Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates/July 2013

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[Closed] New ant species

 * Support if the article is updated. Gamaliel  ( talk ) 01:39, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * What's notable about this? Nergaal (talk) 06:17, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Ant seems too non-specific an article. Considering there are 12,500 classified species of ant it would be misplaced to include in that article a substantial update about the discovery of 33. --LukeSurlt c 07:31, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Support-Pending compliance with LukeSurl's suggestion. QatarStarsLeague (talk) 15:39, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose, According to this NPR article on this non-event, "He's just published two papers describing 33 new species of ants, bringing his personal "new species" total to 131. Longino says that's actually average among entomologists. "I do OK," he says, noting that some scientists have discovered thousands". The nominator needs to stop being gulled by press releases. Abductive  (reasoning) 16:02, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose based on comments by LukeSurl and Abductive. Will support if it is linked to a reasonable update in some subarticle.  Gamaliel  ( talk ) 18:18, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * weak Oppose - for now per lukesurl. --BabbaQ (talk) 19:21, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose - new insects are extremely common (some estimate 90% of living species are not named yet). 33 at once is proabbly rare, but an appropriate update on the 33 as a group seems unlikely.  --ThaddeusB (talk) 04:16, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

RD: Eileen Brennan

 * Support. Long career with much recognition would suggest that she is notable in her field. 331dot (talk) 21:17, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose The question is not whether she was notable in her field; she undoubtedly was (she wouldn't qualify for an article otherwise). The question is whether she was widely recognised as a very important figure in her field. Looking at the news articles on her death and her WP article, I don't see any reason to think that she was. She didn't win any major awards. The articles on her death don't describe any great importance or impact that she had. They basically describe her as a moderately well-known actor with a long career. While praising her ability, they don't describe her as being very important or indicate any particular impact that she had. I fear that we are too ready to post actors who may be quite well-known (at least in their home country), but don't meet the death criteria. She may have been an important figure in the field of cinema, but does she really qualify as a very important one? Neljack (talk) 21:30, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * As far as I am aware, Glenn Close is the only other actress to have won an Obie, a Golden Globe and an Emmy. Brennan wasn't a shockingly beautiful lead, which seems to be the criterion you are suggesting for winning actresses.  But she had roles created for her (Helly Dolly) Private Benjamin (tv), and was specifically sought out for roles such as Last Picture Show up to Cheeper by the Dozen.  That seems to meet RD requirements. μηδείς (talk) 21:42, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * (to Netjack) A Golden Globe and an Emmy are not "major" awards? Further, the great majority of actors go their entire careers without even being nominated for such awards. 331dot (talk) 22:44, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I see the Golden Globe is for Best Actress, not Best Supporting Actress (as I had thought), so I guess that qualifies as a major award. But I stand by my point that there is no evidence that she was widely regarded as a very important figure in her field. The fact that the great majority of actors never get nominated for such awards is irrelevant: the great majority of actors don't qualify for Recent Deaths either. Finally, since I have no idea what she looked like, I certainly didn't take her appearance into account (and it would be utterly inappropriate to do so). Neljack (talk) 23:01, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That's exactly the point--since an editor has no idea what a celebrated vintage actress looks like she couldn't possibly deserve recognition. We need a little more scope here than just voting for our own recent and local interests. μηδείς (talk) 23:16, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you misunderstand me. I didn't dismiss her because I hadn't heard of her - I'm perfectly aware that I am not very knowledgeable about TV and cinema, so I don't assume that actors I haven't heard of don't qualify. I looked at the article and news pieces and then made a decision. Neljack (talk) 23:33, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * For better or worse, being pretty is part of what makes actresses successful, and it's embedded in our criteria. If we are going by awards, it's 23 years, for example, since the Best Actress Oscar was won by someone who didn't have a tendency to make people dribble. Unfortunately, having been sought out for roles doesn't hit the right buttons. Picket Hollywood, by all means. Formerip (talk) 23:52, 31 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose per Netjack.--Johnsemlak (talk) 21:54, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Netjack. Gamaliel  ( talk ) 01:40, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose what Neljack said, on the other hand she is much better candidate than that glee bloke was. SeraV (talk) 17:47, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * But not, as we hear above, as pretty or as non-American. μηδείς (talk) 01:03, 2 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Support in spirit an an iconic, recognizable, decorated actress with a very long career; though I note that this will likely age out before it gets enough support for RD. Still, I think she merits inclusion.  -- Jayron  32  02:11, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Thomas Quick acquitted of serial murders

 * Comment - article could use some work in addition to updating. --ThaddeusB-public (talk) 16:04, 31 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose. Doesn't seem significant enough.  Gamaliel  ( talk ) 01:41, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Not American or British enough is what you really are saying. Cheers.--BabbaQ (talk) 12:41, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, maybe if this guy was from some country I've heard of like France or Europe or The Iraq I would vote support. Gamaliel  ( talk ) 18:23, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * You just made your !vote nul and void as natonality is not a reason to either oppose or support.--BabbaQ (talk) 19:19, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, must be a slow news day in the important countries. But you must have heard of it, it's the home of that famous tennis star?! Martinevans123 (talk) 22:07, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, that place! My favorite cooking show host is from there.  Gamaliel  ( talk ) 03:06, 2 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose per BabbaQ, not American or British enough. μηδείς (talk) 13:33, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * For those not editing, there is a hidden comment in the above saying it's not notable since it's an aquittal. Medeis' form of humour, I guess.Fgf10 (talk) 15:07, 1 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Ofocurse an acquittal is notable dear Medeis. Something is not however not notable because of its origin country.--BabbaQ (talk) 15:03, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Not worth updating either, apparently. μηδείς (talk) 01:08, 2 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Support per the Guardian. Response to the hidden comment above: It is a notable acquittal; acquittals are not inherently unnotable. International implications as the murders were not limited to Sweden. 85.167.110.98 (talk) 13:52, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Major crime story, regardless of country of origin. Fgf10 (talk) 15:07, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Support I argue that this is much more notable than his conviction ever was, since this means there is obviously something wrong with swedish justice system. SeraV (talk) 17:46, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * For sure. If they had executed this guy as justice demands, the whole issue of appeals would never have come up. Formerip (talk) 18:02, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah my point was, that he was sentenced without any actual proof expect for his confessions. You think justice have worked just fine if someone is found not guilty after 20 years in jail/psychiatric confinement? SeraV (talk) 18:21, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you mean "there was obviously something wrong with swedish justice system"? Evidently it is currently working fine, by admitting the grave errors in these cases. 85.167.110.98 (talk) 18:43, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Alright, fair enough. SeraV (talk) 18:52, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Given the circumstances, I don't see anything here that couldn't have happened anywhere in the world (except, maybe, the opportunity of re-trying the cases). Formerip (talk) 21:52, 1 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Support as nominator. even though it is not needed. In my opinion this is a case that is exactly right for mention at ITN.--BabbaQ (talk) 19:14, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose, his exoneration has actually been occurring piecemeal over the last several months. Abductive  (reasoning) 19:44, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually news about these sorts of things should not be mentioned at ITN until completely delt with. Like now, that is why it should be mentioned now and not several months ago now that it is done and complete and Quick is kind of historic.--BabbaQ (talk) 19:47, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd like there to be secondary sources on this guy. Right now it's all newspapers (primary sources). Is there a documentary or book on his case? Abductive  (reasoning) 21:05, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * If you read the article and look at the image you will get the answer :)--BabbaQ (talk) 22:38, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Newspapers are secondary sources and are absolutely fine, with all the normal caveats. Although there isn't much sourcing in our article altogether, and parts of it tell a slightly different story to what is in the Guardian article. Formerip (talk) 21:52, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * You say that newspapers are absolutely fine, but then say that there are discrepancies between the sources in the article. Abductive  (reasoning) 19:39, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
 * There is book, Thomas Quick: The Making of a Serial Killer, which is pointed out and linked in that guardian article about him. SeraV (talk) 21:33, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Guess they'll all have to be pulped now. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:09, 1 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Support Notable enough, regardless of location. How many people convicted as serial killers go on to be acquitted? Paul MacDermott (talk) 23:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment. Is anyone planning on updating the article? Formerip (talk) 01:07, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Hanumangarh bus crash

 * WP does not post thins because they are tragic. If its notable, then yes that's for ITNC to decide. As such this is not in the news or notable (what with Telangana taking the headlines)Lihaas (talk) 21:29, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * This IS in the news. No one said both this event and Telanaga can not be posted. Andise1 (talk), —Preceding undated comment added 21:43, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Its not the news. Im watching it as I write. NDTV, CNN-IBN, TIMES NOW...I didn't even hear of this till I came to ITNC and ive been watching tv for hours. oh! and people said the u.s. media was bad... Lihaas (talk) 21:59, 30 July 2013 (UTC)


 * All due respect to the dead children, but this is not wikicrashia, and these nominations are getting to the point we need a ban on the topic of all traffic accidents. In The News is the name of the section, not the sole criterion for things being posted. μηδείς (talk) 02:43, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Not significant enough an event to be posted. 331dot (talk) 02:47, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I oppose a formal "moratorium" on good faith suggestions- discussion is perfectly capable of keeping these from being posted, as it is here. 331dot (talk) 12:34, 31 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose. I think a moratorium on crashes might be in order... doktorb wordsdeeds 10:57, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Sorry, that's not even worth having an article on, let alone an ITN story. Modest Genius talk 12:09, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Moratorium. We need to end our obsession with crashes, even if (or perhaps especially when) children are involved.--WaltCip (talk) 13:35, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * How is the lack of a moratorium hurting us here? This item will not get posted; further such similar suggestions are likely to end up the same way. 331dot (talk) 14:27, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It encourages people to create articles on non-notable traffic accidents to try for the ITN/C, which is against NOTNEWS and NEVENT. --M ASEM  (t) 15:06, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If that's the case, then 1)those grounds can be cited in any ITN discussion and said discussion can be closed; and 2) it should be dealt with at the article creation level. We don't need a formal policy prohibiting any category of suggestions.  That's a very slippery slope to go down. 331dot (talk) 15:14, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with 331dot. The idea of banning certain kinds of nominations is highly unproductive. --ThaddeusB-public (talk) 16:05, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree also.--BabbaQ (talk) 16:59, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeed. No need for any kind of blanket ban. Modest Genius talk 18:37, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I afgree with Masem here. Ive been advocating too. Friviolous articles with no encyclopaedic value other than news stories get added here. We need to review this as ITN is hurting WPp's encyclopaedic outlookLihaas (talk) 18:57, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Again, if something is "frivolous with no encyclopedic value", it it easy to state that on any such nomination and have the discussion closed(should enough people agree). We don't need a policy to do that. 331dot (talk) 21:05, 31 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose and support a crash moratorium. Gamaliel  ( talk ) 01:42, 1 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Memo to User:Gamaliel, User:Lihaas, User talk:331dot, User Talk:Masem, User_talk:Modest Genius, User talk:WaltCip and others - please see doktorb wordsdeeds 05:40, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Telangana

