreciable change to the culture. I still don't support posting this, but won't argue with the posting. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 10:10, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know as much about Fashanu, but Robbie Rodgers retired when he announced. Obviously we can't predict what will happen here but it's a clear milestone (yes, with a number of caveats).--Johnsemlak (talk) 13:57, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Pull - From my count there are 12 supports and 13 opposes. That is not even close to consenses and it should be pulled and only added when there is a lot more people that support inclusion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.195.131.183 (talk) 14:16, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * There is more to building consensus than a simple !vote count. Tariq has included an explanation for the rationale behind posting. Feel free to read it. --IP98 (talk) 16:55, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Tariq's rationale basically amounted to simply dismissing the opposes. The examples of Wade Davis (American football) and countless other athletes show this was not a first.  I agree with Alex it is odd this was posted with I think 14/12 (now 14/13)? support when the France and New Zealand laws were not posted with much better support.  The whole subtext seems to be "this is morally desriable and something we need to get behind". Were four athletes to come out on one day as was being rumored a few days back I could see the notability.  But at this point, except for very liberal outlets like HuffPo, this was bottom page news quickly forgotten. In fact, the front page news to day is that athletes know they play with gay team-mates and this is "no big deal". μηδείς (talk) 20:49, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * There is a "Please do not" above above about complain about an event only relating to a single country. Claims of US centrism have become tiresome. I rather doubt anyone in the USA gives a damn about a dutch prince or a ban on insecticides, but there is no one on those noms screaming about Eurocentrism. --IP98 (talk) 00:59, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The IP's point is a little more valid when you realise that this story about a US athlete received such a prompt posting while one affecting all of France was dropped. I did warn up there that posting the vastly lesser story would engender claims of bias. GRAPPLE   X  01:12, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Some of us supported posting the France story......and if that IP user feels there is a bias they should work to counteract it by suggesting non-American stories for posting. 331dot (talk) 01:42, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The constant comparison with the French gay marriage issue is getting ridiculously tiresome. It wasn't posted for whatever reason--perhaps it was a mistake and mistakes happen.  But on the other hand it may just be that after already posting the legalization of Argentinian gay marriage 1, Mexico City Gay Marriage 1, Sweden 1, and a number of other places, the issue had become less notable.  This is an apples to oranges comparison.  Same sex marriage and the coming out of gay sportsmen are very different issues.--Johnsemlak (talk) 01:45, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not an apples to oranges comparision; it's a one-apple to sixty-five-million apples comparison. Think of it like this—if we reject an item on the result of the FA Cup, would it be a good idea to stick up an item on the FA Vase quite promptly afterwards? Or if we reject, say, a death nomination for an active head of state but immediately follow it by posting one for a TD/MP/congressman? Of course not. The larger, wider-reaching item was rejected, which should clearly shade our treatment of a smaller, narrower item in the same week. Sometimes it is actually necessary to judge one item by the treatment of another. GRAPPLE   X  02:14, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Again, you're assumption that the France item was left out due to some geographic or other bias is presumptuous. It could have been a mistake or something else.  ITN has posted the legalization of same sex marriage in many jurisdictions (and doubtlessly the fact that we've posted similar events previously dampened the enthusiasm somewhat--the legalization of gay marriage in Denmark was opposed specifically because it it was only the 'eleventh' country).  But you're portrayal of the Jason Collins coming out as 'one apple vs 65 million, while that may be how you see it, isn't how a large section of the press in the US and abroad sees it, and there are ample sources supporting this.  You're obviously entitled to your view on the matter but it's been very well established that there's a perceived significance here beyond one person.  I completely agree that 'oppose' votes based on the rational that this is 'one person's sex life' or similar wording should be disregarded.  By your logic, we should post all laws passed in France, since the all affect 65 million people.  Many things posted on ITN don't actually effect people beyond a symbolic importance.--Johnsemlak (talk) 03:06, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Firstly, I am not assuming that the French item was rejected because of any bias. Thanks for putting words in my mouth. I stated that the act of ignoring one and posting a lesser will, and I quote "engender claims of bias" from our readership; it's clear this is true because we've already seen such an accusation scant inches above. And no, those oppose votes should not be disregarded in the slightest—the opinion that one person's personal life is not of international importance is a common and valid one. Lastly, no, that is not my logic, so once again, thank you for using me as your strawman, I greatly appreciate not actually being paid attention to. My logic is that we should not post an item affecting one person if we have only very recently rejected one affecting 65 million people. How the press in a person's home country reacts to personal news is not indicative of its actual global importance—you only have to look at the continued English interest in Kate Middleton's pregnancy (which, by the way, was also commented on by government officials much like this story) to see how the press, and people wishing to appeal to the press, like to jump on feel-good stories quite readily. Unlike every other story in our current ITN box, I have yet to see a single column inch or televised minute on this story outside of US sources (and I read a very sport-heavy newspaper). GRAPPLE   X  03:35, 2 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - Academic now, but I will cite my reason anyway, since this is not a closed issue (and the core stem of it is unlikely to be a closed issue in my lifetime). This argument for strong notability (as contrasted to a piece of data irrelevant to the person's forté) has several parts in addition to the (already stated) heavy news coverage.

1) Male homosexuality is seen differently from female homosexuality everywhere in the world. (The threesome usually assumes two women and one man, not the other way around.) In general, a lesbian in a physically competitive environment has a similar or better public acceptance rate to a (male) homosexual in a "soft" (traditionally female) working environment. (Home decor and hair style have become the classics here.)

2) Male homosexuality in intensely masculine, physical environments is seen differently from male homosexuality in more neutral, non-physical environments. In general, a (male) homosexual is much less accepted in intensely masculine, physical environments than in more neutral, non-physical environments.


 * 2 holds especially true for masculine, physical environments which are commonly idolised as ideals of masculinity. There is no high-level female equivalent to a United States football team. There is a women's NBA -- but a comparison of salaries, seat sales, and advertising dollars tells the real story. The so-called Big Four are all sports where the best players are held up as masculine idols. A similar situation exists for rugby in the UK and cricket in much of the Commonwealth. However, it has not spread quite so strongly to association football (soccer) -- with exceptions, especially in Latin America. (Personal hypothesis -- is the amount and type of direct physical contact relevant (eg. the possibility of hands touching as opposed to hands strictly not touching)? I know, I know, NOR.)

3) Male homosexuality in intensely masculine, physical single-sex competitive team environments is seen differently from male homosexuality in similar non-team environments. In general, male homosexuality is much less accepted in single-sex competitive team environments than in similar solo or pairs environments. You can see the reason for this yourself if you consider the common reaction to women reporters in male sports locker rooms. With opposite genders, there is always potential for sexual assessments or reactions. With single-sex male teams, the common assumption is that there is no potential for one player to consider another player as a possible sexual partner. However, a (male) homosexual team player presumably assesses other men around him sexually in the same way that men appraise women sexually. This changes the social connections among team members, in much the same way as the classic question of whether it is possible for men and women to truly be friends without sex getting in the way.

All of these points together make it extremely difficult for any male team player in a highly masculinised team sport to declare his homosexuality while he is still active on the team. In fact, it has never happened. Point #2 explains why prior declaration of homosexuality by female athletes or males working in (presumably gender neutral) environments do not take away from the impact of this story. Point #3 explains why prior declaration of homosexuality by solo or pairs male athletes do not take away from the impact of this story. - Tenebris 02:59, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Your argument for Collins's sainthood in the progressive church, Tenebris, is noted. As for ITN it's not notable. μηδείς (talk) 03:58, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * laugh* You have not read much of the hagiographies of saints, have you? I do find it interesting that any action of "committing sociology" is met with this kind of reaction. -- And yet, even so, there does seem to have been sufficient consensus in the previous thread for ITN to disagree with you over notability. Unanimity of opinion has never been a requirement of ITN. (I find life is much simpler when one does not automatically assume one's own opinion is synonymous with self-evident fact to the point of confusing the two.) - Tenebris 06:21, 2 May 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.248.201.5 (talk)
 * You appear to have confused your own opinion for facts quite extensively in posting that unsupported wall of text about the alleged qualities of gay men. AlexTiefling (talk) 13:43, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * As a queer man, I feel I ought to say that Tenebris' argument is a huge pile of unsourced personal opinions to which I would not give even the slightest credence. AlexTiefling (talk) 07:33, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Goodness. I seem to have pricked the complete opposite sides of the spectrum simultaneously ... which is a fairly good indicator of neutrality. Medeis -- I am demonstrating the strength of an existing trend. Things which break strong, socially relevant trends are by definition notable. AlexTiefling -- if you reread my words with a neutral eye, you may notice that I have never once mentioned the alleged qualities of gay men. I mentioned only how the straight world sees and reacts to overt homosexuality, and why. As a queer man, can you personally speak to the point of view of the straight world?
 * And btw, may I remind you that this is ITN:C, not a Wikipedia article? Support/oppose/comment asks for reasoning for the choice, not sourcing. Although, if you really want to track it down for yourselves, nearly all of what I said does happen to be peer-reviewed sourceable. - Tenebris 17:08, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Pull'' There are too many caveats to this "first". If he was the first professional player worldwide to do this, it would hold more weight. It just screams NA-centric. <b style="color:#0645AD;">Brightgalrs</b> ( /braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/ )<sup style="color:#0645AD;">[1] 11:23, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * This was a top news story around the world (not just on the sports page), and this is "in the news". If you feel this is "NA-centric", then I would suggest proposing non-NA-centric stories for posting. A good portion of users here are from NA. 331dot (talk) 11:27, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * We did. But for some reason, the France and NZ stories were not posted, despite moderately strong support. I think there'd be less contention around this story if those had been put up. AlexTiefling (talk) 12:17, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * This story shouldn't be held hostage because others' desired stories didn't get posted despite having support(Other stuff exists). They should be protesting why those stories weren't posted- I am certainly curious about the France story(which I supported).  331dot (talk) 12:24, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Please re-read what I wrote. I am aware of WP:OTHERSTUFF; I referred to it in my comment. Like you, I am curious about the non-posting of the France and NZ stories. I am calling on any admins who are available to look into why those stories were not posted. I am also concerned that this may well be an instance of pro-US bias on ITN; but suggesting that as a one-off problem is drowned out by a predictable chorus of whiners claiming that there is always such bias. I reject this. AlexTiefling (talk) 13:43, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

OMG Is this the current state of ITN now? A kangaroo court where basically any U.S. item of miniscule notability will get posted no matter what level of opposition? Guess there's nothing left to do but just go with the flow. 'MURICA!!! 128.227.159.199 (talk) 13:01, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it was so "miniscule" that the President of the United States (and a former one) saw fit to comment on it and it was the lead story all over the US (and a story seen in non-US news). As stated at the top, objections about a story relating to a single country are not vaild.  If you don't like the stories that get posted, suggest non-US stories for posting.  Currently, the story on Collins is the only US story listed in ITN- so much for a US bias. 331dot (talk) 13:07, 2 May 2013 (UTC)


 * But I thought there wasn't consensus yet? Who decided this should be posted? How does this get passed, but not the France post (which was much more relevant worldwide)?201.9.228.193 (talk) 13:14, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I cannot explain why something did not get posted(I supported the France story) but other stuff exists and that's not a valid argument here. tariqabjotu explained his reasoning for posting above. 331dot (talk) 13:21, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * He didn't explain why that story should be rejected, despited having more support than this one. It doesn't help when fighting charges of US-centric bias in WP. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.9.228.193 (talk) 13:28, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't believe it was formally rejected so much as no action was taken. 331dot (talk) 13:33, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I just read that nomination and I see your argument. I also agree with Muboshgu below.201.9.228.193 (talk) 13:49, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The France news (and the New Zealand news too) should've been posted just like this was, IMHO. I can't explain why those didn't make it, beyond the flaws in the ITN/C process. – Muboshgu (talk) 13:42, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Well at least there is an admission that the process is hopelessly flawed and biased in favor of Americans.128.227.159.199 (talk) 13:54, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * That's not what Muboshgu said. As far as I'm concerned, this set of outcomes is very biased towards US news, but i don't think that reflects the general pattern. That's why I'd like these three nominations reviewed; their treatment is egregious compared to other ITN nomination. AlexTiefling (talk) 14:02, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's why there's only one US story in ITN right now. Stop talking about any bias and do something about it.  Suggest non-US stories for posting, write articles about non-US subjects.  Just making comments about it does nothing to advance your cause without action to back it up. 331dot (talk) 13:59, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I have proposed several non-US stories for posting over the years. They haven't got up because not enough Americans have heard of the people involved. Opposes of the form "not well enough known" tend to dominate non-American proposals. Yes, we do have a lot of Americans on Wikipedia. HiLo48 (talk) 23:59, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
 * So since stories you propose are not posted, ITN as a 'US centric' problem, with no definitive evidence of such a problem.  With all due respect Hilo given you're past opinions you might not be extremely objective here.--Johnsemlak (talk) 00:46, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Please assume good faith, don't misrepresent me, and discuss the words I have written rather than me. It is inevitable that some cultures will impact Wikipedia more than others. This is discussed very well at Systemic bias. HiLo48 (talk) 00:54, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Herschel stops working

 * Weak support. Whilst this was an entirely expected (and planned for) event, it does give a useful landmark which could be used to highlight the satellite. However, there's no need to adopt the promotional language of the press release ('most powerful ever'). I suggest
 * The Herschel Space Observatory, a far-infrared space telescope, ends its mission after running out of liquid helium coolant.
 * <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 21:50, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Blurb replaced, but it was (even though it was the most powerful observatory...) The Rambling Man (talk) 06:45, 30 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Out of curiosity, is there a 'most famous image' someone can link to that it took? μηδείς (talk) 00:30, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think anyone could make that sort of judgement call, especially since most of its data hasn't been published yet. But File:Andromeda_spiral_galaxy.jpg is pretty striking, as is File:Embryonic Stars in the Rosette Nebula.jpg. A quick google search will show dozens of others. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 01:22, 30 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support. End of the the largest infrared space telescope ever launched. Thue (talk) 09:43, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The article has been updated and there has been no opposition in 24 hours. Marking [ready]. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 11:05, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posting. Scientific news of quality. --Tone 12:50, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Modest. I think we should use one of those images.  Much better looking than the king. μηδείς (talk) 05:10, 1 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Blurb & Image I suggest we consider using this image of the Andromeda Galaxy Herschel took as the current image on the front page, I have added an altblurb. μηδείς (talk) 17:09, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * As mentioned on the ITN talk page (quite why there are two conversations going on I know not), this is a suboptimal alt blurb and a suboptimal choice of image since it's a composite of both IR and x-rays from another observatory. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:14, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

You could try the second image, with an alt blurb of: " The Herschel Space Observatory, a far-infrared space telescope (its image of the Andromeda Galaxy pictured) ends its mission after running out of liquid helium coolant."? The Rambling Man (talk) 17:22, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I am in favor of that blurb, and think further comments should go on the talk page to avoid a split discussion. μηδείς (talk) 18:36, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Only problem with further comments going on the talk page is that this will not be updated in time. If you really want the image to be updated then this is the only genuine venue to promote that perspective.  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:00, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually WP:ERRORS generally gets the faster response, as we don't require images to get support on ITN/C. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 20:54, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Odd, though, as there's no "error" here, just a personal preference being expressed. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:57, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Iraq protests

 * Note I see a middling-length article from Al Jazeera cited in the article itself. Do you have any other links to other news sources so we can judge how significant this is?  I'm not voting one way or the other until I can see how much this story is in the news... -- Jayron  32  12:40, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The WSJ says the death toll is now 38.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 13:34, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Lihaas (talk) 14:19, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Theres more violence today.
 * "The fighting was the bloodiest Iraq has seen since thousands of Sunnis started staging protests in December to demand an end to perceived marginalisation of their sect by Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's Shia-led government."Lihaas (talk) 10:51, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The death tooll is now 200+ and the article is updated.Lihaas (talk) 09:08, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * More than 200 deaths and its updated to today not just 5 days ago. There is more going on in this sectarian quagmire (and its more linked to Syria as well with the claimed air strike)Lihaas (talk) 10:44, 28 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support Very important development following the 2013 Hawija clashes. Article seems updated.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  08:38, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per my comments in the above section titled "Iraq suspends Al Jazeera". Kurtis (talk) 09:39, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Update &mdash; Now the aforementioned section is below. Heh. Kurtis (talk) 22:25, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Isn't Iraq a war zone? Clashes like this seem to happen all the time there. How is this big news? --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 13:21, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This is big news, because the clashes are bigger and sectarian in nature. They originate from the Sunni opposition movement dissatisfaction with the government. There have been several events that makes this more significant include: closing the Iraqi-Jordanian boarders, warning against sectarian civil war from Iraqi PM, suspending 10 T.V. channels by the government and of course the 2013 Hawija clashes.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  13:45, 29 April 2013 (UTC)


 * What's up with nomination? If this is update, is there any chance of posting this? – H T  D  13:59, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Iraq suspends Al Jazeera
Article: media of Iraq

Blurb: The government of Iraq orders ten TV stations, including Al Jazeera, to cease operations.

Source: LA Times


 * The fact that the leadership feels the need to use censorship in an effort to quell the growing tensions speaks volumes about how bad things have become there.--ThaddeusB (talk) 04:29, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment. The significance of the event must be mentioned in the blurb. Authoritarian governments regularly censor media outlets; this event is only newsworthy because of rising tensions between Sunni-majority countries (Saudi Arabia and Qatar) and Shiite-majority countries (Iran and Iraq) and the recent sectarian protests and unrests in Iraq (BBC).--<font color="#87A96B">xanchester <font color="#A40000">(t)  05:29, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps this alt blurb: The government of Iraq orders ten TV stations, including Al Jazeera, to cease operations following rising sectarian tensions between Sunni and Shiite Muslims.--<font color="#87A96B">xanchester <font color="#A40000">(t)  05:37, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: This has been partially nominated below: In_the_news/Candidates. Furthermore, instead of just Media in Iraq, other possible highlight articles are 2012–13 Iraqi protests or 2013 Hawija clashes; I don't know which would be best.  Spencer T♦ C 08:18, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The below nomination (here) deals with the bigger event, the tensions (over 200 dead in five days) that led to this decision.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  08:41, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Does this mean that the government orders the TV stations to cease only broadcasting operations in the country or to use other means to ban these channels, such as blocking the websites where they can be watched on-line or to block all the websites of the media that publish their news? I cannot measure a very big impact of this story if the people are able to circumvent the use of the media by visiting alternative channels to watch them or read their news. Frankly, the rate of Internet users in Iraq is on a very low level, but if someone is able to use it to watch the news, as many people actually do it nowadays, then it's not so significant.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 08:26, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * comment this is all listed in the Iraq protests nom belowLihaas (talk) 09:00, 29 April 2013 (UTC)


 * In principle, I support some sort of blurb pertaining to the 2012–13 Iraqi protests, as they've gained quite a bit of traction in recent times. However, I'm not 100% sure if Iraq's decision to close certain media outlets is the ideal blurb in this case. Maybe a more general item, like this for example: "At least x people are killed as anti-government protests in Iraq continue to escalate." Probably not the best of blurbs, but you get the picture. Kurtis (talk) 09:36, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps a double bold, or at least more informative, blurb? Just saying a bunch of people have died doesn't really capture the nature of the situation:
 * ALT - Iraq closes their border with Jordan and orders ten TV stations off the air in response to anti-government protests that have killed over 200 people.
 * Or the same thing without the bolding on "orders..." if we only want to bold one article. --ThaddeusB (talk) 15:20, 29 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment we could just re-nominate the protests. It's not like they stopped when the last nom expired off. --IP98 (talk) 10:49, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Ive been saying below that it is not stale and called attention to it too\Lihaas (talk) 12:55, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have BOLDly merged the discussions to simplify further debate. --ThaddeusB (talk) 15:31, 29 April 2013 (UTC)'
 * ThanksLihaas (talk) 19:46, 29 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment. I don't think the blurb for this should state a reason, since that appears to be contentious. The Iraqi government has presented it as a public safety measure, that much is true, but... Formerip (talk) 18:02, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Libya events

 * Events can't get posted if they aren't proposed for posting. Can you post some sources? 331dot (talk) 12:38, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Where is the news? Infighting and warnings of instability have been continuing ever since the deposition of Gaddafi. --RJFF (talk) 13:01, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.--WaltCip (talk) 15:48, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Which specific newsworthy event are you proposing here? -- Jayron  32  16:09, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I searched the BBC for "Libya" and found gunmen surrounding a Tripoli foreign ministry today, French embassy being bombed in Tripoli five days ago, but nothing much else... The Rambling Man (talk) 16:17, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Its on the bold link for April. I thought people would check before respondingLihaas (talk) 17:23, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * So the two things I pointed out above? (the middle item in the April section just looks like more political speak which hardly fits ITN)... The Rambling Man (talk) 17:33, 28 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The article has two orange tags issues already. I think it doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  19:27, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:SNOW oppose. Not news. The infighting has been ongoing.--<font color="#87A96B">xanchester <font color="#A40000">(t)  06:02, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It got far worse recently. With France intervening making it internationaloLihaas (talk) 09:01, 29 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Strong oppose. That blurb pretty much just says "nothing changed." "Nothing changes" isn't news. &mdash; <span style="color:#666 !important;">TORTOISE  WRATH  03:45, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] 2013 ricin letters

 * Support a deliberate attempted on the life of a head of a state is "newsworthy", IMO. --IP98 (talk) 16:14, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Updated The "second arrest" section has five referenced sentences. The Rambling Man has cleaned up some formatting.  The article well exceeds the three paragraph requirement. μηδείς (talk) 16:37, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Question: does Obama ever open his own mail? Ever?  Is this really likely to have been a viable attempt on his life?  The Rambling Man (talk) 16:51, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I doubt Obama opens his own mail, this was certainly an idiotic attempt. It's still significant I think. --IP98 (talk) 16:54, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * In the 2001 Anthrax mailings letters did get into the congressmen's personal offices. Millions of dollars was spent upgrading postal facilities and apparently the can detect certain substances during sorting now.  The attempt may be amateur, but it's the first in over a decade, and making world news. μηδείς (talk) 17:24, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, so this had no chance of any success at all, unlike the bombing attempt on the British PM that IP98 noted below. So as such, this is "non-news".  The Rambling Man (talk) 18:00, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If there was absolutely zero chance of this affecting Obama, it's not really a big deal. We've seen this kind of amateur rubbish before, it's really inconsequential.  Anyone can mail something dubious to anyone else.  Nothing happened, it's not ITN.  The Rambling Man (talk) 16:59, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I guess. I'll adpot the position next time someone makes a doomed attempt on a British PM. --IP98 (talk) 17:13, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think explosives raining down on the house of the Prime Minister (with an unexploded shell actually landing in his back garden!) is a little different from a letter which goes through several levels of security checks before reaching the President, don't you? The Rambling Man (talk) 17:18, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Or even this, just today, where a gunman shot two policeman outside the Italian PM's office? The Rambling Man (talk) 10:56, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - person tries (in a way any normal person would know is completely futile) to spread terror through the sending of letters, and even though there was no chance in hell for them to actually reach the people involved (Captiol and WH mail addresses actually never enter DC proper before at least 2 scans if it's the same as a few years ago), and just because they've arrested someone and foiled the attempt it's important? I don't buy that for now at least. gwickwire  talk editing 16:57, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose no chance that this could have actually done anything to anyone "newsworthy", and nothing actually happened to anyone "newsworthy". Not ITN-worthy at all.  (However, I tip my hat to User:Medeis whom I have long berated for not getting involved in updating such nominations for nominating and working on this.) The Rambling Man (talk) 17:12, 27 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I have never failed to update my own nominations and do work on other's nominations which interest me and which I have some ability in, such as the Catalonian protests. μηδείς (talk) 17:27, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * And thus far, you've never taken a compliment as it was intended in good faith. Never mind.  The Rambling Man (talk) 18:00, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I was not offended by, and appreciated your statement. I just wanted to clarify that I do contribute more than my share. μηδείς (talk) 18:25, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Obama was never even close to being in danger, nor Sen. Wicker.  331dot (talk) 17:09, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose, I think such threats, maybe much more serious ones, are also sent to other heads of the states, but never mentioned. Egeymi (talk) 20:55, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Agree with the above.--85.210.102.96 (talk) 21:57, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Arrest is not a relevant stage to highlight. Surely the history of this case tells us that. Kevin McE (talk) 22:25, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the most important thing to note here. Innocent until proven guilty. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  03:54, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Reply I see this is doomed, but remember, this wasn't a "threat". Deadly poison was sent to a major head of state. --IP98 (talk) 23:37, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, the statement that this sort of thing happens all the time is baseless. μηδείς (talk) 23:58, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It was "sent to him" in that it was addressed to him(and Sen. Wicker, but the focus here is on Obama), but standard procedures designed to prevent it from reaching The White House, let alone President Obama, worked and kept him from being in any danger whatsoever. It would be like posting on ITN attempts to scale the fence around the White House or even just trespassing on the property. Now, if someone crashes a plane onto the WH grounds or shoots at someone resembling the President, that's a different ball game. 331dot (talk) 00:06, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If the President had been in more direct danger then I would of supported inclusion for ITN. Thankfully he was not, as were the Italians today...--85.210.102.96 (talk) 18:48, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Icelandic parliamentary election, 2013

 * The article is in a very good state, has been considerably expanded and updated. I think it is ready to be posted. Now, that we know that the Independence Party is slightly ahead of the Progressive Party, we should name it as the winner. --RJFF (talk) 12:52, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Not Ready - the result section consists only of a table. Prose is capable of capturing the information in a way a mere tabel cannot and thus is a requirement for an update to be sufficient.  (Mentioning the results in the lead only is insufficient.) --ThaddeusB (talk) 15:59, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Now nicely updated. --ThaddeusB (talk) 19:55, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - and ready to be posted.--BabbaQ (talk) 16:19, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per ITN/R and marking ready per prose update. --IP98 (talk) 17:20, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted ALT blurb.  Spencer T♦ C 23:29, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment The blurb is at best ambiguous and at worst misleading. The Independence Party did win a plurality of votes, but not a plurality of seats - since the Progressive Party won the same number of seats. It seems to me that seats is the more relevant metric here - that is what determines who forms the governments and who can pass laws. We wouldn't have put up a blurb saying that the Democrats won a plurality in the US House of Representatives election last year, even though they did win a plurality of votes. Similarly it would have been silly to say that the Labour Party won a plurality in the 1978 and 1981 New Zealand elections, when they did get the most votes but the National Party won a majority of seats and formed the government on both occasions. I would suggest changing the blurb to something like: "The Independence Party and the Progressive Party win the most seats in the Icelandic parliamentary election." Neljack (talk) 02:08, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * LOL. Doesn't anyone actually read the results or even the infobox? Two parties emerged with the highest number of seats. The blurb is wrong. – H T  D  03:16, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Doh - I adjusted the blurb. The one party version is indeed quite misleading. --ThaddeusB (talk) 04:39, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] South Sudan Liberation Army surrenders arms

 * Support. The BBC story says that they actually have started to turn them in, so this is a notable development in the conflict. 331dot (talk) 16:02, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * oppose per PKK precedent. and also no t heard anything from the groupLihaas (talk) 18:28, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The PKK had merely made an announcement, without actually doing anything yet; this group has actually taken action on their pledge, according to the BBC: "Some 3,000 fighters from one of South Sudan's biggest rebels groups, the SSLA, have handed in their weapons". 331dot (talk) 18:42, 27 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - notable development.--BabbaQ (talk) 18:44, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, certainly notable since the group agreed to surrender its arms and announced it, unlike the PKK. Egeymi (talk) 20:58, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, a notable step. Brandmeistertalk  09:19, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Marked ready in accordance with support expressed above - Dumelow (talk) 14:35, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted --ThaddeusB (talk) 16:01, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Tomislav Nikolić apologises for Srebrenica massacre

 * Support, whether or not covered by media outlets, since it is significant historically, therefore, just for encyclopedic news.Egeymi (talk) 19:41, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Neutral - What exactly is the weight behind an apology? If no reparations or tangible attempts at reconciliation are made, it can't be that much.--WaltCip (talk) 20:49, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The apology is the news for now. It's impossible at this stage to measure or predict what will be the relations among the countries in the future and we have never been working on it in the past. The massacre by itself is considered the largest one since the World War II and any news of apology relating to it is significant in principle.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 21:24, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Neutral. I too would like to see something more tangible than an apology; also the President declined to call it a genocide which might reduce the impact of the apology.  It is still a significant admission, which is why I won't outright oppose this, however. 331dot (talk) 21:12, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Significant historically. It doesn't really matter if there is any tangible outcome. Our focus is as an encyclopaedia, ITN items are merely hook items into our content. This is a good story for that. -- RA (talk) 21:24, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - historic recognition.--BabbaQ (talk) 22:42, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose although the act has been accepted as a genocide by his predecessor Boris Tadić.. Political ass-covering, not historic. Last guy acknowledged genocide and handed over perpetrators to the Hague. --IP98 (talk) 22:57, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Was gonna nominate this myself until I realised there had already been an apology before. (per the article)Lihaas (talk) 09:10, 27 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose - To reiterate the term used by IP98, it's political ass-covering. There's nothing news-worthy about this, it's nothing important at all. gwickwire  talk editing 16:54, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose It's just words, and one cannot apologize on another's behalf. μηδείς (talk) 18:27, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's somewhat politically fashionable to do so these days. In Australia in the past six years we've had an apology to Aboriginal people taken from their families as children and an apology to people who were adopted out because their mothers were unmarried teenagers. I'm sure there are examples in other countries. HiLo48 (talk) 18:50, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, apologies are frequently given on another's behalf. Another example is the British PM & the leader of the opposition apologising on behalf a government they weren't  part of.  The Rambling Man (talk) 10:34, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * But you cannot simply compare one apology with another, especially when the one is related to an event in which more than 8,000 people were massively killed and is thus considered the worst such case after the World War II.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 20:22, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree, the point I was making (and I think that HiLo48 was too) was that it is possible for apologies to be made on behalf of others. This is an example of such.  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:43, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yep HiLo48 (talk) 18:03, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Belated oppose because of the arguments listed above and that we would cause controversy over whether we should use "apologize" or "apologise" on the main page. &mdash; <span style="color:#666 !important;">TORTOISE  WRATH  03:48, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] George Jones - recent death

 * Support when updated. 14 number one hits, and so many recordings and awards the each have their own pages. μηδείς (talk) 15:17, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Mythical rule applied, update should hopefully be numerically sufficient. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:06, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support legend. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:06, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - Huge star and "legendary" is not exaggerating. Jus  da  fax   17:53, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Update sufficient, absolutely a major figure in American music. -- Jayron  32  18:01, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - this is the man that generations of country singers have measured themselves against, "legend" is an understatement. --Khajidha (talk) 22:15, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, obviously. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 22:35, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. RIP. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:37, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted. Espresso Addict (talk) 01:16, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

PKK

 * Support. Significant development in an important conflict. Thue (talk) 20:36, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment we usually (?) wait until after the event has taken place. Will it be in the news again then or is this the main item? --IP98 (talk) 20:38, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree this is ITN worthy if it actually happens, but I don't think it's done yet. Turkey wants them to walk away without weapons and threatens to take action if they do, on the other hand they want to take their weapons with them. This might just break all the talks. Source: BBC Radio.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  21:02, 25 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Wait until they actually do, as they could still change their mind, but this is notable enough for ITN once they do. 331dot (talk) 20:59, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Wait this will be perfect on May 8, and it gives us plenty of time to get a five-sentence three-source update. μηδείς (talk) 21:23, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Or any other update that is deemed sufficient by the admin who eventually decides whether to post. Kevin McE (talk) 05:44, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps a re-read of WP:ITN would be helpful for some editors: "The decision as to when an article is updated enough is subjective..." i.e. there is no "five-sentence three-source" requirement. So stop pretending there is. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:41, 26 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Wait, since such statements, maybe much stronger ones, were expressed before, but the result wasn't success. Egeymi (talk) 19:45, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Great Mosque of Aleppo minaret

 * Support when updated. Major damage to an important building on a world heritage site. Editors beaware: there is a mosque of the same name in Damascus, regarded as one of the most holiest places in Islam and one of the most important buildings in all of Middle East. This mosque in Damascus has not been damaged. --hydrox (talk) 17:12, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * There are people who actually call that the Great Mosque of Damascus? Interesting. Either way, I'd be surprised if someone got the two mixed up. --  tariq abjotu  02:24, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see. Some people, like the author of the BBC article, refer to the mosque in Aleppo as the Umayyad Mosque (of Aleppo). Yeah, that's confusing, and also a bit strange. --  tariq abjotu  14:06, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support I found this terribly depressing and think it's significant enough to be an appropriate candidate for ITN. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:39, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Particularly appropriate topical item for an encyclopedia.--Johnsemlak (talk) 17:58, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, major event highlighting major ongoing war. Mikael Häggström (talk) 18:29, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. As The Rambling Man writes, very depressing that a world heritage site should be so badly damaged. Espresso Addict (talk) 19:50, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, per above. Very notable, showing irreversible effects of war like killings of people. Egeymi (talk) 20:22, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per above. Destruction of a monument old almost 1,000 is a very big deal.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 20:29, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment, which article are we nominating? The news is clearly significant and supported (per above) but the Great Mosque article has no update, what's the deal?  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:39, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The update is in the history section. Two long sentences, but it's there. --IP98 (talk) 20:47, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Perfect, thanks. Well let's get this posted as soon as possible, marking as ready to go (despite the myths of "sentence/citation" requirements, this is all we have, not reason not to post it)...The Rambling Man (talk) 21:01, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment too bad there isn't a picture, even fair use for the article... --IP98 (talk) 20:50, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You mean a post-destroyed photo? Agreed.  Sad.  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:52, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support and comment: thank you so much, LukeSurl, for your help here. The minaret is e.g. pictured here:, . There was only one large minaret at the Great Mosque of Aleppo, so all pictures of the minaret seen here is it. (Yes, I saw it before it was destroyed; in 2001).  We have, of course,  no image post-destruction. This is the worst destruction of a cultural heritage so far in the Syrian war, IMO, and, IMO,  on level with the  Bamian statues destruction (Afghanistan) and the Mostar bridge (Bosnia.). Sad greetings, Huldra (talk) 21:21, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support But neither of the two articles targeted by the nominator has both a five-sentence and a three-source update. (Although, frankly, only one article should need to meet a full-update requirement.)  μηδείς (talk) 21:33, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * There is no requirement for a "five-sentence and a three-source update", so please stop pretending otherwise. This is becoming disruptive.  The Rambling Man (talk) 06:43, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support &mdash; What a depressing piece of news. A portion of Syria's architectural legacy has been destroyed. Kurtis (talk) 09:55, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment I want to support this, but there is a POV statement that needs a cleanup and I'm not sure how to do it. Contrary to claims by the state media of Jabhat al-Nusra's involvement, activists asserted that it was rebels from the Tawhid Brigades who were fighting government forces around the mosque. "Contrary to claims" has to go, but I don't know, does Jabhat al-Nusra == activist? What? It's also unsourced... --IP98 (talk) 10:58, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Removed, are we ready to make this [Ready]? The Rambling Man (talk) 16:17, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per above supports. Agree that article is ready. Jus  da  fax   17:46, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * [Ready], Egeymi (talk) 19:47, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - another sign of the syrian regimes lunatic behaviour. --BabbaQ (talk) 22:43, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I thought it was destroyed by terrorist insurgents... --IP98 (talk) 10:24, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted.  Spencer T♦ C 08:43, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Italian PM

 * Comment. Heads of government changing are not ITNR, only heads of state(which we just did for Italy). 331dot (talk) 15:31, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Ag! but we posted Canada, Australia and the UK more than once for the election and appointment.Lihaas (talk) 15:48, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I know we dual posted the installation of Chinese dictator after the sham parliamentary "election", but when did we dual post Canada, Australia and the UK? --IP98 (talk) 16:19, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think we posted the UK twice. First the election, then either Brown resigning and/or Cameron being appointed. All in a span of a week; this one's different though as this took much longer (not as long as the Dutch though). – H T  D  16:54, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I only made my comment to point out that the head of state changing is an ITNR item and not the head of government, not to express concerns about double posting. 331dot (talk) 09:58, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I can't remember how previous discussions on this matter have gone, but I highly doubt when the relavent section of ITNR was spelled out the intention was to exclude the commonly recognized leader of Italy. If the Italian PM isn't ITNR it certainly should be.  I think the problem is we can't come up with a straightforward wording regarding PMs but really I think common sense should apply.--Johnsemlak (talk) 19:22, 25 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support: It is special in this case, because the appointment of the PM did not follow the parliamentary election directly. Actually, the PM was not chosen by the parliament, but nominated by the president. Therefore, it is independent from the election, and should be posted separately. I think the global media attention is obvious. --RJFF (talk) 16:57, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Wait. The deal hasn't happened yet. He's been invited to form a coalition, and the other parties have been making the right noises. But nothing has been finalised, and it could still fall through (this being Italian politics, it's quite a real possibility). All the news reports I've seen are careful to say he isn't PM yet e.g. The Guardian says 'nominated' and 'appeared to be on the verge'. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 17:01, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Letta has now been appointed and the article is updated. Ready to post. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 11:10, 30 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Wait The negotiations might still collapse, as MG already pointed out above, and as they have collapsed already multiple times. BBC too is just hopeful he might become the next PM, but I would hold my breath up until official inauguration. --hydrox (talk) 21:14, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support The cabinet has now been appointed. Because there was such unusually long delay between the election and appointing the cabinet, and because Italy is one of the EU's "core" countries, this should be posted. --hydrox (talk) 15:04, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Not Updated and the article says "expected". μηδείς (talk) 01:33, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Why not try updating something for a change rather than just complaining it's not updated? The Rambling Man (talk) 16:43, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Letta Cabinet and the election page is updated.Lihaas (talk) 10:43, 28 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Now, he has been sworn in. The Letta article has been adequetely updated. It is ready to be posted. --RJFF (talk) 12:58, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Tagged as needs attention. It's been 2 days already. – H T  D  10:36, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * posted -- Jayron  32  14:28, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

China violence

 * Comment needs update. ethnic clashes occurred between social workers and police between social workers and police? wtf? --IP98 (talk) 11:13, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose It sounds like a frequent and common occurrence, like bombings in Iraq, Syria, etc. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 23:30, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] 2013 Dhaka building collapse

