Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates/December 2012

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Hillary Clinton hospitalized

 * Note: I'm moving this entry to the day it was nominated. Also opposing on the grounds that little information is known about her actual condition, and I see no reason why this case of hospitalization should be listed and not Mandela, Thatcher or George Bush. -- Hazhk Talk to me 03:16, 2 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment - The instructions in the "How to nominate" section at the top of the page say "find the correct section below for the date of the event (not the date nominated) in UTC." I'm new to the ITN section, and I apologize for misinterpreting that instruction. Clinton is a sitting Secretary of State, which places here fourth in the line of succession to the presidency. By contrast, Mandela, Thatcher, and George Bush all retired long ago and play no active roles in government policy today. Besides, they (Mandela 95, Thatcher 88, Bush 87) are all much older than Clinton, who is a very vigorous 65 and, as noted in the nomination, is widely expected to stand for the presidency in the next election. Hospital admissions for the very elderly are less notable than for those who are younger, particularly in cases (such as those of Mandela, Thatcher, and Bush) in which the very elderly have previousy been hospitalized. Additionally, in Clinton's case, a number of political commentators have speculated in recent weeks that she was feigning an illness in order to avoid having to testify before Congress concerning the State Department's role in events associated with an attack on a U.S. consultate in Libya that led to the deaths of several Americans, including the U.S. ambassador to Libya; so the news confirming the seriousness of her condition is very timely. Dezastru (talk) 03:48, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * You didn't do anything wrong, and Hazhk's edit should have been reversed by an admin, but a more recent date is in your favor, so no harm, silly foul. μηδείς (talk) 04:50, 2 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose - Doctor's say that she's going to be fine. -- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 03:27, 2 January 2013 (UTC)


 * That information has been included in the article's update. (And the alternative blurb does emphasize that doctors say she is doing well.) That early prognosis, however, does not diminish the seriousness of her condition. Dezastru (talk) 03:53, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree, this really does sound serious and I'm quite concern about her future actions after suffering from a head injury, which resulted in something that almost sounds like a stroke. YuMaNuMa Contrib 04:13, 2 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose, but what is going on with moving this out of temporal sequence? μηδείς (talk) 03:30, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Pretty minor stuff, even the ever-pessimistic Irish News had this as being all cleared up with no actual damage. GRAPPLE   X  04:01, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Oh well, how sad, never mind. Not the kind of story we would ever put on the front page, and with good reason doktorb wordsdeeds 09:03, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Even assuming she is going to run for POTUS (which is by no means certain and she says she isn't) she isn't running yet; we don't generally post the medical conditions of lower government officials. She's also headed for a recovery it seems so this news is minor at best. 331dot (talk) 10:34, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Fiscal Cliff

 * Support This has been big news for a while. Although it's possible the parties will reach a deal, I doubt it.-- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 15:06, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Pending support Even if they reach a deal, this will be big. But it could be the case that they don't reach it today but are able to band-aid it in one or two days more. Definitely wait to see what happens today from Congress. --M ASEM  (t) 15:08, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. It is no 'cold', nothing really scary or dangerous. More hype than substance to it. Ворот93 (talk) 15:12, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * "Nothing really scary or dangerous"? This thing can wreck the U.S. economy.-- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 15:27, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Market traders may panic but apart from that nothing great will happen. Again, it is all about the hype. Ворот93 (talk) 17:10, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Since the stock market is forward-looking (by about six months, they say), this non-event is already priced in. There will be no crash. Abductive  (reasoning) 20:25, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Gotta agree with FT - this is rather serious and top-news in the UK where I am. 85.211.124.161 (talk) 15:52, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It can wreck the economy, but maybe it won't. It can't do anything until the markets re-open after the New Year. Formerip (talk) 16:07, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Can you please explain how my family having 400 dollars less a month to spend won't hurt the economy? If anything, it'll hurt american families big time. gwickwire  talk edits 20:13, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Because the next Congress can make a deal retroactive, that's why. Abductive  (reasoning) 20:23, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Technically, yes. Practically, no. Give me one tax bill that has been made retroactive in the past 4 years. You can't. Because this Congress does nothing. I'm sitting here watching C-SPAN and some Senator is talking about school busses, not fiscal cliff. If they make a bi-partisan retroactive bill that passes both houses and the president, I'll be really surprised. gwickwire  talk edits 20:42, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Hence my opposition to posting; consensus here at ITN/C is not to post stories of nothing happening. Abductive  (reasoning) 20:50, 31 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Wait until there are some actual effects to report. Formerip (talk) 15:22, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for entry at the time New Year reaches the US, since there will inevitably be effects. If a substantial amount of effects are extended to a later time, I'd go for changing "the effects" to "effects" in the blurb, or choosing the alternative one. Mikael Häggström (talk) 16:00, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support if the Fiscal Cliff comes into force Oppose if there is a deal. At this late stage deal to postpone the fiscal cliff would mark a transition from normal business with a bit of brinksmanship, to normal business with a bit of finger-pointing as to why certain elements of the deal were included. A failure to agree a deal would without question be major economic news with effects far beyond the US. There is a possibility that a deal could be significant enough to post, but it looks far more likely that any agreement will be a temporary reprieve in order to buy time to negotiate a proper package in the coming months. —WFC— FL wishlist 16:26, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, and kudos to Luke for nominating this early. I may disagree with the suggestion that a deal should be posted, but starting the discussion early was certainly a good idea. Happy New Year everyone! —WFC— FL wishlist 16:30, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support - Either way this is In the News, and worthy of a blurb. I also wish everyone a Happy New Year! Jus  da  fax   16:54, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose The bill was passed in 2011. That it will actually take effect is not news, just political drama. μηδείς (talk) 18:16, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - A deal was reached this morning.--WaltCip (talk) 18:25, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Not true. -- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 18:32, 31 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose, I think but I'm open to better informed voices. Just as the measures could be headed off at the eleventh hour, can they not be rescinded at the first hour? If a tax increase is only in place for a very brief time, if departments are able to resume spending at the previous level before any real impact is felt, then this is a cliff below which a trampoline can be pulled out at any time. Kevin McE (talk) 18:28, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Exactly, that they can be repealed or amended at any time is the essence of it. There is no fact of nature involved here.  The only real exigency is that withholding for the different tax rates must begin, and might be changed on very short notice.  But "possible accounting chaos headache" is not really an ITN-worthy subject. μηδείς (talk) 19:13, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support posting if no deal is reached by 12:00 AM EST tonight. Otherwise, support a blurb on the deal reached. gwickwire  talk edits 20:13, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose if nothing happens, Neutral if a deal is reached. I feel that this story is overblown, since a deal struck when the new Congress convenes can be made retroactive. Presently, even if a deal is reached by midnight, it is too late to avoid some aspects of the "cliff", such as mailings that have already been printed. Also, this story is confined to a single nation. I would not be the least troubled if it was never posted to ITN. Abductive  (reasoning) 20:21, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: The House of Representatives has basically wrapped any chance of a vote they have today, so we will technically go over the "fiscal cliff". gwickwire  talk edits 21:17, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * And as this article says, they can vote that retroactively reverses that, and given that there are talks to a deal being close, I would not rush to post this. --M ASEM (t) 21:32, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I wasn't suggesting a rush. As I said above, at 12:00 post it. And if anyone can provide any proof Congress will actually work together (gasps from around the world) to do anything, much less agree on how to retroactively do something, then please tell me. From the office of the Clerk of the House: "1:37:58 P.M. - The Speaker announced that the House do now recess. The next meeting is subject to the call of the Chair." and representatives have been leaving. Even if the Senate sends something to the House today or (not) tomorrow, it's highly unlikely there will be a Quorum to conduct business, and therefore we are pretty much going over it for the time being. It's called ITN, not "wait until we know facts before posting". If there's a retroactive deal (or any deal) struck, we can always update it later. gwickwire  talk edits 21:37, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Some people here happen to be under the strange impression that "something is going to happen" if Congress doesn't "prevent" it. But what is going to happen is exactly what Congress voted for, various spending cuts and tax increases.  How it can be viewed as some sort of natural disaster if the laws Congress passed are enacted is beyond me.  Every law works this way--it goes into effect unless repealed or amended.  Why aren't we talking about the 'Obamacare Infection' as well as a 'Fiscal Cliff'?  Many parts of that law will also go into effect generating new regulations and tax increases unless it is repealed.  This 'the sky is falling' hysteria is the press and politicians at there worst, and a neutral international encyclopedia shouldn't be trumpetting it. μηδείς (talk) 22:22, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * These aren't laws being enacted, this is related to the expiration of laws. Ryan Vesey 22:27, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * One, that's technical nitpicking--Congress chose the dates the tax cuts would expire--and two, there are spending cuts that will come into effect, not just tax increases. What will happen is the will of Congress alone.  One might as well panic that the alarm clock will go off at the time for which you set it. μηδείς (talk) 22:32, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * No, it's not nitpicking, it's correct. Congress chose those dates a long time ago. They knew they'd have to revisit it now. They aren't revisiting it. By the way, the issue of the fiscal cliff isn't just the Bush taxes.. It also includes items such as other taxes, and other economical news (such as our lack of a true, required by law, budget the passt 3 FYs). This is newsworthy. gwickwire  talk edits 22:35, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose They're still talking about a deal occurring after today and being retroactive. We can post once an agreement is or is not made. Ryan Vesey 22:30, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Moved by gwickwire to order correctly gwickwire  talk edits 22:35, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support this is exactly the same as the austerity bills we rightly posted for Greece (and Italy and Spain? I dont remember), so it ought to be posted as well. --IP98 (talk) 02:24, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Yet another comment for all: This is (and may have been for a while) in today (yesterday UTC)'s current events portal as something along the lines of "the US goes over the fiscal cliff after the House said it would hold no vote Monday". See above for more. gwickwire  talk edits 02:42, 1 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose Nothing happened - the story of the 112th United States Congress. Plus, this is really more of a "curb" than a "cliff", as these matters can still be addressed in early January with minimal impact. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:54, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, it's 2013 now (eastern time). Are we gonna add this or what? A temporary deal has been reached . Is this worth mentioning?-- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 05:23, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment A deal has been reached (CNN). On that note, Oppose I think the whole thing is really overblown, as others have said above. If the deal hadn't been reached, will re really be talking about this months from now? --  Anc516  (Talk ▪ Contribs) 05:25, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
 * A temporary deal has been reached by about 3-5 people. The Senate has not (as had been promised by Obama and Biden earlier) voted on it yet, and Biden has been skeptical that it will even pass the democratically controlled Senate. Much less the House. So, no a deal has NOT been reached yet, as it has to pass both houses still, and then Obama. Technically, we're over the cliff right now. Regardless of any bill, we went over the cliff. That's like saying "I'm a lifeguard, a kid's drowning, I saved him after he started drowning, so he wasn't ever drowning." No. We're over the cliff. Due to failure of government, this happened. It shouldn't matter that a deal is "in the works" or "agreed upon" or "up for a vote" or anything else, regardless of all that we are still over the cliff. gwickwire  talk edits 05:33, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
 * If there was absolutely no progress on the deal such that all the events of the fiscal cliff would have been in full force for a week or so, that's one thing that would definitely be notable. However, all signs point to a deal happening, with retroactive terms, as soon as both houses are back in session (Weds). This would make any news element on the cliff seem out of place.  I would argue - lets see what the headlines say tomorrow because as I'm reading stories now, while the impact of the cliff technically go into force, it's going to be fixed so fast that the reports are going as doom-and-gloom as they were before.  --M ASEM  (t) 05:40, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
 * And to follow up, I just saw on the news that the Senate passed their part of the bill, the House is expected to vote on that tomorrow at noon EST. So yes, while technically the cliff happened, it's being resolved quickly, making this much less a story. I still think we should ITN it, but wait until we're sure that passage has happened to avert it. --M ASEM (t) 07:08, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Regardless of whether or not we have plunged off the cliff into a bunch of big & pointy spires at the bottom, is this really something that we will talk about in the future? Yes, this is crystal-balling, but most of these political topics in the US end up being forgotten about weeks later. The media needs headlines to sell papers, and they've rode this story harder than Lindsay Lohan at a coke-party. Remember this? That was the same story, all kinds of hype about whether or not a last-minute deal would be reached, then a deal was struck, then it went quiet. I don't see this being any different. Most people are already completely in the dark as to what the fiscal cliff is in the first place, other than the fact that they see it in the news and people say it's important (funny example (yes, a joke)). --  Anc516  (Talk ▪ Contribs) 07:19, 1 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose "Large, stable, developed federal state agrees budget". -- RA (talk) 14:32, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Beijing Subway now the world's longest

 * Comment: The update to the article, at Beijing Subway needs references.  Spencer T♦ C 20:08, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment, um, the New York City subway system has 1,056 km of track. Abductive  (reasoning) 20:28, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Because New York City has the awesome four tracks per line (two express, two local) over much of the system, for an average of 3.14, while most subways in the world have only two. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:41, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That would still make NY the longest, though (?). Formerip (talk) 14:23, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Only by length of track and number of stations. Not by length of lines. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 15:07, 1 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Support, significant milestone. I suggest we also link to List of metro systems, though that might need updating. I was surprised to find that the London Underground is only slightly shorter at 402 km Modest Genius talk 17:48, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Well if I interpret the article correctly, it appears that Beijing will have 1050km by 2020. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:00, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll set a reminder on my phone. Formerip (talk) 02:00, 2 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose then. It appears to be a legalistic interpretation of "longest" which many readers will object to. Abductive  (reasoning) 05:27, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not legalistic. New York City has more tracks per se, but Beijing covers more ground. You could create a one-line, two-stop subway with hundreds of sets of tracks lined up and beat out New York. If you were to beat Beijing's record, however, you would actually have to cover 450 km, one way, one track. Big difference there. I'll support this, by the way. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  06:40, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose: The significance of records like these involves the infrastructure required to break the record. Since the New York subway system still exceeds Beijing's by 614 km, there is no significance. Ryan Vesey 06:49, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * If you're comparing infrastructure to infrastructure, surely Beijing has at least two tracks per line so you should give it 884km, almost as much as NY. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:55, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Yawning oppose China gets another infrastructure record which is really a minor deal these days. Plus, this record could be taken back by NY if then add another station somewhere. Nergaal (talk) 06:52, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Nominator's Note: When Beijing Subway added a large chunk of tracks back in 2010 with the opening of the Fangshan Line, Yizhuang Line etc, it was posted without much hesitation here on ITN. I am not so bent on highlighting the record as much as I am nominating this item for the sake of the opening of Line 6 and the extension of two other lines - all of which amount to a similar degree of network expansion as the ITN item in 2010. So in other words, alternative could be "Beijing Subway expands to 442km with the opening of Line 6 and the expansion of two other lines." Colipon+ (Talk) 15:59, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe we could add it to ITNR? Formerip (talk) 18:35, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I can't imagine why that was posted without hesitation. There's nothing ITN significant about a subway expanding.  There's nothing new involved, nothing special involved. Ryan Vesey 18:54, 2 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose that Beijing's system is now slightly longer than Shanghai's seems not that interesting really - we're not talking a brand new system but rather an expansion of a previous one. And, as the comments above bring out, it's pretty technical what counts as "longest" diluting the significance of setting the record. LukeSurlt c 18:50, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - As the Beijing Subway has the longest total route length, it's assumed that it covers a larger area or covers an area more comprehensively than the NYC subway system, in my opinion, that's more of a milestone than track length (think about how much time it takes to plot the stations and plan the route, survey the geography of the area, lay out the electrical grid, with track length, you're just simply laying out more tracks). YuMaNuMa Contrib 21:03, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose There's something of the "best of three......five.......eleven......" about this story and given all things involved in this nomination, I just can't see any justification for including it on the front page doktorb wordsdeeds 21:26, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

[Posted to RD] Death of Rita Levi-Montalcini

 * Support for ticker; death of a leading and prize-winning specialist in her field. 331dot (talk) 15:30, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Weak Oppose There are at least five Nobel prize winners per year, thus we'd expect about the same number Nobel prize winners to die per year. Prior to the ticker I think we generally agreed a Nobel prize (and the general academic distinction that is associated with that) is not, in itself, sufficient for a posting. I'm not really sure where the bar exists for the RD ticker, but I think this must be somewhere towards the low end. --LukeSurlt c 19:00, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support we post more than 5 Hollywood actors in a month, but we very rarely post scientists that don't have Nobels. Nergaal (talk) 19:08, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * You are aware that if you post something like that, you can only expect to be challenged on it. Would you care to name the last three months in which we have posted more than five actors (I won't even restrict you to Hollywood).  Kevin McE (talk) 19:14, 30 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose per Luke: more like 10 laureates per year, and so this has repeatedly been rejected as an automatic pass to ITN. We are repeatedly told that the threshold for inclusion is no lower in the RD era. It would need considerable greater impact for me to be able to support. Kevin McE (talk) 19:14, 30 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support (Weak) for RD I am opposed to listing Nobel Laureates just because they are Nobel Laureates, but she seems to have been unique on several accounts, and this is making news outside Italy when many laureates die without significant mention in the press.    μηδείς (talk) 19:36, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That's possibly because it's December 30th and the news is fairly slow. LukeSurlt c 20:11, 30 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment: she is the first Nobel laureate to live to 100. Nergaal (talk) 19:39, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support, in addition to be one of the Nobel Laureates she has other unique characteristics such as having significant scientific contributions, being a female scientist, her age and her ethnicity.Egeymi (talk) 19:45, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Every Nobel laureate will have made significant contributions to science (or economics or peace). Re: ethnicity, a little bit of trivia: 20% of Nobel laureates are Jewish. --LukeSurlt c 20:08, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * If you eliminate these two points, then focus on other two and the other points that she uniquely had, but I failed to state. It is hard to understand why she is not qualified to be posted for RD.Egeymi (talk) 20:20, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * But Luke, how many Jewish Nobel Laureates are female Italian centenarians senators-for-life who die on slow news days? μηδείς (talk) 20:25, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Heh, as I stated above, my opposition is only weak. I reckon if this passes you'd be able to put together a similar argument for posting most Laureates to the ticker, though (in my opinion at least) that probably wouldn't be such a bad thing. LukeSurlt c 20:49, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * My weak support cancels your weak oppose. I am basically going by the fact that she's got a blurb on the front page of Fox News online, and that she's mildly interesting otherwise.  Fox News doesn't list just every old female Italian centenarian senator-for-life Nobel Laureate who passes. μηδείς (talk) 21:27, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for ticker. Female Nobel laureate in the sciences. Topped various online news sites for a short while. Abductive  (reasoning) 22:58, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. Very interesting background story, and she was still politically active as recently as 2008. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  00:01, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: There's only one sentence in the article about Levi-Montalcini's work that led to her Nobel Prize. Being one of her most important accomplishments, there should be more in the article about that than just one sentence.  Spencer T♦ C 00:22, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for ticker at least: Notable for being a Nobel laureate, and a woman at that (+ 100 years old, which is a novelty). I think the article has been expanded enough too. -- Hazhk Talk to me 00:49, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for ticker, oppose blurb Nobel laureates are important enough to note, but not necessarily enough for a blurb. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:09, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment Has this been updated? μηδείς (talk) 02:31, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose for both There's nothing I can see permitting Nobel Laureates a free-pass to the front page. From what I can gather, there's nothing about this person or their nomination which would ordinarily get support for the front page doktorb wordsdeeds 02:33, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for ticker Nobel laureate, and thus quite notable. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 03:44, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posted to RD -- Jayron  32  03:50, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Central African Republic rebellion

 * Wait - Until a peace deal is made (or if one is not and the rebels take over the capital). -- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 23:40, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Wait until the conclusion of this conflict, as FutureTrillionaire says. 331dot (talk) 00:09, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted] RD William Rees-Mogg

 * Support A man of well regarded repute over generations, a high ranking person in many British establishments which have a large world-wide reputation. He's exactly the figure whose place in history is right for the front page doktorb wordsdeeds 18:25, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Nice to see that he was still active. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  22:14, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support per nom and Eric. – Connormah (talk) 23:12, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support per Kevin's nomination. Notable and for good reason.  The Rambling Man (talk) 23:35, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Are there no admin's out there? Kevin McE (talk) 19:19, 30 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose Notability gets you an article, not an ITN listing. I'll happily change my vote if someone shows where he was considered at the top of his field, rather than just a long-time executive in journalism and broadcast. μηδείς (talk) 19:29, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posted by User:Stephen.  Spencer T♦ C 23:55, 30 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I was wondering who was to blame for this. μηδείς (talk) 23:58, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Are you counting your eleven invisible friends as oppose votes again, or do you simply object to the principle of consensus being acted upon? Kevin McE (talk) 00:10, 31 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Stop being an asshole Kevin it serves no purpose. μηδείς (talk) 02:33, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That's it: attack individuals rather than justifying your objection to consensus being acted upon. Perhaps you would like to explain what purpose is served by claiming that anyone is to blame for acting on consensus.  As soon as you publish a full apology for your reprehensible attempt to misrepresent the "!vote count, I will cease mentioning your eleven invisible friends.  Until then, don't be surprised to find reference to them in response to any unjustified argument you present here. Kevin McE (talk) 10:44, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted to RD] Death of Tony Greig

 * Comment:Updated. Notable English Test Cricketer and Commentator. Regards,   theTigerKing   07:18, 29 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support: for RD list, not full blurb. Chocolate Horlicks (talk) 08:35, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for RD, oppose full blurb, this is a person with fantastic achievements in the past, but a death secondary to lung cancer is not extraordinary, and I don't find the impact of the death in itself to be notable enough for the initial list. Mikael Häggström (talk) 08:48, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for RD. ♛♚★Vaibhav Jain★♚♛  Talk Email 08:53, 29 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support for RD Prominent both as a player and a commentator. He was a controversial figure and played a major role in the World Series Cricket breakaway, which had a significant impact on cricket. But I don't think his death is a sufficiently big story for a blurb. Suggest also a slight rewording of the blurb to read "Former England cricket captain and commentator Tony Greig dies aged 66." I think the fact he was captain is worth noting, and he wasn't just a test cricketer - he was also a highly successful one-day cricketer, as his key role with World Series Cricket would suggest. Neljack (talk) 08:59, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for recent deaths, oppose full blurb. Significant figure in world cricket, as a player, administrator, and commentator.  IgnorantArmies  – 09:24, Saturday December 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Either full blurb or RD ticker. Anyone who opposes, I intend to make them grovel...  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 10:11, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * A threatening attitude is not the way to build consensus. Kevin McE (talk) 13:02, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * D'oh!  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 13:05, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Well of course. How incredibly ignorant for a generalist reader not to recognise an obscure event specuific quote from 36 years ago. Kevin McE (talk) 14:17, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * How incredibly ignorant of you not to even bother looking at the article you're commenting on.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 17:36, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * How incredibly stupid this bickering is... Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  20:03, 29 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support for RD: proposed text not interesting enough to warrant a full blurb. Note that there is no notability difference between RD and a full blurb, so if a good blurb were proposed I might reconsider. —WFC— FL wishlist 11:27, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Could you please point out your justification for "no notability difference between RD and a full blurb", because you've said it twice now and I must have missed the memo. And everyone else must have as well. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  20:07, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Read the archives. There was explicit consensus that the introduction of RD should not lower the notability threshold at ITN; that it was simply there to streamline dull blurbs on people that clearly should be posted. If the blurb is eye-catching, we post a blurb. If it's [Name] [job] [died], we don't. I believe the French term is sens commun. —WFC— FL wishlist 13:18, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It clearly wasn't common sense, because everyone here is trying to promote bare links to blurbs. I had no idea that there were no more death blurbs. In fact you're the first person to actually mention this in RD nominations, so anyone who had not read the discussion would have no clue what that norm for RD submissions was. This should probably be highlighted at WP:ITN – where there is absolutely no mention of the ticker or procedure relating to it. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  23:36, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Weak support for RD only: very strong oppose to any suggestion of full blurb. Can we please have a proper discussion on the threshold between the two, which should have taken place before RD was implemented, and which has been attempted but hijacked by abolitionists.  Kevin McE (talk) 13:00, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment Updated nomination for RD. Regards,   theTigerKing   15:25, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Not quite sure what you were doing with that last edit: you have changed your request to RD inclusion, but added a second blurb. If you are making a RD nomination, you need to put yes in the recent deaths field, and delete or leave empty the blurb fields. Kevin McE (talk) 15:33, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Note that at present the article currently has 4 orange-level maintenance tags which rules it out under the standard ITN criteria - Dumelow (talk) 15:29, 29 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment Top of his field? This guy seems to have been a character, but what indicates he was even near the top of his field?  One source says "He was diminished, too, by his indifferent on-field performances in World Series Cricket, where he seemed to cast himself as pantomime villain."  μηδείς (talk) 16:30, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * In what way was Charles Durning at the top of his field? Or that bloke who played Quincy? Medeis follows one rule for American celebrities, another for the rest of the world... 87.114.90.71 (talk) 17:04, 29 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support Well regarded individual both in his sport and outside of it, established person of merit in his field doktorb wordsdeeds 18:26, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: There are multiple references-needed tags for several unreferenced sections that need to be addressed in the article before possible posting.  Spencer T♦ C 19:01, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posting Many references were added and all but one of the references needed tags was resolved. Consensus was clear so there's no need to hold this up any longer.  Spencer T♦ C 21:19, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Protest This should not have been posted with the tag unresolved. μηδείς (talk) 03:43, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
 * This has now been resolved.  Spencer T♦ C 07:59, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

[Blurb updated] Delhi gang-rape victim's death

 * Comment. Since this story is already featured, we should update the entry (and not promote it chronologically), perhaps by adding "and murder". BTW, the victim was not a girl. (ETA: I guess they weren't protesting against a murder, so some other way of updating instead....) Formerip (talk) 01:03, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure she is a girl, as is stated multiple times in the article. See below for my take gwickwire  talk edits 01:09, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * As is stated multiple times in the article ??!?? It's on Wikipedia FFS. She was 23. Formerip (talk) 01:11, 29 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support chronological promotion and updating. The death means we cannot really use the previous blurb, or location in the time frame of ITN. Definitally worth updating, as having it non-updated is wrong. gwickwire  talk edits 01:09, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose how does her death have a wide impact? We should wait for actual protests or something before REposting this. 01:52, 29 December 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nergaal (talk • contribs)
 * This blurb is not about the protests. Its more about the death of the girl, which seems to be very much big news. Check the number of sources to verify that.(8 hours after the death now) TheOriginalSoni (talk) 05:32, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify: updating is fine, but I oppose bumping! Nergaal (talk) 06:34, 29 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support Updating blurb. Death means charges may now be murder, not only rape. - 220  of  Borg 02:03, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Just update the blurb we already have.-- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 02:19, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Update existing blurb, do not bump it or add a new one. Modest Genius talk 03:57, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Update existing blurb. MikeLynch (talk) 04:43, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * To all those with update !votes, please specify whether your !vote is to update without chronological promotion or with. IMO it is useless to update the blurb without promoting it chronologically, as it makes no sense to have such a highly important news as the fourth hook. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 05:32, 29 December 2012 (UTC)


 * How about "The victim of a gang rape in Delhi, which sparked widespread demonstrations across India, dies as a result of her injuries." I'm uncomfortable with adding "murder". It might be chargeable that way in the United States, but I don't know enough about Indian law to post anything that implies specific criminal charges against living people. Support updating and bumping.--Chaser (talk) 06:37, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Update existing blurb without chronological promotion Alternate blurb: The victim of a gang-rape in Delhi, which sparked widespread demonstrations across India, dies in Singapore. Regards,   theTigerKing   07:34, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Update existing blurb. Chocolate Horlicks (talk) 08:36, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

There is no way to adequately update the blurb without bumping it. Either we speak about the protests alone, in which case we cannot speak about the death; or we speak about the death; in which case we cannot make the sneaky update. ITN does not change the order of blurbs (from what I gathered in a nom after the Sandy Hook shooting where adding the hook in the second place was not allowed). And this death either deserves a separate blurb or none at all. I think its better if I withdraw the ITN nomination if its about the latter. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 09:58, 29 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Updated - There is clear consensus here to update the existing blurb without bumping it to the top. I am not aware of any rule that prevents this and it certainly used to be commonplace when I used to edit ITN more regularly - Dumelow (talk) 11:29, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Wait, I don't get it. If the blurb is now about her death (which, in its current phrasing, is the case), and not about the protests, then why isn't it bumped to fit chronological order? I don't see the big deal anyway. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  20:01, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It does seem logical that the blurb should be promoted now that the subject has been changed from the protests to the death. Formerip (talk) 21:08, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It should not be beyond our collective wit to compose a blurb that retains the focus of the blurb (thus not requiring bumping) while recording the death: A fatal gang rape in Delhi sparks widespread demonstrations across India. or (given that fatality was an unknown at the time of the demonstrations) A gang rape in Delhi, in which the victim received fatal injuries, sparks widespread demonstrations across India.'' Kevin McE (talk) 21:16, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Something like that would also be my preference, but it seems like we've chosen the other door. Formerip (talk) 00:50, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Comment about promotion of blurb The brutal assault and rape of the woman was not a notable event. What was notable was the protests that followed, lockdown of the capital which resulted the incident to be covered by foreign media. The unfortunate death of the girl and the silent protests that followed, was hence, covered by the media around the world. Has India and the world changed (till the time of posting this comment) after her death? The answer is NO! The blurb reflects the same. Regards,  theTigerKing   03:49, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * No, the blurb patently does not reflect the lack of change in India and the world. I think you are expressing a preference for a blurb that focuses on the protests, and yet you have not commented in favour of the proposal that does so.  Kevin McE (talk) 12:56, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Tu-204 crash at Vnukovo airport

 * Oppose in what way is this "very notable" other than the fact a dodgy airline has crashed at a dodgy airport killing (sadly) a handful of people? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:25, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * An international airport of the second largest city of Europe is "dodgy"? Ворот93 (talk) 01:43, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose Mercifully few deaths, although each is sad. Although it is in the headlines today, this is very much a tomorrow's chip paper story: it will not lead to nationwide mourning, major reviews of plane safety, or anything else.  Our 2012 Aviation accidents records 17 deadlier incidents, the majority of which were not posted.  Kevin McE (talk) 20:47, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Disagree on (almost) all counts. The crash occurred near the capital so it will not go off so easily. Also, this crash is going to kick off systemic re-examination of Tu-204 wheel brakes (as stated in TV reports). Ворот93 (talk) 01:39, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose per the reasons given. 331dot (talk) 22:22, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose I agree with the statements given by my honourable friends above. doktorb wordsdeeds 22:24, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose Not notable enough for ITN. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 03:12, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Fontella Bass for RD

 * American R&B soul singer dies at age of 72. Eugεn  S¡m¡on  (14) ®  08:20, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose for all Not important enough for either blurb or ticker doktorb wordsdeeds 10:05, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose Not a leader in the R&B field.  Spencer T♦ C 13:40, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose Not quite a one hit wonder, but not much more.  Kevin McE (talk) 16:26, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose for blurb and ticker. Thine Antique Pen (talk) 13:41, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Jiroemon Kimura, oldest male in history

 * Personally I support this, though recent precedents seem to suggest consensus is this sort of item isn't noteworthy. 331dot (talk) 09:38, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose, on the grounds that I would prefer to give him a full blurb when he dies, such as "Jiroemon Kimura, the longest-lived verified male in history, dies at the age of one-hundred-and-something." —WFC— FL wishlist 10:50, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose I'm with WFC on this. There's not a lot of substance to the story, in any case, so let's wait until he dies. In fact, let's try to decide sooner rather than later if we're more likely to support an age-story on death or on confirmation of holding a record, because I don't think we can have both doktorb wordsdeeds 11:01, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The advantage of posting at death is that we can actually post the new record, rather than simply the point at which the previous record was overtaken. Besides, if we were to post now, people would cite this posting as a reason not to post his death. —WFC— FL wishlist 12:42, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Not a great assumption; especially if Kimura lives to be much older than this. Let's not WP:CRYSTAL this nom. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  21:01, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Congratulations on one of the silliest quotations of CRYSTAL in the history of Wikipedia. Regardless, given that this nomination is not going to succeed, if you were to successfully undermine my point, you would simply be undermining the consensus that we should post a full blurb when he dies. —WFC— FL wishlist 07:34, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Either you edited your comment or I misread it, but I replied to that because I thought you said that the longer the man lives, the more notable he gets, which is why I quoted CRYSTAL. My bad if that wasn't the case. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  23:08, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WFC. AlexTiefling (talk) 11:17, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WFC. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 15:20, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose because merely remaining alive is not noteworthy. Will also oppose anything more than RD when he dies, because his life will have made no more impact on others than that of any other elderly gent. Lots of people who have been record breakers in one respect or another die every year, and will not be posted.  Might rethink if there is major news coverage (far beyond mere mention in bulletins and obituaries) when the time comes, but I doubt that will occur. Kevin McE (talk) 16:23, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Can you please explain why being the longest lived human being (to be documented) is not noteworthy? I can accept that simply noting anyone who reaches 110 or what have you isn't, but I don't understand that reasoning applied to the person who has lived longer than all other human beings before them. If it was you, I think you would want it to be noted here. 331dot (talk) 00:46, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Firstly, he will not be the longest lived human being ever reliably recorded until September 2019, should he live that long. He is merely the longest living of his half of the species.
 * There are thousands of achievements that are attested as records: many are totally superficial, many (including this) are only records by restricted criteria, and some are the result of historically notable and relevant endeavour. Whether the holder of a record would like to see that recorded on ITN is possibly the weakest argument I have ever read: David Rudisha might have liked to see his 800m WR recorded here in the summer, but that was not a consideration.
 * Longevity is not the result of historically relevant achievement on the part of the record holder, and is not automatically more worthy of mention than any other record. Nor is it treated as such by the media.
 * Mere survival is not the pinnacle of human achievement. Kevin McE (talk) 21:07, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * If the criteria to be listed here is that something be the "pinnacle of human achievement", we might as well get rid of ITN, because not too many things posted there would meet that standard. We're here to point out significant and interesting information, not just notable achievements for humanity(and humanity figuring out how to live that long is certainly notable).  Survival is not just about a record; it's about surviving all events and random chance that could stop such longevity.  Not too many people do that and the odds of doing so are fantastically small.  We're not talking about who can eat the most hot dogs or kiss the most people in an hour.  331dot (talk) 22:28, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I've already acknowledged that many records are totally superficial: don't try to undermine my argument by raising issues that I have made it very clear that it does not rely upon. More to the point, this is not earning most Academy Awards, gaining multiple Nobel prizes, being the composed/author who has sold most works, or numerous military decorations.  Doing those things would be outstanding in a field of expertise: being kept alive largely through the efforts of others, while spending most of one's time in bed, is not a field of expertise.  His "achievement" is only a record by virtue of elimination of the majority of the human race from the reckoning: a Venn intersection between reaching 115 years, 253 days and having a Y chromosome. Kevin McE (talk) 22:48, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * An RD would be idiotic. He is far better known as the oldest man in history than as Jiroemon Kimura. Surely in such cases we either post a blurb, or not bother at all. For the record, when he dies, I will be arguing Blurb or nothing for the reasons I gave when the previous oldest person in the world died. —WFC— FL wishlist 11:33, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The argument for reduced blurb in RDs has been presented and has not gained consensus. Very few people are more known for their name than for their "achievements".  Those few that are (Mandela, Pope, QEII) are probably precisely those for whom a blurb will be appropriate on their death. As I've already said, if global news coverage at the time of his death is enormous, my mind could be changed, but that seems unlikely.  Kevin McE (talk) 21:07, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Has not convinced you, and has not gained consensus, are (thankfully) two distinctly different things. I would suggest you read the multitide of comments above, entirely in agreement with my rationale, as well as the comments that go further than mine and actually want a blurb now. —WFC— FL wishlist 07:34, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It appears that you have misunderstood. Had "the argument for reduced blurb in RDs" gained consensus, then the RD line would currently read something like   Norman Schwarzkopf, Jr. (US general) – Gerry Anderson (British animator and TV producer) – Charles Durning (US actor).  That has nothing to do with anything that I have, or have not, been convinced of.  In the case of the current proposal, we are agreed on opposing it: I am disturbed that the above reads rather like an attempt to tell me that I would not have a right to argue for RD when this man's death occurs.  Perhaps I will be in a minority when that comes about: that does not preclude my right to present a dissenting opinion. Kevin McE (talk) 13:19, 30 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Futile Support - I think these sorts of record-based stories are inherently encylopeadic and are useful adverts for Wikipedia's content. LukeSurlt c 20:41, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Strong support for reasons I gave at the discussion 331dot linked to. Becoming the world's oldest male, ever to exist, is an impressive feat to be recognised, and I wonder why the opposers believe that his death is more noteworthy than the record itself. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  20:59, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * He will be older tomorrow, and the day after tomorrow, and so on, for as long as he lives. By posting the record at his death, we are posting the new record that he has set, as well as recognising his passing. If we post now, there is zero chance of us getting consensus for the latter. —WFC— FL wishlist 11:25, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * But he has set the record already. The record is that he lived longer than any known male, which he set yesterday. That's the news. There is nothing notable about him dying because it's inevitable and, according to you ITN editors, "predictable and not notable". Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  19:55, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * But when he dies, it'll be "world's oldest man dies". At the moment it's "man becomes oldest man by virtue of the previous record holder dying." We post hereditary monarchies on that basis because there's some vestige of power and responsibility when one is replaced by another. But in this case, there's nothing of any importance being passed from one person to another, it's more of a fluke of nature than most monarchies are. doktorb wordsdeeds 22:56, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't understand your point. We can look at the 100 m dash record the exact same way: "man become fastest sprinter by virtue of the previous record holder not being able to run faster". Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  00:40, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Not quite, it is "man becomes oldest man by virtue of passing age at which previous (gender specific) record holder died." But still as much a fluke.  Kevin McE (talk) 23:10, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted to RD] Death of Norman Schwarzkopf Jr.