 * Damn you, bmy nomination ;)
 * Anyhoo, the reason I did not nominate this was the government has not approved the creation of Telangana. The Congress Working Committee approved it (and all sources are noting its partisan politics for the election). There is a lot of process left to creating Telangana. Remember in 2009 the INC-led government approved it and backtracked 14 days later after protests. That's a sign enough to wait. I've added all this to the aforementioned page at the new link I added to the blurb. I also added to Indian general election, 2014
 * CNN-IBN now also saying the bill won't be tabled in the monsoon session of parliament, so that means even the proposal for bill, let alone debate (which is more open), is months away.Lihaas (talk) 20:25, 30 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Question. This is obviously massive news, but I'm unsure as to the timing. Do we post now? When the state is formally created? Both times? My question is therefore whether we have posted anything relating to Scottish independence as of yet? I know this is not a direct comparison, but the answer to that question would affect my opinion, and probably other people's too. —WFC— FL wishlist 21:14, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Well nothing had happened yet. Only a ruling party committee had indicated for partisan decisions to create this state (and the reactions indicate this from opposing parties, as well as the media). They have indicated a willingness to propose this to the cabinet/parliament who THEN decide after [ostensibly] non-partisan deliberations which is several months away. As said 4 years ago the same thing happened and was rescinded. The attached WSJ links indicates this saying "Ruling party..."
 * Secondly, no we did not post the decision for the Alba referendum.Lihaas (talk) 21:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that response Lihaas. The Scotland comparison is certainly a factor, but not the only one. There's no doubt that the creation of the new state would be ITN, but even kick-starting the process is a huge political shake-up (in the same way that discovering that the UK might not exist in 2015 was pretty damn big). What I'm trying to decide is whether "being huge" qualifies it for ITN, regardless of what has actually happened. It's a toss-up. —WFC— FL wishlist 21:33, 30 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose When it is actually approved yes, but not until then. Neljack (talk) 21:49, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * comment reworded blurb to indicate it is not Iindia that made the approvalLihaas (talk) 22:12, 30 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Wait until the state/territory actually becomes a state. Nergaal (talk) 22:29, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Wait until final approval of this proposal, which looks like it will be next year. 331dot (talk) 02:34, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Wait until the new state is actually created. -Zanhe (talk) 09:42, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: the blurb needs to explain what on Earth Telangana is. 'a new state of India' or similar would help. Modest Genius talk 12:12, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Having read a bit more, we should wait until this is formally and finally approved (and possibly until it actually happens). Modest Genius talk 12:15, 31 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose. Big news, but this particular step isn't yet.  Gamaliel  ( talk ) 01:42, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Bradley Manning verdict

 * oppose the more notable part would have been his treason charges. This is more straightforward. Perhaps wait to see his punishment.Lihaas (talk) 18:28, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - The verdict, including acquittal on "aiding the enemy" (which is believe was the treason charge) is a significant development in a long-simmering news story. When the sentence is announced, the ITN blurb can be updated. I prefer a blurb that clarifies what he did, like: Bradley Manning is acquitted of aiding the enemy but convicted of other charges related to giving classified documents to WikiLeaks --Orlady (talk) 19:25, 30 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose No traitors on the frontpage, please.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 19:32, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Acquitted. Your emotional response can be taken as a reason to post. Abductive  (reasoning) 19:36, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No, it cant be taken as a support. Using that logic the IP below "there shouldn't be any debate, it's big news" should be taken as an oppose. Really both should be null and void then, if you wish. Still leaning towards consensus. Just needs an updateLihaas (talk) 20:19, 30 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support the story – this is widely accepted by those on both sides as being one of the biggest intelligence leaks in history. I think leading with acquitted and bold linking it might come across as a bit one-sided though. We need to incorporate both the conviction and the aquittal, so I would suggest leading with one, and then bold-linking the second. Admittedly not the way we normally do things (we normally bold link at the first opportunity), but in this instance I think trying to maintain NPOV trumps convention. —WFC— FL wishlist 19:47, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Alternatively, we could go with Bradley Manning is acquitted of aiding the enemy but convicted of other charges. —WFC— FL wishlist 19:55, 30 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - there shouldn't be any debate, it's big news 24.136.136.91 (talk) 19:53, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support I hope any votes based on whether the user approves or disapproves of Manning will be disregarded. Regardless of what one thinks of his actions, this has been a big story and the significance of the leaks can hardly be doubted. I suggest that we add something like "by a US court-martial", as we usually indicate the court or at the least the country when posting about court cases. Neljack (talk) 21:47, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, very significant. For months the verdict has been subject for discussions and predictions. It has also influential consequences that may also affect Julian Assange. In short not an ordinary eventEgeymi (talk) 22:40, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, but think we should post after the sentencing. Formerip (talk) 22:56, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support but yes wait for sentencing. SeraV (talk) 23:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Wait for the sentencing and the blurb should be along the lines of "Bradley Manning is sentenced to xyz after being convicted for leaking US govenment documents to Wikileaks".  LGA talk  edits   23:53, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose found guilty of theft is not exactly newsworthy. Only partisans care here, and we don't do partisan, do we? μηδείς (talk) 00:00, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Personally what is newsworthy here is how USA and Obama administration treats their whistleblowers, Manning is not an isolated case. SeraV (talk) 05:53, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * This is slightly different to putting a bag of sweets in your coat pocket Medeis. —WFC— FL wishlist 23:42, 31 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support. Verdict in a notable case followed worldwide(due to the Wikileaks association).  Not wanting "traitors" on ITN is an invalid reason to oppose; we don't base what is posted on judgments about what he is(some would disagree); we merely post what factually happened to him.  I believe he was never actually charged with "treason", which has a specific meaning per the US Constitution. 331dot (talk) 02:39, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * He's not a traitor, he's a thief. I don't think we normally post thieves, do we? μηδείς (talk) 02:46, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we don't normally post thieves, but I think it depends on what is stolen. Would we post a hypothetical theft of the Mona Lisa? Probably. Would we post the theft of a few pieces of art from my local museum not created by anyone with worldwide fame? Probably not. In this case, he stole hundreds of thousands of documents with as yet undetermined consequences and damage to a large nation. 331dot (talk) 02:51, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Or maybe he saved this nation... Abductive  (reasoning) 05:02, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * ....which is equally as invalid an argument as saying he is a traitor as that is a political view. It is a fact he was convicted of stealing and releasing the information, thus he is a thief, regardless of how one views his actions. 331dot (talk) 11:11, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * He wasn't charged with theft and his crimes don't meet the normal definition of the theft (no intention to permanently deprive). Just sayin'. Formerip (talk) 10:12, 1 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment - update is currently insufficient. --ThaddeusB (talk) 02:49, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - Editors' personal political views should carry zero weight. This is a huge story of worldwide interest and certainly worthy of an ITN blurb. Jus  da  fax   05:35, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - the trial has been intensely followed by media worldwide. The acquittal of the main charge is highly significant and makes front page news everywhere. -Zanhe (talk) 09:39, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Significant and notable, reported around the world and has continued importance in a number of fields. doktorb wordsdeeds 11:00, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - when/if he gets a prison sentence.--BabbaQ (talk) 11:02, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, and I don't mind if we post now or when sentenced (just not both). The blurb should definitely mention the Wikileaks connection, as not every reader will recognise his name. Modest Genius talk 12:17, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support when sentenced Patar knight - chat/contributions 18:24, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Huge story with world implications.  Gamaliel  ( talk ) 01:43, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * This article needs more information on the verdict before it will be suitable for posting. --Orlady (talk) 20:26, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * This will probably need to be posted after sentencing. At the moment it is only possible to expand upon the verdict using one side of the story. The judge's detailed written rationale for the convicions and sentence, coupled with the government's response and the resultant debate, will enable us to present a more balanced view. At the moment, almost anything that is added to what is currently there is being removed on POV grounds. —WFC— FL wishlist 23:18, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] New Pakistan president

 * A change in head of state is ITNR. 331dot (talk) 12:15, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * comment the article is sort of cites with various tags, I have thus added the orange tag on top to answer these. (and the missing bits are important section to the whole process)Lihaas (talk) 18:28, 30 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment: I removed the last remaining orange-level tag as I think it's good enough. ITNR so no need to support. Can someone take a look, decide if they agree with me, and mark [ready] if so? Modest Genius talk 12:21, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Referencing is mediocre at best (see multiple ). Update is woefully insufficient - I would expect 2-3 paragraphs on the results + reactions\implications, not one sentence and a chart.  --ThaddeusB-public (talk) 16:08, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support and Updating It is an important candidate for ITN, I would like to see the article expanded further. I would be glad to help. Fai  zan  23:40, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * ✅ The article has been updated, expanded, and fixed. Minor copy-edits have also been made, and the references have been fixed too. The article should be posted there at ITN. Nominated by Gfosankar, updated by Fai  zan  9:29 am, Today (UTC+5)


 * Posted as the main concerns of sourcing is taken care of and it is a ITNR but please add a paragraph or two about any reactions or implications. Secret account 04:38, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok sure, I was the updater, and I have not got credit yet. Secret! I mistakenly undid my own edit here, causing the confusion. Can it be fixed? Fai  zan  06:05, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Secret, the section about "Implications" has been added with a para. But as they were just the presidential elections and not the parliamentry, they did not get any significant reaction or an "aftermath". Fai  zan  13:54, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] RD: Ilya Segalovich

 * There should ideally be five sentences in the death section, and if he is more important than just the co-founder of a search engine it shouldn't be too hard to find relevant two sentences of relevant praise of his work. It's kind of hard to see his importance given the size of the article.  Perhaps more can be translated from the Russian? μηδείς (talk) 01:13, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The Russian article is also very short.--Johnsemlak (talk) 02:07, 30 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose I don't know where all this RD noms are coming from. The proposal that lead to the deaths ticker does not allow for nominations specifically as an RD item.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.112.68.240 (talk) 17:23, 30 July 2013 (UTC)


 * If you want to oppose this nomination, please come up with a valid reason - claiming recent deaths can't be nominated specifically for RD is nonsense. --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:29, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The fact that this is out of process is very much a valid reason. Re-read the original proposal.  If you don't like it then propose changing it but policy does not change according to what you want it to say. The RD listing iwas intended as a halfway house for noms that fail to get a full feature.  Here we have a suggestion that EVEN THE NOMINATOR does not think warrants that.  Why should it be considered for that back-up option when even s/he has so little faith in it? 87.112.68.240 (talk) 17:42, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You'll need to link to where you are getting this. The RfC under which RD was proposed specifically offered he alternative of nominations for either full blurbs or ticker listings, that's the way it has been done since the first RD entry, and the template reflects this clearly. μηδείς (talk) 17:52, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * (re: 87.112) Um, RD is the default for 95%+ of all deaths and has been since inception. Full blurbs are not given for nearly anyone.  It is not a "half way" compromise, but rather the normal way to list deaths.  Again, come up with a VALID reason to oppose or drop it.  (Also, Wikipedia policies are descriptive, not prescriptive.  If there was a conflict between RD policy and this nomination, which there is not, it would be because the  policy that is out of date.  This nomination is perfectly ordinary and not the least be invalid.) --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:50, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * From :
 * The nomination process would (unless it is found necessary to change at a later date) remain part of the ITN nominating process, with the added provision
 * ie it is an additional option may use, not an alternative for nominators to use. The motion then goes on to explain in detail as to how votes are to be counted which is premised on there being three options.  That voting process was very hotly debated so you can't wave it aside when it is inconvenient.  If there is no nomination for a blurb there is no nom for RD either.  If the rule has been habitually ignored that does not alter the rule - the argument "this is the way we have done it" is itself not a valid one. 87.112.68.240 (talk) 19:21, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That a blurb suggestion is required is entirely your novel interpretation of the discussion, not something that was discussed by even one person. The distinction you are trying to make between "additional option" and "alternate option" is nonsensical. Our actual policy says nothing like requiring a blurb suggestion - it only says most deaths are listed only on RD.  It is down right silly to mandate people supply a blurb suggestion when they well know the death is of RD (not full-blurb) level.  Finally, and most importantly if you think Wikipedia policy works like a law system where laws are passed and then carried out, you are very much mistaken.  Our policy is decided by practice, not the other way around.  --ThaddeusB (talk) 20:03, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree that it is absurd to see a blurb when nom'd ONLY for RD.
 * Anyhoo, close this side discussion to move to the tlajk page and discuss the nom?Lihaas (talk) 20:21, 30 July 2013 (UTC)