 * Obvious support - I don't think a reason is even required for this one. YuMaNuMa Contrib 11:27, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Agreed, no nonsense tragic incident with a large loss of life. CaptRik (talk) 12:03, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * wait still a stub at the moment weak support EdwardLane (talk) 12:08, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support once no longer a stub. Casualties up to 700 according to CNN. 331dot (talk) 12:51, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose for now just on the length of the article. It needs expansion to be worthwhile to put on the main page.  Once it reaches a reasonable length, this is clearly a significant story that many news outlets are following and as such, demonstrates the significance required for ITN.  -- Jayron  32  13:05, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The article looks like to meet the five-sentence minimum as a decisive criterion that you and your fellow colleagues have introduced. Moreover, all the information available are already in the article and it seems impossible at this stage to improve the article when nothing else has been released.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 14:08, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "a decisive criterion that you and your fellow colleagues have introduced" Excuse me, I thought this criterion has been at the ITN for <S>the longest time</S> since 2008? – H T  D  14:15, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Normally, the article should be updated, but why a five-sentence metric? I didn't know about it until recently. Isn't it arbitrary? What if there is much more said in less than a five-sentence long prose?--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 14:24, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Apparently, you, and probably the hardliners who are insisting on the full 5 sentences, still don't know about this "guideline". Read it again. – H T  D  14:32, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It doesn't set it as a minimum criterion. There may be a five-sentence update that duplicates the information, while some two-sentence updates may be longer and contain much more information.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 14:46, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Exactly. I guess it means that if the update and the blurb tell exactly the same thing (or, the update doesn't expand what the hook says), it's not enough; if the update tells us something more than the blurb tells us, it should be OK. Whatever happens, we'd still some sort of update to the article that expands upon the blurb. – H T  D  14:53, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You're correct.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 14:58, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * @Jayron32, what's actually relevant here is the current ITN guidelines: "In the case of a new, event-specific article, the traditional cut-off for what is enough has been around three complete, referenced and well-formed paragraphs." Does this article not meet that? The Rambling Man (talk) 14:19, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I always learned that a complete, well-formed paragraph should be ~5 sentences. That would make the article about 2 paragraphs, one of which is the lead, so there's really only 7 sentences of non-lead material. Ryan Vesey 15:46, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have no idea where all these numbers come from (our own article says a paragraph is one or more sentence!). And why isn't the lead counted?  The instructions don't rule out lead prose.  The Rambling Man (talk) 16:12, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The lead is supposed to be a summary of the rest of the article. It makes no sense to count it twice.  That being said, the lead isn't currently doing that. Ryan Vesey 16:31, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well the "instructions" should be updated to reflect that lead paras don't count. In most cases, if an article has only three paras, it doesn't even have a lead.  The Rambling Man (talk) 16:44, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, it is worth mentioning that information in the lead is not repeated in the body of article.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  16:50, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think if we're going to throw numbers into the ring each and every time someone makes an effort here, we should define the numbers, so if you're saying a "well-formed paragraph" must have approximately five sentences, I suggest that is reflected in the instructions, otherwise it's unfair to other editors. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:58, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong support Similar disasters with high number of deaths and injures are pretty rare and this one really shadows the news in the world as one of the most tragic disasters of its sort in recent times.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 14:08, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "Recent times" presumably referring to the past twenty days, since 74 people died in the 2013 Thane building collapse? I do agree with you, though, it should be posted once the article's up to snuff. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 14:52, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You're right, but apart of these two I don't remember any other similar disaster that happened. That's why I refer to it as "one of the most tragic disasters" and not absolutely "the most tragic" even if the latter can be assumed as true.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 14:56, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * attempts to list them. Not sure how complete it is, but suggests there were no "major" collapes in 2011 and only one in 2012, yet we've had four already this year with at least 25 deaths. Hard to know what the minimum severity benchmark would be for ITN given such a varied statistic... &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 17:18, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. I patched up some minor errors, article is an okay length. Abductive  (reasoning) 14:35, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support After full update. Information on relief efforts exists and that should easily get the article up to snuff.  On another note, where do we have our death figures from?  Everything I'm seeing, like this says at least 87 and 600, not 700, injured. Ryan Vesey 15:46, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well I give up. I've updated the article as best I can, if it's not up to "snuff" for you given the limited information (it's now night-time there) then I guess we'll have to wait until tomorrow.  I'm using the BBC's figures.  The Rambling Man (talk) 16:53, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. The article looks good enough to post. I suggest the blurb is changed to reflect that it was an eight-story building.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  16:45, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - kudos to The Rambling Man for getting together a reasonable short article with limited information. I think it's a major enough incident. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 17:20, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you Amakuru, much appreciated. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:34, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:54, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Update Unfortunately the death toll has climbed to 160 at least according to the BBC.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  08:32, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Shamshad Begum for recent deaths

 * Comment: Shamshad_Begum needs substantial copyediting and separation into smaller paragraphs too.  Spencer T♦ C 07:56, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have attempted to copy edit the article, but the subject is far from my comfort zone. Espresso Addict (talk) 02:39, 26 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support pretty impressive if the article is to be believed. μηδείς (talk) 16:31, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment this seems like a minority topic that's not going to draw much comment. But it certainly meets the update and importance criteria.  I am going to mark it ready on the assumption that Spencer and Espresso's comments are implicit supports. μηδείς (talk) 17:08, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Unreferenced sentence in the "update", perhaps you could help there? The Rambling Man (talk) 17:29, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * There was one tagged sentence which I have referenced and there are eight references now covering every point in the update. The article tag complains there are disambig links that should be fixed, but I don't have a tool for that and it doesn't disqualify the article. μηδείς (talk) 18:14, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You don't need a "tool", you just need to click the "check" option in the "article tag". There are 16 dabs that should be resolved before this goes to main page.  No point in quality control (or a "five-sentence/three-ref" mythical rule) if most of the wikilinks point at the wrong page.... The Rambling Man (talk) 19:29, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Please don't assume implicit support just because I comment on a nomination to evaluate the article quality.  Spencer T♦ C 01:59, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I hoped "on the assumption", "implicit" and using a ? in the [Ready (?)] tag made it clear I wasn't trying to put words in anyone's mouth. μηδείς (talk) 15:44, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose based on the fact that the quality of wikilinks is demonstrably weak, per the comments above. 16 dabs need to be fixed before this hits main page.  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:40, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Done ready. μηδείς (talk) 21:33, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Someone appears to have fixed all the disambiguations now. Espresso Addict (talk) 00:44, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posting.  Spencer T♦ C 01:59, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Conviction for fake bomb detectors

 * Oppose it's certainly big news in the UK where this idiot is being convicted, and I agree (along with the experts) that dozens, if not hundreds of people have been killed as a result of this fraud, but sadly that's speculative and I don't think this will make it globally. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:58, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * well, there is this old 2009 article in theNewYork Times if you're looking for global, though if it had been nominated then as 'fraudster sells 50 million pounds worth of devices that are only as effective as a dowsing rod to governments for bomb detection' the result would have been wait for conviction. EdwardLane (talk) 21:17, 23 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose - as per TRM. Also, whilst a noteworthy event, this is just news rather than adding than encyclopedic value to our readers. Pedro : Chat  19:59, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * 'this just news'? so don't list it under articles 'in the news'? encyclopedic value is 'what s this thing the ade 651 and how does it supposedly work' you could replace the particular article with dowsing rod and that might also be interesting to some people. I'm not sure that makes a good quality oppose. EdwardLane (talk) 21:17, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry if I'm unclear. Wikinews is a good place for news (obviously!). Adding this to in the news is an opportuniuty to show good enyclopedia content which happens to be relevant to current news. ITN should, IMHO, be about showcasing quality content not just adding every topic that's "in the news". Pedro : Chat  22:24, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * showcasing quality content - fair enough, the article looks to be in decent shape, no tags on it that I can see, a decent amount of recent expansion about the conviction. What am I missing? EdwardLane (talk) 11:54, 24 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Awesome news in my opinion, but not quite up to the standards of an ITN main page listing. Kurtis (talk) 01:40, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well fair enough :) Not meaning to sound grumpy, but just trying to figure out where the line to 'up to standard' falls - would it only be good enough if there were more confirmed deaths because of failed detection? I concede that perhaps this should have been nominated in feb 2011 when the iraqi general responsible for their purchase order was convicted and imprisoned, rather than the chap responsible for selling it? EdwardLane (talk) 11:54, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's hard to really delineate exactly what is "up to standards", Edward &mdash; sometimes I even call it wrong. Just recently I proposed a blurb that got unanimously declined due to an overall lack of information and coverage. In this particular case, McCormick's actions arguably led to hundreds of deaths and he should face justice for fraud, but he is not a particularly high profile figure. In other words, not many people know his name. That's the primary reason why I don't feel this story should be featured on the main page. Kurtis (talk) 03:03, 26 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose per reasons given. 331dot (talk) 02:33, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * hi 331dot, are you complaining about not being in the international news (it affected lots of nation's security - admittedly not the USA/UK but might that be a developed world bias)? not encyclopedic (in what way is that exactly)? not quite significant enough (possible but a bunch of deaths is usually enough to warrant a posting)? or not quite good enough quality article (it seems pretty reasonable to me - as a non contributer to that article)? EdwardLane (talk) 11:54, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not "complaining" about anything; but I do agree with the reasons that have been mentioned. This might be a better item for Did You Know. 331dot (talk) 12:21, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I didn't mean "complaining" in a perjorative sense, I meant which of the "complaints" (reasons above that were given as a reason to be opposed to the nomination) was/were the one(s) that you were espousing as your own. And yes if this article was smaller then a sufficient expansion might be possible to make it a DYK nomination, though I don't think there is any chance of expanding it 5 times over just on the basis of the conviction, so I think that's not possible. EdwardLane (talk) 13:02, 24 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support as Nom - forgot to do that bit, the conviction of the criminal responsible is usually the time for the article to go up I think. Might be that you want to wait for the company to get convicted of corporate manslaughter but that probably won't make any headlines EdwardLane (talk) 11:54, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Whilst this might not be the most Earth-shattering news, it's interesting enough and the article is good. The threshold for inclusion can be lower when the encyclopaedic content is of a high standard. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 13:54, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Major news in the UK and Arabia, but briefed around the world. More importantly, the article is of outstanding quality. --hydrox (talk) 23:34, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Blurb I could support this, but the blurb is not helpful. μηδείς (talk) 01:40, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I never thought that getting support would have been so tricky, I was expecting someone to have a better blurb suggestion straight from the get go. I couldn't think of how to phrase it myselfEdwardLane (talk) 08:10, 25 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support Can't think of anything similar to this happening. Appears to be unique. Article is indeed of excellent quality. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:42, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support with a much-improved blurb. This was huge news here in the UK, and has attracted attention from around the world. AlexTiefling (talk) 07:44, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Blurb suggestion:
 * Businessman James McCormick is convicted of fraud for selling fake bomb detectors to military and police forces in several countries
 * I've added it to the template above. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 11:04, 25 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support with altblurb. μηδείς (talk) 16:33, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Ready the article is well updated and has two to one support. μηδείς (talk) 16:36, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted --  tariq abjotu  13:42, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Same sex marriage in France

 * Support: this is some pretty significant news, with international interest. Midnightblueowl (talk) 17:21, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support I don't know why the NZ blurb didn't go up. It should've, and so should this. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:24, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, only if it is endorsed. So oppose for the current blurb. Egeymi (talk) 17:31, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: It is now endorsed and violent protests and celebration followed it. So it should be posted with a different blurb. Egeymi (talk) 08:42, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support I feel that it should go up when signed as the signing doesn't seem like a formality from my reading of the BBC article. Ryan Vesey 17:41, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support I was against New Zealend but I will be for France, they have much much much more population. And I am glad NZ did not go up.75.73.114.111 (talk) 18:07, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment regarding the issue of signing. Technically, the law can and probably will be challenged as unconstitutional, but it is widely recognised that there is no chance of a successful challenge. The chair of the Constitutional Council, which decides these things, has already publicly ruled it out. The likely grounds for a challenge are in this article, but they're ridiculously shaky, as the last sentence points out. Formerip (talk) 18:50, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose These stories have ceased to present any meaningful threshold. It is a minor, and no longer novel, change in internal legislation that is gradually rolling out across the world. There is no merit in spotlighting every step in the journey. Kevin McE (talk) 21:01, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If it were a unanimous thing, I might agree with your point. But it's still highly contentious. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:21, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. This appears to have caused significant controversy in France, including large public protests. Espresso Addict (talk) 22:02, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Why should we post every law that gets passed somewhere? Just because something is covered by the controversy-gawking media of the world doesn't mean that it's significant enough for an ITN. We posted the first few nations to legalize it as "spearheading" for lack of a better word, but I have yet to hear a good argument for why this is so In the News that we have to put it on our front page and knock something else off. gwickwire  talk editing 22:33, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe just because it is a very big deal for the country where it is happening and of a high level of interest to the international media. I don't know what there is beyond that, but the idea of only posting things that are unique and new in every respect is a poor one, and one that we don't normally practice. How is there any consistency in posting the pretty routine fact of Man Utd winning the Premiership title yet again while rejecting a major event in the political history of a major country on the grounds that its not very original of them? Formerip (talk) 23:19, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Because that's a major sporting event. This is the umpteenth time that a country has legalized same-sex marriage, and it's not news anymore. I honestly don't care about it, as I assume others are just like "oh, they got with the program". What would be news is if Saudi Arabia or another country similar, opposed to gays/women/etc. did something of this sort. It's not news anymore. Give me a reason this is more special than the other 10+ countries that did it (which I would've opposed after the first 2/3).  gwickwire  talk editing 23:56, 23 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose Shouldn't we wait until the voting concludes? It may pass; it may fail; shouldn't we wait to find out?  This news is premature since there's nothing really to report yet.  A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:59, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The voting has concluded. That's what the story is about. Formerip (talk) 00:01, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Did it pass? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:05, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, the wording appears to be unclear (at least, to me). How about something like, "France passes Bill 344 which legalises same-sex marriage in France"?. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:09, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Does the law need to be signed in order to go into effect? Sorry, I don't know how French law works, so I will say this.  If the legalization of gay marriage has gone into effect, it should be mentioned.  But if there are additional steps that have not yet been completed, it should not.  A Quest For Knowledge (talk)


 * Oppose per Gwickwire. When does this stop? Or is there an agenda we need to feed? μηδείς (talk) 00:24, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support once the law is signed or otherwise formally adopted. This isn't the "umpteenth time" a nation has done this; it's only the 14th if I'm not mistaken(not even 10 percent of sovereign states) so pro-gay marriage is still a minority position, especially where homosexuality is a death penalty offense in some places.  We're also not dealing with relatively small New Zealand, but a nation of 65 million people, and still a largely Catholic nation.  There has also been violent riots due to the passing of this law. 331dot (talk) 02:38, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Then let's post when "some places" where "homosexuality is a death penalty offense" legalize it, because then it's important. Umpteenth by definition is something 10-20 that is unremembered by me :) Also, riots are news then. But the law isn't. I highly doubt our readers care about the 14th country to do something in the world, it's far from a first in any method of looking at it. gwickwire  talk editing 03:05, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I would submit that it is important when a nation of 65 million which has some level of influence in the world does something that is a minority position in the world, even if they weren't the first to do it. New Zealand might be too small to be noteworthy, but France isn't. 331dot (talk) 03:19, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * And I would submit that it's not important every time a large country has a minority opinion. The USA uses the customary system for measurements, and that's not an ITN sticky for being a minority opinion (although we'd probably post it if they changed their mind). But what this is is just a notch on the stick, gay rights isn't really a minority opinion anymore on the global scale, it's almost 50/50, so we don't need to post when every country gives in if you want to put it that way. gwickwire  talk editing 03:35, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The US using imperial measurements is not in the news currently that I am aware of, as we have used them for quite some time. We're also not talking about a sticky.  This is "in the news", not "things the US does that the rest of the world doesn't", and this law is currently in the news globally.  It would be quite different if we were talking about simply posting that gay marriage is legal in, say, Canada, where it has been for a few years.  That's not in the news.  Gay marriage is a minority opinion globally in terms of nations where it is legal.  Even if the people are 50/50, that means nothing until it results in laws being passed, which is difficult in many countries. 331dot (talk) 10:14, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support this is generating significant coverage. I don't know why ITN precedent says these aren't notable enough to be posted.    Hot Stop     (Talk)   05:43, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Much more in favor of getting a bigger country into such a blurb than something like New Zealand (no offense; I love my Kiwi friends, haha). I simply did not want to see this turn into a blurb frenzy, as I seem to have rightfully pointed out in the last nom. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  06:01, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per Hot Stop.-- В и к и  T  07:57, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose unless there are massive/widespread protests; per Kevin McE.  Spencer T♦ C 08:23, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * There has been widespread and sometimes violent protests, as well as an increase in anti-gay violence:,  331dot (talk) 10:20, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * In that case, neutral, but Bill_344 needs an update for recent reactions to the bill passing.  Spencer T♦ C 02:37, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * strong oppose 1. New Zealand was a precedent as the first in the region and this is no big achievement cause its neither first nor a landmark. 2. there was clear consensus in New Zealand and it was still not posted.Lihaas (talk) 10:32, 24 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose The vast majority of votes came from the ruling party, so the bill is largely biased. The votes have not been distributed more evenly among the National Assembly parties. Brandmeistertalk  21:36, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Where else are the votes supposed to come from? The majority party in any legislative body gets to decide what happens there.  This isn't any different. 331dot (talk) 01:14, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Absolutely wrong, 331Dot. You might want to look at the 1964 Civil Rights Act which got overwhelming support among the minority Republicans and would not have passed or even got 40% of the vote without it. μηδείς (talk) 01:23, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I am not "absolutely wrong". The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act was only passed with Democratic votes in the US. It happens that way most of the time; the Civil Rights Act is an exception. 331dot (talk) 01:28, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * My point here is that it doesn't matter where the votes come from; all that matters is that it passed. 331dot (talk) 01:31, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the honest reassessment. μηδείς (talk) 01:37, 25 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support per nom, and as none of the opposes provides a good argument against. This is global news, with major implication on civil rights in a country with tens of millions of inhabitants, concluding an intense and prolonged public debate. -- ELEKHHT 21:07, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The riots are apparently global news. μηδείς (talk) 21:35, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Without the law, there would be no riots. 331dot (talk) 21:36, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The passing of the law is global news, if you care to read the sources provided above. -- ELEKHHT 22:00, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Boston Marathon bombings sticky
The case is still rapidly updating and the investigation is in the preliminary stages, especially now that the suspect is alive and talking. This is obviously a candidate for a sticky. Secret account 15:25, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose I feel as an ITN story it's now finished. The last item of real significance for ITN was the manhunt last Friday.  A lot of the stories I read on the BBC are starting to discuss the finer points of law rather than give anything fundamentally new and ground-breaking.  This is not a series of conflict-related stories, it's a single event and it's mostly over now.  I'd happily support a new ITN when a guilty/non-guilty verdict is delivered by a court of law. CaptRik (talk) 15:39, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose, since only details are being added to the story. No significant change regarding suspects or victims.Egeymi (talk) 17:33, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Manhunt completed very quickly. Details now will trickle out over weeks and months. The TV keeps talking because that's its' job, but there is nothing to say. --IP98 (talk) 20:24, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Stickies are for events with major ongoing impact, not routine updates on a resultant investigation or legal proceedings. —David Levy 20:35, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Barring anything else, the next time I suspect the event would be ITN-worthy is on arraignment of the surviving suspect in trial proceedings. Certainly not a sticky for that. --M ASEM (t) 20:40, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose - this item has run its course already and is no longer going on. It would only be a sticky if there were more bombings currently happening. Simply south...... eating shoes for just 7 years 20:41, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Event is over. When he can speak, the defendant will say he and his brother acted alone. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:16, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Pile on oppose; it appears that the alleged perpetrators acted on their own, so a sticky is no longer necessary. 331dot (talk) 02:41, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose I doubt the article will be updated as regularly now that one scumbag is in custody and the other is road kill.   Hot Stop     (Talk)   05:40, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Richie Havens for recent deaths

 * Weak oppose. It seems like he is mainly famous for being the opening act at Woodstock. Which does mean he made a bit of musical history in his own way. But will we also be posting the death of the guy who made the announcement about brown acid? Or Jimi Hendrix's guitar technician? Formerip (talk) 13:05, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Might could support this if, as with the Divinyl's singer, there were a full five-sentence three source minimum update showing comment on their importance at their passing. Something is better than nothing. μηδείς (talk) 15:57, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Made up "rules" again Meds, made up "rules". Do you really believe that a "five sentence, three source" charade is actually correct?  What if someone posted a "four sentence, four source" update?  Or a "six sentence, two source" update?  What a crock!  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:00, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Medeis didn't even oppose - he posted a way for the nominator to garner a support vote. Update quality is part of the ITN criteria no matter how badly some people want it not to be.  Item can (should) be judged both on importance and update quality. --ThaddeusB (talk) 00:44, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - Havens was already a legendary figure - perhaps not at a Bob Dylan level, but still legendary - who got the ball rolling by playing 3 hours at Woodstock, the concert that was arguably the high-water mark of the counter-culture 60's. I call that notable enough for ITN. The article is adequate, and I submit this is a good candidate for RD. Jus  da  fax   04:53, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support mythical rules met. Clearly notable, major news outlets using terms like "icon", widely reported.  The Rambling Man (talk) 07:50, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, a major and influential figure in popular music. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:57, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: I've removed the "update needed" bit, as the information on his death and impact has been significantly expanded over the past day. There have been many editors in this area, but I've also added the names of the three most significant updaters.  -- Jayron  32  13:13, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support as a remarkable person and one of the most famous folk rock singers in his generation.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 14:01, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support given update, marking ready. μηδείς (talk) 15:24, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted to recent deaths. --Bongwarrior (talk) 16:55, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Authorities foil terrorist plot in Canada

 * Support Big news for the reasons given in the nomination. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:01, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Nothing actually happened. CSIS and the RCMP have been planning the arrest for several months now, and basically acted on it solely because of what happened in Boston. They had everything under control the entire time, and while that is admirable, it isn't really notable. Note: I am Canadian. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  05:11, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * on that one. All three source above have explicitly denied a connection to the Boston events, if you have a source to the contrary, please share... -- Jayron  32  05:28, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * One of the suspects began to act "strangely" and the RCMP was tipped off. They were arrested accordingly. The media is speculating a political motive to Boston, perhaps to lead the public into believing that the government is actually doing something about terrorism, but yeah, it's just speculation. Everything else I said is perfectly ground in fact,  and I encourage you to look at sources pertaining to the country in question instead of solely American sources. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  05:54, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose "Terrorism doesn't happen". We are not a news agency. -- RA (talk) 05:51, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose, I think everyday such events occur everywhere, why only those in Canada should be ITN material? Egeymi (talk) 08:07, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Not that notable, and I'm even more cynical about the timing. Some politicians are trying to rush some tougher anti-terror legislation through parliament. How convenient that this arrest happens just now... HiLo48 (talk) 08:52, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. A non-event. 331dot (talk) 11:32, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. 'Event doesn't happen' isn't significant in encyclopaedia terms. I'm sure there are dozens of these sorts of events per year, they just mostly don't make it to the newspapers. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 11:36, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose we have no idea how many of these so-called terrorist attacks are foiled well before they actually happen. Just so happens the Canadians wanted to brag about something for a change.  This sort of thing has been going on for decades.  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:03, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmm? I think the TV is only talking about this because of what happened in Boston, but on what grounds do you make the statement the Canadians wanted to brag about something for a change. --IP98 (talk) 10:35, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Manchester United wins Premier League

 * Question can someone please explain to me what the "top of sport" is for association football. Is the the Premier League, or the UEFA European Football Championship, the UEFA Champions League, the FIFA World Cup, what? --IP98 (talk) 23:31, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not easy task to say what is the "top of sport" in football, because many players are eligible to play in each of the competitions you mention. Each of them is explained in turn:
 * Premier League - the top football club competition in the English football, specifically consisting of football clubs from England and Wales;
 * UEFA Champions League - the top football club competition in Europe, consisting of clubs from many different European countries based on the UEFA coefficient assigned to each league;
 * UEFA European Football Championship - the top football competition for national teams in Europe, in which only national teams representing the European countries are eligible to play;
 * FIFA World Cup - the top football competition for national teams in the world, in which, similarly to the UEFA Euro, national teams representing countries from different parts of the world are eligible to play.
 * Very important to mention is that a footballer can play in each of these competitions. For example, Manchester United's striker Wayne Rooney has played in the Premier League and the UEFA Champions League representing his club, and at the UEFA Euro and FIFA World Cup as part of the England national team.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 00:18, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * the EPL isn't the top competition in football in any way. It's on ITNR for other reasons, namely it's popularity and its interest among English speakers.--Johnsemlak (talk) 02:37, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's the top competition in the English football. What is the top then if not this one?--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 10:34, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you Kiril. It almost seems like the same group of footballers are eligible to play in 3 different championships a year? Is any one considered "highest"? Per WP:NCAA we only post top level competitions, regardless of attendance, media coverage, revenue, etc, and I'm just trying to figure out what the one ruling association football championship would be. So now Man-U (but certainly not Liverpool) will represent GB in the UEFA Champions League? In that case, isn't the Premier League, though the top of English football, just a qualifier for European football? --IP98 (talk) 10:48, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * IP98 It's a bit more nuanced than that. You're correct of course, the EPL isn't the 'top competition' of its sport.  But it isn't just a 'qualifier' though by winning the EPL Manchester United will represent England (minor note, England, not GB) in the Champions League.  Actually, the top 4 English clubs will all qualify for the Champions League, not just Manchester United.  However, the Premier League title still has a great deal of significance--and as many posters have noted, is very widely followed around the world. including in New York where I currently live (note to self--need to update User page), not unlike how the NBA is followed around the world. The Premier League is a title that carries a fair bit of prestige in and of itself.  This 'top competition' criterion is really a straw man.  It's not an official ITN criterion--that was dropped a while ago.  The real reason the NCAA is usually not posted is because of the perception that it isn't an 'internationally followed' tournament.  The EPL is most certainly followed widely around the world.--Johnsemlak (talk) 11:06, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The real reason NCAA is (sometimes) not posted is b/c enough people who don't like sports and Europeans have a preconceived notion about amateur sports and cannot comprehend how important they are in the United States. Every year it is proven beyond doubt that NCAA basketball (and probably also football) is covered in almost every 1st world country around the world and yet people say "the fact that it wasn't covered in Uganda proves it is of little interest internally" to justify their biases about the amateur nature of the competition/sport in general. --ThaddeusB (talk) 00:54, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It really is impressive how people selectively use the "top level of the sport" criterion. It boggles the mind. – H T  D  06:03, 24 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support. Premier League says: "The Premier League is the most-watched football league in the world, broadcast in 212 territories to 643 million homes and a TV audience of 4.7 billion people."  The source is the official site and I don't know whether the numbers are inflated but I do believe it's the most watched football league. It's a national league but has lots of foreign elite players. The "top of sport" is international non-league tournaments with fewer matches. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:59, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That would mean there are 7.3 people watching, on average, in each of the 643 million homes. Possible, but I reckon Wikipedia hasn't really thought about what it is saying. Formerip (talk) 00:11, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The TV audience of 4.7 billion is the estimated total viewers for all matches together. Manchester United alone gets around half of that. The article should probably clarify the meaning. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:21, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Since people watching in pubs and bars would be counted towards the viewers, but not the homes, it might not be that unbelievable MChesterMC (talk) 08:59, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Tariq is correct - the real "rules" are that the article and update both be of sufficient quality. Five sentences is a guideline to give an about what usually qualifies as sufficient - it is neither a minimum or a guarantee of quality. We wouldn't post a new article with only 5 sentences in it, nor should we post an existing article that has a mere 1.5 paragraphs of text even if most of that text is an update which like would be sufficient in an already well developed article. Finally, it is shameful that the "world's most popular league" doesn't attract enough attention to have an actual (prose) article written about it. --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:02, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support as ITN/R. -- RA (talk) 00:08, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per ITN/R. The Premier League is more than important football league for inclusion with decent media coverage in many countries in the world during the whole season.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 00:18, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose per lack of substantial prose update, and as too early. There has not been a substantial prose summary of the entire season in the article 2012–13 Premier League, which is the bolded article, and it should be noted, though Man. U. has clinched the Premiership, the season has not yet concluded.  Seems like jumping the gun a bit, to me.  That's less of a problem, however, then the paltry lack of prose in the article.  It's a brief lead section and a bunch of tables.  How about a week-by-week prose summary?  Some general overview of key events of the season?  I'm not as concerned about the fact that the season isn't over yet (though it is a concern) as to the fact that I would not feel comfortable promoting the currently bolded article to main page with the lack of prose that it has.  If and when the prose in the article significantly summarizes the season, you can consider this to be a support.  But what I see now is not main-page worthy, even if it is ITNR, which is only about significance and does not excuse problems with the article.  Or, if you want another article to be the focus article of the blurb, do that so we can review that one.  -- Jayron  32  00:55, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The news is that Manchester United have clinched the title before the conclusion of the football league; it won't be a news after the conclusion of the final week, as it will be something that is already known. As for the lack of update, the sentence in the introduction is enough and clearly indicates who, when and in what way has won the league. Unlike many other sport events that are posted on the main page the Premier League doesn't end with a final game, so it's not necessary to use more prose and the idea to provide summary for the games played every weak is overly. More importantly, the same story is posted every year with the same structure of the article and I don't see a reason why to do it in a different way.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 01:17, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Mistakes made in the past do not excuse continuing to make them. If articles of substandard quality were posted before, we can't fix that now, but what we can do is make this one better before we post it on the main page as a focus article for a blurb.  I'm not at all opposed to posting this based on significance, the EPL is clearly one of the premier sporting leagues in the world, and its winner should bear mention on ITN, but I cannot support highlighting an article in a state that I consider poor quality.  And if ITN posted similarly poor quality articles in the past, I can't correct that.  But we should make this one better.  -- Jayron  32  04:03, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, the update is important indeed, but we really don't need to consider our users morons that will not understand the introduction and the tables with the statistics in the article. Summarizing the games from every week is equal as to demand summaries for each game played in the NBA league, which has never been requested and the conclusion has always been posted. Sorry if there is no league-system in your country to understand better how does it work. Manchester United have won the title because of the scores in 34 games up to date and not by playing only one or series of games in a final, so to document each of these 34 games is silly and a dumb idea.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 10:41, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It would be if we bolded 2012–13 NBA season. The bolded article should be free from any glaring omissions.  If you want to suggest another article to bold which is relatively well updated, feel free to do so.  For example, if the blurb bolded a link 2012–13 Manchester United F.C. season, that would be acceptable based on the level of updates, as the entirety of the season is summarized there.  Sadly, that section is almost entirely unreferenced, but if one could add references to the season summary from the 2012–13 Manchester United F.C. season then we have a good, relatively complete and well updated article to bold, and then we could get this on the main page immediately.  Or spend your energy arguing why it is better to not improve Wikipedia articles.  Your choice.   -- Jayron  32  12:43, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The shape of the article you're referring to is not relevant as it is not mentioned in the blurb. It needs better update as well, but not as mandatory for posting on the main page.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 13:49, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That article would be a better target for the pointer, as it is reasonably complete and only needs a few citations to bring it up to snuff. The one that's there now is not sufficiently updated.  Again, it is clear that you are more interested in arguing than in making Wikipedia articles which you have an interested in a higher quality.  I can't fathom why it is better to have any article be of lower quality than it is possible to be, but hey, if it makes you happy to insist that articles remain shitty, I really don't know what to say about that.  -- Jayron  32  19:24, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The blurb article has the mythical "five sentence, three source" update applied. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:29, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose any mention of '20th title'.--Johnsemlak (talk) 02:37, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Fixed in the alternative blurb.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 10:57, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Compared to the Champion's League, EPL is simply a minor league. On top of that, there is no tournament format to determine a champion. Thankfully, La Liga champions are not noted here. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 03:46, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The "tournament format to determine a champion" is the, in North American English, "regular season" per se. – H T  D  03:58, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It isn't a minor league compared to anything, and any claims as such demonstrates your own lack of understanding of how professional soccer works to a level which completely discredits whatever you might have to say on the matter. -- Jayron  32  04:00, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment The Premier League article needs expansion before it can be posted. There's no update there. The Manchester United article is pretty long, but also needs prose about the win over Aston Villa. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:18, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support once updated. One of the most popular and most watched football leagues in the world.--<font color="#87A96B">xanchester <font color="#A40000">(t)  04:23, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per Xanchester. Plus since it's ITN/R then we only need update to post, which to me seems already there.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  09:21, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support as per PrimeHunter's reasoning, arguably the most watched football league in the world. --Droodkin (talk) 09:52, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Ready There is a whole paragraph in the intro about this, which seems to be more than enough for its immediate inclusion. I cannot see what else should be done with the article. If you think that the numbers from the tables should be reworded into prose text, it's definitely a very dumb idea that will surely not make any help for the reader.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 10:49, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * NOT READY. Update is 2 sentences.  Also, in several places that article isn't up to date (e.g. it still states Manchester CIty ARE the defending champions).--Johnsemlak (talk) 11:12, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong Wait until the season is over. Man-U may have clinched it, but with the attention 2012–13 Premier League will get from ITN, the season should be complete so reader see the standings for the other teams. --IP98 (talk) 10:53, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Then the item will not be "in the news" as it's the fact Man Utd have won the title that is generating this discussion. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:11, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * We post the conclusion of the Premier League every year, the conclusion will be in the news. --IP98 (talk) 11:48, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The Premier League has been won last night, not at the end of the season. It's news as of last night.  It won't be news at the end of the season. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:50, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You really believe that the end of the season will be a "ho-hum" event that no one pays attention to? Aston Villa may still be relegated to the Football League, LFC might still top Everton. If you genuinely believe that now, not at the end of the season, is the time to post the "conclusion of the 2012-13 Premier League" then fine, but a pre-strongest possible oppose for posting the end of the season when the standings for the 19 other teams is known. --IP98 (talk) 11:57, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The blurb will say the league concludes with Manchester United winning. It won't care who gets relegated and it certainly won't care whether Liverpool or Everton finish higher.  The news item is that Manchester United have won the league, not that the league has concluded for the season. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:01, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Post now (once the article is sufficiently updated). This is when the news story is, and it avoids having all our football items within a week or two of each other at the end of the season. Normally we use a 'concludes with' phrasing to avoid the win/wins ENGVAR issue, but that doesn't apply here and I can't think of a good alternative. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 11:29, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * In this case we can't use "concludes with" because the season has not concluded. --IP98 (talk) 11:49, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Exactly, that's why I said 'doesn't apply here'. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 12:36, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support obviously this is news today and won't be news (in the literal sense) in four weeks time... The Rambling Man (talk) 12:01, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm about to post, but the question is should I remove either the Boston Marathon one (still in the news as subject is talking) or the Albania relations one which is stale. Secret account 12:26, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you answered your own question....! The Rambling Man (talk) 12:55, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Except...what Albania relations one? I don't see it there. Formerip (talk) 13:01, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I meant Serbia, they both had the same date of posting, so it was easy to remove that one. Secret account 15:19, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support now and keep the marathon (or at least keep the marathon as a sticky). Nergaal (talk) 13:12, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think we need to discuss the marathon as a sticky, as the news been very active the last few days. Also posting. Secret account 15:19, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Uhhh, where's the update...?--Johnsemlak (talk) 15:49, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the update is poor to non-existent. The 2013 Major League Baseball season article has more information and that season just started a few weeks ago. --  tariq abjotu  16:06, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Article has five sentence/four source update. Matches the "requirements".  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:11, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You simply don't need to waste your time with the "trolls" who cannot find a strong argument to oppose this and are willing to advertise something that is not true. The paragraph consisted of five sentences and four references even before the first comment after posting.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 21:56, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It most certainly did not Kiril. It was a mere two sentences at time of posting.  And posters who are concerned about the update quality are not 'trolls'.  Interesting that the Super Bowl always gets blocked until it's update is pristine though...--Johnsemlak (talk) 22:05, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The last paragraph in the intro of the article consisted of more than two sentences as of 14:45 which is even before posting, concluding that the admin posted it because of the longer update provided. For the Super Bowl it's the same story as well, with some users having a "trollish" behaviour to halt its posting. You have my full support in it.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 22:18, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * So, it is now trolling to be concerned for the quality of articles. Interesting.  I thought what we were here to do was to make encyclopedia articles better.  What do you propose is the reason for being here?  -- Jayron  32  22:22, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * As an admin you should stop to be so arrogant. The problem is not to be concerned for the quality of articles, but to advertise the problem again after it has been already solved. Please check my comment and then come here to argue with me.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 22:28, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * After it's been solved? The five-sentence metric is a minimum, not something that automatically constitutes a sufficient update. An article that has prose about the outcome of the season but no prose about the season itself is not sufficient. --  tariq abjotu  22:40, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Can you tell me where did you read that a five-sentence metric is a minimum? I couldn't find it in any rule. Else, we have another admin who doesn't know the rules on Wikipedia and tries to use a non-existing one to illustrate his point.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 22:58, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "Doesn't know the rules on Wikipedia"? Like WP:BURO? As I'm sure you're aware, I very frequently update ITN; I think I have some idea of the "rules" around here. The point of the update requirement is to ensure that the article contains information about the subject advertised. Sure, it's got five sentences about Man U winning, but they're in the lead and followed by an entire "article" of just tables. We don't need FA-level here, but you've got to be kidding if you think that's sufficient information about the topic. The article needs something about what happened during the 2012-13 season, you know, the topic of the article. The article was (and still is) incredibly woeful given the apparent popularity of the league. I can count at least two other experienced editors and contributors to this project who feel the same way, countered only by your snide attacks. --  tariq abjotu  23:50, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You don't need to count people who share the same opinion with you, as Wikipedia hopefully is not a prominent place for lobbying whether you're right or not. My comments or "snide attacks" as you call them are not against particular users here, but addressed to everyone who drastically violates the rules or tries to illustrate a point with no arguments or fake arguments that are eventually attributed to the arbitrary interpretation of the bureaucracy on Wikipedia. Now it's too late to continue a discussion for something that has already appeared on the main page.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 00:17, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Concur with ThaddeusB and Tariq; this was prematurely posted given the overall quality of the article at the time of posting. Thank you Jayron for your article expansion.  Spencer T♦ C 08:41, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Chrissy Amphlett for recent deaths