 * Support for full blurb, one of the most successful military commanders of the last 40 years. μηδείς (talk) 01:13, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for full blurb but only because he was the coalition leader in the Gulf War. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 01:53, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support a RD ticker. Oppose a full blurb. -- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 02:16, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for RD ticker only. Significant figure, but not enough for a full blurb IMO. Also, don't use the euphemism 'passes away' in the blurb - 'dies' is much better (see WP:EUPHEMISM). Modest Genius talk 02:26, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for RD ticker only - Here comes another fight over a full blurb vs RD ticker. RD ticker is the place for most all deaths. Just say no to full blurb. Agree that wording of blurb should be 'dies.' Jus  da  fax   02:53, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for either, just post it already. Abductive  (reasoning) 03:08, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for full blurb, many notable figures been dying lately so RD has a backlog, and he's probably the most historically significant and notable for the blurb because of his involvement in the Gulf War. Undoubtedly one of the most significant military commanders of the late 20th century, article is in poor shape though. Secret account 03:16, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment How about an update? --  tariq abjotu  03:19, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * When this was posted, the news was out for about 30 minutes, and only a perfunctory morgue-style obit was available. I'll get to it tomorrow if nobody else does, but I'll be opening presents with the kids, so don't expect that soon. μηδείς (talk) 03:45, 28 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support only RD. He was briefly extremely notable but didn't gave long term notability like Colin Powell, David Petreaus, or Wesley Clark.  He died of old age in retirement.  Not huge news.--Johnsemlak (talk) 05:09, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support one way or the other, but please, no "passing away". Lampman (talk) 07:46, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posted to RD per arguments above. --Tone 08:22, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for full blurb  ✍   Mtking  ✉ 12:40, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose promotion to full blurb: RD was brought in to avoid blurbs that did no more than record the fact of a death. There is nothing about the nature of his death or the response to it that is newsworthy, it is simply the occasion for publishing the obits.  Kevin McE (talk) 16:05, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep as RD' as per Kevin. Not at the level of news that warrents a full blurb. LukeSurlt c 20:45, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Promote to full blurb . "Schwarzkopf was involved in rescuing men of his battalion from a minefield [in Vietnam]". "Commander of the 1st Brigade of the 9th Infantry Division". "Named Deputy Commander of the Joint Task Force [during the Invasion of Grenada]". "Promoted to General and was appointed Commander-in-Chief of the U.S. Central Command ... responsible at the time for operations in the Horn of Africa, the Middle East and South Asia." "Prepared a detailed plan for the defense of the oil fields of the Persian Gulf ... which was as the basis for Operation Desert Shield". "General Schwarzkopf's offensive operational plan ... was the "left hook" strategy that went into Iraq ... and was widely credited with bringing the ground war to a close in just four days." "Offered the position of Chief of Staff of the United States Army". Sorry, but all of this is pretty big to not merit full blurb status. Highly decorated, highly accomplished. Don't let the Death Ticker force our standards too high. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  21:14, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Had absolutely no idea we banished death blurbs as the norm. This should have been made clear here or on the main WP:ITN page when the ticker was introduced. Clearly a lot of people here and on other discussions didn't get that memo either. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  23:42, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Ticker only. Death will have no major ramifications, article has orange tag, would contribute to systematic bias. Formerip (talk) 00:58, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Opposed to full blurb per Kevin. On notability grounds there is no difference between RD and a full blurb: anyone on RD is notable enough for a full blurb. But Eric's post above demonstrates just how difficult it would be to retain neutrality with anything other than the tried and detested [Nationality] [name] [why he was famous] [dies at the age of whatever-it-is]. —WFC— FL wishlist 11:23, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Then why do we even bother with deaths in the first place then? And "tried and detested"? What other way is there to present a death? Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  19:40, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Upgrade--if Eric is in favor of a full blurb that means this nomination should be upgraded according to the proposed criteria when RD was instituted. μηδείς (talk) 19:53, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Could you please show me where this discussion is? Because WFC is saying this and you're saying that and I don't see any discussion – because ITN is so secretive with its discussion. (In fact I only noticed the WT:ITN page a week ago...) Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  20:12, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Go to the talk page and search the archives back in August for various discussions under recent deaths. I am having keyboard trouble and am using a family member's computer or I would find the link for you.  If you have trouble, CI will see if I can do it later. μηδείς (talk) 01:43, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * In the Meantime more than two thirds of the votes here are in favor of a full listing, only one third are opposed. The listing should be upgraded. μηδείς (talk) 01:43, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That is an appalling misrepresentation of facts. I count eight definite rejections of a full blurb (Future Trillionaire, Modest Genius, Judasfax, Johnsemlak, Kevin McE, LukeSurl, FormerIP, WFC), which means you will have to find at least seventeen !votes that specifically specify preference for a full blurb: I can find six (Mesem, Mdeis, Presidentman, Secret, Mtking and EricLeb).  Two (Abductive and Lampman) have stated that they are indifferent as to which type of posting, while wanting it brought to the mainpage.  I'm intrigued as to where you will find the other eleven full blurb preferences that must be found for your comment to have any semblance of truth.  I would suggest that retraction and apology is the only honourable course.  Kevin McE (talk) 13:36, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

The simple fact is that this nomination was for a full blurb, and the vast majority of votes here support a full blurb. People who opposed a full blurb nomination voted that way explicitly, and they count as 1/3 of the votes. Per the discussion when ITN/RD was set up, when the majority of votes supported a full blurb, a full blurb would be posted. That is the case here. μηδείς (talk) 19:43, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * " the vast majority of votes here support a full blurb" - nonsense. I count at least eight people explicitly opposed to making it a full blurb.  Please demonstrate how you came to your conclusion of "the vast majority" supporting a full blurb.  Shouldn't be too hard should it?  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:47, 30 December 2012 (UTC)


 * You seem to be right, Rambling. I was apparently double counting supports somehow.  Nothing to do with eggnog though, it's only 3pm. μηδείς (talk) 20:01, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That's it? No apology for presenting false data, no withdrawal of your claim?  You respond to RM saying that there are eight, but ignored for several hours my specific naming of those eight, even when I had specifically challenged you in user talk space to address the issue when you were online several hours earlier?  Kevin McE (talk) 00:04, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

@ Eric, full blurbs have not been banished, they can still be nominated and are supposed to be for heads of state, exceptional artists, unexpected deaths, etc. Given Schwartzkopf was commander in chief of the largest and most successful international coalition since WWII, it seemed to some of us he deserved a full blurb. μηδείς (talk) 23:57, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I know. I said "banished ... as the norm". I assume that we would reserve the blurbs for high-profile deaths, or deaths of high-profile people though. And I don't think his meets that. Not quite, anyway. I'm Neutral on a promotion based on that line of reasoning. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  00:12, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Death of Dennis O'Driscoll

 * Support for RD, article has a few glitches. quickly succumbed to his fate isn't exactly in like with the WP:MOS. Also Irish Times lists is death as Dec 24. --IP98 (talk) 23:40, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * RTÉ says the 26th and someone on the talk page says the 25th so there is some confusion. The only thing certain is he died recently. --86.40.103.60 (talk) 00:04, 28 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Can someone suggest one of his better poems? μηδείς (talk) 01:16, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * "Better" depends what you like I guess. Here is one. --86.40.108.143 (talk) 15:56, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I prefer poems with strict form, but I liked his imagery a lot, and loved the comparisons with Australia. μηδείς (talk) 18:14, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Has anybody noticed how Medeis treats non-American noms? It's hilariously bias. He never gives a support/oppose on noms that are not American yet are clearly going to pass, he treats non-American sources as if they are not reliable - take a look down below when he quoted one American source for an American nom, then went all "Questionable" about a non-American source for a non-American "Oooo, looks like we're going to need more sources for that!" and called the only people who would want such a story posted "fanboys" - ITN/C is treated like some kind of different universe to the rest of Wikipedia. This is a disgrace. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.210.102.210 (talk) 22:49, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It's a shame that poetry is so neglected. Oh well. --86.40.108.143 (talk) 23:06, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Here is another one I found interesting but, again, these things are entirely subjective. --86.40.108.143 (talk) 23:05, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Death of Richard Rodney Bennett (for RD)

 * Neutral comment This is not an oppose as such, but if he's not significant enough for a full blurb, surely he shouldn't be posted? When the ticker was introduced, the argument was very clear – that the ticker was primarily there to prevent ITN from becoming an obituary, as well as to filter out blurbs of the form "[Nationality] [occupation] [name] [dies at the age of] [age]". It was made equally clear that the ticker would not and must not lower notability requirements. Has something changed that I've missed (it might well have, I'm not particularly active nowadays)? —WFC— FL wishlist 07:30, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * In making the nomination, I knew I wasn't going to fight for a full blurb, but one could easily be made for this, eg "Sir Richard Rodney Bennett, composer for film and television works, dies at XX". However, given all the other recent tickers that have been posted in the last few days, this seems to be at the same level of importance/notability as the other entertainment-related deaths. --M ASEM (t) 18:19, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose for all Not notable enough for either blurb or ticker. As WFC says, the ticker was not designed to be an obituary service. doktorb wordsdeeds 10:40, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * ITN itself was not designed to be an obituary service, but it's beginning to look that way. Why, given that Wikipedia already has a Recent deaths page, does ITN/C have to be clogged up with obit nominations (and the toxic arguments they engender)? 87.114.90.71 (talk) 11:26, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify, I did not in any way, shape or form suggest that we post too many deaths (or too few). I simply said that the death ticker was introduced to ensure that a flood of significant deaths would not alter our standards for inclusion. In the same way that an election ticker has been considered from time-to-time to ensure that a flood of significant elections would not, in itself, prevent some from being posted. —WFC— FL wishlist 12:37, 28 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I am not at all bothered by this nomination. Why should this thread be the venue for complaints about other nominations or that we even list dead people?  The man was a three-time academy award nominee.  Voting opposed is always an option.  We don't need to discourage good faith nominations. As for "toxic arguments" in other threads, the talk page is the place for that--or you could simply refrain from making them. μηδείς (talk) 18:08, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose per ITN/DC #2. Short resume, three oscar noms, not exactly standing out as "widely regarded as important in his/her field". --IP98 (talk) 23:43, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose, not a lead story on the BBC or elsewhere. Please stop nominating everybody who has an article when they die. Abductive  (reasoning) 19:11, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * There's nothing wrong with a lot of nominations. We're here to find (diverse) stories to post on the section, not to restrict it to a select few extremely high-profile cases. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  21:37, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted to RD] Gerry Anderson RD

 * Support pending update. I was actually about to nominate this myself. Popular entertainer who created some extremely popular programmes. The article is fairly extensive but poorly referenced; it needs a prose update of some form. Modest Genius talk 18:10, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Highly regarded person in his field, with a significant back catalogue to his name. Culturally important too. doktorb wordsdeeds 18:17, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support as I was e/c'd when trying to nominate it myself. A legend in his field.  The Rambling Man (talk) 18:19, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * FYI For those to whom it's not clear, Gerry Anderson was the producer of Thunderbirds (the puppet sci-fi series parodied in South Park's Team America: World Police) and Space 1999, which parodied itself. Some sources and support outside British fanboys and the BBC talking about how the man was a titan in his field would be helpful. μηδείς (talk) 19:02, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Um, Kevin actually already mentioned this in his nomination comment. Please, calm down.  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:11, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Um, drop the personal comments. Um, he did not mention the series probably most known to Americans, or that his works were the subject of parodies and usually considered flops.  Um, I suggest you focus on supporting the nom, not attacking me. Um.μηδείς (talk) 19:22, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Now then, no personal attack, just asking you to calm down with your tone (e.g. "British fanboys"!) and re-read the nomination which already included the information you deemed so important you needed to repeat it. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:27, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Your personal opinion of the man's shows doesn't count as a reason to support this nom--i.e., fanboy OR is OR. Find some sources, and more than just the BBC, calling the man the top of his field.  You are wasting your time addressing me. 19:35, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Don't we all know that!!! The Rambling Man (talk) 19:38, 26 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support as creator of programs having had worldwide impact, such as Thunderbirds and Space 1999, capturing the wonderment and faith in technical progress of the 60s and early 70s. Hektor (talk) 19:04, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. Several of Anderson's shows—Thunderbirds, Captain Scarlet and Stingray—have had decades of enduring appeal on this side of the Atlantic, and the man is credited with pioneering an entire animation style. I'd say that's more than enough to be considered "top of his field". GRAPPLE   X  19:25, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * And i am a fan of Space 1999, but do we have sources saying Anderson was at the top of his field? μηδείς (talk) 19:37, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Medeis, you are being deliberately obtuse doktorb wordsdeeds 19:54, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

I am not opposed to this nomination, but calling me obtuse is acting the fool. There's no point in people giving their personal opinions as fans of his work without providing the refs, none of which had been done until afterwards, and provided reluctantly, as if it were some sort of burden. I still don't see a source outside the UK, or any quotes about him being at the top of his field--and if the field was children's animation, he wasn't. μηδείς (talk) 20:06, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The Telegraph, The Guardian and The Times are all superlative in their obituaries. Have you any basis for your dismissal of the BBC, one of the world's most respectable news sources? GRAPPLE   X  19:42, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It seems to be a personal gripe and can be easily dismissed doktorb wordsdeeds 19:56, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Sigh. New York Times, too. Better? GRAPPLE   X  20:10, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep your (Fart--oops.) bodily functions to yourself please. Still not seeing anything superlative even in the NYT Europe section. μηδείς (talk) 20:15, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

There's absolutely nothing superlative mentioned in any of the three British periodicals mentioned above (although I am not going to pay to get behind the Times' paywall); just that he entertained a generation of kids. Some quotes would be nice. μηδείς (talk) 20:12, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * He created some of the most well respected and groundbreaking shows on television. doktorb wordsdeeds 20:28, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Where were the quotes for Jack Klugman? He went straight up without you objecting, Medeis – in fact, you acted like a cheerleader. And now you appear to be rejecting Anderson on the grounds of nationality, a tactic you object to very strongly if anyone uses it to discount your two-bit American TV celebrities and forgotten senators. 87.114.90.71 (talk) 11:31, 27 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support, notabl and well-known in the field of science fiction and puppetry. Mjroots (talk) 20:48, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Probably the world's most recognized puppet film creator. As sources obviously demonstrate, "[t]he deceased was widely regarded as a very important figure in his or her field." --hydrox (talk) 20:59, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for ticker, reasonably good demonstration of importance in sci fi TV. --M ASEM (t) 21:04, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support, from what I see he seems to be well-known and recognized in his field to be posted here. The drama here I feel is unnecessary ad tiresome. – Connormah (talk) 22:01, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: Some article sections could use references and/or cleanup to remove some of the inline tags, such as Gerry_Anderson, Gerry_Anderson, Gerry_Anderson and Gerry_Anderson.  Spencer T♦ C 01:52, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support – without question at the top of his field. I would prefer a full blurb though – as I consistently argue for in comparable nominations – because his field was not front-of-house (musician, actor, athlete, head of state etc). —WFC— FL wishlist 05:40, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posted to RD -- Jayron  32  18:24, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Question I am not going to pull the posting without consensus here and I was not around for the recent deaths ticker discussions so I may have missed something. But the article seems below par to me (certainly below the standard we consider for full ITN postings).  The sole update to this article in relation to Anderson's death was "Gerry Anderson died on 26 December 2012 at the age of 83 after his diagnosis of dementia", no further details or reaction on why this was significant.  It seems woefully under-referenced with only 14 of the articles current 58 paragraphs having a single reference - there are no references at all between the 7th and 25th paragraphs.  It certainly doesn't meet the five sentence update ITN guidance and would fail for having an orange/red-level tag on it (someone would be hard pressed to argue against a  tag - though I hate the things).  Whilst I concur with the suitability of the subject for an RD place I do not think that the state of the article merits it, unless we do not expect RD posts to comply with the general ITN rules? - Dumelow (talk) 20:15, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * You may be interested in this discussion from earlier this month. Kevin McE (talk) 20:45, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I am not sure there was consensus to do away with the update rule, was there? I support a requirement of five sentences but think it should be an article-wide update, not strictly limited to the death itself.  The problem is fixed easy enough, give me an hour and I will make sure it is updated. μηδείς (talk) 21:36, 27 December 2012 (UTC)  It looks like Footballgy has already updated the article in spades . μηδείς (talk) 21:42, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That update isn't fantastic by any account. Fully 60% of the character count is direct quotes, the remainder being introductions to those quotes.  The single non-quote sentence "... is survived by his widow Mary and son Jamie as well as three children from former marriages — Joy, Linda and Gerry Jnr." is lifted word for word from the Metro article.  I have removed it from the article.  But that is besides the point, we are talking about expected standards at the point of posting.
 * Personally I would be happy with a lower standard of update for deaths, to require 5 sentences of filler when the only real news is "x dies of y at age z" is a bit over the top, any elaboration can be added when further details emerge later. The ticker surely exists solely to direct people to articles they are looking for already (otherwise people have no idea who the deceased are as there is no description), whereas the main blurbs actually convey information so it is reasonable to assume a certain standard of backing information in the article.  All I ask is that if this is the case we formalise this in some way, otherwise it is unfair on the posting admin who has to act without any guidance/back up from the rules - Dumelow (talk) 22:25, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * As far as I am aware the old rules are still in place. I had my obvious problems above with the terribly sloppy way this nom was handled, with people giving their OR opinions as support that he was the "top" of the puppet sci-fi animation field (how about Ray Harryhausen or Jim Henson of The Muppets and Farscape, both of whom far outrank him in regard and success?) and then facing paranoid accusation that my wanting support from sources was some nefarious anti-British campaign based on a personal gripe!  But at this point, regardless of the quality of the update, there is no technical reason for a pull, and I don't think anyone opposes the nomination.  I would probably add some quotes from obituaries in papers of record about his pioneering status.  But someone with more knowledge of the subject than I can handle that if they like. μηδείς (talk) 22:39, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree completely - leave it up. But if this to be the standard we expect of RD noms (which I have no objections to, as stated above) we need to rewrite the rules - Dumelow (talk) 22:47, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * No we don't. Trying to change the rules because Medeis is at his most passive aggressive isn't consensus building. If we're to have the ticker - and Lord knows I've never liked the idea - we can't keep falling over ourselves to redefine what those rules mean. My preference, and I'm not alone, is to ditch the ticker. Ideally, I'd ditch all death nominations from ITN completely, it's the only way we're going to get any peace doktorb wordsdeeds 22:58, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It should be noted that Jim Henson doesn't qualify for the recent part of recent deaths, and Ray Harryhausen doesn't qualify for the deaths part. -- Jayron  32  23:18, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Notwithstanding what Dumelow is stating with regard to the deaths-related update, I'm disappointed that this was posted given the quality of the rest of the article (not that I'm advocating a pull). My understanding is that RD's don't need to have as great of the deaths-related update, but the article as a whole should be of very good quality. And it seems as though my comment above was ignored and the article was posted even though there were clear referencing issues, which lessens the quality of the article as a whole. I don't support pulling, but I feel this sets a dangerous precedent if we are going to accept the "lower standard of update for deaths" and not at the same time require that articles be of very good posting quality.  Spencer T♦ C 06:35, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted] Worlds longest high speed rail line opened

 * Support - Looks like a world record to me, and the article looks up-to-date. -- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 15:07, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose pending clarification. The article doesn't make the statement worlds lognest high speed rail line, and it looks like several sections still aren't complete. --IP98 (talk) 16:44, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It should be noted that IP98's former wiki identities include StopChinaNow and TheSinophobe, and that he has a position against any story involving China. Kevin McE (talk) 17:01, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It's not exactly a secret, given that I list those users on my current users user page. --IP98 (talk) 19:10, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Let's not bring ad hominems into this.--WaltCip (talk) 18:10, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'm opposed to a fascist empire bent on world domination. I'm also opposed to posting engineering stories before the project is finished. The two valid and factual objections, overlooked by WaltCip, remain unaddressed. --IP98 (talk) 19:09, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * You would appreciate the fact that my admonishment was directed towards Kevin, not towards you.--WaltCip (talk) 19:45, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, Walt, I do, I'm sorry. --IP98 (talk) 23:33, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm surprised that you think that drawing attention to a clear bias in an editor's attitude, dissimulated by a change in name, is worthy of admonishment. It is not an ad hominem attack (You know nothing of my opinion of the Chinese government), it is declaration of COI. Kevin McE (talk) 20:01, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yo, Kevin, no dissimulation intended here. I would still be calling myself "StopChinaNow" but I was banned for an offensive name. I proudly list them on my user page. You've not uncovered any sockpuppetry, I'm not hiding a thing. Yes, I'm opposed to a fascist band of sadistic baby butchers. I don't hide that either. I'm also a good faith contributor who has been here for a long time, who has looked at the article and nomination, and made a considered objection. You've elected to ignore those objections, and derail any hope for consideration with your hateful remarks. Yes, I oppose the fascist "government" of imperial China, but this is WP:ITN, not the UN commission on human rights. Drop it please. --IP98 (talk) 23:33, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Apologies in as much as COI was clearly not an appropriate phrase to be throwing around. Kevin McE (talk) 10:55, 27 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support Whilst other countries talk, China builds, and this seems to be another highly significant news development. Also would be good for us to get something
 * Support. Notable event. NickSt (talk) 19:49, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support but with a shorter blurb. Nergaal (talk) 20:54, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment since my original oppose was hijacked with unfounded claims of a COI. Mercury Tower was rejected because even though it was tall, it wasn't finished. Shard London Bridge was posted because it was finished. I see no reason not to wait until 2015 when the entire line is done from one end to the other. --IP98 (talk) 22:04, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. This a pretty big deal, and not just for China, but internationally. In particular, in the U.S. high speed rail is a hot and controversial current political topic, and this event will certainly have an affect (now, and not just in 2015 or at some artificial future date) on the political debate surrounding it. Nsk92 (talk) 23:53, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support - It's notable, a record, and ITN-worthy. Marking as ready per consensus. Jus  da  fax   00:08, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support The blurb could be better, but the event is worth putting on ITN. Black Kite (talk) 00:21, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: The article looks good and I'm willing to post, but can I get a cite in the article for this being "the world's longest high-speed rail route"? Or link me to where it says that in the article?  Spencer T♦ C 01:49, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅ I think. I added the world record info to the lede. -- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 02:20, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, I'm a bit confused by some of the information. All of the news reports suggest that the Beijing-Guangzhou portion constitutes the longest high-speed rail line, but the article notes a (complete) continuation to Shenzhen and a further (inexplicably incomplete) continuation to Hong Kong. So... is the Guangzhou-Hong Kong portion a separate line, as the Guangzhou–Shenzhen–Hong Kong Express Rail Link article suggests? And, either way, why does the BBC and the Washington Post (via the AP) say the line from Beijing to Guangzhou is 2,298 km when our article says the length of the entire line, including the incomplete segment to Hong Kong, is 2,230 km? That table in the article isn't sourced. --  tariq abjotu  02:22, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * 2,298 km is the "rate-making distance", that is the distance the Ministry of Railways want to used to work out the ticket price. Price of Chinese train is fixed, defined by a set of formula based on the distance. I can't find public references of the 2,230 km Beijing to Hong Kong claim at this moment. But anyway it cannot be 2,298 km Beijing to Guangzhou + some 200 km Guangzhou to Hong Kong (over 10% difference) as the public news articles suggested. However, the real distance can be easily independently verified from satellite image. OpenStreetMap also has a rather accurate route ready for this verification at http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2201704 Python eggs (talk) 05:48, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * To answer Tariq's question: the 'full line' stretches from Beijing to Hong Kong, but the opened revenue segments currently only constitute the portion between Beijing and Guangzhou. This portion of the line itself has been constructed in segments, with the Beijing-Shijiazhuang and Zhengzhou-Wuhan segments opening on December 26 for full service, but the Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou and Wuhan-Guangzhou portions of the line having already been operational since earlier this year and two years ago, respectively. Technically this is one large railway line that consists of several "sub-lines". It is the longest operational high speed rail in the world insofar as Beijing-Guangzhou is the world's longest continuous and contiguous high speed service. I hope that clarifies. Colipon+ (Talk) 23:01, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It doesn't clarify. Our article says the Guangzhou-Shenzhen segment was completed a year ago. So if Beijing-Hong Kong is one continuous line, at the very least you'd expect news reports to be talking about the Beijing-Shenzhen segment being the world's longest. Is that last segment just completed, and not actually open for business as revenue track? Look, I'm not trying to hold this nomination up, but I think some alignment with the sources is in order. Python eggs said "I can't find public references of the 2,230 km Beijing to Hong Kong claim at this moment", and yet that unsourced claim is still in the article, alongside another set of unsourced figures (that are slightly discrepant). When considering how to write the blurb, I thought it would make sense to say something like "The [X]-km Beijing-[Y] line opens as the world's longest high-speed railway"... but I don't know what X and Y are. And even if "X-km" is omitted, should Y = Guangzhou, or should we say "a part of the Beijing-Hong Kong line"? --  tariq abjotu  23:38, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Your confusion about the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong section is understandable. Currently, to my knowledge, the longest-running train only goes from Beijing to Guangzhou. To get from Beijing to Shenzhen, one remains on the same line, but must transfer trains. But in any case, the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong High Speed Rail is part of the larger Beijing-Guangzhou-Hong Kong high speed rail. Presumably, when the Hong Kong section of the line is completed by 2015, there will be revenue service between Beijing and Hong Kong, which would make that service defeat the current record held by Beijing-Guangzhou. Colipon+ (Talk) 23:09, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok. I don't think that information is in the article, but ok. I'm not comfortable posting this myself, but I wouldn't object to anyone else doing so. --  tariq abjotu  23:38, 27 December 2012 (UTC)


 * As a note, 766 km of these 2000+ km opened in one day (12/26/12), over one third of the final route if it's 2230km. And why squabble about it not being finished? Shenzhen North is in the metropolitan area of the planned end (Hong Kong). Only 24 more miles of route are left to be built (39 km). the distance in comparison (center to edge), (US), proof of distance Nearly this entire distance is 217 mile an hour/350 kph trains which is quite an achievement. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:03, 28 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Posting. The article and the rail line are long enough. --Tone 08:25, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

2012–2013 named winter storms

 * Comment. Needs nomination template. The "named winter storms" are named by The Weather Channel and not a government agency(as hurricanes are) for purposes of promoting its coverage.  I'm not sure that's enough of a reason for us to refer to the storms in such a manner.  331dot (talk) 02:10, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose Not significant enough of a storm. If it gets worse, then maybe. No article either. --  Anc516  (Talk ▪ Contribs) 04:04, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose, no specific storm and no specified number of casualties. Mikael Häggström (talk) 10:20, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose Not important, notable or destructive enough for the front page doktorb wordsdeeds 10:40, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose No article. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 01:55, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Man rams schoolchildren with car

 * Impartial note: Without stating whether or not this meets ITN standards, there is currently no article to link to. -- Jayron  32  00:58, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, this isn't the place to suggest the creation of an article. 331dot (talk) 01:30, 26 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose Not for the front page, for one thing. This isn't the place to go for requesting new articles, either. We're not a news ticker, after all. doktorb wordsdeeds 01:36, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The nomination below this started with a red link too. --86.40.201.132 (talk) 02:39, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Quite sure it did. This one will end with a redlink unless and until someone who cares fixes that.  -- Jayron  32  04:22, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Indeed- the only comment made in support of this nomination is "someone needs to start the article"; until they do, we cannot evaluate the merits of putting this event in ITN. 331dot (talk) 10:24, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Hardly ITN-worthy, article or no. Jus  da  fax   04:39, 26 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose No article and no deaths.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 09:46, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose, ditto. Mikael Häggström (talk) 10:35, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose no article to link to.  Automatic Strikeout  ( T •  C ) 17:28, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted] Kazahi plane crash
BBC. Nergaal (talk) 17:24, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Support - per nominator, many deaths. - Eugεn  S¡m¡on  (14) ®  18:14, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment Article now exists (created a redirect from your red-link).  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 18:15, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support significant story from a part of the world we don't cover all that often. The update is fine – ideally I would like the article to be a little bit longer, but I am certain that it will have been expanded by the time there is consensus to post. —WFC— FL wishlist 18:24, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Neutral Decent start of an article, and the death of the acting leader of the border patrol adds some significance. At the same time, a rickety old soviet era plane crashed with 27 people on board. It's pretty mundane, in a tragic sense. I don't know when this aircraft was built, but the AN-72 article lists it as "low level production" so I'm guessing this wasn't shiny and new). I mean, an A340 slamming into the runway at Mumbai would be easier to support. Anyway, we seem to be quick to post all aircraft crashes, but with so many planes in the air around the world, is it really that big of a deal? --IP98 (talk) 18:28, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: Article currently too short for a stand-alone article; needs expansion.  Spencer T♦ C 18:57, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose. I don't think the level of casualties is enough to warrant posting it as an ITN item. 331dot (talk) 23:11, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Question - 28 casualties in a shooting is enough, but 27 in a crash isnt? TheOriginalSoni (talk) 23:14, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Answer - Yes. There is a difference between an accident which kills 27 people at once, and an individual who chooses to murder 28 people. Just like shooting one or two people isn't enough (I live in Miami, it's almost daily), but an A330 crashing into the ocean is enough. --IP98 (talk) 23:23, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes; as IP98 said, there is a difference between deliberate murder of (mostly) children and an accident. If the number of deaths in this incident is high enough to list in ITN purely based on the number, I have to wonder what would be the floor for the number of deaths in order to be listed. 5? 10? 20? 331dot (talk) 01:28, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I would say 20 would be a good number to start with, as long as you do not get other aggravating or (un)aggravating situations. Any number that high to be killed at once, and its bad enough to warrant being here.
 * And do note that had the number been somewhere aroung 200, there would have been no doubt on whether to include it or not. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 05:33, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I raised "what is the minimum deaths" once on WT:ITN and no one would touch it with a 10 foot (3 m) pole. --IP98 (talk) 01:38, 26 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support. Terrible crash. NickSt (talk) 00:09, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. It's getting good coverage around the world, and I was surprised to find it as a headline at CBC. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  01:06, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support - The news has recieved quite a good coverage throughout the world, and needs to be added. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 05:33, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - This article still requires considerable expansion before posting. It is barely 1100 characters at present - Dumelow (talk) 10:07, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support, notable event. Mikael Häggström (talk) 10:34, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posted --  tariq abjotu  00:40, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted to RD] Death of Charles Durning

 * Support. Feted stage actor; Tony and Drama Desk awards seal it for me (though to note, he didn't actually win an Oscar for his screen work). GRAPPLE   X  21:21, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support per Grapple. Suggest removing the "same day as Jack Klugman" bit from his article though. It doesn't really add anything. --IP98 (talk) 22:03, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support The Huffington Post has called Klugman and Durning the "Titans of Character Acting". Here is not the place to make the bad suggestion that we remove what notable sources say from articles. μηδείς (talk) 22:08, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for ticker As someone who hates the death ticker, I always hesitate before supporting nominations, but in this case I'm convinced by the notability and suitability for the front page doktorb wordsdeeds 01:39, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Even with the ticker, we must resist the temptation to post every actor who dies. Almost by definition, a character actor will usually be a lower-tier celebrity, and that seems to be the case here. I have a hunch that although many moviegoers would recognize the actor, few would be able to say, "Oh yeah, that's Charles Durning." He has had a nice career, but not an exceptional one. I frankly wouldn't have posted Klugman either, although I enjoyed the work of both actors. --Bongwarrior (talk) 01:58, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * What temptation? Whether we list someone or not is not about "resisting temptation".  ITN/RD was designed for exactly this situation, when more than one notable person dies in a week.  Durning certainly qualifies as notable, as his "King of the Character Actors" and "Titan" description in the media attests.  As for the recognizability argument, who in the world would recognize Dina Manfredini other than her townspeople?  The point of listing in cases like this is to connect the people to the article, not to show our skill at temptation-resisting dieting as editors.  If I didn't know who Durning was, but loved him as Pappy O'Daniel in O Brother, Where Art Thou?, I'd be particularly thankful for the editors of Wikipedia for helping me make that connection.  To suggest we need to resist that is contrary to the very mission of the project. μηδείς (talk) 06:10, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Being notable isn't enough, and the function of the ticker isn't to post every notable death. It still has to meet the death criteria, and I don't think this one does. Was he a good actor, with many roles? Sure. Was he "widely regarded as a very important figure in his or her field"? I honestly don't think so, unless you sufficiently narrow his field to "character acting". This is basically a nomination for that guy who was in that thing, and I would hope our standards haven't relaxed that much. --Bongwarrior (talk) 06:38, 26 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose per bongwarrior. We can't put up every b-list Hollywood actor, and that seems to be what he was for the most part.  The theater work is perhaps more compelling but at the end of the day actors in the US are considered great for their work on screen.--Johnsemlak (talk) 15:14, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The Sources NYT: "Extraordinary Actors Ennobling the Ordinary" "an astonishing 207 acting credits" "household-name status" HuffPo "Character Actor Titans" " storied careers" "Klugman and Durning reign supreme" Telegraph "World War Two hero who became one of Hollywood's top character actors" NPR "king of the character actors". How this doesn't amount to top of one's field beats me. μηδείς (talk) 17:00, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe the ITN candidates need only be lead role actors to avail a RD after their deaths. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 17:08, 26 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support - Academy nominated, 9 emmy nominations, 3 golden globe nominations and one golden globe winning performance, and 1 tony award. B-list is not exactly what I would call him. Definitely a candidate for RD ticker. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 17:06, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Ready? The article is updated, there's 3-1 support for this nom, with opposes being based not on the nom itself but on opposition to posting actors.  Can an admin comment if there is some other impediment to posting this?  Otherwise I think it is ready to go. μηδείς (talk) 19:08, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I have no opposition to posting actors. I oppose this particular actor because I don't think he is notable enough for ITN. I thought I had made that clear enough. --Bongwarrior (talk) 20:48, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That's fine, Bongwarrior. Consensus at this point, however, is to post and the sources are unequivocal, so i am wondering if there is some other reason this hasn't been marked ready.  Given I have listed myself as an updater I don't want to do so, but I do believe it is ready. μηδείς (talk) 21:32, 26 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support - Significant in his field. I'll mark it ready, so we can post it. Jus  da  fax   23:57, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support This is the type of person the death ticker is meant for, at least to me.   Hot Stop     (Talk)   03:22, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posted to RD, cheers - Dumelow (talk) 09:41, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted to RD] Death of Arthur Quinlan

 * Neutral yes, prolific. Could probably meet ITN/DC #2, but the article doesn't support it. --IP98 (talk) 13:28, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose user 86.40.201.132 below has shown me that Quinlan does not pass ITN/DC #2. --IP98 (talk) 18:38, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Might I ask in what way? --86.40.201.132 (talk) 18:45, 25 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support plenty of firsts and notable accomplishments in his article, there will be plenty of reader interest. μηδείς (talk) 17:51, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Which would those be? "He would simply start up his 1939 Morris 8 and head for the airport."? Any awards won? Special recognition from his peers? --IP98 (talk) 18:01, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Honorary member of the NUJ as it seems you hadn't noticed it in his article. Also being recognised and referred to by the name of your city/location of birth is pretty significant. Or would you prefer actual trophies and medals? This is journalism, not sport, not music, not film. --86.40.201.132 (talk) 18:13, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The NUJ bit is deadlinked, and it's a trade union. Looks like they gave an 80 year old member "member of honour" status. For the awards, Pulitzer Prize is a start, off the top of my head. I mean, the whole article reads like the story of a cooky old man who trundled off in his 39 Morris to interview people at the airport. Am I missing something? --IP98 (talk) 18:22, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The Pulitzer Prize is a U.S. only award. Your objection is that he failed to win an award he was ineligible for? And the type of car he drove even comes into it? I doubt very much he was a "cooky old man" all through the 20th century. Or maybe the reason he was so successful was because he was a "cooky old man", that is if he was one? --86.40.201.132 (talk) 18:29, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The Pulitzer Prize is a U.S. only award. Your objection is that he failed to win an award he was ineligible for? Nope, and didn't say that. You stated that This is journalism, not sport, not music, not film. I was merely pointing out that there are awards for journalism. And the type of car he drove even comes into it? Nope. Type of car is totally irrelevant. The question remains, totally unanswered, did he do anything in his long career other than interview celebrities at the airport? --IP98 (talk) 18:33, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * There's more to his biography than him driving to an airport and the politicians and royalty mentioned are not minor celebrities. I don't know what else you expect journalists to do. He did his job. He didn't win an Olympic medal, he didn't make pop music, he didn't kill anyone. But he did his job. --86.40.201.132 (talk) 18:44, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Politicians, popes, kings, movie stars, all celebrities in different categories for different reasons. He did his job, sure did. That's 100% correct, but simply doing ones job does not make that person "widely regarded as a very important figure in his or her field". As such, this item fails ITN/DC #2, and if ITN/DC matters at all anymore, this should be vigorously opposed. --IP98 (talk) 18:54, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * There are no high profile awards for Irish journalism, so asking whether he won one or not is entirely useless; he never won the Superbowl either. GRAPPLE   X  18:39, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I hope, IP 86, you see how frustrating it is to have a valid nomination met with ridiculously piddling and contrarian opposition. μηδείς (talk) 20:07, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * You're accusing me of "ridiculously piddling and contrarian opposition"? --IP98 (talk) 22:14, 25 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support for RD, very influential journalist Secret account 17:57, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for ticker And I say this as someone who hates the ticker. Significant enough for a mention on the front page and the article seems to be in a largely good state doktorb wordsdeeds 18:31, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * he has had a unique opportunity to meet and interview countless world leaders and stars as they passed through the airport. and He would simply start up his 1939 Morris 8 and head for the airport. should probably be rewritten. Doesn't seem to fit with the WP:MOS. --IP98 (talk) 18:40, 25 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support. Only a televised special behind David Frost in terms of notability; even then his actual work is arguably more important. GRAPPLE   X  18:37, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment what work is important? Interviewing people at the airport? What? --IP98 (talk) 18:40, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * If you maybe want to drop that bone and stop badgering, you'd notice that Quinlan was the sole Westerner able to interview Che Guevara, one of the century's defining figures, which is slightly more notable and important than being privy to a glorified press conference by Richard Nixon. There's also the matter of being a neutral interviewer of Cold War leaders from both sides (Reagan, Carter, Johnson, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Gromyko, Castro...) along with a key religious leader. But no, it's ok, he did all that from the back of a Morris so fuck him. GRAPPLE   X  18:48, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The Morris has nothing to do with it. So he interviewed famous and important people: thats what journalists do. We can't post the death of every old newspaper reporter. Any major stories? Investigative journalism? The NUJ is 100 years old with 38000 members, does it not have any recognition other than "honoured old man"? --IP98 (talk) 18:57, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Ready? This article definitely seems technically updated and ready. But since I cannot judge the praise heaped on Quinlan from the Limerick Leader I'll leave it to someone else to add the [Ready] tag. μηδείς (talk) 20:07, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for ticker only. Doesn't quite cut it for a full blurb. Black Kite (talk) 20:16, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The article seems a bit hagiographic. What's this line about the first Irishman to get a jet across the Atlantic about?  Overall I don't think the article is very good. Neutral otherwise.--Johnsemlak (talk) 15:10, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posted to RD -- Jayron  32  18:20, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted to RD] Death of Jack Klugman

 * Support for Recent deaths, noted actor through the decades. Jus  da  fax   12:06, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment Here we go again... 87.114.90.71 (talk) 12:46, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose sorry, ticker or not, I see no reason to abandon ITN/DC. The deceased was (1) not in a high ranking office of power, (3) the death has not impacted current events, and (2) I see no evidence from the article that the deceased was widely regarded as important in their field. Beloved sure, for a time, but important, no. The death ticker was conceived and implemented to deal with the unmanageable flood of recent deaths which met the ITN/DC requirement. This does not. --IP98 (talk) 13:13, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for ticker. Lead actor in two long-running hit series, notable roles from 12 Angry Men til his death.  There will be quite a bit of reader interest, similar to the recent posting of the TV astronomer and certainly more justified than Dina Manfredini. Checkviews shows a long-running average of over a 1000 hits a day  well before news of his death. μηδείς (talk) 17:48, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Those wrongs don't make this right. There was no consensus to abandon ITN/DC when the ticker was implemented. --IP98 (talk) 17:49, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * There was nothing wrong with the posting of the astronomer. Quincy is even airing right now in Australia. Hardly an unknown figure. μηδείς (talk) 18:03, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * On what, the "40 year old reruns network"? It's a really simple test: Was Klugman "widely regarded as a very important figure in his or her field." or not? --IP98 (talk) 18:08, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Let me make sure I understand. Your complaint is his 40 year old reruns are being rerun on a rerun network?  Rather than where?  He's a classic. μηδείς (talk) 20:14, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Patrick Moore was presenter of the world's longest-running television series with the same original presenter; Manfredini was the world's oldest living person, the oldest recorded Italian-born person, the 10th oldest person ever recorded, and the longest-living immigrant. What did this guy do to match those two in terms of encyclopedic newsworthiness? From the details presented here, absolutely nothing. --86.40.201.132 (talk) 18:08, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It's a really simple test: Was Klugman "widely regarded as a very important figure in his or her field." or not? --IP98 (talk) 18:23, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Assuming good faith on your part in asking that question, yes, he was an iconic lead on two TV hit shows, one a Drama that foreshadowed all the modern day forensic dramas, and the other a comedy, as well as being recognized for his film roles, his overcoming throat cancer and the loss of his voice to return to acting, and his legal battles over actor's compensation. Plus see the over 1,000 hits a day for his article linked to above predating his death. μηδείς (talk) 20:14, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Does that make him a very important figure in his field? Your first statement is a nice piece of WP:OR, if he was that groundbreaking, find a WP:RS that says it and add it to his article. Throat cancer == nothing to do with being important in his field. Suing NBC and settling out of court somehow makes him battling for actors compensation?? Lastly, if checkviews had any importance whatsoever then you would have been tripping over us to heap support upon gangnam style. --IP98 (talk) 22:24, 25 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment: Article needs a bit of TLC: There is a section with a refimprove tag, and the Filmography section needs cleanup.  Spencer T♦ C 17:56, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I have removed the unreferenced bits of the talk show section. I see the cleanup tag with the filmography section, but am not sure what's the matter. μηδείς (talk) 18:16, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * This is what that section looked like before. I'm not sure if removing all of the problem areas out of the article is the best solution, but the article is in better shape now.  Spencer T♦ C 18:50, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I think the tag is asking for more than just a bullet-pointed list. in an ideal world something like this could be put together, but for what we're asking I'd say the filmography is fine as is. Could remove the tag safely or just overlook it for a posting as it's not a vital concern (like cn or refimprove section would be). GRAPPLE   X  18:55, 25 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support He was Quincy! Seriously though, please don't bring back that recent death ticker. Total chocolate fireguard.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 18:11, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * But this is a "recent deaths" nomination. You surely aren't suggesting that this guy be given the full honors!? --86.40.201.132 (talk) 18:15, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I am. And don't call me Shirley.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 19:12, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I haven't seen anything like this since the Anita Bryant concert. --86.40.201.132 (talk) 21:24, 25 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support for ticker. While not unexpected, this has been covered by quite a few news outlets on both sides of the bitter ITN divide. GRAPPLE   X  18:55, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Ready I have removed the cleanup tag, as the red links and strange formatting have been removed. I have added another few sentences on the death itself to buck-up the update requirement.  There seems to be only token opposition versus widespread support and all the technical barriers have been removed, so I am marking this ready. μηδείς (talk) 19:58, 25 December 2012 (UTC)7
 * Support for ticker only. Black Kite (talk) 20:16, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posted to RD ticker -- Jayron  32  23:12, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted] Egyptian constitutional referendum