 * IP 87's statement is manifestly false. It hardly makes sense to hat the statements pointing that out while leaving his second sentence--the oppose in the first sentence should be enough. μηδείς (talk) 00:03, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose, at least for the moment. His significance hasn't been demonstrated - was he really one of the most important internet businessmen / pioneers? If he just co-founded a Russian search engine and nothing else, that isn't enough to meet the criteria as far as I'm concerned. Modest Genius talk 12:28, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The main search enginge in the country. Ala googleLihaas (talk) 19:05, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, sort of. Google is popular worldwide. But that aside, I so no evidence that he made substantial innovations or was an outstandingly significant figure in internet commerce. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 11:50, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Libyan assassination
Who is bombing whom? μηδείς (talk) 00:04, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Its on the page as factional fighting. In this case Islamists vs. secularists/liberal.Lihaas (talk) 00:14, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

National capital of where? Formerip (talk) 00:22, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That was in the section title ;)Lihaas (talk) 00:30, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * So does the section need wikilinking within the blurb? Formerip (talk) 00:36, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Not sure what you mean, but I hasd since added it to the blurb/Lihaas (talk) 00:53, 30 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Reading the article you get the impression the assassination and bombings are attacks by the islamists. The blurb doesn't convey that.  It is like when you read "150 dead in religious violence in Nigeria" in a headline and then the article says one suicide bomber bomber killed 149 Christian churchgoers.  The facts and the blurb should be clearer. μηδείς (talk) 01:18, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Tunisia update

 * The general election will be ITNR when it occurs, but I don't think the mere scheduling of the election is ITN worthy. I'm withholding a formal oppose opinion as I don't know what precedent is in this area; are the calling of general elections in other countries posted(such as the UK and Canada where they do not necessarily occur on a regular basis)? 331dot (talk) 23:55, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Weve done it when its not a refular scheduled election. Likewise this was affirmed after the protests and the recent chaos.Lihaas (talk) 00:13, 30 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose ITN deals with after the election, not before doktorb wordsdeeds 06:02, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * We have posted unusual circumstances calling for electionsLihaas (talk) 09:14, 30 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose. We already posted the assassination, and we will post the election when it happens. No need for a third appearance. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 12:29, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Its only a bump/blurb update, not a third postingLihaas (talk) 19:03, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Well them maybe you should have said that in the nomination? I support updating the wording (without the second bold link), but oppose bumping it. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 19:09, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Uumm, I did mention it as only an update. See above.v.Lihaas (talk) 21:03, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Jewelry stolen in Cannes
– HonorTheKing (talk) 18:05, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose, when the last one was nominated, (Brussels Airport diamond heist), assurances were given that it was special, rare and large. So it was posted. Now later the same givlomh year we are treated to another robbery. No thank you. Abductive  (reasoning) 05:25, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose As above. doktorb wordsdeeds 06:35, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose, I think it is not significant as Abductive expalined. Egeymi (talk) 07:11, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose: A bunch of gems get stolen from a bunch of rich people who had crap security. Not really important news in the grand scheme of things. --Somchai Sun (talk) 09:06, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Pile on oppose per the reasons given. 331dot (talk) 11:34, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose the total is now $136 Million. Sounds like poor people care more for their property than do the rich.  Revisit if they catch Cary Grant or David Niven. μηδείς (talk) 16:15, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Opppose Time's up on this one. If they catch Leonardo I'll consider changing my mind.  The Rambling Man (talk) 17:30, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment We should close this and open a new one, as now the reports say it is worth 136 million dollar, and not 53, making it the largest heist in history. It is now called the "heist of the century", passing Antwerp Diamond Heist (100million) and Schiphol Airport diamond heist (118m). Ref
 * opposed to relisting without new development. These will be numbers reported to insurers for reimbursement, not costs paid. μηδείς (talk) 19:08, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Peace talks

 * Comment Not wishing to poke fate with a large pointy stick on this, lets actually wait until there is something to announce, from my reading of the source all that has been agreed is that both sides will talk about talking.  LGA <sub style="color:#8B0000;">talk <sup style="margin-left:-4ex"> edits   02:50, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support My initial thought was to oppose on the basis that nothing has actually happened yet, but on reflection I think the resumption of peace talks is sufficiently significant news in itself. No talks have occurred for several years, the whole process seemed stalled, and a great deal of diplomatic energy has gone into getting them to resume. The news is getting widespread international coverage too. Neljack (talk) 03:54, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support as per Neljack. --LukeSurlt c 08:39, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support: Significant, notable that it's happening in the first place again. --Somchai Sun (talk) 09:11, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per reasons given. 331dot (talk) 12:04, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose This is the status quo: talks between Israel and Palestine start and stop. If there's actual progress made, that'll be news. – Muboshgu (talk) 13:17, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose for now As above. Talks mean nothing without action, if I can say that without sounding like a Facebook meme. doktorb wordsdeeds 14:56, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * oppose by precedence we post results (and this will likely yield no tmuch but more promises to talk)Lihaas (talk) 15:04, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Normally that might be true, but in the context of the overall situation this is a significant development, as they haven't even agreed to talk about talking in years. 331dot (talk) 15:40, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. weal oppose insteadLihaas (talk) 22:08, 29 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose - The talks might just fail again.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 15:39, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Whether the talks fail or succeed is not the point; they haven't even agreed to talk about talking in years. 331dot (talk) 15:40, 29 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose peace talks conclude would be notable. μηδείς (talk) 16:12, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. The two sides doing anything other than attacking one another is big news in itself. —WFC— FL wishlist 17:22, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - Agree that this a ITN-worthy blurb, as the two sides have not talked in years. Jus  da  fax   04:19, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose and it's a shame too. From all I've heard and read, there will be nothing significant to come from this, as Muboshgu notes, this on-off-on-off talkie-no-talkie relationship has been (and will be) the norm for some time. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:55, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - neither the linked article section, nor the new standalone article are of sufficient quality to post, IMO. --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:54, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per Neljack SeraV (talk) 23:21, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - come on, this must be the atleast 10th time that the peace process breaks down and starts again. And with the palestinian president saying that Israel must leave all occupied territory it means this process is dead before it even started. The day when the peace process brings true peace then perhaps.--BabbaQ (talk) 23:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps? It should then be highlighted with colours all over. Weve got time to think hot to present it..Lihaas (talk) 23:46, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] RD: Virginia E. Johnson

 * Support Certainly seems to qualify as a very important figure in her field. Neljack (talk) 03:43, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No Brainer so long as it's updated. μηδείς (talk) 03:53, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, half of Masters and Johnson. Abductive  (reasoning) 05:27, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Death was July 24. --LukeSurlt c 08:31, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * When was it reported? Abductive  (reasoning) 14:20, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - RD, Seems notable in her field. --Somchai Sun (talk) 09:12, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - undeniably important and historic woman. Jus  da  fax   10:40, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Meets death criteria for her impact with Masters. – Muboshgu (talk) 13:20, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - overall referencing is weak; death update is very insufficient. --ThaddeusB (talk) 14:14, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose as the article is Start class level and completely inadequate to be linked to the main page. RD shouldn't exist to link to pages with minimal information.--Johnsemlak (talk) 02:33, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The article hardly has minimal information, and the ITN requirement is it be updated. not FA class (not that it's updated). Keep in mind she's neither recently famous, a football player, nor a video game.  So the size of her article at wikipedia means nothing. μηδείς (talk) 03:04, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * We frequently reject articles based on article quality.--Johnsemlak (talk) 03:13, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Tagged articles. There's nothing wrong with this one per se. μηδείς (talk) 03:44, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * And we reject articles that are minimal. RD should highlight quality articles of biographies of RDs.  Highlighting quality content on WP is the primary aim of ITN, so article quality matters.--Johnsemlak (talk) 03:55, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Just go ahead and link to such a policy of only highlighting premiere biographies if it exists. μηδείς (talk) 04:45, 30 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Stale? The NYT published her death on the 25th. μηδείς (talk) 03:09, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Not yet. We have 2 items on the template that are July 21/22.  Spencer T♦ C 04:30, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - This could be posted as it has consensus and it is not stale yet. However, it seems that noone has any interest in improving the death update or article in general, so right now it is being disqualified on those grounds. --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:58, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Cambodian general election, 2013

 * Tentative support until references are added. Some sections don't have any. General elections thrice the size of Ireland should be easy ITNR. – H T  D  05:02, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Marking ready since this is an updated ITN/R.  Spencer T♦ C 23:57, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Looks good, posting --ThaddeusB (talk) 00:24, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] 2013 CONCACAF Gold Cup
Oppose because you spoiled the final for me :). Otherwise, this was a B-team tournament for all the top teams in Concacaf.  I watched many of the matches in the tournament.  Concacaf teams take this tournament more seriously in the year after the World Cup when the winner qualifies for the Confederations Cup.--Johnsemlak (talk) 23:39, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment. These types of competitions being nominated has been controversial in the past, as this is not the top level of competition; it has also been suggested in the past that the aforementioned similar tournaments be removed from ITNR. 331dot (talk) 23:42, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * On the flip side some people would argue that as football is the most popular sport in teh world it deserves more coverage on ITN. I'm fine with posting the Copa America and the CAF; not sure about the Asian Cup.  However, given that this isn't really a 'top level' competition in North America, I really think it doesn't come close.  BTW the Copa Libertadores just finished which is ITNR and it wssn't nominated but its' more notable than this.--Johnsemlak (talk) 23:46, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It's "not really" the top level for North America from a US perspective, since they don't need to exert themselves much, but it very actually the top level from the perspective of, say, Belize, or in the most obvious sense that there is no North American championship at a higher level. Formerip (talk) 00:22, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not just a US perspective. The top 3-4 teams--Mexico, Costa Rica, etc sent weakened squads.  The US didn't have to exert themselves to win it because they never faced a full strength team from of of the major Concacaf teams.--Johnsemlak (talk) 00:40, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I didn't use the word "just", although I am thinking from a Rawlsian perspective. Formerip (talk) 00:46, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose. It's not comparable to the Euros, Copa America etc, because most of the participating nations are minnows and there is not much variation in who wins. Formerip (talk) 00:22, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose I was inclined to support, but then I looked at the articles; given the state of them with relation to MOS issue and the lack of any prose on the actual event, it is nothing more than a results listing I could not support linking from the main page. If those are fixed then would consider a support.  LGA <sub style="color:#8B0000;">talk <sup style="margin-left:-4ex"> edits   02:33, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Opposecertainly no coverage off the sports pages in the US. See comments about importance of mere soccer games below. μηδείς (talk) 03:52, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose I know it's not a major soccer tournament because we won it. – Muboshgu (talk) 13:21, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * +1 204.111.20.10 (talk) 17:05, 29 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose With a few exceptions these were mostly B-squad teams. Outside of Omar Gonzalez, Eddie Johnson and Landon Donovan, even the winning team was mostly B-squad. --12.41.124.5 (talk) 21:32, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] 2013 Italy bus crash