 * Oppose - I'm not very familiar with this person, so I could be swayed, but I don't think she qualifies as top of her field. Her band had success, but not enough for its individual members to be ITN material. --Bongwarrior (talk) 17:56, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Her band had one big hit, which isn't cited as evolving the genre or having any significant lasting impact. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:25, 22 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose Just list in recent deaths. Nowhere near notable enough for ITN. --Kitch (Talk : Contrib) 21:04, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Could might support this if it were fully updated and the reason for her death explained. Something is better than nothing. μηδείς (talk) 22:26, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Nowhere near to being at the top of her field. Kevin McE (talk) 22:48, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Not at or even near the top of her field. 331dot (talk) 02:57, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment This currently has a four sentence update, with two of those sentences needing references. μηδείς (talk) 01:23, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Bangladesh election

 * Support when updated But it does need expansion. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:01, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per ITN/R but 'election' was, as I understand it, simply confirmation in parliament as election was unopposed. Election article not a viable target for blurb (scarcely viable as an article), as no real election to report on.  Suggest that Hamid's own article be expanded on official inauguration tomorrow, and that that be the bolded article. It is a notable event, but not that much to say about it: minimal update is all there is to say. Kevin McE (talk) 05:55, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sowas Yemen's which we posted. Granted it was popular election but unopposed.Lihaas (talk) 12:10, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I would still like 2-3 more sentences before posting that... --Tone 19:54, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] 2013 Belgorod shooting
At least 6 people were killed in a shooting in Belgorod, Russia. - RT - Eugεn  S¡m¡on  (14) ®  14:09, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The death toll of less than 10 is surpassed by many other recent tragedies listed at Portal:Current events. Thus, I think an ITN listing would require some additional extraordinary circumstances, which I don't directly see here. Mikael Häggström (talk) 15:49, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. per Mikael. 331dot (talk) 16:32, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose based on article quality: Needs a massive expansion. If article is improved to standards, I would change my vote to Weak support based on news coverage: major sources are covering it, but what I find is fairly cursory, except perhaps Russian sources, which I don't read, but based on length do seem likel to be giving a very in-depth coverage of it.  -- Jayron  32  17:25, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support once updated; this is not an area that often sees such incidents. And can someone fix the missing templates for this and other proposals, please? AlexTiefling (talk) 19:40, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong support If the article gets updated. Ryan Vesey 20:46, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose, nutjob shoots because his car was scratched, local, no lasting impact, article should be deleted, not featured on the main page. Abductive  (reasoning) 03:36, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose According to smh, five died in a shooting incident in Seattle yesterday. It's clear from all this that gun violence is becoming increasingly common. YuMaNuMa Contrib 05:51, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Talk about observer bias. Seattle and Belgorod are rather far apart and have very different social and legal contexts. AlexTiefling (talk) 07:01, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If anything, Russia is more prone to such violence as indicated by its homicide rate, hence making such incidents more common. Also, I cannot see the relevance of the legal context of either nations to whether this is ITN worthy; social context - maybe. YuMaNuMa Contrib 07:21, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Seattle isn't a place known for violence also compared to other major cities here in the United States, so I put it in the same category as this, neither of them deserves an article. Secret account 12:23, 23 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose per Abductive. Spot on. --IP98 (talk) 10:42, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Carandiru Massacre convictions

 * Support as nom - Just grabbed this from Current events - it seems like it ought to be nominated. EdwardLane (talk) 16:41, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support pending update it needs some work. Reactions, etc. --IP98 (talk) 23:42, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] First Antares launch

 * Support current ITN/R and the article is in good condition (although currently fails the fake "requirements", so don't be surprised you get asked for "reactions", "two more sentences" or something similarly banal from some of the ITN hordes)... The Rambling Man (talk) 21:27, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, updating is a real requirement and there is obviously more to say about the launch than merely that it occurred. Not sure why expecting items on "in the news" to contain news that is covered is dozens of easily available sources is "banal", but I never seem to have trouble updating stories I want posted. --ThaddeusB (talk) 21:44, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I fully expect the article to be "updated" in the next half hour or so. Certainly by the time it's found its way through this process. --<font color="#115566">W. <font color="#364966">D.  <font color="#496636">Graham  21:32, 21 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support pending update the Antares_A-ONE article might actually be a better candidate once it gets a tense update. The Antares article "Launches" section is basically a stub with a table of proposed future launches. No mention of the two scrubbed attempts, of the launch facility, payload or mission objectives. Compare to Soyuz_TMA-08M which was recently posted. --IP98 (talk) 23:12, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support I would like to see Orbital Sciences Corporation mentioned in the blurb, or at least state that it was privately launched.  (I think it would be a good idea, but I also have no idea what precedence is or if there are any compelling reasons not to, so don't think of this as a hard requirement for my support) Ryan Vesey 23:28, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, a milestone in a huge project. Mikael Häggström (talk) 15:53, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Updated - I've also changed the blurb to include OSC. I think this is ready. --<font color="#115566">W. <font color="#364966">D.  <font color="#496636">Graham  20:34, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Not noteworthy enough. With SpaceX taking all the commercial firsts, this is just the first launch of a particular kind of rocket. Maybe when they succeed with docking a Cygnus to the ISS. --Kitch (Talk : Contrib) 20:56, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Per WP:ITN/R, "the first launch of a particular kind of rocket" is considered significant enough to include. --<font color="#115566">W. <font color="#364966">D.  <font color="#496636">Graham 
 * Oppose I'd like a link to the discussion that got this added to ITNR. Until then it's just a commercial roll-out, however in favor of it I am. μηδείς (talk) 21:05, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - Significant tech development and of worldwide interest, with a decent article. Opposers reasoning is unconvincing. ITNR a factor as well. Jus  da  fax   01:17, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted - local consensus & ITN/R agree this should be posted --ThaddeusB (talk) 04:59, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Paraguayan election, 2013

 * Oppose! Lugo is not running! Well, apart from that, ITNR, hence support when updated. --Tone 14:42, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No problem at all. We just run Lugo's photo and put "Previous incumbent pictured" in brackets. Formerip (talk) 17:52, 21 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment The article is going to need a substantial update. I thought of the possibility of bolding the winner instead, but somehow those are both stubs. Ryan Vesey 17:59, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Reply what's wrong with the article? There was a campaign, exit polls, just need a results table and a one-liner about the winner and it's done. We recently established that the 5 sentence prose update is a suggestion, not a requirement. I don't see why that should only apply to death noms. --IP98 (talk) 18:12, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Article quality is always a consideration and a valid reason to oppose (or in this case merely comment). Five sentences is a guideline - sometimes more is needed to make the article acceptable, sometimes less is needed.  --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:57, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Ready. We have results with 99.3% of the ballots counted and a reactions section (with five sentences of prose!). So, I think it's ready to be posted. --RJFF (talk) 18:38, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have also expanded the article on Cartes a bit, so it is not too stubby anymore. --RJFF (talk) 19:04, 22 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment Can we bold the article on Cartes and not the election? The election article is bad.  The five sentence guideline refers to an update to an article not about the event.  If the bolded article is the event, the update has to be more.  I've proposed an alt blurb. Ryan Vesey 20:25, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The elections article should be bolded in the item (and imo could use some more expansion), not the Cartes article.  Spencer T♦ C 07:11, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posting first blurb, article improved. Secret account 12:31, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] 2013 London Marathon

 * Wasn't posted last year, apparently. Besides, the article needs lots of lots of work before serious consideration. --Tone 14:44, 21 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose I'm not a fan of supporting an item simply because it's in ITN/R. Such marathons are local events for those who are interested and aren't major sport events of international significance. Brandmeistertalk  14:49, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * What the hell is this kind of farce? Wasn't posted last year? But it's ITNR! What's the POINT? Someone needs to get some reforms in here. Further more: The London Marathon is bigger and certainly more notable than the Boston Marathon, but that was posted because of the bombings. If the London Marathon gets struck off ITN/R then ALL of the Marathons should be. --85.210.102.71 (talk) 15:44, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It wasn't posted last year because of lack of updates. Assuming updates occur, it will be posted this year regardless of opposition - that is how ITN/R works. --ThaddeusB (talk) 16:10, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * BTW, claiming London is more important than Boston in a normal year is ridiculous. Boston is the oldest and most prestigious marathon. --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:31, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think it was in London where the length of the modern marathon has been established. Dunno if it's this race or some other marathon ran in London... – H T  D  17:41, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * See Polytechnic Marathon. Ryan Vesey 17:43, 21 April 2013 (UTC)


 * No, ITNR is based on presumed consensus, and if there's significant opposition there is obviously not such consensus. μηδείς (talk) 16:25, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No, silly, that would make ITNR pointless in principle. Formerip (talk) 17:28, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeed, Meds' suggestion would make a mockery of the whole principle of ITN/R. The point of ITN/R is that it's just the update that needs to be assessed, not whether there's a consensus that the item is notable enough for ITN.  Or perhaps we should revisit ITN/R...... again......  The Rambling Man (talk) 21:15, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose unless there's a significant record set or other actual news. μηδείς (talk) 16:24, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That's not relevant; if you oppose this event being on ITNR, then propose its removal; otherwise, it can be posted once appropriately updated. 331dot (talk) 20:26, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Invalid oppose, the correct course of action is its removal from ITN/R. See that through, don't let this chance to reconfigure ITN/R die on the vine....  The Rambling Man (talk) 21:16, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support pending sufficient update Major sporting event, biggest and one of the most prestigious marathons in the world. -- Jayron  32  16:47, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - article is now sufficiently updated. --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:30, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support on ITN/R and one of the World Marathon Majors. --IP98 (talk) 17:32, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support The article has been sufficiently updated and the arguments against posting are weak. The World Marathon Majors races are the top level of a sport of international interest. Ryan Vesey 17:40, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted --  tariq abjotu  18:03, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - Are the wheelchair versions notable enough as well? Simply south...... eating shoes for just 7 years 18:13, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * We can't fit everything in the blurb, so I'd say no. --  tariq abjotu  18:55, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It would preferable if we could reorganise the blurb to accommodate the wheelchair winners, can you suggest one? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:18, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Severely Oppose. Would Wiki be willing to note every marathon winner? There are literally hundreds of those out there; or would the 6 Marathon Majors be enough?  To debunct above opinions, I'm sorry, Boston is more prestigiuos than London, primarily in terms of inception. But it is ridiculous to claim one World Major marathon as more prestigious than another. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 03:41, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The place to express such an argument is over at ITNR, by proposing its removal. Until it is removed from there, it will get posted. 331dot (talk) 03:43, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * ITN/R currently lists the 5 older Marathon Majors. It doesn't list Tokyo, I'm guessing either because no one added it yet or because people are planning to give it time to see if it's clearly established as another Marathon Major or if it only lasts a year or two. The arguments both here and above about whether the London or Boston marathon are more prestigious seem besides the point. We would have posted Boston were it not for the bombings superseding the results of the marathon itself (I think it's clear either a combined blurb or another blurb just under the bombings would have seem at the very least odd). Nil Einne (talk) 14:33, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Greece
I'm not sure whether this is a candidate for the Main Page but Greece announces that it will sell off national assets in an attempt to meet its financial obligations. Greek government-debt crisis countermeasures and Greek government-debt crisis and possibly European sovereign-debt crisis are the articles which would need to be updated, I assume. I believe this is major news as a country is having to sell national assets, including islands and palaces, to avoid sovereign bankruptcy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrandrewnohome (talk • contribs)
 * It's interesting but I don't think there is anything we can really post at this time. Perhaps the actual sale of the properties would be ITN-worthy though.   Hot Stop     (Talk)   04:53, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Italian presidential election, 2013

 * Support Although it's not a popular vote election (then again, neither are American presidential elections, but at least they try to imitate one) and the President of Italy has relatively little power compared to Italy's Prime Minister, I think the election of the head of state of a major European country should be on ITN. Note that there's also the article Italian presidential election, 2013 (added to blurb) --hydrox (talk) 17:21, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: this qualifies as WP:ITNR, which states 'Indirect elections, including papal elections, are also included'. So we can post as soon as the article is up to scratch. The final two rounds and the result need citations. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 17:35, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Obvious recurring item. King of &hearts;   &diams;   &clubs;  &spades; 21:53, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posting. --Tone 22:53, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Sichuan earthquake

 * Support - Death toll growing. Significant event.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 03:16, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - Chinese sources report at least 44 people dead. And the photos are pretty terrifying too. Vegemighty (talk) 04:54, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - Major earthquake. King of &hearts;   &diams;   &clubs;  &spades; 05:05, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - Serious natural disaster with expanding death toll. Update: 56 now reported dead, and I have updated the article accordingly. Could use a bit more work. Jus  da  fax   05:29, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support TheOriginalSoni (talk) 07:17, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. - Death toll is sufficiently high. -LtNOWIS (talk) 08:59, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, significant as much as two recent Iranian earthquakes. Egeymi (talk) 10:35, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, BBC now reporting over 100 killed and many more injured. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:38, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * 150 now. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:57, 20 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment This incident killed far more than either the industrial accident in Texas or the small explosions in Boston, and yet it still is not listed. No doubt because it is a non US event. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.20.31.88 (talk) 14:10, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Or because people like you like to criticize us for being American-centric, without doing anything productive like editing the earthquake's article, which is the only reason why we haven't posted this yet.   Hot Stop     (Talk)   14:27, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's more to do with the fact that the stub has got a whole bunch of maintenance tags. Fix those, this is a no-brainer for posting.  The Rambling Man (talk) 14:33, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That would be doing your job for you. If you think that is going to happen, you are very mistaken. And, citing article maintenance as the reason for not putting it up yet is laughable, I distinctly remember the Boston article being almost unreadable, and yet it was posted almost immediately without any quality control. Thank you for confirming the US Centric bias which exists quite openly on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.20.31.88 (talk) 14:52, 20 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support. A catastrophe. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:06, 20 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support Maintenance tags have been fixed. Is this ready to go up, or still too short? Ryan Vesey 15:08, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Serious disaster --Ushau97 (talk) 15:29, 20 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment Still seems a bit short and below standards for a new article, but I won't remove the [Ready] tag. --  tariq abjotu  16:56, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment When there's nothing more to say, there's nothing more to say. Still, might as well leave it hanging, despite the support and the multiple reliable sources, eh?  The Rambling Man (talk) 16:58, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * To the anon complaining about U.S. bias, this was how the offending article looked like at the time of posting. Compare it with this one... – H T  D  20:13, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Two-and-a-half hours after the Boston bombings had happened, it was posted; the article on the earthquake has been fixed, supported and ready for much more than two-and-a-half hours, regardless of the time the earthquake actually happened, but not posted. Without digressing to the USA's vast over-reaction to two deaths and small bombs that are surpassed pretty much daily worldwide, USA!! USA!! USA!! 129.234.235.25 (talk) 20:02, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Whatever the fuck happened to WP:TPO? I'm reinstating my comment, as no one, Tariqwhateverthefuck, should remove it, no matter how absurd it might have been because it was on topic. Free speech and all that, if we do wanna get political. However, I was aware of the states of articles at the times of (non-)posting. But size is no indicator of quality, and all the necessary information is/was in both articles. I simply don't understand why it is not posted. It is [Ready]! 129.234.235.25 (talk) 20:30, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Size can be a proxy for quality. If this was DYK (the shittiest articles on the Main Page before TAFI came along), this won't also be posted due to the stub tag, and it's less than 1,500 characters. Just barely, though; it's at 1,426. Obviously, ITN's rules doesn't state any size minimum so... – H T  D  20:36, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted. Chamal T •C 21:09, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - Thanks for posting. I have additionally updated the article with a new section on the rescue efforts, which I am sure will be added to as additional reports come in. Obviously any further efforts from ITN commenters will be welcomed. Jus  da  fax   21:15, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Al Neuharth for recent deaths

 *  Oppose  The Wall Street Journal has a higher paid readership and two magnitudes of order higher prestige--Neurath is simply lucky to have sold out to Gannett, kind of like that Napster guy nobody remembers. μηδείς (talk) 02:24, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - Changed the very look of newspapers worldwide, and the way news was covered. Highly worthy of an RD mention, and not to do so in our ITN section would be quite ironic, in my view. Jus  da  fax   05:34, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * How did he "change the very look of newspapers worldwide, and the way news was covered"? His article says nothing like that. HiLo48 (talk) 05:40, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sure it does: He started Today in Cocoa, Florida, which eventually became Florida Today.[2] The color schemes used in Florida Today became an inspiration for the initial format for USA Today. He then ran the boardroom under Miller, whom he eventually succeeded in 1973. He helped to build Gannett into the largest newspaper company in the United States. And although I very, very seldom give my personal pov on Wikipedia, I'll add that I despised Neuharth for what he did to the newsprint field, but fair is fair and this in my considered opinion is a worthy ITN RD candidate. Jus  da  fax   06:16, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Hey, it may well be. I've never heard of the guy (which certainly doesn't rule this out) so that was a genuine question, which you've answered in the worst possible way to avoid suggestions of US-centrism. I read the whole article. I read that section you quoted. It speaks of his achievements in the US, which are clearly great, but in no way does it support your claim that he "changed the very look of newspapers worldwide"? This may well be something worth posting, but perhaps you can lay back a bit on the rhetoric. It's not likely to help. HiLo48 (talk) 08:12, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I suppose my "claim" can be considered OR. More personal pov, then... I have been a newspaper junkie all my life, and have traveled to many countries over the decades, completely around the world on one trip. I noticed when USA Today took off, the copycat trend of shorter articles began in many other worldwide English-language newspapers, as well as colorful "splashy" graphics. Often USA Today was the only US newspaper I could find on my travels; it was for sale from London to Bali and beyond. So in my view, I have no problem with "rhetoric," as I know what the truth is. Does Neuharth's Wikipedia article lay that all out as I have done here, in explaination? No, though there is probably an obit that makes this all clear. Does it matter to me? No. Do I care if I "win" this argument? Not at all. But I respect the nominator greatly, and have spoken up on a nomination I personally don't give a hoot about seeing on the Front page because it is the right thing to do, and arguably makes the Front page and ITN more comprehensive and informative... in my opinion. And as you likely know, "US-centric" considerations, pro or con, carry zero weight with me. Jus  da  fax   08:41, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * There was no argument here. Not until that post anyway. I was seeking clarification and information. Thank you for providing it, and highlighting that it's unsourced and not in the subject's article. HiLo48 (talk) 08:54, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Regarding the use of color, that was not an innovation of Neurath's--routine full-color printing in newspapers only just became economically viable at that point and was soon adopted as industry standard. There's nothing about the color logo of USA Today or its color formats in general worth noting. μηδείς (talk) 15:55, 20 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Weak Oppose. He was a newspaper publisher who simply had a unique way of carrying that job out.  Reading his article I don't see much recognition for his accomplishments(such as awards or being in a Hall of Fame). 331dot (talk) 10:53, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * We have another RD nomination below where someone else noted that the person (a Briton) didn't receive any awards (indeed, the word "award" does not appear on his article), but that RD nom was unanimously supported so... – H T  D  11:41, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * So indeed,..... awards or lack thereof are not the only means of judging notability; did this person have wide acclaim or has been the subject of study an analysis? Has the USA Today been called the greatest newspaper of all time?(as one of Thorgerson's album covers was) I only mention awards as one possibility; I'm not seeing much recognition in general here. 331dot (talk) 13:10, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. I don't know much about him but he must have been an influential publisher which seems to be an underrepresented profession. -SusanLesch (talk) 00:52, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Withdraw my oppose and I'll support iff this gets the full five sentence three-reference treatment. Something is better than nothing. μηδείς (talk) 01:50, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Serbia and Kosovo

 * Support. Notable as a significant step forward in their relations. 331dot (talk) 15:29, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per 331dot – Muboshgu (talk) 15:36, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per above, news of countries that were at war, taking official steps to reestablish severed ties is always notable. Wow, I don't believe ITN has seen this many worthy and notable candidates in such a short period of time in quite a while or ever. YuMaNuMa Contrib 15:42, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - While peace deals and changes in international relations come up quite a lot, and are not automatically suitable for ITN, this looks like a really solid candidate. This could represent the end of over 20 years of conflict in the region - many reading this will not remember the collapse of Yugoslavia and the first outbreak of war there. AlexTiefling (talk) 15:55, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, a thawing of a relationship like this is newsworthy. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:01, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - article looks updated to me, if you consider the whole "2013 agreement" section the update (which I think is reasonable). Thue (talk) 16:16, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That section was mostly created by me splitting the "Overview" section in two, only the last paragraph is new. :) LukeSurlt c 16:19, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Doesn't change the fact that everything in that section is related to the ITN blurb, which would make the update sufficient to post. I therefore say the article is ready to post. Thue (talk) 16:26, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Cheers. The BBC updated their story, and I've updated the article accordingly. I think it's about ready to go, but may be improvable once more reports and details come in. LukeSurlt c 16:41, 19 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support. Absolutely. This is a huge deal for Serbia and Kosovo, two countries with once very bitter relations. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  19:27, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Article has a good update and we could use some good news. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:53, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, notable and also reminds past disputes to the readers. Egeymi (talk) 20:16, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Seems like a major diplomatic milestone, though relations have not been normalised, as Serbia still refuses to recognise Kosovo. Article looks ready if you consider the description of the whole negotiation process. --hydrox (talk) 20:49, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I've taken the liberty to edit the incorrectly worded blurb. --hydrox (talk) 20:55, 19 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Posted. --Bongwarrior (talk) 21:42, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] World's oldest man turns 116

 * Nom. First man ever to become 116. Seems notable in my eyes. --bender235 (talk) 15:10, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Encyclopedic content. Could also be mentioned in DYK. Regards,  theTigerKing  15:14, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Can the blurb be modified to say he is the first man to be verified as reaching the age of 116? Ryan Vesey 15:18, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. This is a little different than the "oldest person" stories that sometimes get nominated; this man is apparently documented as the longest-lived human ever.  That's notable. 331dot (talk) 15:20, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Kimura is the longest-lived man ever. Mme Jeanne Calment (122 years) was the longest lived human. LukeSurlt c 15:23, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks- just about to correct that. :) 331dot (talk) 15:24, 19 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Weak Oppose I like the idea of posting oldest-person stories, as TigerKing says they are quite encylopeadic. However I would prefer for postings at time of death rather than birthdays, as this a) notes the person's point of "maxiumum age" and b) discusses that there is a new title-holder. LukeSurlt c 15:21, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I would normally agree; but what is notable here is that he is the first man to hit 116. If other men hit 116, those don't need to be posted, but this is the first one. 331dot (talk) 15:26, 19 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose - We don't post birthdays for anyone else; and this is a highly gender-specific record. AlexTiefling (talk) 15:57, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "Gender-specific"? There are only two genders, aren't there? --bender235 (talk) 16:17, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That's a matter of some debate. But what I mean (as if this wasn't clear already) is that quite a few women have already had 116th birthdays. I'm not sure why possession of a Y-chromosome entitles this dude to special recognition. AlexTiefling (talk) 16:24, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't we post an accomplishment by a woman in a field dominated (for lack of a better word) by men? Like a woman landing on the moon, breaking the 10-second barrier, or playing in the NFL? --bender235 (talk) 16:37, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Growing old is not something from which men have ever been historically excluded. The relevance of 'first woman' (and occasional 'first man') records is to observe cultural change - not just senescence. AlexTiefling (talk) 16:50, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not like women have been excluded from running fast in the past, either, but still we would post it if a woman achieved something 83 men have done before her. Likewise, we should post when a man achieves something in which he is the first man to it, despite eight women reaching it before him. --bender235 (talk) 16:56, 19 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose this could set a precedent, we could have "world's oldest man" every few weeks in the future. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:02, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Are you aware of the fact that the next oldest man alive is almost three years younger? You do the math. --bender235 (talk) 16:17, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you'll find my comment remains accurate. As does my opposition.   But thanks for the invitation to do "the math" (whatever that is)! The Rambling Man (talk) 16:18, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, in fact you should give your statement a second thought. If this was to be a precendent, and Wikipedia would from now on post any of these kind of "milestones", what would that mean? Well, we'd post Kimura's 117th, 118th, and so on, birthday, which happens, well, not "every few weeks" but in fact once a year. If Kimura wasn't to reach this age, then we'd post some other man's 117th birthday. The next in line right now would be James Sisnett, who just turned 113. That—just to make it clear for you—would we might post his 117th birthday in 2017. So much for "every few weeks". --bender235 (talk) 16:26, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Second thought given. I said "every few weeks ... in the future" still accurate.  Still oppose, but thanks for the invitation to reassess.  At the most, we post his death at RD.  The Rambling Man (talk) 16:30, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Just for the fun of it: construct a future scenario in which we would post a man's first-to-reach-117th birthday, and a week later someone else's first-to-reach 118th birthday. I'd like to read how you imagine such a scenario, because it sounds literally incredible. --bender235 (talk) 16:34, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, you're right, I had assumed we'd moved to the "died at the age of" style approach for these super-cententarians (aka, I misread your birthday blurb!). Birthdays are not newsworthy. Try OTD?   The Rambling Man (talk) 16:38, 19 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Wait post final record when he dies. Thue (talk) 16:11, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The point of this isn't any "final record", but the fact that he reached the age of 116. Kimura already is the oldest man ever to live. --bender235 (talk) 16:18, 19 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose Methuselah was 969. Leaky  Caldron  16:21, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * According to one source, set down thousands of years after the events described. You might as well ask us to think of Rip van Winkle. AlexTiefling (talk) 16:28, 19 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose Post when he dies. Ryan Vesey 16:33, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Again: "oldest living man dies" is not the hook of this story, because that by definition happens all the time. It's "man reaches 116 yrs of age", a milestone that can only be reached once. --bender235 (talk) 16:40, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * And when the next man passes 116 and gets a day older and then dies, we'd post that right? Birthdays aren't ITN, try OTD?  The Rambling Man (talk) 16:43, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You're missing the point. "N dies at greatest age ever achieved by a man" might be newsworthy; it happens very rarely. As you rightly observe, no matter what age the current chap lives to, his successor would then have to live three more years at least even to be in the running. But "N marks a date on which they are the oldest man ever" happens as long as a man is alive who has lived longer than any other; so it will be true tomorrow, and the day after, and so on until this man eventually passes on. Birthdays are not magic, and this is not a news story. AlexTiefling (talk) 16:47, 19 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose and ban the entire topic till we get someone who surpasses Jeanne Calment. This is mere Guiness Record ticker-taping trivia and of absolutely no encyclopedic interest. μηδείς (talk) 16:38, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Banning any topic is a outrageous suggestion. Each topic should be weighed on its merits. 331dot (talk) 01:54, 20 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose per Medeis. Jeanne Calment holds the record for humans. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:47, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * She doesn't hold the record for men, however. 331dot (talk) 01:54, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I wonder how women would react if we'd elimate the gender separation for track records, and just list top 100-metre times "for humans"? Just ridiculous. --bender235 (talk) 06:28, 20 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose He has been alive for 42368 days, a totally arbitrary number. Tomorrow, he will have been alive for 42369 days. Kevin McE (talk) 17:02, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You are missing the point; the point is not his exact age, but the fact that he has lived longer than any other man in history. 331dot (talk) 01:54, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Which was proposed, and rejected, when he overtook the previous greatest age for a male. This is simply one number of days that he has reached that no other male has. Kevin McE (talk) 09:25, 20 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose. I have always found the "old person who did nothing except die of old age" stories quite useless and not encyclopedic. However, being the oldest verified person is a different story.  That being said, this is really just "really old person did nothing except celebrate his birthday", which is no better. Chances are high that he didn't break the "oldest verified person" record on his birthday, making the point of his turning 116 completely arbitrary. He will set a new record for oldest verified age tomorrow, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday...  I would support this individual when he dies, but not now. Resolute 17:03, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The point is not his exact age, which of course will keep increasing; the point is this man has reached a milestone that no other man in all of history has. 331dot (talk) 01:57, 20 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose. I am convinced by the arguments that this should either have been posted when he first became the oldest verified man (back in December) or on his death, when the new record will be fixed. I don't think the gender-specific nature of the record is a problem. Espresso Addict (talk) 17:45, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I nominated this story when he actually set the record for "oldest male ever" and it was shot down (still don't agree) so that we could wait for his death instead. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  19:25, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - its a shame we didn't post the record when it occurred. Given that, its hard to justify posting at a whole number age.  When he dies, however, I expect a full blurb, not some RD nonsense, since his record will be the story. --ThaddeusB (talk) 00:16, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * And BTW, women routinely live longer than men, just as men routinely run faster, jump higher, throw higher etc. The situation is very much analogous to a women's sports record. --ThaddeusB (talk) 00:18, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Overall, this has turned into an amazing display of stubbornness. The separation of sexes is accepted in athletics records without opposition, because it would be ridiculous to compare male and female sprint times, for instance. Yet, for age records, only "humans" seem to exist. This is beyond me. --bender235 (talk) 06:39, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Let's ignore the gender issue, then. What's so special about his 116th birthday, as opposed to any other date on which this gentleman has lived longer than any other? AlexTiefling (talk) 08:12, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The same reason why running the mile below 4:00 min was more important than running it below 4:13 min or 3:56 min. Or why rushing 2,000 yards in a season is more special than rushing 1,897 or 2,053. It is what people like to refer to as "milestone". --bender235 (talk) 08:36, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Boston Marathon bombings: Update

 * I agree we will need to update the blurb but I wonder if we should wait until this shakes out a little more before we do. 331dot (talk) 14:32, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support but Wait Wait for updates.~We should do the updation only when manhunt is over. The actual wordings would depend on its culmination. Regards,  theTigerKing  15:11, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support But I don't think we need to wait until this is over. We can update this with the shooting of the MIT cop, explosion in Watertown, death of a suspect, etc. We can then update it again once the manhunt is over. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:34, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support as per Muboshgu. We don't know when this situation will end, and in the mean time, we look outdated to readers. --  Zanimum (talk) 15:39, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Any reader worrying that we're outdated only needs to click through to the article to see that it is up to date. We don't need to post every development on ITN. We haven't added (and shouldn't add) the arrest for the Iraq bombings, don't add the manhunt for the Boston bombings. MChesterMC (talk) 15:53, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - This isn't a rolling news service. We don't need to provide these kinds of updates. AlexTiefling (talk) 16:03, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Wait agree with theTigerKing, this could go for a few days, the end result could be very different from where we are today. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:04, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, it could. But why would we maintain an outdated capsule of the events in the mean time? --  Zanimum (talk) 17:06, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment The blurb is not "outdated". It is an accurate reflection of the event on Monday, which is what the blurb was intended to highlight. If the death toll were wrong, okay, maybe it would be outdated. But we are not compelled to follow up with blow-by-blow updates of the aftermath. --  tariq abjotu  16:06, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support on the grounds that an entire city of millions of people is shut down. Otherwise I wouldn't support. Abductive  (reasoning) 16:19, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support a million people told to stay home is veeeery rare. Nergaal (talk) 16:26, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Per WP:NOTNEWS. We don't need to be posting real-time updates and, unlike the current blurb, this one will become outdated. That said, I am neutral on an alternate blurb referencing the death of one suspect and the fact that Boston was essentially put on lockdown. Ryan Vesey 16:37, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You're right we shouldn't be attempting to mimic an News ticker, but it is not unprecedented for us to update blurbs to reflect ongoing changes. The key is--does teh blurb reflect the updated content in the wikipedia article?--Johnsemlak (talk) 17:17, 19 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support a blurb highlighting the lockdown. That seems like a truly unusual and significant event. Teemu08 (talk) 17:10, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. This has become a major event in and of itself.  All public transit has been shut down in Boston, all or nearly all public and commercial transport in and out of Boston is shut down or severely limited.  The entire city is being told to stay home.  Door to door police searches.  This is clearly an ITN-worthy event.  I suggest a blurb that is not in present progressive tense; something like.  One suspect is slain while police continue to search for a second suspect of the Boston Marathon bombing..--Johnsemlak (talk) 17:15, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Wait. No need for a running commentary. We can update the blurb when it's over. Formerip (talk) 17:30, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - It would be silly to put the blast up on ITN without also posting its bloody resolution. Public transport and apparently much of the city shut down which is not something that has happened in recent memory. Blurb adjusted. Marcus Qwertyus (talk) 17:43, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support as soon as article has enough about manhunt - To those who say "we aren't a rolling news service" we update ITN postings all the time, especially when big cities are on lockdown due to a manhunt. gwickwire  talk editing 17:45, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think the wording of the blurb had a lot to do with it. Marcus Qwertyus' adjustment fixes that for me. Ryan Vesey 17:47, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * So, er, when did we last update an ITN posting for a big city on lockdown for a manhunt, if we do it all the time? AlexTiefling (talk) 17:48, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It was two different things. I was saying we update all the time. And this should be an easy decision to update, a major city in the US is on lockdown and a manhunt in progress.. gwickwire  talk editing 17:53, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think we've ever posted for an event that was "in progress". Formerip (talk) 18:15, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm sure we have. That said, generally news events don't extend long enough for us to update the article (significantly) before the event's over. --  Zanimum (talk) 18:25, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure we haven't. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  19:23, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think Hotel Inter-Continental Kabul was up during most of the attack and I'm sure many natural disasters have been posted in progress. Marcus Qwertyus (talk) 23:31, 20 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support Very significant event for the US and the city of Boston in particular. -- Ե րևանցի talk  18:59, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Wait or ticker. As noted we are not a 24h news service. If it pleases everyone and if it drags on longer, perhaps a ticker would be a good solution. But not a blurb. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  19:23, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose I personally feel that this is ultimately a sub-chapter of the (already posted) news story about the bombings. I completely agree that the way the manhunt is progressing is very unusual and possibly un-precendented in the USA but I think the fact that there is 24h news coverage on it is clouding people's judgement on the merit of it as a story in itself.  Afaik we've never commented on (for example) lockdown/roadblocks/searches after events anywhere after serious attacks have occurred and are often much more common.  In summary, unusual-ness doesn't necessary make it newsworthy for me. CaptRik (talk) 19:46, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment This is now the last item on the template. It shouldn't fall off, not with it being active. I do think we have enough with Boston being on lockdown for an update, and it should happen sooner than later. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:01, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Marking as ready as there seems to be some consensus to post.   Hot Stop     (Talk)   22:56, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm removing the tag. There's reports of another shootout in Watertown and possibly another body so we should probably wait before anything is posted.  FYI I'd support updating if both suspects are dead (and hopefully they are).   Hot Stop     (Talk)   23:01, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Was just coming to suggest this as there's definitely a shootout happening in Watertown again. --M ASEM (t) 23:15, 19 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose - we don't normally post later developments of a story. I realize the circumstances here are pretty unusual, but I seriously doubt the manhunt would by itself warrant posting (i.e. if the bombing wasn't already posted).  Thus, I don't agree that a new blurb is warranted. --ThaddeusB (talk) 00:14, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment The spacific proposed update seems no better than the original blurb, and manhunt was to be assumed. Opposition to an update as such is odd, we update blurbs all the time.  Something like "One suspect in the Boston Marathon bombing is killed in a shhotout, a second being sought" seems quite accurate, informative, and unobjectionable. μηδείς (talk) 00:17, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * News is reporting the second suspect is surrounded. μηδείς (talk) 00:31, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * BBC News is conflicted on this point (commentary says surrounded, ticker text says Breaking News: still at large) -- I think we should leave this until some clarity is reached. Espresso Addict (talk) 00:35, 20 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support when concluded. Currently we have one suspect dead and one cornered.  It will likely be over soon, at which point a new blurb can be written and the story bumped.  This is clearly a major story.  All major U.S. TV networks have pre-empted broadcasting much of the day.  It's been wall-to-wall coverage, so clearly this is not a normal ITN story.  But we should wait until it is over.  -- Jayron  32  00:42, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Police confirm he's in custody. I'd say that's a blurb. "first suspect dead, second in custody" – Muboshgu (talk) 00:46, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Updated Sufficient support, conclusion reached, update in article provided. I wish there were some way to note the shutdown across the Boston area in the blurb without making the blurb unwieldy, but I couldn't. So I just emphasized that the manhunt was across the area. --  tariq abjotu  01:10, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you.   Hot Stop     (Talk)   02:03, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Boston and environs were shutdown as thousands of officers perform a successful manhunt for the Boston bombing suspects. ? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:19, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If we're actively looking for a criticism, I would drop "across the Boston area" as obvious (if they were in Provence, we'd say so) but as it stands the blurb is unobjectionable. μηδείς (talk) 02:27, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I was just giving an idea to Tariqabjotu who wished there was a way to include the shutdown in, do whatever you want. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:48, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Arrest of Pervez Musharraf

 * Support. Arrest of a former head of state related to actions he took while President is notable. 331dot (talk) 13:11, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, as above. --  Zanimum (talk) 13:17, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong Support As per above. Regards,  theTigerKing  15:11, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support As above MChesterMC (talk) 15:56, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - In my opinion, arrests need to meet a very high standard of notability to get into ITN. General Musharraf meets that standard, as a former head of state wanted for actions taken in office. AlexTiefling (talk) 15:59, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Ready? The relevant section now contains all the pertinent details that have been reported as of the current time. We could wait a day for any developments, but the article is up-to-date with the current situation. LukeSurlt c 16:06, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted. <b style="color:navy;">NW</b> ( Talk ) 16:28, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Postmortem support &mdash; Very significant development, and in my opinion, good news. He should face justice for much more than just his dismissal of judges. Kurtis (talk) 22:35, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Storm Thorgerson for recent deaths