 * Support Major Egyptian development. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 15:15, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support, dito. Mikael Häggström (talk) 16:44, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support This is big news for Egypt, despite some opposition leaders calling the referendum fraud. -- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 16:47, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: I added more about what the Amendment itself proposed in the article, but the item blurb could also perhaps be more descriptive, saying what the amendment was about? In addition, preferably the article should have some mention of the results to the referendum if possible. Otherwise, the article is in good shape.  Spencer T♦ C 19:51, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Slightly more insistent comment. This really should not be posted until the article contains details of the results of the referendum. Formerip (talk) 19:57, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Pile-on insistence. Wait for the results, which are supposed to come in tomorrow. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  21:41, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support per the reasons given. 331dot (talk) 21:07, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support but could the blurb provide a little more detail? Any sort of structure approved that's worth mentioning? – Muboshgu (talk) 21:11, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I think the main story is that the constituation is generally considered quite Islamist-friendly, but it's difficult to discuss this in a blurb without heading into POV territory. LukeSurlt c 22:26, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * There will probably be some sort of reaction to the result and that could potentially be mentioned in the blurb. Formerip (talk) 00:41, 24 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support Thine Antique Pen (talk) 21:50, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support - Yes, it is ITN material but I agree that waiting 'till Monday is a good idea. It's just a day away. Jus  da  fax   00:38, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Official results will be delayed till tomorrow . Anyone going to be around here on Christmas day? --LukeSurlt c 19:19, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support, but I agree with Muboshgu that the current blurb needs more details. I'd like to see the election numbers, once they're released.-- xanchester  (t)  08:48, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It's official -- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 00:14, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Just need some responses to the result and it's good to go. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  01:01, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support, a major development. Nsk92 (talk) 23:58, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posting. I've added Egyptian_constitutional_referendum,_2012. I can't say I'm thrilled with the current wording, but I can't think of anything better and I'm sure someone will come up with something better at WP:ERRORS.  Spencer T♦ C 04:09, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Sachin Tendulkar retires from One Day Internationals

 * Support; while I know little of the world of cricket, this person seems to be regarded as one of the greatest players ever, so his retirement is notable. 331dot (talk) 10:12, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose as he's still playing Test cricket. If it had been a retirement for all forms of the game (at the highest level), then I'd support the Little Master.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 10:30, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Although I agree that Test cricket is considered to be the superior form of cricket, the fact that the greatest player in a particular format has retired is definitely noteworthy. If we look at his personal achievements, Test records are not so impressive as ODIs. One can say that he was the best ODI batsman ever, but not Tests/First-class cricket. &mdash; Vensatry  (Ping me)  12:28, 23 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose, a fantastic cricket player, but the feat of retiring is not in itself extraordinary. Mikael Häggström (talk) 11:17, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Very weak support. Because we really should post something about something at some point. Formerip (talk) 11:40, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose Not the first time he has left a particular format only to return at a later date. Maybe when he retires from all forms of the game. Leaky  Caldron  11:44, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm also not supporting this story being posted (see below), but could you please tell me when Sachin has "left a particular format only to return at a later date"? I've been following cricket, especially Indian cricket, since 1992. I cant seem to recollect this at all. Chocolate Horlicks (talk) 13:25, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * No idea, but according to respected cricket journalist Ed Smith (cricketer), he has opted out in the past - at 1:04:20 in this broadcast this morning . Leaky  Caldron  14:53, 23 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose When he retires from the first-class game completely, yes. Now, no. Black Kite (talk) 11:46, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose I'm very much of the view that he deserves a place on the front page, as highly regarded and notable that he is. But as has been said, he needs to retire from everything before we nominate him 'properly'. doktorb wordsdeeds 12:34, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Wait for full retirement: I'm a huge Tendulkar fan, but lets wait for his retirement from all forms of international cricket. Chocolate Horlicks (talk) 13:20, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support If the greatest cricketer retires from a very popular format of the game, it is surely a big news (although a sad one). ♛♚★Vaibhav Jain★♚♛  Talk Email 13:29, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose now, oppose when he fully retires, support recent deaths. Cricket might be very popular in a few countries, and no doubt Tendulkar is a very accomplished player, but we can't go posting the retirement of every star athlete in every sport. --76.110.201.132 (talk) 13:41, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Cricket is the second most popular sport in the world. --86.40.99.242 (talk) 14:51, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * According the ever reliable BBC, basketball is the 2nd most popular sport. On that website you cited, it says baseball is more popular than basketball, which is a load of bull lol
 * Anyway, while football (soccer) is the most popular sport in the world without a doubt, the second most popular sport is a lot murkier. – H T  D  15:19, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Bog snorkling? Formerip (talk) 15:57, 23 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose. While the above comment about "we can't go posting the retirement of every star athlete in every sport" is correct on its face, I think that the retirement of one of a sport's legends would merit a note. However, Tendulkar is not retiring from Cricket. He's basically just removed himself from consideration for the Indian national team. Resolute 16:09, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Very strong support: Some editors here have told they'd support after his retirement from Test cricket! But, note after his retirement from One Day cricket, everyone knows and expects he'll retire from Test Cricket too sooner later.. and count IPL, and Ranji, and state level etc. Everyone knows these are going to happen. For example, retirement of Sourav Ganguly or Rahul Dravid their first retirement decision got most attention and coverages. For next one or two years they kept on retiring from different forms of the game. And finally Ganguly's retirement from IPL or state level got almost no media attention (or far less attention than what he got at first)! I don't think we should wait for Tendulkar's Test retirement, since even after retiring from Tests he may continue playing IPL or State level cricket (as Warne, Gilchrist etc have done)! Then what you'll say? Wait for Tendukar's IPL retirement or wait for his Ranji retirement? So, unless it is a complete retirement from all types of the game in a single day (which is not very uncommon too), it is better to highlight it first. So, Now. I don't recommend to keep this event for future ITN, since it'll be a "news of a retirement who had already retired"! Wikipedia is not WP:CRYSTAL and if the player's name is Sachin Tendulkar anyone can not predict anything. Can anyone predict here that even after retiring from One Day Sachin is not going to play in Test Cricket for another 2 or 3 years? Hm? So, please NOW --Tito Dutta (talk) 16:51, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * On this basis of this muddled rationale I would be tempted to say never. Leaky  Caldron  16:56, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I know (think) he will get official farewell, highest civilian honours and some comments from most powerful and reputed people of the nation after his Test retirement, but 1) we don't know when he is going to retire from Test Cricket 2) if he is continuing to play IPL, Ranji, State cricket even after his Test retirement! So, Wait for full retirement (as said above) does not sound logical! I don't want to say "Never", so I am tempted to say "now" --Tito Dutta (talk) 17:11, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Retiring from proper International cricket (not IPL) is a recognisable milestone not too far away. While he still swings his bat for India he has not retired and could even make a comeback at one day level. Would that be yet another ITN followed by another when he finally retires? There's no rush. Leaky  Caldron  17:18, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That's a good point! After his retirement from Test Cricket, we may need another ITN (specially if he is given Bharat Ratna or something similar like President of India attending his last test). But, you have said not too far away, I am not sure! I personally think he is going to play at least one more year in Test Crickets! Of course, my opinion has no value. I'll keep an eye on experts' opinions on Sachin's Test retirement! Yet, I don't think he is going to retire soon! He is Tendukar after all! :) --Tito Dutta (talk) 17:31, 23 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose Since when do we post athletes retiring? Big news in its sport, yes. Big news to the world? Come on. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:44, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Although he's definitely one of the greatest batsmen ever, he's only retiring from ODIs. It would be a bit of a borderline case even if he was retiring from all forms of cricket, but he isn't. (oh and regardless of what the IPL fans might say, Test cricket is still the ultimate form of the game, and Tendulkar is still playing Tests) Modest Genius talk 23:45, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted] December 2012 Delhi protests

 * Support Nationwide protests, being covered by international news media and n news agencies too! --Tito Dutta (talk) 13:54, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment. I don't think these protests are about one particular case, but in relation to the general safety situation in the city; the protests may have been set off by this case. MikeLynch (talk) 14:07, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * These protests are primarily about that one particular case only. The reason they have drawn so many is because of the general safety situation. Though I agree that there isnt a significant difference between whether they are for one case, or in general. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 14:18, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I disagree. This incident might have been the tipping point, but the protests are surely not just about this case. I feel the blurb should be reworded to reflect it. At any rate, wording like "in a running bus" is unnecessary detail. MikeLynch (talk) 14:26, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I totally agree. It's not just about the incident. It's sorta about police incompetence/corruption in general. -- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 14:32, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * 3 times edit conflicts, last attempt to post: I also don't think these protests are about one particular case, but this particular case (which was very brutal one) seems to be the reason of these protests! (after edit conflict, Lynch's post) as MikeLynch has said tipping point. Lynch, those running bus etc is needed for identifier since you'll get a rape news from Delhi every 1/2 week(s) --Tito Dutta (talk) 14:35, 23 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Hold on, it's not just Delhi. One person died in a protest in Manipur..-- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 14:30, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * And five more eve teasers were lynched by a mob in Jharkhand.

Important development - Indian police say the anti-rape protests have been "hijacked" by hooligans and political activists. . -- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 15:42, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support re notability, though the article 2012 Delhi gang rape case focusses primarily on the case. Would need more content, in this article or in a seperate one, on the riots themselves. LukeSurlt c 15:47, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support But the hook needs some work. ♛♚★Vaibhav Jain★♚♛  Talk Email 16:28, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Yet this article refers to the case of an actress Momoko as well.  A broader scope to the blurb than the one case might help.  We also don't need such a big blurb including the locations and that the rape was done in a bus. μηδείς (talk) 17:56, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Do suggest an alternate blurb then. Being new to this process, I am not exactly sure how the proper changes could be reflected on the blurb TheOriginalSoni (talk) 18:52, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Altblurb I would suggest something like "After deadly protests against a gang rape and other crimes, India bans gatherings of more than five people." I have only read the one report, someone with mare familiarity might suggest better piped links. Yours is not a bad blurb in any case. μηδείς (talk) 19:02, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Nay, that ban on unlawful gatherings has been applied too frequently for it to merit an ITN spot. I was thinking something like "Following a a gang rape in Delhi, protesters gather near the Indian Parliament to protest against the safety situation of women in the city". Maybe it's too long? MikeLynch (talk) 19:15, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The ban on gatherings is not the news item the blurb is hung on, the deadly riots are, the ban being a reaction. We don't need to say protesters protest, and that it's against the gang rape and other crimes makes it obvious the concern is with women's safety, so we don't need to say they protest against gang rape and for women's safety.  Ideally if we use a blurb like mine we could link other crimes to Rape in India, or another relevant article crime/women's safety in india.  We can also replace the ban on gatherings with some more important reaction, if there is one.  The uproar seems to be widespread, so I am not sure there is any need to mention near the Indian Parliament. μηδείς (talk) 20:25, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Linking to Rape in India is a good idea; I agree with your wording for the blurb. The reaction seems to be limited to police action like tear gas, water cannons and baton charge though. MikeLynch (talk) 20:33, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I've written an altblurb above that is at the brevity end of the spectrum, Please edit as you see fit. LukeSurlt c 21:03, 23 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support - lead world news story--top on NYT, second-highest on Al Jazeera. -- Khazar2 (talk) 19:23, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support - the Altblurb is fine like this. Wiki-uk (talk) 21:54, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posted the alt-blurb.  Spencer T♦ C 00:15, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Well done. μηδείς (talk) 03:40, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this is good. MikeLynch (talk) 04:27, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed. A lot better blurb than any other possible candidates. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 15:25, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Mario Monti resigns

 * Weak oppose. From what I can read, it seems like this resignation was planned ahead of time(he said he would do so after the budget passed) and not precipitated by a scandal or alleged illegal activities.  That knocks it down a little on the notability scale for me. 331dot (talk) 22:55, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Wait We're gonna post the results of the election per ITN/R, so I don't see why this needs to be posted twice. It's the new government that will be newsworthy. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:59, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose This resignation was planned, so not particularly news-worthy. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 13:17, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Wait. This is a procedural part of the election process. Wait for the election results. Modest Genius talk 15:34, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It isn't a part of the election process. Formerip (talk) 16:08, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Really? Then I misunderstood this Guardian report, which is where I first read the news. Modest Genius</b> talk 13:55, 24 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose per the BBC article "President Napolitano accepted the resignation and called on Mr Monti to remain as head of an interim administration until the elections, which analysts say will most probably be held on 24 February." Unless I'm reading that wrong, he's still prime minister, at least in everything but name.    Hot Stop     (Talk)   16:34, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Hot Soup. Thine Antique Pen (talk) 21:26, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Of all the misspellings of my name, that's my favorite so far.  Hot Stop     (Talk)   00:26, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Gangnam Style reaches one billion views

 * I would love to support more light-hearted ITN's like these, but I know that one really can only oppose currently. (And I would have used the point where it surpassed the highest-view video that was about 2 months ago as the key factor, since I'm sure there were people page-spamming to trip the counter) --M ASEM (t) 19:09, 21 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Realistically, oppose. But, support per IAR - 1 billion is a pretty major milestone. Thine Antique Pen (talk) 19:11, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Just... oppose.--WaltCip (talk) 19:23, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose Lighthearted, yes, but not really news. It's an internet phenomenon (we've already known this) being an internet phenomenon. DYK if there's an eligible article. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:37, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support - It's a world record. Definitely deserves mention. -- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 19:39, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose Exceeding a milestone of one billion visits is a remarkable achievement, but not a world record of a very big importance as mentioned above. There are plenty of such consuming records that happen every day in different industries, while this one has never been considered something so special in music. Yet, it's even hard to classify it being a news.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 19:48, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose "A bit silly, perhaps". Yes, quite. It's very easy to press F5, and for that matter programme a computer to do so, making the 1 billion figure (or 1 thousand million in the UK ;)) is just an arbitrary mark without any real hard evidence. On top of all that, it's just no important enough for the front page. We always, rightly, reject this sort of tech buzz and I can't see why this is any different. Utter candyfloss. doktorb wordsdeeds 19:50, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Google does a very good job of user tracking and avoiding robots. --76.110.201.132 (talk) 21:41, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Seems newsworthy to me. We post sports records all the time: most football goals in a season and batting 100 centuries to name a few (the latter being totally arbitrary). This video went ultra-viral, and that's a major achievement these days, I think everyone here recognizes that. If there is room for a blurb about a million year old sitar player, there is room for Gangnam Style. --76.110.201.132 (talk) 21:41, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That sitar player was a pioneer and a groundbreaking talent. This video is a quirky cartoon. I think we all know your point is invalid. doktorb wordsdeeds 21:54, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * How many views would be enough? --76.110.201.132 (talk) 22:07, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * For ITN? There is no figure for me to be okay with. Maybe we can bung this to DYK, it's trivial enough for them. We're Wikipedia, not BuzzFeed doktorb wordsdeeds 22:08, 21 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Neutral:It's fairly significant, but not along the lines of what we'd normally post. Ryan Vesey 22:00, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose. It might be notable, but ITN is not the "world records set" feed. Putting this would set a negative precedent to have all sorts of world records in ITN. 331dot (talk) 22:52, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose This is not news: it is a contrived statistic. Kevin McE (talk) 23:21, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Question. Since a billion is beyond the realms of human comprehension, has this particular t'interweb virus now become quite meaningless? Surely its cultural significance now lies purely with its parodies, many of which are clearly better: . Martinevans123 (talk) 23:40, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. It's not even a real billion. GRAPPLE   X  23:42, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose unless someone can come up with a convincing theory whereby this is the fulfilment of an ancient end-of-the-world prophecy. Formerip (talk) 23:47, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose. Although I find the video awesome, I have to agree with 331dot that it might lower the bar for less serious news in ITN in the future. (And if any single performance would be responsible for any end of the world, I think it would rather be Friday or Baby .) Mikael Häggström (talk) 09:10, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose especially as much of that "billion" was achieved by Internet and social media spamming. At one point, around 10% of all Twitter postings containing currently trending hashtags were spoof ones sending people to this video. Black Kite (talk) 09:19, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Arbitrary number which means nothing. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 15:35, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

New state of matter

 * Comment Seems to be a pretty huge scientific achievement and MIT is surely a party that lays a strong scientific verification, but on this stage it's difficult to judge whether it's generally accepted or not.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 16:43, 21 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support -News about this seems to emphasize on the the findings' implications. -- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 16:43, 21 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Wait The article is incomprehensible to layman. The lead should at least attempt to address the matter in a more layman friendly matter. μηδείς (talk) 18:23, 21 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose Scientists discover that they can create something that is a bit different from anything else. Mutual back patting among those involved, who I'm sure must be feeling very clever, but until there is any practical application, or evidence that it has entered into the non specialist public awareness, it is not of sufficient interest or import. Kevin McE (talk) 18:26, 21 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Neutral and comment: As far as I can tell, this isn't really a new state of matter. It's a new type of magnetic organisation within an existing state of matter (a crystal, which is a type of solid). It seems a bit technical for our readership - more like something you would read in New Scientist or Physics World. Interesting, but not sufficiently wide-ranging to interest the general wikipedia reader. I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise, but at the moment I can't support. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 19:07, 21 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose. I'll second Kevin's comments here. 331dot (talk) 22:49, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. One of the few things I do know about particle physics is that if you describe a solid using the word "liquid" it is still a solid, so "new state of matter" is possibly a little misleading. In any event, the bolded article is impenetrable and the herbertsmithite article is a stub, and I predict neither of those things will change in time to post. Formerip (talk) 00:04, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose as per Kevin's comment, and it doesn't seem to have taken that much space in the media. Mikael Häggström (talk) 09:19, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: This is undoubtedly a major discovery with big implications for physics. However, it's disappointing that the main-stream media managed to miss this one, and as such I do not think we will be able to justify it's presence on WP front page. <font size="4" face="Brush Script MT"> S Pat <font color="black" size="1">talk 07:25, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

The end of the world

 * Kind of oppose. That article was TFA yesterday (a brilliant choice, indeed). --Tone 13:08, 21 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support only if the end of the world actually occurs. AlexTiefling (talk) 13:14, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Willing to post, then. --Tone 13:23, 21 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment Technically it would be better to wait a bit and post it at 22 December, 00:00 UTC after 21 December passes and nothing occurs. Brandmeistertalk  13:50, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * "man doesn't bite dog story"? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:19, 21 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose per above. We have never posted a failure of a doomsday theory, so no way it merits exception now. The calendar has reached its ending day but nothing special that can be classified as an important news has happened.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 13:55, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment. A little unclear where the calendar ends, as it were, and this article begins? A fair bit of apocalyptic overlap there, I think. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:15, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support, massive news covarage. Blurb: The 2012 phenomenon, associated with various doomsday theories, fails to occur. - Eugεn  S¡m¡on  (14) ®  14:28, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Dog doesn't bite man? AlexTiefling (talk) 14:49, 21 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support - It's notable, it has widespread coverage, it is of international interest, and is essentially a minority topic (religion/culture). What more is needed? Use Eugen's blurb.--WaltCip (talk) 14:37, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose Have we gone completely mad? We've had TWO Featured articles on this already, by the way, and in any case, if you want to start a precedent which requires us to put onto ITN every world calendar changeover, go ahead, but I won't have anything to do with it. This is just flash in the pan nominating which shouldn't make it to the front page doktorb wordsdeeds 14:46, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support This has been in the making for over 2 years. This is a big deal. Truthsort (talk) 14:56, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * don't you mean 4,000? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:15, 21 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose. This overblown nonsense over the basic misunderstanding of how calenders work has already been given over to two TFA slots this week, let's put the crop down and let the horse be buried. GRAPPLE   X  15:03, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. This was already TFA yesterday, and is still listed on the Main Page under today's blurb (which was also chosen with this date in mind). At best it's a light-hearted 'aren't they stupid' kind of story, which isn't the best choice for ITN. Nothing has actually happened. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 15:07, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Let's not. Since 2012 phenomenon was an FA, yesterday or today was really the only reasonable time to put it on the main page, so I've no problem with that. And I actually kind of like the choice of today's TFA.  But that's more than enough about this ridiculousness; it got old about a year ago. Let's not put it in ITN for a week, too. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:13, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose as "world doesn't end" is not really news. The TFA choice was an eloquent and sufficient way of dealing with this. LukeSurlt c 15:33, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose unless the end actually does happen, in which case I'd have other things to worry about other than Wikipedia. -- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 16:40, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Pile-on Oppose for all of the reasons above and every other reason you can think of. It's already (still) on the main page once; can't that be enough? -- Mike (Kicking222) 18:15, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose An interpretation that there is no evidence anyone ever intended as a prediction didn't come to pass. Let's treat our readers' with a bit more credit for their intelligence.  Kevin McE (talk) 18:19, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support This has been in the news for years, is all over the popular culture, and is happening today. Wikipedia is all our readers. μηδείς (talk) 18:26, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * But it was in the news for years through a misunderstanding and mickey-taking and hyperbole and fiction and most other such things. There was no "end of the world", there was a calendar changing, and we can't go putting calendar changes on ITN every few months. doktorb wordsdeeds 18:29, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The "every calendar change" comment is fatuous. This one is quite notable notable, having had even a blockbuster movie filmed about it. Our opinion of those who are interested in this phenomenon is irrelevant. Get back to me by 14.0.0.0.0 μηδείς (talk) 18:47, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * You get back to me when you nominate the new Ethiopian new year. Are you suggesting we nominate things based on Hollywood remakes? doktorb wordsdeeds 19:52, 21 December 2012 (UTC)


 * On This Day Actually, this would make a whole of sense in the On This Day section at the end of the line on the Solstice. How does one nominate that? μηδείς (talk) 19:29, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That... actually makes a lot of sense. It can at least be an "on this day" for Dec 21 2013 and beyond. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:39, 21 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose. Only notable if the world actually did end. 331dot (talk) 22:50, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * So I guess it's about finding sources...Formerip (talk) 00:45, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
 * If "finding sources" means "stroking our elitist egos"? Then yes. μηδείς (talk) 03:47, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Amnon Lipkin-Shahak - recent death

 * ...and wholly without importance for the front page. We wouldn't accept him as front page nomination material normally, certainly not with the fixed, fudged and wholly unworkable ticker system. A very clear and obvious oppose from me . 22:42, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: Needs more expansion about his career and what made him notable for this to be RD-worthy.  Spencer T♦ C 23:34, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support- I would normally oppose people like this, but because of the unique position of the IDF in the world as both pioneering in military technology and constantly involved in actual fighting, the chief of the IDF is one of the most important figures in Israel and in national defense.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 03:22, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose, of strictly national interest, just a careerist. Abductive  (reasoning) 04:22, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Suppport why not? I'm not clear on what criteria RD has to fulfill, so until then I'll just support every one that appears here. 130.188.8.27 (talk) 08:26, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point --LukeSurlt c 08:29, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - I wouldn't support a nom for his UK or US equivalent, either. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:10, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I agree with AlexT- this person was a government functionary performing his duty; not particularly notable. 331dot (talk) 11:53, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Peter Struck - recent death

 * Comment: Peter_Struck is too brief for someone of such great importance. The whole article could use some expansion.  Spencer T♦ C 22:24, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose completely Not important enough for the front page, so neither blurb nor ticker doktorb wordsdeeds 22:43, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose completely. A relatively minor government official only. 331dot (talk) 03:16, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose- As previously mentioned, he wasn't even that big of a government official.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 03:22, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Purely national interest. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:13, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Robert Bork - recent death

 * Support for ticker per reasoning given. 331dot (talk) 16:24, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for ticker, not notable enough for full blurb but a hallmark name in US politics. --M ASEM (t) 16:34, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support ticker Warrants major coverage in many RS. --hydrox (talk) 17:13, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Is everyone involved in the Watergate scandal going to be on the ticker then? Why are Americans, especially politicians, judges and celebrities, getting such an easy ride on the death ticker? That's Daniel Inouye, Dina Manfredini, Dave Brubeck, Jenni Rivera, Marvin Miller, Joseph Murray, Héctor Camacho (spent first three years of life in Puerto Rico), Larry Hagman, Jacques Barzun, Russell Means, George McGovern in about seven weeks, routinely with about two at the same time in quick succession. Some of these should certainly be there but it's just too much. Anyone from anywhere else has to prove beyond all doubt that they're important enough. Has any other part of the world had even more than one? India might have had about two, maybe Britain. The remainder could probably be counted on the fingers of one hand. Have the standards been lowered or something? --86.40.195.205 (talk) 19:10, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Heh. I was about to say that the proponents of the ticker would've never thought that it would be swamped by Americans. – H T  D  19:21, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I knew someone was going to bring up the AMERICAN BIAS argument. Wasn't sure who it was going to be, though. This oppose vote has no comment on Bork himself. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:30, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The nomination has next to no comment on Bork for crying out loud! U.S. Supreme Court nomination (one of many) + involvement in the Watergate scandal (one of many)? That's nowhere near enough. The oppose "Is everyone involved in the Watergate scandal going to be on the ticker then?" is just as worthy as the support for him getting a U.S. Supreme Court nomination and involvement in the Watergate scandal.
 * Uh, the nomination is all about who Bork was, what made him notable. I suppose I could've described him as a leading conservative scholar on originalism, but you can see that in the article as well. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:18, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * This is what the nomination says with parts relating to Bork in bold for emphasis: "My second recent death nom this week. While I was sure that Inouye deserved to be posted, Bork is definitely more marginal, but I'm nominating anyway. His nomination to the Supreme Court of the United States was pretty landmark, and it paved the way for more contentious SCOTUS confirmation hearings that continue today. He was also involved in the Watergate scandal."


 * This is what makes him notable? This is why he should go on the ticker? His rejection was left out until someone mentioned it further down. --86.40.195.205 (talk) 22:40, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Probably shouldn't have said "more marginal", but I meant in comparison to Inouye, and I'd say that Inouye's clear passage to recent deaths than this nom proved me right. His nomination was landmark, and probably made him more notable than he would've been if he had been confirmed. My statement was merely an opener, and if you had read the article, you would've seen what was "landmark" about the nomination. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:22, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Please explain how his failure can have made him more notable. There is nothing in the article and nothing has been presented here to suggest this is the case. --86.40.195.205 (talk) 01:01, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * The answer to 86.40's question " Why are Americans...getting such an easy ride on the death ticker" is because you, 86.40, haven't improved an article or nominated one to ITNC. Give us a non-American to put up there.  Improve their article to where it is main page worthy.  Show us sources that consider the death to itself be noteworthy.  Or, you could just complain and never see the problem fixed.  That could happen too.  Oh, wait, that just did.  -- Jayron  32  19:57, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * You don't know me and you don't know what I do or don't do so I'll ignore the personal barb. The oppose asked if everyone connected to the Watergate scandal was going to be put on the ticker. The oppose wanted to know why Americans whom not everyone has heard of are given little detail and how these are expected to be judged by non-Americans, when non-Americans have to go through such forensic detail to get close. A nomination to the U.S. Supreme Court and involvement in the Watergate scandal. That's all anyone has to go on. And when anyone questions this sort of thing, who isn't an expert on U.S. politics and courts, who isn't interested in U.S. politics and courts, they're looked down upon at best, maliciously attacked at worst. --86.40.195.205 (talk) 21:02, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose, very old, of strictly national interest, did not achieve the office. Abductive  (reasoning) 20:51, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * He didn't even achieve the office? That's even worse! --86.40.195.205 (talk) 21:03, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * He was most notable for the way he was rejected from SCOTUS. He was a United States Circuit Judge, Solicitor General, and acting Attorney General. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:20, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * What way was he rejected? This has been made completely unclear in this nomination. It is as if everyone is supposed to know about it or something. A "Circuit Judge, Solicitor General, and acting Attorney General" is not much more convincing than a Supreme Court rejection. --86.40.195.205 (talk) 22:25, 19 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment: An Israeli politician and a German politician, both of whom went further than a nomination, also died today. Bork hardly even qualifies as death of the day. --86.40.195.205 (talk) 21:11, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * So nominate one of them and stop complaining about this nomination. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:20, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * But I'd oppose all of them. I was just saying these sort of people die routinely every day across the world. --86.40.195.205 (talk) 23:41, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: How is anyone who doesn't know who he is supposed to be convinced by this? The article doesn't even make it clear. "A hotly contested United States Senate debate", some "strong condemnation" from Ted Kennedy, his video rental history(?!) and lots of uncited material about a rejection. How can this have so much support? Is everybody blind? --86.40.195.205 (talk) 22:31, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * They won't be convinced by the way you lay out your arguments. Those two articles are certainly much more barren than Bork's, suggesting they've made far less impact. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:26, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Bork has a ton of uncited material. His claim to fame seems to be his failure to reach high office. He was an old man. The nomination was very poorly laid out for anyone who was not familiar with him. Is that laid out a bit better? It's as if these people are just expected to walk onto the ticker with no opposition or something. Then when somebody does oppose it's a massive shock and the fireworks start. --86.40.195.205 (talk) 22:36, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for ticker His SCOTUS nom has WP:EFFECT. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 22:10, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * In what way? --86.40.195.205 (talk) 22:22, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Borking became a verb. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:26, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you. At last. But is that enough? How many people have their own words? Wasn't there something about Romneyshambles recently? And he didn't make it either. --86.40.195.205 (talk) 22:43, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Before Bork, the Senate rarely discussed SCOTUS noms, and more or less rubber stamped them. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 22:44, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh for crying out loud. Surely we can come up with a better candidate for the ticker than a failed, washed-out politician.--WaltCip (talk) 22:28, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * How about a leading scholar in his field? That'd be Bork. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:23, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The nomination placed emphasis on Bonk's unsuccessful court attempt and an involvement in the Watergate scandal. This is hardly the sort of thing a leader is known for. At least he has his own verb I suppose. --86.40.195.205 (talk) 00:58, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose for front page As above, really. Simply not important enough for the front page under our usual measure, so the ticker doesn't change that. doktorb wordsdeeds 22:44, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment This whole circus is really getting draining now. Here's a suggestion: scrap the ticker, and never give any deaths a full blurb either. I don't care if it's Obama committing suicide on live television on Christmas Fucking Day – if we don't post deaths, we won't have to go through this pathetic rigmarole on an almost daily basis. There is other news to report apart from minor-level American politicians snuffing it, and these arguments are not worth having. 87.114.90.71 (talk) 23:19, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I wholly agree. This is another example of a completely ludicrous sideshow where pigeons are fighting over crumbs for the sake of boasting about getting a bit of crust. Since the death ticker took over ITN/C, I've noticed that valid nominations are being sidelined or allowed to go stale, and all for the sake of admins (in particular) to rub themselves into cheap thrills. We've had enough time to see the damage the death ticker is doing to ITN/C, let's abandon it now, for the sake of the entire project. doktorb wordsdeeds 23:44, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Coming from a culture without a "supreme court" equivalent I have to profess ignorance as to their importance. However, I am knowledgeable as to Watergate, and Bork's role there was pretty minuscule in the wider picture—I certainly wouldn't have supported the posting of John Ehrlichman or H. R. Haldeman, for example. Liddy's another matter given his media prominence but that's a whole other kettle of fish. From the seems of it, Bork had a relatively high number of almost-achievements—acting Attorney General, nominated for Supreme Court, marginally involved in Watergate—but nothing that outright says "Look at me, I mattered". GRAPPLE   X  00:34, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for ticker. This guys' considered one of the leading legal scholars of the last century in the US, was a best-selling author, and just under the supreme court when nominated.  Opposes above based on opposition to his politics and calling him a washed-out politician are ignorant in the extreme.  BTW, I though the guy's judicial philosophy was extremely flawed, opposed his nomination, was glad he dropped out (but not for the reason why) and think his actions under Nixon were awful.  But yes, I think a serious encyclopedia would bump a 13-day oldest person listing for Bork in a heartbeat, and call upon an admin to make a judgment here to post based on the seriousness of the man's role in modern law.  PS, none of the other current nominees/listees has a word coined after him: to Bork. μηδείς (talk) 03:09, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Borking mad. Isn't that what the older, more recognisable argumentum ad hominem is for? Why did they need to coin a new word? By the way, at least this is an actual credible support with clear use of reason. --86.40.195.205 (talk) 03:45, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose- Too many people comparable to him to have his own posting.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 03:22, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for ticker - Not just anyone can claim to be a verb, as in Borked. And if you don't know that, you just don't know history, and I can't help that you are uninformed. Arguments against posting are in that category, in my view. Jus  da  fax   08:54, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - I don't think we can seriously regard 'to bork' as a widespread word; and it's highly confusable with the hacker-slang term 'borken' or 'borked' for 'broken'. And in any case, that's a lousy claim to fame. This is of purely local interest; and by 'local' I mean the Beltway. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:27, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Extremely important legal scholar, and his nomination changed the Supreme Court nominating process. Wouldn't support for a standard blurb, but appropriate for the deaths ticker. Calliopejen1 (talk) 21:43, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * They Borked Bork! This will be an interesting footnote in any future analysis of systematic bias and the objectivity of Wikipedia. μηδείς (talk) 06:15, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted] South Korean presidential election, 2012

 * General elections are ITN/R; should be posted once results are in and article updated. 331dot (talk) 12:24, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Update: Park Geun-hye has trounced the almighty "X" as the winner. – H T  D  15:49, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The sections for nominations of the main parties a a bit long and could be split to seperate articles maybe? Otherwise post once all the numbers are in as per ITN/R. --LukeSurlt c 17:13, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Highly notable event. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 22:11, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posting. My nomination, but it's ITNR. --Tone 23:46, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted] UBS

 * Oppose for impact. No industry changes will likely occur, and this type of "company fined for regulations violations" is something that is becoming routine.  Also, I'd like to add an extra oppose to the nomination for the laziness and deceitfulness of portraying a single article as two different sources. 130.188.8.27 (talk) 08:21, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Is that you Medeis? --76.110.201.132 (talk) 10:57, 19 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support if we didn't post anything else yet on the Libor fixing scandal. It's a big deal. Musicians goonna die, that's not going to change, politicians gonna get elected, no change their either, and banks gonna get fines for being criminals. Shouldn't ignore their crimes. --76.110.201.132 (talk) 10:57, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * We posted Barclays' fine a few months back. LukeSurlt c 11:45, 19 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support. Large fine of a large company for a big scandal. 331dot (talk) 12:26, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support once there is a good enough update, I gather it's pretty big fraud based on the quick run through the news I saw.EdwardLane (talk) 13:20, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * comment suggest article should be Libor scandal (I've added that to the template), article needs update. EdwardLane (talk) 15:55, 19 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support once updated. Formerip (talk) 00:33, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. Libor scandal is an exceptionally good article, and the issue is of pretty huge magnitude (in that strange shadowy realm of international finance which basically rules the world). Quite technical tho, but that's where an encyclopaedia like the one we have here can be of most use to readers. --LukeSurlt c 00:46, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Question. "Agrees to pay" seems like odd wording, although I notice it's how UBS put it in their press release. Is paying the fines voluntary? Formerip (talk) 00:59, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it's more that they've elected not to contest things legally at this point. However it is odd wording, so I've changed the blurb to the simpler "is fined". Also the BBC had an excellent article on this, and I've used this to create a paragraph in the article. LukeSurlt c 01:07, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment I don't recall seeing news of the record fine on HSBC on the ticker. And if that didn't deserve a ITN listing, than neither does this. --  Ohconfucius  ping / poke 01:47, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * There was consensus to post, but the article lacked an update.  Spencer T♦ C 02:51, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posted --  tariq abjotu  02:48, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Gulf of Aden migrant boat disaster

 * Comment: Article currently too brief; could use some more expansion.  Spencer T♦ C 23:46, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

December 25 Deadline Approaches for Mes Aynak

 * Oppose This is the third time this nominator has put this story forward. I sympathise with his frustration in trying to gain support for a worthy campaign in the face of what seems like incredible commercial insensitivity to history and culture, but as previously, there is no news story relevant to the date of the nomination.  Kevin McE (talk) 07:19, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose as per Kevin, the news story would be the actual destruction, rather than its approach. LukeSurlt c 10:29, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Kevin's reasoning. I would suggest a SNOW close since this isn't going to be approved until something happens there. 331dot (talk) 12:11, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Snow nothing has changed since the last two times this was nominated. I sympathize entirely with the subject of the blurb, but ITN is a profoundly bad place to try to gain the sort of visibility that (I assume) the nominator wants. 130.188.8.27 (talk) 12:31, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Wait (suspend). I hope they will be preserved, but any outcome will be ITN-worthy. Brandmeistertalk  12:59, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Kevin. Nothing's happened yet. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 21:49, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted] Mathieu Ngudjolo Chui acquitted

 * Support as the resolution of a war crimes case, in addition to being heard by an international body. 331dot (talk) 18:45, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support wondering if all verdicts of the ICC on war crimes or crimes against humanity should just be ITN/R ? EdwardLane (talk) 16:00, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: The article needs to be updated; it still says "judgement is pending". In addition, I think that Mathieu_Ngudjolo_Chui should be a tad longer, similar to how Ante_Gotovina and the following section in that article are longer.  Spencer T♦ C 17:51, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Article updated, though it does seem a bit heavy on the court case now. C628 (talk) 06:03, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posted. Update looks solid. I would've preferred if the earlier section in his article had been longer, but I'll see if I can find further information to add there myself.  Spencer T♦ C 17:45, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Daniel Inouye - Recent Death

 * Support for RD ticker. One of the longest ever serving United States Senators in history. Canuck 89 (converse with me) 23:23, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * RD Ticker - As per nom, a biography of note. LukeSurlt c 23:49, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Never heard of the bloke, and have no interest at all in Hawaiian politics, but seems like he should be there. Sampling random months, daily hits are rarely less than about 600, often much more.  Kevin McE (talk) 00:17, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support - incumbent, current senate president pro tempore, very notable. – Connormah (talk) 00:29, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support A President Pro Tem, has represented Hawaii in Congress since they got statehood, Medal of Honor recipient. Certainly worthy for the ticker. 331dot (talk) 00:56, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Lukewarm Support once updated, not a back-bencher, long significant career, not like he'd be pushing anyone else off the ticker now. μηδείς (talk) 01:03, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posted to RD.  Spencer T♦ C 01:20, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Cont'd

 * Support as full ITN story - Inouye was a World War II Medal of Honor and Order of the Rising Sun recipient, a representative, the incumbent president pro tempore, and a senator for just 17 days shy of half a century. There are few biographies in our project that can be said to compare. —  C M B J   09:58, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for both/either - It's quite clear that his achievements go far beyond his long and distinguished political service. I'm content for his name to stay on the ticker, but I'd be pleased to see a full listing instead. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:05, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose With all respects to Inouye, he had almost no international profile. Nick-D (talk) 10:20, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * At least one embassy has mourned Inouye and his death has been reported or syndicated by major publications in Australia (Sky News), Canada (CTV News), Denmark (Fyens Stiftstidende), France (Le Figaro), Germany (Donaukurier), Hong Kong (The Standard), Iran (Press TV), Italy (Il Tempo), Mexico (El Mañana), Poland (Gazeta Wyborcza), Romania (Adevărul), Russia (LƐNTA·RU), Switzerland (swissinfo), Taiwan (Radio Taiwan International), Turkey (Hürriyet), the United Kingdom (BBC News), and Vietnam (Thanh Nien). —  C M B J   12:59, 18 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose full blurb - I think the ticker is sufficient. Career was extensive but generally national in scope. Death, though occurring while in office, was from natural causes and somewhat expected. LukeSurlt c 10:27, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Inouye received prestigious honors in Japan (Order of the Rising Sun, Order of the Paulownia Flowers), France (Legion of Honour), the Navajo Nation (honorary membership), and the Philippines (Order of Sikatuna, Order of Lakandula, Philippine Republic Presidential Unit Citation, honorary citizenship in Bulacan and Pangasinan). —  C M B J   12:59, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Previous discussion has suggested full blurb in cases of natural death should really be reserved for international household names, which is not the case here. LukeSurlt c 13:24, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * There does not appear to be clear consensus in this area, at least not at a glance: no formal position on its implementation has been adopted by the relevant guideline and multiple attempts to hash out the ticker's scope have failed in just the past two weeks. —  C M B J   17:20, 18 December 2012 (UTC)


 * CMBJ seems to have demonstrated this is being covered internationally (even Iran, hardly a fan of the US) which would suggest there is some level of international recognition. 331dot (talk) 13:35, 18 December 2012 (UTC)