 * Oppose unless death-toll rises significantly or some other notable incident is involved. Tragic, but not encyclopedic. μηδείς (talk) 03:46, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - Yes, it's "just" a bus crash, but we do post them from time to time, and the death toll of this one is significant enough already. This appears to be the second-deadliest traffic accident of 2013 after the Chibombo bus crash, which we posted. --Bongwarrior (talk) 10:50, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak support. I think the argument can be made that the level of casualties isn't enough here, but this story is getting a lot of coverage. This is on the front page of NBC News and CNN as of this moment. 331dot (talk) 12:01, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * oppose 100 deaths in guinea and we don't post that. European ;lives arenot worth more for ITN merit.Lihaas (talk) 15:05, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Who said that they were? If you are referring to this, it appears it was not given the attention requested before posting.  No news sources were provided to indicate its coverage in the news; it was also not a recent event.  It had nothing to do with valuing anyone's life or lives more than anyone else. 331dot (talk) 15:36, 29 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose Tragic accident, but not appropriate for WP to cover as no evidence of long term effects. --M ASEM (t) 15:33, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Same can be said about the last few train crashes we posted... YuMaNuMa Contrib 02:49, 31 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support Will need some more updating, but a large death toll for a road accident and getting extensive international coverage - it was top of the BBC News website, for instance. Neljack (talk) 21:50, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support: unusually high death toll for an accident in a developed country. -Zanhe (talk) 09:34, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] World Youth Day 2013 concludes

 * Oppose A lot of people, but nothing terribly newsworthy happened to report. Lots of people turning up to see and hear the Pope isn't exactly anything new. Neljack (talk) 22:15, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose. While I'm sympathetic to the idea of posting an event involving a immensely large gathering of people(in the millions), this was a gathering of Catholics in a heavily Catholic country to see their spiritual leader.  It would be news if such an event didn ' t draw such a large crowd. 331dot (talk) 22:27, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * What's the difference with that with events such as world cups where there is an immensely large gathering of fans (indeed, this one is a lot of times larger than the largest world cup crowds) in a heavily -crazed country? Those aren't "exactly anything new", to quote the post above this one, either... – H  T  D  10:31, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment It would be kind of nice to have something that isn't a variation of Something horrible happens, causing lots of people to die. --  tariq abjotu  23:49, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Just wait for some sporting event. <span style="font-family: Verdana, monospace;letter-spacing:1px;color:#ECCA61;padding-left:5px;">Beerest355 Talk 01:53, 29 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose unless some other notable related event occurs. On the merits this is probably more important than most sports playoff finals and street protests, but I oppose them too. μηδείς (talk) 03:50, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment I can see the opposers' points. It's too bad this isn't one of the 15 largest gatherings of people in recorded history. Oh, wait, it is. Gentgeen (talk) 06:14, 30 July 2013 (UTC
 * Is that a support vote under the sarcasm? 331dot (talk) 10:58, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Gentgeen is the nominator.  Spencer T♦ C 16:11, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Death toll in Syria passes 100k

 * Oppose it's a horrible war and a horrible milestone, but ultimately these sorts of non-events are arbitrary milestones and are not themselves meaningful. The 99,999th death is no less notable than the 100,000th.  We should report notable events from wars, not meaningless, symbolic, and arbitrary events that coincide with round numbers.  -- Jayron  32  17:51, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The number of casualties shows how deep and devastating the war has become. If we'd report territory changes such as army X took over Y strategic city/town/neighborhood, then we'd have to report back when the other party takes it back as well (the situation is fluid). At least, this is the argument offered to me here.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  18:24, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The article is updated, but there is very little "updated content" for us to showcase. Since this milestone is not connected to any particular event, there is not much more to say about this outside of what is already stated in the blurb. -- Black Falcon (talk) 18:41, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Trivial. What about the 100,000th road death in Mexico? Or the 100,000th cancer death in Germany?  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 18:47, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Is "trivial" really the right word? I'm just wondering. Formerip (talk) 00:43, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose per the reasons given. 331dot (talk) 19:05, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Kuwaiti general election, 2013

 * Support Might want to say "an increased number of seats". Neljack (talk) 04:00, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: this is ITNR so there's no need to support. However, the article is missing essential information: how many seats were on offer, who won them, what was the turnout (both numbers and percentage), did the NDA actually boycott it or not etc. There should really be a results table of some sort (as in the article on the previous election) and ideally an infobox too. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 11:10, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Two days later, no article improvements. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 19:11, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Publicis and Omnicom Group - And then there were two

 * Support - major business story. I remain of the opinion that the correct time to post is the announcement as that is the phase of the merger process that generates the most press coverage. --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:34, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak support. I'm torn between a desire to pander to occasional complaints that we don't post enough business news and an inability to see very much that is interesting about the story. Formerip (talk) 19:35, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * oppose whats the landmark issue.? Its not a famous first.Lihaas (talk) 20:16, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The creation of the world's largest advertising group. --  Ohc  ¡digame!¿que pasa? 03:23, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Since when has being "a famous first" an ITN criteria? 99% of what we post could not honestly be described that way. --ThaddeusB (talk) 05:12, 29 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose of no reader interest, of no encyclopedic import, of no impact except to mid level execs. If I didn't know better (and I do) I'd swear they were paying for this publicity here, lol. μηδείς (talk) 16:09, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Your reasoning makes no sense at all. How do you know there's no reader interest? And how is the merger of two of the largest companies in a major industry of no encyclopedic import? -Zanhe (talk) 20:49, 31 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - per ThaddeusB. Story is significant and ITN-worthy on a number of levels, including the ongoing trend of mergers forming gigantic conglomerates. Roughly equivalent in its field to Coke and Pepsi merging. Opposers reasoning fails to convince. Jus  da  fax   05:45, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - merger of two of the big three advertising companies is highly significant. -Zanhe (talk) 20:49, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Marked ready - support and update are good. I adjusted the blurbs to reflect the fact that it is an agreed upon merger, not a completed merger. --ThaddeusB (talk) 23:15, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted Alt blurb 1 Secret account 01:03, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Mogadishu Turkish embassy bombing

 * Comment The number of fatalities varies from source to source. CNN says 6, Reuters talks about 3, while some report only one dead. -- Ե րևանցի talk  03:51, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That is normal for breaking news. It takes time to sort out the death toll. --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:37, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Attacks on diplomatic facilities are notable. 331dot (talk) 08:42, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose The article was redirected to List of terrorist incidents, July–December 2013. If it's not important to have a standalone article, it probably isn't notable enough.  Spencer T♦ C 14:57, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Spencer. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 11:13, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Miami hostage standoff

 * Oppose it was noted in passing for a few minutes on the BBC homepage, it's just "one of those things" I'm afraid. Perhaps we could have a ticker for US shooting murders....  According to List of school shootings in the United States, there have been 12 shootings in schools alone in the US in 2013 alone.  The Rambling Man (talk) 17:07, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Can you please refrain from soapboxing? --  tariq abjotu  17:09, 27 July 2013 (UTC)


 * What I mean is that if we posted every US gun-crime shooting spree, we'd need a special ticker or something. What part of that is soap-boxing Tariq?  Please explain.  Bloomberg seems to suggest nearly 100 gun deaths per day...  The Rambling Man (talk) 17:14, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There's a difference between "not significant, especially in comparison to other shootings". It's another thing to say "Perhaps we could have a ticker for US shooting murders....", which is obviously a ridiculous suggestion meant to jab at American society. One might argue that it's not that egregious, but I'm particularly sensitive to it given your overt soapboxing about the same topic back in in February 2013. And you didn't help matters with your subsequent statement below. --  tariq abjotu  23:46, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "You can't handle the truth...."! The Rambling Man (talk) 08:54, 28 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose TRM is basically right (and I cannot stand the usual crap about Americans being gun happy). This sort of crime is all too common.  TRM mentions only schools, but this happens with fired officeworkers, in domestic disputes, and with drug dealers on about a biweekly basis.  This case is certainly not encyclopedic in nature. μηδείς (talk) 17:22, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "Americans being gun happy"? I'm going to respect your opinion about not inclusion, but what you just said is offensive. D arth B otto talk•cont 17:33, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No, Medeis said she "couldn't stand the usual crap about Americans being gun happy". I disagree with her on that, there are 88 guns per 100 people in America (like mobile phones), so this kind of incident should be expected.  That's why it's not ITN material really.  How will this impact the future of America, or the world?  It won't.  Is it widely reported outside the US?  It was, but it's yesterday's news already.  In other words, it's de rigeur I'm afraid.  The Rambling Man (talk) 17:51, 27 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Nothing can be done till the AfD is taken care of anyways -- Ashish-g55 17:31, 27 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Weak Oppose - Agree with Medeis, this is tragic but not news when weighed up against all the facts. --Somchai Sun (talk) 18:25, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Any incident of mass murder is shocking, and always worthy of serious discussion. Furthermore, there is no hard-and-fast rule for the posting of mass murders, nor should there be. But if we're talking about incidents of this scale (regardless of whether guns are legal in that country or not), the bar for extraordinary circumstances is generally quite high. The random murder of schoolchildren by someone who was not legally entitled to bear arms is one that we posted not too long ago. Following a family half way across the continent to murder them on a family holiday (with a then unknown motive) was another. I'll leave it to others to draw comparisons between those cases and this one, but it's a disgraceful fact of life that mass murder is too common on this dangerous planet for us to indiscriminately post each instance. —WFC— FL wishlist 19:28, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree with WFC. Every instance is worth discussion.  It doesn't mean to say that most instances are just commonplace and not "in the news".  Facts are facts, and if some editors feel that stating them is "soap boxing" then perhaps they should take a break.  It's true that for every 100 people in the US, there are 88 weapons, it's true that there have been twelve school shootings in the US in 2013, it' true that 900 Americans are shot to death every month.  That's why a story like this, while entirely tragic, is not newsworthy, it's a common occurrence.  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:56, 27 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose We don't post (or shouldn't, at any rate) every train crash and lorry pile up. Ditto gun crime in the US. Simply too many people are dying, too often, for Wiki to allow front page prominence to each and every event. This is a little local difficulty, and as stated above, ITN can't allow every gun-happy American to have their time in the sun. For a country with such lax and liberal gun legislation, front page attention for every incident involving guns is simply illogical. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doktorbuk (talk • contribs)