 * Support. I'm sure this qualifies under "top of his field". I also certainly heard of him before, which is strange. Regardless, this would make for a bit of variety on RD. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  03:52, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per Ericleb01  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 08:16, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support "the British graphic designer behind some of the most memorable album covers of all time" as the Guardian puts it.  Jheald (talk) 09:23, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per reasons given. 331dot (talk) 10:02, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, partially on the fact that 24 other Wikipedias have deemed him notable for readers in their own languages. That's pretty strong backing. I did refer to Grammy Award for Best Recording Package, and was temporarily questioning support, as he only has one nomination. I then realized he has six more noms as Hipgnosis. Apparently Hipgnosis designed the original paperback cover for The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. --  Zanimum (talk) 13:05, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak support. I thought about nominating this myself, but decided against. Although he's definitely significant enough in his field, our article on him is disappointingly short, and (for copyright reasons) includes none of his artwork. That's not going to help readers much. Still, it's enough to meet ITN's minimum criteria. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 13:16, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Since he has a single solo Grammy nomination, surely that image could be added to the article under fair use (highlighting the nomination to give a reason to choose it out of all the covers). Not too hot on the copyvio policy in this kind of case though, so will leave it for a more experienced editor. MChesterMC (talk) 14:00, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support as per above. OK article, looks ready. Could we justify adding one album cover to the article as fair use? LukeSurlt c 13:18, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posting. <b style="color:navy;">NW</b> ( Talk ) 14:18, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: I've added the cover of Dark Side of the Moon to the article, and included a fair use rationale on the file page. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 14:36, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support: Dont delay the posting. Regards,  theTigerKing  15:11, 19 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Pull This is absurd, the man's got no awards or recognition. Yes, I own half the albums he's listed as having designed covers for, but, unlike Roger Dean, the covers are well-know because the albums are well known--and different covers would have been well known if they were done differently by different graphic artists. μηδείς (talk) 16:46, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry but there's a clear consensus to post this. As you can see.  The Rambling Man (talk) 16:49, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Medeis, you can't just demand that things you don't like should be pulled. I'm not sure why you would believe otherwise. AlexTiefling (talk) 16:52, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Can you clarify your point? The item was posted, and since I am opposing it after it was posted I think it should be pulled.  Are you saying that pull votes amount to personal attacks? μηδείς (talk) 21:57, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I see seven supports and one weak support above your post, and no opposes. That's consensus. Your opposition, whether before or after posting, does not overrule that consensus. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:59, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I see 'pull' rather than 'oppose' as a claim that there's something sufficiently wrong with the posting that it really needs to be withdrawn. I don't see where I accused you of a personal attack; but it's clear you just accused me of one. Your claim that this nomination was 'absurd' is uncalled for. AlexTiefling (talk) 08:16, 20 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - Outstanding contributor to a widely-consumed format of modern art. Widely-reported death, obvious signficance. AlexTiefling (talk) 16:52, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support &mdash; Among other things, Pink Floyd's album covers are among the most iconic in music history, especially that of The Dark Side of the Moon. That alone makes Strom Thorgerson significant. Kurtis (talk) 22:54, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Explosion in West Texas
I'm just trying to get this started (which it inevitably will be in a while anyway), once we know more about number of injuries and/or deaths shouldn't be too hard to post, if I'm right :) gwickwire  talk editing 03:44, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Updated deaths per onair CNN and (when they get the sense to update their website as fast as their onair personalities)  gwickwire  talk editing 03:51, 18 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support? With the current stated number of 2 deaths, I'd call it a tragic incident, but not significant enough for posting; however, the 70 deaths reported here would make this a clear candidate.  If that larger number is true, my support is whole-hearted.  Clearly, a period of delay is needed for official counts to come out, or at least consensus to emerge around a number. Ryan Vesey 04:03, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm actually supportive regardless of the total death count at this point. Here, we are seeing 75 to 100 homes destroyed.  In a town of 2700, that is incredibly significant. Ryan Vesey 04:08, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * 70 is totally possible. I'm not sure I trust the colorado news source, but it's definitely possible from a analysis standpoint. gwickwire  talk editing 04:11, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Support, pending updates and other info as it becomes available... 76.73.188.252 (talk) 04:22, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support pending expansion The event is being picked up by all the major news websites, so once we have a decent article, coverage indicates this story is likely to have high interest and significance. -- Jayron  32  04:06, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - Not sure how to work it into blurb, but there is a 3 mile, 3,000 feet high exclusion zone around the plant (other than emergency personnel) at the time, if it merits being in the blurb. gwickwire  talk editing 04:14, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think the current blurb is fine. It's attention grabbing enough to get people to click the link.  We don't need a whole article contained in the blurb.  -- Jayron  32  04:19, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I actually think it might be useful to include the destruction in the blurb, i.e. explosion levels x buildings and leaves 7 injured and z dead. Ryan Vesey 04:22, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Go for it. You don't need my permission.  -- Jayron  32  04:24, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I've made a minor modification to the blurb to say 60-70 dead as per most sources, feel free to revert. It will probably change to something higher per the sources I'm reading. Ryan Vesey 04:21, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * One more minor modification to include the 80 buildings levelled. gwickwire  talk editing 04:27, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment. Seeing as it's nearly midnight in Texas right now, we shouldn't expect many numbers or much information for at least a few hours. As always, let's not get ahead of ourselves. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  04:44, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You can't expect many people to sleep when such a major tragedy strikes. YuMaNuMa Contrib 04:46, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The police refused to release any information until 06:00 that day. That's the point I was pushing; we're in no rush. But as shown below, no one cares about being prudent. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  16:18, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Posted. The article is in decent shape and the statistics are solid enough for a blurb. Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 05:02, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Is the death toll confirmed somewhere reliable? Nothing reliable I've seen so much as mentions deaths, only injuries. Espresso Addict (talk) 05:11, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I changed the blurb to "an unknown number" as there is some deaths but the death toll is far from confirmed, look at the news sources that states "up to a number". We don't add speculation to ITN. Secret account 05:13, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmm, it seems quite possible that the less reputable news sources are blindly reporting information. CNN still reports 2 while quoting the EMS coordinator as saying he feared it could rise to 60 or 70 . Ryan Vesey 05:15, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd say drop it down to "at least 2" because 2 are confirmed. As well as having multiple firemen "unaccounted for" in the explosion, and many other things. For now leave it as "at least 2" or something, seems prudent. gwickwire  talk editing 05:18, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No sure if anything has changed since but the CNN report was published an hour ago. YuMaNuMa Contrib 05:19, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Clearly it is "an unknown number of dead" as the 2 confirmed dead was in the early breaking news stories which considering the tragedy the news is conflicting. This would have been a clear pull situation under most under circumstances, but most of a American (or any non-third world country) town destroyed by presumably an industrial explosion, I think this is a given first in recorded history. Secret account 05:24, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * ,, all confirm 60 dead.  Ks0stm  (T•C•G•E) 05:20, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Nothing that says confirmed there. Secret account 05:24, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The point is, it is impossible to know the level of caution taken by those news organizations before posting. Two of them quote CBS, while one of them is CBS.  CBS updated 10 minutes before CNN's most recent update; however, CBS quotes the EMS coordinator with "confirming" 60 deaths while CNN quotes the same person with estimating a death count that could rise as high as 60 or 70.  Given what we know about news organizations and their lack of thought, the safest presumption is that CBS, and those quoting CBS, are not being as safe as they should be in their statements. Ryan Vesey 05:27, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Sometimes I really hate that journalists contradict each other like that. Ks0stm  (T•C•G•E) 05:34, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Change to blurb desired Can we actually change "levels" to "damages"? It appears that far fewer were actually leveled. Ryan Vesey 05:30, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. Personally I'd suggest pulling till the facts are straighter, but I'm off to bed, so I'll leave it to others' discretion. Espresso Addict (talk) 05:36, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Pulling as these stats are extremely conflicting, and if the number of dead is confirmed as 60+ by multiple sources such as the sheriff department or the state, we can repost, otherwise the information that is being updated seems like the blast was an unfortunate accident with some buildings damaged/destroyed but nothing catastrophic that warranties an exception. Secret account 05:40, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Idk..."hundreds injured" and 75+ buildings destroyed seems pretty significant in its own right, deaths or not. Ks0stm  (T•C•G•E) 05:45, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sources doesn't confirm 75+ buildings "destroyed", simply "damaged" which is quite vague. Don't get me wrong that is a huge number, and some buildings were obviously destroyed but again, not worth a IAR posting here. With the injured and dead, there is a unknown number of confirmed dead, but the injured as far as the news is describing is more like broken glass type injuries instead of catastrophic many people are critical. This would likely be put back anyways, but lets figure out the facts first to something semi-stable at least, like Espresso Addict stated. I'm off to bed as well. Secret account 05:51, 18 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support once the facts are better figured out, this is ITN worthy looking at the sources and the type of disaster it is. However, I haven't seen the major the news media so conflicted in reporting this disaster all kinds of numbers are been tossed up, which clearly fails stability and this isn't an urgent ITN posting such as a terrorist attack, an assassination of a highly prominent politician and so forth. This could wait. Secret account 05:58, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Strongest oppose Industrial accident, would not even get a nomination if it happened in any other country, but almost certainly will because it is in the US. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.20.56.56 (talk) 07:35, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Lol at the argument of US centrism. Ks0stm  (T•C•G•E) 07:44, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It was nominated because dozens of people died. A similar accident that occurred in Africa or South Asia was posted on ITN a couple of months ago, and I'm pretty sure that accident had a lower death toll. YuMaNuMa Contrib 07:46, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * There possibly is in some cases some US centricism here, but this is not one of those cases. If 70 people have died, as is being reported, then it's a major incident no matter where it happened. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 09:29, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Hey, if this happened in Northern Ireland, people would've edit conflicted for "ZOMG SUPPORT POST NOW" vote... – H T  D  11:32, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - industrial accident yes, but of the kind that would make headlines no matter where it happened.
 * Also proposed revised blurb - "A fertilizer plant explosion in West, Texas registers as a 2.1 magnitude seismic event, leaving several people dead and over 100 people injured." - Tenebris 09:15, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Revised revision - "A fertilizer plant explosion registers as a 2.1 magnitude seismic event, leaving dozens of people dead or missing and over 100 people injured." - Tenebris 09:19, 18 April 2013 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.254.157.188 (talk)


 * Support once the article is up to scratch - I would think that an incident of this scale should be posted whichever country it occurs in. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 09:29, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You must be new here. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  16:18, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Marking as ready - seems in good shape to me, 5-15 deaths, 2.5 magnitude earthquake equivalent (per Sky News), half a town destroyed seems more than significant. Requesting another set of eyes as this was previously pulled. Mjroots (talk) 10:18, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sneaky little American Hobbitsies, posting this when most of Europe was tucked up in their straw bedsies! Support major industrial accident.--85.210.102.71 (talk) 11:28, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted again. -- Jayron  32  13:02, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Neutral. As I mentioned in the Boston nomination, the only reason I supported it was because it was at a sporting event. To remain consistent with that (and the fact that nominations of this type are often shot down), ten confirmed deaths really isn't that notable. News organisations up here in Canada aren't dedicating nearly as much time to it as they did for Boston. Of course, the SAR isn't over yet... <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  16:18, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - This looks comparable to the Buncefield fire, but with fatalities as well as all the property damage we saw there. Industrial accidents on this scale are blessedly rare, and this has understandably made the news in many countries (certainly in the UK and Germany). AlexTiefling (talk) 19:16, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment From the article, there are 10 first responders (firefighters/medics) confirmed dead, so that should be the minimum number of deaths in the blurb. MChesterMC (talk) 08:55, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Same-sex marriage

 * Support You are correct about Argentina. Supporting on that precedent, and that a nation approving same-sex marriage is a big deal. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:26, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. France is also in the process of legalising it, the US is running it through their courts, in Germany it's going through the Bundestag, the UK is (AFAIK) voting on it... it's not a huge story anymore. Pinning a certain region into the blurb doesn't really help the matter. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  15:30, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * New Zealand is now the 13th nation to approve it. That's a small percentage of nations. It's still a big story. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:41, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * But that's exactly why we shouldn't post it. It's the 13th time this has occurred. It will be the 14th in France in a few weeks, and the 15th in the UK, and the 16th in Ireland in four months, and the 17th in Germany... <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  15:57, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Add Uruguay to that list. This is getting to be a lot of blurbs... <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  16:00, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see why that's a problem. Less than 10% of sovereign states recognize same-sex marriage, so it's newsworthy when another country approves it. There's no limit to posting similar newsworthy stories. Iran just had two earthquakes in a week and both deservingly got separate posts. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:55, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I understand your point, but from prior consensuses, we normally post firsts and not much else. If this gets posted, each and every following legalisation should be posted. Otherwise this is just a case of posting whatever suits us. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  17:07, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I understand your point as well, but I don't see a problem with posting every nation that legalizes it, or posting certain notable ones. The first in the region is I think sufficient, if we decide not to post every single one. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:18, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Why not? It's news and NZ is a significant Anglophone country we don't often post stories about. Don't see why we need to mention any ocean-continent type stuff. Just "New Zealand legalises same sex marriage" will do. Why does it need to be spun as a first? Formerip (talk) 15:48, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, this is a pretty major event in that part of the world. Definitely "In the News" material. Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:50, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * comment The verb in the blurb should be institute, not legalise. It was not previously a criminal act for which one could be prosecuted like drug possession. μηδείς (talk) 16:06, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support as first in region. According to Timeline of same-sex marriage, we seem to have missed Uruguay on 10 April, and there are several other bills in progress at the moment. Espresso Addict (talk) 16:15, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Technically Uruguay's bill doesn't come into law until it is signed by the president. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  16:22, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Mujivca would be the last not to sign a left-winged agenda item. I don't think the catholic country status holds much water after argentinaLihaas (talk) 16:25, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * My point is that it would be inaccurate to say that it's legal in Uruguay, because it isn't yet. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  16:27, 17 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support as it is first in the region. Ryan Vesey 16:24, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose' 13th is pushing it. <b style="color:#0645AD;">Brightgalrs</b> ( /braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/ )<sup style="color:#0645AD;">[1] 16:31, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Moot region. If it were the first time in Southern Hemisphere for example, then probably yes. Brandmeistertalk  17:15, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose What, do we have to post it every single time it gets legalized? Save the attempts for nominations for countries like germany, larger countries with more population. Then at least you can combat against things like 13th time it has happened.75.73.114.111 (talk) 18:00, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per Muboshgu.-- В и к и  T  18:41, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose first in the "region" is arbitrary synthesis. Neither a comparison with Hawaii (where it already exists) nor North Korea makes any sense. μηδείς (talk) 19:24, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not WP:SYNTH when a good RS puts it in their headline. Whether or not its arbitrary is another issue. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:46, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, significant whether or not it is the first time. I think each of such legalization should be given in ITN since it is very notable societal and cultural event. Egeymi (talk) 20:38, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. First in the region; still a minority position among nations, even if it is increasing. Homosexuality is still a crime in most places (and can be a death penalty offense in some, like Uganda) so this is still notable. 331dot (talk) 20:54, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - I agree with 75.73, I don't think we should be posting this every time it occurs and New Zealand isn't exactly a major world power. It was worthy of posting the first couple times it happened and will be worthy when it happens in Germany/UK, but not now. --ThaddeusB (talk) 21:25, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support (1) There is strong reader interest in the topic - it is a subject that arouses strong feelings on both sides; (2) whether you look at it at a landmark advance allowing a traditionally discriminated-against group to participate equally in an important social institution or as a redefinition of marriage contrary to thousands of years of tradition, nature and the moral law, it's important, so it seems to satisfy the significance criterion; (3) it's not happening that frequently - it would be a problem if it was happening weekly or monthly, but I think we can deal with a few a year - and the significance that I mentioned above is not changed by it happening elsewhere - it still has the same important effects and implications, whether for good or ill; (4) it's received lots of international coverage, many of the stories being in prominent positions in the world section (and even high up on the front page of BBC News):            Neljack (talk) 23:14, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You said it better than I did. I hope those opposing will consider your well-reasoned comment. Ryan Vesey 23:18, 17 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support! While we're on the subject, why not bring Uruguay (and maybe even France) into the blurb? One story; three continents! How non-centric is that? 79.75.84.89 (talk) 23:34, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Absolute nonsense. 5,200 hits as the one-day peak for an ITN nomination amounts to high interest among our editors, who are disproportionately gay white male college students.  What a silly claim high reader interest is.  Our readers couldn't care less. μηδείς (talk) 03:33, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Where exactly do you get your information on the sexuality of our editors from? Neljack (talk) 04:07, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Um, you've responded to the wrong comment. My support did not mention reader interest. 79.75.84.89 (talk) 06:54, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry about the indenting but the point is valid, 5200 hits is not exactly a landslide. μηδείς (talk) 21:13, 18 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support per Ryan Vesey. -- Khazar2 (talk) 05:17, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support &mdash; In my mind, it's a significant development when any country allows gay marriage. As a supporter of LGBT rights, I don't think I'm biased in saying this. By the way, I added the word "country" to the blurb, if that's OK with everyone else. Kurtis (talk) 05:38, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Marked as ready Neljack (talk) 06:02, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you'd be pushing it to say there's consensus at this point. There's still a decent amount of opposition.  Is the legalization of gay marriage something that could be put on ITN/R or is it not regular enough? Ryan Vesey 06:08, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * When I looked through to judge if there was consensus, I too expected to conclude that there wasn't, but it is now 11-6 in favour. That's almost 2/3rds, and items with similar margins are often posted. Obviously it's not just a matter of votes, but I'm confident our arguments are pretty strong too. I don't think regularity would be a problem in terms of putting it on ITN/R - there are other things e.g. involving space exploration that don't recur at set periods - but I'm not sure whether there'd be the support for it. I'd be open to it, but I suspect many editors would take the view that whether it should be posted would be quite dependent on the particular circumstances. Neljack (talk) 07:50, 18 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment Also, I've taken the liberty of changing the article linked to and highlighted in the blurb to Marriage (Definition of Marriage) Amendment Bill, which has a larger and better update. Neljack (talk) 08:01, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * According to Marriage (Definition of Marriage) Amendment Bill, the bill hasn't been passed yet, it's still a proposed law, so I don't think the link change is warranted. Brandmeistertalk  08:25, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It technically does not become law until it receives the Royal Assent, which is a formality since the Governor-General is required to assent by constitutional convention. I have edited the lede of the article to make clear that the bill has been passed by the House of Representatives and just awaits the Royal Assent. Neljack (talk) 09:00, 18 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Altblurb the "first in asian pacific region" statement is bizarre--Hawaii has same-sex marriage and it is culturally and physically closer to New Zealand than any part of mainland Asia. μηδείς (talk) 15:35, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Same-sex marriage is banned by state law in Hawaii, but I support altblurb as a compromise.-- В и к и  T  16:08, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * What!?!?! Ugh, last time I trust anything I find at google. μηδείς (talk) 21:02, 18 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose These stories have ceased to present any meaningful threshold. It is a minor, and no longer novel, change in internal legislation that is gradually rolling out across the world.  There is no merit in spotlighting every step in the journey. Kevin McE (talk) 19:51, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Don't see what the issue is. A major story from a major English-speaking country. The update is there, it's well-written and well-sourced, the article is in good shape. We the same legislation being passed in New York. The current list of stories being shown includes two sets of bomings, an explosion and an earthquake (that's four disaster stories) - let's get some diversity here. Osiris (talk) 20:26, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Just a comment that New Zealand has approximately 20% of the population of New York, and more recent events of legislation being passed in US states in November 2012 were not posted). [[User:Spencer| Spencer]T♦ C 20:44, 18 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose per Kevin McE; this is nothing truly new for a developed nation (if the nation that does this is in the Middle East, that's an entirely different story), and prior consensus (Denmark, Portugal) has been to not post an item.  Spencer T♦ C 20:44, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Denmark and Portugal were not the first in a [conservative[]] region. And neither was New  York the first in the countryLihaas (talk) 13:31, 19 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Although I oppose this nomination, I was about to insist it be posted based on 13 to 8 (over 61%) support. But as of this edit it is nowhere near updated.  I suggest those who support the nom do the work. μηδείς (talk) 23:00, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Don't gorget the nominator's support ))(which is implicit, otherwise it wouldn't be nominated). Theres clear consensus
 * And 5 sentences is more than many postings like the sports ones and thatcher (at first posting)Lihaas (talk) 13:26, 19 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support. It's been in the news. SSM is still not very common; any progress is still noteworthy. Anyway, we need something up there soonish.  Ignatz mice•talk 13:46, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: The passing of the bill in the legislature is already old news; if introduced it would already be near the bottom of the list, so it is unsuitable at this time. Could an argument be made as for the Royal Assent on April 19? -- King of &hearts;   &diams;   &clubs;  &spades; 05:17, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment. I've unboxed this discussion. Judging a story not recent enough is not a good reason to archive it. In principle, it can still be posted at any time up to when it is technically stale, and it's five days clear of that at the moment. Formerip (talk) 12:09, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Black Caviar retires

 * Support Good idea to get some Australian stories in here!68.101.71.187 (talk) 11:57, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but oppose. We don't post retirements of sportspeople, therefore we should not do it for sportshorses. Though in this case it is less likely that he will change his mind and start racing again. --Tone 12:20, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * More about the achievement than the retirement. No other horse in the 20th or 21st centuries has been undefeated over more than 20 starts, and even then, the majority of other undefeated horses raced in only one country. Huge impact on Australian culture—BBC article above notes her races would regularly attract 30,000 people where usually only 3,000 would attend. Article is in quite good shape, and updated. 124.148.212.42 (talk) 12:48, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's a retirement. Other than paperwork or something, nothing has actually happened. --12.41.124.5 (talk) 19:34, 17 April 2013 (UTC)


 * oppose I don't think this is a very significant news, also Tone has a good argument. digitalSurgeon (talk) 12:54, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose We don't post sports retirements of humans, so I don't see why we should of a horse. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:47, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose as per Mobushgu's argument. Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:51, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose announcement of retirement, but strongest support possible if the horse announces its intent to return. – H T  D  15:56, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry but we cover news items on the merit: we don't do nationalist quota filing. μηδείς (talk) 16:00, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose, Hope someone remembers that such a nomination for the retirement of Gabriel G. Marquez was not approved and posted. Egeymi (talk) 20:41, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Pile on oppose; we don't post retirements. When the horse dies, then RD is a possibility, but not now. If it was about the achievement, it should have been proposed when he set the record. 331dot (talk) 20:57, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Retirements of anyone except monarchs tend not to be notable. People (and animals) grow old, their careers end. Such is life. AlexTiefling (talk) 16:00, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] George Beverly Shea

 * I assume this is an RD nomination; support; nominated for 10 Grammys, won one plus a lifetime achievement Grammy; has other awards and is in a couple Halls of Fame. Seems to be notable in their field. 331dot (talk) 10:00, 18 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support for RD. Must admit I hadn't heard of him but he seems to be a leading light in this field, the awards 331dot highlights above show his significance. yorkshiresky (talk) 10:39, 18 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support for RD when updated (with reaction to death/legacy info). A lifetime achievement Grammy is more than enough to demonstrate being at the top of one's field. --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:40, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support for RD, just make sure it's updated with a couple of sentences... (don't let it "die on the vine" (copyright Meds 2013))... The Rambling Man (talk) 16:08, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Pat Summerall for recent deaths

 * Support pending better update iconic broadcaster, though a little more information (cause of death) would help if such information is public. -- Jayron  32  22:59, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support arguably the premier sportscaster of professional American football throughout its 93 year history, very iconic figure even if its slightly centric to a particular sport. Secret account 01:05, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Agree with the use of the word "iconic". – Muboshgu (talk) 01:17, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Clearly notable in the field of broadcasting. 331dot (talk) 01:17, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per Jayron32. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C • Sign AAPT) 01:24, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Skeptical I am not at all opposed to this, but I think the supports are on a lower standard than usual. If this is going to be posted we should definitely have posted El Raton who had his own documentary and video game.  Perhaps those supporting this nomination should first support lowering the bar overall--which it seems many think is set too high. μηδείς (talk) 01:43, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Summerall is (was?) human, Raton was a bull. I did support that nomination FWIW. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:51, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Medeis, but this is a ridiculous argument. I generally agree about the bar set for RD- especially considering how often we post 80-something TV actors- but a sportcaster from America and a bull from Spain have nothing to do with each other. -- Mike (Kicking222) 16:30, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Nothing except that the bull was more notable, his death covered internationally, and that he had a biography and a video game made about him. Let's see the international coverage of Summerall's death. μηδείς (talk) 03:09, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * While international coverage or international impact is one criteria, it is not the only one. 331dot (talk) 11:48, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * neutral the article is rated Start Class and while it may be better in fact, it's not great. While Summerall was a prominent broadcaster for a very very long time I'm not sure what else is notable about him.  I'd say John Madden is much more notable.--Johnsemlak (talk) 02:29, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I feel the two of them were about equal in the booth. Granted Madden has his own impact independent of Summerall... – Muboshgu (talk) 02:53, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - will need more than a one sentence update if it is going to be posted (reaction to his death/legacy material). Also a proper lead would be nice. --ThaddeusB (talk) 04:39, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Lead written. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:54, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * And a second sentence. Not sure how much else there is to say without getting quote cruft-y. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:01, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Scratch that, the death section is now four sentences. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:07, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I am now satisfied with the update quality. --ThaddeusB (talk) 21:29, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Neutral, Leaning Oppose I'm a fan of Summerall's work, and I don't question his importance in the realm of sportscasting (and I work in sports television, so it's not like I lack love and respect for the field), but is being the third- or fourth-best-known sportscaster in the US- keeping in mind that he wasn't even as well-known as the broadcast partner he had for the majority of his career- really worth a mention on RD? I'm not so sure. -- Mike (Kicking222) 16:30, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Nothing against Mr. Summerall, but I don't think this nomination rises to what I'd consider notable enough for RD notification, but then again I'm not an American football fan. 79.75.84.89 (talk) 23:43, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose, very old, known for doing his job. Abductive  (reasoning) 01:20, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Known for doing it better than anyone else, arguably. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:33, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That would be an argument against virtually all submissions for RD. What other reason are people supposed to use to nominate an article?  "Doing his job" is what he is notable for, because he did it well and was recognized for it. 331dot (talk) 02:36, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * For improving the human condition, not mentioning the new colors of jerseys. Abductive  (reasoning) 03:44, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * There is no RD requirement for nominated persons to have "improved the human condition", only to meet one of the three criteria; in this case, #2.(important in the field of broadcasting). 331dot (talk) 11:43, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You know what's amazing, 331dot? Even though I (basically) opposed this nomination, I like your support rationale infinitely more than I like the other oppose rationales. In this case: When a president dies, he is old and known for doing his job, but that doesn't mean his death isn't important; when Elizabeth Taylor died, she was not remembered for having improved the human condition, but that doesn't mean her death wasn't important. The deciding factor is importance, and I don't happen to think Mr. Summerall has enough to warrant a mention on the main page, but I at least tried to make that point rationally. -- Mike (Kicking222) 12:58, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per Jayron32's reasoning. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:31, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:42, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] 2013 Sistan and Baluchestan earthquake
A 7.8 magnitude earthquake strikes Iran. - Eugεn  S¡m¡on  (14) ®  11:17, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Wait While there are multiple news agencies reporting the quake occurred, so far none appear to have any information the impact (Any casualties or structural damage? How are people in the area being affected?) of the quake. --Allen3 talk 11:33, 16 April 2013 (UTC)


 * It seems likely that this will be notable enough to post, but without knowing the damage or casualties it's too soon to tell. --Bongwarrior (talk) 11:36, 16 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Wait but support once we've got enough information. An earthquake of this size in an inhabited area is (tragically) generally going to be big news. AlexTiefling (talk) 11:47, 16 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support once the article has enough basic details. BBC reporting 40+ deaths so far. CaptRik (talk) 12:38, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Wait changing my opinion, latest story has claims that nobody killed, 5 injured and it's out in the desert away from population centers. CaptRik (talk) 16:24, 16 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Wait USGS recently revised their epicentre depth estimates so the damage\casualty estimates are much less severe, also a small possibility that the bbc (and other media) are accidentally conflating reports from the previous quake - so wait until rescuers actually reach the scene (5 hours or so) EdwardLane (talk) 12:56, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support after update. The BBC radio reports that over 40 are dead and that electricity/communications are out. They also mention it being the strongest in Iran in the last 40 years.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  14:20, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It also seems logical that the other earthquake is either removed or merged with this one once it's up.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  14:22, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, huge impact. I think the previous earthquake blurb can be merged into this one such as like "...only days after a similar(?) earthquake in Iran". Mikael Häggström (talk) 15:00, 16 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support, but oppose merging the blurbs - the Bushehr earthquake is old news, it's unrelated, and it's due to drop off the bottom of the template in a day or two anyway. There's absolutely no harm in having two Iranian earthquakes on ITN for a little while. --Bongwarrior (talk) 15:13, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support and bump off the older blurb. Second in a week... <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  16:34, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree the older blurb should go. μηδείς (talk) 18:02, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted and removed older earthquake blurb. I have boldly put a more descriptive blurb in as well.  -- Jayron  32  21:22, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Multiple bombings in Iraq

 * Support Pending update of course. The information should either go in Iraqi governorate elections, 2013 or in an article devoted to the attacks.  I'll note that we would normally be more conservative in posting Iraqi terrorist attacks due to their frequency.  This is an exceptional attack though, the attacks are coordinated and occur in multiple cities and while the news sources listed above don't confirm that the attacks are directly related to the elections, they do mention the upcoming elections in relation to the attacks. Ryan Vesey 04:41, 16 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support, obviously notable given that Boston marathon (happily) with three dead is immediately posted. However, an article should be given. Egeymi (talk) 09:56, 16 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - This has been a big story, and the widespread casualties have attracted much attention. AlexTiefling (talk) 11:48, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support- per others- Eugεn  S¡m¡on  (14) ®  15:14, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Wide-ranging coordinated attacks like these are pretty rare, even in Iraq. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  16:37, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The Boston "bombing" has 2 deaths and we rush to post it in two hours. This has 31 and we sit on our hands. 'Merica.128.227.94.227 (talk) 20:33, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm a bit curious as to what you are complaining about. 15 hours after this was posted, you still hadn't created the article.  Finally, Eugene Simion did for you.  We still have an article with only one sentence.  Why don't you stop sitting on your hands and expand the article so the update is sufficient for it to be posted. Ryan Vesey 20:52, 16 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't suppose you have bothered to actually look at the condition of the article? If you are that anxious to see this posted, you could help make that possible by improving the article. It's not as easy as complaining, but it's much more effective (and almost as much fun). --Bongwarrior (talk) 21:03, 16 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support &mdash; It's disheartening that such incidents are so common in Iraq that we'd even have to "sit on our hands" in posting such an update, to quote 128.227.94.227 above. I wish it were like the U.S., where coordinated terrorist attacks are relatively uncommon and something like what happened in Boston would be notable enough for inclusion within such context. Kurtis (talk) 21:18, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Erm... have you looked at the article linked above? That's going nowhere near the front page. This has all the support it needs, but the article's not ready as it's not long enough. Nothing to do with being in Iraq (at this end at least) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:05, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * My support was for the blurb itself; it had no bearing on the article it's linked to. I haven't checked it yet, though. I will do so shortly. Kurtis (talk) 01:57, 17 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment - article is now fit for posting. If someone had done the work earlier, we could have avoid the latest addition of US-centric conspiracy nonsense. --ThaddeusB (talk) 00:39, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted Stephen 00:56, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Musallam Al-Barrak sentencing

 * Consider withdrawn. Clearly won't build consensus in time to make the main page at this point. I tried removing, but was reverted. -- Khazar2 (talk) 04:43, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Boston Marathon explosions

 * we need an article, but this seems kind of obvious.  Hot Stop     (Talk)   19:25, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Boston Marathon? – Muboshgu (talk) 19:25, 15 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Wait clearly we need to see what's happened, so far indication of a few injuries, nothing more. But of course, things can change.  Patience required here I think... The Rambling Man (talk) 19:31, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment There's an article brewing at Boston Marathon explosions, which is probably a better target for this information than the main Boston Marathon article. Currently, it says three people were killed, which seems to be corroborated by a couple sources right now. --  tariq abjotu  19:42, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Early reports are three deaths and 30ish injured. I'm assuming by the time the article is large enough for posting we'll have a more accurate death/injury count. Ryan Vesey 19:50, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not really seeing any RS with the three fatalities, a lot of injuries have been reliably reported though. Any RS for the deaths?  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:52, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I haven't been looking at internet sources. They've been reporting it on the television for the past 10 minutes.  They reported that it was confirmed by the police.  There's also some reports of other bombs being found around the city, but they're much less reliable  and not confirmed yet. Ryan Vesey 19:55, 15 April 2013
 * It's certainly a big deal, and has all the hallmarks of a terrorist attack, of course. But watching the live feed on the BBC, no mention of fatalities thankfully.  Let's hope it stays that way.  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:00, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * And reportedly: "explosions came from within the Fairmount Hotel"... what is that all about? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:54, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Regardless, the notability and significance of this should not be tied to if/how many people died. I don't know what your confusion about the location of the explosions stems from. --  tariq abjotu  19:56, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Firstly, I'm surprised at the number of people quick to comment on the number of deaths without any reliable sources. Secondly, did the hotel explode then?  I have no idea on the geography.  Sorry if you can't be helpful.  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:58, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * There's apparently a hotel next to or near the finish line and the explosions apparently came from within the building. That seemed easy enough to infer... --  tariq abjotu  20:01, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, so the hotel has been destroyed? Two explosions from the same hotel?  Perhaps, in that case, it's some kind of accident.  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:20, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * One from around the hotel, but the other was dozens of metres away. They're probably not accidents. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  22:10, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Technically the sporting event would have been ITN/R anyway. Obviously these explosions would mean making a sport-related posting seem completely wrong. Obviously post (when article is appropriate). --87.113.43.128 (talk) 20:05, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Was just about to say the same. The marathon is ITNR, but given the events, this is obviously the bigger story. Resolute 20:06, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose for now It really feels too soon to post anything - nobody has a solid clue what's happening, including us, so it seems premature to put anything up right now. I say we wait a few hours when the facts will be more clear. Redverton (talk) 20:08, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Explosion at a major sporting event. 2 dead, 23 injured. The circumstances make it worthy, and we have enough information to post. It's not like we need to wait for the "why". --Kitch (Talk : Contrib) 20:15, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * We have reports of 3 deaths, now reports of two deaths, the article reads three. We're an encyclopedia, not a news agency, we should wait to put this on the main page until some true consensus comes out of the official reports. Ryan Vesey 20:17, 15 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support There are deaths and almost two dozen injured at the finish line of a major marathon that has an international drawing. Let's call it like it is.--NortyNort (Holla) 20:15, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - We're not a news ticker and as such should not be susceptible to media sensationalism. We can wait until all the facts come in and notability is established.--WaltCip (talk) 20:16, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * People are dead at an important event, therefore notability is established. Nergaal (talk) 20:23, 15 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment Boston Marathon is ITN/R. I suggest a single blurb with two bold links - results and explosion. --ThaddeusB (talk) 20:21, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Agree with WaltCip here. We're not in a hurry. Let's wait until it is clear what happened there. --bender235 (talk) 20:22, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Still wait. Of course, kneejerk is to suggest some kind of act of terror, which is likely, but until we have some genuine evidence, wait.  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:24, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Abstain until conclusion of event, per Thaddeus's comment. — <span style="color:#666 !important;">TORTOISE  WRATH  20:24, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Wait until the basic facts are clear. The event might be sufficiently notable, but it's far too soon to link to our volatile article from the main page.  Let the news outlets report the news.  We can revisit the matter when we have a decent encyclopedia article to offer.  —David Levy 20:27, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I came here and was stunned this wasn't posted ... I realize that there's a desire to not be US-centric, but this is a pretty darned big event and the top news story of the day. --B (talk) 20:30, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * B, there's virtually unanimous support for posting this, it's a matter of not posting too early. See my comment below. Ryan Vesey 20:33, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * B, please read more of the comments above. No-one's opposed this on the basis of it being in the U.S., but more - like my own oppose - because we just don't really know what's going on yet. Redverton (talk) 20:34, 15 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment I've proposed an alternate blurb 2013 Boston Marathon needs to be created, it's currently a redirect. In addition, I can't comment more that this shouldn't be posted  within the next few hours.  There's currently reports about a fire in the JFK Library, but nobody knows if it is in anyway related.  We need to wait on posting these things and let the news sources do the speculation. Ryan Vesey 20:32, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Considering that the Boston Marathon in a regular year is something we post as ITN/R, a series of deaths and maimings at the finish line make this a no-brainer for the front page. -- Khazar2 (talk) 20:32, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support as soon as the article meets the three paragraph requirement. WP is not PERFET and this is obviously the top of the news. μηδείς (talk) 20:33, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Technically it has somewhere between three and six paragraphs already, depending on which edit conflicted version you see. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:37, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support ASAP, per definitive knowledge per sources that these were bombs, a third was disabled, etc. This is way over ITN worthy by itself now. gwickwire  talk editing 20:35, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Ready this is updated, a third bomb has been detonated, there's no need to solve this before we link it for our readers. μηδείς (talk) 20:38, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * A third bomb has been "neutralised". The Rambling Man (talk) 20:50, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Someone should write 2013 Boston Marathon before this is posted. Ryan Vesey 20:47, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Is that a joke!?!? μηδείς (talk) 21:14, 15 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Not restricted to the marathon, bomb also exploded at "JFK library" per news conference. Suggest changing the article/blurb accordingly. gwickwire  talk editing 20:54, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Give the source for that if you have it, I have only seen there's a fire. μηδείς (talk) 21:02, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * There is no source, it's a coincidence. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:07, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No, it's not. "Third blast later reported at JFK Library about 5 miles away, police say. Not clear whether that blast is connected to first two." Highly doubt that says "was just a coincidence", and even the library is saying now that there was an explosion there, which was most likely unrelated to the fire.  gwickwire  talk editing 21:25, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * False. The library director has been saying all along that the library fire has no connection to the marathon bombs. The police is "treating" them to be related but have not linked them. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  22:08, 15 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support, BUT don't mention casualties until the Boston authorities confirm them, which they have not done so far. Media is offering conflicting numbers, AP's being the most widespread but I've seen numbers up to 12. Another news conference at 23:00 UTC. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  21:05, 15 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support, there has already been a third incident at the JFK library, and two more bombs are reported. The FBI is treating it like a terrorist attack and the WH and other areas are on high alert.--Bellerophon5685 (talk) 21:05, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * There is no source for that, it's a coincidence. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:07, 15 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The library is already saying that the fire is unrelated. Not an explosion. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  21:08, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support when ready. This is obviously main page worthy. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C • Sign AAPT) 21:16, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - It seems inevitable to anyone watching the live coverage that this will be the largest story in large segments of the world. Shadowjams (talk) 21:21, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Even if we don't yet know who did it or why they did it, we know that they did it, and that's what's in the news. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:27, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment 2013 Boston Marathon meets minimum ITN standards. I will continue to work on it, but it can be posted now.  Please use a double bold blurb when this goes up. --ThaddeusB (talk) 21:35, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thoughts going out to anyone reading this from Boston. Formerip (talk) 23:01, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Image question do you guys think there is any chance of posting File:2013 Boston Marathon finish line explosion.png on the main page? It is really rare that an actual notable explosion is captured on camera. Nergaal (talk) 23:25, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, that is a fair use image, which cannot be used on the Main Page.  Spencer T♦ C 00:24, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Lol, so, this year, there was a car bomb that went off in Syria that killed 53 people and was not posted. A terrorist attack in india that killed 7 not posted. But then this is posted. I am starting to think the US centric stereotype is true.75.73.114.111 (talk) 23:47, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeed. What's all the hype and fuss about? More people died in Chicago last weekend than in this little race. Seems to be symptomatic of the American culture of violence.68.101.71.187 (talk) 23:53, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have the impression that terrorist attacks are quite rare in the U.S., as compared to bombings in Syria which is a war zone; this is sorta same reason shootings in the U.S. are quickly opposed (unless there are double-digit fatalities(?)), while shootings elsewhere easily get in. Dunno about the Indian bombing, but this suggests that terrorist attacks (that include bombings) in India are "quite" often (an average of 2 per year), as compared to War on Terror attacks in the US, which are quite rare. (indeed, most of the articles in the US navbox are plots, which are also snowball opposed, and the last were the 9/11 attacks?) For some reason it didn't include "homegrown" terrorists though... – H T  D  06:05, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I, for one, would have quickly opposed had it not been at one of the most prominent events in sports. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  00:23, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeed. The one thing that makes this notable is that not that it happened - it's a minor bombing on a global scale - but that it happened at the Boston Marathon. HiLo48 (talk) 05:00, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The thing that qualifies this event for inclusion here is threefold: 1) it is being covered extensively and prominently by news sources 2) there's a worthwhile Wikipedia article for us to point people to to read more and 3) Someone cared enough to create a discussion here so people could discuss the issue and promote it. Bias at Wikipedia and at ITN is a real problem.  While we have no control over #1, people who worry about bias in what we post at ITN have no one to blame but themselves if they don't improve articles and nominate them here if worthwhile.  Complaining that "it isn't worth it because they wouldn't get promoted anyways" is just sour grapes.  If you want to fix the bias, fix the bias by giving us topics to promote, don't simply fight against articles which completely and totally meet the standards of ITN merely because they cover regions of the world that ITN covers a lot.  If you want to fix the imbalance, do it by performing good work yourself, not taking down the good work of others.  -- Jayron  32  05:09, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd bet my hat that the next person to complain about US-Centric bias of ITN/the main page will not have taken part in the above discussion about the Iraqi bombings. I'm going to lose this bet because some smart aleck is going to leave a comment in the above discussion and then complain about the bias, just so I'm wrong. Ryan Vesey 05:14, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with both of you. [After Edit conflict] We should also be encouraging those who enthusiastically posted here and developed the article on the Boston bombings to also look at other equivalent incidents. There are plenty of Americans here to build the Boston article, but not many Iraqis to build a good article on the Iraq bombings on the same day. Both deserve attention, and I plea with those who rushed to build and promote the Boston article to help with other articles such as the Iraq one as well. We all have access to pretty much the same sources. (There. Do you win your bet Ryan? I didn't want your hat anyway.) HiLo48 (talk) 05:22, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Who opens their comments about a fatal explosion with 'LOL'? If there's a discussion to be had about 'US-centrism' on here, this isn't the place or the manner in which to have it. If you think there should be more news from around the world, post some! Vote on some! But if you just came here to mock Americans as their fellow-citizens lie bleeding, well, get lost. AlexTiefling (talk) 11:56, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * opposeIt is only important to some as it is in the U.S, but I would change to support if the iraq bombing and drone strike in Afghanistan are included, which is just as important is included. I would suggest that all tragedies, that affect a country should get automatic consideration. If not minor ones such as this should not be considered. Enlil Ninlil (talk) 08:12, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "all tragedies, that affect a country should get automatic consideration." W000t. I can earn a boatload of ITN credits for every random shooting in the U.S. There's one every month... or better yet, the latest Syrian bombings; there's like one in every week. – H T  D  08:41, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Each event should be weighed on its merits; every one is different and has different circumstances. 331dot (talk) 10:04, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This is not just some run of the mill minor event, this was a terror attack on an International event which resulted in worldwide effects. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 11:30, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Are you really trying to tell us that this isn't a major news story? AlexTiefling (talk) 11:56, 16 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support, for what it's worth. Obviously significant event. For what it's worth, I think this supersedes the race itself, but I'm not strongly opposed to posting that as well if people want to. AlexTiefling (talk) 11:56, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Question. Just to clarify; The Boston Marathon is ITNR.  Is this posting overriding/substituting for the posting of the normal results, or will that be a separate posting? 331dot (talk) 10:08, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Personally, I don't think a posting about the result of the race would be in good taste. I think IAR. But others may disagree. Formerip (talk) 11:50, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The results article is bold linked. I think that is sufficient to satisfy ITN/R; no need to list the winners in the blurb. --ThaddeusB (talk) 16:23, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with that. It's too bad for the winners, but they're understandably overshadowed. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:32, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Just to note that the Boston Marathon article is bolded in the blurb as well, the first time I can ever remember multiple articles being bolded in one blurb. I think, given that it's bolded, that this counts toward ITN/R (and if people want the race results they can click on the article?) Just my thoughts.  Spencer T♦ C 18:21, 16 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Blurb update The death toll seems to be settled at 3. Please remove "at least" from the blurb. The article is no longer carrying "at least" in it's lead. --IP98 (talk) 17:10, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. BencherliteTalk 18:46, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Venezuelan presidential election, 2013