 * That a story is covered to a basic level on many websites internationally doesn't really much nowadays, as it is very simple to port a newswire story into a basic web posting. Many websites will translate and write up Reuters et al. stories as a simple matter of course. As a more instructive yardstick, see what level of prominence a story is given in the bulletins of the major international news services (BBC, Al Jazeera, CNN etc.) --LukeSurlt c 14:21, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * In no particular order: NBC - 2x home page; CSPAN - home page; Press TV - home page; NHK - 3x in world news; Yahoo News - home page; NPR - home page; USA TODAY - home page; Chicago Tribune - home page; NY Times - home page; TIME magazine - home page; The Guardian - home page; The Atlantic - home page; Washington Post - 2x home page. —  C M B J   17:06, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * All of those are US (I assume you're seeing the US edition of the Guardian front page, because I don't see it on my UK version. I can't see it on PressTV front page at the current time). The exception is NHK, which has placed it into the world news section. This just isn't an international story of the magnitude than warrants a full blurb for a recent death. LukeSurlt c 17:19, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * CNN is US as well — I assumed that you were speaking of placement on any site with a substantial international readership, which is an equally important metric for ITN inclusion. —  C M B J   01:37, 19 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Weak support. Though I understand the reasoning given by the oppose voters, Inouye was the second to last WWII veteran in the US Senate (New Jersey's Lautenberg is the last) which marks a fundamental generational shift in the Senate and politics.  I think that aspect pushes it over the notability threshold for me. 331dot (talk) 12:16, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose significant figure, but now that we have the recent deaths ticker only the most legendary should have a full blurb. Calliopejen1 (talk) 17:44, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Weak Oppose He was up there with the more important senators, but there's plenty news that needs a full blurb.  Wouldn't oppose changing link to Sen. Daniel Inouye. μηδείς (talk) 17:54, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose In the short discussion that did take place at WT:ITN, only those with the very highest global profile, whose death would trigger a major global media circus, should now be blurb deaths: he does not have such a profile. Kevin McE (talk) 20:54, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * In contrast, there is lengthy, ongoing discussion about whether the ticker should even continue to exist. We shouldn't be categorically excluding this (or any) nomination under the given circumstances. —  C M B J   14:57, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * And as long as the discussion is not over with consensus indicating otherwise, it's status quo. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  03:39, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The status quo is that the death ticker exists as an option. —  C M B J   06:19, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose full blurb. The person is notable without doubt, but that notability is not that significantly based on his death, and therefore this event is not meant for a full blurb in the template. Mikael Häggström (talk) 13:07, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

4179 Toutatis flyby

 * Oppose - Like many interesting astronomical observations, this is a mere curiosity compared to other news. Also, this does not appear to be fresh: our article on 4179 Toutatis says the flyby was on 13 December. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:13, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * First we are not talking astronomical observation, we are talking astronautics. Otherwise I thought that space firsts were valid entries. This is the first time a Chinese spacecraft observes another object beyond the Moon at close distance (i.e. 3.2 km) ? Similar feats by Japan (Hayabusa) had been ITN I think. Hektor (talk) 10:47, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support as a milestone in Chinese space exploration, but I think the blurb should be reworded to focus on that aspect and less on the asteroid itself. 331dot (talk) 11:11, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Question': What did this discover? Was it interesting? Currently 4179_Toutatis merely says that the flyby happened with a few numbers, which to me is a an insufficient update for this event. Also worth noting Alex's point that this occurred 13 December, so even if we do post it will be quite far down the list. LukeSurlt c 11:27, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose on evidence so far about what brings it to a notability threshold. Am I right in surmising that the only first is that probes from that country haven't done it before?  I don't think our threshold has dropped that low.  Kevin McE (talk) 21:13, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Strong Support This was unexpected, and kept secret in case of failure until after the accomplishment, which is major, and a first for China. μηδείς (talk) 01:06, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * To clarify to Luke and others, this was a moon-orbiting probe that complete its lunar mission and was retargeted to Toutatis only after the fact. The mission was not planned ahead of time, and it was not announced until after it was a success because it was risky and uncertain.  It's actually quite a development, and has no parallel. μηδείς (talk) 01:09, 18 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment: If what Medeis says above is correct, 4179_Toutatis should be updated to reflect this. Right now, it seems like a typical flyby mission looking at the present update. Or I'm not sure if the updated article should be that of the probe itself, namely the Chang%27e_2 section.  Spencer T♦ C 01:57, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose, per Kevin. Fortunately these flybys are happening more and more often, and I don't think it's necessary to highlight every individual first that comes along with this fact. Especially when the "first" has been done before. Space knows no borders... Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  04:47, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support - I agree that the update is pretty darn thin, but I expect that to change rapidly. This is a fascinating article on a topic in the news. The Chinese first is appealing as well. Overall a fine candidate. Jus  da  fax   05:23, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Conditional Support if the article incorporates the points made by Medies above. I'm weary of the petite nationalism that says we should post accomplishments based on the actors, and not the accomplishment itself, but if this event really is the first impromptu mission change ever then I would support it. 130.188.8.27 (talk) 07:14, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Can we get the pictures taken into the article? Would they be licensed in the same generally free was as NASA pictures? Currently my support hinges on the quality of the update, which I do not think is presently sufficient. Also note that if this is posted, chronologically it fits between the knife attack and the Tallow Candle items. LukeSurlt c 10:46, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * To support my clarification above: "Chang'e 2 was launched in 2010 primarily to serve as a lunar orbiter, but after a successful mission at the moon, the $132 million spacecraft was repurposed as a deep-space explorer. The encounter with Toutatis had been planned for months, but Chinese media kept mum about the results until Saturday."NBC News It should be noted this is the first time a moon orbiter has been repurposed to visit an asteroid. μηδείς (talk) 20:55, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted to RD] World's oldest living person dies

 * Oppose, Wait Support ticker. Curiously, her successor Jiroemon Kimura will break the male longevity record (currently set by Christian Mortensen in 1998) if he lives for another 11 days. Seeing as the "world's oldest living person" title changes hands quite frequently, I think Kimura would be a bit more interesting to ITN editors. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  19:58, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Why is he more noteworthy? The title and ranking does not change all that frequently – there is just a recent cluster. Any change in it is quite an accomplishment, and, I believe, newsworthy. —&#91;  Alan M 1  (talk) &#93;— 20:09, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Note further that, just a few hours after her death, there are hundreds (maybe thousands – hard to tell) of sources reporting it in many languages. It's a big story. —&#91;  Alan M 1  (talk) &#93;— 20:32, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I actually didn't think of the ticker when I opposed, so I'd definitely support that, but considering the fact that she only held the title for a few days, I'd be inclined to say that her tenure was pretty non-notable. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  04:54, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Not the oldest person ever, just the oldest currently. Since people do tend to die quite shortly after becoming the oldest currently living, I don't think we should be posting every one of them. If/when the oldest person ever record gets broken, that would be more appropriate. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 21:13, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * RD Ticker: Looking at Oldest people, it seems the average "reign" is about a year. That's probably borderline on an acceptable rate for recurrence of largely identical ITN stories. Using the ticker means we are using less space to tell the story. LukeSurlt c 21:15, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for ticker only: achievement is by default, record is only ever discussed when it changes hands, record holder rarely does anything to support a public profile other than breathing (possibly with assistance). Ticker ready for some change: Rivera's and Ahmed's deaths were over a week ago, all three are older stories than bottom one on template.  Kevin McE (talk) 21:26, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Ticker- Novelty story that could get some interest.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 21:55, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for ticker Too common of an occurrence to justify a full blurb IMO. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 22:08, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Ticker only. Too common an event. 331dot (talk) 22:58, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posted to RD.  Spencer T♦ C 23:05, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Weak Oppose Pretty absurd given Jiroemon Kimura Besse Cooper, the prior world's oldest person had died only 13 days earlier. This is an event that usually happens many times a year.  While I won't argue this should be pulled, Inouye's death is far more notable. μηδείς (talk) 01:12, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Jiroemon Kimura is still alive, but I guess we can still understand your point. --Floquenbeam (talk) 01:24, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, copied wrong name by mistake. The point still stands, an under-two-week record holder is absurd, and this sets a terrible precedent.  Admins should do a little research. μηδείς (talk) 01:27, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe we could have a "world's oldest living person" ticker. Formerip (talk) 01:31, 18 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Having watched how ITN/C operates for a week or so, I think fears of a "terrible precedent" are unwarranted. There are bigger issues than whether we're going to put Mr. Kimura on the ticker in the future. Maybe dial down the near-constant hyperbole a notch? Then, when you actually do think something is absurd, people might take your comment seriously. --Floquenbeam (talk) 01:35, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, please, the posting was simply not justified, and I am quite sure you didn't realize it was being put up less than two weeks after the last oldest person in the world had died. The fact is, admins need to pay more attention, not less attention.  That being said, who cares, the listing isn't keeping some more important person off ITN, so I certainly don't.  Perhaps we should add this to ITNR? μηδείς (talk) 01:45, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I would support adding it to ITNR. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 01:57, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd third that, if we confine it to the ticker. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  04:54, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed, the first ITNR ticker item. I think such deaths would be a good fit for the ticker. We should probably consider the omission of Besse Cooper an oversight. When Jiroemon Kimura becomes the oldest living man ever, I think that may be full blurb material, but that's a somewhat different story. --LukeSurlt c 10:52, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I've written an ITN/R nomination. --LukeSurlt c 11:32, 18 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Pull As has been said above, this "title" changes regularly and the notability question is far more complex than just passing a baton between each elderly person fate and fortune deigns with longevity. It's potentially bias, as records are more accurate in the developed world than elsewhere, so we could be opening ourselves up to a real problem of precedent. Pull this from the front page whilst we fathom out a solution doktorb wordsdeeds 05:20, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * All or nothing. I see no particular basis to pull, and would have been neutral on a full blurb had I seen this before I posted. That said, RD seems the worst of all worlds in this situation. Sometimes we post people who were huge in a few countries and relatively unknown in others: for them, RD works reasonably well. But Dina Manfredini was not a household name in any part of the world. We should therefore either have posted a full blurb to explain that she was the world's oldest person, or not posted at all on the grounds that she wasn't well known enough. —WFC— FL wishlist 09:00, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * If people want to find out who she was they can click on the link and read the article. LukeSurlt c 10:53, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I was hoping for a response with even the slightest of insight. —WFC— FL wishlist 03:42, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Don't worry, WFC. We have an RfC recommending the insertion of random links throughout WP.  If people click on them, they can find out what they are about as well.  Kind of viral and all Third-Milleniumish. μηδείς (talk) 04:00, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted] Japanese general election, 2012

 * We've got the results, but the article could use a little more TLC before posting.--Chaser (talk) 19:08, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Post once the article is tightened up, as Chaser suggests. 331dot (talk) 21:20, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Since this is listed at WP:ITN/R, we don't need to establish consensus before posting; we just need a sufficient update.--Chaser (talk) 21:31, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I realize that, I was simply saying it needed to get the TLC you suggest before posting. :) 331dot (talk) 22:51, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support re: notability as per WP:ITN/R, but the article is far from ready, and is very much in a "pre-result" state at the current time. I've done a little bit on reactions/analysis prior to my bedtime here, but a lot more needs to be done. This is an election about who runs the world's third-largest economy so we should aim for more than the bare minimum. There should be plenty of sources around. Indeed, as an experiment I'd recommend that ITN/C readers, even if one does't have time to edit the article, collect sources which can be used by other editors and place them in the template above. (This seems like a good use of ITN anyway). --LukeSurlt c 23:51, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I now agree with the below that the article is Ready. --LukeSurlt c 19:17, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Highly notable event. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 00:21, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support per ITNR. The post-election update is sufficient, although hopefully some of that will make its way into the lead in the near future. —WFC— FL wishlist 08:45, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Ready - article seems fine now. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 18:46, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posted. --BorgQueen (talk) 21:41, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

2012 FIFA Club World Cup

 * Support. If I read that right, this is a tournament between regional champions, right?  Seems significant enough. 331dot (talk) 13:07, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose This is something of an oddity of a tournament (rather like the FIFA Confederations Cup and the FA Community Shield and its equivalents in many countries) whereby winning the event that qualifies a team for this is a massive goal for the teams involved, but this is itself not much more than an overblown friendly tournament.  Although they were guaranteed a place in the semifinal against opposition they should beat 19 times out of 20, winning this will have been at best fourth in Chelsea's priorities this season behind the League, the FA Cup and the Champions' League. Kevin McE (talk) 13:33, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support when updated. Really, with Corinthians beating the UEFA champion I think the arguments that this tournament doesn't matter to the teams playing should be ditched.  Both teams played full strength squads and it clearly mattered a great deal to both teams.  All statements by the team officials indicate that this tournament is one of the teams' significant priorities.  It probably matters more to the South Americans which I think accounts for the European perception that this is a second rate tournament.  I also think it's time to post this to ITNR.  However, the article needs more prose so I'm marking it 'not updated'.--Johnsemlak (talk) 14:15, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * If you have quotes from the beginning of the season saying that, I'll withdraw my oppose. But comments in the immediate run up to the event or immediately after by the winners are slanted by circumstances, and any comment that says "it is an important competition, honestly" is only necessitated by widespread opinion to the contrary.  Articles on all but one of the other previous winners have it at the very end of the listing of achievements in the opening paragraph, suggesting that to fans of those clubs (let's face it, most club articles are largely fan written) it is less important than the others. Kevin McE (talk) 14:39, 16 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose, Kevin's right. I'm sure FIFA would like this to be considered important, but the simple fact of the matter is it's a glorified series of friendlies. I'm not as well-versed in non-European football, but I can guarantee the Champions League is considered vastly more important than this by Chelsea. Johnsemlak may be right that the non-Europeans care more, though I'm not aware that anyone really believes this is the top achievement in world club football. LukeSurlt c 14:28, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support if there's a championship parade at the streets of Sao Paulo once Corinthians arrive. Otherwise, oppose. – H T  D  14:47, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support- A huge upset in the most underrated football tournament in the world. The fact that Corinthians can now call themselves FIFA World Champions should mean something.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 15:13, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support, seems to be the top-tier inter-club competition, higher than UEFA Champions League. Brandmeistertalk  15:46, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The thing is, it isn't. As Kevin said above, although a European side needs to win the Champions League to qualify, no-one (in Europe certainly) considers this a more important competition. Compare media coverage if you're not convinced. LukeSurlt c 16:12, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The Champions League may be more popular, but it's organized by UEFA and only European clubs can compete there, while the tournament in question is a FIFA-run Club World Cup, where all clubs compete as the name suggests. I watched the final match and both teams played at decent, non-friendly level, with one red card and nice defense by Cássio. Brandmeistertalk  16:59, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Strongly Oppose recurring event, not on ITN/R, and nothing particularly notable about this occurrence of the event. There are already nine association football items on ITN/R. Lets stay with that list please, so that we don't randomly post sporting events based on the whims of whomever happens to be participating at ITN at the time. In the name of consistency, stop this madness please. --76.110.201.132 (talk) 16:07, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Discussion of whether or not this should be a recurring event should take place over on that page, not here. This page is just to talk about the event going on ITN. 331dot (talk) 18:24, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * You're very wrong about the "nothing particularly notable about this occurrence of the event" claim. Rarely does the European team lose the final. Also, I think this should be ITN/R, and as far as I know it has never been up for discussion, so the fact that's not on the list means nothing.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 19:51, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * There really should be some sanction against the posting of blatantly untrue claims in the hope of swaying the opinions of the uninformed. S American teams have won 4 out of 9 editions of the competition: that is as near as is possible to equalling Europe's success rate.  European teams have lost 38% of the finals they have reached (and once didn't even reach the final).  38% of the time is not rare.  Kevin McE (talk) 20:50, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That part stricken, but my other point is still valid.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 00:39, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Struck, I note, with no apology for attempting to mislead. Your opinion as to whether it should be at ITN/R is not relevant here, and it has been discussed there.  Kevin McE (talk) 07:24, 17 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support it is the highest honor for a football club. Nergaal (talk) 17:01, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Source? Or just assumption based on the puffed up name that FIFA give to their own event? Kevin McE (talk) 20:50, 16 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Very weak support only if it is posted under the Connecticut shootings. Otherwise, support this, as it looks like an important match. gwickwire  talk edits 17:58, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Absolutely oppose any changing our ordering practice, even for the sake of cute American kiddies. Kevin McE (talk) 20:50, 16 December 2012 (UTC)


 * weak oppose based on judgments above that nine other tournaments are of more notability. μηδείς (talk) 18:28, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Based on the discussion above, this doesn't appear to be a particularly notable event. In addition to the opposition, I take note of Bzweebl's comment that it's "the most underrated football tournament in the world" — an acknowledgement that it isn't among the more highly regarded association football championships.  It's not our place to promote sporting events that we believe should be considered important.  —David Levy 18:37, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. This is a glorified friendly tournament that no-one takes very seriously. There's very little interest except from fans of the teams taking part. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 19:20, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Per arguments that this event is not on ITN/R. This event falls short of the mark needed, in my view. Jus  da  fax   20:11, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose a friendly tournament between just four clubs, two of whom are perennially pointless, and a needless distraction mid-season for the European club involved. Who won it last year?  Not a clue......  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:21, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Both of your claims are untrue: 1) Not a friendly tournament. 2) Six teams, not four.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 00:41, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, it's seven teams. The host FA gets one slot. – H T  D  05:41, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support A recognised FIFA event organised to showcase the best teams from recognised regional competitions, with the two finalists having amongst the best players in the world on their teams doktorb wordsdeeds 21:26, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Strong Support because "World Cup" mean a lot specialy when champions from the 6 populed continets are in, and 16M US Dollars is the money price to split betten the 7 teams for play and win this playoff. Become the real World Champion is the news. --Feroang (talk) 23:34, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * This is sorta not correct. The AFC Champions League is basically a closed system (think of it as like the US/Canada and Australian sports leagues where there is no promotion and regulation). This means not all of the members of the AFC can participate in the AFC Champions League (unlike UEFA's competition which allows even shitty leagues such as those in Northern Ireland and San Marino to participate). I dunno about other leagues, but this brings to question that all leagues pitch in. – H T  D  05:41, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. Important international event. Seen by many people in many different countries. ComputerJA (talk) 06:45, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Nothing can disguise the fact that this match was a glorified friendly. Not the trophy, not the title, not even the formalities that were the semi-finals. In fairness South American supporters do tend to care about the competition somewhat more than European ones – win or lose – but only a particular year's winners would ever claim that it came anywhere near the Champions League or the Copa Libertadores. —WFC— FL wishlist 08:41, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Jalsah Movies

 * Oppose for now. This is going to sound like a crap reason, but here goes. I think we need to leave the recent Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting up for a while more before an update. I will rethink this oppose sometime late tomorrow or Monday, but I do not think the time is right now to bump the massacre down on ITN. I have no prejudice against this however. gwickwire  talk edits 04:54, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, thanks. Launch of a 24 hour movie channel is a special event for Bengali television industry. --Tito Dutta (talk) 05:10, 16 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Assuming nomination in good faith (so is the above oppose). it would probably be best to close this per WP:SNOW rather than opposing it 50 times. This just doesnt meet ITN criteria and is not of enough importance/interest. Please read WP:ITN for general guidelines... -- Ashish-g55 06:03, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The nomination is without a doubt in good faith; there's no reason for that to be questioned. However, the news is simply not important enough on an international level to warrant inclusion on ITN. I would suggest SNOW closure. -- Mike (Kicking222) 14:13, 16 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose this nom and support a closing of this per WP:SNOW. Seems like an advertisement more than anything; certainly not a news story. 331dot (talk) 12:45, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose Can't imagine any support, lets bury it. Kevin McE (talk) 13:37, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose as per 331. --LukeSurlt c 14:37, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Perfect for DYK. μηδείς (talk) 18:29, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Endorse- Length is good enough.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 19:53, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted to RD] Recent death of Páidí Ó Sé

 * Weak Oppose Plenty of sports figures die at this age, and the fact he had a pub with famous people's faces on the wall is hardly notable. Please convince me he's otherwise more notable than other recent such sports deaths. μηδείς (talk) 01:16, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That he won ten All-Irelands as player and manager across four decades? That he won a record-breaking number of All-Ireland medals on the field of play and still holds that record? That he only conceded once to a direct opponent in ten All-Ireland final appearances? That he captained his team? That his team is essentially the Brazil of his sport? That he is essentially the Maldini or Beckenbauer of his sport? That he managed a team that had never won anything to their first title at the top level? That, on top of all this, he died suddenly in the morning despite being well the night before? That the President, lots of senior government ministers and other politicians, and rival players and managers, tripped over themselves to pay tribute? That he's been in the news continuously ever since? Did you even read it? How can you have ended up focusing on the pub after all that? --86.40.107.33 (talk) 01:48, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not trying to be evil, but "all-Ireland" compares in population to "all-New Jersey". Are there other ways to gage his merit?
 * Well, the Beeb isn't Irish and doesn't bother too much with any football that isn't soccer. And New Jersey's population outweighs that of more than about 150 other countries if this is correct. Therefore New Jersey has more merit than most countries on Earth. All-Maryland + All-Minnesota + All-Colorado + All-Wisconsin nearly equal All-Australia. Therefore maybe they should break off and form their own country with Wyoming and/or Vermont? All-Norway + All-New Zealand + All-Uruguay + All-Mongolia + All-Republic of the Congo is less than All-Texas. Therefore Texas has more merit than random bits of all the other continents. All-Oceania is less than All-California. Therefore California has more merit than an entire continent. These equations are quite fun and could be done all day but what point would it prove? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.40.202.170 (talk) 20:49, 18 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support for ticker. Ó Sé's achievements certainly place him in the uppermost echelons of the sport; that his success hasn't been coupled with international recognition shouldn't diminish it. GRAPPLE   X  01:57, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for ticker per Grapple's reasoning. 331dot (talk) 02:03, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose for both We would not put him on ITN so why support putting him on the ticker? Not notable enough - remember when we cared about notability ? doktorb wordsdeeds 05:16, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Iconic national figure: I suspect that it is difficult for many readers to appreciate how deeply engrained GAA is in national psyche in Ireland, which is key to his profile. Kevin McE (talk) 07:19, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for ticker. IP made it pretty convincing that he was at the top of his sport. Perfectly suitable for the ticker. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  19:00, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posting to RD. The article has a good amount of material describing Páidí Ó Sé's career, and the IP makes a very convincing argument for inclusion.  Spencer T♦ C 03:05, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Lieberman fraud and resignation



 * Oppose. We should consider political resignations in context. In this case, Lieberman is not very well-known outside Israel and, even in the context of Israeli politics, the resignation is likely to have a very limited impact - with an election upcoming it's not going to cause a crisis in government or even necessarily have much effect on Lieberman's career, it seems. Also "following an indictment for fraud" is obviously misleading. Formerip (talk) 12:01, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I agree with Formerip.  They are also correct that using "fraud" is misleading, as the exact charge is "breach of trust". 331dot (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 13:08, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * To clarify, he was also originally accused of fraud, but prosecutors have not charged him with it. Formerip (talk) 13:30, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted] Chenpeng Village Primary School stabbing

 * Neutral Oppose. The event does not have an article. Without an article, the ITN candidate cannot be posted.  Needs further expansion. Currently at 1214 characters. Would like to see it meet at least the DYK length criteria (1500 characters). Also, was the attack significant? How does it compare with other events in China?-- xanchester   (t)  23:13, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The article is now DYK length. Regarding impact of event, its being reported in BBC, NYT, etc, etc. Google "闵应军" to see the story in Chinese language rolling news.  As School attacks in China (2010–2011) shows, this isnt the worst school killing, but this is like a serial killer - each time it happens the general public's concerns multiply.  And they always use knives - that is cultural.  Knives don't kill as often, but that is the weapon of opportunity in China.  China isnt even listed on list of countries by firearm-related death rate (for various reasons, including tight regulation and minimum prison sentences: Gun_politics). John Vandenberg (chat) 06:49, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Satisfied with the length. Thank you for the expansion. Leaning towards support, but the impact of the event and reactions should be discussed in the article. -- xanchester  (t)  07:32, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - As I understand it, there have been no fatalities, and this is no longer that fresh a story. Proposing it now, in light of the mass killing in CT, seems a bit pointy. Please let's not have a spat about US-centrism today of all days. Revised argument: No fatalities, no article. AlexTiefling (talk) 23:20, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * We can't post it if there's no article, but, it isn't a stale story, it happened today. And if you don't want to have a spat, perhaps don't accuse someone of being blue-linked pointy. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:30, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * My apologies. It may well be that I have confused this mass stabbing with another. I retract my statement (Struck out above.) AlexTiefling (talk) 00:02, 15 December 2012 (UTC)


 * What did I tell you, Hydrox. No deaths, no sympathy (so to speak). Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  02:42, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Article created. Expanding now.. John Vandenberg (chat) 02:48, 15 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support now that article exists. GRAPPLE   X  03:36, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * A point of note: ITN does not require a new separate article on a topic to be valid; just *some* article has been expanded to discuss the ITN. --M ASEM  (t) 03:38, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm aware of that, but prior to the article's creation it seemed nowhere else contained this information (nor was there really any article that seemed relevant to update). GRAPPLE   X  08:24, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support-ish, but wait a bit. As a knife attack, deaths aren't expected. However, if the same attack were performed with a gun, there'd be mass deaths. I do think we need to wait maybe 12 hours (or longer), or people will think "attacks everywhere = end of the world". gwickwire  talk edits 03:40, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Bad Taste the rationale and everything about this is pointy. As a survivor of someone who was murdered, this screams bad taste.  That's a strong oppose, btw.  μηδείς (talk) 03:43, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Do you honestly think that the fact that the nominator may be trying to prove a point discredits the fact that 22 children were stabbed? If you have a bias, just leave it aside, please. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  03:54, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't understand your point. A bias against "slashed" children who haven't died? I do find the nomination repulsive, but I don't have anything against the children. μηδείς (talk) 16:25, 15 December 2012 (UTC)


 * My point is that whether or not the nomination is pointy, the fact of the matter is that it's still a nomination, with a valid story. But your entire oppose revolves around the nom being in "bad taste". So it's not a really valid oppose. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  18:48, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support It's in the news, and the article is good enough. -- Jayron  32  05:12, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose, no fatalities. The story has mainly had prominence in the West due to it somewhat mirroring Sandy Hook - I've seen a few posts which essentially use this to say "if the U.S. didn't have guns, people would survive the attacks." It would be highly unusual to post a non-fatal attack like this to ITN, and, I think I agree with μηδείς, it would seem "pointy". --LukeSurlt c 10:05, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Weak Support lets be hard hearted about this, it is not just another stabbing, its a mass stabbing in a school, and it is in the news, which is why I'm giving this weak support, it is probably very slightly more in the international news coverage because of its comparison to the school massacre in the USA, but I'm not sure that extra coverage is bad, and the 'pointy' comparison is in the news too, so we could reasonably have nominated the comparison in its own right. So I don't think the possible comparison to the sandy hook is an argument against posting this, if anything it seems an argument in favour of posting this in a combined blurb (which seems unlikely), so if there is a good article out there comparing gun control and fatality rates in massacres or perhaps this table which is similar, and we can get that into the blurb then I'd change from weak support to support.EdwardLane (talk) 10:48, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Difficult one, marginal support. There have been many similar events in recent years, with greater number of injuries or multiple deaths: much lower levels of media attention than this week, and no sniff of a nomination here.  The suddenly enhanced attention to this incident is, one can only assume, due to piggybacking on the Connecticut incident.  On those grounds, I so nearly came down on the side of opposing, but on balance I support on almost exactly the same grounds.  Even if it is only due to tragic circumstances that it has been given media priority, we should overcome systemic bias to post events in China that we would otherwise support in the anglophone world. Kevin McE (talk) 11:26, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose We did not post any of these, of which there are much more serious attacks, and this seems just a bit too reactionary due to the Connecticut shooting. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 12:43, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll give it a Weak support, only because I'd put my full support behind it, had we not already posted another similar nomination. But this is just as big of a deal as the CT shooting... just because they didn't die doesn't mean it isn't as tragic. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  18:48, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support- The difference between dead and wounded is overrated, though still important. These kids will be scarred for life, and this is as much a tragedy as the US one.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 00:22, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posted There seems to be sufficient consensus to post this, and the article has sufficient information about the incident itself. --  tariq abjotu  04:14, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Staggering, unprecedented, absolutely mind boggling fail - Bus crash in China == "OMG Support", massive freeway pileup in America == "Yawn, no deaths". Massive school shooting in America == Support, so you would expect tragic school stabbing in China to be "Yawn, no deaths", but nope, up it goes. Let everyone who wailed and cried of "Systemic Bias" over that dead musician get a good look at this one. Utterly ridiculous. --76.110.201.132 (talk) 12:18, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * A car crash is a teensy bit less newsworthy than a mass stabbing. But hey let's drag nationality into it for no reason. GRAPPLE   X  12:22, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Some Chinese mayor steps down steps down and it goes up, Lieberman resigns in Israel and it's more "Yawn, not news" (even though id.wikipedia.org and de.wikipedia.org have already posted that story to their MP). If there is systemic bias here it's that you can't take a walk in China without it getting posted to ITN, unless of course some village throws off the shackles of their fascist oppressors, making international headlines, then it's "Yawn, village dispute". Should just get a cname created in DNS for en.wikipedia.org to cn.wikipedia.org. I mean, really, how did this get posted?? --76.110.201.132 (talk) 12:40, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * This unregistered user is using an IP account that self identified as User:IP98 on the talk page the other day. IP98's userpage acknowledges his previous Wikipedia identities as user:StopChinaNow and user:TheSinophobe.  Such user names might cast some light on 76.110's attitude in this discussion.  Kevin McE (talk) 13:22, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's me, IP98. This was posted either because of blatant, unwavering Sinocentrism on WP, or someone just had to Think of the children. --76.110.201.132 (talk) 14:31, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * "Massive school shooting in America == Support, so you would expect tragic school stabbing in China to be "Yawn, no deaths"." There were 23 deaths. Staggering, unprecedented, absolutely mind boggling logic fail. Chocolate Horlicks (talk) 13:05, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * No: there were 23 stabbings, none of which were fatal. Please read the article/discussion/sources lest your accusations of a fail rebound. Kevin McE (talk) 13:25, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Ouch. Agree that the Staggering, unprecedented, absolutely mind boggling fail is squarely on my side. Chocolate Horlicks (talk) 15:09, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The implication from having this on ITN is that the stabbings were fatal, which they were not. I really don't like this posting (see above), but if we have to have it, please revise blurb to explicitly say the incident was non-fatal: 23 people are injured in a knife attack at a primary school in Xinyang, Guangshan County, Henan. --LukeSurlt c 13:29, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I tagged this item as "Needs attention", my raving notwithstanding, LukeSurl has an excellent point about the blurb. --76.110.201.132 (talk) 14:48, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Tag removed. Blurb has been rephrased, and IP98 has made it very clear in the past that he has some agenda on items regarding China which means that his contributions in regard to any item emanating from that country cannot be taken on face value.  Kevin McE (talk) 16:31, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. My disdain for a brutal band of baby butchers has nothing to do with this fact that this item should never have been posted. I live in Miami, next time a kid gets shot on the bus I'll be sure to whip together a stub of an article and nominate it here. A kid, a bus and a shooting, we could speedy post that! The good news is that as of this posting, the old argument "not enough deaths" no longer stands. --76.110.201.132 (talk) 17:07, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Shootings happen in Miami all the time. Tell me the last time an elementary school in Lewisport, Kentucky was shot up.--WaltCip (talk) 17:17, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Easy now. WP:NOTBATTLE & WP:Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point. Looking at some of the discussion above, I fear a lot of 'support'ers may have assumed the attack was fatal (having not actually read the article). I'd really not want to use this as a precedent as it is so counter to all pre-existing custom here. --LukeSurlt c 17:45, 16 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Pull There's no consensus here, we have three supports, three opposes, three weak supports, one weak oppose, one wait and one neutral. The precedent set by this is bizarre.  Will we now post "23 sent to hospital after stink bomb is set of in building" and "50 people hurt on golf course when lightning strikes nearby"?  It's obvious this topic is parasiting its notability off the Connecticut shooting, even the noms comments note that, and it would never have been considered otherwise. μηδείς (talk) 18:44, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * You've been here long enough to know that we don't just count votes. Read the quality of the opposition arguments and you'll see a flawed reasoning behind most (including your own) of them... Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  00:51, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Where is the significant impact? Did the President of China give a press conference after the stabbing as Obama did after the shooting? (No.) Did dozens of international leaders rush to give their condolences to China? (No.) Did anybody die as a result of these stabbings? (No.) Is this form of political dissident or protest as uncommon as it is in America? (No.) Poor comparison; thoughtless application of avoiding systemic bias doctrine. Shrigley (talk) 19:46, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't see the need to compare this to the US shooting. That event was especially notable, so comparing other events to it would leave ITN dry.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 19:57, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * No-one is questioning that the Connecticut shooting is notable: please don't invite analysis of your emotional biases by expecting everyone to agree that it is especially so. Kevin McE (talk) 21:15, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Is that a reply to me or someone else? The indenting indicates it is for me, but I can't understand what it means if that is the case.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 22:54, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * You're the one who said that an item was not merely notable, but especially so, so yes. Kevin McE (talk) 23:09, 16 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Pull - Add me to opposers on the lack of ITN-worthiness and also those who don't see consensus to post. Just pull it now. Jus  da  fax   20:20, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Pull. It appears there was no consensus to post this item; there is still much disagreement about it.  It should be removed until that is cleared up. 331dot (talk) 21:23, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Pull already with what I think are new commenters Jusdafax, 331, and Shrig, it looks like there's a strong anti-posting consensus. I have to wonder what's going on when the same admin who pulled a nom with ten-to-one in-favor support leaves up a nom with two-to-one opposition.  μηδείς (talk) 23:28, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I was watching this page, and I have been seeing what's going on. But no one ever comes here to say they are so happy an item has been posted. So, I was going to take a wait-and-see approach. However, now that you've accused me of impropriety with a shit summary of the two actions, I'm not going to follow this section anymore or take any further action on it. So find another admin to listen to your whining. --  tariq abjotu  23:39, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * This crying about not having consensus is totally unjustified. The three main arguments against this were that it's a WP:POINTy nom, that WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, and that there were no fatalities. The only valid argument was the latter, so I don't see a strong case against before the post. The pulls are calling out the "non-consensus" while IP98 and the opposer are crying OTHERSTUFF again. I see absolutely no reason to pull. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  00:51, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't appreciate to your referring to my objection as "crying". There was no need for that, it's just my opinion.  Your view you posted above is yours.  Your opinion that the objections of those calling for it to be pulled is invalid is just that- your opinion- which I don't happen to agree with.  Though I didn't mention it, it is not irrelevant to bring up another, somewhat similar event. 331dot (talk) 01:16, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I admit it was a lack of a better choice of words. But it does seem that, for the most part, the pressure being placed on Tariq for his decision is a little overly frantic. And no, it isn't irrelevant to bring up a past event to refer to for consensus, but it is rather absurd to be using them to accuse people of being pointy and in bad faith – or to use them as the basis of an argument (because WP:CCC). Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  01:25, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * "Cry" as a transitive verb is rather different (Henry V, Act III:Cry God for Harry, England, and Saint George!): it means to call out, not to sob and weep. Kevin McE (talk) 07:15, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Where I live, "crying" in some contexts refers to repeated and sometimes unjustified complaints and has a negative connotation; it does not just mean literal sobbing and weeping or simple calling out. 331dot (talk) 18:42, 18 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Seriously once an item is up people need to calm down unless there was strong consensus against the item at the time of posting. It looks AWFUL to pull an item once its been posted and should only be done under exceptional circumstances. And this particular item is really not that bad. It contrasts US school shootings fairly well. I see no reason to pull since article is good, its decently important and its ALREADY UP! -- Ashish-g55 01:21, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * fwiw, its also on zh:Template:Itn (also in the second slot), and was placed there soon after the article was written. Almost every regional and national news source on the planet is covering this story, and probably most local sources as well, and there is a lot of public commentary discussing both of these events together, including several high readership outlets like an AP story being republished by many newspapers - 666) and a NYT blog post. John Vandenberg (chat) 03:07, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Shit? So now people who give rationales for pulling a post can be ignored as crying and whining (I have posted in this thread 4 times, twice as a response to others) and be cursed at by admins who are supposed to pay attention and judge things on the merit? Here's the edit summary which has justified Tariqabjotu in ignoring every contributor to this thread: "I have to wonder what's going on when the same admin who pulled a nom with ten-to-one in-favor support leaves up a nom with two-to-one opposition."   This factual comment deserves the response "shit"?
 * Regardless of his opinion of my arguments, Tariqabjotu has just declared that he can abandon his duty to you as an admin to listen to all editors because I as an individual have said something he doesn't like. In other words, your comments don't matter because he has declared like Queen Victoria "we are not amused"?  Isn't that special?  This is an invaluable lesson. μηδείς (talk) 05:03, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted] Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting

 * Support - significant (!) school shooting. for ITN.--BabbaQ (talk) 18:48, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support ...My God. This is the deadliest elementary school shooting in America since the Bath School disaster. ~ AH1 (discuss!) 18:53, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Strong support - A very tragic event. Any American school shooting receives a lot of media attention - this is undoubtedly newsworthy -- Hazhk Talk to me 18:54, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support and Post ASAP and if anyone doesn't mind I added an additional blurb possibility with the number of children killed and without a wikilink to Connecticut.. gwickwire talkedits 18:59, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Strong support A shooting of this magnitude, and in an elementary school no less, is major news. This needs to be highlighted. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:00, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: Clearly there are a lot of unknowns here, so I don't think we should post until the people in charge of investigating give us a good estimate of what the numbers are. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  19:00, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * We know its at least 23. That's bad enough. We can update as it develops. --M ASEM (t) 19:02, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * No, we don't know. Those are unconfirmed reports. The police are confirming that "several people" have died. That's not enough confirmation to post. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  19:05, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, we do know. See the CNN article: ""Close to 20” people have been killed, including at least 10 children, a law enforcement source with knowledge of the investigation says." and others, including the recent press conference. gwickwire  talk edits 19:08, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * No, we don't know. These are all estimates from "sources", and no two source (except from the "18 children, 9 adults" source) has matched so far. Wait. There is no rush. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  19:10, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * As someone recently pointed out, we have an unreasonable fixation with the number of deaths in relation to such sad events. The exact count of deaths is largely irrelevant (and in some cases not even immediately available). I guess it would be often sufficient to just say that there are "numerous" or "several" deaths. --hydrox (talk) 19:11, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Not trying to argue (I agree for the most part), but wouldn't that make this notable as well? I'm pretty sure it wouldn't pass here because the editors here are obsessed with death counts. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  19:16, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I say post ASAP because while the numbers might shift, the fact we're going with here is that there was a mass shooting in an elementary school. We know this. That's a fact that won't change. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:15, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support & ASAP - The numbers and fact that its an elementary school are what put it over the edge for posting. (However, to Hazhk I would be very cautious to say "any American school shooting" is automatically ITN-worthy, as the country where it happens should not enter into the equation.) --M ASEM (t) 19:02, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support - Tragic and a huge story but I echo Eric's concerns about rapid posting. Let's give this at least a few hours to get some confirmed facts. Jus  da  fax   19:09, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support - Obvious support based on international prominence of coverage, but agree that we should hold posting until facts are slightly more solid. -- Khazar2 (talk) 19:12, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Blurb whichever blurb is used, it should say "killed in a shooting", not "killed after a shooting". μηδείς (talk) 19:13, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Notable school shooting. Ryan Vesey 19:14, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Reports now that one of the parents have been found dead at the shooter's house. I stress the need for some time before posting. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  19:20, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That report has been included in the toll already hence it being 27 instead of 26. Also, that's not relevant to the blurbs, and it can be very easily updated as things progress. gwickwire  talk edits 19:22, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * You don't know that for sure. My point is that this shows that there is a lot we don't know. There is no use in recklessly posting this only to embarrassingly update it every hour until we make it to like 30 or 40 deaths confirmed, for example. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  19:31, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * We updated regularly after the Aurora shooting after posting it quickly. As long as the updates follow reliable sources, that's not an issue for ITN, only that some threshhold has been passed. --M ASEM (t) 19:33, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I've been contributing to ITN for almost over two years now, and while I wasn't around for Aurora, I can personally attest to the fact that we prioritise getting it right rather than getting information out ASAP. This is an encyclopedia – not Wikinews. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  19:37, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * However, getting it out quick is better than having people come here saying "What is that school shooting not news enough for Wikipedia?" That's why we do this type of 'post quick then update' things for these news, such as Aurora, Benghazi, etc. gwickwire  talk edits 19:41, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd like to refer you to In the news/Candidates/January 2011 for a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  20:03, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * 26 confirmed from multiple sources, plus 1 parent = 27 total. That's how I know. ITN is exactly for these kinds of events. Updates aren't embarrassing, they're needed to keep the information correct. That's how ITN works, not 'wait until every single little detail is confirmed by 1,000 worldwide news outlets'. And agreed with above comment by Masem. gwickwire  talk edits 19:34, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Treating information as being true and then updating it after the fact is embarrassing. I'd like you to back up your claim of "26 + 1" because I see no online news outlets specifically mentioning that; it's always been either "at least 20", "23", "26", or "27". None of them specify AFAICS. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  19:46, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * WSJ says "Dozens" in their title. So can we. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:49, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * We don't follow the same standards as the media. For example, I know for certain that the CBC will broadcast a report as its main source of information if it hears it come from two independent outlets. I have no idea how the WSJ handles reports, but we aren't the WSJ. Precedent here is that we report when we know it is true, and we know it is true when the police in charge says so. They have said that information is coming in a few hours. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  20:03, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * CNN 26 plus parent. NBC same FOX yet again. There's tons more as well. gwickwire  talk edits 19:51, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * You're totally missing my point. None of them say that they've added that parent to the death toll. All that we know is that a report came out from two sources saying "27 dead", much of the media reported on it, and then reports came out that a body was found at the gunman's home. No one in the media has mentioned if that parent is included or excluded from that death toll. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  20:03, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Personally, I think your insistence on having the numbers lined up perfectly is missing the point. Details will be confirmed in due time, but we know enough to move on this. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:15, 14 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support this is one of the worst mass killings in American history--Bellerophon5685 (talk) 19:26, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support as per above, no disptute as to notability. As regards the article, it's not a question of sufficent size of update, but rather wether what is up there is in ahderance with guidelines, especially WP:V. The Template:current notice at the top of the page does alert readers as to the developing nature of the story. Suggest we post as soon as we can, and that experienced editors (i.e. people reading here) keep an eye on the page and make sure everything on it adheres to guidelines, with hasty removal of unverified information, and a skeptical mindset as to the accuracy of sources for the next few hours. Semi-protect if necessary. LukeSurlt c 19:45, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Over Two Dozen Lets be bold and put this up now with "over two dozen, including 18 children". μηδείς (talk) 19:57, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posted with a blurb similar to like Medeis was suggesting. Ks0stm  (T•C•G•E) 20:06, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Strongly Recommend Pull. You are setting a precedent for posting ITN stories before we know the facts. You could have waited two more hours thirty minutes for police to confirm the death toll. ITN is not a news ticker, it is a way of displaying good quality, factual articles to the Main Page. Times like these are why we don't jump the gun like news outlets. If you were really keen on updating the ticker, there was a perfectly good article just below this one. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  20:13, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * On the contrary, ITN is a news ticker...one that showcases updated Wikipedia articles related to notable current events. We regularly post natural disasters before the full death toll is known in the exact way I had just posted this, so I see no issue here. Ks0stm  (T•C•G•E) 20:20, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I guess the big difference between this and natural disasters is that there is currently no official indication of a death toll. None whatsoever, just reports. Whereas, during natural disasters, we often get those kinds of briefings relatively fast. Or at least a range from officials. That's the only reason I disagree here. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  20:28, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think this should have been posted. The article does not have enough information yet to meet our minimum standards. --  tariq abjotu  20:08, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * And I've pulled it. It's really in terrible condition. --  tariq abjotu  20:13, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * There's clear consensus to post it, you are incorrect in pulling it. Ryan Vesey 20:14, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Consensus is independent of the article's quality. And I highly recommend addressing my concern before posting... Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  20:17, 14 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Which minimum standards? It seems in decent shape, no orange tags, everything is cited...what more are you looking for on a developing story? Ks0stm  (T•C•G•E) 20:15, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I believe this is the standard, as indicated by WP:ITN. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  20:28, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Bad pull. There's nothing wrong with this article. It's short, but gets to the point. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:16, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure I would have pulled, but I definitely would not have posted the article when it's in its current state. It's still a little brief, especially Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting, IMO.  Spencer T♦ C 20:28, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:17, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * We're not expected to be omniscient I am not quite sure what these mysterious "facts" are that we are waiting on. We go by reliable sources, not Saruman's Palantir. There's not a single source claiming less than 26 dead.  If we subtract the killer and his father, that means at least two dozen.  The final story won't be known for days, but we should definitely be giving people a link to our article on the front page now.  Or if we're so timid we could always relegate this to DYK, in which case we'll probably finally have it right when it's posted ... in January. μηδείς (talk) 20:23, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Strongly Admonish Tariqabjotu for defying consensus. Repost this ASAP. This is insane.--WaltCip (talk) 20:37, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: Police have confirmed 27 24 (18 children, 6 adults) dead at the school, two children dead at hospital, one adult dead at the shooter's home, shooter is dead. 28 deaths in total. But I'm satisfied now. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  20:43, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support posting now - After further consideration, I have come around. President Obama has commented on national television, and enough facts are known. I do not condemn those asking to wait further as I understand their concerns. The article, however, is acceptable, if barely, and will improve further in the next few hours. Jus  da  fax   20:47, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment I think you all need to put your emotions aside when dealing with ITN. I see no reason why being bold is an excuse to post this item and not for any other item. Tariqabjotu is right to pull it until the facts are established. ITN is not in competition with news sources to see who can have this up first. That said, it has reached the point where the majority of the facts are known, so I support it being posted shortly. -- Plasma Twa  2  20:50, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * My admonition to be bold had to do with using the blurb "two dozen" instead of an exact number. But what would be helpful to know is just what especial facts you have become aware of that this can be posted now.  Can you also give the refs?  It will move things along. μηδείς (talk) 20:55, 14 December 2012 (UTC)