 * Oppose No different to every hostage standoffs that happens every year. Donnie Park (talk) 21:02, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Not a completely unusual event. 331dot (talk) 00:41, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

RD: Barnaby Jack

 * support as nom EdwardLane (talk) 14:20, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Article is a tad light. Most everything is about his death, and the presentation he didn't get to make because of said death.  If the facts of his life which made him noteworthy can be expanded some, I'd support this, but right now I feel the article is a tad light.  -- Jayron  32  14:31, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Changing to full Support based on the updating work by Medeis, Deepred, Libbux, et. al. -- Jayron  32  12:37, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Even if he was among the top of his field, I don't think he is notable enough for RD. He appears to have been largely unknown outside of the hacker community before his death; in fact, he was so little-known that nobody felt like creating an article about him until the day after he died. --Bongwarrior (talk) 14:34, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support I was ready to vote no as not recognizing the guy's name until I realized who he was from reading the sources. I suggest editors read this article at the daily beast.  Jack was basically the Frank Abignail of hackers, a huge influence on the electronic security field.  The fact that there was no article on him until recently is absolutely irrelevant to the nomination and speaks more about us than about him. His death at 35 of unknown causes is also notable. μηδείς (talk) 17:00, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support made headline news in the UK, and as Medeis notes, unusual circumstances surround the death. Article could use a bit more girth, but no issues with just posting two words on the main page.  The Rambling Man (talk) 17:10, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Due respect to the guy, but he was working in the tech field and didn't get a Wikipedia article during his lifetime. That actually doesn't say more about us than it does about him. Formerip (talk) 17:42, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per Medeis. I don't think it matters if he was largely unknown outside of hacker community, if he was top of his field, which he seemed to be. SeraV (talk) 18:18, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. He's just not notable enough or known as a significant individual in the hacking world. There's a lack of constant coverage covering him. I'd never even heard of him. While he is notable, he's not known enough. <span style="font-family: Verdana, monospace;letter-spacing:1px;color:#ECCA61;padding-left:5px;">Beerest355 Talk 18:37, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose for RD, content to go along with a full blurb. If the sources can be taken at face value then he was clearly at the top of his field, but does not seem to have been particularly well known within it (let alone outside of it). That limits the value of an RD posting without an accompanying blurb. —WFC— FL wishlist 19:08, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I disagree a blurb is called for since we don't have foul play as a known factor in the death, and he's not a sitting megastar, but I have suggested an altblurb anyway. μηδείς (talk) 19:20, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Reuters ineed says foul play's been ruled out. μηδείς (talk) 22:10, 27 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support per Medeis though the article seems a bit thin. Still, this is a good call for ITN RD, in my view, and not a candidate for a full blurb, which is for really major recent deaths, the way it has evolved. Jus  da  fax   19:13, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Updated the article is technically well updated as new, and I have added two new sections while condensing some headers. μηδείς (talk) 19:15, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Death section is still really light, any chance of expanding that? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:47, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I could quote two sentences from the beast as reaction, maybe later tonight, have family flying in and an uncomfortable dinner with the inlaws pendiing. μηδείς (talk) 19:52, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Well good luck with the in-laws... The Rambling Man (talk) 20:07, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Flight delayed two hours (yay!)
 * Oppose There are very few hackers who are significant to be in RD and this one is not. As for hackers, compared to Kevin Mitnick and Gary McKinnon, Jack is nowhere in their level of significance. Donnie Park (talk) 20:59, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Update I have updated the death section to five sentences as well.

"Not a Hacker"? some of the oppose votes here seem to be based on Jack's being a hacker of wireless devices, not of old time networks per se. Given his testimony is credited with having the FDA change its regulations of wireless medical devices, his fame within the industry, and given we have sources from the Wall Street Journal, the Guardian, the Daily Mail, NPR, huffington post, the Australian, PC World, Popular Science, etc., calling him famed, celebrated, etc., I think the "I never heard of him" comments are beside the point. μηδείς (talk) 21:35, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Reuters:"Jack was one of the world's most prominent 'white hat' hackers - those who use their technical skills to find security holes before criminals can exploit them. His genius was finding bugs in the tiny computers embedded in equipment, such as medical devices and cash machines. He often received standing ovations at conferences for his creativity and showmanship while his research forced equipment makers to fix bugs in their software."I think we can dispense with the notion that someone needs to be a most wanted criminal like Kevin Mitnick to be a hacker. μηδείς (talk) 22:10, 27 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support I must say I was sceptical, particularly since I'm a New Zealander and had never heard of him. But the sources provided do seem to indicate that he was widely regarded as a very important figure in his field. And his death is getting a lot of attention - it's the second most viewed story on the BBC News website. Neljack (talk) 02:45, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose It seems reasonable to suppose that if a individual is so highly notable as to justify ITN inclusion we would know what his real name is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.112.82.208 (talk) 06:38, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Since his real name was Barnaby Jack, I really don't see what your oppose is about. SeraV (talk) 07:29, 28 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Weak support. As far as I can understand from article and the quote above, this guy was notable enough. Not having a Wikipedia article previously isn't that convincing to me.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  08:32, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Marking Ready we have majority support, a well-updtaed article, and broad world-wide support and coverage in the sources. The quality of many oppose rationales is lacking; personal unfamiliarity, newness of article, different definition of hacker, "not knowing his real name"; none of these refute he was the top of the fields of device and wireless hacking. μηδείς (talk) 14:24, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, come on. Since you !voted support, you shouldn't have been the one to mark this as ready. <span style="font-family: Verdana, monospace;letter-spacing:1px;color:#ECCA61;padding-left:5px;">Beerest355 Talk 14:36, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I second Beerest355. Involved parties shouldn't be evaluating consensus.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  15:15, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No, Medeis has done nothing wrong - it is common for users who have supported an item marking it as "ready" if they believe it has been updated and has consensus. This is perfectly proper: marking as "ready" is effectively just a tag to indicate that an (uninvolved) admin is needed to evaluated whether there is consensus (and a sufficient update) to post. There still has to be that independent evaluation of consensus and update by an uninvolved admin. See this from the instruction as the top of this page: "Items can also be marked as [Ready] when the article is both updated and there seems to be a consensus to post. The posting admin, however, should always judge the update and the consensus to post themselves." Neljack (talk) 22:12, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I see. Thanks for clarifying.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  02:59, 29 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose, primary sources aka obituaries appeared after his death, showing that this person was not the subject of analysis in secondary sources prior to July 26, 2013. Wikipedia requires secondary sources for articles, and this person's article may not even have survived an AFD. It is inappropriate for posting to the front page. Abductive  (reasoning) 00:42, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I am not sure where you get the notion Barnaby Jack was not covered in secondary sources from. See mentions in PCWorld, Computer World, Security Week, Bloomberg etc.  His paper "Remote Windows Kernel Exploitation" is also cited in various books, if not as widely as works by certain football players we have posted.  Or, if your complaint is about our article, again, and not the sources themselves, it is irrelevant, as wikipedia is not a source. μηδείς (talk) 02:43, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * He was not analyzed. I am not complaining about the article, I am telling anybody who will listen that he barely deserves an article. Abductive  (reasoning) 05:29, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Protests and violence in Egypt

 * Update. According to RT the health ministry is now saying the death toll is 92 (instead of 38). MB is saying it's over 200 .  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  12:02, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - I cannot think of a reason why this should not be included. D arth B otto talk•cont 16:46, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - Big story world wide, and the situation is dire. Jus  da  fax   19:16, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Sticky? The problem with protest outbreaks is the next day they might be bigger or gone.  And has Morsi not been charged with kidnapping and murder, or did I misread something?  μηδείς (talk) 19:54, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support sticky. The situation is relatively fast-paced, and there have been multiple newsworthy flashpoints in the past month or so. If the sticky proved unwarranted, it would probably be removed in a week or so, which is roughly how long this story would run for anyway. —WFC— FL wishlist 20:04, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support sticky per others. More that 100 deaths in a single day.  Eugεn  S¡m¡on  (14) ®  20:15, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support obviously -- Ե րևանցի talk  03:56, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support blurb, oppose sticky I think we should be sparing with stickies, and we haven't posted that many blurbs on the recent events in Egypt. A sticky is not very informative - most readers will probably not click on it, whereas a blurb would inform of this major development. Neljack (talk) 04:32, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support As the others told above.-- Seyyed(t-c) 08:19, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Article is now updated and alternative blurb suggested. I'd recommend having the sticky suggestion again when we have more nominations from Egypt, otherwise I think the blurb is much better for the time being. I understand that those supporting the sticky also support the blurb (or at least don't oppose it). Should be ready to post.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  08:23, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted I used a modification of the alternate blurb. --  tariq abjotu  09:37, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Murder so what about the murder charges against Morsi. is that not relevant to have in the blurb? μηδείς (talk) 14:26, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Of course it is (and so are Friday's mass rival rallies), but obviously the killing of protesters is more significant. How do you suggest we incorporate it into the blurb?  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  15:18, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Assassination of Mohamed Brahmi
EdwardLane (talk) 13:59, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Second opposition leader of the same coalition killed this year in Tunisia, so I think this story will unfold into something big. It's too early for me to see if this will get lots of coverage in the Spanish-speaking world, but some of the US-European media is picking up on this story quickly. ComputerJA ( ☎  •  ✎  ) 08:36, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support but as usual the article needs substantial work. Jus  da  fax   09:36, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support upon article improvement. 331dot (talk) 09:57, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment just saw this which says "Interior minister Lotfi Ben Jeddou told a news conference in Tunis: "The same 9mm automatic weapon that killed Belaid also killed Brahmi." He named the main suspect as hardline Salafist Boubacar Hakim, already being sought on suspicion of smuggling weapons from Libya."
 * That sort of information should be added to the article, not the ITN nomination. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 15:32, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Fair enough it should be in the article, but also I thought it might have a significant impact on the support/oppose 'votes' given that it did now seem linked very tangibly to the chokri belaid story that was previously posted. Incidentally is this nomination/article ready ? EdwardLane (talk) 13:48, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

10 thousand people attended the funeral according the xinhua news source - to give it a scale of some sort. And though it's not easy to pin down there is also a good chunk of political fallout too, with thousands calling for the goverment to resign. EdwardLane (talk) 14:29, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted The article is still not stellar, but it's good enough and generally what we'd request for a new article. Support seems sufficient with no objection after two days. --  tariq abjotu  09:38, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