 * Support Do we mention the percentages? Maduro's 50.6 and Henrique Capriles Radonski's 49.1?  On another note, the blurb should mention Capriles. Ryan Vesey 04:50, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The ITN for the October election and the US election one didn't list percentages. But then again, those were landslide victories, not razor-thin margins like this one. —Bloom6132 (talk) 05:13, 15 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Why are we linking to a 2012 Japanese election for this? -- Jayron  32  05:03, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oops. Sorry.  I took the template off that ITN article. —Bloom6132 (talk) 05:08, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Note – I'm currently in the process of updating the article with all the new articles that are coming out. Your patience is much appreciated. —Bloom6132 (talk) 05:24, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posting. I'll post the alternative one, as it is more informative. --Tone 08:48, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * CommentThat was fast... oh, and support because its an important change of power.75.73.114.111 (talk) 14:42, 15 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Image available --hydrox (talk) 16:29, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Change Blurb It was not a snap election - which (according to us) "Generally it refers to an election ... called when not required (either by law or convention)", the election was required by law.  LGA <sub style="color:#8B0000;">talk <sup style="margin-left:-4ex"> edits   20:49, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree. This wasn't a snap election. Formerip (talk) 10:01, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thirded. Can we get 'Snap election' removed, please? AlexTiefling (talk) 11:57, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. --Tone 12:31, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Sir Colin Davis for recent deaths

 * Comment Hopefully no one would give a "one of several hundred men worldwide doesn't serve as an automatic qualifier for RD" argument on this British guy... – H T  D  04:10, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Along those lines: Oppose we post too many British people see how stupid that sort of reasoning is? Please stop applying it to Americans. --ThaddeusB (talk) 04:36, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support when updated - Like Tallchief, Davis appears to be a highly notable artist in his field and thus meets the RD criteria. Is Davis the best conductor in history?  Probably not, but that should not be the standard. --ThaddeusB (talk) 04:36, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support One of the great Mozart interpreters and perhaps the greatest of all Berlioz conductors. Many acclaimed recordings, and received many honours not only in Britain but also from other countries. Undoubtedly one of the leading conductors of our time. Neljack (talk) 06:06, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support One of the big names in classical/orchestral music. 79.75.90.245 (talk) 06:20, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, very notable in his field. Rob (talk) 07:12, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support and now updated. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:38, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. As Neljack writes, one of the prominent conductors of his time. Espresso Addict (talk) 16:56, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong support, a leading figure in 20th century British music. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:11, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted --  tariq abjotu  21:34, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] The Masters

 * Support major tournament, but reword blurb. "professional" seems unnecessary and some amateurs participate, Adam Scott is a disambiguation page, and we usually pipe the year. I have suggested an alternative blurb. He is the first Australian winner but I don't think we should include that. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:01, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support —&#91; Alan  M  1 (talk) &#93;— 02:20, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Alt Blurb in the form of "In golf, ...". Once it gets updated, of course. I'll try to get it up to par later in the day tomorrow if no one else has by then. --  Anc516  (Champs!) (Talk ▪ Contribs) 04:26, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Alt Blurb and I agree with Anc516 that it should say "In golf, ...". Ryan Vesey 04:29, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll note that this is dependent on the quality, the article is so far away from having adequate quality right now, I'd be surprised if it can reach an appropriate level of quality for posting. Ryan Vesey 04:32, 15 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose Currently the article has very little prose and is just a glorified list of tables of who made the cut for each round. Needs expanding first before this is on the front page.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 07:02, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with Lugnuts. The current state has a three sentence paragraph describing the final round.  That's not enough.--Johnsemlak (talk) 15:05, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well I've made an update to meet the minimum requirements (I think) but I agree that an article of this nature could use some more prose. However, I'd support it for ITN so we could get more eyes on it and more interest in updating it.  The Rambling Man (talk) 16:24, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Seems fine to me, now. We would probably want the first round to have a bit of prose, but in general the article is good enough. Marking ready. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  22:14, 15 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Posted -- Jayron  32  00:31, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Evidence of chemical weapons usage in Syria

 * Oppose There just isn't enough information. They have no idea what kind of chemical weapons were used, who used them, and to what extent they were used. Ryan Vesey 02:13, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. No doubt that, if this is credible enough, there will be worldwide action very soon. Let's wait for that instead. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  03:08, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose until more info is available. "Chemical weapon" is a very broad term that includes even tear gas (although the researchers have ruled that out), and it seems some reports suggest it was a "strong riot-control agent" according to this and this. We need to know the nature of the weapon and the amount of damage caused to determine if this really should go on ITN. Chamal T •C 03:12, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I actually think the damage done is irrelevant in this case. If we're talking something along the lines of Agent 15, Sarin, or anything to that effect, it's a game changer for the conflict regardless of how many casualties it caused. Kurtis (talk) 03:40, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, you're right. If it's something like Sarin, then I agree that even the fact of using an agent like that would be significant. Chamal T •C 04:07, 14 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose per reasons given; Coverage of this seems to be limited outside the Israeli press, which suggests it isn't widely regarded as a significant development in the conflict. 331dot (talk) 14:59, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Nepal-Papua New Guinea relations

 * Oppose apart from the lack of an article to link, it is hard to envisage this happy event having much impact on life in either country, yet alone the rest of the world. Kevin McE (talk) 18:58, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Is there any particular reason why these two countries linking up is notable (past tensions for example)? If not it's hard to see any significance here, especially when the nominated article doesn't even exist. --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:59, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong Oppose The two nations haven't had any people to people relation/contact in the past. Hardly any economic activity between the two nations.Establishment of diplomatic relations alone can't be ITN worthy. Regards,  theTigerKing  19:23, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Per the others and WP:WTAF. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:46, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose per reasons given. 331dot (talk) 20:09, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment, link to the article fixed now. --Soman (talk) 01:58, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Representatives of two countries which have almost nothing to do with one another holding a meeting isn't news. I really doubt that this is notable enough to sustain an article. Nick-D (talk) 05:03, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Maria Tallchief for recent deaths

 * Support pending update Articles in pretty good shape, seems like a major person in her field. Good enough for me.  The article would need to be updated with any information we have on her death, but that's an easy fix.  That NYT obit cited above is a fantastic source, BTW, and would make for good fodder to expand our article further.  -- Jayron  32  04:51, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support subject to update I had some doubts at first, since I don't think we should post all prima ballerinas, but after reading the NYT obituary she seems to have been very highly thought of - among the leading ballerinas in the US. Neljack (talk) 10:12, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose per many different reasons. The fact a person is a prima ballerina and thereby one of several hundred women worldwide doesn't serve as an automatic qualifier for RD. There are prima ballerinas in almost every country in the world, but it doesn't mean we should consider the death of each of them for inclusion. We can make some exceptions if the person is one out of the top 5-10 most famous (of course, there are sub-groups among the prima ballerinas), but Tallchief was definitely far behind her contemporaries such like Plisetskaya, Fonteyn, and Sutherland. Provided the precedent that three years ago we didn't post the death of Marina Semyonova, there shouldn't be even a chance for this one to pass through the process. Claiming her significance because she was the first native American to become prima ballerina doesn't hold, as Wikipedia is not a place to reveal the domestic problems of the United States. If you live in a country that is strongly affected by discrimination of any sort, many other users simply don't care about it and would prefer to seek notability from many other sources. (However, in spite of my vote against this one, her performance in "The Nutcracker" was pretty good.)--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 12:58, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you misunderstand. She was not one of a couple hundred current prima ballerinas, but rather ever in the history of ballet... In any case, two wrongs don't make a right so arguing against this item based on a previous slight (from before RD existed - the purpose of RD is in theory to allow less famous, but still noteworthy individuals to be posted) should be a non-starter. --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:23, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Even better if you thought one of the greatest in history, so then I can mention names from different times such as Pavlova, Ulanova, Vaganova, Zakharova and many others. You can change the meaning of your words however you want, but you cannot prove that Tallchief was top-class of her generation and no way one of the greatest of all time. As for the introduction of RD in the bottom of the box, it has never been supposed to lessen the criteria for inclusion but to provide more room for non-death items to get posted on the main page.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 17:49, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * My point is that a rank given only to say 200 people ever is strong evidence of being at the top of her field. I don't know where this "top 5" idea comes from, but that standard is way too high...  You are wrong about RD - many people cited that it would make more room for borderline cases which typically caused controversy (either for being posted or not posted) before its advent. --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:57, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Now you have a very good reasoning with pretty strong argument, but in each category there is always someone who is famous and someone who is more famous. My point is not that there is no place for her among the greatest, let's say 200 of her generation or 500 of all time, but there are many others that received much more recognition during their careers. If you think that one of the greatest 200 is enough to qualify, then we should consider numerous other living prima ballerinas from that group as potential candidates in the future. By drawing the line so low for other familiar professions, we can easily get to more than 10,000 persons that qualify for RD in any time, which will make the whole process of posting deaths pointless.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 18:13, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * There probably are roughly 10,000 living people who are worthy of being posted when they die. If they have on average 40 years of life remaining, that is 250 a year, or only slightly more than we post now. From experience, a fair percentage of eligible people won't get nominated and/or updated.  Taking that into account, top 10,000 is actually pretty close to the current standard. --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:23, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, but my point was "familiar" professions meaning people that work in any field of arts (e.g. dancers, actors, directors, musicians, painters, writers, comics authors etc.) and excluding other professions such like sportspeople, businessmen, scientists, politicians, and many others. Since most of the deaths we consider are those of politicians, then the inclusion of these professions will likely raise the number up to 50,000 or even more.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 18:34, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. I don't know much about the subject area, but why should I not take this quote from the NYT obit at face value: “With English ballet, it was Fonteyn. For American ballet, it was Tallchief. She was grand in the grandest way.”? Formerip (talk) 13:21, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's quite common to see that even the major media exaggerate the things when someone dies. Tallchief is indisputably great for American ballet, but still not on the level of Martha Graham or Agnes de Mille. Given the fact that the American ballet is still behind Russian or English and even if we concur on her greatness as expressed in her obituary published by New York Times it's not that relevant as it might look.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 14:14, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Underrepresented artist. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:10, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose. It would be another example of the outrageous US centrism of ITN discussed recently. Internationally, this artist seems to be very obscure relatively speaking and nowhere near the exceptional fame required for ITN (hardly anyone who is not a head of state or government is posted, that is, if they are not the from US). Mocctur (talk) 15:38, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If insufficient non-US people are featured, the correct course is to nominate more such people, not leave deserving US people off to achieve false balance. (And no we haven't been voting down deserving non-Americans, they simply have not been nominated, or in a few cases got support but no updating occurred.) Furthermore, "exceptional fame" is not part of the ITN/RD criteria - being at the top of one's field is. If fame was the requirement, then no one out of a few select areas that regularly produce fame would be posted.  (For example, 90+% of Noble Prize winners are far from "exceptionally famous." --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:23, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * ) &mdash; <span style="color:#666 !important;">TORTOISE  WRATH  17:55, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * P.S. "The recent discussion" you refer to consists of you asserting US-centric bias, several people doubting your conclusion and asking for evidence, and you failing to provide even a single shred of evidence to back your claim. --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:23, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Anyone who opposes something for being US-centricism should have their vote removed and should be blocked until the discussion is over. It's a ridiculous rationale, and the solution is to support proposals related to other countries, not to oppose proposals related to the United States. Ryan Vesey 19:31, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose per Simeonovski and Mocctur. Not nearly prestigious enough for an ITN. &mdash; <span style="color:#666 !important;">TORTOISE  WRATH  15:47, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * We just posted a guy most notable for stepping out of a giant space egg on TV 30 years ago... Formerip (talk) 15:55, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately yes, but the battle against the subjective nominations (in this case US-centric) is long and we should not succumb so easy when at least we have the right to express our opinions. My vote will never be affected by what the majority thinks about the topic even if it appears to be futile and deeply lost in the "voting machine" run by the other users. Wikipedia is not a democracy only on the page of the rule; in practice, counting votes still prevails in most of such cases. --Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 16:10, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose first full-blooded X to be Z is synthesis and not a precedent we need to set. Unless there's evdence of her being an influential or the top prima ballerina the criteria are not met. μηδείς (talk) 18:02, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * On Wikipedia synthesis refers to a type of original research that attempts to make the user draw a conclusion by combining facts that may or may not actually be related. I assume that is not what you are referring to...  A prima ballerina is by definition a top ballerina (0.001%).  There is no such requirement as being the single most important person in one's field ever. --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:23, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The judgment that she is somehow more important because of the juxtaposition of the two facts is indeed editorial synthesis in regard to notability. As I said, if there is evidence she were a top prima ballerina it should be given.  The mere fact that she is a prima ballerina is obviously not weighty enough.  There are plenty of dancers the public knows by name like Mikhail Baryshnikov and Joel Grey who will merit ITN/RD.  But this nomination doesn't, and her race certainly doesn't push her over the threshold. μηδείς (talk) 19:50, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * My argument is not based on her race. I mentioned it because that's how most of the obits start, so if its someone's judgement it's that of the newspaper editors, not mine.  That said, I probably erred in even mentioning it.  See list of evidence of clear importance below, for example. --ThaddeusB (talk) 20:29, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Strong support Per nom and NYT obituary. The opposes are entirely unconvincing. Ryan Vesey 18:11, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Obituaries are not good evidence, except in so far as they collate objective information saving us having to find many sources. In terms of anything subjective, they are not reliable as they nearly always have the NPOV purpose of presenting the deceased in the best possible light.  Kevin McE (talk) 18:19, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * But the NYT suggests that she was the American Fonteyn, which would put her in the premier league of all-time ballerinas. I get the idea that something written in an obituary might be somewhat exaggerated. But can it be really so exaggerated that it turns out in reality that she's just a very good but run-of-the-mill professional dancer? Formerip (talk) 18:25, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment: There have been more than a dozen biographies of Tallchief, including multiple children's books, and she was the subject of at least one documentary .  How many people can claim that?  In the 1950-60s she appeared on numerous TV programs .  She is in the Women's Hall of Fame; she got a Kennedy Center Honor for lifetime achievement; she had a day named after her in Oklahoma; she won a National Medal of Honor; and so on. Sure seems like she was pretty damn important/influential to me. --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:51, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Simeonovski and Mocctur. Supporting arguments are very weak. NYT commentary can't help make a candidate RD worthy. Regards,  theTigerKing  19:28, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If we aren't to trust the judgements of NYT (and numerous collaborating evidence), then whose judgement should we trust? The completely unreliable "I've heard of her/I haven't heard of her"? --ThaddeusB (talk) 20:29, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. The fact that this person was Native American is not the entire basis for the nomination; she achieved a high "rank" (so to speak) in her profession that very few people get, making her notable in her field.  A person's obit being published in the NYT is one indication of notability, if it is due to their career.  Claims of US-centrism should be dealt with by nominating and supporting non-US people and subjects for inclusion, such as the Indian film prize discussed below. 331dot (talk) 20:23, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Not enough coverage to merit being listed as an RD.   Hot Stop     (Talk)   14:40, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Wide coverage is not a requirement; only that it meet one of the three criteria; in this case she meets #2. 331dot (talk) 14:55, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I would argue that because she didn't achive the highest rank in her field, Prima ballerina assoluta, she doesn't qualify.  Hot Stop     (Talk)   15:04, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, but as I understand it the rank she achieved is the second highest one, and even that only has a limited number of holders. It would be like saying a Vice President of the United States or even a Senator shouldn't be listed in RD because they didn't get to the top rank of their field.  (POTUS). 331dot (talk) 15:13, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * They'd still qualify as a high-ranking office (criteria 1) or possibly major impact (criteria 3).   Hot Stop     (Talk)   15:19, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * My overall point is that you don't have to be at the absolute top of your field to be notable; the criteria states "a very important figure"; holding a rank held by less than a few hundred people throughout the history of the field makes her "very important", even if she didn't reach the top. Certainly you are free to judge that as less important; I simply wished to clarify my comment. 331dot (talk) 15:25, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The prima ballerina assoluta article notes that the rank is not conferred in the US, so she reached the highest rank that she could. Neljack (talk) 22:39, 14 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Strong Support The article is well-updated as of this edit, and she seems notable enough regardless of race, founding dancer with George Balanchine's New York City Ballet, high praise from NYT, Kennedy Center and National Arts award, see death and legacy section, so I am changing my vote. μηδείς (talk) 16:55, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Her Kennedy Center Honor is enough evidence for me to support this nomination. I'm not concerned at what number she's ranked in the list of all-time greats. 79.75.90.245 (talk) 20:25, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Marking ready There's better than 61 to 39 support for this; complaints of US centrism are weak since (1) No one simply nominated her because she as an American, and (2) her death's been covered in The Telegraph, Der Standard, Le Figaro, etc.; and the article has been updated quite enough to show her notability on the merits alone. μηδείς (talk) 21:03, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment I'm open to being convinced that she was not sufficiently outstanding, but those saying she wasn't among the greatest have provided no evidence or sources for their claims. Not being an expert in the area, I can only go on the evidence I've seen, and from the NYT obit and the other sources I've seen she seems to qualify. Neljack (talk) 22:44, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - I have put a lot of work into the article. Per ITN guidelines "qualities in one area [update] can make up for deficiencies in another [importance]".  I would like to think the update is now of exceptional quality and thus can aid in the case for posting. --ThaddeusB (talk) 04:43, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with that. I would not have switched from opposing this as unproven to supporting it as well proven except for the work done by Thaddeus.  It takes a real stretch to read the article as it stands and still vote oppose at this point. μηδείς (talk) 05:14, 15 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Posted --  tariq abjotu  05:57, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Jonathan Winters for recent deaths

 * Support, clearly influential in the field of comedy.--85.211.113.141 (talk) 19:27, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support RD Influential and received the Mark Twain Prize, the highest award for comedy. Teemu08 (talk) 21:20, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support I hadn't heard of him, but the New York Times saw it fit to send me an alert, so that's enough significance in my book. Ryan Vesey 21:26, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support RD under WP:ITND#2. --hydrox (talk) 22:07, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support RD Long career as comedian. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:35, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Needs more thorough update - consists of only 1 sentence at current. --ThaddeusB (talk) 22:44, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Why? The only thing that is new is the fact that he is dead. That would be the case even if we reproduced some of the obit comments that have/will be made.  Kevin McE (talk) 22:48, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * RD isn't like the rest of ITN, it's our obituaries section. It's something an encyclopaedia is very good at - in a morbid sense, every BLP is an obituary in progress. A death by natural causes, all that is in the news at the moment about Winters are obituaries which discuss his life much more than his death. Winters was an noteworthy individual, however death is one of the most ordinary things a person can do, and demanding a significant amount of text regarding this ordinary death would be undue weight to one of the least unexceptional part of his life. --LukeSurlt c 23:17, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * (I wrote about this at greater length a few months back) --LukeSurlt c 23:24, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Why? - because the consensus-based ITN requirements state that an item receive a significant edit to be posted. If you think that RDs should be exempt form such requirements, then I suggest you propose a change to the policy (like Luke's proposal in December 2012 that failed to gain consensus.) --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:17, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The only requirement is that the update is sufficient. Does our article omit some fact about his death?  -- Jayron  32  04:33, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, it omits the reaction his death caused (in particular among those in his field). Again, if you want to see the rules changed, feel free to make a proposal, but arguing that the article is ready when long standing ITN practice says it is not is a waste of time. --ThaddeusB (talk) 04:39, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That is not a current requirement listed at WP:ITN/DC. Start a discussion somewhere and advertise it well if you think we need that.  Currently, ITN/DC states "the article must have a prose update about the person's death  (in accordance with ITN updating criteria)"  In the news also makes no requirement that we include the random hagiography that pops up whenever a celebrity dies.  The current update sufficiently notes that he did, in fact, die.  -- Jayron  32  04:56, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * And a one sentence update is "highly questionable," while "updates that convey little or no relevant information beyond what is stated in the ITN blurb" [i.e that he died] "are insufficient" as per those updating criteria referenced in the parentheses. That a normal size (~one paragraph) update is necessary for RDs was explicit until a user unilaterally removed it (see this discussion).  As evidenced by the link given by Luke above there is in fact NOT consensus to move away from the normal requirements in cases of RDs.  As it stands, if all there is to say about the death is that it occurred than it is not a significant enough event for ITN posting. Maybe RD shouldn't be that way, but since its inception it has been treated as needing a thorough update, just like a regular blurb.  If you want that to change, arguing with me here isn't the way to do it. --ThaddeusB (talk) 05:10, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The issues we need to consider are a) Is Jonathan Winter's death something someone is likely to read about or hear about in news sources? b) Are we proud enough of our article to direct them to it in case they want to learn more about the subject.  I'd say we're fine on both counts: Jonathan Winter's death is something that's actively in the news right now, and I'm not terribly embarrassed by the current state of the Wikipedia article.  For that reason, I have no personal qualms putting it on the main page in some fashion.  -- Jayron  32  05:19, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support RD He was big in his day (the 60s to the 80s).79.75.87.76 (talk) 23:29, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Needs Update Whoever keeps marking these nominations updated needs to cut the crap. The death section says he died, and he was survived, which might as well be one sentence.  A bunch of random and unreferenced material (unless you count IMDB) was added, but certainly no sufficient update.  Given the pages long obit I read today an actual update should be very easy if anyone cares. μηδείς (talk) 00:13, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm confused. If your demanded update doesn't have to be to the death section, why require it at all? Yes the biography should meet minimum standards, but it's quite possible the biography already met that standard at the point of his death. Some updating of articles of recently deceased persons is required, i.e. at least verb tenses and mentioning the essential details of the death, but not an arbitrary volume as a technical hoop to jump through to merit a main page posting. LukeSurlt c 01:11, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support. Of course! There wouldn't have been either an R.E.M. or Andy Kaufman without him. R.I.P. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:12, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Another example of US centrism that we don't need. We should apply the same standard as we apply to non-Americans. Mocctur (talk) 15:42, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted. --Bongwarrior (talk) 15:46, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Dadasaheb Phalke Award

 * Has potential Seems to be a lifetime contribution award for services to film by Indian government: prize is million rupees (about £12,000). I don't think we routinely mark Bollywood.  Neutral, but open to persuasion if award is well regarded.  Kevin McE (talk) 13:00, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It is, as you say, considered as the top most award of the Indian film industry given by the Government of India. The award is given along with National Film Awards. The uniquiness of these awards is that it considers films made not just in Bollywood but also all regional cinemas. (This is my first nom at ITN. So please feel free to point out when my pitching turns into boasting.) §§ Dharmadhyaksha §§ {T/C} 13:09, 12 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Note It has been announced that he will win it, but he won't be awarded it until the 60th National Film Awards on 3 May. --LukeSurlt c 13:16, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thats right! But i nominated it now because i remember last year when someone nominated this blurb after the award was physically presented, the news was actually stale and hence was not promoted. We can change the phrasing. §§ Dharmadhyaksha §§ {T/C} 13:24, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, I've changed the blurb. I'm quite happy to Support, seems to be making waves in India and it's nice to have some culture in ITN. LukeSurlt c 13:30, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The Career section in the article is however a bit of a mess. It's a big block of text, poorly referenced and formatted and the level of English is low. Working on this would be very useful. --LukeSurlt c 13:42, 12 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I think this is postable, but it would make sense to wait until the award is officially in his hands. The issue of it being stale will be prevented by making sure the article is in good shape on May 3 and that it gets updated. Formerip (talk) 13:44, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * How about this:
 * We establish ITN community support notability-wise now for a main-page posting on 3 May.
 * There is then a few weeks to bring the article up to scratch.
 * We let Pran page watchers, and maybe associated Wikiprojects, know about this potential for a main-page posting. Thus should hopefully be a good motivator to improve the article (i.e. everyone wins).
 * --LukeSurlt c 13:50, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, we do post Nobel prize winners as soon as they are announced (they get the award some time later). Support in principle, if the article gets some work. --Tone 14:04, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Fair point, but I'm gonna say that Nobel Prizes are a special case, because interest is traditionally in the announcement rather than the ceremony, and that's not the case here. But we could also do with a nice story or two, so I won't cry about it if I'm in the minority on this one. Formerip (talk) 14:11, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Let me be straightforward here. May 3 is being targetted by TFA, DYK and OTD. On May 3, 1913, India's first feature film Raja Harishchandra was released and this year is the centenary year of this world's biggest film industry. Those three sections of main page are like almost booked by various articles on Indian films. Won't it to a bit too much of Indian filmi flavour for non-Indians and non-filmy readers? I also agree the article needs to be brought in shape. I will try and work on it. §§ Dharmadhyaksha §§ {T/C} 14:08, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Cool, Indian cinema-themed Main page, support the idea! --Tone 14:42, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * My initial reaction was neutral as I debated if the news is significant, however the notion of an Indian cinema themed main page has me pleasantly intrigued. I would support an ITN for May 3 but with some explanation about the award as pointed out by Indopug below. LegalEagle (talk) 10:24, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment I don't know anything about ITN to support or oppose, but I feel there should be an explanation of what the award is. Maybe append a "awarded for a lifetime contribution to Indian cinema."—indopug (talk) 14:11, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Why can't the nomination be posted now? It's for certain that the winner will receive the award on May 3, 2013. Staleness has been the issue in the past as well. Regards,  theTigerKing  18:14, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Notable award in the second-most populated country in the world.  331dot (talk) 19:42, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support now - highest award in a major cinematic region. No need to wait (even if he died it would still be awarded to him) - it's "in the news" now. --ThaddeusB (talk) 22:49, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Yes, it'd be worth it to get Margaret Thatcher's picture off the front page. 79.75.87.76 (talk) 23:11, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Note - Pran has an orange tag on the career section which will need to be addressed before this can be posted. Also, I would like to see more than 2 sentences about the award.  Either specific reasons cited by those awarders as to why Pran was selected, or reactions from others in the industry would be good places to look to for content. --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:28, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have cleaned the whole article once. But i can't remove those tags myself. Also have added a bit more about the award. Thanks for the reactions tip. §§ Dharmadhyaksha §§ {T/C} 04:04, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Excellent work, I have removed the tags. I think we are ready to post now. --LukeSurlt c 10:36, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Good to go, thanks! --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:29, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support as this one seems pretty significant. Awarding the country's highest honour in cinema to one of the greatest actors of the largest film industry in the world is a very big deal.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 13:03, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support: I think this is pretty significant considering the scale and popularity of the Indian cinema industry. Plus, this is a lifetime award. Chamal T •C 13:14, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Recipient of a national award is not enough. He doesn't seem that famous, judging by the number of interwiki links ++. Mocctur (talk) 15:44, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If national stories/awards weren't good enough, we'd never post anything. The vast majority of all stories we post are of "only" national significance. --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:29, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Let's not delay the posting of an article yet again. Regards,  theTigerKing  19:32, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support I'd prefer it to be posted when the award is given, but it's not a big deal. Ryan Vesey 19:36, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - article is in good shape and also that this is the highest award given to people who have contributed to Indian cinema. Tolly  4  bolly  20:10, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted --  tariq abjotu  00:41, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Mass car recall
Not sure what one might nominate, but it seems to be in the news, - perhaps airbags or Automotive industry in Japan? - 3.4 million cars being recalled due to potentially faulty passenger side airbags, honda, mazda, nissan and toyota (listed alphabetically) all using the same supplier. bbc article EdwardLane (talk) 08:56, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The appropriate article would be the airbag manfacturer, Takata_Corporation or Takata-Petri. These two articles are for related corporate entities abd are near-exact copies of each other - something has clearly gone wrong there. There would need to be some serious work to get a front-page ready article. LukeSurlt c 14:00, 11 April 2013 (UTC)


 * As far as I can work out from the Takata website, Takata acquired Petri in 2000 and formed a European subsidiary, Takata-Petri. What we should probably have is an article on Takata Corporation, including a section for Takata-Petri, plus a separate article on Petri AG as a company up to 2000. The article seems to be wrong in suggesting that the two companies merged.
 * As far as the nomination goes, are mass recalls not just something that car manufacturers do all the time? Formerip (talk) 14:35, 11 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose, most of the cars being recalled are 10 years old or more, and consequently fewer in number than the news media are reporting. My feeling is that the average reader will want exacting details on what to do with their vehicle, so any article on the recall will venturing into WP:NOTHOWTO. Otherwise the information will be spread out over several articles and unsuitable for ITN. Abductive  (reasoning) 15:04, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Record low computer sales

 * Strong oppose on this one. No actual indication of some sort of sudden paradigm shift in the consumer market, seeing as these are just Q1 stats. I can attest to the fact that Windows 8 also can't possibly be to blame for this drop, seeing as every single person I've spoken to actually like the OS (I don't share the same opinion, however), and frankly, the average consumer couldn't care less about the OS when purchasing a PC. And yeah, mobile is taking over, but that isn't news. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  05:27, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The largest drop in 20+ years of tracking is big news no matter the cause. --ThaddeusB (talk) 05:32, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong support This isn't being reported as a stat, this is being reported as a crisis and is getting international attention. The Wall Street Journal says "Computer Sales in Free Fall" and "The personal computer is in crisis".  The issue is discussed in Germany, The Philippines, Australia, Taiwan, China etc.  In the states it is being picked up by news agencies like the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, and Forbes.  This is clearly considered a very significant event. Ryan Vesey 05:44, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose unless there are some specific things that are strongly affected with the decline. The decline in sales continues over years and is not that important by itself as a global trend in the world. Compare this with the most recent economic and financial crisis; we didn't post that the world is in economic or financial crisis, but we posted some specifics that were influenced by the crisis, most notably the effects on the sovereign debt crisis provoking austerity measures in many countries. So, if this results in significant effects in the whole industry, then it'd be much more notable than this one (e.g. effects on cutting down the profit of the largest corporations in the industry, outbreak of new growing technologies etc.).--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 09:33, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. What is the event here? 'Long-standing trend continues, to the surprise of absolutely no-one'? That isn't a news story. We wouldn't post the sales figures for any other kind of consumer goods either. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 12:22, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Just market forces at work; it's not due to a specific event like a disaster or supply shortage. 331dot (talk) 12:26, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose I think it demonstrates somewhat original attitude to suggest big conclusions of this. Some analysts seem to think this means the end of PC, but I'd rather see more hard and long-term data. It might be just a temporary disruption caused by the failure of Windows 8. --hydrox (talk) 14:32, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * And this is why we NEVER post a business story: global implications, record sales fall in 20+ year history, major industry, and near unanimous opposition. I don't know what people consider a significant business story (probably only massive illegal activity I guess), but sales figures are the heart of business news. Might as well just rename it dITN (deaths in the news), because nothign else non-ITNR gets posted (and if ITNR didn't exist even less non-death would get posted, as many ITNR items are unpopular).  --ThaddeusB (talk) 20:31, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * ITN is not a business news ticker. There isn't a single cause of this statistic to hang our hat on; if PC companies start to announce massive layoffs, plant closures, or going out of business as a result of this sales drop, then there might be something.  Otherwise, it's just market forces. 331dot (talk) 20:59, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not true that we never post business stories. We've posted a number of stories involving bankruptcies or mergers, as well as several stories relating to the Eurozone crisis. Neljack (talk) 21:12, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * To add, we also post completion of major infrastructure works globally (though I would appreciate see more of them nominated.) Those are also "business stories". --hydrox (talk) 21:22, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * (To all above) Yes, a few stories are posted a year. "Never" is an exaggeration, but my point remains - very little non-death material (of any sort) makes it through. People say they want more variety, but non-death stories typically receive very little support, and even ITNR items typically get some (pointless) opposition.  --ThaddeusB (talk) 00:37, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Could you tell me what was the last story listed as ITN/R that got pointless opposition and wasn't posted at all?--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 00:46, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Why the snide remark? I obviously said pointless because the opposition is ignored.  (Although many such items are in fact not posted due to lack of update so I could play your dumb game and give examples if I wanted.) --ThaddeusB (talk) 22:51, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Requesting comments I have opened a proposal to bring back "Minority topics". Nothing to do with this individual nomination (that I opposed), but I definitely do agree to above comments by ThaddeusB that ITN has become too death-centered, and we need more business and tech items, along with high culture. --hydrox (talk) 23:31, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Thatcher to RD
Why not. It's clear that the boys club here doesn't like women (see the hockey nom below) and there's precedent to this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.93.33.119 (talk) 00:16, 11 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose. We've got a real problem at the moment with all the blurbs being dreary and depressing. We really need to keep hold of whatever good news stories we can. Formerip (talk) 00:21, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * oppose and close per SNOW and POINT.--Johnsemlak (talk) 00:30, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose and speedy close as a provocative violation of WP:POINT. --hydrox (talk) 00:32, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

[Pulled] Pull Roger Ebert to recent deaths
I myself supported Ebert as a full blurb. Upon reflection, I increasingly believe that, while Ebert was about as notable of a film critic as could possibly be, his death wasn't 'what we had in mind' for full blurb deaths when we introduced the RD line. So I suggest we now move Ebert down to the RD line for as long as he should be there. I make no judgement, nor do I think others should, on the decision to post a blurb earlier as there was a fairly solid consensus. He's had his time on the main template. With Thatcher up there now and with a likely RD to be added soon, I think now is time to move Ebert down to the RD line, with no regrets.--Johnsemlak (talk) 18:27, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: This should ideally be discussed in the nomination section with the rest of the comments, at In_the_news/Candidates.  Spencer T♦ C 18:31, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I thought of that but I believe there's precedent for nominating removals as a separate entry. I wouldn't be opposed though to someone simply moving this discussion --though in that case lets at least leave a note here.--Johnsemlak (talk) 19:31, 10 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Agree. He and Edwards show the high threshold that we should have for RDs, but neither come close to the standard applicable for full blurb. Kevin McE (talk) 19:17, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Ebert was super-famous in the USA, but beyond that, not really. At all. His legacy will be .... limited.  Edwards is not super-famous at all, but his legacy will endure forever.  Both seem suitably suited for RD.  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:19, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm Canadian and have long been very familiar with Roger Ebert. Kurtis (talk) 02:11, 11 April 2013 (UTC)


 * What the hell, better late than never. I'd say there wasn't really ever a consensus for it anyway. Formerip (talk) 19:20, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Meh - It's two from the bottom anyway. Not sure this is worth getting too bothered about. --LukeSurlt c 19:21, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Heh quite! The Rambling Man (talk) 19:23, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Nominator's 2¢ I nominated this article for RD and was surprised to see the consensus be for a full blurb. I have no problems with it being "demoted", or kept where it is. Luke is right that it'll be off the template soon anyway, especially when the worthy items below get posted. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:25, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, done. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:36, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You really need to relax on making these types of decisions so quickly, Rambling. There was a valid consensus to post this in the first place and certainly way too little discussion to warrant a pull. In fact, your past three decisions on ITN (Ebert RD post, Edwards, and this) have been called premature by a few. This isn't a race, and there certainly is no rush. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  05:17, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your advice! I'll certainly bear it mind in the future! The Rambling Man (talk) 07:22, 11 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment My opinion is still that RD was introduced for exactly deaths like Ebert's. In my mind, what we saw with that nomination, was a wave of editors that rarely comment on ITN nominations rallying for a full blurb. Most editors opposing the full blurb seemed to be more-or-less ITN "regulars", and saw it correctly as a clear RD case. Ebert remains a largely unknown figure outside the US and apparently even to a quite large portion of the US general public. I would like to contrast this with the recent passing of Margaret Thatcher, who was one of the top ten recognized British figures of 20th century, a pretty major player of the late 20th century global politics and whose death dominated the global news cycle for a full day -- a clear blurb case. --hydrox (talk) 19:43, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Meh I have to say I was surprised to see so much support for a full blurb in the first place. I don't think harm was done either way, posting or demoting. I do think we should have three listings on RD as the default state when we have reasonable nominations like those three pending below.  Supports and oppositions should be relative to the alternatives--other noms or blank space.  Blank space is bad, umkay? μηδείς (talk) 20:06, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * LOL apparently when the question is demoting a US item, two hours is more than enough to draw a conclusion, but when a US item has strong consensus to post after 5 hours and someone marks it ready, they are called "sneaky" for not waiting for Europeans to chime in. Yah, no anti-US bias here at all. (For the record, I have no opinion on full blurb or RD - that is why I didn't comment the first time.)--ThaddeusB (talk) 21:44, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * ...except that those two hours haven't been whilst the US is asleep, which was the case with the other one.   Also, I wouldn't call Ebert necessarily an American item - he's obviously better known in the USA, but I'm certainly quite familiar with him, as I'm sure many movie fans worldwide are. Black Kite (talk) 23:11, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

(UTC)
 * An admin acting like this...you make it seem as if Europeans shouldn't "chime in" on US-centric topics, along with using one voters comment to make an accusation of across the board bias...and I voted support on the topic in question - and I don't see a "Clear consensus to post". Look how many topics that get 3 - 4 support votes and nothing else never got posted. Seriously. --85.210.105.196 (talk) 12:21, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support pull Just want to add my voices to those saying that there should be a very high threshold for a full blurb for someone who hasn't died in a notable way (e.g. assassination) and isn't holding high office. I would expect such cases to occur a few times a year at most. I was astonished to see that Ebert had been given a full blurb. He and his death may have been huge in the US (or maybe particularly among a young, internet-savvy, interested in popular culture and movies demographic?), but not worldwide. I suspect most people elsewhere had never heard of him (I had, though I wasn't very familiar with him). Neljack (talk) 00:00, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Just to point out, if we posted this (consensus to post, probably ready) and this (ITNR election, borderline ready) then this entire discussion would be moot as April 4 would "fall off the bottom" of the template. LukeSurlt c 00:11, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I personally disagree with everyone else here, and I think Roger Ebert is notable enough for a full blurb. He was a high profile public figure and the most famous film critic in history. But then, if consensus is that he merely meets the threshold for "RD" without actually warranting a full blurb, then that's fine as well. Kurtis (talk) 02:10, 11 April 2013
 * There is no set criteria to determine who gets a full blurb or who gets an RD listing. There was clear consensus to post a full blurb in this case, and removing the full blurb based on this farce of a conversation is a joke.    Hot Stop     (Talk)   02:24, 11 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Totally disagree with this decision, as I mentioned above, but no sense in crying over it seeing as he was probably going to be booted on next rotation anyway. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  05:17, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Robert G. Edwards for R.D.