 * According to WP:ITN guidelines - "For example, a highly significant event, such as the discovery of a cure for cancer, may have a sub-par update associated with it, but be posted anyway with the assumption that other editors will soon join in and improve the article." This isn't exactly the cure for cancer, but it is nonetheless an extremely internationally significant event, as warranted by the support !votes above (not a single complaint regarding U.S. centrism!). A unilateral pull of this post is defiance of consensus and goes against the guidelines of WP:ITN. It is injustice to not provide a link to the breaking article on the front page as a service to our readers and editors.--WaltCip (talk) 20:53, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Long story short, we can't get all the facts in when the editors cannot quickly find the page.--WaltCip (talk) 20:54, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * "Injustice". Any other emotionally charged rhetoric you wish to add? Resolute 21:01, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment At this moment, every statement in the article seems to have a citation. Basic details, reactions, I think this meets minimum standards. LukeSurlt c 20:51, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * This issue has been raised at WP:ANI. Ryan Vesey 20:53, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support, both a significant event and a well-referenced article. Hope it will be posted soon. Egeymi (talk) 21:02, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment Now that the cheif of police has gone on TV to confirm 20 children dead, 6 adults, the shooter deceased and possibly the shooters mom, dad or brother (the media keeps changing the story) I say its relevant enough and RS supports all the basic facts, which if not already cited by the article, reasonably will be. Let it be posted!--Bellerophon5685 (talk) 21:10, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Consensus is consensus.  Automatic Strikeout  ( T •  C ) 21:11, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't have a view about the post-pull-post thing, but it can be quite proper for consensus, as it is meant on WP, to override voting. Formerip (talk) 21:17, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Could you clarify?  Automatic Strikeout  ( T •  C ) 21:19, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm saying I think you are confusing "consensus" with "voting". The number of people who want the story posted can't necessarily translate to a statement about whether it should be posted or not. Formerip (talk) 21:23, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * So if the vast amount of people calling for the story to be posted is not a consensus, then what is? One administrator?--WaltCip (talk) 21:24, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I haven't been following. But, in principle only, it could be. Of course it could. Formerip (talk) 21:26, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I disagree. It seems pretty clear that consensus is in favor of inclusion. I don't believe administrators have the right to defy consensus.  Automatic Strikeout  ( T •  C ) 21:28, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Indeed. WP:CON states that if the action of an administrator is by and far contested, it must be reverted.--WaltCip (talk) 21:30, 14 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Post eventually, but not now. Tariq handled this exactly right, in the face of a lot of pressure. Things are changing too fast, let them settle some before we put an article on the main page. We're an encyclopedia, not a news outlet, we do not have the same time pressures they do, and we have an obligation to be more deliberate than TV news shows that absolutely must say something right now.  For example, it appears we may have misidentified the shooter.  By name. Posting this ASAP does not help anyone, it's not a race, and it's not a measure of how seriously we take the issue, or how deeply we feel about the shootings. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:24, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support - Currently the most significant and talked about event in the USA. --LlamaAl (talk) 21:34, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support of course, but as Floquenbeam notes, let's get it right rather than get it quick. BBC News has reported the shooter was incorrectly identified initially, let's get it right and then post.  Another day, another shooting.  Right to bear arms strikes again.  The Rambling Man (talk) 21:35, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Indeed. This is a self-evident argument for repealing the Second Amendment.--WaltCip (talk) 21:37, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sure you two don't mean to be insensitive, but I don't think this is a good time to argue politics.  Automatic Strikeout  ( T •  C ) 01:10, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes. Never talk about gun control when it's topical. Formerip (talk) 10:55, 15 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Post or remove ITN from the main page. It's ridiculous to have a section called "In the news" and not have something this significant. If the article isn't right we should fix it right now because it's likely lots readers are going to find it even if it's not on the main page. NE Ent 21:40, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Certainly, very notable, worse incidents of this type since the Bath School disaster unfortunately. I feel very sad for those who have been injured, and do feel that this should appear on the main page, as people can show feelings, as well as what I've already said. <font face="Impact"> TBr and  ley  21:40, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Note to admins - Tariq has stated that he'll be offline for a few hours, so the continuing assessment of this article's readiness will need to be done by another admin. LukeSurlt c 21:45, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Wait before posting - Police have not even left the crime scene, speculation and the news is flying off the handle. Major issues with the article and the coverage are related to its timeliness. Let's wait a bit before posting it up, so things can solidify some more. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 21:48, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Marking Ready Article looks decent. We dont need 100% accuracy since its current event, thats why we have a tag. Things will change as more news becomes available. For now i think its good enough to post. Any passing by admin please post. Thanks -- Ashish-g55 21:49, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * We don't have to have 100% accuracy, but let's not mistakenly name someone for a mass murder, ok? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:51, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree however i see that the name has been fixed. I dont see any major issues with article for now. -- Ashish-g55 21:54, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posted. I've not posted a new ITN blurb before, so I hope I did it correctly.  I also removed the oldest item that was already there.  Not sure what is the appropriate handling here to show that it has been done. - TexasAndroid (talk) 22:07, 14 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support second largest school shooting in US history. Note the total dead is 28 including the shooter and a body found in a nearby family home. 2010 SO16 (talk) 21:56, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support was shocked that this wasn't already on the front page. Guess beaucracy is alive and well.38.100.76.228 (talk) 22:00, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * At the moment its simply lack of Admins... Incase you havent noticed its ready to be posted just need an Admin to do it for us, so please stand by -- Ashish-g55 22:04, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * and there you go. happy? -- Ashish-g55 22:05, 14 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment I know it's emotive, but shouldn't we be clear that 20 of the victims of yet another ridiculous gun riot were children? The Rambling Man (talk) 22:08, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Well it is an elementary school... people will most likely guess its kids that got killed -- Ashish-g55 22:10, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't make that assumption. It could've been that the gunman busted into a teacher's lounge and started firing. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:29, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Entirely so, it's important to note that the majority of those shot to death by this guy, with easy access to weapons, are children. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:32, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * People are capable of clicking the blue links and reading more information in the article, where they will learn the relative ages of all of the victims. -- Jayron  32  22:37, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Why censor this? It was clear the attack was centred on murdering children.  The "relative ages of all the victims" is somewhat irrelevant when 20 of them were five years old or younger.  What's the issue here with telling the truth about this, most recent US gun crime, sadly centred on killing children?  The Rambling Man (talk) 22:41, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Weeeelll, given that the shooter's father was dead at their home, and the mother was the teacher of the classroom that was killed, and his girlfriend has gone missing, it's difficult to say that the shooter's target was the children. I don't think we should be hiding the fact that most of the victims were children, however. --M ASEM (t) 23:32, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * What has been censored? The information is plainly available at Wikipedia.  No one is preventing the information from being read.  Censorship is not a synonym for "I am not getting my way".  -- Jayron  32  01:17, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification Jayron, no-one suggested the censorship was a synonym for anything. It just struck me as significant that 20 children have been murdered in a "first-world country", that's all.  It seemed to add further weight to the ITN.  In any case, it's no longer of any relevance I suppose.  With over 10,000 deaths in the US every year from hand guns, I suppose this isn't really that significant at all.  The Rambling Man (talk) 23:19, 15 December 2012 (UTC)


 * support.the admins decision to pull based on article quality. People claiming this violated consensus need to be reminded that there is a strong consensus that articles only be posted when updated appropriately.--Johnsemlak (talk) 22:31, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted] The Tallow Candle

 * Support. I don't see much literary news on ITN, and this does seem like a historical find relating to a well known author. 331dot (talk) 03:00, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support- Everyone loves Andersen.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 04:58, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment Somewhat stale, the manuscript was actually found in October, don't know why media reported it only now. Perhaps it took some time to positively identify the finding. Brandmeistertalk  08:52, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I believe that it has only just been fully authenticated. -- Hazhk Talk to me 18:29, 14 December 2012 (UTC)


 * DYK, I'd say. As mentioned above, it's somehow old news. --Tone 11:15, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support I really hate the works of HCA myself, but finds like this are always of great interest. The October discovery is of no consequence since finds like this take time to verify, and the story is in the news now.  Very strong support. μηδείς (talk) 13:12, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support per Medeis. I'm likewise no fan, but new discoveries of works by acknowledged masters are big news. AlexTiefling (talk) 13:16, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support: HC Andersen's earliest work is undoubtedly newsworthy. -- Hazhk Talk to me 18:27, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. Newsworthy discovery of the earliest work of a significant author.-- xanchester  (t)  18:32, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support - Worldwide interest. Nice change-of-pace ITN item. Jus  da  fax   18:45, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. The Politiken source indicates that it was only confirmed recently. I don't know to change the blurb to reflect that, or if that's even necessary. Marking ready. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  19:28, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Second blurb is definitely preferable. -- Hazhk Talk to me 20:21, 14 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose. Obviously, "nice find" is an understatement. But obscure "lost" works of this type turning up is not a rare event. I remembered hearing about a Titian painting and a Beethoven hymn being unveiled in the past few weeks and so I googled...to my slight surprise, it turns out that there are two new Titians  (I actually think neither of these are the one I had heard about and two new pieces by Beethoven  all unveiled in recent weeks. I think that's just scratching the surface. Since the BBC don't seem to consider the Andersen story important enough to make it one of their featured Europe stories, I don't see why we would want to feature it here. It would qualify for DYK, though. Formerip (talk) 20:53, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support the alternate blurb.  Automatic Strikeout  ( T •  C ) 21:23, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posted a tweaked version of the alt blurb. -- Jayron  32  21:32, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

CIA sodomy/torture ruling

 * Weak Support- The blurb could use more NPOV, but this will be an interesting article for people to read on the main page. A good choice if the article is updated very well.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 04:58, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment I've proposed a modified blurb with less bias and more information about the outcome of the ruling.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 10:19, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support with the original blurb. A good example of a U.S. story that should be included on the front page that isn't too Yank-centric.--WaltCip (talk) 12:53, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose I can't imagine a more leading blurb or headline. Basically an immigrant to Germany was caught doing naughty things, got held in Macedonia, where the standards for Muslim prisoners are not that high, and now the CIA is raping German citizens?  I think this falls way under the Abner Louima and Amadou Diallo cases in notability. μηδείς (talk) 13:17, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Please watch what you're saying; you're on BLP territory here. He was not "caught doing naughty things"; he's proven innocent. And yes, he is a proven torture victim, and yes, the CIA are the perpetrators. The case may not be that notable in the US, but it sure as hell is big in the news here in Europe. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:09, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I missed it here in the UK. Or, maybe we're not part of Europe - I can't remember. 212.139.244.178 (talk) 21:35, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * You missed The Guardian linked above from the start of the nomination, I added The Telegraph which might be more to your taste. -- ELEKHHT 23:11, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Correction: a US court was not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt of the evidence for his participation in a particular attack against the United States. The biography of the man concerned in this blurb notes that he was involved in some transnational Islamist rabble-rousing in Lebanon. Therefore, the description of this man as an "innocent victim" in the blurb is an unacceptable moral judgment as to the sum of his life activities, which were definitely not apolitical. Shrigley (talk) 18:33, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Such comments that ignore the news item should be disregarded. Appalling standard for an ITN discussion. -- ELEKHHT 23:11, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Neutral - but I don't like either blurb. Courts don't 'prove', they make judgments. And while the first blurb might be, in its elements, true, it seems designed to be emotive. (I'm strongly against the policy that the story relates to - but we're supposed to report these things in NPOV fashion.) AlexTiefling (talk) 13:23, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Weak support per AlexTiefling. The case is appearing in the news media prominently, so it meets the first criteria of In The News.  With him, I don't like either blurb currently, and if this goes would strongly suggest replacing the word "proves" with "rules" or "finds" in the second blurb.  Being a scholarly source, Wikipedia needs to strive to use unemotional language as far as possible, and also needs to us accurate words.  Courts don't prove things, the rule on cases, and we need to narrowly report the ruling in a way that doesn't prime the reader to have any particular emotional response to it.  -- Jayron  32  17:43, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * As an alternative alternative blurb, I suggest the following statement from the article itself, which I think does a better job than anything above:
 * "The Grand Chamber of the European Court of Human Rights rules that Khalid El-Masri had been tortured while in CIA custody."
 * How does that sound? -- Jayron  32  17:46, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Like a bad parody of a line from the trailer of an anti-Catholic movie on the Inquisition :) μηδείς (talk) 20:28, 14 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose back page news at best. Court cases about alleged torture of terrorism suspects are basically routine; especially when the court sitting in one country rules some other country did it. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 18:24, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support - Interesting story that is ITN-worthy. International scope. I support the alternative blurb that focuses on the court ruling, as the original blurb is poorly worded. Suggest that the alternative blurb be used to replace original at the top proposal here. This story is in the news, and the alt blurb can be supported as NPOV no matter what ones personal views are on the topic. Jus  da  fax   18:42, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Categorical oppose First of all, my understanding is that the European Court of Human Rights is not a real court, as its decision set no precedent. The violating parties, their courts and legislature are free to ignore whatever it decides. This decision and other decisions by this court serve a purely moral purpose, failing to be particularly encyclopedic. --hydrox (talk) 20:42, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The ECHR has no jurisdiction over the CIA; they could say they determined the CIA is controlled by space aliens if they wanted to, it doesn't mean anything.  I agree with those who say the blurb is leading. 331dot (talk) 20:49, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Has no direct power over the CIA of course, but has been described as a "significant legal rebuff ", and the Republic of Macedonia has been fined. -- ELEKHHT 23:11, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Strong support. Significant ruling by one of most notable courts in Europe. An innocent German citizen was tortured by the United States. It can hardly get more notable than that. It is rare that the Americans get caught red-handed, and it is even more rare that a court in a Western country dares to rule against them. Nanobear (talk) 21:19, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose. Americans & CIA are best at this. So it's routine. 5.12.84.224 (talk) 23:56, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It is a "landmark ruling", so the news item is not about the routine. -- ELEKHHT 23:11, 15 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support alt blurb broad international scope, reported world-wide. Also appealing to the admins to disregard the many ignorant comments above. -- ELEKHHT 23:11, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. If the notability comes from this being the first time that ECtHR has described CIA interrogation as "torture", then why is that fact not front-and-focus in the blurb? Per hydrox and others, ECtHR is nonbinding, and there's no real world effect except for a small embarrassment to Macedonia. There didn't seem to be any real controversy over the word 'torture', except that the US government itself refused to use the word, to avoid triggering certain domestic legislative provisions. Furthermore, this opinion is not a sweeping indictment of CIA, but of an individual case. El-Masri's treatment by the US was tangential to the main issue under ECtHR's purview, which was the behavior of a European country. Shrigley (talk) 18:33, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

British payment for Gaddafi torture

 * Comment. Before commenting on the merits, this needs some sort of article to link to, and the proposed blurb should be much shorter. 331dot (talk) 02:41, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose- Obscure, UK-centric news.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 04:58, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Em, Tripoli is not in the UK? --86.40.99.24 (talk) 05:28, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Don't get confused. The story is about London's involvement, not torture in Tripoli. Therequiembellishere (talk) 10:36, 14 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose, not because it's UK related (which is not a valid objection as stated above) but because of its obscurity. We also need a blurb and article. 331dot (talk) 10:25, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose back page news at best - lawsuit settlements of individual claims are nearly always not notable. There is no article on this topic. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 18:29, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - no article and it is not a significant event, or a significant payout. Thine Antique Pen (talk) 21:49, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Michael Palmer resigns over sex scandal

 * Weak oppose. I'd support this if it was the head of state of Singapore or Singapore's head of government, but the office of Speaker is neither and I'm not yet convinced this is notable enough- though I think I could be convinced. 331dot (talk) 01:11, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose Falling on your sword is probably a good move for your party, Newt Gingrich did exactly the same. But this hardly seems earthshattering, although I am willing to be convinced otherwise. μηδείς (talk) 01:16, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose per 331dot. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 23:05, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Clarification of facts: The two Speakers Michaels both resigned the speakership and their seats in parliament. Dunno though if resigning SG MPs are routine, although I heard another MP earlier resigned that led to the Singaporean by-election, 2012 (the next previous by-election there was in 1992). – H T  D  08:07, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

"Shocking state collusion" in murder of Pat Finucane; PM says he is "deeply sorry"

 * Comment. I considered handling this, as it's major news—but the findings aren't actually new (state collusion was already acknowledged previously), and without an independent inquiry, this is really another step in a story that is neither new nor over. (Though with this, widespread rioting, assaults on politicians' homes, etc, it might be worth looking at a short-lived NI sticky) GRAPPLE   X  00:44, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Strong Support despite the objections pointed out above, this event has impact and is certainly in the news, and I think many readers will be coming to Wikipedia to read further about this event and the recent findings. Additionally, the event in question and the surrounding subjects are not straightforward in the same way that, say, the death of an artist or the arrival of a hurricane are.  The strength of Wikipedia is that there are very nice, fleshed out wiki pages for this event and surrounding subjects that could very quickly inform a naïve reader in a way that strict news publications could not.  Lastly, I would suggest that an event like this, which seems in increase in breadth and scope with every turn, will never be "over" in any clear sense. 130.188.8.27 (talk) 09:02, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support - Cameron's apology is the newsworthy item for me. He calls it "shocking" that the government was involved in the assassination, and that is also big news. Wording the blurb may be tricky, but it is worth getting it on ITN. Jus  da  fax   09:35, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * oppose local uk issue. Myanmar apologised for the violence on monks a week ago, other apologies are not common but not rare either.Lihaas (talk) 13:01, 13 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support if made about the apology itself. Geographic objections ("a local UK issue") are not valid("Do not complain about an event only relating to a single country."). I probably would have endorsed Myanmar being included. 331dot (talk) 14:01, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support A very important story for the UK. doktorb wordsdeeds 14:37, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose only of national significance. As Lihaas touches on, other governments committ and then later make statements regarding crimes with many more victims. In this context we need to place the story in an international perspective. LukeSurlt c 15:10, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The fact that other events with similar apologies were not nominated is not relevant. While this involves an event only within the UK, it is of interest to Irish people in Ireland and elsewhere. 331dot (talk) 15:16, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It should be noted that this section of the main page is titled "In the news" not "What we wish were In The News" or "Definately Not The Stuff We Wish Weren't In The News". The two overriding criteria is "Is it a prominent in the News" (sources will tell us that) and "Is the article of a state that makes it worthwhile to appear on the main page".  Our personal wishes and desires as to what news sources will and will not find themselves worth giving prominence to is not how we decide what should pass or fail a nomination here.  -- Jayron  32  15:21, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, it has been very prominent indeed in UK news. It is insular in the extreme to assume that because your preferred local news carrier does not prioritise it that it is an invention of someone's desire.  Kevin McE (talk) 20:15, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Items on ITN are only there because someone nominated them and others agreed with it(in other words, what they thought should be on ITN)- based on their personal opinions as to its prominence, notability, and the state of the article- so I'm not sure how personal judgement can be removed from the process. If someone doesn't believe it to be notable, prominent, or an appropriately styled article, they should say so- but that doesn't preclude others from disagreeing. 331dot (talk) 15:52, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * "We didn't have this, so we can't have the other" falls foul of ITN rules and OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, so Lihaas' vote can be ignored (as they so often are anyway) doktorb wordsdeeds 16:06, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Since youre so concerned about WP guidelines, NPA = comment on CONENT nt editors.
 * As opposed to yoru harem of frivolous local nomination turning it into WP UK!Lihaas (talk) 18:13, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The last UK blurb to get posted was over a month ago. Just saying. Formerip (talk) 20:51, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Are you saying that UK nominations are invalid in all cases? And are you saying that NPA doesn't matter if calling me the controller of "a harem of frivolous local nominations"? doktorb wordsdeeds 18:45, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Last I checked, the Republic of Ireland is not a part of the UK, and this is being reported there. 331dot (talk) 18:19, 13 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose This is a report 23 years after the fact, and not an arrest, conviction or even resignation. The scope strikes me as very similar to the Penn State scandal, a very emotional scandal of high local interest, but not a story on the world stage or one attached to a great article.  I can understand the pros, but don't think this should push other news off the front page. μηδείς (talk) 17:50, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Reminder: "Do not complain about an event only relating to a single country." So what if it's a local issue? You could classify all murders as local issues; are we therefore excluding murder cases from contention on ITN? Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  20:34, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I opposed it on the basis of it being a report of a matter out of the news for 23 years that deals with no arrest, conviction or even resignation. Is that clear?  I sympathised with the pro votes as well, understanding that this is obviously a strongly felt-about local issue.  Is that clear?  Wouldn't want anybody to think I was opposing this because it didn't happen in the US. μηδείς (talk) 21:00, 13 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Weak oppose. What we should have done is posted when the official acknowledgement of state collusion happened. We rejected that nomination, though. This report doesn't seem to contain anything additional of earth-shattering importance. Formerip (talk) 21:06, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose this report is not notable enough for ITN, this was not a massive media story like some other reports regarding northern ireland, such as bloody sunday. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:57, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted] Mali update

 * Speedy support. ASAP, uncontroversial modification.-- xanchester  (t)  13:31, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support, but since the coup has ended on 8 April according to that article, it shouldn't be bolded. Brandmeistertalk  16:44, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support, agree that the PM should be bolded instead. -- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 16:46, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support, significant event; the blurb includes the PM bolded.Egeymi (talk) 16:59, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I've just seen this one, updating. --Tone 00:20, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted] Ravi Shankar dies

 * Support full blurb, how can he not even be in the ticker of recent deaths yet? He is one of the most revered musicians in modern history. Times of India and NYT are featuring it front and center.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 05:52, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support full blurb - Internationally famous music star who cut across ethnic and generational barriers. Jus  da  fax   05:59, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Full Blurb This is Ravi Shankar we are talking about here. As stated above he was by far one of most famous musicians. As far as Indians go he is one of select few that would deserve full blurb. He is one of Bharat Ratna holder. Please check that list and who is on it before making any comment if you did not know the guy. Most news paper out there have him featured front page right now -- Ashish-g55 06:00, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * comment not updated.Lihaas (talk) 06:16, 12 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support full blurb no brainer; one of the greatest and most influential musicians of the last n decades who has gone to meet George Harrison. --  Ohconfucius  ping / poke 06:19, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Full Blurb Huge name, article has source calling him "the most famous Indian musician on the planet" by 1966. Since that time there has not been a more famous one. Also, father of Norah Jones. Abductive  (reasoning) 06:20, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for RD Discussion on talk page is consolidating around very very restrictive access of deaths to blurb status: discussion not going much farther than Queen Eliz, Pope Benedict, Mandela etc. Of course such a principle should have been laid down in guidelines before enacting RD line, but... Kevin McE (talk) 06:44, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Note - This has been posted to recent deaths (not by me). I'm not sure if this was only intended as a stopgap measure or what, but it can always be "upgraded" if necessary. --Bongwarrior (talk) 06:47, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Who is unilaterally posting things per their personal whims? There is a reason we have ITNC and its now updated and also with the caveat of a full blurb by the vast majorityLihaas (talk) 06:57, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It just looks like an admin who is unfamiliar with ITN who was trying to help. I don't think they were trying to push any sort of preference or agenda or anything, and there's no harm in having it there until it is given a full posting, as appears likely. --Bongwarrior (talk) 07:07, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * No harm? Then whats the point in having consenssu discussion if it doesnt matter?Lihaas (talk) 09:24, 12 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support Full Blurb one of perhaps half a dozen musicians who should definitely be posted. Black Kite (talk) 07:24, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Full Blurb for reasons explained above. Chocolate Horlicks (talk) 08:08, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Full Blurb but sitar should be in the blurb. -- ELEKHHT 09:01, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment There's near unanimous agreement that this should be posted as a full blurb, but I'm hesitant to do so since this seems contrary to the discussions going on at WP:ITNT. --  tariq abjotu  09:08, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It's your's to post, then, but I wouldn't hesitate to post...if the discussions are currently ongoing then consensus has not yet been determined to have changed. Ks0stm  (T•C•G•E) 09:15, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed, discussion at ITNT mean there is no consensus eyet, not a reason to hold back on presumption of conclusion without one.Lihaas (talk) 09:24, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The consensus seems to favour the upgrade to a full blurb. Done. --Tone 10:01, 12 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support Full Blurb This was front page news this morning, and I expected this would be going up as a full blurb--just happy to see it done so quickly for once. This shows that the system is working.  Noms like Jenni Rivers are not being rejected as not deserving a full blurb, and Noms like Shankar are getting the full treatment they deserve.  Of course there will be borderline battle, but throwing the baby out the window won't prevent the dirtying of future dishwater. μηδείς (talk) 14:43, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose full blurb. Sorry, I have to oppose this in principle the same way I opposed Brubeck, and second user Kevin McE above. He is notable, but not exceptionally notable to an overwhelming degree to warrant a blurb. Seems to me like all that RD has done is decrease the threshold for an RD post, but maintained basically the same threshold for blurb posts as before. Colipon+ (Talk) 15:49, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * oppose full blurb, support RD. this might be close to notable enough for a full blurb but I agree with colipon and kevin.--Johnsemlak (talk) 16:48, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Blurb if we want to add more info, sitar player makes sense, but we don't usually give the local of death unless there's a reason. μηδείς (talk) 16:51, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose full blurb, Support RD. He is well known in many countries but only, IMO, because of his association with George Harrison.  Without that I strongly suspect that his fame would be only a small fraction of what it is.  I think it is generally accepted that Dave Brubeck should not have had a full blurb and I would contend that Brubeck is as well known as Shankar and that all of Brubeck's fame is for his work and not his association. FerdinandFrog (talk) 17:15, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support fully, just in case someone thinks it's a good idea to pull. His influence in Western media isn't restricted to George Harrison. This guy was big. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  18:10, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose blurb, support ticker are you kidding? A silver bear at BIFF in 1957? At a time when we're debating when to use a blurb vs ticker, this is absolutely not a blurb item. It's light years away from the Pope shooting Obama. An old performer dies, that was barely a blurb in the past, now it's definately not. Get it out of there right away. Pull --IP98 (talk) 18:39, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Seriously? I think it might be a good idea to go and have a look at the coverage this is having worldwide - and that's the important part, really. "An old performer dies" is like describing the death of, say, Michael Jackson as "some weird guy dies". Incidentally - 54,000 Google News results for "Ravi Shankar"+death already. I realise a lot of them will be irrelevant, but that's a huge amount of hits. Black Kite (talk) 18:52, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * "It's light years away from the Pope shooting Obama". Yes, very thankfully, and that's why it deserves respectful prominence. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:50, 12 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Belated full support I'm against the posting of most deaths to full blurbs, but Shankar is one of the few elite individuals whose death merits it. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:00, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Why no picture? There isn't a picture up right now, so why not use one of Shankar? – Muboshgu (talk) 21:51, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree that a photo of him is a good idea. Jus  da  fax   21:58, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support ticker only. I'm not convinced this person was notable enough to warrant a full blurb. 331dot (talk) 22:41, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Was just given quite an in-depth three minute slot at the end of BBC News at Ten. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:05, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose full blurb and suggest pulling it, since this person did not have a wide impact on the world. Nergaal (talk) 00:46, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Strong support keeping full blurb. Shankar was an iconic cultural figure with enormous worldwide impact. The opposers might want to bother to read some press-coverage. E.g. Slate writes:"It is impossible to overstate Shankar’s impact on popular music and culture. He was more than a great sitar player; he was an essential bridge from India to the Western world.". CNN writes: "If there was a musician who transcended the difficult boundaries between East and West, it was sitar maestro Ravi Shankar." And so on. Nsk92 (talk) 02:06, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Apparently he even appeared in a little musical get-together, somewhere in New York, organised by somone called George? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:53, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Image We do have this cropped free image or its parent image avail for posting with the blurb. μηδείς (talk) 17:55, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted] First North Korean satellite launch

 * Comment. If they let that unicorn pilot it, this is definitely ITN-worthy. GRAPPLE   X  03:45, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment. NORAD seems to confirm that an object was indeed put in orbit. NORAD acknowledges missile launch Hektor (talk) 07:46, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Strong support pending expansion of the article. Satellite launches are ITN/R, the first successful launch by a country is highly notable, and in this case especially so as it is controversial. I've also added a suggested blurb to the template. -- W.  D.   Graham  08:14, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support although I would strongly oppose language that tries to editorialize this as "controversial." All satellite programs in every country began as thinly veiled ICBM tests.  130.188.8.27 (talk) 08:48, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed, I proposed the blurb "North Korea successfully launches its first satellite, Kwangmyŏngsŏng-3, using a Unha-3 carrier rocket." as it seemed fairly neutral. I was just saying that it had achieved a lot of international coverage because of the controversy, making it even more worthy of inclusion. -- W.  D.   Graham  08:57, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. Huge news. If there is any doubt over whether the launch was a complete success, or whether the "object" in space is a working satellite, removing the word "successfully" would resolve this. —WFC— FL wishlist 10:18, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The launch is widely regarded as having been successful, and NORAD have confirmed that three objects have been detected in orbit. Since the nomination, the article has been expanded significantly and is probably nearly ready now, however the reactions section could probably use some more information. -- W.  D.   Graham  13:40, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * North Korean media are referring to the satellite as "《광명성―3》호 2호기", or Kwangmyongsong-3 Unit 2, so I've renamed the article and adjusted the blurb accordingly. I think this is about ready to go now. -- W.  D.   Graham  14:53, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. Mainstream is running with it. Likely it was successful. Important geopolitical event. —&#91;  Alan M 1  (talk) &#93;— 15:33, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support given what various sources have stated while still fully investigating exactly how "successful" it was. --M ASEM (t) 15:36, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: I've removed the ready tag, as the section titled "Launch" at the bolded article (which is the obvious relevant section and article here) has "citation needed" tags and zero inline references. If that is fixed, I will post this. -- Jayron  32  19:54, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support- All indications are that it was success, but there is still more to be found out.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 22:10, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support: The last few launches were added to ITN, this time the launch was actually successful. Addition seems natural to me. --  李博杰  &#124; —Talk contribs email 02:01, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: More supports won't get this up on the main page any faster. More citations in the update will.  -- Jayron  32  03:12, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posted. References have now been added.  Spencer T♦ C 06:08, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Bonzer. -- Jayron  32  14:55, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Arrest of Cayman Islands PM

 * Wait. Possibly quite a while. This doesn't look like ITN material at the moment, but it could be a grower. Formerip (talk) 21:01, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support The arrest of a head of government on charges related to his activities in that office is noteworthy. Heads of government being arrested while in office is a rare event. 331dot (talk) 21:09, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support This doesn't seem to lack for international coverage. μηδείς (talk) 21:13, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * wait per FormerIP, more context i s needed and if its a constitutional crisis. Oppose not head of state and not a sogvereign entity. Also in line with doktorbuk's assertion of "opposeing anti-british vote", opposes his nomination bombing of local british issues.Lihaas (talk) 21:20, 11 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support, very commonly covered notable event.Egeymi (talk) 21:24, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Very notable event. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 22:18, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - Another nomination of a worthy blurb for ITN, but a there is a very thin update in the subject's article. I want to support but I also want more text. Jus  da  fax   23:52, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose- Mostly British focus; Cayman Islands are not a sovereign state. PM isn't that big a deal for rest of the world.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 00:37, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose The arrest of the leader of a a non-sovereign state with a total population of 54,878 isn't major news. Nick-D (talk) 07:16, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support a) Against Bzweebl's anti-British vote, and b) interesting and unusual story involving a head of state being involved in legal proceedings. Nick - "Major news" is not a valid ITN consideration. doktorb wordsdeeds 07:48, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * AFAIK, the Premier of the Cayman Islands is not the head of state of the Cayman Islands. – H T  D  09:16, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Not to mention that the Cayman Islands are an overseas territory, not a state.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 22:12, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Question is it illegal for the PM to import explosives into his own country? This seems rather bizarre to me. 130.188.8.27 (talk) 08:51, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The transport of explosives is usually restricted. I doubt the PM was buying them for the Cayman Islands military. 331dot (talk) 10:24, 12 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose Not a country and I don't see why it's "anti-British" to say so. If this was the Chief Minister of Maharashtra or the Governor of Florida or the Minister-President of Lower-Saxony, we wouldn't be paying this much attention to it because we would all know these aren't countries. That misconception cleared up, there is no significant standing to post this. Therequiembellishere (talk) 22:16, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * If the Governor of Florida was arrested for alleged illegal activities they conducted while in office, I would support its listing in ITN. It doesn't have to involve a nation to be significant or newsworthy. 331dot (talk) 22:39, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yet not in the cases of the other hypotheticals, which would doubtless raise calls of an American bias. Therequiembellishere (talk) 23:57, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I didn't think it necessary to specifically state that I would support those other hypothetical situations, since they were of a similar nature. 331dot (talk) 00:23, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Aqrab bombing

 * Oppose. The sticky is there precisely so we don't have to consider the day-by-day developments for ITN. Nominating them anyway and suggesting we suspend the sticky defeats the whole object. Formerip (talk) 21:03, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * But that doesnt preclude large scale single incidents, it is, as you say, to avoid the "day-to-day developments". We have posted individual vents before.Lihaas (talk) 21:18, 11 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose on the grounds listed by FormerIP. 331dot (talk) 21:10, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support A sticky doesn't make the murder of 125 citizens of their own government unnotable. μηδείς (talk) 21:16, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Tens of thousands of people have been murdered by the Syrian government, which is why it is a sticky; it's an ongoing event. 331dot (talk) 21:33, 11 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose The sticky for Syria and connected purposes is adequate doktorb wordsdeeds 21:22, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose per FormerIP, 331dot and Doktobuk, we have the sticky for Syria.Egeymi (talk) 21:26, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. In principle I think Lihaas has a point; we shouldn't allow the sticky to swallow every Syria-related story without question. However I don't think this is an exception we should post. Tragically, deaths of dozens of people are a "normal" part of the current war. For a posting it would need to be an development in the conflict such as the fall of Damascus or the flight of Assad from the country. LukeSurlt c 00:02, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted to RD] RD:Galina Vishnevskaya

 * Oppose completely Would not pass "blurb test" and certainly is not well known enough for the front page anyway, so can't make it to ticker either. doktorb wordsdeeds 20:03, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for ticker. Highly-decorated individual, seems to have been a highly-merited example within her field. Given the closed nature of the USSR it's not surprising someone can be thought of as highly inside it and little-known outside it. Not widely-regarded enough for a full blurb but a ticker appearance seems in order. GRAPPLE   X  20:08, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Completely Unopposed Seems to have quite a following on you tube. I am entirely unqualified to make a judgment based on personal knowledge, but could support this if convinced--let's see some tributes and why she's more important than your average Jane Donova. μηδείς (talk) 20:12, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: Galina_Vishnevskaya could use a few more references, and possibly a bit more expansion.  Spencer T♦ C 20:23, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment. I know nothing of opera (never quite understood what the difference between it and musical theatre is, apart from the dress code). I'm not sure how to determine where Vishnevskaya ranks among opera singers. Nothing in the article currently says "very notable" to me, though that could be my ignorance of the field, and what awards etc. are important. On general grounds, the article currently seems quite short for someone of high notability. LukeSurlt c 23:40, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support- Strongly agree with the contention that she is at the top of her field.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 00:39, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. Not sure how to prove eminence in opera for people who have no interest in it, but Vishnevskaya has an entry in the The New Grove Dictionary of Opera (available at Grove Music Online, for those with subscription), which calls her "one of the outstanding Russian singers". (The NGDO entry, along with Britten writing music for her, shows that her fame wasn't limited to Russia. She sang at the Bolshoi, but also occasionally in the West, at Covent Garden, La Scala and the Metropolitan.) --Hegvald (talk) 19:30, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Looking at readership interest, I think it's quite clear this nom has more weight than Iajuddin Ahmed which I think should be pulled to allow this one to be posted. See the stats I have posted under Iajuddin Ahmed below. μηδείς (talk) 18:15, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Any reason why this hasn't been posted? Support is dominant over other opinion, hits on the article reflect interest.  Kevin McE (talk) 18:27, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The issues with referencing that I pointed out above haven't been resolved. Other than that, I'm willing to live with the current amount of information in the article (although for someone who is that notable should have a longer section about his/her career, like for example June Anderson is a good amount of information about her career).  Spencer T♦ C 19:56, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * There is no material challenged or likely to be challenged in the article that does not seem to be covered by the references already there. Multiplicity of references is no great virtue, so long as claims are backed up by a reliable source.  Kevin McE (talk) 20:17, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posted to RD. Not all the material was covered under the existing references, so I added another reference to qualm my concerns.  Spencer T♦ C 00:38, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Gay marriage