RD: Chiwoniso Maraire

 * Comment. I would like to support, but the article needs some work.  331dot (talk) 16:14, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment-Longing to support, per 331dot. QatarStarsLeague (talk) 22:41, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment The above two posts simply exemplify our systemic bias. If nobody here is a fan, the article will be crap, so it fails. There's something fundamentally wrong with this approach. I nominated something a few weeks ago. The article was crap. Thought I could improve it a bit. Wife broke her ankle. I got busy. Nomination failed because of crap article. Or, more correctly, the nomination failed because my wife broke her ankle. Is that really how we want things to work here? HiLo48 (talk) 23:09, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Could you ask your wife to be more careful in the future? Stephen 23:23, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * We all have things in life which might prevent us from doing things here that we might want to do; it's just the way it is. As we both said, we would like to support, but it's hard to support an article with limited information that doesn't allow us to decide. Articles in poor condition (about Westerners and non-Westerners) generally are not posted until they are improved, as well. I have a feeling that this person does merit being posted, but I need to see more information in the article. 331dot (talk) 09:56, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Quite. I don't think it's anyone in particular's fault, but I think for whatever reason RD is a lot more susceptible to general systemic bias than the blurbs. LukeSurlt c 10:41, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * While I don't agree with your reasoning on systematic bias HL, I do extend my condolences, as a broken ankle is a serious wheelchair injury, and being a caregiver is a tough, time consuming thing to do. My best wishes for rapid healing to you both. Jus  da  fax   10:53, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for those thoughts. The systemic bias, however, comes from the fact that it will inevitably be the articles on people not from the cultures from which the editors here come that will be of a poorer quality. If we reject people because of that quality problem, and the poorer quality is because those people are from "foreign" cultures, that's virtually the definition of a systemic bias. HiLo48 (talk) 12:22, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I can't support this the way the article currently is. There's only one sentence about the death and the article as a whole is very short, and it does little to indicate why this singer is important. If this article is updated to satisfy RD criteria I may change my !vote. But for now, oppose.<span style="font-family: Verdana, monospace;letter-spacing:1px;color:#ECCA61;padding-left:5px;">Beerest355 Talk 16:34, 26 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose based on article quality, lack of update, and no indication of significance beyond the nominators claim that she's famous in Africa. Even the BBC article is very short and simply says she was popular in Zimbabwe. Yes, this is an example of systematic bias, but reducing the ITN criteria is not the way to fix that (which would effectively be positive discrimination). <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 16:51, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * How DO we fix it? HiLo48 (talk) 18:54, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * On the project level: by getting more editors in under-represented areas. On the ITN level: by paying more attention to non-western stories and media coverage and incorporating that into articles. See WikiProject Countering systemic bias. There's no need for new ITN rules or relaxation of existing ones. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 20:50, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I see some progress, in that we are getting more nominations for non-Western stories, although we're nowhere near matching the reality that 90% of the world's population of not white and western. But how do we make our mostly western editors improve the non-western articles? HiLo48 (talk) 22:59, 26 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Require an editor contribute to getting one non-Western themed article up to GA status per year, or they are not permitted to edit pages of things they are interested in. 97.81.161.12 (talk) 02:02, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Take the patronizing comments on everybody else's racism elsewhere, this is not the place for it. μηδείς (talk) 02:19, 27 July 2013 (UTC)


 * As soon as someone expands the article to a more reasonable level, consider my vote a support. -- Jayron  32  14:28, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * How is that going to happen? Who is that someone going to be? Why not you? HiLo48 (talk) 05:50, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not the one desperate to see the article on the main page. Your last question applies as well to you as it does to anyone else.  -- Jayron  32  12:40, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, it does, and like you, I have neither the time, background knowledge or driving interest. That we don't should not be good enough reason for not posting this. While our rules remain as they are, we are both part of the problem. And probably shouldn't be. One day I'll get enough people to realise how blatant our systemic bias really is. HiLo48 (talk) 21:24, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Just not important enough for the front page, and I can see the lack of updates to the article underlines this doktorb wordsdeeds 08:13, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - This topic is certainly important enough for the main page. Yes, the article could use some work, and perhaps by posting it, others actually will work on it. There is a circular problem with not posting an important article that is sub-par when the reason it is sub-par is simply because the majority of current Wikipedia editors are not familiar with the topic. By continuing to keep such articles off the main page, Wikipedia is unlikely to attract new (or current) editors who can help improve them (and indeed, it likely alienates people who perceive Wikipedia as keeping such articles away from the main page as a sign that we simply doesn't care about topics important to them). –Prototime (talk · contribs) 21:35, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Current Wikipedia users can only discuss subjects that current Wikipedia users are familiar with; no one person here has the sum knowledge of all current human civilization. If users who care about underrepresented topics want us to care about them enough to support their posting to ITN or RD, they need to be here to convince us.  It is something of a chicken-or-the-egg problem; but it's up to the people who care and are knowledgeable about the subject to get us to care.  This discussion is now drifting away from the merits of posting this subject to the broader subject about systemic issues; I would suggest those discussions take place in the proper forum. 331dot (talk) 21:57, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You're just proving the systemic bias. And I am not aware of any other "proper" forum where there would be enough interest. That too is part of the problem. We have a systemic bias that even prevents us discussing the systemic bias effectively. HiLo48 (talk) 22:05, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * So I should support subjects that I have no knowledge of, or an article that does not give me enough information to gain said knowledge? As suggested at the countering systemic bias page, you should go out and recruit users in underrepresented areas to contribute here. That's the only thing we can do without some sort of affirmative action program (which would simply reverse the problem). 331dot (talk) 22:23, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No, I didn't say that you "should support subjects that I have no knowledge of, or an article that does not give me enough information to gain said knowledge". That's unhelpful misrepresentation. But you should care about fixing the problem too. Do you? HiLo48 (talk) 22:31, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe you didn't say that, but that seems to me to be what you are suggesting; that I should accept a wink and a "trust me" to nominations of subjects that I don't know anything about. I do care about "fixing the problem", but whether I care or not is irrelevant; I can't contribute information I have no knowledge of, or support subjects that I don't know anything about without a decent article to reference. I can't fly to Zimbabwe, India, or other countries to recruit users from those nations. I can only contribute what I know and endorse subjects that I know.  As this is drifting off topic, I will have no further comment here; I would be happy to do so in the proper forum. 331dot (talk) 22:40, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is off-topic, but I'm discussing it here because we have a systemic bias. I don't know a "proper forum" where this discussion would work. That's part of our systemic bias too. Where else do YOU regularly look that I could discuss it? Or does our systemic bias mean there's nowhere? HiLo48 (talk) 00:50, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your feedback, 331dot, but I'm afraid I must disagree with this being the case here. This article has been brought forward by someone familiar with the subject, and while the quality of the article could be improved, its notability is about equal with many of the other RDs. I dislike the idea of using such a stringent quality standard to exclude on article on RD grounds. Being too stringent excludes many articles from ITN or RD, and it does have a disparate impact on topics that are less-cared about by Wikipedia's editorial majority. As far as the systemic bias issue, I would agree with HiLo48 that does seem to an appropriate place to bring it up (bringing it up in the context of specific instances where it appears to be manifesting), but I would be happy to also have that conversation on another forum, though I am unfamiliar with where that forum may be. –Prototime (talk · contribs) 02:57, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If it was brought forth by someone knowledgeable in the subject, then they should use their knowledge to improve the article and make it easier for those not knowledgeable to read about the subject to see if they agree it should be posted. As Wikipedia is run by consensus, absent some affirmative action program(which only reverses the problem), we can only discuss subjects that the majority is knowledgeable about; it is up to the nominator of a lesser-known subject to publicize it and inform others. That isn't any more stringent a standard for some articles than others; it's simply reality. 331dot (talk) 11:44, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * 331dot has conveniently positioned himself. Says we must find a better forum, but won't (can't?) tell us what that is? I think we're actually getting somewhere. Silence rather than opposition can be the first step towards acceptance. This will be a long process, but it matters. HiLo48 (talk) 05:48, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Sigh. I'm not "positioning myself" to do anything; I'm simply stating what I see. It is not up to me to find a forum for you to advocate an issue you are passionate about. I see numerous discussion pages such as the village pump.  If you feel that people don't look there regularly, it is up to you to draw attention to the issue, perhaps with requests for comment on this page linking there(which I have seen done elsewhere). 331dot (talk) 11:44, 29 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose based both on article quality and the notability of the subject. This person published 4 albums and there's no particular evidence that the person was a leader in their field (we need some evidence such as sales figures, awards or similar recognition).  The fact that her band was very multinational is mildly interesting but not nearly enough.--Johnsemlak (talk) 23:42, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Bo Xilai charged in Wang Lijun incident

 * Question Don't we normally wait for a conviction/not guilty rather than posting charges? Thryduulf (talk) 10:04, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * On high profile cases, ITN usually posts indictments or arrests... – H T  D  10:13, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Wait until verdict. This is a significant case, but the indictment has been expected since his arrest months ago. -Zanhe (talk) 13:27, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. We usually post indictments and convictions, expected or otherwise.  This is being widely covered and as such readers might come here looking for more information. 331dot (talk) 14:03, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak support since we have already posted installments of this story (two, I think). The blurb should end at "abuse of office" with the wikilink located elesewhere - blurbs should not proclaim their own significance. Formerip (talk) 15:49, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak support per above statements. and this is obviously a special and significant case.--BabbaQ (talk) 23:16, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I can't see anything in either article listed as occurring in July. Stephen 23:38, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Wait until the verdict. We already posted this story once, and should wait for a conviction before putting it on the Main Page again. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 11:09, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] New species (Hero Shrew)

 * Comment. Article reads like copyvio. Or just crap. Fix it. Abductive  (reasoning) 22:04, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * ?? Yes, Andise, fix that "crap"? Is that how this works? μηδείς (talk) 22:29, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Just callin' 'em like I see 'em. Articles need to be in decent shape for ITN. Abductive  (reasoning) 22:31, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Just to be clear, the above comments relate to armored shrew. The article for the news species didn't exist at teh tiem the comments were made. --ThaddeusB (talk) 04:06, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, your article is much better. Can a pic be added? Abductive  (reasoning) 14:22, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Following up... I've started to work on the hero shrew article. The text was indeed a (likely) copyright violation via close paraphrase. --ThaddeusB (talk)


 * Comment the (non-existent) species article would be the best one to update presumably. Also blurbs should always be in the present tense.  I have modified the blurb accordingly. --ThaddeusB (talk) 22:34, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - new (living) mammal species are very rare. This one is especially notable as it may rewrite evolutionary history (the hero shrew was long thought to be an excellent example of punctuated equilibrium, but this species suggests it may have evolved slowly after all).  People not involved w/the study are calling it a significant find.  See also the analysis provided by Nature, the BBC, and National Geographic (all used in the article).  Article is now updated; I have suggested an altblurb. --ThaddeusB (talk) 04:07, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Is there any way to get an "important because it..." type phrase in the blurb? I am all for phylogeny. μηδείς (talk) 04:20, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps: Thor's hero shrew is discovered, casting doubt that its sister species, the armored shrew, evolved via punctuated equilibrium. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThaddeusB (talk • contribs) 00:34, 25 July 2013‎
 * I was trying to think of something more positive, like "Scutisorex thori'', able to bear 72kg on its spine, is the second armored shrew discovered in 60 years." μηδείς (talk) 05:08, 25 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support Discovering a living mammal is a rare event and is certainly newsworthy. This is even more true with this particular discovery, given the seeming consequences on evolutionary science. –Prototime (talk · contribs) 04:42, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That bit about punctuated equilibrium is not backed up by the sources. Try to find where people have claimed Scutisorex somereni as an example of punctuated equilibrium prior to yesterday. Abductive  (reasoning) 14:27, 25 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support As already pointed out, this is rare. And awwww Shrews are just sooooooo cute! Don't believe me? Look. LOOK. --Somchai Sun (talk) 16:00, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Ready updated and well-supported, read ta go. μηδείς (talk) 17:11, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted Stephen 23:30, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment I had not heard of a shrew before and didn't know (and still don't, really) what a "sister species" is. The linked articles are bare-bones (sofixit, I'm not complaining) and I had to come here to really understand that this is about the discovery of a new mammal species, which is uncommon. Can the blurb be rewritten to something like "A new mammal species, Thor's hero shrew, is found in Africa". 69.165.207.197 (talk) 05:27, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Santiago de Compostela train crash