 * Support for RD. Highly significant scientific figure. AlexTiefling (talk) 13:10, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support: clearly a leading figure in an important field. Kevin McE (talk) 14:51, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support RD or full blurb. Nobel prize winner, pioneer in field of great popular interest. Espresso Addict (talk) 15:00, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - Clear candidate for RD, notable enough in his field. --85.211.116.52 (talk) 15:06, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support full blurb Given the precedent that we posted full blurb for Ebert's death, there is nothing that sets Edwards apart from him. The fact that he won a Nobel Prize for his pioneering work in the field of in-vitro fertilisation gives additional plus to it.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 15:54, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support RD, oppose full blurb He's not even in the same stratosphere with Ebert regarding reader familiarity/interest. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:00, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Ebert's reviews may have been familiar to most moviegoers, at least in the sense that every time there's a quote from a reviewer, it's always from him, but I don't think Ebert per se was familiar, as most moviegoers don't actually care about who reviewed the film.... actually Ebert's case is similar to this guy. People know about test tube babies, but they don't necessarily know the person behind it. – H T  D  16:05, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry Muboshgu but the cultural and social impact of IVF by far outweighs a television critic. And will by far outlive the opinions of a television critic.  The Rambling Man (talk) 16:10, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes the importance of IVF is more than the importance of Ebert, but this isn't IVF, it's the guy who worked on it. That's not the same. And Ebert is far more familiar through his TV shows and etc. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:11, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * HTD has definitely a very good reasoning. Wikipedia is not and shouldn't be a tabloid to prefer deaths of people who were more familiar with their work in the media. There are so many important people that couldn't reach the fame as celebrities in the media but do much greater job than many others.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 16:21, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * To say this Nobel Prize-winning pioneer of IVF is "the guy who worked on it" is an incredible understatement. And Ebert is far more familiar in the US.  Not a ripple of recognition for Ebert really in the UK, but everyone's heard of test tube babies, haven't they?  The Rambling Man (talk) 16:32, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, agree to disagree, aside from the fact that saying he "worked on it" wasn't giving him nearly enough credit. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:07, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Cool. US television critic vs Nobel Prize-winning scientist who is effectively responsible for the birth of four million children.  Hmmmm....! The Rambling Man (talk) 17:27, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * How many people know that? – Muboshgu (talk) 17:31, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Stupid question warning. How do you expect me to answer that?  How many people have heard of Ebert?  Stupid question warning.  Point is that Ebert's contribution to life will disappear in next-to-no time, whereas the man who pioneered IVF's contribution to humanity is beyond doubt.  Four million children already, and they have children, grandchildren etc.... only alive because of his work.  The Rambling Man (talk) 17:36, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I know it's only a sample of one, but I had heard of Edwards but not Ebert. Also, I don't think Edwards was actually responsible for the birth of four million children. He was just a bit of a boaster, like Russell Brand. Formerip (talk) 20:31, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, Edwards was often known for boasting about his profligacy! :) The Rambling Man (talk) 20:34, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support for RD but please note he is usually known as simply Robert Edwards - the middle G. in the article title is simply a disambiguation quirk. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:04, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I would say he's more usually known as Sir Robert Edwards, but you're definitely right about the G. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:10, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Needs a more thorough update - eight words isn't going to cut it. The easiest way to expand the death section is include some info on reactions to his death. --ThaddeusB (talk) 16:07, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Uhhuh, please feel free and indeed encouraged to contribute. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:10, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The remarkably stupid "five sentence/two refs" update now complete. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:28, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support and propose blurb. It wouldn't be an exaggeration to say that he's the most significant figure in the history of reproductive medicine. And, I don't want to lay it on too thick, but we recently blurbed a dead film critic. Formerip (talk) 16:23, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes indeed! The Rambling Man (talk) 16:32, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support for blurb The concept of IVF pioneered by him is significant in medical world.Blurb: Robert G. Edwards, nobel prize winner for in vitro fertilisation, dies at the age of 87. Regards,  theTigerKing  16:54, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support full blurb Clearly widely-regarded with Nobel Prize, and important figure in history of IVF. Teemu08 (talk) 16:59, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Blurb this is a development that would have occurred sooner or later, not an unexpected breakthrough--RD is more than enough. μηδείς (talk) 17:04, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The death is notable and covered by respected publishers/media around the world. Regards,  theTigerKing  17:18, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This is most certainly the most absurd oppose I've ever read. "this is a development that would have occurred sooner or later", that is true of every single scientific discovery. Well done Medies, you've excelled yourself today!!!  Glad you didn't go so far as to oppose RD, one redeeming feature of your "opinion"! The Rambling Man (talk) 17:27, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, Rambling, your name is well chosen. "Up my meds, quick!" would also have worked well for you too. μηδείς (talk) 20:13, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Funny, nice personal attack. Noted!  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:16, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * From Medeis' recent behavior, I can only surmise that he is trying to get himself a time out. I would just ignore him. --ThaddeusB (talk) 21:54, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Posted as an RD. (Note: I'm disgusted at myself for doing this to my own nomination, but an RD is simple, it looks like we have a very clear consensus for an RD, and if an extended discussion results in a full blurb, so be it). The Rambling Man (talk) 20:59, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support full blurb if there's consensus per above. No comment on the Ebert comparison.--Johnsemlak (talk) 17:42, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That said, I think perhaps swapping Edwards in for Ebert (Move Ebert down to RD) might be appropriate--particularly to avoid clogging up the template with RD blurbs.--Johnsemlak (talk) 17:45, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support RD, oppose blurb. I don't think Ebert should have been a full blurb, and neither should this. Death blurbs should only be for individuals whose deaths are front page, headline news and cause significant reaction (i.e. Thatcher). With all respect, this is more "front of the obituaries section". --LukeSurlt c 17:51, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support RD, oppose blurb. Save full death blurbs for folks as well-known as Thatcher. Everyone else, to the RD space. 79.75.87.76 (talk) 18:10, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * All due respect to Edwards, but this guy's not Edison. He didn't come up with a whole new technology someone hadn't even conceived of before him.  (Wow, that was unintentional!)  He's simply the guy who was in that field when it matured to that point.  Feverished full-blurbanists need to read Marx for how societies develop and Brave New World]] to see that this was competent engineering, not unprecedented invention. μηδείς (talk) 20:20, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, Medis is "right", all he did was win a Nobel Prize for co-inventing IVF which has allowed over four million children to be born to parents who struggled/couldn't conceive. Not sure at all why Edison is mentioned in the same sentence, any scientific advance will be discovered eventually.  Regardless of Medis' opinion, Edwards is acknowledged worldwide by a number of sources (dare I say) more able and rounded than Medis, as an IVF pioneer and one of the most significant scientists who has made a prolific tangible impact to Joe Bloggs.  I thought this was "In the news" not "What Medis thinks is pertinent to the world order"... The Rambling Man (talk) 20:24, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Seriously, get on the AGF bandwagon and show some fucking respect. You can't even spell my name correctly?  We've had the "do we list Nobel Prize Winners ipso facto" debate before, and the answer was a resounding no.  I marked this nomination updated because it is.  I haven't opposed the nom, but you have attacked me for doing so.  I am opposed to a full blurb, and I have given my reasons, with which a majority here agree.  You need to separate your emotions from your actions and stop behaving like a prepubescent. μηδείς (talk) 21:02, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, your signature isn't in a Latin script, who knows why. You tried some strawman debate comparing Edwards with Edison (not to mention your overtly good faith "Up my meds, quick!" comment, brilliant!).  Noted.  Deal with it.  The Rambling Man (talk) 21:09, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I was going to post it this evening; I was just waiting for a more clear consensus on the level of posting... Posting one's own nomination (and update) is a really bad idea. I would avoid it in the future. --ThaddeusB (talk) 21:51, 10 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose full blurb. Don't let the Ebert death become the benchmark to which everything is compared. The point of RD was to avoid repetitive blurbs, with very special exceptions. To me, Ebert qualified because of his absolute dominance over film reviews all the way to his death. This is a notable death, but not to that exceptional extent. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  04:59, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose full blurb, old man dies, known for one thing, not a household name. Abductive  (reasoning) 15:06, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * And yet you vigorously supported the posting of Ebert, about whom exactly the same could be said. Kevin McE (talk) 15:16, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Notable for one discovery =/= notable for lifetime career. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  18:29, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Ebert was the most important critic of the film industry, and his influence did not stop at the borders of the US anymore than US movies did. Glance at the article Hegemony for a fuller understanding. Abductive  (reasoning) 20:05, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Absurd assertions. Edwards' worldwide legacy will endure forever, that is beyond dispute.  Ebert will be forgotten in a decade.  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:07, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Has Pauline Kael been forgotten? She died in 2001 and still gets hundreds of page views. Robert G. Edwards gets less views, and even on the day of his death a mere 12k. Ebert's article has been viewed 1.25 million times, 100-fold greater than Dr OneThing. Abductive  (reasoning) 20:19, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, well your clear lack of respect for a Nobel Prize winning scientist who's pioneering work has enabled the birth of four million people so far is obvious. Sure, a guy who commented on movies will have a much more far-reaching legacy.... sure.  Yes, popular culture would show more interest in a film critic, particularly an American one.  So yes, page views are going to skew that way.  But I'm sure Two girls, one cup and Sasha Grey get bags of hits too. Your "Kael" example averages 300 page views a day.  Now then, Robin Day, a British journalist who died in 2000 averages over 100 page views a day. He was well known in the UK (population 60 million) but not in the USA (population ~ 300 million).  You see, your stats can "prove" or "disprove" anything Senor Abductive.  None of it is relevant to the true legacy of a scientist whose legacy will endure forever, unlike a film critic who was no doubt stimulating and wrote well, but ... nothing more.  Strawman arguments are entirely pointless.  But good try. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:54, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Lack of respect for Robert G. Edwards? How is that contained in anything I say? All I'm doing is pointing out that critics of all sorts are remembered. Take Petronius for example. Abductive  (reasoning) 02:05, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "Dr OneThing" seems pretty disrespectful. 138.38.73.184 (talk) 08:34, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * A reference to WP:BLP1E. That one thing can be very important. Abductive  (reasoning) 04:39, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

2013 IIHF Women's World Championship

 * Support Per nom. Ryan Vesey 02:11, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll note that I'm probably going against whatever rules there are for ITN by saying this, but the fact that major news outlets, and society in general, pay less attention to women's team sports strengthens my support for this nomination.  Wikipedia should stop being part of the problem of ignoring women's sports by drawing attention to significant sporting events such as this one.  I can also happily point out that we posted the 2013 Women's Cricket World Cup Final in February. Ryan Vesey 02:39, 10 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose - Sorry, but at the risk of sounding sexist, I think that most women's team sports aren't recurring items for a good reason: nobody really cares. The level of competition is usually lower, and I suspect that reader interest in this item would be pretty limited (unless perhaps it was part of the Olympics or something). --Bongwarrior (talk) 02:25, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support USA! USA! USA!  Hot Stop     (Talk)   02:26, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's nice to see you've had a feminist conversion since opposing the Cricket World Cup nomination. Formerip (talk) 10:16, 10 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - If people want to combat systematic bias (pro US, anti-women), nominating items like this (instead of opposing otherwise way more well covered events) is a good way to do it. Also, it would be nice to have at least one non-death item on ITN. --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:13, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose USA? USA? USA? μηδείς (talk) 03:29, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose attendance of 97,156 (4,626 per match) is too low, 2011 FIFA Women's World Cup was 845,751 (26,430 per match), maybe the real ice hockey is in the olimpycs, not the World Championship... I dont know this sport--Feroang (talk) 03:41, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comparing the low level of attendance to the same in football is not possible since ice-hockey is played indoors and football outdoors; the only solution might be to get a proportion out of the total capacity of the venue or the stadium.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 07:36, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Such data is available to us. Capacity of Scotiabank Place (seated) is given as 19,153: average attendance at Ottawa Senators matches this season is 19,244 (presumably some stand). Attendance at final was 13,776 (72%), for the semifinals 4,035 (21%) and 7,255 (38%).  On that evidence, oppose.  Kevin McE (talk) 12:37, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * On that basis? You just pointed out that for the finals, the stadium was filled to 72% capacity.  That's exceptional.  To expect the same level of attendence at a women's match as at a men's match would be kidding ourselves. Ryan Vesey 12:51, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Only 13,776 watched? Earlier this year, I saw on TV close to 19,000 people watch a women's college volleyball game, that's not in the U.S. or any country where whites are a significant minority. That's still just over a thousand more people than the women's basketball final in the U.S. That's actually less than the most attended regular season game, for some reason. – H T  D  15:49, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * In that case, to expect women's sport to be treated as of equal importance at ITN as men's events would be kidding ourselves. The world championship final, with the finalists being the host nation and their nearest and closest rivals, and they can't even sell 3/4 of the tickets in a city where routine league matches sell out every single time: that is rather pathetic.  Kevin McE (talk) 13:14, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comparing women's hockey against the NHL is no less an apples to oranges comparison than women's hockey to women's soccer is. I understand the "lack of major coverage" argument for opposing this, but this line is rather silly, imnsho.  On this argument, I fully expect you will be supporting if the next World Junior Hockey Championship played in Canada is nominated. Resolute 13:32, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * But the proposal that we put this on ITN is a proposal that we consider it to be of comparable interest to the most important men's matches. If they are not of comparable interest, they shouldn't be proposed here.  To examine such a contention, objective measures like ticket demand are useful.  I repeat the question I put in my edit note: according to the people of Ottawa, this game is less important than a routine league match,so why would we treat it otherwise? It is not of great interest to the people of Ottawa, even when their own country is in a world championship match on their doorstep: why would we think it is great interest to the readership of Wikiipedia's main page? Kevin McE (talk) 14:26, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see any reason at all why this should be considered against men's matches. You are introducing red herring fallacies, because the "routine league matches" that should be considered against are either Canadian Women's Hockey League or OHA Senior women's leagues, not the NHL.  And in that case, the world championship most certainly trumps the comparable league games by a significant margin. Resolute 15:06, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * What could be the limiting factors on attendance at the event? Interest in the event, interest in the sport, interest in the participants, or availability of tickets. It is easily proved that ticket availability is not an issue, and that interest in ice hockey and national pride are not lacking in Ottawa, so the only remaining factor that can explain the failure to sell out a modest sized venue is lack of interest in the event.  And if interest is so sadly lacking, it should not be at ITN. Kevin McE (talk) 15:21, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * So if there was a recent sporting event with massive interest you'd support that?   Hot Stop     (Talk)   15:25, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Interest levels are one factor, but not the only one. Kevin McE (talk) 15:40, 10 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support mostly because the article is relatively complete and has a decent amount of prose (moreso than many articles of this type when nominated), and the topic is a minority topic, and I see both of those as overcoming the shortcomings of the level of coverage. -- Jayron  32  05:17, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment This article from USA Today shows that this championship will have lasting significance. Women's hockey was at risk of being dropped from the Olympics for lack of competitiveness, but the level of competitiveness at this tournament has quelled that threat.  The information needs to be included in the article.  Can someone do that?  I'm unable to continue editing tonight (and I'm not really sure where to put it in the current article layout). Ryan Vesey 05:25, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Please don't. The article says that the head of the IIHF believes that the threat has been quelled; he is obviously a severely biased party here, and is just trying to improve the chances of his sport to remain an Olympic sport (which is only natural); but to report this as if it is a fact is completely wrong, and the article doesn't show at all that the championship will have lasting significance. It is the opinion of one highly partial commentator, not of neutral, reliable sources. Fram (talk) 09:12, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose It's definitely the top-class tournament in a popular sport with teams participating from different countries, but unfortunately it didn't receive much attention in the media in the world. However, there is a firm base for this nomination to improve over the years and one day to be fully eligible for inclusion.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 07:36, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose per Kiril; it's doesn't quite have a high level of notability yet or wide coverage (can't find it on CNN, NBC News, or BBC). 331dot (talk) 09:02, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak Support As Ryan says, we posted the Women's Cricket World Cup Final, though that did have more coverage than this. Black Kite (talk) 09:50, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak support, per Black Kite and because nobody died. Or at least I assume not, or we would have already posted it. Formerip (talk) 10:05, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Useless stats: FWIW (basically nothing), this had half the page views of the 2010_FIBA_World_Championship_for_Women, which has half the stats of 2013 Women's Cricket World Cup. But 2011_World_Netball_Championships pwns them all (this was posted, though.). – H T  D  14:36, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Per above comment. Regards,  theTigerKing  16:58, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Most significant women's hockey event in Ottawa since Dany Heatley. --12.41.124.5 (talk) 21:06, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support There is systemic bias against women's sport. We need to counteract this sexism. This is a good article and it is a tournament that has received international coverage. Neljack (talk) 23:37, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not for righting wrongs or fighting sexism. If women's ice hockey is not widely covered(wasn't even mentioned on some US news outlets) or does not draws large audiences, that is not our problem. 331dot (talk) 23:56, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose I checked the archives and women's IIHF hockey world championships have never been featured on ITN before, and I don't see any reason why it should now be on news notability grounds (even if the USA won it this year.) Wikipedia is not here to right wrongs about perceived sexism in media's coverage. --hydrox (talk) 00:34, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS has nothing to do with this, it refers to advocacy in articles/NPOV. Avoiding systemic bias is a goal that Wikipedia can and should have. Ryan Vesey 01:03, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * What exactly is the systemic bias? Wikipedia is not responsible for the fact that women's ice hockey does not have the same level of attention, coverage, or number of fans as that of men's hockey.  Men's and women's hockey should be treated equally if they are equal- but they aren't. 331dot (talk) 01:47, 11 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose with regret. If and when the women's game reaches a similar level of public and media interest to men's (as it has in tennis, for example), then we can start posting these. In ice hockey it isn't remotely close to that point. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 12:17, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * and there in lies the Catch-22. Popularity of, interest in, and funding of(!), women's sports won't grow with out coverage (being reporting on), but "we" don't cover them because they aren't popular, but they can't grow in popularity because they're not reported on, but we can't report on them because they're not popular, but they're not popular because we don't report on them, but we shouldn't report on them unless they're popular, but how can they become popular unless we report on them.................
 * While I agree with the sentiment, others are correct that it isn't Wikipedia's place to fix this. At any rate, I've expanded it far enough to qualify for a did you know nomination, so it will still get a few hours in the sun on the main page. Resolute 22:54, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Thematic debate on the role of international criminal justice in reconciliation

 * Oppose. I don't really see the significance here; it just seems to be a debate. 331dot (talk) 02:03, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong Oppose Just a debate. Regards,  theTigerKing  17:01, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] UN peacekeepers killed in South Sudan

 * Support Mass killings of UN personnel are almost always notable. --hydrox (talk) 21:53, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment. Once that nice jolly story about North Korea gets bumped, it would be nice if ITN wasn't all death, death, death. Formerip (talk) 22:01, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "And everywhere I looked... was death, death, death!" Kurtis (talk) 12:00, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Someone uninvolved could post the 2013 Grand National nomination that's below.... The Rambling Man (talk) 12:31, 10 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment Unrelated events. Nomination somewhere down the page refers Sudan but this one happened in South Sudan-a separate country. We can't merge I guess. Regards,  theTigerKing  17:07, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Killings of 9 personnel of UN personnel is worthy of ITN. Infrequent and a sad incident. Regards,  theTigerKing  17:07, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support as per above. I think the article is just about ready. --LukeSurlt c 20:50, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted --  tariq abjotu  20:23, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] 2013 Bushehr earthquake

 * Support after update. This earthquake was felt in Bahrain, Qatar and UAE as well. This is perhaps the first in decades (if ever) that we feel in Bahrain. It also raised many questions and concerns about what could happen if the nuclear plant could be damaged in the future.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  17:55, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * After all the talk about Iran meddling in Bahraini internal affairs, we finally have a solid evidence :P  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  18:00, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Significant casualties, international coverage.  331dot (talk) 02:05, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, article is long enough now. Abductive  (reasoning) 02:59, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - Significant casualties. Article is now in adequate enough shape for posting. --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:00, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Dozens of quakes more notable than this in the area over the last century. μηδείς (talk) 03:32, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support: For reasons given above. Chocolate Horlicks (talk) 09:37, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support not a huge magnitude but significant damage and causalities. -- ELEKHHT 11:27, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, widespread and substantial impact. Mikael Häggström (talk) 16:20, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, Near-unanimous support. Lets not delay the posting. Regards,  theTigerKing  17:18, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted. --Bongwarrior (talk) 18:27, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Velika Ivanča shooting

 * Support - A high death toll and a comparatively rare event in Europe. AlexTiefling (talk) 09:52, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, notable in terms of both death toll and place. Egeymi (talk) 11:13, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support as per above. A note on the blurb, we could link to Velika Ivanča, but at the current time it is an 11-word stub. As English-languages sources are unlikely to be available for a small Serbian village (information on this incident aside), this article is unlikely to be expanded unless there is Serbian-speaking assistance here. LukeSurlt c 11:29, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It would be nice for the article to grow a bit more, then ready to post. --Tone 11:40, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think it's just about at minimum standards now. LukeSurlt c 13:02, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok, posting. --Tone 13:08, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's notable enough and the update is good enough. Thank you for posting. --85.211.123.168 (talk) 17:05, 9 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support Spontaneous mass killings of civilians are blurb-worthy I think. Brandmeistertalk  17:41, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] 163 killed in Sudan

 * Is this related to the UN peacekeeper related violence nominated above?  Spencer T♦ C 22:51, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Per comment on other blurb, apparently not. --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:12, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This is a fight between rival tribes in Sudan, a not infrequent occurrence in this troubled region where tribal grudges run deep and resources are scarce. The other is an attack on a UN convoy by anti-government rebels in South Sudan - Dumelow (talk) 21:07, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - large death toll (larger than the other recent incidents) justifies posting again. --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:12, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support The death toll is high. Regards,  theTigerKing  17:20, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support as per above, and a general sensibility that we should make an effort to discuss all major conflicts occasionally. One point of concern, the article states "As of 9 April there has been no apparent government response." (I changed this from "so far there has been no apparent government response") Has there been any in the last 24 hours? I'm finding news sources hard to come by for this story, which I suppose is the nature of events that occur in this unfortunate region. --LukeSurlt c 19:25, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Not that I am aware of, the government seems generally unable (or unwilling, many of these tribes fought as militias for one side or another in the civil wars of the past decades) to halt this conflict. Due to the instability of teh region news sources are generally limited to local media reports that are occasionally picked up by the press agencies.  I will keep an eye out and update as necessary - Dumelow (talk) 21:07, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Any chance of this getting posted? The New York Times has given a figure of 50,000 people forced to flee the country by this violence - Dumelow (talk) 07:56, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Posted.  Spencer T♦ C 18:58, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] 2013 NCAA Men's Division I Basketball Tournament

 * Support Football doesn't get posted because there's no real championship in the absence of a playoff system. There's no reason not to post this. Ryan Vesey 01:51, 9 April 2013 (UTC)