 * Oppose This is about legislation that hasn't been proposed yet, at least if my interpretation is correct. Gay marriage was ratified by voters in four US states last month, and that was rejected here. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:38, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - a largely expected and procedural development in one country. Also this is only in the stages of statements in the Commons, rather than actual legislation. The actual passing of the law legaling gay marriage in the UK may be an ITN item, but not this. LukeSurlt c 19:41, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose A minor detail of a proposal in the early stage of its journey towards legislation. Kevin McE (talk) 19:59, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Would just love to see how Britain will legalise a religious heresy and then exclude its state church from practising the same. I assume we must have a great article to go with this. μηδείς (talk) 20:15, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose per the reasoning given by those above. 331dot (talk) 21:12, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - This is still just another announcement. Wait for the final act to pass. AlexTiefling (talk) 22:12, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose until the actual passage of the law occurs. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 22:19, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - back of the queue, please – nothing ground-breaking here. --  Ohconfucius  ping / poke 06:39, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Ready: Chess: historically all-time-high FIDE rating

 * Question. Is this a world or national title?  I'm not clear on that. 331dot (talk) 10:44, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Effectively this means that, according to the official numerical rankings (which have an extremely complicated system to them ), Carlsen is now the best chess player who ever lived. The article FIDE World Rankings needs a simple description of how the rankings are derived before we could consider posting. Probably needs to come from someone more chess-literate than me. --LukeSurlt c 11:22, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I changed to link to the article Elo rating system, which describes the ranking system (not described in detail in FIDE World Rankings). The article Comparison of top chess players throughout history may also have some relevance. Oceanh (talk) 12:47, 11 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support - Interesting and internationally notable as well as historic. ITN-worthy, as well. Jus  da  fax   12:58, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support as a notable all-time global achievement, via the most widely-accepted yardstick in a game of widespread notability. Chess articles on Wikipedia are extensive and generally very good. LukeSurlt c 14:39, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I've suggested a more succinct altblurb. LukeSurlt c 14:46, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support the suggested alt blurb; much better than the original. Oceanh (talk) 15:33, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for alt blurb. Nergaal (talk) 17:48, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support given explanation by LukeSurl. 331dot (talk) 21:15, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment. The conclusion of the London Chess Classic occurred on 10 December, not the 11th. I believe Carlsen actually guaranteed his ranking in the penultimate round, (9 December?). The official FIDE rankings are actually published at the beginning of each month, though they can be precisely anticipated by tracking results. I've leave it to an admin to determine the relevant date for the story. LukeSurlt c 00:37, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support- It's not the world championships, but one could argue it's even bigger.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 00:43, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support - wunderkind, and the hottest property in chess at the moment. And I love the story for not being a terrorist attack, a political item or a death. --  Ohconfucius  ping / poke 07:04, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support but wait until the new FIDE rating list is out on 1 January 2013. Breaking the all-time record rating is a very big deal.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 15:22, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - this has been proposed too early. I would support it being posted when two criteria have been met: (1) the new list has been officially published; and (2) the articles in question have been updated with the news that has been published about this so far and will be published around 1 January 2013. I would oppose this item being posted at ITN now, as all the articles in question still (rightly) list Kasparov's rating as the highest-ever official one. Carlsen's live rating won't change between now and his new rating being confirmed with the publication of the official list, but we still need to wait. FWIW, I had intended to post a similar nomination on or around 1 January 2013 (it will have been three years exactly since Carlsen became the youngest world number one, an item that appeared on ITN back then in January 2010: see discussion here and the archived item here), but this item being proposed now has made things a bit awkward (it is 20 days to wait). Can the nomination be put on hold, or should it be withdrawn and re-done closer to the time? If it helps, I have a picture of Carlsen from the recent London Chess Classic. It is not great, and others may have better photos, but I could upload it if needed. The coverage in newspapers of this new record can be seen in this Chessbase news article (you need to scroll down to the end). I would also support the alternate blurb being used - no need to mention the winning of the London Chess Classic, that's not the point of the item. The time between now and 1 January 2013 could be spent working out which articles will need to be updated to reflect the new record: FIDE World Rankings, Garry Kasparov, Magnus Carlsen, Comparison of top chess players throughout history, List of FIDE chess world number ones, chess, Elo rating system, List of world records in chess. Those were the ones I found on a search for 'Kasparov' and '2851'. Carcharoth (talk) 20:27, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted] Arrest and resignation of Mali PM

 * Support for impact, but the linked article is really quite short, and for a man with his fingers is so many projects I'm a little surprised. I suggest changing the bolded article to 2012_Malian_coup_d'état and updating that one instead. It will give a better background and summary of events thus far for a naïve reader, and really the story here is the effects of the coup and not strictly the PM 130.188.8.27 (talk) 08:04, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Good point. I've changed the bolded article.-- xanchester  (t)  08:15, 11 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support the article about the coup itself. The overthrow of a government is certainly noteworthy. 331dot (talk) 10:46, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Arrest of a sitting prime minister seems noteworthy, and this is on the BBC's front page. I've also added more of an update to the article. -- Khazar2 (talk) 13:01, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support - per nom and Khazar2. Jus  da  fax   13:06, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support re: notability, though I'm unsure as to which article is the best primary. While 2012 Malian coup d'état does discuss this, the dates given in the infobox and the lead (which is what readers will first see) all suggest the event ended in May. LukeSurlt c 14:36, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * As I understand it, the PM was appointed after the coup to restore order, but now the coup leaders have arrested him. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 22:21, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Highly notable event. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 22:21, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Ready with 2012 Malian coup d'état as updated article.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 00:40, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Marking as ready in header. -- Khazar2 (talk) 04:49, 12 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Posted. I also made some minor adjustments to the blurb, hopefully they are agreeable. --Bongwarrior (talk) 05:18, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment' I've just amended this per a suggestion at Main Page/Errors as the grammar wasn't great. Nick-D (talk) 07:18, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

HSBC

 * Support impact is multinational, concerning both business and government, and rises above standard "company fined for regulations violations" stories because money laundering falls within criminal law (in the US at least). There's no obvious update to the HSBC article that I could find on a cursory glance, however 130.188.8.27 (talk) 07:39, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - An interesting story, I agree. I found that the HBSC article has a skimpy one-paragraph update regarding this matter buried in the history section. I'd like to see more since the story appears to concern money-laundering and "terrorism." Again, I think this is very good ITN material, but can't support just yet. Jus  da  fax   07:44, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * But, but, but, the money's in Bill's house...!  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 07:51, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Other potential articles could be Terrorism financing and financial crime. It might be best to leave a simple mention of the fine on the HSBC page, and link to more fleshed out details of the case on one of those pages. 130.188.8.27 (talk) 07:52, 11 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support. International impact. A 'watershed' event. Colipon+ (Talk) 17:14, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * As Jusdafax points out, this is probably ITN material, but the article update is inadequate. Similar to below, I think this would need to break out into its own article, rather than be confined to HSBC, to be able to cover the story to sufficient detail. LukeSurlt c 19:44, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support - This is important news IMO. -- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 03:14, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support: record fine. This is historic and highly significant news for the banking industry, and warrants more than one sentence in the article, though. --  Ohconfucius  ping / poke 07:55, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Maria Ridulph killer sentenced
Oppose, stub page doesn't even say how he was caught. Also, not remotely ITN material. Abductive (reasoning) 07:31, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Oppose Text of the article does not support the blurb, not really ITN, of only local interest. Mt king (edits) 07:47, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment. Needs a considerable amount of expansion. Might be better for DYK instead of ITN.-- xanchester  (t)  10:12, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. More suitable for DYN. 331dot (talk) 10:46, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * What is DYN? Kevin McE (talk) 19:59, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, meant DYK. Had the "n" in "know" on the brain I guess. :) 331dot (talk) 21:13, 11 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment: I'll just address a few things. First, the text of the article certainly supports the blurb, I don't realize where Mtking says it doesn't.  Second, I created a rather short version of the article in the hopes that somebody else would be able to assist in developing the article since I am currently more busy studying for finals.  Third, I fail to understand how it is "not remotely ITN material".  It is of clear significance and it is in the news recently. Ryan Vesey 14:53, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose Police solve murder, court convicts. Person vast majority of us have never heard of died, another person we haven't heard of goes to prison: what's the story? Kevin McE (talk) 19:59, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * You guys are being ridiculous if you don't think the sentencing of a case that received the attention of J. Edgar Hoover and President Eisenhower isn't significant. It's not another solved murder, it's the oldest unsolved murder to result in an arrest in the US.  It's also getting international coverage, here is an article in the Daily Mail. Ryan Vesey 21:25, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * But the trial finished in September, so solving of the case is not the news. The only news now is that someone convicted of murder got a life sentence.  That is perfectly routine in the US.  If the murder 55 years ago were really that notorious, theer should have been an article on it long before today. Kevin McE (talk) 22:00, 11 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment: The article is new, so this could go up on DYK if it meets all the requirements there.  Spencer T♦ C 23:03, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll probably end up taking it to DYK. Ryan Vesey 23:22, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted] Recent Death: Iajuddin Ahmed

 * Comment: Iajuddin_Ahmed needs massive expansion if that's all that was written about his 6 1/2 year presidency. Also, Iajuddin_Ahmed is quite unclear as to what was happening...is this during his presidency as well?  Spencer T♦ C 21:43, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Obvious support. Pretty controversial tenure from what I can see. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  01:11, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Weak Oppose partly because I don't think being a former head of state alone makes one notable, but mostly because I still can't figure out what his big deal was. The presidency section is about two books he wrote? Bangladeshi politics and government is confusing to me, there is supposed to be a caretaker government to hand over power, but the military also imposed one for an extended period? Was he the head of state during this period? A drive by reader on the English WP should be able to figure out why this person is notable without a ton of effort, IMO. --IP98 (talk) 01:32, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. It's updated and he would have qualified for a blurb under the old regime, so he's ticker material. I notice from the article he died following heart surgery. Maybe we need to be a bit sensitive in our use of the word "ticker". Formerip (talk) 01:50, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support – section regarding death has been updated, so there's no need for a "massive expansion" as stated in the first comment. —Bloom6132 (talk) 02:14, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. The death of a head of state is notable, especially when the individual was the head of state of such a populous country. 331dot (talk) 02:59, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posted for RD. -- Jayron  32  03:05, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Pull and replace with Galina Vishnevskaya. This listing never broke 4,000 readers even when posted on the front page and was under 2,800 yesterday.  Galina Vishnevskaya has had over 11,000 hits total in the last two days without being on the front page, getting more hits yesterday than  Ahmed did at his peak. μηδείς (talk) 18:12, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted] Ghanaian general election, 2012

 * Article needs some sections fleshed out (for example, the "Parliamentary Results" section near the bottom). Otherwise, looks acceptable.  Will support when ready. 130.188.8.27 (talk) 08:50, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support, obviously significant.Egeymi (talk) 09:25, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It's not about significance, it's on ITN/R, so there's almost no point voting at all. doktorb wordsdeeds 13:39, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I've been told that the point is to evaluate the quality of the blurb and article, as both could still be rejected on those grounds, just not on its significance or merits, as any ITN/R event is already deemed acceptable on those grounds. 331dot (talk) 14:09, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * was wondering why it hadnt been updated. Or trater nominated here.
 * I would also add "amid allegations of fraud" since the result was controversial.
 * btw- there is no update ;whatsoever not a single line of prose and a "voter turnour" with nothing but pics. Also ono mention of the fraud thats widely covered.Lihaas (talk) 15:33, 10 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support controversy section updated. Whats the big deal with a prose update for results anyway? A table says all that needs to be said... --IP98 (talk) 16:24, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * comment: controversy setion is not updated, it deals with content priot to the electon not the allegations of fraud as a result. As AGF, what are you seeing as an updae?
 * Secondly, having been on ITNC for ages you should be well aware that there are update requirements here of a few sentences of prose.Lihaas (talk) 17:09, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * For Pete's sake, a results table has been added with all the info about the election results. Allegations of fraud have to be proven before they are added here (i.e. ballot box stuffing, voter intimidation, etc.).  If not, they remain just allegations. —Bloom6132 (talk) 17:16, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * And for the record, this is only my fourth ITN nomination (hardly "ages"). Stop conjuring up false assumptions. —Bloom6132 (talk) 19:47, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * "For Pete's sake" get familiar with ITN before demanding your whim and fancy. ITN DOES require prose. And further i was talking in response to the comment above not your nomination so dont accuse me of "ages". If you dont know how this works then you should be the last person to throw your top off!. And allegation DO have a RS so they can be added! WP:DICK
 * Anyhoo, Ghanaian_general_election,_2012 is updated enough, just needs organising from 1 sentence paras.Lihaas (talk) 18:31, 11 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment- I'm with Lihaas on this; the results need prose. Try adding some reactions.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 18:20, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Done. Added a ton of prose to the new section "Post-election controversy". —Bloom6132 (talk) 19:35, 10 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Given the amount of expansion that has been done, I think this is now ready to be posted. —Bloom6132 (talk) 21:48, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support posting now - I've made a few edits that should hopefully mean the article is a little more polished. It's not brilliant, but I think it now meets ITN standards. --LukeSurlt c 22:15, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment- There is still no prose about the results. What we're posting is the results, not the controversies, so that is the section that needs to be updated.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 22:54, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I think the controversy and allegations are the reaction to the results. I don't think any news agency is going to cover any other aspect of an incumbent being re-elected until that is resolved. LukeSurlt c 23:24, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed. And based on a previous example, the Canadian federal election, 2011 article was posted in ITN in May of that year.  The results section at the time it was posted did not include any prose.  Just one big table.  A table is enough for the readers to understand; no need to explain the results verbatim. —Bloom6132 (talk) 23:30, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I have made several edits to the article, including significantly expanding the 'reaction' section. I hope this is now considered adequate by all to post. LukeSurlt c 23:58, 10 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support - ITN/R, article is decent now, let's go Main page with the blurb. Jus  da  fax   01:41, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posted -- Jayron  32  03:10, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

[posted ticker] Death of Jenni Rivera full blurb

 * Oppose blurb. Blurbs should be for bona fide, ground-breaking near geniuses only. I don't know enough about her to offer comment regarding the ticker. Formerip (talk) 00:12, 10 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose blurb/neutral ticker a latin grammy nomination is a far cry from the top of field. Remember the old ITN/DC requirements? The National Coalition against battered women and domestic violence (there is a coalition opposing these poor women??) might be noteworthy, but there is nothing in her article which establishes significant notability. Football player in a car crash ~= singer in a plane crash, IMO. --IP98 (talk) 00:20, 10 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Neutral. On the one hand the standard is so high that Patrick Moore and Oscar Niemeyer have been overlooked for recent full blurb treatment. From the content of her article and what is presented here I'm not sure this person even achieved what they did. Alternatively, she may be to the banda and norteña music genres what Dave Brubeck was to progressive jazz so maybe she stands a chance, particularly as she died so early. I'm so confused about what the standards are that are being used I can't decide. --86.40.106.60 (talk) 00:21, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: Article is very brief when it comes to musical career and impact in the genre.  Spencer T♦ C 00:23, 10 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose full blurb. I gather she has had some degree of success, but was nowhere near as important within her field as the contents of the current ticker, let alone the standards we seem to have set for full blurbs. GRAPPLE   X  00:23, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose blurb per the reasons given. Neutral on ticker listing. 331dot (talk) 00:51, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose- If anything she belongs as a blurb because the death was notable and not the person, but she is not significant enough for that.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 01:07, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Ticker only Since advent of ticker, I would advocate blurb only for major world news deaths (Mandela, Queen, Thatcher, Pope are most likely to be the next big enough). Kevin McE (talk) 01:15, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The thing is that she's not well-known outside Spanish speaking countries, but in Mexico and other counties she was one of their biggest female superstars. Her contributions with Banda and Nortena music making it mainstream is the equivalent to Selena making Tejano music mainstream. ABC link shows some of her accomplishments, and celebrities reactions are starting to pour in. I could get links together as it is still a developing and tragic story, but considering that major United States outlets is covering the story as mostly front page news shows her importance to the Spanish community. I'm familiar with the Spanish music genre, and I wouldn't nominate the deaths of any Latin American singers unless they are of unquestioned notability (Julio Iglesias, Sergio Dalma, Gloria Estefan and a few others). A recent death ticker is fine as well, I only nominated for full blurb as the death was shocking and unexpected. Secret account 01:23, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose Completely Right, this is getting silly now. Since we allowed the ticker, it's been death after death after death, with an ever lowering line for acceptance, and it's worsening both the debate on this page and the look of the ITN box on the main page. I am sure this woman was a lovely person but in all other circumstances she wouldn't have been even nominated, never mind close to having her name on the front page of Wikipedia. Simply not important, notable, or well known enough, at all, by any measure, and that we're considering her nomination seriously shows how far we've plunged to placate the warring factions who now dominate debate here. I'll ask admins for some sanity. Is this woman notable enough by our usual measurements? No. So let's move on. doktorb wordsdeeds 03:32, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Strong support for ticker oppose for full blurb. Notable singer, notable death; however, she doesn't meet the level necessary for a full blurb. Ryan Vesey 03:36, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * What US bias? There had been two Latino-related potential ITN items in the last 24 hours that are currently having a tough time here. Compare to some old white guy not from the USA who just died. – H T  D  03:49, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * funny, cause I almost posted this. Can someone give a source that doesn't treat this as regional within Mexico?  If so, I might actually support it. μηδείς (talk) 03:58, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * This New York Daily News source calls her one of the biggest stars in spanish language television, and a "icon" to United States female Hispanics, and that a show in ABC was in the makings because of it. This Billboard source called her the "queen of Banda music" and "top-selling regional Mexican female star of her generation" among other achievements,  Here's one from the Houston Chronicle that called her one of Latin music biggest stars, and likely going to be "immortalized" as a legend.  Here's some celebrities reactions to her death from several of the biggest names in Latin music including Gloria Estefan, Jennifer Lopez and others BBC and so forth, it's still a developing story but this seems like the level of coverage typical from a sudden death of a major celebrity, especially from a Spanish language performer and makes me support a full blurb even more, considering the coverage it will probably get within the next few days. Secret account 04:47, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose blurb, weak oppose recent death listing - Among other concerns, she does not appear to meet any of the death criteria, which to the best of my knowledge hasn't been deprecated, even for death ticker nominations. On second thought, if she is as well-known in Mexico as Secret says she is, that would probably be just enough to qualify. --Bongwarrior (talk) 04:02, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Who?? --  Ohconfucius  ping / poke 04:12, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support with blurb per nominator. -  Eugεn  S¡m¡on  (14) ®  08:37, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support ticker, oppose blurb Not a widely known person. Brandmeistertalk  09:56, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Leaning towards blurb. The likes of Michael Jackson, Ayrton Senna and Steve Jobs aside, I tend to base my decision on blurb vs ticker on how interesting the blurb would be – you have to be notable to reach either. I don't know enough about this woman to give an opinion on her significance. But if she does meet the bar, the circumstances of her death lend themselves well to a full blurb. —WFC— FL wishlist 10:33, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose what about this is ITN worthy? If her impact is regional, she can have a place on the Spanish frontpage.  The method of death cannot be noteworthy, because famous people die quite frequently in air disasters.  I would also dispute the "icon" characterization, when it has to be so highly qualified when it is made. 130.188.8.27 (talk) 10:57, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support with (alt) blurb - The story here is the actual plane crash, meaning that, at present, it is her sudden death rather than preceding life that is the main story. The alt blurb leads with the crash, rather than being a standard "X dies at age Y" blurb. LukeSurlt c 11:47, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Response if the plane crash is the story, it should have it's own article. --IP98 (talk) 14:26, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Ticker Admins should note that may of the oppose votes above are opposing a full blurb--not a ticker listing which makes sense given the low status of the artist but high notability of the death. μηδείς (talk) 21:29, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I think mainly because her popularity is in Spanish speaking countries, and not English, again some of the sources above shows how huge she was in Latin America, and with United States Hispanics. I wonder how ITN will react with if another major Spanish superstar dies i.e Julio Iglesias Secret account 22:00, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment The Spanish Wikipedia has listed Rivera on their (gigantic) main page deaths section. --IP98 (talk) 21:49, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support ticker, and Support full blurb if consensus is reached.--Johnsemlak (talk) 22:32, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support ticker. 15 million albums sold and died in a plane crash is sufficiently notable in my view. I'm neutral when it comes to the blurb, but I'd prefer the alt one. Eric Leb 01 (Page &#124; Talk)  01:15, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posted to ticker. -- Jayron  32  03:47, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Messi association football record
Newslink? Formerip (talk) 20:53, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Added Reuters source to article. —Bloom6132 (talk) 20:56, 9 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose I'm not sure of the encyclopaedic merit of this record. Surely the most logical way to delineate such football records is per season? Plus, the source doesn't define in which competitions the record is restricted to. There are so many football leagues across the world, and lower-tier games generally have more goals. I'm sure a statistician somewhere could bring out a person who's technically scored more, though against much weaker defences. LukeSurlt c 21:04, 9 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support. I'm not an expert on soccer but this seems to be a noteworthy achievement. 331dot (talk) 21:05, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 *  Oppose  --IP98 (talk) 21:40, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Neutral Still think the article is a mess, the period arbitrary, and the criteria for inclusion in the tally unclear, but it seems like this sport is so random that the last two objections may never be fully satisfied. --IP98 (talk) 22:16, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Because a calendar year spans two different seasons, and sports events generally follow a season. This strikes me as a curious bit of trivia. Understand that FCB is a top tier association team. So is Fußball-Bundesliga, so I have to assume the "record" is at the top tier.--IP98 (talk) 21:40, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * A "season" is difficult to measure, since all domestic football leagues and cups end at different times. A calendar year provides a definite start and end date. —Bloom6132 (talk) 21:54, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * But a player doesn't change leagues mid-season right? So if Gerrard were to score 89 in a premiere league season, that's just as easy to measure, even if the start and end dates are different. --IP98 (talk) 22:02, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Wrong, players change leagues mid-season all the time. A third-division scorer could move to the first division and his goals would count in both leagues towards his final total for the season.  The Rambling Man (talk) 22:05, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Looking at what seems to be the primary stats page on Wiki in relation to this, European association football club records, it does seem that the "per season" record is given primary position (Messi is also #1 by the way), whilst the per calendar year record is a minor addition, the list containing only Messi and Müller. In Europe, where all the top association football leagues exist, the "season" is actually fairly well defined - I think it's even in UEFA statute. --LukeSurlt c 22:18, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Because the article is a mess, with this bit buried at the bottom of the 2012-2013 season section. --IP98 (talk) 21:40, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The article itself is rated GA. Furthermore, this event took place during the '12–13 season, so I don't see why a separate section is needed for it.  Only a few sentences are necessary. —Bloom6132 (talk) 21:54, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * GA was in 2009, no review since. The bit about the record could at least be broken out into a paragraph. A drive by main page reader is going to struggle to find the news bit in that article. --IP98 (talk) 22:02, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * With additional games to be played this year, his goal count may continue to rise, so do we post him breaking his own record again and again? --IP98 (talk) 21:43, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * No. What counts is him breaking the record (this occasion).  Any subsequent occasion is counted as him extending (not breaking) his record. —Bloom6132 (talk) 21:54, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I concede your point here. --IP98 (talk) 22:02, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support We post track-and-field records via ITN/R when significant records are broken after a significant time period. Why is this any different? --  Anc516  (Talk ▪ Contribs) 21:46, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Response because a track and field record is one person one time against the clock. This is an accumulation over an arbitrary period of time. Goals in a game, in a month, in a season, in a year, in a career, while with one team, while in one league, while under the light of the full moon, it can go on forever. --IP98 (talk) 22:07, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * So says you. Just wait until I nominate the 103m world record being broken. Formerip (talk) 22:10, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Both are crowning achievements with the same degree of difficulty. I still see no difference, whether it's one event, or an accumulation of events. --  Anc516  (Talk ▪ Contribs) 22:18, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * No: breaking world records is not at ITN/R. Kevin McE (talk) 00:58, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

– HonorTheKing (talk) 22:22, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Neutral. I think this should turn on how big a deal the media think it is, which is not yet clear. If they go big on it, then count me as a support. And yes, sure, if someone broke the record for the most of whatever it is that scores points in American Football, I'm sure it would already have been posted. All the same, I don't think we should just go by our own judgement in deciding how important a particular record is. Formerip (talk) 21:52, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Questions what's the context of these goals? Certainly professional, but including La Liga, Spanish Cup, Champions League etc etc?  What did the previous record include, i.e. are these comparisons like for like?  How many games did Muller play for his record vs Messi?  The Rambling Man (talk) 22:04, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * From what the BBC article states, both club and international goals are counted (since Mueller had 72 for Bayern Munich and 13 for Germany). Messi has 74 goals for Barcelona and 12 for Argentina in 66 games (I'm not sure how many games Mueller played).  Club goals definitely include domestic league, cup and Champions League.  I suppose they might include any other tournaments like the Super Cup or Club World Cup. —Bloom6132 (talk) 22:15, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Muller 85 goals in 60 games, while Messi 86 goals in 66 games (with 4 left until 2013).


 * Support A record has been broken and it doesn't involve an American, a Brit, or claims of racism from either side. With the current climate of this page being as it is, I'd put it on the front page on those characteristics alone doktorb wordsdeeds 22:13, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment Messi is one of the three candidates, and extremely hot favourite amongst them, to win the 2012 FIFA Ballon d'Or (World Player of the Year) award. It'll be awarded 7 January 2013. My guess is we'll probably post that, and that might be a better way of discussing his achievements than this slightly arbitrary record. LukeSurlt c 22:29, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It took 40 years to break Mueller's mark and is covered by a wide variety of news sources. Therefore, it's a historical achievement, not an arbitrary record. —Bloom6132 (talk) 22:57, 9 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose- When he broke the mark for a season, that made sense to post because the record was just as longstanding, but it seems arbitrary for a Gregorian year to be superimposed onto a sport that already has its own season. Posting him winning the Ballon d'Or in the future and having posted him breaking the season record in the past is enough.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 23:15, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Did we post the season record? That would be an important thing to consider. Formerip (talk) 00:01, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, the season record was posted back in May. —Bloom6132 (talk) 00:07, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, OK, thanks. I think we need to consider whether we are the official organ of Lionel Messi record-breaking or something with more breadth, in that case. However, it would be a new blurb in which no-one dies and no-one is either American or British, so I'm not going to oppose it. Formerip (talk) 00:14, 10 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support. Of a wider interest than the Olympic-set records we posted earlier this year; association football is one of the most popular sports globally. Muller's record has stood for forty years, so breaking it isn't something that's likely to happen again any time soon. GRAPPLE   X  23:49, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose I have never bought the idea that soccer/cricket records are somehow more notable than records of other sports just because of their popularity, but this seems to happen on ITN (Like Bloom posted above, we have alreayd posted Messi breaking a record this year). I don't see what makes this record notable in the slightest outside of the world's most famous soccer player breaking a record after playing a year of matches. There have been numerous records that have been broken in the past few years that ITN has opposed because they were just records, so why should a soccer record be any different? When he wins an award, I think that would be notable, but not this. -- Plasma Twa  2  00:33, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose Convoluted record that is not regularly found in lists, calendar year is not the standard unit for measuring football achievements. Akin to adding the percentage of votes a candidate gets in two successive elections: a record could be identified, and may be the highest ever, but of no meaning.  Kevin McE (talk) 00:58, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose on the basis that we posted him breaking the record for a season. —WFC— FL wishlist 07:37, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose in my corner of the world, this sport lacks both popular appeal and the gravitas of the Olympics that might offset that lack of appeal. Additionally, I don't think that the responses to IP86's objections are satisfactory. 130.188.8.27 (talk) 08:56, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * How are the responses to IP86's objections not satisfactory? His first point was completely repudiated by TRM as being completely wrong and he already stated that he "concede[s]" to my third response.  I'm guessing that the above discussion was the reason why he changed his vote from oppose to neutral. —Bloom6132 (talk) 09:06, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * On the first point, it is later noted that points-per-season is the dominant statistic used on the sport's wiki page, so I think it still stands. On the third point, I'm not convinced that the event of breaking the previous record should be posted instead of the total over the full course of the season/year/whatever.  For strict news sources, I would say that when the record is broken it should be noted (even if mid-season), but this is an encyclopedia and as such I think the new record is necessary to make the content encyclopedic instead of merely newsworthy (although I'm not sure that I would support it even then). 130.188.8.27 (talk) 10:10, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * False. Precedent here on WP has shown that breaking the record carries more weight.  Take a look when Federer broke Pete Sampras' record of 14.  Only in the July 2009 blurb does it mention the record.  His subsequent extensions of his record were not noted in January 2010 or July 2012; the only thing it noted was him winning the event. —Bloom6132 (talk) 10:23, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * And I don't think that is a good precedent. 130.188.8.27 (talk) 10:27, 10 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose. This wasn't considered an important record before Messi set it.  The Gerhard Müller page only mentioned the record after Messi overook him, not before.  The record wasn't widely regarded or known in Germany and Rafael Honigstein of the Guardian called it an 'artificial' record.--Johnsemlak (talk) 22:35, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose no relevance outside of the sport. We don't post each record being set in sport of there wouldn't be room for anything else; I seem to recall we nixed various baseball feats such as perfect games/triple plays, and what have you. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 02:40, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted] Romanian election

 * Should be placed once results are in the article. 331dot (talk) 21:09, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support, it is obviously significant.Egeymi (talk) 21:27, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment. The significance is not at issue, the quality of the article and the blurb is. 331dot (talk) 21:55, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Reply to comment, the real issue here is the significance of an event. The points you referred to (article and blurb) can be modified and improved.Egeymi (talk) 09:22, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I've been told in the past that events listed on ITN/R (national elections) are already deemed significant enough to appear on ITN; posting here is merely to evaluate the quality of the article and blurb, not the significance of the event. 331dot (talk) 11:51, 10 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support bold article seems thorough. Maintenance tags on the talk page seem outdated (for example, there's no way that anyone would call this artciel a stub). 130.188.8.27 (talk) 08:46, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support once results tables have been filled out with the numbers. Is there an English language source where this data can be found, or can anyone translate a Romanian source? Looking at BBC news it says four-fifths of votes have been counted as of about an hour ago. --LukeSurlt c 13:45, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support once the official numbers are out as the article is in a good shape. Nergaal (talk) 15:14, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose- How could this be in good shape? I can't find a single sentence on the results, and if there are any, its not in the results section.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 15:19, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Huh? Results before the official numbers? Nergaal (talk) 17:21, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Current count is 99.5% of the vote. Results, and the reactions to them, can be determined prior to the final 100% numbers. LukeSurlt c 18:07, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The results are out and the lead has been expanded. Nergaal (talk) 17:47, 11 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Posted.  Spencer T♦ C 00:09, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Jerry Brown (Recent Deaths)

 * Oppose - He's not even a notable football player. --Bongwarrior (talk) 17:21, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The fact that he wasn't a famous football player doesn't change the fact that the death was notable. Ryan Vesey 17:25, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Not really. This isn't an uncommon occurrence - he is the third active NFL player to die this year. --Bongwarrior (talk) 17:21, 9 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose. The pinnacle of his career seems to have been making the practice squad for the Dallas Cowboys. He's just not what you would consider a leader in his field, AFAICT. And car crashes are obviously not an unusual or notable way of slipping this mortal coil. Formerip (talk) 17:35, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose Not even remotely notable on a world-wide scale. I doubt most Americans would know who is was.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 17:37, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Neutral It's a routine traffic accident, though we seem to post plenty of those... --IP98 (talk) 17:39, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, if the nominator were to present instead the blurb "One person is killed and up to one is injured as a car hits a tree in Texas", then it should be a shoo-in. Formerip (talk) 17:43, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Not quite. s/Texas/China/g first :) --IP98 (talk) 19:33, 9 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose. Not a notable football player; not an unusual occurrence; not noteworthy on a worldwide scale. I'm not aware of routine traffic accidents being posted on ITN. 331dot (talk) 17:45, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - not for itn.--BabbaQ (talk) 18:20, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose, his NFL career had just started, sadly. Abductive  (reasoning) 19:30, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose If we don't post Jovan Belcher, we're not posting this player. I thought this nom was for Jerry Brown when I saw the heading, and that made my heart sink a little. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:36, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I thought that as well at first; maybe the header should be reworded with "American football" or what have you. 331dot (talk) 21:48, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * What??? Arnie's just a regular guy now? Formerip (talk) 01:18, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That there are that many Jerry Browns that he doesn't even stand out among those with his own name is perhaps indicative of his unsuitability. After all, there are lots of James Browns and Michael Jacksons too but it's usually obvious which one is being referred to. --86.40.106.60 (talk) 00:28, 10 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose I think this isn't quite what Recent Deaths is for. RD isn't a lower bar for death stories, Recent Deaths is for the deaths of notable persons, for whom it is their preceding lives makes their, usually normal, deaths noteworthy. In this case it is the actual story of the death and circumstances around this that is 'in the news' - placing on the ticker, with just the name, would exclude necessary details regarding the news story. Therefore it would need to be a full post, or none at all. I don't think this meets the criteria for a full post either. --LukeSurlt c 20:52, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose Belcher death was notable considering the circumstances, Brown death, while sad wasn't notable, people unfortunately die from DUI crashes everyday. Secret account 23:19, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted to ticker] Death of Sir Patrick Moore