 * Oppose no transportation accidents unless something beyond death count is notable. {remove opposition, 35 is more than 12]. μηδείς (talk) 20:07, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * How? - Eugεn  S¡m¡on  (14) ®  20:14, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That doesn't even make sense. --12.41.124.5 (talk) 20:54, 24 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support We posted the Brétigny-sur-Orge train derailment with lower death toll. If we posted it, it is logical to post this one too. Also, these events are quite rare in developed countries. Jeanluc20 (talk) 20:24, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * But it was not logical to post the French mishap. μηδείς (talk) 22:31, 24 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - Per Jeanluc and established precedent for train crashes in developed countries. Death toll now 20, wouldn't be surprised to see it rise. Mjroots (talk) 20:33, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Extensive coverage in the Mexican news and internationally as well. 20 dead is good enough for ITN. ComputerJA ( ☎  •  ✎  ) 20:36, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Neutral looks like a terrible crash, actually made it onto the BBC homepage despite Baby George. (Article needs substantial update though....) The Rambling Man (talk) 21:05, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Major accident and sufficient news coverage. --Somchai Sun (talk) 21:04, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Appears to be a high speed rail accident. I would however like it pulled if the death toll turns out to have been overstated. Abductive  (reasoning) 22:02, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support given the death toll, but strongly oppose the suggestion that there should be one rule for train crashes in developed countries and another for ones in developing countries, which would be a blatant example of systemic bias. Neljack (talk) 22:10, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That kind of rule is often applied here. White western deaths count for a lot more than others. Obviously I don't support that approach. HiLo48 (talk) 22:44, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree that is a problem here. Neljack (talk) 23:16, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The converse problem exists, that infrastructure is poor in third-world countries, and death tolls much higher. The journalistic rule of thumb used to be 1 Dead Englishamna equals 10 dead Frenchman, equals 100 Dead... and that is certainly still the case, say, for tropical strorms in the Americas, see Hurricane Mitch. μηδείς (talk) 00:52, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Medeis is correct - death tolls are higher in the developing world than the first world for the same storm/disaster. It is not about the importance of the lives lost, but rather the rarity of the disaster. --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:09, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see the relevance of that. Terrorist attacks are more common in the US than they are here in New Zealand, but that doesn't mean I would oppose a terrorist attack in the US but support one with the same number of casualties in New Zealand. It's still the same number of dead, and therefore the same importance. This isn't DYK: we're not here to post surprising and unusual things, we're here to post important things. Neljack (talk) 02:54, 25 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support. Death toll now 35 according to the BBC (I've updated the blurb) and it's being described as the worst rail accident in Spain for 40 years. Thryduulf (talk) 22:20, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support pending update, significant train crash. However, the blurb should say 'dozens' so we don't have issues with keeping the number up to date. The article is currently only two paragraphs, so needs some expansion first. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 22:35, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Significant casualties; receiving significant coverage. 331dot (talk) 01:04, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Ready - article meets minimum requirements and is reasonably complete for this early stage. I fixed the tense of the blurb. --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:06, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted Stephen 01:26, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Abu Ghraib prison break

 * Comment Break occurred on 21st July. --LukeSurlt c 09:17, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Stale. By the time this gets posted it will be 24/25/26 July depending on where you are in the world. This nom was made way too late. The encyclopedic value of the event is not enough to allow for such a late posting.  ★ ★King•Retrolord★ ★  09:23, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not stale. If it were posted now, it would be the second or third item (the event happened overnight between July 21 and July 22). --  tariq abjotu  09:33, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes but by the time it is posted it will be a lot staler than it currently is.  ★ ★King•Retrolord★ ★  09:34, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Um, yes, every story is staler than it was when it was nominated. How much staler is dependent on how quickly the article is updated and how quickly people comment. --  tariq abjotu  10:00, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Well back to my original point. I think its too stale already. And there isn't enough encyclopedic value here to negate that fact.  ★ ★King•Retrolord★ ★  10:04, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Stale, for the purposes of ITN, is not subjective. Stale is when the event occurred before the last item on ITN. That is not the case here, being newer than all but the first one, or maybe two, items. So it's not stale. Whether a story is significant enough for ITN should be time-independent. --  tariq abjotu  10:10, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Stale, for my purposes, sums this up perfectly.  ★ ★King•Retrolord★ ★  10:13, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support pending update - Notable attack/jailbreak from an infamous prison that was and is a symbol of torture. Argument about event being stale is unconvincing. I believe the alt blurb may be the best one. My concern is the update in the target article on the prison which is currently way too thin. Jus  da  fax   10:17, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The prison itself is famous. Shouldn't we go with a blurb that at least mentions it?  ★ ★King•Retrolord★ ★  10:18, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The prison is now called Baghdad Central Prison by the way, they renamed it (for obvious reasons) --LukeSurlt c 10:30, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Should the blurb/article to be updated be changed then?  ★ ★King•Retrolord★ ★  10:33, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. (it was a redirect anyway) --LukeSurlt c 10:34, 24 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support Notable for the nature of some of those freed. --LukeSurlt c 10:35, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support many deaths + big jailbreak + infamous prison. SeraV (talk) 13:44, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per SeraV. 331dot (talk) 13:55, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: No opinion on the merits of the story, but the article needs some attention. The update is adequate, but the rest of the article is a bit of a mess. Although the tags are only yellow-level, I do think the other sections and structure of the article need tidying up before this should go on the Main Page. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 16:08, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment I think I sympathize with king blinking lord's concerns, but I find I can't read the bit's near his signature. μηδείς (talk) 17:22, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Who?  ★ ★King•Retrolord★ ★  17:43, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, biggest news out of Abu Ghraib since Abu Ghraib. Abductive  (reasoning) 22:06, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Yeah... so about those orange tags. --  tariq abjotu  03:44, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Two days, no improvement. Looks like it isn't going to happen. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 20:52, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I did some cleanup and referencing work; we have only 2 tags now, one of them orange.  Spencer T♦ C 04:08, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Recent Deaths: Djalma Santos

 * Support for RD but only if article is significantly expanded. For as notable of a career as Santos had, his article is shamefully lacking. --ThaddeusB (talk) 04:19, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Opppose unless he was also a decorated war veteran or something else to make him more notable than a good ball player. μηδείς (talk) 04:24, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - 'One of the top 125' (in the opinion of a single, albeit well-informed, person) doesn't sound so outstanding. If he was the leading exponent in his day of some particular position or skill, I'd reconsider. AlexTiefling (talk) 06:56, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * See my comments below for evidence that he was not only the leading right-back of his time (and an innovative one in developing a more attacking role for fullbacks), but one of the leading right-backs of all time. Neljack (talk) 03:30, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

–<font color="#FFA500">H <font color="#FFA500">T <font coBold textlor="#FFA500">D  11:44, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak Oppose. The "top 125" player statement is from a single person.  "Best right-back of all time" statement is uncited and just an opinion without something to back it up(awards, tops in statistics, etc.)  Would reconsider upon expansion of article making his notability clearer and less about one person's opinion. 331dot (talk) 10:46, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Question how big a story is this in Brazil? --LukeSurlt c 11:28, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comparison: (Can't compare with goals since Trautmann is a goalkeeper.)
 * Comment on my name appearing in the above table: I neither opposed nor supported the Trautmann nomination. I simply sought a better standard of discussion. Such efforts often meet resistance and misinterpretation here. And that's all part of the problem. At least this time the nomination has helpfully mentioned the sport this guy played. That's all I was seeking last time. (Don't really care whether or not this is posted either. There is so much pointless soccer content in Wikipedia anyway that another 0.0000001% makes little difference.) HiLo48 (talk) 23:07, 24 July 2013 (UTC)


 * The quality of the article and exceptional story probably swung it for Trautmann. Looking at the arguments above, a well developed bio which makes clear that Santos is a credible contender for the greatest full back ever would probably convince Alex and 331dot. —WFC— FL wishlist 14:05, 24 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Leaning support – this nom should not be opposed on the grounds of calibre in my opinion, but the article and update are mediocre. —WFC— FL wishlist 14:05, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

So, Santos is a better card to have in Top Trumps. But since Trautmann was unable to play international football because of his residency, and didn't start playing until he was 25, because of the war, none of your comparisons really mean much. Oh, and because "trophies won" would not normally be understood to include individual domestic matches. However, joint fifth most capped player for Brazil is not to be sniffed at, so support. Agree that the article could do with some expansion, though. Formerip (talk) 13:40, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Change to support once the article is expanded and it is clearer that his notability is not based on just one person's opinion. 331dot (talk) 13:53, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Trautmann was posted because of his post-WWII Anglo-German relations work, not his footy career (I hope). Santos is just a footy player. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:57, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support "Regarded by many as the best right-back ever to have played the game", according to FIFA ; "widely regarded as one of the greatest right-backs ever" ; "rated in many international surveys as the best right-back of all-time" . Being one of only two players ever to make three World Cup All-Star teams should also be a pretty good indication that he was regarded as the greatest right-back of his time. He was a pioneer of attacking fullback play: "Brazilians credit him and his contemporary Nilton Santos with helping create the overlap. Both players got forward when possible, which was a rarity among defenders of the time." The two oppose votes saying he's just a footballer should be disregarded: footballers, like those in other fields, are eligible to be posted if they were "widely regarded as a very important figure in their field" (which, as the sources linked to indicate, he clearly was). The fact that some people don't like the field (and I'm not a soccer fan either) is irrelevant. Neljack (talk) 00:19, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * He was also named in the FIFA World Cup All-Time Team and described by Sir Bobby Charlton as "the best right-back I ever saw. He was too good to be a full-back, really, he could have played anywhere on the pitch." Neljack (talk) 03:27, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If only the article contained information like this...  Spencer T♦ C 12:34, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] South Sudan government

 * Oppose. We generally don't post cabinet changes; cabinets usually serve at the pleasure of the President/Prime Minister.  If this was a general election, it would be ITNR. 331dot (talk) 20:06, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Unfortunately, the nominator rather poorly worded the importance of this story. If this was any regular cabinet shuffle, it would not be news - cabinet reshuffles happen all the time.  In this case, however, every single minister has been sacked, but most crucially so has the Vice President.  Now, going by our article on the VPship, it's an appointed position by the PM as well, so it may not be notable enough even then, but still.  The fact the Vice President's been dismissed is the important thing here, which makes this no ordinary reshuffle. I've suggested a possible alternative blurb. Redverton (talk) 23:19, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Just to pile on to what this is about, Sudan Tribune is also reporting an attempt to unseat the head of the (only real) political party, as well as sacking every minister and deputy minister. A few years ago all these ministers used to be the heads of rival rebel groups, so this smells like a power grab, and maybe even a coup against Kiir's own government. Unfortunately, there's no update to the suggested bolded link, and only one line updates to Salva Kiir Mayardit and Riek Machar. - BanyanTree 00:12, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Great to hear, but without wanting to promote the topic (new country doesn't revert to chaos or tyranny) it will be hard to justify it for ITN. μηδείς (talk) 01:58, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The rationale needs clarifying--nom makes this sound peaceful "reshuffling" Commenter describes as coup. Which is it? μηδείς (talk) 04:27, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed- if it's a coup, then the blurb should say so. Otherwise, I still oppose. 331dot (talk) 13:54, 24 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Without being too flippant about something which is unlikely to happen, would we post the wholesale replacement of the British cabinet, up to and including Nick Clegg? Possibly, but the reasons for and consequences of the decision would be the deciding factors (for instance if the cause of the reshuffle was a major political scandal, or if it was clear that the new cabinet had a dramatically different agenda). —WFC— FL wishlist 14:18, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Recent Deaths: Dennis Farina