 * In before the long unproductive "discussion" about to ensue...--WaltCip (talk) 02:10, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * ***grabs peanuts*** – H T  D  04:46, 9 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support agreed. YE <font color="#66666">Pacific  <font color="#66666">Hurricane  02:24, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose How much do the Irish care about this? The Slovenes? μηδείς (talk) 02:53, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * What does that have to do with anything? YE <font color="#66666">Pacific  <font color="#66666">Hurricane  03:25, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * As many commonly note, do not "... complain about an event only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one. This applies to a high percentage of the content we post and is unproductive." Ryan Vesey 03:27, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Are you trying to make a WP:POINT, like with your Ebert redirect? – Muboshgu (talk) 03:38, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * How much do the Italians care about this? The Slovaks? μηδείς (talk) 00:45, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll take that as a yes. --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:10, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose only because it is my understanding that only the top level of a sport gets posted, which college basketball is not. 331dot (talk) 03:05, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmmmm. I thought there was a discussion either at WT:ITN or WP:ITNR that ended with the consensus that whether or not a sporting event is top level or not won't be considered anymore. – H T  D  03:20, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This is the top amateur basketball competition in the U.S. – Muboshgu (talk) 03:38, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Europeans would even bring this down even more. "ZOMG NOT PROFESSIONAL", they'd say (but we've allowed not one but two GAA sports in here, because they chose not to be professional, which is the case in here too). It'll be better to say that this is the top level of a "sport of college basketball", or the very least, a variety of basketball. College basketball is different from basketball played in the NBA and the one sanctioned by FIBA. Halves instead of quarters (and with the team penalty), 35-second shot clocks instead of 24, narrower keys, shorter three point line, possession arrow vs. jump ball, no defensive three-second violations. The possession arrow screws up everything in the final minute: players from a team will instigate the other team to do a lane violation with them just to win possession. I just dunno if it's as different as say, test cricket from Twenty20, where once a "major" event from either version comes up, supporters all wet themselves for a massive support as if entire Ireland cares. (Well, Ireland might care about cricket more vs. basketball, but apparently not enough as it's not on the menu of RTE's sports website.) – H T  D  03:47, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I would not call it a variant, but I get what you mean. YE <font color="#66666">Pacific  <font color="#66666">Hurricane  04:00, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The question is if the rules is as different as the ones seen in cricket. If it is, it is at least a "variant" just as what you'd call ODI, Twenty20 and test matches as variants of cricket; same with regular rugby and rugby sevens. Unlike rugby and cricket, the variants of basketball have different governing bodies, so I dunno how that plays in. – H T  D  04:07, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know how to compare it to cricket variants, but there are definitely different rules in college basketball that differentiate it from the pros (U.S. and abroad) and international play through FIBA. "Amateur" doesn't mean "less than top level" either, since players who are college third years or younger are ineligible for the NBA Draft, meaning there's no more going straight from high school to college like some, like LeBron James, were able to do. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:11, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - In the United States, the NCAA tournament is the most popular basketball event. TV ratings are significantly higher than the NBA finals and the cultural impact is much greater. (That is, non-basketball fans pay attention in greater numbers than the NBA finals.)  International coverage is decent (as can be proven if desired), certainly greater than the other non-NBA basketball events on ITN/R. --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:43, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * 'support per above.--24.90.93.88 (talk) 03:45, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per ThaddeusB et. al. This is, after the NFL playoffs, the second most watched tournament (indeed, second most watch sporting event of any sort) in the U.S.  At one point, a few years back, I dug up the Neilsen ratings to demonstrate this, Neilsen did a report which nicely displayed how popular the tournament was vis-a-vis every other sporting event in the U.S., and the importance of this event in the U.S. sporting calendar is pretty stark.  I can't find it yet (still looking for it again), but basically this is the #2 sporting event annually in the U.S., and if any objective argument can be made based on a) media coverage and prominence in the sporting media or b) interest within the U.S., this event certainly beats anything outside of the NFL.  -- Jayron  32  04:28, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Here is the official Nielsen report for 2012 for all sporting events. The NCAA final game between Kansas and Kentucky got 20,869,000 TV viewers, which places it third for any championship game, after the BCS Championship Game (college football) with 26,380,000 viewers and the Super Bowl (at 111,460,000 viewers dwarfs anything else).  So, I overstated, it's the third most watched championship.  For comparison, the NBA finals (the championship series for professional basketball) averaged 16,855,000 viewers; so based on interest more people in the U.S. care about the NCAA championship than do the NBA championship, by a 5:4 margin.  -- Jayron  32  04:45, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * What makes you think the people here would support this (the #3 event) when they consistently rejected the #2 most watched event, has just recently tolerated the events ranked #1, the NBA, MLB and NHL, after failing to reject them before? – H T  D  04:54, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Just part of my belief that decisions should be based on evidence and measurables. We can debate what constitutes enough news coverage, or where that coverage appears, or what data we think is worthwhile, but lets at least make this about such things rather than about what we have personally heard about, or not heard about, or what we wished people cared about (i.e. professional vs. amateur status) rather than what they really do, as demonstrated by such evidence (coverage in news sources) and measurables (TV viewership).  -- Jayron  32  05:03, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Updated It has the bare minimum of five sentences (link). I'll add some more content before I go to bed. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:41, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I beat you to it. I was updating as you wrote this comment, I suppose. --ThaddeusB (talk) 05:04, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. The entire tournament features players from all over the globe; the tournament is not just limited to American players. In the championship game alone, Gorgui Dieng is from Senegal and Nik Stauskas is from Canada. Elsewhere, there were players from Cameroon, Iran, Australia, Lithuania, Trinidad and Tobago, France, Nigeria, Venezuela, Switzerland, Croatia, Sudan, Italy, Brazil, Sweden, Tunisia, Poland, Germany and Cote d'Ivoire, just to name a few.  Spencer T♦ C 04:51, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sneaky Non-ITN sporting event, from proposal all the way through to being marked Ready whilst Europe was asleep. Must remember that one for future reference. Black Kite (talk) 05:13, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Likewise we'll be sure to remember posting the death of a European politician while the new world was still having breakfast. Never forget. --IP98 (talk) 13:39, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I knew some European would complain about the timing. Why though? If there's consensus among Americans to post this through normal discussion, why do Europeans need to weigh in? When I see a discussion on a topic I'm not well versed in, I stay away. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:06, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually "some European" couldn't actually care less, which is why "some European" didn't Support or Oppose. "Some European" was merely pointing out that 3 hours from proposal to being marked Ready whilst many regular commenters would've been asleep is not the consensus way. Some European 20:55, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose, event restricted to male North American college basketball players. Mikael Häggström (talk) 06:19, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Shows a lack of understanding of the event in question. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:06, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is a blatant mischaracterization of the level of interest in the event. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C • Sign AAPT) 17:50, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This is blatantly false blatant misrepresentation; see my comment above (while the players must be enrolled at a North American college, they are not restricted to only being North Americans.  Spencer T♦ C 18:26, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support I used to think the idea of posting this (or the American Football equivalent) was silly - it only being a university tournament, after all. But I'm not an American, and after reading the arguments that have been made in favour (on this and previous occasions) I realised that I didn't understand the cultural significance of college sport in the US. The viewing figures, public interest and cultural impact (it isn't called "March Madness" for nothing!) is extraordinary, particularly for an amateur university tournament. The old "highest level of a sport" rule that has been mentioned has been abolished after discussion at ITN/R, and in any case it only applied to ITN/R. This may be largely of interest to Americans, but plenty of ITN/R events are chiefly of interest to people from one or a few countries (e.g. the Gaelic football championship). Plus there is a fair bit of overseas coverage. Neljack (talk) 06:54, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, this is a major headline and draws more interest and higher ratings than most professional sports. This year's tournament had high intrigue and a number of major headlines (Kevin Ware's injury, Rick Pitino winning on the day of his Hall of Fame induction, among others) and set an all-time attendance record. As others have stated, this tournament included many international players, including two prominently in the championship game, as well. Oren0 (talk) 08:18, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose: not the highest level of a sport, nor even a level at which players at the highest levels of the sport are entitled to participate. Not even listed at .  Mere popularity is not relevant, or we would have Ice factor idol frequently on our template.  A US phenomenon that does not generate large scale interest in media beyond that country (comparable to the Boat Race or Grand National recently in Britain, or the Ronde van Vlanderen in Belgium, watched by 1/6 of the population).  That is different from "Please do not complain about an event only relating to a single country," as it is not about where it relates to, but where there is interest. Kevin McE (talk) 08:52, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * grand national is ITNR  Hot Stop     (Talk)   12:08, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Absolutely is the highest level of basketball that these kids can play in. They're not eligible for the NBA because they're too young. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:07, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Looking at the NBA rulebook, I see no minimum age for being permitted to play. Please substantiate your claim.  Kevin McE (talk) 16:17, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You're looking at the wrong rulebook. I think that's for conduct of holding the games per se. The collective bargaining agreement between the players and the owners had an age limit of 19 years old: . Kobe Bryant would've stayed in college for 2 years if they followed the new CBA. – H T  D  16:32, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * See NBA high school draftees; players must be a year removed from high school before entering the NBA, and college is the "year-off" for all most all of them (Brandon Jennings is the only exception I can think of).  Spencer T♦ C 18:25, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * So any players over the age of 19 have decided to make themselves available for this event rather than the higher level of the game. Interesting.  And is there an upper age limit on players in this event, or a maximum number of years that a player could remain here?  Can players who have been in the NBA play at this level?  And why is it that half the squads on each of the finalists squads do not even have individual articles, and playing in this event does not lead to the supposition of meeting GNG implicit in listing at WP:ATHLETE?  Kevin McE (talk) 22:10, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * AFAIK there's no upper age limit; a player can be 28 years old and utterly dominate other players and lead his team to the title. NBA players can no longer play here since they were already paid at some point/already got an agent, and as per WP:NSPORT, amateur players can only have articles if they pass WP:GNG. – H T  D  03:48, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * But on the whole, they don't. Which undermines any suggestion that this is a top level of the sport.  So if it is not listed as top level sport, it can only be in as popular entertainment, which places this in the same category as Ice Factor Idol!, which we routinely reject. Kevin McE (talk) 09:13, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Theoretically, the best basketball player in the world doesn't like being paid, entered college at 23 and wanted to play the full four years, and may not play in the NBA, arguably the "top level" of the sport (Pau Gasol would never trade his NBA title to an Liga ACB one, and Dirk Nowitzki would never trade his MVP trophy to the Bundesliga trophy if he ever has one). I dunno what Ice Factor Idol is: do the best practitioners ply of whatever they do there? – H T  D  16:12, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That is correct - there is no age limit. There have been (rare) cases of people in their thirties playing college sports.  For what it is worth, just about all starters on top teams easily meet the GNG and thus are notable. --04:07, 10 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment. Can someone point me to the discussion where the highest level rule was "abolished"? 331dot (talk) 10:34, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Neljack (talk) 10:48, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That is about whether the top level event in every major sport should be listed at ITN/R. The present nomination does not rely on ITN/R, nor is it the top level championship in the sport, so I am unclear as to the relevance. Kevin McE (talk) 12:30, 9 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose. Per Kevin. Formerip (talk) 10:36, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose in principle. How many times do we need to have the same story again and again every year? Seems like some users are persistent all the time with their point to prove that a low-class basketball league in the United States is better than anything else in the world. Sorry but the conclusion of NBA is sufficient for this region and no more basketball stories are necessary, regardless of the fact that the game was watched by 'X' or 'Y' spectators in this region and that it broke voluminous number of non-significant records. I'd rather like to see more variety of basketball stories from the other parts of the world and there is simply no room on the main page to make it a tabloid with basketball news from North America (mostly from the United States).--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 10:38, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not low-class and it's fairly significant IMO. YE <font color="#66666">Pacific  <font color="#66666">Hurricane  12:51, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Calling the event "low-class" betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of how sports work in America and also of how basketball skill is distributed. Sports in the US do not use a class system the way European sports do.  In terms of quality of play, the NCAA is secondary only to the NBA - a top college team would beat a top Euro Basket team, for example, more often than not. The rules are different creating a different (but related) required skill set.  A fair percentage of top college players are duds in the NBA because their skills do not translate; conversely many top NBA players were not stars in college because their skills do not work as well in the college game.  Indeed, a team of college all-stars once beat the Dream Team because the pro players were less accustom to the rule set used.  Finally, it is inaccurate to accuse people of trying to prove a point by renominating this again and again, as it has indeed been posted before. --ThaddeusB (talk) 15:21, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You mention that "a top college team would beat a top Euro Basket team". Really? Even if it's true, this is not place to contest that the United States is better than the rest of the world.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 01:38, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes really. Euro teams are mostly made up of players not good enough or the NBA.  Top college teams have multiple players good enough, but not old enough, for the NBA. And it is a relevant counterpoint to opposition based on the supposed inferiority of the level of play. --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:33, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This argument is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if an NCAA team can beat a Euro team that has players playing at the peak of their careers. Heck, Barcelona (Euro champ) beat the Lakers (NBA champ) a couple of years ago in a preseason game (that was rejected at ITN). The only criteria we should follow is ITN's, and not make up criteria on "tier 1/tier 2", if one team can beat the other, it's only played in North America, etc. – H T  D  03:42, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose I remain opposed to the posting any college-level sport that is not the premier expression of the discipline in question. I just don't believe that this represents anything outstanding. And frankly, we should not use page hits as a justification for posting anything; Wikipedia is not a source. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:43, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's arguably more popular the the NBA which gets posted every year. College sports in the SA are just as well-known as their professional counterparts. YE <font color="#66666">Pacific  <font color="#66666">Hurricane  12:51, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. We go through this debate every year. Categorically oposed to college-level sports. NBA is enough. --Tone 11:29, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * support. There's a lot of willful ignorance from people here who fail to see how significant the event is here in the US.  Hot Stop     (Talk)   12:08, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support because basketball is cool. Unlike (American) Football. --85.211.120.118 (talk) 12:48, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Major sporting event. We post tier 2 football (premiere league) so we can post this too. --IP98 (talk) 13:18, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Premier League isn't second tier. There's a clue in the name. Formerip (talk) 13:21, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The sorta similarly named Major League Soccer isn't second tier either but that's not listed... – H T  D  13:32, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Isn't the UEFA Champions League (ITN/R) the top tier? Or the UEFA European Football Championship (also ITN/R) is top tier? Or maybe the world cup is top tier? Or maybe everything in association football is top tier? --IP98 (talk) 13:34, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Depends on how to define "top tier", apparently. What's definite is that "NCAA Division I" is the top tier of college basketball, a variant of basketball that is different from basketball played elsewhere. Until the early 1980s, NCAA basketball was "top tier" throughout the world. American college beat regularly beat "amateur on paper" European players. (The NBA was "outside the tiers," if that made sense.) When Michael Jordan from UNC graduated it went downhill from there... – H T  D  13:38, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * So NCAA Division I is the top tier of the "NCAA League", and the NBA championship is the top tier of the NBA League. Post it up! --IP98 (talk) 13:41, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yep. Just as the Premier League is the top tier in England, same thing for Thai Premier League is the top tier in Thailand... – H T  D  13:46, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This is a sneaky way to search for a loop in football, but please don't use it when you don't understand simple things about the sport. Even if we consider that you're right, football is much more popular sport than basketball (not to mention college basketball if you regard it as a different sport) worldwide. The conclusion of the "NCAA Division I" with all the arguments presented here in terms of media coverage and impact on the sport culture in the United States would be similar with those of the 2012 Football League Championship play-off Final. Fortunately, the users from England and Wales (countries with teams involved in the league-system) were not insolent as their colleagues from the other side of the ocean to demand inclusion of something which is bellow the top-class competition in the sport. We even don't post the conclusion of the FA Cup which is the oldest football competition in the world and a significant landmark in the culture of the countries involved. To be clear, I don't live in the United Kingdom nor in the United States.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 14:01, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Per WP:POPULARITY the argument "football is a much more popular sport" has precisely zero value. So we'll throw that argument out now. We have a please do not above about complaining when an item only relates to one country, so we'll throw that argument out too. Next, we post multiple football championships, each one important in some category or other. So I "don't understand the sport", fine, clearly you don't understand basketball. The NCAA Division I mens championship is very important in NCAA. It's widely covered in the press, and is, as this section would require, "In the news". --IP98 (talk) 15:37, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:POPULARITY is part of an essay, not a policy, and deals with notability issues for retention or deletion of articles, so that argument is totally specious. Kevin McE (talk) 15:58, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I understand basketball perfectly, but don't understand college basketball. Please tell me what the game looks like and what are its rules. Unfortunately, my manual of sports in the English language is of poor quality and doesn't list college basketball among sports like football, basketball, handball, rugby, ice-hocky and others nor mentions that there is a such variety of basketball played anywhere in the world. Sorry but Wikipedia is not place to promote everything that originates from the United States. Like it or not, the English Wikipedia is not Wikipedia of the United States.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 15:47, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This (NCAA basketball) is broadcast on CBS, a terrestrial TV station. The Football League play-off final is on Sky Sports, and I can't quite make out on its article on how people get that channel. It says terrestrial but is on channel 401 with an audience share smaller than The CW's... – H T  D  14:22, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The NCAA tournament finale was broadcast (live) on ESPN Europe, which is available in dozens of European Countries. That shows that the game was of interest to enough people in Europe to justify broadcast, and thus not just of interest to North America.--ThaddeusB (talk) 15:28, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Do you have any statistics that provide information about how many people watched the game in Europe? The fact that it was broadcasted on ESPN Europe doesn't mean that it was of wide interested without any figures indicating it.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 15:58, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Such information (most likely) will not be available for several days in many cases (it would be released on a country by country basis by Neilsen ratings equivalents. --ThaddeusB (talk) 19:18, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Then, you should refrain from using arbitrarily chosen arguments unsupported with a relevant set of numerical values behind it. I can tell you that some European channels broadcast handball in the United States which doesn't mean that the sport is of wide interest in the country.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 02:00, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Do "youth" tournaments get massive coverage on the countries where they are based? For example, how is the FA Youth Cup TV coverage going? Its article doesn't even mention on what channel it's airing. Compare this to $11 billion contract between the NCAA and CBS for 14 years; I don't think FIFA earns this much on all of its youth tournaments combined. This year's NCAA final had 21.57 million (out of 310 million) viewers (or around 7%). The only country where youth tournaments are followed with a similar level of interest is the Philippines: the 2012 finals had a rating of 8.3% (and it didn't even win its timeslot lol). – H T  D  16:26, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "ESPN America also shown the Little-League World Series from Williamsport, PA and the Nathan's Hot Dog Eating Contest from Coney Island in Brooklyn, NY." From the ESPN America article (which is the name of the channel shown in Europe, and is redirected to from ESPN Europe). Presented without further comment. MChesterMC (talk) 15:48, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Nominate what you like. From what I can tell, The Football League is below The Premier League, and they're otherwise the same class of football. College and professional basketball meanwhile are distinct. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:14, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You're right. Please read what's inside the brackets in my comment. If you regard college basketball as a different sport than basketball, then this nomination falls far bellow any other sport-related nomination and should be even considered a snowball.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 14:21, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * We don't regard the UEFA Champions League a "different sport" than "football", so, no, we don't regard NCAA basketball as different. Just another important, widely covered, widely televised tournament in a globally popular sport. --IP98 (talk) 15:38, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I might be just grasping at straws here but, what the hey - why isn't there a complete reform of the conditions for posting sporting events? Anybody? --85.211.123.168 (talk) 15:42, 9 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose College sport not notable enough to be in ITN. Will someone post Tier 2 Championships of Rugby, Cricket, F1, Hockey as well? The event is not featuring outside US/Canada. Why someone in India/Japan/Austrlia/Brazil bother about a college sport? Regards,  theTigerKing  16:42, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Good question. Even better question: Why would someone in China, Indonesia, USA and Brazil bother with the tier one competition in cricket Cricket World Cup? – H T  D  16:51, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Because they suck at it? --85.211.123.168 (talk) 16:59, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Like has been said before, locality does not matter. Why do people keep using the WP:ITSLOCAL argument? Also college basketball is not "tier 2" compared to professional, especially considering that through third year of college, players aren't eligible for the NBA. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:11, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Can the people here agree nobody really has the right to decide what is tier 2/1 and what isn't? Jesus. --85.211.123.168 (talk) 17:34, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support as this is definitely significant enough to mention here. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C • Sign AAPT) 17:39, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * For what it is worth, an article from The Guardian: "the largely untold story is that the NCAA tournament is growing in popularity in Europe among basketball and sports fans" "Another reason for the increased popularity is the rise in the number of Europeans playing in the tournament. A total of 41 countries is represented in this edition of March Madness, with 19 European nations having players in the Big Dance." "FIBA Europe, even commissioned a preview of the tournament for its website," --ThaddeusB (talk) 19:47, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm genuinely finding it hard to workout whether that's cited in support of the nomination or against it. I'm guessing support, but... Formerip (talk) 20:48, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Neither really (as pointed out by many, the event's level of importance to Europeans is not really relevant. Just thought it was interesting. --ThaddeusB (talk) 22:48, 9 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - The tournament is a major news story in the US, with significant coverage lasting for weeks. While I do not know if it is a major news story in any other country, I think that something that is a news story of this magnitude in one country is generally appropriate for ITN (and I would likewise support listing events with a smiliar level of coverage in other countries besides the US).  I'd also like to comment that I find it baffling that people regularly oppose college sporting events with reasons like "it's college sports", "the players are amateurs", or "not the highest skill level of the sport".  None of that has anything to do with the criteria for including something at ITN.  Either the event is a major news story getting widespread coverage or it isn't.  Opposing on the grounds that you think the event hasn't gotten widespread enough coverage seems reasonable to me (even though I personally support listing this), but opposing because of who is participating and what their skill level is just seems nonsensical. Calathan (talk) 21:25, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Most obvious oppose And why hasn't this been snowclosed yet? Not the highest level in the sport, and not even professional. Why are we even discussing this? Fgf10 (talk) 21:45, 9 April 2013 (UTC) And to add, might be a good idea to set up a sort of reverse ITN/R about stuff that won't get posted, first nomination of course being all amateur university sport matches. Fgf10 (talk) 21:57, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's only amateur and university because the US doesn't have professional development leagues for the pre-top levelers like the rest of the world, or even North American baseball (all North American top-level baseball teams have player development teams to about 8 levels deep, and they only start at age 18, unlike soccer teams like Manchester United or Santos which have teams all the way down, to 10 year olds or something (or 5?)) The top basketball and gridiron leagues are using the colleges to train their players for them, do all the work, spend up to 40 million dollars a year on them, pay their tuition and then give them away after 3 years. The NBA/NFL (top league) players all go to college. Yes, America is weird like that. They probably throw tutors at many of them to get them to keep a D average and the 1/5th of a degree a year advancement rate necessary to not be kicked off the team, and they all pick easy majors like American culture studies when they grew up there (seriously!, that's probably only useful outside of America), African American studies when they're black, or maybe Spanish when it's their first language. Also, America has this weird thing where they pretend they're there for the college and not for the NBA so they're not supposed to be paid. The coaches can be paid millions a year, though. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 03:13, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You've provided a good explenation of why is US education system becomes a joke when sport is involved, and I thank you for that. But I still see no reasons to post? You say yourself that it is only a development league. Fgf10 (talk) 06:39, 10 April 2013 (UTC)


 * It's been posted 2 of the last 3 years and has more support and opposition, so a SNOW close would be ridiculous. --ThaddeusB (talk) 22:48, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You know as well as I do that ITN can be a joke sometimes when it comes to US specific topics, they will get posted in the US daytime, the US members will pile on a load of support, and they get posted before the rest of the world wakes up and has a chance to go "Hey, wait a minute there!" Fgf10 (talk) 06:39, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Both were posted after LONG discussions, so you are way wrong. And or the record, the "joke" is that US topics are always given a hard time by editors such as yourself when comparable topics fly through for other countries (not talking about this nomination, but rather things like school shootings, politics, business stories, etc.) --ThaddeusB (talk) 15:19, 10 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment. Much of the support comes from the fact that this tournament is OMGHUGE in the US.  I don't disagree with that, but practice has been that not the top level = not posted. I might compare it to the World Junior Hockey Championship, which is massively huge in Canada - and is a world tournament - but has no hope of posting absent something ridiculous happening. Resolute 22:20, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I would support the World Junior Hockey Championships. --ThaddeusB (talk) 22:48, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * (A) All the opposes are OMGNOTAMATEURSPORTS and (B) why do people always make comparisons to items that are never nominated, like World Jr. Hockey?   Hot Stop     (Talk)   02:22, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - Just to let people know, as of right now there are thirteen (13) "support" votes and ten (10) "oppose" votes...in case anyone was curious if there were more support votes or oppose votes. Andise1 (talk) 00:10, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * And we can strike the opposes that were based on locality, which is explicitly a 'do not' in ITN !voting. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:26, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Or we can strike the supports saying that "basketball is cool" or "per above". Please don't be offensive against those voting with oppose since there is equal way to eliminate all the supports because they use something similar as argument.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 01:24, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You can strike an IP vote for saying it's "cool", but ITN rules say that being relevant to only one country, which this isn't by the way, isn't a valid reason to oppose. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:21, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment It's very interesting to point out the situation that we're facing in the discussion right now. Please choose between the following two: (1) the NCAA is a basketball competition or (2) college basketball is a distinct sport from basketball. In case of:
 * (1) is supported, then we cannot support the competition because it doesn't represent the top-class in the region where it comes from (any further explanation would not be necessary);
 * (2) is supported, then the competition apparently represents something different, but the sport solely is not popular anywhere in the world outside the United States (not sure about Canada) and thus is far from being a significant one to warrant inclusion (anywhere else where college basketball is played? or any national teams in this sport?).


 * But the most irritating thing is the "hybrid theory" that is apparently bubbled by some of the users to claim that this is significant by selecting all the arguments underlining the two possible outcomes and pooling them together to prove that this is really different than what the others may think about it. And yes, some people are really persistent to wave something by using arguments that can support only the opposite. Pretty strange indeed, isn't it?--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 02:00, 10 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The most irritating thing is people with no concept of something's significance dismissing the game because the players aren't paid, when that criteria isn't found anywhere in the ITN's guidelines.   Hot Stop     (Talk)   02:22, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Neither "isn't top level" or "being popular in only one place" require anyone to oppose it as you insinuate. Sometimes things have cultural significance that can't be measured by such simplistic yardsticks.  I would call it "pretty strange" that "some people" can't understand that. (BTW, we list 2 European basketball tournaments when no one would argue that basketball is more popular/higher level in Europe than the USA.) --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:10, 10 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose: ITN items are supposed to be of interest to a wide audience. An event like the NBA generates such wide interest worldwide. A world championship/series of a sport can be considered something of wide interest as fans of that sport would likely follow it even if it's not popular in their own regions/countries. But a college-level sports event? Despite the hype in the US, is there any significant interest in this elsewhere? Just because the event is of wide interest in the US doesn't mean it's of wide interest to the general Wikipedia audience. Chamal T •C 04:23, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's already been pointed out that the NCAA championship is of a wider interest than the NBA championship. Ryan Vesey 04:49, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, but unless I've missed something in the discussion, the statistics are from the US audience. There's no question that the NBA is popular all over the world, but I don't see anything near that level of interest or coverage for this. While the NCAA is certainly popular in the US, that popularity is limited to the US only as far as I can see, and I'm not comfortable with supporting something like that on ITN. Chamal T •C 05:14, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Please read the instructions above, specifically "complain about an event only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one. This applies to a high percentage of the content we post and is unproductive." Actually, several opposers need to read that section.    Hot Stop     (Talk)   05:47, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you Hot Stop, I've already read that. If you read my comments, you will see that I'm opposing based on the lack of interest outside the US (which therefore is not an "event of wide interest" for the general Wikipedia audience IMO) and not simply because it's only relating to the US. Chamal T •C 05:53, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That rule is generally applied to US sporting events, but when it comes to sports with far wider appeal that doesn't include the US (I'm thinking cricket and handball here, for instance) it is often conveniently forgotten......Fgf10 (talk) 06:31, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You were apparently not around when 2 "amateur" Gaelic games events were posted every year. Gaelic games? WHAT'S THAT? Heck even Upin & Ipin played basketball. – H T  D  07:01, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * In that case the amateur aspect does not matter, as they are the highest tournaments in the respective sports. However I would have been opposed for lack of notability for those, notably smaller sport than many of the other sports used as examples here. (Once again, the continued opposition against posting cricket items comes to mind. Fgf10 (talk) 07:51, 10 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment It's time for me to retire from the discussion because of the lack of time. However, thank you for participating and please don't get insulted from anything. It's still the way we use to discuss some disputable issues on Wikipedia. At the end, I'll be content with every solution that should be made concerning the nomination.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 06:53, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Can someone tell me what the ITN criteria is, so I can make a checklist to see if this passes anything? – H T  D  07:01, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sure, they are ITN, to translate that text into different words, something needs a) a substantial update and b) be significantly in the news. The way we decide if a & b are met is that we have a discussion where people judge the update and the prominence of the story, and vote "support" or "oppose" based on whether or not the item met the two criteria.  -- Jayron  32  12:28, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - The major criterion for ITN is its worldwide significance. One simple test would be the news being referred in major news outlets around the world, the other test would be intuitive something which affects a large swathe of people. An US college basketball tournament which has achieved little attention outside US does not really count as ITN stuff.LegalEagle (talk) 13:57, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * By your own criteria it passes: Guardian (UK), Le Parisien (France), AGI (Italy), RBC (Russia), China Daily, Hearld Sun (Australia), Globo (Brazil), El Tiempo (Columbia), El Mañana (Mexico), CBC (Canada)
 * Only Africa and India don't have easily findable stories about the event online, among areas I searched. --ThaddeusB (talk) 16:02, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "Worldwide significance" has never been a part of ITN's criteria. Same with "top tier of the sport" and "no amateurs allowed". The last time something like that was a part of the criteria was when the clause "International importance or interest" was there. Now it's not there anymore... – H  T  D  14:04, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You are right when you say that 'worldwide significance' is not the criterion - one of the criteria is 'significance of the development' however to objectively test what would be a significant development we have to definitely look at the impact of the incident on a global basis, one subjective way to do this is to see if news outlets in the major countries have published the news. This news on basketball win does not (as researched by ThaddeusB) feature in Indian subcontinent, Africa continent and (from my flimsy google search) China. So numerous media outlets serving close to half of the world population seem to deem this news as insignificant. I leave the rest to your judgement.LegalEagle (talk) 10:28, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * There's a Chinese news source Thaddeus provided above. China (incl. Taiwan) is a basketball-mad country, so there's no reason absolutely no news source is not reporting this. Here's a news report from Taiwan. With that said, it's quite hard to get African news sources on most news events. India's understandable, though. Also, even if we've provided one news source from every country with a population of 1 million or more there'll still be some comments similar to yours. 10:59, 11 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Status? Is this really going to wither on the vine due to a number of opposes that complain that this isn't of worldwide interest? The significance has been clearly established in this discussion, with users such as Jayron and Thaddeus making the case in a much stronger way than I did. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:29, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Not an admin, but I think this a good example of WP:VOTE. YE <font color="#66666">Pacific  <font color="#66666">Hurricane  16:03, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeed. I do home than an admin comes by and takes notice of this. I will also be submitting a proposal to add this to ITN/R so that hopefully it gets posted from hereon out without the off-topic discussions and locality opposition that's taken place here. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:26, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If there is not a clear support here you will be lucky to get one there. AIR corn (talk) 05:48, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose, again. This comes up several times a year, and I oppose on exactly the same grounds every time. This is not the top level of the sport, it is an amateur competition open only to current students at a particular subset of US colleges. The (frankly bizarre) interest shown by American alumni and media does not change that fact. There is also zero international interest, in this domestic league. Very few domestic leagues are ever posted, and only those where it can justifiably be claimed to be the top league in the sport, with massive international interest (e.g. NHL, NBA, Premier League). None of the NCAA events comes close to the significance required for posting. Please can we stop nominating them. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 12:04, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * All what you said has been very wrong. It may sound good, but it is wrong. Kinda OT, but can someone find stats of which country gets the most WP views? It good help with debates like this. YE <font color="#66666">Pacific  <font color="#66666">Hurricane  12:46, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Recent Death: Sara Montiel

 * Oppose I see no evidence in her article, or in her article on es.wiki, that would lead me to conclude that she would be said to be "widely regarded as a very important figure in her field." Kevin McE (talk) 00:13, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) "After her unprecedented international hit in Juan de Orduña's El Último Cuplé in 1957, Montiel achieved the status of mega-star in Europe and Latin America." 2) "Montiel was the most commercially successful Spanish actress during the mid-20th century in much of the world." 3) "Her films El Último Cuple and La Violetera netted the highest gross revenues ever recorded for films made in the Spanish speaking movie industry during the 1950s and 1960s." 4) "She was the first woman to distill sex openly in Spanish cinema at a time when even a low cut dress was not acceptable." Andise1 (talk) 00:22, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Popularity (of films she was in, not necessarily of her) and courage of directors of films she was in ≠ importance in her field. Where are the awards?  Is she among the 100 most important actors in the world alive as of yesterday morning? 500? 1000?  Kevin McE (talk) 08:59, 9 April 2013 (UTC)


 * No opinion one way or the other, but this would need a good bit of work to be ready to post. The article's only reference is a music video on YouTube. --Bongwarrior (talk) 00:30, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with this. I've read the article and one or two articles about her death, and it suggests she may be worthy of adding to RD. But, the page needs considerable work. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:09, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong support for RD, if not blurb. This is front page news (litterally as both print copies of the Spanish newspapers in Miami has her death as the front page news), All over the Spanish media this is front page news, bigger than Thatcher death. Telemundo just did a special discussing her career. Probably the most beloved and famous Spanish film actress in history. When it is mentioned that "She was the Spanish star with the greatest international impact until the arrival of Javier (Bardem) and Penelope (Cruz)" in the associated press it is huge. But considering she was a Spanish actress, the article naturally isn't in strong and needs some work before being ITN worthy. Let me see what I could do in my limited time. Secret account 02:25, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * What? According to her article, she hasn't performed except in cameo since 1973. Nine Teen Seven Tee Three.  Of course, I think that nevertheless both she and Funicello are valid nominations. μηδείς (talk) 02:51, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Leaning support based on the persuasive arguments above; however, the article has ZERO chance of being posted without massive referencing improvements. --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:57, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately this seems to be yet another die-on-the-vine don't-expect-me-to-follow-up nomination. μηδείς (talk) 03:35, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You could fix some of these "unfortunate" nominations yourself rather than repeatedly whining about them? The Rambling Man (talk) 12:27, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Annette Funicello for RD

 * Support Annette Funicello for inclusion on RD, although I also agree that she is not quite significant enough for an actual blurb on ITN. Kurtis (talk) 19:41, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - I'm not seeing how those achievements are significant, but I'm happy to be corrected. AlexTiefling (talk) 19:41, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose like Alex, I'm not quite sure how a few movies, a few commercials etc would make this person significant enough to feature here. Was she noted as one of the best in her field?  And per Alex (again), happy to be corrected, as I am personally entirely unaware of this person's existence, nor is her passing noted in any major news source I use (outside the US outlets).  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:46, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The BBC announced her death, despite their apparent determination on wall-to-wall Maggievision, so I'm guessing there's something here that I'm missing. (If, for example, these peanut butter adverts have a cultural and career significance like Anthony Stuart Head's coffee commercials, that would be a start.) AlexTiefling (talk) 19:48, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Not the UK version of the BBC News homepage, just Maggie there, no sign of this individual. Still not sure that "Beach party films" and "peanut butter commercials" and death after a long illness make this person "in the news".  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:51, 8 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support for ticker Check out Beach party film. Frankie and Annette are/were the face of that genre. I'd say that's just enough cultural impact to pass. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:47, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support RD assuming update--should be great reader interest. μηδείς (talk) 19:57, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support for RD as the first Disney name who was publicly known as a star in her own right within her field. Before Funicello, the main Disney figures were known because of the obvious: artwork, voicework, publicity agents, and so forth. Also it could be argued that her battle with multiple sclerosis made the public more aware of that deadly disease, like Lou Gehrig with ALS. Secret account 20:14, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, I'm still not seeing worldwide (or even nearly worldwide) coverage of this individual, many people have died after lengthy battles with degenerative diseases and I haven't seen this individual mentioned ever before the UK press, of course, I'm not saying that because I've never heard of her she's not notable, but this is called "in the news" for a reason, not just "in the news in the US". Maybe some serious worldwide sources would help? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:23, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose, no real sense achievement other than being a national star. Today Mikhail Beketov also died, who reflects much more significant and not "light" situation in Russia. Egeymi (talk) 20:58, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * So nominate him. --IP98 (talk) 21:12, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for advice. Egeymi (talk) 21:41, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose She may have been popular and widely recognised (like Clive Dunn, Richard Griffiths or Richard Briars for those of us in the UK: ) but this is the nature of actors who occupy a corner of our living rooms every week. It does not mean that he (or the three unposted UK actors named) were at the top of, or outstanding in, their profession.  There must be well over 100 better known actors, possibly several hundred: how many RD worthy actors do we believe there are out there? Article gives evidence of no important awards, and her popularity was apparently never so great as to be a launch platform for enormous record success. Kevin McE (talk) 21:33, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Blank The sole issue here is, does listing a blank space in RD serve our readers better than Annette Funicello. Those voting "blank space" have the wrong priorities.  And if that Russian guy is worth nominating him, do so.  I am pretty sure we have essays on other stuff. μηδείς (talk) 21:50, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You would have to run a RfC for the discontinuance of ITN/DC before seeking such a policy change. Kevin McE (talk) 23:29, 8 April 2013 (UTC)


 * No full blurb nomination? Formerip (talk) 22:52, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment can we please stop with sarcastic references to Roger Ebert? --IP98 (talk) 23:28, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support RD, Oppose Blurb Reaction from Bob Iger helps establish ITN/DC #2. --IP98 (talk) 23:28, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The CEO of the company that she worked for said, in a sympathy statement, that she was "a cherished member of the Disney family": that is proof that she was " widely regarded as a very important figure in her field." As I ask above, if the threshold sits this low (no awards at all according to her article) then how many thousands of actors are we considering RD worthy? Kevin McE (talk) 23:44, 8 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support Per Medeis, I feel that we can be more liberal in our inclusion of recent deaths when we have few posted. Ryan Vesey 23:38, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak Oppose per Kevin McE. However, article is in good shape (solid referenced content adequately describing her life).  Spencer T♦ C 01:21, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose. I don't think she had enough noteworthiness in her own field to be listed; as KevinMcE said simply being on TV every week (especially during a time when there were fewer choices of what to watch) isn't enough. 331dot (talk) 02:29, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * At least be honest. She wasn't simply "on TV every week".  She was the lead female of a top rated show, and the lead of a series of very well performing films.  By the way, I have nothing but contempt, personally, for the formats under which she performed, and absolutely no personal interest in her or her work.  But I am not unable to discern that others loved her.  We should be basing our judgments on user interest, not our own 'higher' judgment. μηδείς (talk) 02:47, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That would require a rephrasing of ITN/DC. We have importance in the field as a criterion, not popular interest. Kevin McE (talk) 09:02, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Hardly, there are no more important beach movie or child actors than her. μηδείς (talk) 23:32, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, is she really more "important" a child actor than Shirley Temple, Macaulay Culkin, Jodie Foster, etc....?!! I think not. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:42, 10 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose per above. Wizardman  04:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Margaret Thatcher

 * Strongest possible oppose - she stole my milk! (OK, this !vote hasn't got a snowball's chance in hell, but I wanted to get it off my chest). Mjroots (talk) 12:06, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to go ahead and post this as WP:SNOW. -- RA (talk) 12:16, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support is it more prominent to include in the blurb that she was the first female PM? (please don't reply with No, no, no!) Lemonade51 (talk) 12:09, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Margaret Thatcher dying, I mean. I'm indifferent about the nomination. Formerip (talk) 12:10, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support full listing. Was the longest serving PM of the 20th century, first woman, and had a significant influence both in her country and the world. Currently on front page of NBC News and CNN in large print. 331dot (talk) 12:11, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per Formerip. Sceptre (talk) 12:12, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong support, a major influential 1980s political figure other than Reagan, no doubt. Donnie Park (talk) 12:12, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support both the nomination and including reference to being the first female Prime Minister. NB: BBC source. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 12:13, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - This is the level of importance we really should be looking for when trying to decide on a full blurb vs. recent death listing. I don't think there is much question which is appropriate here. --Bongwarrior (talk) 12:14, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support undoubtedly Britain's most influential post-war prime minister. 3142 (talk) 12:14, 8 April 2013 (UTC).
 * Support Article in good shape, although not keen about the quote right at the top. Miyagawa (talk) 12:15, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support immediate posting as full blurb per "a highly significant event [...] may have a sub-par update associated with it, but be posted anyway with the assumption that other editors will soon join in and improve the article." --hydrox (talk) 12:19, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm neutral with regards to referencing the fact that she was Britain's first ever female Prime Minister. If everyone else wants to add it, go right ahead. Kurtis (talk) 12:21, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted. The update is there. --Tone 12:21, 8 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank God I said three Hail Mary's, so that should cover any need for an update. (Yes, I know she wasn't Roman Catholic, but I am sure she was a high church Episcopalian.) μηδείς (talk) 12:22, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support full blurb, but oppose mentioning her gender. That's not why people remember her, nor why she is such a polarising figure. However, the article should have at least a few sentences of reaction e.g. a quote from David Cameron, the Queen etc. Tons of media coverage, so that wouldn't be hard. Someone added it while I was typing this. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 12:23, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I like her glasses in the picture we have up there. It's an unusual look for her. Formerip (talk) 12:30, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * She looks good in a tie.--WaltCip (talk) 12:32, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * have to agree. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:31, 8 April 2013 (UTC) or else suggest deleting replacing entire article with a more worthy tribute]


 * BTW. Oppose mentioning her being female. Even though I hate her, she's known for much more and it would be a demeaning blurb. Formerip (talk) 12:33, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Too fast The article is barely updated! Per WP:ITN/DC In addition, the article must have at least a paragraph of prose about the person's death. We are not a news service, we don't have to get a scoop, it's not a damned race. --IP98 (talk) 12:40, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * At the time I stuck my comment above, there were two paragraphs with several references. Certainly enough to post. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 16:03, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * As you seem to have missed above and below, there are no rules at WP, standards, principles, or ethics either. μηδείς (talk) 12:52, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't project your own recent failure to demonstrate these qualities onto the site as a whole. AlexTiefling (talk) 12:54, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It does have a paragraph pertaining to her death, and I had actually attempted to update the article just as I was doing this nomination. So what's the point you're trying to make? I'm somewhat confused. Kurtis (talk) 12:46, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It does now, and looks ok, but when I posted a few hours ago it was very thin. The reactions section is now built out. I fully expect it to grow, and the article is a GA. It's not a big deal, but I just didn't see what the rush was. --IP98 (talk) 13:36, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Did you miss this part on WP:ITN? "A highly significant event [...] may have a sub-par update associated with it, but be posted anyway with the assumption that other editors will soon join in and improve the article." --hydrox (talk) 14:05, 8 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support RD, Neutral blurb post posting obviously. Not every former head of state will get full blurb, though we could argue that her influence in the UK and globally was significant "enough". Anyway... --IP98 (talk) 12:42, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * She was head of government, not head of state. AlexTiefling (talk) 12:52, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Technically, yes, but it's a constitutional monarchy, and for all intents and purposes the PM of the UK is the Head of State. --IP98 (talk) 13:37, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Government is about technicalities. :) The Queen is the head of state in the UK. 331dot (talk) 14:19, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * And we would likely post the death of the queen as well. I doubt, however, that we would post the death of any Governor General of Canada. I'm not trying to nitpick, just looking at it from an ITN point of view. --IP98 (talk) 15:03, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, the Governor-General is technically the representative of the head of state, not the head of state themselves. 331dot (talk) 15:06, 8 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - Regardless of the vehemence of feeling about her on both the right and the left, she was undoubtedly a figure whose significance for world politics in the 1980s reached far beyond this cold, wet island. AlexTiefling (talk) 12:52, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Just so everyone is aware, I did not post this comment. I was actually in the middle of adding a "death" section to her article just as I was posting this ITN candidate, but by the time I hit "save" there already was one. Every other attempt I made at editing the page was edit conflicted to oblivion. Kurtis (talk) 12:49, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No, it was Medeis making a point. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:56, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Seriously, why are you apologizing? See WP:EBERT. μηδείς (talk) 12:55, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Surely you mean WP:MEDEIS? AlexTiefling (talk) 12:57, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Jesus, are you quite done crying yet, Medeis? Resolute 13:11, 8 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Suggested reword The first female Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, Margaret Thatcher dies at the age of 87. The word "British" doesn't take into account that she was also the prime minister of Northern Ireland --Andrew 14:22, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * a) 'British' is the accepted demonym for the United Kingdom, and b) her gender is irrelevant to her record (love or hate her). <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 15:57, 8 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Just to chip in to opine against adding "first woman" or words to that effect. It's quite unnecessary (brevity is good) and doesn't sit right IMO. --LukeSurlt c 16:14, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Pablo Neruda exhumation

 * Oppose. Wasn't the consensus with Yasser Arafat's exhumation that only the result of the tests be posted? Abductive  (reasoning) 05:11, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you're right. I was involved in the Arafat discussion, but completely forgot about it. Withdrawing the nom until the results are declared.--<font color="#87A96B">xanchester <font color="#A40000">(t)  05:14, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Montenegrin presidential election, 2013

 * Support per ITN/R. Presidential election in a country is a very big deal and we've always used to post such news.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 08:21, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Updated and referenced: ITN/R (for now) means no need for pile on support. Marking ready as it is below such lengthy discussion that it could otherwise easily be overlooked. Kevin McE (talk) 09:40, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support as per ITN/R#Elections of Heads of State.LegalEagle (talk) 10:45, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted --  tariq abjotu  20:24, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Grand National

 * Support nice article, just hoping that someone has the time to fix the linkrot issues. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:44, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support; I hate horse racing, but the Kentucky Derby was posted to ITN, and this is ITN/R so it hardly matters anyway. --85.211.116.52 (talk) 20:51, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Not ready the "Race overview" section (the one presumed to be the update) has ZERO references. --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:42, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Referenced. And for what it's worth, the sections that were updated were as follows: "Race overview", "Finishing order", "Non-finishers", "Reaction" and "Broadcasting", so I think the update is more than adequate. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:14, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Cool, can we post then? It's quite a "cheap" update for us, and it would break up the series of death-related blurbs we have at the top there. LukeSurlt c 07:45, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Week Support it's on ITN and there is a sourced update (all be it only to one source).  LGA <sub style="color:#8B0000;">talk <sup style="margin-left:-4ex"> edits   08:13, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No, there are many updates, with many sources. Five sections of the article were updated, see above. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:17, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for adding references to that section, I am posting this now. Excellent job on the article --ThaddeusB (talk) 16:23, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Forced deletion of a fr.wikipedia article

 * Neutral. Navel-gazing is an issue, but I think that if this gets widespread coverage beyond France, it would be worth posting. Resolute 20:54, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Here is a List of news sources on the topic
 * Oppose - governments do stupid stuff all the time. This is a pretty minor example of such behavior outside of our world. --ThaddeusB (talk) 21:24, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Neutral. I'd like to see a little more coverage beyond France as well; I think it is potentially worth posting. 331dot (talk) 21:42, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Needs update Removing updated = yes per state of Direction centrale du renseignement intérieur. --hydrox (talk) 21:45, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Interesting, but not really "in the news" stuff, the article is already back up on the French Wikipedia. One wonders if that particular French government department has heard of the Streisand effect....  The Rambling Man (talk) 21:48, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose One article, already restored. Strange behaviour on the part of the French govt though, like, kinda dumb. --IP98 (talk) 00:47, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:SIGNPOST Ryan Vesey 01:11, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, this meets DYK criteria if someone wants to nominate it. Ryan Vesey 03:54, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * As a more frequent DYK than ITN contributor (it's a lot easier for my pet articles to get in there aside of here, despite the bigger amount of work, if that makes sense), let's stop the notion that DYK is ITN's consolation prize. I know it stays up there on a maximum of 12 hours vs. ITN's minimum of 5 days, but the processes and standards are different... – H T  D  04:30, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Who ever said anything about DYK being ITN's consolation prize? Ryan Vesey 04:34, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No one. I just said it has a "notion". This will fail ITN, and will pass DYK. Therefore... 04:40, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That has nothing to do with one being a consolation prize for the other, they're two entirely separate processes. DYK deals with new articles that meet a certain set of criteria, ITN deals with articles that are in the news. If you're saying that people should stop pointing articles to DYK if they don't meet the ITN criteria, I disagree with you.  In many cases, the article creator/nominator won't be aware that their article is eligible for DYK so it is good to point them there. Ryan Vesey 04:44, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That's what I exactly said, them of different processes. Although you have a point of the nominator not knowing about DYK, though. He might've gunned for ITN, with the article staying for 5 days, instead of DYK with only the top hook above the fold and staying there for 8-12 hours. I dunno his intentions, though, so... – H  T  D  04:58, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The English-language version of the article which was deleted from the French Wikipedia (ie. not the article nominated here) already has a DYK nomination, FYI, and this is being discussed at WT:DYK. EdChem (talk) 12:54, 7 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose Posting Wikipedia-related information to ITN has historically been a disaster; Signpost is the better location.  Spencer T♦ C 01:52, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:NAVELGAZING. Also, I can't find this as a major headline story anywhere.  A short blurb buried in the tech section seems to be where most major news sources are treating this.  -- Jayron  32  03:21, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:NAVELGAZING (really should exist). Separately, this is very shocking news. Which article? Why? How stupid are they? What's is the Foundation doing about it? Is there an appropriate thread open to discuss this? -- RA (talk) 06:28, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose A minor official got a bit carried away. A nasty experience for one individual, a rap on the knuckles for someone from his boss, and a fr.wikipedia page with tiny viewing figures is removed from public view for 24 hours.  A non-event.  Kevin McE (talk) 09:18, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support If this is just the sort of thing that happens all the time in the West then let's see an example of such minor actions by officials. This would be news if it were in relation to facebook or any other site--the fact that it happens to regard wikipedia, and hence "navelgazing" is irrelevant. μηδείς (talk) 10:46, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Minor worldwide significance, outside of Wikipedia. Seconding the recommendation that WP:SIGNPOST is a better place for this nom.--<font color="#87A96B">xanchester <font color="#A40000">(t)  04:05, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