 * Support Very well known in his field. The article is a Good Article too.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 14:35, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment I'm worried the work that led to Recent deaths is slowly being reversed with deaths such as this one and Brubeck. This is not too far above the level of notability of a death that would have been posted in September. The addition of Recent deaths should have raised that bar much higher. --  tariq abjotu  14:42, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for Recent Deaths and as much support as I can muster for a celebrity death (which is not all that much in general) for full blurb .EdwardLane (talk) 14:49, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support as RD only - A well-known television personality on British screens at least, notable for very long duration of career. A leading figure in the field of amateur astronomy - however probabl;y not at the cutting edge of progressing the academic side of the science. Possibly may be a but UK-centric though. LukeSurlt c 14:56, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Not recently, admittedly, but he has had a long career. In his prime he was an expert in Lunar astronomy; his work was used as part of several American and Russian lunar missions, his maps were even used for the Apollo missions. He's notable as an amateur astronomer because he never went to university and built his own telescopes, that doesn't mean he wasn't respected in his field.--<font face="Century Gothic" size="3">23230  <font face="Century Gothic">talk 15:47, 9 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support Presenter of the longest-running programme with the same presenter in television history. Highly notable for that alone. Leaky  Caldron  15:02, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for full post Per the Dave Brubeck precedent this should definitely get the full honours. Unless it is limited to Americans? It doesn't make sense to give Dave Brubeck such a prominent position and have Moore and Niemeyer hidden underneath. They arguably did more for astronomy and architecture than Brubeck did for music - certainly not less. Actually Sir Patrick is a prominent figure in both astronomy and television. Sir Patrick was also two years younger than Brubeck so the usual "too old" stuff can't really apply either. --86.40.106.60 (talk) 15:04, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Just like what I said years ago, the ITN ultimately boils down to competition between the Americans and the British (and their continental friends) to the detriment of other countries. Since there's the Super Bowl, we'd have to get a European equivalent. They put up Brubeck so they should put up this guy... and he's even a knight! And so on. Somewhere, Niemeyer is pissed. – H  T  D  15:09, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think the Brubeck blurb or Niemeyer non-blurb postings are the best examples to use as precedent, both have been fairly controversial. If you're looking for precedents, it's best to have a longer perspective than the past week, else it's possible you'll be picking out outliers. Also remember that article quality is a factor in all these discussions, not just the statuses of the individuals involved. LukeSurlt c 15:46, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * We used to have someone do the archiving so we can have a headcount on these things. But apparently people would rather write updates than do that. Ditto on article quality, though. – H T  D  15:50, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Well if that is a factor then it's already been pointed out that Patrick Moore is a good article, one of only four in the "astronomers" category (along with Neil Armstrong and two other deceased astronomers).--<font face="Century Gothic" size="3">23230  <font face="Century Gothic">talk 15:55, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Two wrongs don't make a right. You've stomped and kicked and cried about your perceived bias, but you cant "fix" whatever wrong you see by doing another. --IP98 (talk) 17:35, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * On the article quality question-one of the more intelligent issues raised above-if Patrick Moore is a good article and Dave Brubeck isn't, how can article quality be preventing Moore from being promoted? Bruckbeck also has less sources than Niemeyer. No one seems able to answer the overall problem with the way deaths are portrayed. At the moment Wikipedia is giving the death of Brubeck prominent coverage (he even had his picture earlier) while treating Moore and Niemeyer as afterthoughts. What is the reason for this? The question about Americans may be because Bruckbeck is very prominently displayed as an "American jazz pianist"? Whereas Moore was English and Niemeyer was Brazilian. Trying to find any difference or reason for them being treated differently is proving very difficult. --86.40.106.60 (talk) 18:30, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Ticker only. A somewhat iconic broadcaster, but not really a towering figure in terms of British cultural life. Formerip (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support full blurb. The man was the most recognisable face in his field for half a century. GRAPPLE   X  16:12, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * In Britain. I for one have never ever seen or heard of this person. Abductive  (reasoning) 19:00, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm most certainly not from Britain and I can't recall ever not knowing of him. Try being a little less insular. GRAPPLE   X  23:51, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Doesn't change the validity of the argument that he is not important enough. Abductive  (reasoning) 07:33, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Your point revolved around him being famous only in one place, which clearly isn't true. How is it then still valid? GRAPPLE   X  13:40, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support full blurb. As well as the work he himself did, which is considerable, he has probably contributed (albeit indirectly) more to astronomy in the last 40 years or so than one other person. It is totally normal for any professional astronomer talking about Moore to say that he was their inspiration to become interested in astronomy in the first place.  When appearing on The Sky at Night professional astronomers, even of the highest rank, will genuinely express their pleasure at being there and, particularly when it is their first appearance, will say how honoured they feel to be there. FerdinandFrog (talk) 16:58, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support, but RD only: he was an iconic presenter and amaetur astronomer, but doesn't warrant a full blurb. He was not, for instance, famous in connection to any notable event. -- Hazhk Talk to me 16:59, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Neither were Dave Brubeck, Whitney Houston, Michael Jackson or any of the other musicians routinely full blurbed. --86.40.106.60 (talk) 18:46, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Ticker Only (and weak even then) I don't see any serious arguments here as to why this should have a full blurb other than 'those evil Americans'. (I am also unaware of who has opposed Niemeyer for a full blurb as not American, or of any effort by those making racist anti-American claims here to get Niemeyer upgraded.  It seems more a convenient reason for spouting bigoted nonsense than a real concern.) μηδείς (talk) 17:14, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Who claimed Wikipedia for Americans? And why is any objection whatsoever to the prominent display of American content regarded as anti-American racism and "bigoted nonsense"? It would be just the same if any other part of the world was given such a free ride. It just happens to be America. According to its own definition of itself Wikipedia is "written collaboratively by volunteers around the world" and its home page right now has P. B. S. Pinchback, a Tennessee oil explosion, William P. Rogers (with picture), Supernatural (season 2), Ace Books, 20th Arizona Territorial Legislature and Cocolobo Cay Club with its four presidents (president of what? America, naturally, or so the rest of the world must assume) so there's no danger of it being ignored or forgotten very quickly. --86.40.106.60 (talk) 18:46, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Small mercies: Our Dave Brubeck blurb no longer credits him with the "first platinum jazz album". I'm sure everyone spotted immediately that Kind Of Blue was released six months earlier and went platinum in Australia. Formerip (talk) 20:05, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * So there's a further example of the prevailing bias-accidental, intentional or otherwise-that the world = the United States. And when anyone comments on this they are insulted and called racist and bigoted. How much of Brubeck's perceived importance lay on the false assumption that he had the "first platinum jazz album"? When Wikipedia acts so casually and so unprofessionally, as if no other music charts exist outside the U.S., as if "presidents" automatically refers to U.S. politicians, and other sloppiness, on the website's most viewed page, can the rest of the world be blamed for objecting? --86.40.106.60 (talk) 20:36, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I was making a slightly jokey post. Kind Of Blue did go platinum in Australia, but I don't know how long that took, so maybe Brubeck in the US was first after all. On the other hand, I doubt the sources that give us the info about Brubeck have even checked. Formerip (talk) 20:50, 9 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I would suggest very strongly that you withdraw that and refrain from using phrases like "anti-American racists" again, if you wish to continue contributing on this page. Black Kite (talk) 19:02, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * If we constantly have statements made about Americans in general based on nothing other than their common nationality that claim they are doing something nefarious as a group it's no different from saying the Jews control the media or immigrants are ruining the country. That's racism, and it's highly offensive.  I have routinely opposed non-notable nominations that have something American related to them and have frequently supported non-American nominations (see, for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:In_the_news/Candidates#.5BPosted.5D_Supertyphoon_Bopha_strikes_Phillipines) yet I have to be subject to accusations of bad faith merely because I live in the dread USA? i've made my comment less potentially personal, but I'd really like to see some concern taken here for these constant and unjustified accusations. μηδείς (talk) 19:25, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Americans are more likely to support nominations that they are familiar with and oppose nominations that "they've never heard of" (see above) and the same goes for Europeans. That doesn't, however, mean they're racist, which is the problematic word here.  There may be an issue given that American editors are the majority and therefore more likely to prevail on such issues, but it is down to editors to investigate such nominations, rather than come up with "I've never heard of them, so oppose".  Such "votes" should be disregarded at every turn. FWIW, I'm European, and I think that Moore should only be on RD.  Very, very, famous here, but if we went with every death that was very famous in one particular country, we'd have ITN bigger than the main page. Black Kite (talk) 19:36, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * We have individual editors, not collective votes by nationality. I don't think continuing an OR discussion of what "Americans" are likely to do here is useful. μηδείς (talk) 19:52, 9 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support RD only not the most notable astronomer, not the most notable tv presenter. Maybe a prominent TV astronomy presenter, but that's too narrow a field for a full blurb. Good update. --IP98 (talk) 17:33, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Out of curiosity what would you define as a notable TV presenter? Considering this fellow presented the same programme for 55 years and holds the world record. Who do you rank ahead of him? --86.40.106.60 (talk) 18:55, 9 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Posted under recent deaths. --Bongwarrior (talk) 17:56, 9 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support full post - the longest-serving television host of a single television show in history. Sure, not in the US, but that's entirely irrelevant.  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:10, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I think George Vandeman may be the US equivalent. He died pre-WP, but I don't think we would have posted him either. Formerip (talk) 20:25, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * "The sky at night" is a monthly episode, with 705 in 55 years on the air. Sorry, but that borders on hobby.... --IP98 (talk) 20:28, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, find me an American who has appeared on single show for 55 years, "hobby" or not... No need to be "sorry", I get it.   Of course, if a lead actor in Lost which seemed to go on for 55 years died, 12 or 14 episodes a year, posting their death here wouldn't be questioned.   The Rambling Man (talk) 20:38, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Who said anything about an American being required? Except for the tired raging of the IP 86.40.106.60... FWIW I would challenge a random actor from Lost. --IP98 (talk) 20:48, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I mean, really, man, have the Yanks got you flustered? Drop the American comparisons and give us some good reasons why he should be upgraded on his own merits.  Was his a nightly hour-long show?  Was it award-winning?  How many hours was he on the air over his career?  Did he have references in the culture?  Did Monty Python and Cooke and Moore lampoon him like they did the Attenboroughs?  Give us anything to work on other than America-envy.  I'm sure you'll get plenty of support if you can pose some good arguments in favor of it. μηδείς (talk) 20:55, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, are you addressing me? As I said below, someone on television in the same show for 55 years is notable. Yanks don't have me flustered, just frustrated.  If someone who had appeared regularly on the same US television show every season for 55 years died, I'd fully expect there to be a ITN/C for it.  Yet this is laughed out of court because the Yanks probably aren't even aware of his notability.  Never mind. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:51, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I very much doubt you'd oppose an actor who had appeared in 55 consecutive seasons of a show. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:53, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * If the show did 12 episodes in a 12 month season, I would support that individual for the RD ticker. Why are you so upset? --IP98 (talk) 21:48, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * 700+ shows in 55 years. I'm not upset.  Read below.  Get a grip. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:09, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * People seem to be focusing too much on the number of episodes rather than the number of years, which is what is important. The periodicity of the episodes is part of the type of program: having a daily show about astronomy would make as much sense as having a sit-com with one episode a month. In fiction and other shows the number of episodes is relevant since that is what governs plots, story-lines, characters etc... For a factual, scientific program like The Sky at Night the number of years it has been broadcasting is much more notable - covering all major missions and advancements in the field for over 50 years. And this is all regardless of the actual point here, which is that Patrick Moore holds the record is for the longest-running programme with the same presenter, which is regardless of number of episodes. He would hold that record whether the program had 10,000 episodes or 200 - its notable for the length of time. I hope that makes sense--<font face="Century Gothic" size="3">23230  <font face="Century Gothic">talk 22:56, 9 December 2012 (UTC).
 * Why am I mentioned (and again personally insulted) here? Is it to invite a comment? Does 98 think I have some sort of control over all the supporters from across the world and am directing them to say what they say as well? I don't know where the "raging" tone comes from. Unless everyone who makes the slightest objection to something is classed in that way I am no more into "tired raging" than anyone. The man has broken television records and influenced generations of astronomers. --86.40.106.60 (talk) 21:03, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Please AGF on us Americans. I'm sick of reading people bash the people of my country on this page because of perceived biases that I don't believe are based on any fact. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:10, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Who is bashing the people of your country? This has nothing to do with the people of your country or the people of any country. The evidence of the "perceived biases" is not hidden. There is an essay. There is even a WikiProject. It is not some silly fabrication designed to annoy Americans. It is not racist or bigoted to mention this. Those who mention it are not all raging with hatred. When an American jazz musician is fully blurbed over such comments as "Strong support. Certainly." (that is what one of them actually says), while insurmountable difficulties are encountered by a Brazilian architect and an English astronomer/television personality who have both made significant impacts in their specialist areas of expertise (and whose articles are in better condition than Brubeck's) then the question must be asked. --86.40.106.60 (talk) 23:57, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That's stupid. I'm not going to mince words. It's just stupid. This one particular guy was posted as a full blurb, and so it must indicate an American bias. Pure stupidity. Brubeck was also a musician. But no one has claimed people are biased toward musicians. There are a lot of things that distinguishes him from Moore. But, no, it must be because he was American. ITN posts plenty of Britain-related stories (as it posts a good number of U.S.-related stories), plenty of stories that aren't of great interest to Americans. Rarely do those items get lambasted as being one step closer to a Britapedia, at least not with this kind of fervor. So, of all places to go on a crusade against systematic bias, a Britain-related nomination is not one of them. --  tariq abjotu  01:22, 10 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment I do hate that these things end up as comparisons between other people and accusations of pro-/anti- American/British bias. As the nominator, I'll do my best to describe why Sir Patrick Moore is deserving of a proper blurb on the main page. He was notable for two things - as an amateur astronomer and as a television (specifically science) presenter, I strongly believe he is very notable for both positions. For the former, despite not attending university and building his own telescopes he produced an impressive amount of well-regarded astronomical literature, including as I have mentioned maps of the moon used by both US and USSR lunar missions, including Apollo. He was well enough regarded in his field that he was elected as a member of the International Astronomical Union, the only amateur astronomer to ever be given that honour. He created the widely-used Caldwell catalogue (named after him, his full name was Caldwell-Moore) and has an asteroid named after him (and 57424 Caelumnoctu named after the show). He is probably the best known astronomer in the United Kingdom, and his show is quoted by many to be what inspired them to take up astronomy - in fact I wouldn't hesitate to say that a vast majority of British astronomers and physicists watched his show. Neatly fitting into the second section, he is as mentioned the record holder for the longest single presenter on any television show. Some claim that it being on a monthly basis detracts from this, but I believe it is still notable even because of this. The shows were broadcast from his own home and he was still dping them directly up to his death at age 89 - in fact he had already recorded next month's show that has yet to be broadcast. I'm not sure how many episodes exactly he recorded but the 700th show was in 2011. According to List of longest-running UK television series it is the longest running non-news show in British history and quite probably the longest running science-focused show anywhere. If the show is now ended I would say that was notable in itself. I would also support based on his position in British culture, in response to comments above he was parodied by Ronnie Barker and Jon Culshaw (in direct response to μηδείς's comments about Attenborough) and played himself on comedy shows with The Goodies, Morecambe and Wise and Kenneth Horne. His article lists his appearances in popular culture - including hosting GamesMaster and featuring in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy and a more recent episode of Doctor Who. If anyone wants more information his death is still featured at the top of the BBC News web page, including many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many articles and features on him. Does any of that give enough reason to support? --<font face="Century Gothic" size="3">23230  <font face="Century Gothic">talk 22:08, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, for the ticker. Abductive  (reasoning) 00:53, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Abductive, but your post was very short. Would you mind posting a giant wall of text so I can take the time to read it and consider? Formerip (talk) 01:12, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That is very unfair, FormerIP, and not the kind of comment we need at the ebst of times. Martin23230 has written a fair and fine rational and dismissing it is uncivil and unjust. As it happens, I find this whole debate unedifying. We perhaps need to stop comparing our dicks like this. doktorb wordsdeeds 03:36, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Please, I'm trying to be considerate and put across my argument as nominator to try and explain how important someone was to people (often) from a different country, who aren’t members of his field and most of the time who have never heard of him - it's not an easy task. As a frequent reader of the page but first-time nominator I've been trying to avoid bias/comparison/personal attacks but they just keep coming - I can tell you once this is over I won't be returning or nominating anything again.--<font face="Century Gothic" size="3">23230  <font face="Century Gothic">talk 10:32, 10 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Dear 23230, can you give a link to his appearance on Doctor Who, The Goodies, or Gamesmaster? Because, if you can, I would have to assume any opposition to upgrading the gentleman was in bad faith. μηδείς (talk) 04:13, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Go to about 0520 on this video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVUJ7ePLgWo doktorb wordsdeeds 04:17, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Gladly. For Doctor Who, he played himself in the 2011 episode The Eleventh Hour IMDB (I belive this is the scene, he was also mentioned in an earlier episode . For The Goodies, he appeared a total of 6 times according to this fan site, this covers many of them. For GamesMaster he was the titular "GamesMaster" and so I believe appeared in every episode of its 7 series over 6 years. here is a compilation of the show’s opening credits, that feature him in character, as well of course as the link given above by Doktorbuk. He has a pretty comprehensive IMDB page which details the apparently 67 different shows in which he either played himself or appeared (everything from Big Brother to Red Dwarf to Celebrity Squares).--<font face="Century Gothic" size="3">23230  <font face="Century Gothic">talk 10:32, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Ticker Only. Brubeck was a clear mistake. Let's not repeat it. Only deaths which get top headlines in multiple countries should get their own blurbs. Kaldari (talk) 18:51, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Manny Pacquiao vs. Juan Manuel Márquez IV

 * Comment. It was a non-title fight. The title fight was a few months when Timothy Bradley defeated Pacquiao. ComputerJA (talk) 08:30, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * And that's why I shouldn't use a Wikipedia article for a reference. I'll change the blurb.    Hot Stop     (Talk)   09:15, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it probably got changed in the flurry of edits after Márquez knocked Pac-Man out. ComputerJA (talk) 10:25, 9 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support. Although this was not a title bout, I think the fight/result will attract a lot of readers. I also support the nomination for the following reasons: (1) Pacquiao had not been knocked out since 1999; (2) the previous fight between these two guys was highly contested; and (3) it's good to see a new kind of blurb on ITN. ComputerJA (talk) 10:44, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose Non-title fight, no evident reason for non-fans as to why this is any more noteworthy than any other bout.  Pacquiao has been featured five times on ITN since March 2009: we have more than done justice to his fans, and should not let ITN turn in to the Pacquiao Bulletin.  Kevin McE (talk) 11:31, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose though much anticipated by boxing fans, it's not a title bout, so the only thing establishing it's notability is that anticipation. I know we've posted Pacquiao fights in the past (his Talk page doesn't explain what fights, just that it was on ITN), maybe that was a mistake. The NHL All-star game, the Daytona 500, the NCAA championship, and various European Football contests have all been sour-faced because they weren't the "top contest" in their sport. I know fans were excited, but ultimately this is no different from The Big 4 Live from Sofia, Bulgaria, which would never fly. --IP98 (talk) 11:32, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose as per above. Non-title fight means the encyclopaedic relevance is low. LukeSurlt c 11:38, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * BBC World News certainly found it notable enough for their sports bulletin (along with today's Manchester Derby), even saying there was a title belt involved (I think it was the WBO light welterweight belt) but I dunno if that's correct or if we should follow the BBC or news sources across the Atlantic... and the Pacific. – H T  D  14:41, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I bet they mentioned England beating India in the Third Test too, but that wont be notable to make the frontpage of WP either.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 15:29, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that and some supposed Bavarian derby involving Bayern. There'd be strong lobbying though if England break some record vs. India that they haven't done since the 1980s. But I don't think the rest of the stories in that sports bulletin would've been even considered for broadcast in networks across the Atlantic or the Pacific, though. And the BBC never mentions boxing unless there's a riot outside the ring. – H T  D  15:37, 9 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose And question if this should even be an article on WP; non-title fights are equivalent to routine games which aren't covered by separate articles. --M ASEM (t) 15:32, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * This fight has more coverage 20 world title unification bouts in flyweight could ever dream of. – H T  D  15:37, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Coverage is not equal to notability. --M ASEM (t) 15:41, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That's absurd. – H T  D  15:45, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Let me restate: The coverage by a large number of newspaper/sports recaps is not equivalent to the coverage needed to show notability as they are all primary sources. --M ASEM (t) 15:48, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That pretty much makes writing updates for ITN rather impossible. Don't have the time to think on how WP:NOR factors into all of this, though. – H T  D  15:57, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Highly notable and entertaining fight with widespread media coverage. Just because it's not for a title doesn't mean it's not significant. Doubt it will be posted, however, since it's become clear to me that ITN doesn't have much love to give for notable boxing events. --  Anc516  (Talk ▪ Contribs) 21:44, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I'm not seeing what is noteworthy about this fight, if it's not for a title.  If there is a rivalry here, I'm still not seeing the notability (in terms of ITN) as we don't post notable games in the rivalries of other sports(such as Boston Red Sox/NY Yankees games). 331dot (talk) 21:51, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose--if I understand rightly that no titles were at stake, then I oppose. The fight does appear to have garnered a great deal of interest, but really, I think with boxing we have to limit ourselves to title deciding fights.--Johnsemlak (talk) 22:45, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted] Qatar climate change conference

 * Support, event with international significance. But the Kyoto Protocol article needs some improvement to get rid of tags. Brandmeistertalk  18:13, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know if further improvement is needed, but I have just been over there and fixed the tag issue. Formerip (talk) 18:44, 8 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support as an event with international significance, though the Conference outcomes section needs to be improved with some decent prose. LukeSurlt c 19:37, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * oppose al jazeera propoganda apart, it doesnt matter with large scale po;lluters withdrawn from it already. Its just a face=-saving gessture. Thereve been mor e pertinent summits we have posted.Lihaas (talk) 19:46, 8 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose meaningless green press releases sleep furiously. μηδείς (talk) 20:35, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support - International significance, and article (I assume 'Kyoto Protocol' will be bolded) is in decent shape. Support for this blurb should have nothing to do with one's beliefs about global warming and everything to do with the continuation of a major treaty that is a bit on the weak side, considering those not participating... which is a part of the newsworthiness of the blurb and article. Jus  da  fax   21:53, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Well that's exactly it. It is like the mice agreeing to bell the cats with the cats abstaining.  Kind of silly for the sparrows to trumpet the fact of the vote. μηδείς (talk) 02:18, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * What the duck are you on about? —WFC— FL wishlist 02:24, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Not sure why you assume Kyoto Protocol - the article is minimally updated, whereas the conference is the thing in the news and that article is all update. Formerip (talk) 22:28, 8 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support- Since 2012 United Nations Climate Change Conference will be the bold article, that is the only one that needs to be updated, so problems with Kyoto Protocol are irrelevant. This is not only a major decision, but it is a rare example of a summit with a notable result, and most summits not on ITN/R, and even sometimes on ITN/R, are opposed because of a lack of known results. This is a perfect example of a summit that is not ITN/R that should be posted.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 23:48, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support per Bzweebl. Extending the Kyoto Protocol, rather than letting it expire, is a big deal. --IP98 (talk) 01:51, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support, although I think the wrong bit of the conference is being focussed on in the blurb. The extension of Kyoto is an easy headline. But a formal if vague international agreement that rich, polluting nations should compensate those worst hit by climate change and least able to do anything about it is arguably more newsworthy, given the involvement of non-Kyoto countries (with varying degrees of reluctance). I am personally skeptical about what this will actually do, but that should be left to the reader to determine. Both of the opposers above are proposing to take the decision out of the reader's hands based on personal and/or political opinion ("al jazeera propoganda", "face=-saving" and "meaningless green press releases", for instance). —WFC— FL wishlist 02:21, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Ready- Article is ready, oppose votes don't put forward any strong arguments, so there is consensus.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 02:33, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posting. --Tone 06:42, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Japan earthquake

 * Oppose - No casualties, minor damage. Also, I'm no seismologist, but I don't think this could possibly be an aftershock of an earthquake that occurred nearly two years ago. --Bongwarrior (talk) 00:03, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It appears that it is indeed possible, but I don't think any news outlets are calling this one an aftershock of the 2011 Tohoku earthquake. --Bongwarrior (talk) 00:14, 8 December 2012 (UTC)


 * support - quite a major earthquake so definitly for ITN in my opinion.--BabbaQ (talk) 00:16, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Little damage, no deaths so far.  It might be "major" in terms of strength, but its effects have been minimal.  We don't post every hurricane that comes along in ITN, such as those that go out to sea. 331dot (talk) 00:33, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose and thank god one can do so as unnotable. μηδείς (talk) 03:46, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose as per above. The merciful lack of widespread casualties also means the article is currently just a couple of sentences. My guess it is likely to remain under the size that we would consider acceptable to post anyway. --LukeSurlt c 17:23, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose- Fortunately damage was minimal.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 23:49, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted] Clashes in Egypt

 * Support, nothing much to add, just Egypt on the spotlight again. Keeeith (talk) 20:45, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Obvious support, since very very interesting event after the "revolution" just one year ago in the same country. Egeymi (talk) 21:08, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * oppose first the title is total pov and not WP convention. 2012 Egyptian protests or December 2012 Egyptian protests is more appropriate..Lihaas (talk) 21:55, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It was moved to 2012 Egyptian protests. NickSt (talk) 15:09, 7 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support pending update or better article links. And calling anti-morsi protests 'anti-morsi protests' is not POV.  Saying they are good or bad might be. μηδείς (talk) 02:42, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The event is definitely front-page ready, the article is definitely not. First, the lead is a mess.  It needs to be cleaned up a bit.  Second, the entire article is a proseline and needs to be converted to a proper narrative.  If we could get some work on this, I'd post it. -- Jayron  32  03:14, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Considering the deteriorating conditions in Egypt, don't you think a full sticky is better, like Syria. Secret account 07:13, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * ITN is not moving very fast, so I think we can afford to feature each update. support posting the item, btw. Thue (talk) 11:52, 7 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support the president fleed on Nov. 4, and I don't think things are going to settle down until something else major happens 80.220.125.41 (talk) 16:42, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Ready, the article is updated and everything seems to be OK.Egeymi (talk) 17:43, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support, this is big news for Egypt. -- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 19:27, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: Right now the current blurb wording seems a bit vague: "protests" about what? Can anyone think of a way to neutrally incorporate Morsi into the wording?  Spencer T♦ C 20:41, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree, the current blurb proposal puts more weight on injuries than the motive of protests. How about "At least 6 people are killed and hundreds injured during protests against president's power grab in Egypt" -- ELEKHHT 04:02, 8 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Post The current blurb is inordinately conservative, and support for this is definitive. I am not sure what the delay is caused by.  if something needs fixed please say so, otherwise this is over-ready. Medeis 03:49, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Please fix and post, I cannot understand why it is not post. Please fix or explain what should be done and post it, since it is much more significantly covered than the existing items posted.Egeymi (talk) 09:46, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posting. The blurb is accurate, though short. But that's why we have an article. --Tone 11:07, 8 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment. Why are we always obsessed by numbers of deaths and injuries. That's not really the story here. How about something like: Tens of thousand of Egyptians take part in demonstrations against President Mohammed Morsi? Formerip (talk) 11:21, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Would not mind having that kind of blurb, yes. --Tone 11:25, 8 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Blurb I'm all in favor of saying "Morsi makes concessions in face of deadly protests"; but giving the death stats is basic whowhatwherewhenwhyhow journalism, not "obsession". μηδείς (talk) 02:12, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * No, it's making a basic error as to what the "what" is. Formerip (talk) 11:55, 9 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment. Morsi has rescinded most of his decrees, according to NBC News.  I'm not sure if that warrants a separate blurb (with a separate discussion about it) or simply rewording this one(if we want to mention it at all). 331dot (talk) 02:12, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Already near enough to the top of the template, but looks very silly if we are posting previous chapter in story on Main Page: Egyptian president Mohamed Morsi annuls his declaration of expanded presidential powers and withdraws a proposed new constitution after public protests. Kevin McE (talk) 09:55, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That wouldn't even fit in a tweet and I'm pretty sure he hasn't withdrawn the draft constitution, so maybe we could miss that bit out. Formerip (talk) 11:55, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * So where is your proposal? Or are you just going to let the world think that Wikipedia hasn't noticed major changes in the story?  Kevin McE (talk) 13:00, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Er...
 * My proposal is to miss that bit out. If you need an example of what that would look like: Egyptian president Mohamed Morsi annuls his declaration of expanded presidential powers after public protests.
 * In addition maybe expanded presidential powers --> absolute power. Formerip (talk) 13:06, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Buddhists plead with UN to prevent mining at Mes Aynak

 * Support as soon as article is updated. I've also added an altblurb. 80.220.125.41 (talk) 09:28, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment. I'm wondering if we should wait until an actual decision is made to mine (or not mine). 331dot (talk) 12:06, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The decision has been made to mine. Merigar (talk) 16:57, 6 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose I wouldn't have thought the UN would actually have any jurisdiction in this matter? Looks like the reason for the appeal is as a publicity exercise to the wider world. It would be the actual destruction of the site that would be potentially an ITN item. LukeSurlt c 12:26, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Thats not the point. The point is that Buddhists are trying to get the UN's attention.  Merigar (talk) 16:57, 6 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment. This source is dated Nov 13, 2012, almost month ago. Where can we get the most recent news? NickSt (talk) 16:34, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Not to mention its about myanmar...do lankan buddhists and stenven seagal/richard gere thin that? amongt othersLihaas (talk) 21:54, 6 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I would support this once it was destroyed(unfortunately) but I oppose it now; the UN has very little influence in this matter. Many groups appeal to the UN for attention so I don't think that in and of itself merits inclusion at this time. 331dot (talk) 16:27, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted] Possible oldest known dinosaur announced

 * Oppose- "Possibly" isn't good enough for ITN usually.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 03:35, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Looking at the sources, it's not so much it might not be an accurate finding but just that something might not have been discovered yet (and may never be). This is essentially the setting of a world record that may never be broken ever, but we don't know that it will or won't. GRAPPLE   X  03:38, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Understood. Changing to neutral.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 05:32, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Encyclopedic content, and a fresh change from the human interest/international politic flavor that ITN has had lately. 80.220.125.41 (talk) 16:35, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support: if the word "possible" seems problematic, it may be reformulated as "the oldest dinosaur discovered so far", or something like that. Cambalachero (talk) 19:30, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * To clarify things, Nyasasaurus is a "possible" dinosaur because the paleontologists who described it can't say with absolute certainty whether it lies within the dinosaur group or just outside it. But even if it was just outside the group, it would still be a good representative of the theoretical first dinosaur (which, as Grapple X has already said, will probably never be discovered). Smokeybjb (talk) 22:45, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Meh Dinosaur = cool, but the claim is vague and more a matter of committee decisions. By itself Nyasasaurus is only at 1500 hits trending downward from 1800 at its peak yesterday.  Count this as an unopposed vote. μηδείς (talk) 20:48, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. A significant scientific finding. 331dot (talk) 14:15, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support - significant. for itn.--BabbaQ (talk) 15:43, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * comme'nt only 1 stence updat e"in 2012". with more its ready to post.Lihaas (talk) 19:51, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I see some more update and, as dinosaur stories are ITN candies, posting. --Tone 10:00, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted] Recent death: Oscar Niemeyer

 * Support posting a blurb Oscar Niemeyer is by far the most important person than any other whose death has been proposed after the introduction of the recent deaths layer and deserves place with a full blurb on the main page. He is often cited, along with Ludwig Mies van der Rohe and Le Corbusier, as one of the most influential and prolific architects of the modern architecture, and his main works include most of the administrative and cultural buildings in Brasilia and the United Nations headquarters in NYC. It's important to note that he remained active until his death and was symbolically referred to as the world's oldest architect.-Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 00:23, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Could we have our attention drawn to something more concrete (pardon me) in terms of his status? The above quote may be perfectly fair, but who said it? I'm not much of an architecture buff, but is he really, really up there with Mies vd Roe and Le Corbusier? Or just maybe arguably?
 * Also, can we decide collectively not to pick up the habit of putting "RECENT DEATH" in caps. It makes me jump a little. Or alternatively, we could go the whole hog and add three exclamation marks. Formerip (talk) 00:33, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I changed that per WP:SHOUT. -- ELEKHHT 01:09, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Response to Formerip: There are plenty of articles and works that admirably mention his name among the greatest of the modern architecture. One of the lists even tops his name as one of the 12 architects that changed the world . A book titled Oscar Niemeyer: A legend of modern architecture was published several years ago . Furthermore, some media portals announcing his death hail him as 'patriarch of modern architecture' .--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 01:29, 6 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support He was one of the most outstanding figures of 20th century architecture, and defining for Brazil. Not on the same par with Mies or Corbu, but known worldwide and highly influential in Latin America. He was active until the end of his life. The Oscar Niemeyer International Cultural Centre has been inaugurated last year. Is one of those rare opportunities to highlight culture related articles in the ITN. -- ELEKHHT 01:25, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment The blurb should include something like: Brazilian architect Oscar Niemeyer, famous for designing Brasilia and the United Nations headquarters, dies at the age of 104.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 01:33, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Should be more accurate though as he designed the buildings but was not the exclusive planner of Brasilia, neither was he the only architect of the UN. -- ELEKHHT 01:48, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It's no problem for me to use a simple blurb, such like: Brazilian architect Oscar Niemeyer dies at the age of 104.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 02:01, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for ticker only. Claims that he was the equal of Ludwig Mies van der Rohe and Le Corbusier are false. Abductive  (reasoning) 02:40, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Blurbworthy? but not worth the effort to Update? Update?  Update?  A little more effort will go a lot further than so much argument. μηδείς (talk) 02:54, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support blurb. One of the leading figures in both modern architecture and Brazilian history. Article is in relatively good shape, "personal life" section could do with a bit more clarity and sourcing. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> IgnorantArmies  – 03:41, Thursday December 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * Update? Can some of the people who support a blurb update the article? Five votes like that and it's up. μηδείς (talk) 03:49, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * What other update are you asking for besides what's already there? 3000 words about each minor detail of the circumstances of his death? -- ELEKHHT 04:28, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I've given the important parts of the article a bit of a tidy, and added a few more sentences on the reaction to his death, which seemed to suffice for Dave Brubeck (below). Marking as updated. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> IgnorantArmies  – 05:44, Thursday December 6, 2012 (UTC)


 * Support for RD. Significant architect. Egeymi (talk) 06:17, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support for RD, oppose blurb. Celebrity architects just don't have the profile to sustain full blurb level of interest.  I would expect full blurb now to be for "hold the press" deaths only.  Kevin McE (talk) 07:17, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posted under Recent deaths. --  tariq abjotu  07:44, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * What is the difference between this and the full blurb for Dave Brubeck? One of the foremost exponents of a type of jazz, itself a type of musical style. And "one of the key figures in the development of modern architecture." Oh wait, one is from the United States. Guess which one. This is an absolute outrageous decision. --86.40.197.18 (talk) 21:12, 7 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support full blurb. Article is in very good shape.  Spencer T♦ C 22:37, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment concur that it is remarkably inconsistent to have a blurb for Dave Brubeck but not for Niemeyer. Added a blurb suggestion. -- ELEKHHT 23:14, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but Niemeyer wasn't an American, so... 87.114.31.223 (talk) 00:46, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Further to the above one of the most reputable architecture historians William J. R. Curtis just wrote that "To say that Oscar Niemeyer was a living legend would be an understatement.". Niemeyer's death is reported all over the world. Maybe is time for a blurb... -- ELEKHHT 01:16, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Where in the world did the notion that one nom's blurbworthiness implies another blurb should be pulled? Please refer to the discussion of such a policy and where it was accepted. μηδείς (talk) 03:54, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * If a blurb is 100% necessary, remove Brubeck's then. The point of the ticker was to not clog up ITN and yet people are suggesting to do it anyway. Support ticker but oppse blurb for either personally. Wizardman  03:41, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I concur, neither should have a blurb. Abductive  (reasoning) 03:44, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Any particular reason? -- ELEKHHT 03:50, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oddly enough we have people arguing on the talk page that the fact that this has not been made a full blurb is a sort of bias, while they haven't nominated him for one here or even expressed there opinion. μηδείς (talk) 02:09, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That's odd. Your monitor is not displaying the proposed blurb, the discussions about the blurb and the support for blurb? -- ELEKHHT 10:59, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * To be overly explicit, as apparently some missed it: Support full blurb, as argued above. -- ELEKHHT 14:30, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Recent Death: Elisabeth Murdoch

 * Oppose. I'm not seeing what is meant by "it's more than that". No disrespect to her at all, but it's very hard to see what her ITN-worthy contribution to the world was. Formerip (talk) 19:55, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Highly decorated, notable in many ways: wonder if FormerIP read the article and the quote from a major Australian (non-Murdoch) paper: "Her interests are so many they need to be alphabetically catalogued: academia, the arts, children, flora and fauna, heritage, medical research, social welfare. Many of Melbourne and Australia's most cherished institutions, from the Royal Children's Hospital to the Australian Ballet and the Botanic Gardens, have benefited from her involvement. But Murdoch also devoted herself to less popular causes: prisoners, children in care, those battling mental illness and substance abuse."  Page views consistently 220-250/day or more.  Kevin McE (talk) 21:36, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * My interests also need to be catalogued alphabetically and I have given money to many charities. Relative to wealth, this may be less or more than Rupert Murdoch's mum. It's hard to say. I suppose the only thing standing in the way of me being posted to ITN is the fact that I am still breathing. Formerip (talk) 23:58, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * And if you are made a CBE before you stop breathing, and have consistent daily wikitraffic of >200 hits/day, I'll support it. Kevin McE (talk) 19:03, 6 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose --IP98 (talk) 22:27, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Update totally inadequate, but I expect coverage to be enormous given her son, so that should change. --IP98 (talk) 22:27, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm unclear about about what makes per pioneering. The Philanthropy section says she was president of the Royal Childrens Hospital from 1958 to 1965, but beyond that it's pretty vague. --IP98 (talk) 22:27, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose- Don't understand what makes her pioneering.
 * Oppose, not notable enough from an international perspective. Kaldari (talk) 19:03, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted] Dave Brubeck for recent deaths

 * Support, pretty notable in the world of jazz (he did Take Five, which is one of the most recognisable pieces from the genre). Could even be a full blurb. LukeSurlt c 18:06, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Definitely for Recent Deaths. I'd have to be convinced to support a full blurb, but I'm not automatically against it either. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:09, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Strong support, take five (seconds to support this): "The State Department said in a statement that "as a pianist, composer, cultural emissary and educator, Dave Brubeck's life's work exemplifies the best of America's cultural diplomacy." Time Out was the first jazz album to sell more than a million. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:23, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Long term hits are well excess of 700/day; in top 9000 of all article views. Wat ahead of others who have been in this abridged format.  Kevin McE (talk) 19:34, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support if we can find a way to post it in an unusual time signature. Formerip (talk) 19:51, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The article has now been put into past tense as appropriate, and a sentence has been added about how he died. We can wait a few hours for tributes to roll in which we can copy for the "five sentence update" but I think this is unnecessary. For a natural death such as this, the article's purpose is essentially as an obituary and it is the details of his life that readers will be interested in, not those of his death. Suggest posting now. --LukeSurlt c 20:00, 5 December 2012 (UTC) P.S. Yes, this is a slight deviation from policy, but I can't see how waiting helps the Wikipedia project. In my opinion the update requirements should be relaxed for recent deaths if they are natural deaths.
 * Quite agree with you about not having to wait LukeSurl, but am obviously biased in this case. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:11, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I have made a proposal for changing the formal policy as well. LukeSurlt c 20:22, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't see the need for a "five sentence update" regarding the death of a 91 year old. The only content we can add is tribute. It's not like there's an investigation into the death, such as there is/will be for Jovan Belcher. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:35, 5 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Ready While you have been sitting here complaining an update is not necessary, I have updated the article. It's ready to go, no policy trickery needed. μηδείς (talk) 20:38, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * haha, who's complaining! "Three (hours) to Get Ready" - that's pretty good going. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:45, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't get your allusion, can you explain? In any case, it took me less time to update the article then was spent on arguing it didn't need updating.
 * ... maybe you need some time out?


 * Posted --  tariq abjotu  20:56, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * PS This is a nom I'd've posted with a blurb. Is there any support for upgrading this?  He was certainly the greatest living Jazz Musician at the time of his death. μηδείς (talk) 21:21, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose full blurb- Musicians are overrepresented in ITN, and he isn't one of the most famous musicians of all time.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 22:30, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support full blurb - Subject was super notable in my view for "Take Five" and a long lifetime of music, and I was pleasantly surprised to see this on ITN's full listings. Good call! Jus  da  fax   21:29, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted] Dave Brubeck

 * Strong support. Certainly. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:26, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support as per my comments above. Article seems to be in quite good shape. --LukeSurlt c 21:32, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support One of the more important composers of the last century, certainly meets the top of his field criterion. μηδείς (talk) 21:44, 5 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose full blurb. I don't think his death quite reaches that level. Undeniably notable and significant, especially in the world of jazz, but not a household name. --Bongwarrior (talk) 22:04, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * No one in my extended family was unaware of him or his passing, and none of us is a musician. Perhaps your household is different.  The criterion is top of his field, not tip of your tongue. μηδείς (talk) 22:14, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * What criterion? As far as I know, the requirements for a full blurb vs. death ticker haven't been discussed in any great detail. Many/most of the recent death entries we have posted were also at the top of their respective fields. --Bongwarrior (talk) 22:36, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Being significant in one's field has always been a criterion of ITN death notices and Brubeck surpasses that, does he not? μηδείς (talk) 22:48, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know, old people die, especially very old people. But his age and musical longevity also count here, I think. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:56, 5 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose. The whole point of RD is to ensure that people who are notable can be posted uncontroversially, without clogging up the template with formulaic tripe such as [nationality] [profession] [forename] [surname] dies [at the age of XX]. If the deceased is Michael Jackson, the death itself is worth writing about, or both of the above apply, then a full blurb should be considered. —WFC— FL wishlist 09:23, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, I don't see the output of Brubeck's long life as "formulaic tripe", either. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:44, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * e.g. "Dave Brubeck, the Jazz pianist, whose 1959 album Time Out was the first jazz platinum album, dies aged 91"? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:51, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Now, that might be a credible blurb. I'll pop it into the nomination. —WFC— FL wishlist 09:02, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I was tempted to put "dies the day before his 92nd birthday", which might be considered somehow ironic/notable at that age, perhaps. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:54, 7 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support full blurb. Article is in very good shape, and Brubeck had a very important impact in jazz music.  Spencer T♦ C 05:45, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. One of the most important and successful living (until recently) jazz performers, known worldwide.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:08, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Very notable musician. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 11:35, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Promote Given the strong support here and above for this nom and a full blurb I suggest we promote it now--suggest we also use shorter altblurb which removes a redundant "album". μηδείς (talk) 18:22, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posted as full blurb, given the quality of the article and consensus here.  Spencer T♦ C 20:49, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Also there are several images to choose from: should an older image be used, or one from more recently?  Spencer T♦ C 20:51, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Spencer, considering you supported posting it as a full blurb in the discussion, shouldn't you allow another administrator to decide if consensus exists to post it as a full blurb? Ryan Vesey 01:35, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I've done this before, including with articles I have updated or nominated, albeit from nominations that have had much less after-posting discussion. Although in this case I do believe there was clear consensus to post a full blurb at the time, I will refrain from doing so in the future. Sorry about that.  Spencer T♦ C 04:25, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose full blurb per above, doesn't have the international notability. The point of the ticker was for people like this. Wizardman  03:42, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Per WP:ITN/DC, this falls under criteria 2, "The deceased was widely regarded as a very important figure in his or her field.", which isn't contingent on international notability.  Spencer T♦ C 03:58, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That's criteria for eligibility for a blurb, not an automatic qualification. International notability still could be used as an argument against him.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 01:22, 9 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Strong oppose: I thought the reason we created the 'recent deaths' line on ITN precisely to avoid posting deaths like this one. I'd argue first that procedurally speaking, there was no clear consensus on this issue (see for example some of the vociferous protests against this here), so it was premature. <BR>Secondly, blurbs for recent deaths should really use a "Michael-Jackson test". Think about Michael Jackson - not only did news sources from around the world report his death, it gave continuous coverage of it for days after it happened. Not only because he was a cultural icon, but also because it was extremely unexpected. I browse the New York Times and various other newspapers today and I find coverage of the death itself very few and far in between. In addition, in contrast to the Jackson death, coverage in places outside of the Western world is scant to non-existent. 193 news sources covered his death according to Google News, while the number for Jackson numbered over 3,000. This is orders of magnitude of a difference. <BR>Finally, this sets an extremely bad precedent for future 'recent deaths' posts to devolve into blurbs vs. 'single-link' debates. If someone like Dave Brubeck is even considered on the threshold, as some have suggested by invoking ITN/DC 2, then the vast majority of our recent RD discussions would also easily fall on this threshold (and many can be argued to be even more notable than Brubeck). <BR>For me, this is a no brainer. We should replace the blurb with an RD link. Colipon+ (Talk) 02:45, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * If you believe other nominations deserve promotion, argue that fact. After the link has been promoted we can pretty much be assured by anti-confirmation bias or whatever it is called that only complainers will come to complain.  The simple fact is that Brubeck would most certainly have gotten a full listing back when there weren't just ticker listings.  Rather than complain against, work and argue in favor of what you support, please. μηδείς (talk) 03:12, 9 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Shifted back to Recent deaths I don't think there was consensus to put it up as a full blurb, but even if someone disagrees, it should not have been posted by an admin who supported posting it as such. --  tariq abjotu  03:16, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually... now that I read this, I realize I was slightly confused. I didn't realize this was not a continuation of the previous nomination that led to it being posted under Recent deaths, but a separate nomination in which (presumably) the discussion is only about whether it deserved a full blurb. So I'm putting it up, at the same time eliminating any objection based on who posted it. --  tariq abjotu  03:21, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * If this is purely procedural, it doesn't change the fact that Spencer both supported the full blurb and posted it. If you believe consensus exists for the full blurb, there's no problem. Ryan Vesey 03:26, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't understand what was unclear. --  tariq abjotu  14:48, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * International It's simply absurd to claim there's no international notability, see: France, Stuttgarter Zeitung, German, España, Portuguese, Italia, Die Welt, Nord Littoral, Russian - that just being the pages I can easily read myself in non-English languages. μηδείς (talk) 03:38, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * You confuse me. You seem to be so gung-ho about Recent deaths, and yet at the same time, still gung-ho (and somewhat annoyingly so) about giving someone a full blurb. --  tariq abjotu  14:48, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * As you will see at the Talk Page, there is some dispute over whether Time Out really was the first jazz platinum album, or whether it tied (.. on exactly the same day) with Miles Davis' Kind of Blue. I see that someone has very sensibly removed this claim from the Main Page blurb. I personally don't think this really affects the international notability of Brubeck's life and work, or his death. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:36, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Cartels fined by European Commission

 * Support. A large fine levied on many well-known tech companies seems noteworthy. 331dot (talk) 16:43, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Tentative support, re: notability it's pretty large as far as fines go. However the the article update is pretty small, and I'm not sure it's got sufficient potential to grow within the confines of the Barroso Commission article. If a decent article could be written on the affair itself I would lend full support. LukeSurlt c 19:23, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose civil fines by bureaucrats? That's what they do for a living--very meh. μηδείς (talk) 21:45, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Weak Support this is a very large fine, and it relates to a significant and long running price fixing scandal. Weak because the update is really thin, and this could probably be spun off into it's own article by an interested party. PS: Almost everything we post is organizations doing what they do: footballers kicking a ball, elections electing someone, race car drivers driving, courts passing judgement, etc; so an oppose on the grounds that this is business as usual is either misplaced or staggeringly inconsistent. --IP98 (talk) 22:40, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Against exactly whom are these office penguins competing? They simply declare you guilty and you are.  I just got a whole year's wages' award from a bureaucratic agency.  Does that make them or me notable?  Had there been a criminal trial with a guilty verdict, maybe.  But this is simply a decree.  It's a press release of the least notability. μηδείς (talk) 22:52, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Why does there have to be a competition? They have the authority to levy fines for rules violations. They found a violation, and levied a substantial fine. The size of the fine, and the breadth of the cartel are both significant. Is there something I'm missing? --IP98 (talk) 23:14, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * (to Medeis) We're not talking about a traffic ticket or routine workplace violation fine, these are several multi-million Euro fines against several companies who were engaging in widespread illegal conduct. 331dot (talk) 00:28, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * If this headline were that the exact same companies announced they planned to accept a bureaucratic fine in order to pursue a specific business practice it would be laughed at as a nomination. It is not a record fine, it is not a criminal conviction, it is simply how business is done. μηδείς (talk) 17:05, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Unlawful behaviour is business as usual and therefore not news worthy? --IP98 (talk) 21:10, 6 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support - very large fine exacted by a notable body against multinational companies. Claritas § 23:59, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: Article needs expansion, also probably something about the price-fixing itself, not just listing amounts of the fines.  Spencer T♦ C 07:33, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support likely has large implications for business and politics 80.220.125.41 (talk) 09:05, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support An interesting story and a very significant development in business/economics doktorb wordsdeeds 17:18, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Decline in number of spermatozoa per millilitre

 * Oppose results not broadly accepted, and this is a single uncontrolled survey. Additionally, article needs an update, and the phrasing of the blurb needs to be qualified and refined. 130.188.8.27 (talk) 10:37, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Agree with the IP above. This is a single unconfirmed study. The blurb also needs serious rewriting: "number of millions..." is redundant, and one might just as well say 'sperm count' and have done with it. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:44, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. One study, which is unconfirmed and states no cause. Someone quoted in the article even states that it isn't necessarily a problem. 331dot (talk) 12:01, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose Per the three posts above. --85.210.97.62 (talk) 15:03, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose This seems dubious to say the least, particularly with a claim such as "pioneering research" in the blurb, which automatically suggests a POV.--WaltCip (talk) 17:13, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

2020 rover

 * Oppose - Far too far in the future. AlexTiefling (talk) 14:57, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Re-post in 2020, seriously. Only if Wikipedia is still going or if we aren't all wiped out in nearly 2 weeks of course. --85.210.97.62 (talk) 15:01, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. NASA has many missions on the drawing board, all of which can be changed, cancelled, or defunded by Congress and/or POTUS at any time; this shouldn't be posted in ITN until it is launched. 331dot (talk) 16:42, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose Definitely too far off into the future. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:12, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Eight years too early.-- xanchester  (t)  12:22, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

British rules of royal succession

 * believe we posted this at the last commonwealth summit in aus. (or did it fail?)Lihaas (talk) 18:59, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * AFAICT, it was nominated, 8-1 in favour, but it didn't get posted . Formerip (talk) 19:12, 4 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Note, the correct target article for this blurb (if we run with it) should be 2011 proposals to change the rules of royal succession in the Commonwealth realms, which as yet contains only a single sentence update to the citation above. We'd need more expansion of that article; also maybe a retitle as the succession rules changes situation seems to have included significant 2012 events as well.  -- Jayron  32  19:54, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. 16 countries agree to make moves towards a change in legislation: no changes have yet happened anywhere. Countries have plans to change laws is not ITNworthy: when all 16 have done so, it would be worth posting.  Kevin McE (talk) 20:23, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I agree with Kevin McE; merely deciding to do something isn't noteworthy, only when it is actually done(by all 16) is it noteworthy. 331dot (talk) 20:49, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support The problem with the above reasoning is that it will take different amounts of time to get the various bills and constitutional amendments through the parliaments of the 14 different countries that need to. For example, I would imagine it will pass pretty quickly in the UK since all it has to do is go through parliament, but in some countries there may be more issues - in Canada for example it needs approval of all the provinces as well as parliament, which apparently may result in trouble from Quebec, and it may require a referendum in Australia. As such all the different countries will enact it at different times, so unless you want to post them all this would be the much better choice. The other issue I have with waiting for all the realms is due to size difference, the law could be passed by the UK, Canada, Australia... faster than in Tuvalu, but following Kevin McE would still require waiting. There's not goign to be any better opportunity to post this at a later date.--<font face="Century Gothic" size="3">23230  <font face="Century Gothic">talk 21:11, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * What about after the last of the countries pass the required legislation? "X is the last Commonwealth realm to pass Y, fully ending male-preference primogeniture for succession to the throne." GregChant (talk) 03:46, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * What? We either need a bold linked article or a very much fuller explanation of what this nom is about. μηδείς (talk) 21:13, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: I have provide a potential target article, without any comment on whether or not this should or should not eventually be posted. -- Jayron  32  21:17, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * You could click on the newslink. Formerip (talk) 21:16, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree the suggested blurb is not great. An alternative: All 16 Commonwealth realms agree to reform rules on succession to the throne from male-preference to equal primogeniture ((and remove the ban on marrying Catholics)) ((The last section is could be included or excluded depending on length)). I agree with some of the above that the article could use a lot of work, probably including a name change.--<font face="Century Gothic" size="3">23230  <font face="Century Gothic">talk 21:26, 4 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose per Kevin McE. - Presidentman talk · contribs Random Picture of the Day (Talkback) 21:48, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Kevin McE, except I don't necessarily agree this is notable if all 16 countries do it. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:06, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Opppose. In my view, Martin23230's "support" rationale works against his argument.  If only minor formalities remained, that would be a good reason to proceed with an ITN item.  But given the fact that non-trivial obstacles still exist, it seems premature to treat this as a done deal.  Stating that the "countries agree[d]", despite pending/uncertain legislative approval in some, is misleading.  —David Levy 22:26, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - This is highly notable stuff, but we should hold fire until the UK (which will be last) passes the law. Agreements in principle are fine only in principle; let's not jump the gun by posting them in place of actual legislation. (See also: Scottish and Catalan independence, and any number of other predicted but as yet unrealised constitutional changes around the world.) AlexTiefling (talk) 22:37, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Wait until it's been passed.   Hot Stop     (Talk)   22:50, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose There has only been confirmation of changes about to be made, not confirmation of changes, which is the kind of distinction that is important for ITN doktorb wordsdeeds 23:18, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose as nonnews per Kevin McE. Additionally, British monarchs hold no power, so I'm having a hard time seeing the impact of this beyond gossip. 130.188.8.27 (talk) 06:56, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - this is essentially just a re-affirmation of a previous agreement. Reconsider when legislation actually passes/comes into effect. LukeSurlt c 11:30, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted] Supertyphoon Bopha strikes Phillipines

 * As you suggest, we should keep a watch on this. We usually report storms primarily via discussing the damage and loss of life that they've caused, so we won't be able to completely formulate and discuss this nomination until those such facts are known. LukeSurlt c 00:17, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It seems to me that the appropriate question is whether it is news yet. In my view the unusual features of this storm make it news already, even if nothing more happens. Looie496 (talk) 00:45, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

I just googled around, but see no reports of damage or casualities as of yet. The article seems decent enough, but so far I don't see a reason to support this. Mind you, that could change quickly. Jus da  fax   06:34, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Post, Already! I am not quite sure why this hasn't been posted already.  It would have been had it struck the US.  It has met the update requirement several times over, and is certainly as newsworthy as, say, Sandy. μηδείς (talk) 04:26, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It does meet the update requirement as of yesterday. A "December 4" section has to be created for today's events, which shouldn't be that hard... – H  T  D  04:34, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Considering almost no one has commented on it, I don't know why you expect someone to just post it. It's not ITN/R. It looks newsworthy to me too, but a couple more supports are necessary. In fact, were there any before you posted? --  tariq abjotu  06:07, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Watch closely and be ready: merely making landfall is not ITNworthy, but, unfortunately, there will almost certainly be consequences that are, and those will be the essence of a blurb. Shame on the media in UK/Europe for the paucity of coverage, especially in comparison with the blanket coverage Sandy which had comparable wind speeds and was of no more direct consequence to those of us here. Kevin McE (talk) 07:20, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * And now there is, sadly, more to report, so landfall is no longer the headline, and vote becomes support. Alt blub added. Kevin McE (talk) 20:05, 4 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support notable event, article is ready, impact is obvious.130.188.8.27 (talk) 07:29, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose If only because the most vocal supporters here seem to be engaging in a very distasteful game of political correctness. doktorb wordsdeeds 08:23, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Wait per Kevin McE, but worth noting, I think, that an opinion can on occasion be both correct and politically correct. It's not neccessarily mutually exclusive. EdwardLane (talk) 10:34, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Weak support – decent update, the event is of an encyclopaedic nature, and the big news outlets seem to all be covering this, albeit not quite as prominently as I had expected. —WFC— FL wishlist 12:03, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Weak SupportThe Guardian now reporting at least 5 dead 50,000 evacuated (I put the link in the sources above), a google news search had a local paper saying 7 dead 24 missing, so changing from wait to weak support for reporting a 600km wide storm (which is all I think I gave Sandy).EdwardLane (talk) 12:09, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support - According to various media outlets the death toll is 80 odd and rising, and we are probably looking at the retirement of the name as will prob cause over 300 deaths.Jason Rees (talk) 17:35, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. Major destructive storm. 331dot (talk) 17:41, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Ready This is updated, current news, and has unanimous support. I do think it's ready. μηδείς (talk) 18:11, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. More than eighty casualties, over a hundred injuries. It's a very destructive storm. Article has been updated and expanded.-- xanchester  (t)  18:40, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. Massive destruction in Palau and dozens of fatalities, with dozens to hundreds more likely, in Mindanao. Second most southerly Category 5 on record. Lots of stuff noteworthy. TropicalAnalystwx13 (talk) 19:34, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posted -- Jayron  32  20:00, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - Given the death toll and widespread damage, I suggest we update the blurb to reflect that. Jus  da  fax   21:34, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Good idea. I've added the number killed; is this acceptable, or did you have something more than that in mind? (I was concerned about making the blurb too lengthy.) Also, the storm is regaining strength and may hit again . I suggest modifying the blurb and bumping to the top if this happens and the impact is severe. --Bongwarrior (talk) 22:19, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Government of Ukraine resignation

 * The article makes it seem like the government transition was expected following the Ukrainian parliamentary election, 2012. I am unclear on why this is not a normal transition of government following an election.  If it is such a landmark situation, can you rewrite the updated section of the article to make it clearer?  Thanks!  -- Jayron  32  21:16, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose, as far as I understand it. They were obliged to commit to standing down as an obligation of the recent election: many members of the resigning (but remaining in place for the interim) government will be reappointed when the electoral results from the election are enacted on 15th Dec.  Kevin McE (talk) 21:50, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Iesu Hristu, Kyril. Combien de fois peut un homme utiliser la parole "it" quand il veut (en anglais) indiquer une personne et pas une chose? Je regrette d'avoir posé la question. μηδείς (talk) 04:42, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose Regular occurrence after an election in a Parliamentary democracy. - Presidentman talk · contribs Random Picture of the Day (Talkback) 22:01, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. A standard result of an election, not an unusual, unplanned event. 331dot (talk) 22:02, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose: Mandatory consequence of the recent parliamentary election. --RJFF (talk) 22:11, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Inquiry Was the election itself posted to ITN? If not, why is the nom invalid as if it were old news that had already been covered? μηδείς (talk) 22:28, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Please check the sources for the exact date when the resignation was accepted. Calling me "invalid" is not something that will be appreciated here. I really need to consult with any of the admins to take care with you and your comments.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 00:01, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I read "nom" as "nomination", not "nominator". – Muboshgu (talk) 00:10, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I think you may have misinterpreted μηδείς's intention. When he said "nom" he meant "nomination" rather than "nominator". It was actually a fairly procedural question about the story, not an attack of any sort. --LukeSurlt c 00:13, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I've already read that "nom" as "nominator" here, as it's pretty strange the "nomination" to update itself.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 00:24, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * In that example, Medeis is certainly saying "nom" as "nominator", but in this case I'm pretty sure it means "nomination", asking whether or not the nomination is valid. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:31, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'me sure there must be something in the rules about doing bad translations of Bob Dylan into other languages. Formerip (talk) 10:27, 4 December 2012 (UTC)


 * The election wasn't posted to ITN, because the result came only in a week after election day (and then the nomination was considered stale). Therefore I would support posting if the President swears in a new government. But if the old cabinet stays in office ad interim, there is no real news. A new government formation will be interesting, because the allegiance of independents is not yet completely certain (however, most of them are considered pro-government). --RJFF (talk) 12:39, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose the present nomination, but support the posting of the new government when it forms, and endorse Medeis' criticism of Kiril, which is spot-on. AlexTiefling (talk) 12:45, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * No, please, I don't want to be seen as criticizing Kiril; just very confused by how he could think something I was calling an it would be a person, or how people could be invalid. I was actually sympathetic to the nomination, and he seemed to interpret that as hostility to the nominator.  But no criticisms. μηδείς (talk) 21:22, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * My apologies to both of you for my misunderstanding. I am also sympathetic to the nomination, and would like to see the story covered when it's the right time. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:12, 5 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support in solidarity with invalid noms. 130.188.8.27 (talk) 13:21, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Turner Prize

 * Support in principle, but her article needs a little work. I'm surprised this is not on the ITNR list. Is it really less well-known than the Struga Poetry Evenings or the Fields Medal? Formerip (talk) 20:23, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support and suggest the featured list List of Turner Prize winners and nominees is included in the blurb, pipe linked as at least that's of decent quality, unlike the main prize page or the winner's page. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:26, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose It says it's a prize eligible only to British visual artists under the age of 50. That's too many qualifiers for me to believe this is ITN/R-worthy. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:28, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * A fair point. The Huffington Post ran a live blog on the ceremony so it's not entirely insular to the UK, but still, I get your concern.  But per FormerIP, its surely more notable than the "Struga Poetry Evenings"...?!!!  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:33, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The prize occasionally makes news in the US when it is controversial, but even then less than 1/100 will know what it is. μηδείς (talk) 20:38, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The BBC quote it as "Video artist Elizabeth Price wins Turner Prize, one of the art world's most prestigious awards". That may be the opinion of one writer at the BBC, but if it is considered one of the world's most prestigious art prizes, it presumably meets any notability requirements here. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:42, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm a bit confused, because I'm pretty sure it is a Brits-only prize, as mentioned, but at least one German has won (Wolfgang Tillmans). Not sure how that works. Anyhow, I think the prestige of the award would be based on the list of past winners, if you know enough about contemporary art. Formerip (talk) 20:57, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The two Germans who have won have both been based in the UK. --Stephen 22:09, 3 December 2012 (UTC)


 * This is not a discussion on whether this prize is ITN/R-worthy, but on whether this individual news story should be featured in ITN on its individual merits. --RJFF (talk) 22:20, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * And I oppose it for its too specific criteria. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:36, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose it's simply not more notable than any of the current listings, plus the above comments. μηδείς (talk) 22:13, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support: very renowned prize, broad media attention (also outside the UK: NYT, Washington Post, Chicago Tribune, Business Week CBC...) --RJFF (talk) 22:17, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Is that a joke, RJFF? Because the artsbeatblog at the NYT is hardly the front page, even if it does have a few dozen readers. μηδείς (talk) 22:24, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * You're setting the bar too high. Art events rarely, if ever, get to the front page of mainstream media. doktorb wordsdeeds 22:26, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * One more argument: we rarely have arts topics in ITN. --RJFF (talk) 22:33, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Probably because the mainstream media don't care enough. As much as possible, we follow media coverage, otherwise we'd be making up what's in the news. – H T  D  12:34, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * A fair and fine observation. doktorb wordsdeeds 22:35, 3 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose. The prize does not have broad enough criteria to be listed as an ITN event, much as Muboshgu said above.  331dot (talk) 22:29, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support-ish - the premier art award in the UK, seems an important development in Art, one of the major fields an encyclopaedia should cover. However I'd accept an argument it's too UK-centric, I'm pretty much unable to really judge that from my computer here in Norwich. --LukeSurlt c 23:29, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose a recurring event, not on ITN/R, and nothing notable about this occurrence of the item. Also the stub like article has an inadequate update. --IP98 (talk) 00:48, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * In_the_news/Candidates, see the last entry. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 00:53, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That item was boldly added by Bzweebl without discussion. I vehemently opposed it, even tried to revert it, and was shouted down. I strongly disagree with the logic behind it, and I stand by my oppose. --IP98 (talk) 01:14, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I think you'll find that the technical term for "was shouted down" is "favoured a view that did not gain consensus." By all means continue to post such opposes if you find it therapeutic (it is only a request not to do so), but expect admins to read it as an argument that, according to consensus, is not to be given any weight. Kevin McE (talk) 06:56, 4 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose- Is it really necessary to post an individual country's art prize?  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 01:06, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * We commonly post national prizes in sport. Would one in the whole year for art be so bad? If you google "world's most prestigious art prize", this does seem to be the one. Formerip (talk) 01:09, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That doesn't sound like a valid vote to me. doktorb wordsdeeds 06:58, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Why is there a problem with this prize being national, but not with the NBA Finals, the Super Bowl, or the Premier League (which is even for English teams only, while this is for all Britons and resident aliens, "living, working or born in Britain")? It obviously draws international attention, as I have showed above, citing US and Canadian news media. --RJFF (talk) 12:24, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * U.S. and Canadian news media buried in some specialist section that only comes to life in 2 out of 365 days of the year?. – H T  D  12:34, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * How prominent do you expect the Grey Cup final was in European media? Formerip (talk) 13:29, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Probably as good as rugby union coverage in Indonesia? – H T  D  13:34, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * To give an example on how this is big in the UK, Price's article's page views (BTW, it's a pain to access the stats nowadays) don't surpass 60/day, until she won where it jumped to an impressive 2.5k. Compare to Toronto Argonauts with daily pageviews in the hundreds to the thousands. Grey Cup is a big thing i Canada and is not just relegated to some specialist CFL section nobody reads. – H  T  D  13:48, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That's a weird set of arguments. Surely the sudden upsurge in interest in this person so that she -wow!- now gets more views that a Canadian Football team just indicates the significance of the event (?). Formerip (talk) 14:07, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Last time I checked, the Argonauts article got 10x as more views as Price's. – H T  D  14:17, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Only when it's linked from the front page. Formerip (talk) 14:24, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Judging from the BC Lions stats last year (which was not posted), somewhat half of the Argonauts' page views can be attributed for it being linked to the Main Page. That's still significantly higher than Price's article. Also, it helped that it was quickly posted (hahah), and that Toronto is a larger media market. – H T  D  14:41, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't using our own internal usage stats to determine newsworthiness mean that we were making up the news? Let's not do that. AlexTiefling (talk) 13:59, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That's nonsense, Alex. We as editors do not control what user stats are; they are independent (thank god) of editor consensus. μηδείς (talk) 22:36, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It isn't for all Britons, it's for those under 50 years old, which I'm sure leaves out many artists. 331dot (talk) 14:04, 4 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support also, is there free versions of the winner's art? Would make a good ITN picture.130.188.8.27 (talk) 07:30, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Why was this discussion closed? I didn't feel it had run its course or become too heated --LukeSurlt c 16:04, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * LOL even when this was close people were still commenting. – H T  D  15:18, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't get it either. Whoever did it didn't do us the courtesy of leaving a statement on why. No accountability there. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:57, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Then just reopen it..Lihaas (talk) 18:53, 4 December 2012 (UTC) `
 * I did explain, and have put a note in the talk page of ITN/R. By the by, I have no problem with the nomination being re-opened, though I suppose now the chance for it being posted has passed doktorb wordsdeeds 23:19, 4 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose the scope of the award is to narrow.   Hot Stop     (Talk)   22:54, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I do find the "scope" argument somewhat curious. The "scope" of the Superbowl final is two teams from, what, 24 franchises, all based in the US?  The "notability" of the Superbowl final is without question, and that really should be what we're commenting on here.  The "scope" of many of the ITN/R items is small, smaller even than this, but yet they feature without question.  I suggest you think about it's a "scope" thing or a "notability" thing here, if the New York Times, the LA Times, the Huffington Post, Le Monde, etc have articles on the winner, it's probably irrelevant what the "scope" is...  The Rambling Man (talk) 17:18, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Most of those news outlets are also covering Prince William & Kate's announcement, but that's being rejected. The Super Bowl is the highest level of professional football in the US(with 30 teams spread over the country), and is a nationwide, popular sport; the Turner Prize is only given to people under 50, not any possible nominee or entrant. Apples and oranges. I wouldn't support listing the winner of a particular NFL division, or the winner of a college division. 331dot (talk) 17:28, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Wow, 30 pro teams over a country of 300m+ people. The UK has over 100 pro football teams in a country with 60m people.  Apples and oranges back at ya... The real point is that the notability of this prize supersedes your opinion of the inclusion criteria, as demonstrated by its global coverage.  Cheers! The Rambling Man (talk) 17:34, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * My point is that this Prize does not represent the best possible artist in the UK as those over 50 are not included. It would be as if an Academy Award was only given to actors under 50. The Super Bowl winner does represent the best team out of all professional teams. 331dot (talk) 18:14, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Your point is invalid. This is "In The News", not "What 331dot thinks is important".  Global coverage of this art prize suggests your assertion of parochialism to be somewhat misguided.  18:16, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It kinda is "What 331dot thinks is important", or more specifically ""What 331dot and Hot_Stop and The Rambling Man and Howard the Duck and etc. etc. think is important". ITN (and Wikipedia as a whole) is a community whose "opinions" are essentially the aggregation of those of its editors. LukeSurlt c
 * No, you've missed the point as well. It's all very well to oppose anything here but if you oppose on false grounds or on a misunderstanding of the criteria, then it's not important what an individual thinks.  That's the key to how articles should be chosen, a well-judged appraisal of supports and opposes, and if either have misunderstood the inclusion criteria, then they should be disregarded.  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:31, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It's not "false grounds"; it's my assessment of the notability of this award in order to consider its merits for inclusion on ITN, just as your opinion is based on the same. That's what this page is for- for users to post their opinions and debate them to arrive at a consensus, if possible.  I've given mine, and you've given yours. There is no such thing as a "false" opinion- that's why it's called an opinion. I don't think there is anyone here in the business of determining whose opinion is valid and whose isn't. 331dot (talk) 00:37, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Again, "global coverage" is only a small part of reasoning for including things here; I saw the North Korean "unicorn" story in several outlets worldwide; Prince William's and Kate's upcoming child is being covered globally, etc. etc. Just because an event is mentioned globally doesn't mean automatic entry into ITN. 331dot (talk) 00:40, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Prince William and Kate expecting child

 * Only if the article is updated with a scan. Formerip (talk) 16:50, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Wait till the baby is actually born? --Droodkin (talk) 16:53, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment I tend to agree with the nominator's concern, this is something that we will list if/when the child is born, we don't really need to run it now. Any child born here would become third in line to the British throne (I think, after Charles and William, regardless of whether baby is boy or girl) so that is a notable aspect, but given that Charles hasn't ascended yet, and doesn't look likely to do so for another decade, we're talking about a possible monarch in 2060.... The Rambling Man (talk) 16:54, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I can't even see the merit of listing a birth (any birth), let alone a pregnancy announcement. Leave it to The Sun or something else deprived of real news. GRAPPLE   X  17:02, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support in principle because there will be huge readership interest and because this child will be in direct line for the throne--whether we have anything encyclopedic to say is another question. A link to British monarchy in the blurb or House of Windsor might make sense. μηδείς (talk) 17:11, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * ITN is not about tabloid news (who also, tragically, have "huge radership"). The article is simply not grabbing headlinesLihaas (talk) 19:04, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't say this often. "I agree with Lihaas". "Huge readership interest" is a tabloid editor's concern, not a Wikipedia contribuitors doktorb wordsdeeds 19:24, 3 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Tentative Wait until the child is born unless someone can find a 50 shades tie in for the above mentions tabloids to froth over. ;) --<font size="2" color="SteelBlue" face="Segoe Script">wintonian  <font color="LightSteelBlue">talk  17:16, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment As much as most of us probably think this is a bit overblown celebrity gossip with a regal twist, like it or not, this is very much what is in the news at the current time. People will be coming to en:wikipedia to look up this story. Perhaps we should swallow our pride a bit and consider this? --LukeSurlt c 17:18, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's my point. We do have some good articles on the royal family worth linking readers to and interest on this topic is worldwide.  Unfortunately we all too often support our own pet topics and look down our noses at actual users of the project. μηδείς (talk) 18:49, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * But that sets a dangerous precedent. "In the News" has always had a bias against this sort of news story, and with good reason. We're not a news ticker, more a news filter if anything, and allowing this through would have a "Penn State Coach" effect.....doktorb wordsdeeds 19:01, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know why you keep beating that dead coach. The issue here is worldwide frontpage coverage, and the presumed heir to the throne.  Later pregnancies will not be as notable.  The "filter" argument is ridiculous if you look at such things as striking state teachers protests making it to the front page and the strong support for posting a cricketer's announced retirement.  People coming to our front page should find links to the good articles we do have on the British monarchy and the House of Windsor.  That's what applying our standards should look like. μηδείς (talk) 19:08, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Because that was a watershed decision. It enables nominations, mostly from college-level minority sports, to get extra support. It's worth remembering that it took a long time to beat back those who wanted the Occupy movement on the front page, which in hindsight was even more of a success than it felt at the time. ITN is not designed as contents list or a highlights package. I think it's much more worthy of us to tip our hats to Ricky Ponting, who has achieved greatness in his career, to the pregnancy of a Royal Family member. We should wait until the baby is born, a far more logical announcement. doktorb wordsdeeds 19:23, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * This has pretty much snowed oppose, but I'm going to declare myself as support. Yes it's tabloid news, but people read tabloid newspapers. Opposing popular news stories because we don't deal them 'worthy' seems somewhat patriarchal. ITN should reflect the news (as it influences the ongoing development of the encyclopaedia), not pretend that it decides what the news is, nor consider itself a filter for news of a certain level of sophistication. For better or worse this will be top of the news cycle in many countries, and ITN is going to miss it out, despite it resulting in significant changes to several important articles. We're humans, not computer scripts, we don't need to run everything by a preordained set of rules - nor would this open the floodgates to every story one wouldn't want on ITN in the future.
 * I'm resigned to this not achieving consensus, but I think its a mis-step for ITN's role in the Wikipedia project. LukeSurlt c 20:28, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Given your 'reasoning', doktorb, shouldn't you be arguing we not acknowledge the conception of the next in line for the British crown until he's actually crowned? Certain events, like the re-election of Barack Obama, are notable even before the inauguration/christening/coronation. μηδείς (talk) 22:21, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure how to crack the surface of your sarcasm but I'll try. The re-election of Obama was notable because, and this may surprise you, it's the election of the President of the United States of America, and that sort of thing tends to tick plenty of boxes. What we have here is the pregnancy of the wife of someone second in line to the throne. The birth *will be* notable, because it's an addition to the Royal Family. The pregnancy is just something which happens along the way, and as such is quite close to a press release from Company A admitting it's in merger talks with Company B. I'm surprised at you, in a way, because I always thought you were a pretty good gatekeeper for ITN. doktorb wordsdeeds 22:32, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, thanks for the compliment. People do, however, disagree.  I support this nom not because I think it meets some sort of highbrow standard, but because it has a good beat, and you can dance to it.  That is, our readers will like it and we do have good encyclopedic articles to offer them.  As for Obama, he hasn't yet been certified by the Electoral College nor the House of Representatives nor sworn in.  By the "wait" rationale here, we shouldn't post Obama's reelection at least until the House certification in January, if not until he's been crowned 2013/01/20.  So while I am not so delusional as to expect the nabobs here to agree, I do think the rationale in favor of this posting is quite sound and in good faith. μηδείς (talk) 21:35, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * To return to LukeSurls point: Right now, on Google world news, directly under the royal baby, is the pope on twitter. Yep, the pope on Twitter. Just because something is in the news, doesn't mean it matters. --IP98 (talk) 00:52, 4 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose – a pregnancy is certainly not notable. Wait till the baby is actually born. —Bloom6132 (talk) 17:21, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment Le Monde and New York Times, "serious" newspapers currently have links to this story on their front pages, suggesting it is news beyond just the UK sphere. And foreign tablets such as Bild and Paris Match have splashed the thing as their main headline. I think I'd broadly agree with LukeSurl; it's not so much whether Wikipedia thinks it's worthy of being in the news, it's a question of whether it *is* in the news. And it seems to be. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 17:23, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, in the final analysis, of course it is about whether Wikipedia thinks it is worthy of posting. For various reasons, we haven't posted any of the stories currently on the BBC News homepage, for example. Formerip (talk) 17:29, 3 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose I suggest we only report the birth of a Royal baby, rather than the pregnancy. doktorb wordsdeeds 17:42, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Wait until the birth. That is all. --85.210.97.62 (talk) 18:07, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I phoned my mother with the news the minute I read it, but this is an encyclopedia, not a news ticker.  We'll post an ITN item when the baby is born and a Wikipedia article about him/her is written.  —David Levy 18:08, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose Wikipedia is not People magazine. Regarding figurehead monarchies (and I know that phrase will piss off some Brits), the only newsworthy bit to me is actual succession. I object to posting news about "baby bumps". – Muboshgu (talk) 19:03, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Wait until news of birth. This is likely to be the next king/queen of the various commonwealth realms some day, but there's no impending need to jump the gun.  Wikipedia doesn't need to get "scoops" and this event should appear in ITN, when the child is born.  Just not now.  -- Jayron  32  19:05, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Non-event until he/she pops out.  By the way, who calls her "Duchess Kate"?  Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:05, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * An unknowing American trying to be polite (i.e. me) :) I'm not sure what she is called. 331dot (talk) 19:34, 3 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Strong oppose. Not all pregnancies are successful, even Royal ones, alas. Let's hope the birth can be included here, in due course. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:42, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Obvious oppose, not significant now, we should wait until news of birth.Egeymi (talk) 19:45, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - I dont think this pregnancy is anything more special then your average joes birth. --BabbaQ (talk) 19:52, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose running this now. The birth of the third in line to the throne of the Commonwealth realms however would seem an automatic support. Let's wait six and a bit months. Pedro : Chat  20:32, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Wait until the birth. - Presidentman talk · contribs Random Picture of the Day (Talkback) 22:00, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Jokes? Shouldn't these "wait" 'votes' be outright opposes? Or are we expecting this nom to sit here alive for six moths? μηδείς (talk) 22:15, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose: The birth will be for ITN, the announcement of pregnancy isn't. --RJFF (talk) 22:22, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I might change my opinion if the child were a North Korean unicorn that signed a contract with a National League baseball team. --RJFF (talk) 22:27, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * For a comment like that one might hope Good King Hal would shorten you by a foot. Or a head. μηδείς (talk) 22:34, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * What is this bizarre obsession with Henry VIII? Incidentally, "King Hal" is more usually taken to be Henry V – but, as ever, don't let facts get in the way of your inscrutable comments. 87.114.31.223 (talk) 10:12, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Is your complaint that in my joke I should have called him Good King Har? μηδείς (talk) 21:28, 4 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment. I'm not lobbying this too hard, as I was mostly testing the waters of what people thought, and it makes sense to me to wait until the birth- but I disagree with the characterization of this as "tabloid news", unless NBC, the BBC, Le Monde, and the New York Times are tabloids now.  It's news relevant to the succession of the head of state of the UK and many other countries. I agree with LukeSurl's comments above- even as I understand this will not be posted. 331dot (talk) 22:58, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, once again I have to agree with Luke and 331, and wonder if the "wait" votes are not the funniest (unintentional?) jokes I've seen in ITN in years. μηδείς (talk) 04:50, 4 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Strong oppose - tabloid fodder with no impact whatsoever. We can post if/when they actually ascend to the throne, not before. A complete non-story. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 23:00, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * not if/when they do, surely, but if/when he/she (ever) does? Martinevans123 (talk) 23:06, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Is that a joke I don't get, or some kind of grammar comment? <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 23:47, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * obviously a failed attempt at both. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:55, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - It's much too early to call this one. Once an heir is actually born, that might be ITN-worthy. But when the attendant change in the succession law is finally passed, I'll back that for ITN: it's a constitutional amendment in a very literal sense. For the style-hounds, the correct form for the proposed blurb here is "The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge announce..." AlexTiefling (talk) 23:58, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Follow-up: |This announcement shows that the necessary constitutional change is imminent. When it actually occurs, we should run with that, and mention the expected heir, perhaps, when we do. AlexTiefling (talk) 16:29, 4 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose This is not a birth, and as such there is no heir yet. Succession and familial matters are not in contention.  Nonnews.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.188.8.27 (talk) 07:24, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose Unless we can get another Bank Holiday out of the Germans.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 08:10, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose This and oppose the birth. Would we support it if it was the Saudi royal family? I doubt it, and the Saudi royal family actually run the affairs of that country. I don't think we need it. Vegemighty (talk) 10:16, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose the birth??? I hope the baby won't care! --RJFF (talk) 12:11, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I also oppose the posting birth, and I hope I remember that argument in <9 months. If you actually mean "oppose the birth", well I don't have anything personal against the royals. Let them breed if they wish. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:58, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The Saudis don't have a line of succession beyond the next immediate successor, because it's not strictly hereditary. But we definitely cover changes to the line of succession nonetheless. -LtNOWIS (talk) 04:30, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose – my position is similar to AlexTiefling. This is a definite no-no, while the birth itself would be a close call, following lengthy debate. —WFC— FL wishlist 11:01, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. non-event. Kaldari (talk) 18:34, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted] Kuwaiti parliamentary election, December 2012

 * Comment - Both that blurb, and the article as it currently stands, seem to me to be heavily POV. We'd need to report what the results were, and then the boycott as an additional part. LukeSurlt c 08:41, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose "Boycotting parties get no votes" is a sort of "dog bites man" headline.130.188.8.27 (talk) 10:29, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - Replace the blurb with "Kuwaiti parliamentary elections held amidst boycott by opposition parties in the country" or something similar. --Droodkin (talk) 16:58, 3 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I changed the blurp now. --<font face="Old English Text MT"><font size="3" color="Black">Wüstenfuchs 18:18, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * comment nno idea why the ITNR info is not showing up in the nm. Someone please fixLihaas (talk) 19:08, 3 December 2012 (UTC)


 * The ITNR field was specified twice in the template use, the second time with no entry. LukeSurlt c 20:11, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment. The results of the election are ITNR. If our blurb is going to focus on the fact that it happened and the fact that there was a boycott, that's just a regular ITN vote. Too nitpicky? Formerip (talk) 20:15, 3 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support An election in a sovereign nation, thus ITNR. - Presidentman talk · contribs Random Picture of the Day (Talkback) 21:59, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Ready- Update sufficient per criteria.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 01:07, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Changing my vote to Support. Grammar NPOV in the article has been addressed.  I've also modified the blurb to sound more natural.
 * Posted -- Jayron  32  12:51, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment. Its seems that Kuwait has parliamentary groupings, but does not have political parties. Formerip (talk) 20:15, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

[Posted] Slovenian presidential election, 2012

 * Ready- Update barely meets requirements, but I'm sure it will expand exponentially once international reactions come out. Article is updated, ITN/R handles consensus.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 21:23, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support agree this is ready and should be posted. μηδείς (talk) 22:15, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Posted --  tariq abjotu  23:05, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Recent death: Jovan Belcher

 * Because I think there are several good reasons why this hasn't been nominated. We don't put run of the mill murder-suicides on the front page, and we would not have posted this had he been in a car accident.  I stand opposed, although less to this than that of Mrs.'s Murdoch's. μηδείς (talk) 20:44, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I have a hard time seeing how any murder-suicide can be "run of the mill". I didn't expect this to be posted, but I do think that the tie ins with head trauma made it somewhat noteworthy, even if this case turns out to have no relation to Dave Duerson or Junior Seau. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:52, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The recent deaths ticker is for mentioning the passing of people noted for their lifetime achievements, rather than people whose deaths have been in the news. Formerip (talk) 20:46, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That seems counterintuitive. Someone who is in the news isn't "in the news"? – Muboshgu (talk) 20:53, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Right this very minute, thousands of people are in the news. Formerip (talk) 21:01, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

@ Muboshgu, So, if I were to say "it's a run-of-the-mill murder-suicide, as opposed to a celebrity murder-suicide", you wouldn't understand me? We generally have a policy against articles for criminals when only their crime makes them notable. At most this sixth-round draft pick was stubworthy before the crime. The equation is: postworthiness = readership-interest x article-quality. In this case the small encyclopedic quality of the article mitigates against posting, bigtime. μηδείς (talk) 21:03, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose Very minor personality, and this is our obits column. His death gained media attention (as the death of a soldier or a murder victim might gain media attention), but that does not merit main page attention for his biog.  Go back a couple of months, and his page hits were at 20-30 a day: not notable.  Kevin McE (talk) 21:25, 5 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I think it's too late for this particular nomination, but there's no harm in discussing it for future reference. This may seem counterintuitive, but I think this would have been a better candidate for a full blurb rather than a recent death nomination. The death itself isn't that notable: Belcher doesn't come close to Dave Brubeck or Joseph Murray in terms of career achievement or overall notability, and it seems like an active NFL player dies almost every year. But the circumstances surrounding his death (in particular, committing suicide in the parking lot of his home stadium, in front of his coach and general manager) are pretty unusual, maybe even unprecedented. I briefly considered nominating it, but I was reluctant because of the tabloid nature of the story. Although it is undoubtedly in the news, I think it is more of a grim curiosity than anything else. --Bongwarrior (talk) 21:44, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support A very unusual murder suicide of a prominent athlete. I'm not sure how Medeis can support the gangland assassination of a thug and former boxer like Camacho, and then oppose this tragedy. --IP98 (talk) 22:33, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Because Camacho was very notable BEFORE his death, and I made that quite clear with my oppose vote above. Camacho's article was at well above 5,000 bytes before he was murdered. μηδείς (talk) 22:58, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * PS, Your notion that murdered drug users are somehow more evil than murderers themselves is an interesting one. I await your doctoral dissertation on that one. μηδείς (talk) 23:00, 5 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Weak Support Bongwarrior sums my feelings here. I thought of nominating this but I backed off in the last minute thinking WP:SNOW as tabloid fodder, and Junior Seau death not being nominated but there is more to this case which makes it unusual. Professional athletes don't just "snap" without warning and become a murderer and then commit suicide in front of his squad' major personnel. The death is extremely notable, unusual, and controversial and has been front page news (here in the U.S at least) for nearly a week now because of the sensitive nature of this case. It came at a time that the NFL (which is arguably the most popular professional sports league in the U.S) is embroiled in controversy because of their handling of concussions over the years and some high profile suicides of former athletes, and sparked a discussion on gun control laws . We aren't talking about a backup, but a key starter for the Chiefs, despite the lack of name recognition. This tragedy isn't going to die off anytime soon with the media coverage it is getting. Secret account 06:57, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

North Korean unicorn

 * Strong oppose. Assuming this is a serious nomination, we shouldn't take much stock in the "news" from North Korea's propaganda outlets. 331dot (talk) 02:48, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose and speedy close. Joke nomination. Funny story, but not newsworthy. Might qualify for a DYK article.-- xanchester  (t)  07:19, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * DYK best place for it, but it needs creation first. Lihaas (talk) 09:47, 1 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment to the nominator: ITN does not post tabloid-style stories. Verifiability also comes into play with a story like this as well. Best,  Spencer T♦ C 10:14, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Ukraine win Junior Eurovision Song Contest 2012
Nominator's comment This deserves to be on the main page. It is already on current events.--Lucky102 (talk) 21:54, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose. The result of a song or singing competition doesn't seem like an important enough event to include in ITN, though if this competition carries some sort of significance that I am missing, I would be willing to reevaluate my feelings. (Is this equivalent to the Olympics? Academy Awards? Has the Senior version been on ITN?) I'm not sure, but I don't recall American Idol or "X-nation"-s Got Talent" winners being on ITN.  Additionally, not every current event is ITN worthy. 331dot (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 23:07, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The Eurovision Song Contest, the real one held in May, is on ITN/R and is posted annually. So the idea that a singing competition can't be suitable for ITN seems contrary to actual practice. Maybe this one isn't suitable, but singing events are not prima facie unacceptable. --  tariq abjotu  23:13, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I didn't mean to suggest that I thought singing competitions were never acceptable(though I now see how one could think so); I just was questioning whether this particular one was important enough to do so. 331dot (talk) 23:18, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose- The real one is annual, which is plenty fine. We rarely post junior sports tournaments, so I don't think this belongs either.  B zw ee bl  (talk • contribs) 00:18, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
 * weak support - still major singing contest for children. Perhaps unique for uniting so many countries. I dont know if similar contest/singing pageants are held anywhere else in the world that have as many participants from several countries.--BabbaQ (talk) 00:20, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
 * If considered seriously for posting then an article on the winner and her song is needed.--BabbaQ (talk) 00:21, 2 December 2012 (UTC)


 * So the only countries participating to the west of the Oder-Neisse line are Netherlands and Belgium? zzzz – H T  D  02:55, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose as per Bzweebl. LukeSurlt c 13:01, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose as per Bzweebl. Prestonmag (talk) 19:35, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose In agreement with the above. There's a certain...maybe not "kudos"....to the mainstream Eurovision which makes its place on ITN/R understandable. The Junior version hasn't lived up to the reputation of its parent, and as has been noticed, there's a drought of Western European countries which further reduces its credibility. doktorb wordsdeeds 11:46, 3 December 2012 (UTC)