New Lebanon PM

 * Comment New head of state is ITN material, typically. However, the updates are somehow thin at the moment. --Tone 22:13, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Theres several lines of sourced update in the bolded article (and the PM's article). Thats more than most postings..?Lihaas (talk) 09:06, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The only real update on this is the sentence "On 6 April, he got 124 of the 128 parliamentary votes to become prime minister and was consequently tasked by President Michel Suleiman to form a government." and that is uncited. Everything else is reaction cruft: most are direct quotes which were plainly copied verbatim from elsewhere. The article about person can be better without those, although it can be added to the government article, as those quotes are relevant there. The article on Barack Obama doesn't have other peoples' reactions during his 2012 election victory, although it did have a quote from him.... – H T  D  05:00, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * There are also other reactions and the update is bigger than thatcher (and others) when they were first posted.Lihaas (talk) 09:07, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Instead of reactions, can't we get an idea if ever these people reacting ever had a hand on this? He was almost unanimously voted as PM: did these people who reacted headed the political parties that supported him? Did they whip their MPs to vote for him? That's the type of information that we need, how it got to that point, not what they said after all is said and done. Actions speak louder than words. At this point, the reaction-heavy "updates" do nothing to the reader... – H T  D  14:30, 9 April 2013 (UTC)


 * This is a head of government, not head of state. The President of Lebanon is head of state. 331dot (talk) 22:39, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Bubo Na Tchuto

 * Oppose.  Very little coverage, does not deal in war crimes from what I see; just drug smuggling.  Wasn't acting in his official capacity as an admiral from what I can read.  Not much to the article, too. 331dot (talk) 21:47, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] India building collapse

 * Support. The article is in good condition, and the number of deaths makes the event notable. ComputerJA (talk) 15:58, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. good to see article developed so quickly. death toll makes it notable.--Wikireader41 (talk) 17:31, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. The article discusses the major point in a sufficient manner, the high death toll fulfils the notability criteria, global coverage, however we can wait for 12 hours for clearer estimate of death toll. LegalEagle (talk) 17:52, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Per notability. NO reason for it to wait for another 12 hours. Any change in blurb could be adjusted later. Regards,  theTigerKing  20:21, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmmm Building collapse in Tanzania, 36 dead, no comments at all in 5 hours after nomination, no opposition, not posted. Building collapse in India, 42+ dead, posted 4 1/2 hours after nomination.  Discuss. Kevin McE (talk) 22:14, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The Tanzania building collapse was ~15 dead at the time of nomination. That level of deaths is borderline, so perhaps people were hesitant to comment as they were neutral on it. I know I was (and supported when death toll rose). --ThaddeusB (talk) 23:18, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - I am still not convinced that building collapses are rare disasters, but I supported Tanzania which a similiar death toll, so I'll support this one as well. --ThaddeusB (talk) 23:20, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted. The article gives the death toll as 42–46, so I've user the wording "at least 42" in the blurb. --Bongwarrior (talk) 00:10, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * 71 people are dead. Can we update the blurb? Sorry, if its the wrong place to ask for blurb updation. Regards,  theTigerKing  06:14, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The article does not reflect that yet. The numbers should be consistent. But sure, we can update the number eventually. --Tone 06:58, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Updated the article with BBC reference. Regards,  theTigerKing  07:10, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * 72 deaths in total and now rescue operation is over. Please update it. Zeenews --Nizil (talk) 07:44, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * should read "72 deaths of which 26 are children"--S-d n r (talk) 14:15, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think we need to be that specific. If people want more information, they can click on the article.  Spencer T♦ C 16:55, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Roger Ebert

 * Support for main ITN. Worldwide famous film critic and cultural commentator. yorkshiresky (talk) 19:44, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support for main ITN. For the same reason above. Donnie Park (talk) 19:46, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support full blurb, not recent deaths, due to reputation and acclaim as film critic.--WaltCip (talk) 19:48, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Probably the most famous film critic and a decent article too.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 19:51, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * RD Support - Although he was an undeniably notable movie critic, I'm not sure that Ebert meets the level of significance that I require for a full posting. --Bongwarrior (talk) 19:57, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support RD - per above.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 20:04, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, wouldn't everybody agree that he is the most famous movie critic ever? Abductive  (reasoning) 20:06, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Happy to post as RD but it looks as if there's a certain appetite for a full blurb. Thoughts?  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:13, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support full blurb, or RD if that's what there's consensus for. I just saw this and came here immediately to support.  While obviously primarily famous in the US and Canada my guess is he was the world's most famous film critic at the time of death.--Johnsemlak (talk) 20:15, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * S for full blurb I would argue that he isn't arguably the best known movie critic ever (his partner Siskel being his only competition), I believe he is one of the most influencial voices in Hollywood over the past 40+ years. Plus, he and Siskel's "Two Thumbs Up" became household terms.38.100.76.228 (talk) 20:17, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - Full blurb, please...except I do have do admit bias living so close to Chicago. :) All of the Chicago news websites are leading with the story, though naturally his former employer, the Sun-Times, is likely to have the most complete information . --JohnDBuell (talk) 20:23, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * One sentence blurb or RD only. No reason to start a war over a film critic. --JohnDBuell (talk) 20:50, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Have suggested a blurb, can we check the quality of the update and the blurb is okay, then I'll post. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:27, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Comment so are we all happy for an RD mention? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:56, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support RD only as being a film critic unfortunately is not type of profession significant enough for a full blurb.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 20:28, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not ready for posting yet. The update is not nearly large enough to the article to warrant its posting, even for a death. Let's wait until we get some reactions.--WaltCip (talk) 20:30, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose full blurb. He sounds suitable for the ticker but, I'll be honest, I've never heard of him or "two thumbs down". Please try to consider the nomination from a worldwide perspective. Formerip (talk) 20:31, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Needs Update -- this has only two bare sentences that could make one good compound sentence. There's plenty in the press about his movie festival still being held and comments on his passing.  I have removed the RD designation since there is obvious support for a full blurb. μηδείς (talk) 20:32, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Pull as noted above. The article is not ready and there is no clear consensus to post a full blurb. I cannot get the point beyond speeding up the posting regardless of the discussion here.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 20:34, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "Pull"? Was it posted?  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:35, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Aha, I see User:Jayron32 updated ITN. I've undone that change based on the correct concerns raised here.  We can wait another half an hour while the article is suitably updated for a full blurb.  Not to mention the blurb selected was hardly encyclopaedic in my opinion, that's why we discuss these things before posting them.... The Rambling Man (talk) 20:40, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It should be noted that when posted, at 20:28, there was significant support for it. Most of the opposition came after that moment.  -- Jayron  32  20:43, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It should also be noted that we had no agreed blurb and the nomination template was just for RD. I was trying to gain a consensus for a full blurb but you posted anyway.  What's wrong with waiting half an hour?  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:46, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Nothing. You continue to be correct.  That hasn't changed, and I'm not going to concede that you were wrong here, so I don't know why you keep arguing, because you are still the one who is in the right.  This isn't a competition, you know.  It would be best to get this correct rather than to make it some kind of race.  -- Jayron  32  20:57, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * A full blurb? are you kidding me? Absolute shame on all of. What the hell is the point in RD then? His death is not wide-reaching or impacting.--85.210.110.120 (talk) 20:38, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The point of RD was to reduce the occurrence of the same old "Name dies at the age of..." blurb. But we left the door open for full blurb features when the case is exceptional, and this guy certainly deserves it. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  20:42, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "on all of" what? Sorry, please try to remain calm when commenting.  This sort of post doesn't help.  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:40, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This was posted: "Film critic Roger Ebert dies after a long bout with cancer." I'd hardly call that a full blurb. I might have amended it to say "Chicago-based American film critic Roger Ebert dies after fighting cancer for over a decade." I hate to come out grossly pro-american and offend people, but I think it's a matter of influence - he was highly influential to Hollywood, which is (for better or for worse) highly influential worldwide. If you think that that's too much of a pro-American bias, then I support the RD designation only. (stupid edit conflicts) --JohnDBuell (talk) 20:44, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support blurb as well. Certainly merits the mention. Also caution to wait a bit for the article to update. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  20:38, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose full blurb His death is not major world news with ramifications. The whole point of the RD ticker was to avoid such hooks. Whenever we have had discussion about what deaths might still merit a blurb in the RD ticker era, the threshhold has been much higher than this: it is quite ridiculous that we did not nailed down the level of distinction before RD started: even more so that we still have not done so. Full blurb in less than 45 minutes from nomination for a marginally known figure seems unduly hasty. But if full blurb used, please find another phrase: he did not have a "bout with cancer". Kevin McE (talk) 20:43, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * For the record, if support re-emerges for a full blurb, I've prepped a crop of a picture (I was doing this between the initial widespread support and the later pulling after people came by later to oppose, the time necessary to prepare the crop was when the consensus shifted). It's at File:Roger Ebert Crop.jpg.  -- Jayron  32  20:45, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * For the record, I'd asked for a discussion about a full blurb, and a few minutes later you went ahead and posted one without consensus on any blurb. Please be more patient.  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:48, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * For the record, you are correct, except for the bit about there not being consensus. At the time, in my judgement, there was consensus for a full blurb.  -- Jayron  32  20:53, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: Also someone should make sure to put him onto the list of deceased Wikipedia editors. --JohnDBuell (talk) 20:51, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * [Or possibly not, discussion in the talk archives is inconclusive if that was really him or someone just going by "REbert."] --JohnDBuell (talk) 21:01, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Go for it. --JohnDBuell (talk) 21:01, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * 'Comment, I'd just like to point out that when he said he was sick yesterday, his article views spiked to 42,240. It seems to me that this deserves full blurb status, but put it in RD while consensus continues to be hashed out. Abductive  (reasoning) 21:05, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * But that makes over 4700 pages viewed more frequently in the last three days. I don't think that really supports the full blurb. And don't cite the 800,000+ Twitter followers either, seriously, because how many of those actually regularly read his posts? I'm turning with the growing consensus, the greatest notability here is a) Chicago and b) the US as a whole, not the rest of the world. -JohnDBuell (talk) 21:14, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * On the BBC's front page. Abductive  (reasoning) 21:51, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:02, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted at RD. If further work is done and consensus gained for full blurb, no problems.  The Rambling Man (talk) 21:08, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support full blurb. Normally I see news of deaths and go "meh". This one actually caught my attention as the name was familiar to me. Meets WP:ITND #2, he need not meet criteria three (death has global significance). Ks0stm  (T•C•G•E) 22:14, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support full blurb. Probably the best known and most well-renown in his field, ever. Teemu08 (talk) 22:16, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Image? Can we get an image of Ebert? No offense to Soyuz TMA-08M, but that logo has been up for a while. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:23, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose full blurb per Kevin McE above. It's exactly for deaths like this one why the RD was established. Ks0stm: WP:ITND criteria always apply, for RD deaths as well. I don't think this is such a world-shaking event that it would warrant a full blurb under any circumstances. --hydrox (talk) 23:05, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Fuck the Standards This should not have been posted, it's not updated. And according to the RfC, nomiations that get votes for "either ITN or RD" count as votes for a full ITN blurb.  So if anything this should have gone up as a full blurb.  But fuck the rules. μηδείς (talk) 00:24, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That was uncalled for. 331dot (talk) 01:55, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Much of what Medies posts is uncalled for. From the April 2 sentence on, I count five sentences. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:14, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment. Page views for partial day 4/4/13 at 358,444. Abductive  (reasoning) 00:41, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, that's settled, then. It doesn't really need the further promotion of a blurb. Formerip (talk) 00:42, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * To use that reasoning in that manner would be akin to saying that we shouldn't promote any high-profile death at all. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  01:40, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It was a facetious comment. Going off hits is stupid in the first place, but especially so when the article has already been linked from the front page. Formerip (talk) 10:13, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support full listing. Probably the most notable figure in his profession; widely known and had a significant influence.  331dot (talk) 01:55, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - the death section should be expanded to include some reactions from notable people. When that happens,I am willing post as a full blurb (unless consensus changes) --ThaddeusB (talk) 02:15, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I just added two sentences on notable people who issued their reactions. I didn't quote any of them directly though. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:32, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Switching to full blurb per consensus to do so. --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:53, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * POV in blurb To say "Pulitzer Prize-winning" is too much US-centric since the prize is awarded in the United States to people from this country. I would sincerely appreciate more neutral blurb. Including prizes in the blurb is only possible if the prize is international and can be awarded to any person in the world (e.g. Nobel Prize, Pritzker Prize, Fields Medal etc.). Simple blurb like "Film critic Roger Ebert dies at the age of 70." would make more sense, as mentioning something that is limited to one country doesn't help too much in claiming his international significance.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 09:47, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The blurb really needs to incorporate whatever meager justification it can. Formerip (talk) 10:13, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Non-Americans are eligible and have won Pulitzer Awards. In any case the Pulitzer Prize has been worthy of mention on ITN and thus I think is worthy of mention in the blurb.--Johnsemlak (talk) 14:57, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support post Full Blurb consensusEven IMDB had been running the RD as a red colored flash in its home page for ore than 5 hours. Regards,  theTigerKing  20:25, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Strong oppose and remove as absurd! Really notable people are not posted, while an American obscure film critic I've never heard of is posted. Another example of blatant US centrism on the main page. Would we have posted the death of a film critic whose articles appeared in the Belgian newspapers? Danish newspapers? Russian? Chinese? French? No, of course we wouldn't. The posting of this article is a disgrace. Mocctur (talk) 23:57, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "I've never heard of him" isn't a valid oppose. And this is an en.wiki--Johnsemlak (talk) 02:20, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think "Mocctur never hearing of this" is a valid oppose, either. What you consider "really notable" might not be considered so by others, just as you don't consider Mr. Ebert notable. His reviews have been seen and read by tens of millions (many more than the population of Belgium), he coined the concept of "thumbs up" or down for rating films, has several awards and recognitions (a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, unusual for a film critic). 331dot (talk) 03:18, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * By tomorrow the article will exceed one million views over 4 days. Please note that the US rules the film industry of this planet, and Ebert was the best known critic of this trillion dollar industry. Abductive  (reasoning) 04:21, 6 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Neutral RD, Oppose blurb, oppose pull It's up now, it shouldn't be, but it is. Per WP:POPULAR page views is irrelevant. Claims of US-centrism are absurd. The best thing to do now is to push through 5 better stories and bump this off the bottom. --IP98 (talk) 15:39, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Page views should not be the sole criterion for an ITN posting; but they are an indication of a page that others are likely to want to read, per "help readers find and quickly access content they are likely to be searching for because an item is in the news"(from the ITN page).   331dot (talk) 15:51, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth (if someone is reading this looking for precedent or whatever) I quite agree with what IP98 says here, though I would have supported RD. Anyways, let's work on some other stories rather than worrying about this. LukeSurlt c 16:19, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Argentina flooding

 * Comment: The entire article, while meeting the content requirements, is based on only one source (albeit a reliable one, New York Times). While not trying to say that "The updated article must have X sources!!!", I think that there should be a couple others, if possible.  Spencer T♦ C 05:35, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yah, I was working on it, hence my "work is ongoing" comment... I probably should have just waited longer to nominate... Thanks for pointing out a couple good sources and adding the infobox.--ThaddeusB (talk) 06:37, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Added a few other news sources; these concerns are resolved.  Spencer T♦ C 05:43, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Looks good to go. Ready to post when I see some more support. --Tone 08:58, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Flood from record rainfall, with significant casualties for such an event. 331dot (talk) 10:35, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per above. Flood with such damages and casualities is a very big deal.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 10:48, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - definitly for itn.--BabbaQ (talk) 12:10, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posting. --Tone 12:33, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] RD: Ruth Prawer Jhabvala

 * Correction. Two Oscars. Support once updated. Formerip (talk) 22:05, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I knew that. ;) I've had a go at updating and expanding the article. Just in case it comes up, she was still writing before her death and her last story appeared in The New Yorker on 25 March 2013 . - <font color="Purple" face="Arial">JuneGloom  <font color="Green" face="Times New Roman">Talk  23:39, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support a person at the top of her field. --ThaddeusB (talk) 23:56, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose good update, long list of awards. Not seeing anything in the article which shows how she is "widely regarded as having a significant impact on her field". Being prolific != important. --IP98 (talk) 00:38, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Eh? She won two more Oscars than Alfred Hitchcock and the same number of Bookers as William Golding. Formerip (talk) 00:52, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * On the other hand, Anthony Burgess and Graham Greene won no Bookers between them. Dennis Hopper and Peter O'Toole have an honorary Oscar between them. It is terrible that she has died. But would every Booker be considered just because they won a Booker, Oscar likewise? Sometimes "a very important figure in his or her field" gets no awards at all. I think that is worth considering.

Why is this not posted? It is updated and has clear consensus. 00:27, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Member of the prolific and highly regarded 3-person Merchant Ivory film-making team. I was sad to see her name show up on my watchlist as recent death; others will want to read about her when the death notice appears on the main page. --Orlady (talk) 02:05, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support I was going to vote no, but the article is updated and the subject is quite interesting, and certainly notable for her accomplishments. μηδείς (talk) 02:06, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose per IP98. 331dot (talk) 02:41, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - Merchant Ivory have clearly had a significant and long-lasting effect on their field, which is a highly significant one (cinematic drama), and Jhabvala's exceptional record of awards is a reflection of that. AlexTiefling (talk) 11:19, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per June. -- Khazar2 (talk) 11:59, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per Alex and June. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:07, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Ready this is updated and has consensus. μηδείς (talk) 15:55, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment We need to be careful when posting an item under ITN/DC #2, that the article establishes how the person was "widely considered very important in his/her field". Many of the supports above rationalize her importance, but it isn't up to "ITN regulars" to decide. Jane Henson was part of the Muppets, but that wasn't enough. Ralph Klein was a loud voice in Canada, but got "Albertan provincial politics is not a big enough field...". Jerry Buss barely went up, even with numerous NBA owners and players calling his contribution to the league important. This woman won two academy awards and wrote some short stories. Where are the reactions from other screen writers? Coppola? The Coens? It's not up to "us" to decide who is "important enough" for ITN. This will go up, it has consensus to post, but it really shouldn't. --IP98 (talk) 17:22, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You say "It's not up to "us" to decide who is "important enough" for ITN." so who is it up to? I'm not sure we need a reaction from "Coppola" or "The Coens" to establish the fact that an Oscar-winning Booker Prize-winning artist has significant support here for ITN. If you think we need more people to contribute at ITN, that's an entirely different discussion. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:32, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Coppola and "The Coens" are Oscar-winning screen writers, so their reactions to her death, and their opinions on her impact on the field of screen writing are infinitely more important than yours or mine. I picked those names from a long list at Academy Award for Best Writing (Adapted Screenplay), any one would do. Same with fiction (booker or Pulitzer or whatever, some recognized authority in the field of fiction). The point is I don't think anyone here is qualified to determine if an individual is "widely regarded as very important in his/her field", without at least having some quotes from prominent participants in that field indicating that the person is important. --IP98 (talk) 17:44, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, so perhaps we need to change the criteria to state that the individual is "widely regarded as very important in his/her field by his/her peers"? The Rambling Man (talk) 17:48, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Who is qualified to determine a persons importance to their field if not their peers? --IP98 (talk) 17:52, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * What are you suggesting is the higher award than an Oscar for a screen play? The Nobel Piece Prize?  The criteria now are notability and an update, and we have those and consensus to post.  Of corse adding the Coens' or Coppola's comments can't hurt article, but they are not needed for the nomination. μηδείς (talk) 18:12, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * To IP98, yes, your answer matches my suggestion, you should seek to have the criteria changed to include "by his/her peers" if you believe the editors here are not qualified to determine the importance of an individual. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:31, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If "Coppola or the Coens", or anyone else, has a microphone stuck under their noses and are asked for their thoughts on the death of RPJ or anyone else who has recently died, basic good manners obliges them to eulogise with the result that such comments are not reliable as a measure of importance. Such comments rarely add substantial benefit to articles, as they are not measured and balanced comments. Kevin McE (talk) 18:35, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * shrugs The article doesn't establish explicitly how this person is widely regarded as very important in his/her field. A laundry list of awards may allow us to infer importance, but I don't believe we're qualified to do so. We don't agree, honestly I don't care. Regards. --IP98 (talk) 20:59, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeed, this deserves to be posted. Roger Ebert (whose recent death is posted) made a living writing about the work of people in her profession, and I bet he would have said she deserved a mention here:, ... (And what happened to the idea that ITN should endeavor for geographic diversity and inclusion of under-represented topics? Here we have an accomplished WOMAN who was at home on three continents -- and whose work spanned all three and the relationships between them, their people, and their cultures...) --Orlady (talk) 02:57, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. I don't understand why Ebert gets a full blurb while Jhabvala lingers in limbo. Espresso Addict (talk) 04:30, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted --  tariq abjotu  04:31, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Cold wave for sticky
Propose making the 2013 global cold wave a sticky (like Syrian War some time ago). 200+ deaths in India alone and multiple all-time temperature records set worldwide. Brandmeistertalk  13:33, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong Oppose We can't comment with high probability whether conditions for cold wave would sustain for remaining part of the year. Regards,  theTigerKing  15:20, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment I would possibly support individual stories, the cold wave could be mention in the blurb. --Tone 15:22, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose as sticky, but would strongly consider a regular blurb if one is proposed. --ThaddeusB (talk) 15:29, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose anything as this is not global as referred to in the article's title. For me living in Macedonia there is no dispersion compared to other years. Some news point that there are cold waves even with snowfalls in parts of Central and Eastern Europe, but it doesn't mean that Europe has been globally affected. As for the case with India, there should be separate article documenting the weather conditions only in this country and given the casualities and damages it seems worth supporting.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 18:04, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose sticky looking out ones window is an inadequate evaluation of a global event. 2013 global cold wave seems like WP:OR to me, chaining together a string of record cold temperature events in select locations. Honestly, I think maybe that article should be submitted for AFD. --IP98 (talk) 18:31, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I've gone ahead and nominated it at AfD per your comment. Ryan Vesey 02:36, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose. If there are specific examples of a major effect of this alleged cold wave (like large crop losses, or a large number of casualties/deaths, etc.) we can discuss ITN items for those specific examples.  331dot (talk) 19:39, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose anything It isn't global. It looks like a lot of OR. HiLo48 (talk) 02:25, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted]North Korea

 * Support - A mention about this in ITN is probably needed now.--BabbaQ (talk) 10:58, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Making news everywhere. An important development also. Regards,  theTigerKing  15:14, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, ready to post when I see some more feedback. The article is updated. --Tone 15:22, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - final something worth posting in seemingly endless series of "we want war" moves by North Korea. --ThaddeusB (talk)
 * Support - Now that's more like it. The narrative was that North Korea couldn't be going to war since they were still keeping Kaesong open.--WaltCip (talk) 17:14, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted. --Tone 17:31, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Try harder next time. Marcus Qwertyus (talk) 07:28, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

The bolded link should lead to the main article. Jmj713 (talk) 03:09, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] RD: Jane Henson

 * Question: Did she have an equal impact in creating the Muppets, or did Jim Henson have a much greater role?  Spencer T♦ C 05:07, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * In my understanding, which may not be 100% correct, it was 50-50 in the very early days. Jane then greatly reduced her activity to concentrate on raising the couple's children making Jim the primary force during the rise to popularity.  When the kids were grown, she re-assumed a more active role and after Jim's death in 1990 was the primary force keeping the franchise moving forward.  --ThaddeusB (talk)
 * Hm, I think the article needs quite a bit of expansion to be ready. If she is known primarily for her work on the Muppets, then the article does not do her justice (there is only one sentence about the Muppets in there).  Spencer T♦ C 06:21, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well I certainly agree with that - the article currently has little content of any kind. --ThaddeusB (talk) 08:13, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose as giving her too much credit is not necessary in this case. Wikipedia should rely on facts and sources about her career and notability, and not to be a place for contesting if it was 50-50 with her husband in the early years. Even if it's true that the two shared it equally, the world recognizes Jim Henson as the most important puppeteer and the only creator of the best-known product The Muppet Show. There is no notability here until someone proves what she would be specifically remembered for.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 09:55, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Kiril. 331dot (talk) 10:01, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose As per Kiril. Regards,  theTigerKing  15:09, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose, I'm slightly in agreement with Kiril here. Or more specifically, while I have no comment on what the 'world recognises', neither The Muppets or The Muppet Show mention her at all and as discussed above, her article barely mentions the muppets either. Nil Einne (talk) 07:25, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Arms Trade Treaty

 * Support Widespread international media coverage. First global treaty to regulate this major international issue. Neljack (talk) 01:02, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment I would suggest two minor amendments to the blurb: (1) insert "General Assembly" after "United Nations"; and (2) replace "ratifies" with "adopts". I think we ought to be clear about which organ of the UN was acting, and ratification is when a state becomes a party to a treaty. When the General Assembly approves a proposed global treaty, the language that is used is that it "adopts" it. Ratification by states still has to occur (but since the great majority have already voted for it I don't think we're jumping the gun in posting this, especially considering that there wouldn't really be a suitable alternative occasion for posting it because states will ratify it at different times. Neljack (talk) 01:08, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm sure you're right. I've put that wording in as an alt blurb. Thanks! – Muboshgu (talk) 01:38, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - major treaty affecting many countries. --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:32, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Is the scale of the vote, 154 to three, worth a mention? HiLo48 (talk) 03:50, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps. I adjusted the blurbs accordingly. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:02, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support, treaty of worldwide impact. Mikael Häggström (talk) 05:04, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support -per above supports, and commend improved blurb per HiLo48, whom I welcome back to ITN. Jus  da  fax   06:34, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support International news. I prefer the blurb rather than the altblurb. LukeSurlt c 11:22, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posting first blurb. Article is updated and there is consensus to post.  Spencer T♦ C 14:47, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Cypriot finance minister resigns

 * Nom --bender235 (talk) 13:00, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Removed all the off-topic discussions. Sorry everyone. Regards,  theTigerKing  15:09, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak Oppose The resignation of the minister is not a major event as the crisis itself. Moreover, the resignation would not effect the crisis as such. Moreover, suppose the government falls next, it would again make an ITN nomination. The event is though notable enough. Regards,  theTigerKing  15:09, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - the cyprus financial crisis is very notable, and it seems hasn't been posted here before. With the crisis being characterized by many small events (bank closure, negoations, deposit tax etc) it seems reasonable to highlight the crisis by reference to this resignation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.132.5.99 (talk) 16:35, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * In simple words, the resignation will not impact the crisis. We cannot post this blurb so as to compensate the fact that the crisis wasn't posted in the ITN. Regards,  theTigerKing  19:14, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * We are not compensating, we simply post the crisis. And where do you get from that this has no impact on the crisis? Look at the articles, the reasons for this resignation are severe and damaging to the political elite of the country, thus having an impact on the crisis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.132.5.99 (talk) 02:21, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose the closure of the bank and/or the passage of a bailout agreement were significant. --IP98 (talk) 18:34, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support I like that it links to 2012–2013 Cypriot financial crisis (could be the main link btw), the crisis has been occupying headlines for a while. Narayanese (talk) 19:35, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose In my opinion if the Prime Minister had resigned it would have been notable. LegalEagle (talk) 09:17, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose per IP98 and theTigerKing. 331dot (talk) 10:33, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Imatinib
Nom Evergreening of pharma patents has been undermined by the judicial decision, has huge impact on affordability of life saving drugs especially in developing countries, propels generics but arguably undermines innovation. LegalEagle (talk) 11:06, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * support but probably with an altblurb, seems fairly significant EdwardLane (talk) 12:50, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support An important judgement. Patented drugs could be sold by local companies without paying any royalty. Regards,  theTigerKing  15:37, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The judgment does not allow for patented drugs to be sold without royalties (though that is possible under compulsory licensing), the present judgment looks at whether adding a superficial change (for example a chloride of a compound which has lost its patent protection) to an already known compound grants new patent protection (the concept is known as evergreening). Novartis v UoI is also important in Indian context because it was a test case for various similar litigation scenarios. For a working details of the case pls refer to spicy IP. LegalEagle (talk) 20:05, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted. L Faraone  00:56, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment - that was fast... I'm not objecting per se, just noting that we usually wait until there are either more comments or more than 13 hours have passed since nomination.  --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:31, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed. And the blurb should at least attempt to explain why this is significant. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 16:12, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps start it off with "In a landmark ruling..."? <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  18:36, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * How is this a landmark ruling? The Indian Supreme Court accused Novartis of evergreening and told them to take their patent and shove it. Is this really a surprise? --IP98 (talk) 18:48, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose belatedly apparently. The Pharmaceutical_industry_in_India vs patents is an old story. Imatinib is an important drug, but the result of the suit isn't a surprise, and the results won't impact other cases. Compare to Diamond v. Chakrabarty which had much more important implications (or this. Anyway, I guess it's too late since this was posted, and there is no real reason to pull the item now. --IP98 (talk) 18:48, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * There is little doubt that Diamond v Chakraborty is a landmark judgment (it was held that living organism can be patented and has since been seen as a textbook standard around the world), the present Novartis judgment is important as it weaves a counter story where patent protection is denied for superficial modification to a compound in public domain. The case is important because firstly it elucidates on the practice of evergreening, secondly it differentiates between increased efficacy and incremental innovation, thirdly it draws a line/balance between public policy (especially in a developing country scenario) and monopoly rights and finally in Indian context the case challenged a new section in Indian patent act 3(d) [which has already been controversial with many claiming it is noncompliant of TRIPS]. This case would definitely impact other ongoing cases and many academic posts have already called this case as a template for future judicial pronouncements internationally on rejecting evergreening of pharma patents. LegalEagle (talk) 00:13, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose (Um, how does this get posted so quickly?) I'm not sure our readers would understand the significance of this given the blurb, and I'm certainly not sure this is even newsworthy. I suggest if we have any further opposition, we pull it.  Please allow a consensus to develop, not just act on two people's opinions within the space of four hours when 3/4 of the world isn't online.  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:02, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment This ruling is the culmination of Pharmaceutical_industry_in_India vs patents rulings as it is a Supreme Court ruling which is least likely to be challenged by Novartis. Its impact would be different but powerful as the one by Diamond v. Chakrabarty or Myriad_Genetics. I hope these articles help: NYT, WSJ, Guardian,UK, France 24, Bloomberg, Medical News, Doctors without Borders, Reuters, Scientific American. Also from the Novartis side. The purpose of giving references is just to help people understand why the judgement is a landmark in itself and what would be theimpact of the Union of India VS Novartis AG judgement. I also support the current blurb. How much time should be spent before ITN candidate is published is a Regards,  theTigerKing  19:22, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Forgive me, but I'm still struggling to see how this is newsworthy, sure it's published in a number of websites, but nothing "front page". Also, we usually wait for a definitive support rather than two in four hours and nothing.  But it's been posted, I'd suggest it's pulled but perhaps I'm on my own.  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:46, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Apart from finer legal arguments over how the case affects IP jurisprudence worldwide, cost of a certain life saving medicine dropped 20 fold and likely to have a ripple effect on a variety of other/similar drugs. LegalEagle (talk) 00:13, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Your comment has 4 parts:1) Notability of the event: I can go on and on with references from the leading and respected journals/news channel websites. If you want, reply a Yes to this comment and I will take the pain of mentioning them as well. 2) Front Page coverage: If one event is receiving umpteen coverage and has generated headlines, it must be big and worthwhile. Not necessarily front page in a few publications.3) Newsworthiness: If someone has the energy to go through the references, one can easily understand why the judgement is a "landmark" judgement("landmark was one of the reasons why you opposed previously"). No brainier needed. 4)Definitive support: I agree with you on this. The nomination should not have been posted too early. But it can't be a reason for pulling the entry out now without providing any logical justification. Regards,  theTigerKing  20:03, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Reply to TheTigerKing though I disagree with the phrase "landmark" (honestly was it any surprise that the Indian Supreme Court would rule against a US multinational?), it is published in a WP:RS. I base my support/opposes on the updated article, which doesn't elaborate on how this will impact other similar cases in India or the "developing world". I think that section could be broken up to a subsection (the April 1 2013 update is just hanging off a huge paragraph) and have some of the implications added. Or spawn a new article just for this case. In fact, I like that a lot better. --IP98 (talk) 20:24, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * A pertinent point has been raised, I would try and develop a stand alone article on the case in the next couple of days. LegalEagle (talk) 00:13, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Created article Novartis v. Union of India & Others, please help in expanding the reaction section and adding more references. May I propose that the blurb be linked to the new article rather than to Imatinib. LegalEagle (talk) 22:46, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I support connecting new article than Imatinib as main article.--Nizil (talk) 07:51, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * LegalEagle is right about this being a significant decision relating to evergreening. It has had the effect of Novartis India CEO declaring that it will no longer do research in India.  From a chemical perspective, the decision means that trying to patent a polymorph of a known substance is not patentable in the absence of evidence of efficacy, which cuts off an easy approach to evergreening.  It should (IMHO) be the legal position world-wide, but who knows if that will ever happen.  Evergreening is a massive waste of effort in research, distracting the search for genuine new medicines in favour of seeking trivial changes to generate additional profits from existing discoveries.  I oppose the suggestion to change the link to the new article, however, as the imatinib article satsfies ITN requirements and the new one is nominated for DYK.  EdChem (talk) 08:20, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

IBM Roadrunner
-109.158.167.134 (talk) 16:29, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose, it's about a decommissioning which is much less notable than the creation of a new record-breaker. Besides, the petaflop limit is "merely" a point on the decimal numeral system, with little impact in itself on the development of computer performance. Mikael Häggström (talk) 18:16, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Mikael. 331dot (talk) 18:27, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Possibility for RD? 128.42.220.53 (talk) 06:14, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * A computer is not a person, or even an animal. 331dot (talk) 09:21, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * We'll need to reconsider that on the day robots start to protest on the streets for the right to vote, but for now I think we can safely oppose an RD. Mikael Häggström (talk) 16:40, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If this had come out a bit earlier, then RD: Roadrunner would have made a good April Fools RD, but agree that putting a supercomputer in RD is stretching it a bit. Meep meep... ZOOM! MChesterMC (talk) 08:20, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose Oppose per Mikeal for blurb.*An interesting suggestion though for RD I would support it. Lets not restrict RD to people or animals always. Regards,  theTigerKing  15:16, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Possible April Fool's item?

 * Oppose as highly misleading. To say that someone has climbed Mt Everest is to say that they have reached the peak, not merely that they have climbed on the mountain.  Kevin McE (talk) 16:05, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Kevin; they need to get to the top. I'm also unclear on the April Fool's connection. 331dot (talk) 16:59, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The April's fool connection is the "highly deceptive" blurb as per Wikipedia tradition. --ThaddeusB (talk) 19:18, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That's not merely deceptive: it is a blatant untruth. Kevin McE (talk) 22:06, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No it's not. You can say it's "too deceptive" if you like, but climbing to base camp is indeed climbing Everest in a literal sense of the words (and takes quite a bit of effort I might add).  In fact, several news sources have used those exact words ("climbs Everest") in their headlines. "Summits" means reaches the peak; "climbs" does not, even if it is often used that way.  This is exactly the kind of "unexpected meaning" that a large %age of April Fool's DYKs rely on.    --ThaddeusB (talk) 22:22, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Regardless of the word choice, I still believe this person should get to the top to be noted here(if that's even their goal); there are many mountains of all sizes that are difficult to climb. 331dot (talk) 22:30, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No problem. I certainly would have not nominated this normally... I was only objecting to the "blatant untruth" claim, not the lack of posting. --ThaddeusB (talk) 23:22, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Burma's first private newspapers in 50 years

 * Support - perfect April Fool's item - notable, but unbelievable. However, I suggest more April Fool'sy blurb such as "Newspapers return to Burma after 50 year absence," --ThaddeusB (talk) 14:48, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Notable, regardless of April 1. --bender235 (talk) 16:07, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support Nothing April Fool Day about it at all: important stage in 'perestroika' of the country. In a formal tone, newspapers don't hit anything: they become available, or they go on sale. Kevin McE (talk) 16:11, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support You Western pig-dogs.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 17:22, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, significant move towards more openness in a country renowned for being anything but open. With ThaddeusB's blurb for the remainder of 1 April, a more formal one thereafter. I agree with Kevin that newspapers do not 'hit newsstands' (whatever one of those is). <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 18:58, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose blurb that falsely claims that newspapers have not been available. That is not merely misleading, it is a downright lie. Kevin McE (talk) 22:04, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * A newspaper stand? Every time new newspapers are delivered, they "hit" them audibly? – H T  D  19:03, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * 'Ready - article is now updated and ready for posting. --ThaddeusB (talk) 22:15, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Posted a slightly modified version of the alt blurb. --Bongwarrior (talk) 23:34, 1 April 2013 (UTC)