 * Who? μηδείς (talk) 20:48, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "Please do not...... add simple "support" or "oppose" notes. Similarly, curt replies such as "who?", "meh", or "duh!" are usually not helpful. Instead, explain the reasons why you think the item meets or does not meet the ITN inclusion criteria so a consensus can be reached. Andise1 (talk) 20:53, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Seriously, who? Is that unclear? μηδείς (talk) 22:34, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Is my original comment unclear? He was an actor who appeared in many television shows and movies. You could have also gone to his article to find out who he was too... Andise1 (talk) 23:39, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Andisel is absolutely correct to remind you, Medeis, of the clearly-stated protocols ITN has in place for nominations. Asking "who?" as a one word ITN response is out of order, rude, and generates needless ill-will. And you have been here long enough to know that. Jus  da  fax   00:27, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "Ill will?" seriously? I didn't say the guy was a stupid American imperialist who would not have been mentioned if yatta, yatta, yatta, Americans (or the like). It is a suggestion, not a policy, and I think "who" was perfectly eloquent in this case, and I neither withdraw nor apologize.  I am nor even opposing, just "whoing".  μηδείς (talk) 00:39, 23 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Weak oppose. He had an extensive body of work, but not much in the way of formal recognition in his career. 331dot (talk) 20:52, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - I recognize the name, but I'm not very familiar with him. I really don't think there's any way he could be considered "widely regarded as a very important figure in his field" as required by the death criteria. --Bongwarrior (talk) 21:07, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Solid body of work, but fails the death criteria (much like Cory Monteith and Mel Smith) – Muboshgu (talk) 21:11, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I applied the Monteith test and the Mel Smith test, but he didn't pass either. Formerip (talk) 22:08, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose We really must calm down a bit and stop letting the fan clubs of minor performers decide the content of Wikipedia. There's been too much of that recently. HiLo48 (talk) 23:22, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I am not a fan of him nor have I ever been. I saw that his death was receiving some significant coverage (mainly in US sources) so I decided to nominate him. Andise1 (talk) 23:42, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The media and the entertainment industry have an interesting relationship. The modern entertainment industry could not live without the media, and the media loves that content to fill column inches and television minutes, for which they now have sub-daily deadlines. We don't. The fact that things appear in the media does not really make them news for our purposes. We certainly don't mention Hollywood romances and the consequent babies here, but they are well covered by the media. I accept that you're not part of the fan club here, but some recent postings (and perhaps this nomination) have attracted plenty of them. HiLo48 (talk) 23:55, 22 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose . He's from the U.S. and who cares about them? Obviously no sources outside the U.S. have covered this. Seriously, support. Abcdefg0 (talk) 06:00, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Here are a few more news sources that are reporting about his death Andise1 (talk) 06:26, 23 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose like Bongwarrior noted, he does not meet any of the death criteria, which should be enough for not posting him already. And Andise1 popularity is not one of the criteria for posting these, which should be kept in mind. SeraV (talk) 08:11, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Does not meet the recent deaths criteria. --Somchai Sun (talk) 14:32, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Sorry, just not significant enough. Not widely recognised as a leader in his field. The RD section is not for listing every vaguely famous person who dies. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 16:49, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Suggest closing this discussion, it clearly is not going to be posted. 331dot (talk) 20:07, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Duchess Kate bears a son

 * XXX is a very fashion-forward name, isn't it?--WaltCip (talk) 19:56, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support but don't wait around for a name. Prince Charles wasn't named for a month, so let's get it going with a neutral blurb.  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:58, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support A little silly the amount of attention this gets, but indisputably big international news. --LukeSurlt c 20:00, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Baby of the decade! (its sad that the world cares so much but unfortunately thats the reality) -- Ashish-g55 20:01, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Correct the lede: The mother is properly known as Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge.  I think the verb is "bear", not "bare."  With appropriate write-up, support once the official announcement has been posted in London.  (Plus, cute babbehpix!) 50.195.77.65 (talk) 20:02, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Her common name is Kate. Why do we ignore that policy for these people? HiLo48 (talk) 21:59, 22 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support – Could care less about this myself, but for England this is a fairly big deal. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 20:03, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Edit conflicted trying to nominate this (and several more times supporting). The future monarch of dozens of nations is clearly significant. It's plausible that we won't have a freely licensed picture of the baby for some time, unless a Wikimedian happens to be in the crowd.  Perhaps we should directly link Line of succession to the British throne? --Pakaran 20:06, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Then update once we have a name. Miyagawa (talk) 20:07, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support both significant and exciting event.Egeymi (talk) 20:09, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support neutral blurb. Names are overrated when it comes to royals anyway. Tombo7791 (talk) 20:11, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Correct it a bit more: What's wrong with "Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge gives birth to..."? It's not as if William "bore" the child himself anyway. 87.113.216.108 (talk) 20:14, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Note Isn't it the mother that actually bears the child? Therefore, a better blurb would be "A son, third in line of succession to the British throne, is born to..." Black Kite (talk) 20:15, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, my high school advanced placement English teacher actually used that as an example of where the passive voice ("is born") is unquestionably appropriate. So yeah, maybe. Pakaran 20:16, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment, Black Kite's blurb is much more proper.Egeymi (talk) 20:17, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Alt blurb updated, it was Kate who bore the child, William did his bit nine months plus a bit ago. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:22, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Are you suggesting we should add "...nine months after her husband inseminated her using his penis"? Formerip (talk) 22:25, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I still think gives birth to a son is more natural-sounding than bears a son. 87.113.216.108 (talk) 20:26, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support I hate that this is getting so much attention, but that's the way the world turns. I also agree that changing it to "gives birth to a son" is better. <span style="font-family: Verdana, monospace;letter-spacing:1px;color:#ECCA61;padding-left:5px;">Beerest355 Talk 20:29, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose altblurb --it's not a bastard child, and we are concerned with the live birth to the parents, not which canal. μηδείς (talk) 20:34, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Please look up the definition of bears a child – it refers to the act of giving birth. 87.113.216.108 (talk) 20:37, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * AS opposed to "have a child" which means "eat one"? This is silly PC nonsense--unless they're naming him Jesus. μηδείς (talk) 20:52, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The phrase "Yeah, whatever" comes to mind. 87.113.216.108 (talk) 20:55, 22 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Yep, Billy did his piece nine months ago Medeis! The Rambling Man (talk) 20:51, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Ready the birth section is updated, the blurb can be updated if a name is timely given, there is no opposition in general. μηδείς (talk) 20:32, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted a slight variation of the altblurb. --Bongwarrior (talk) 20:45, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't it be "third in the line of succession" rather than "third in line of succession"? The latter, which is currently displayed, sounds weird to my admittedly American ears.  Dragons flight (talk) 21:17, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it seems like the "the" is needed; I've added it. --  tariq abjotu  21:22, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No chance of mentioning Commonwealth realm to avoid the anglo-centric posting in the blurb? Pedro : Chat  21:25, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Weeell, those Commonwealth realms might be considered a little anglocentric in who they decide to have as their head of state. Can you think of a way of saying it without adding very much extra text to the blurb? Formerip (talk) 22:01, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes. That's critical. I'm an Australian who would rather we didn't have a monarch, but at this stage this kid is just as much in line for the Australian throne as the British one. This apples to around 14 other countries too. HiLo48 (talk) 22:10, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think Australia actually has a throne, does it? We would have to add something like "and to become head of state of 15 Commonwealth countries" or something like that. Formerip (talk) 22:22, 22 July 2013 (UTC)


 * BTW, "the" isn't necessary. You can be third in line at the post office, or third in the line at the post office. Formerip (talk) 22:01, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * What a wonderful metaphor. I bet Charles wished he'd got that pension cheque cashed at his local Cash Converters instead. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:09, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see it that way at all. Being "in line", without the the, is idiomatic, and only works when you're in line somewhere, to something, with someone, etc. If it was "third in line to the British throne", I wouldn't have seen a problem. But "third in line of succession to the British throne"? No, I don't think so. Likewise, while you might say you're "third in line at the post office", you probably would not say you are "third in line of people at the post office". --  tariq abjotu  22:51, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "Third in line of people at the post office" is actually grammatical, it is just not something we would normally say ("of" = out of). You could instead compare "third in order of preference". Formerip (talk) 23:02, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Here it is on the Queen's website (third para) . Not a massive deal, but why use more words than are necessary in a blurb? Formerip (talk) 23:21, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose and remove at once. Notability is not inherited, at least not here on Wikipedia. We'll post it if and when he is appointed head of state through democratic election or through a non-democratic mechanism in the country in question, which is the treatment we give all others. If you want to announce the birth of your newborn son or daughter, you should turn to the local paper, not an encyclopedia. This does simply not qualify, especially considering that the election of a head of government of a state with nearly 10 million inhabitants was not posted, and this guy just happens to have famous relatives, he is not the head of state or in any equivalent position. Any speculation that he might become so in the distant future (provided his grandfather succeeds his mother, and that his father succeeds his own father, and that he himself again succeeds his father to a political position in maybe 60-70 years) is just speculation per WP:NOTCRYSTAL. Would we post the birth of Putin's son, or the birth of a new member of the Castro family (where family members succeed each others as head of state)? This is an outrageous example of tabloidization and of Anglo-centrism and violates all principles applied to other cases discussed here. Josh Gorand (talk) 22:15, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, in some countries, notability is inherited. And the world's press go to great lengths to ensure that remains the case. (Know exactly what you mean, though.) Martinevans123 (talk) 22:30, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That's not relevant. Heck, we don't even post it when the US Democratic Party choose their presidential candidate, which is a way more notable event than the birth of someone who is currently (under mechanisms that may very well change in the meantime) fourth is line to possibly succeed someone who possibly succeeds somesone who possibly succeeds a head of state in maybe 70 years. And the press gives such a way more influential event as the US Democratic Party choosing a presidential candidate a lot more media attention. But we don't post it, because it's country bias, and this is gross country bias too, more blatant and unencyclopedic than anything else previously seen on the main page. Josh Gorand (talk) 22:35, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * (Know exactly what you mean, though). Martinevans123 (talk) 22:40, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Can I just correct you a little. Although it's probably factually wrong anyway, I think you meant to say that the American press gives the choosing of a Democratic presidential candidate way more attention than this. Spot where the bias is. Formerip (talk) 22:43, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * (ec) Any "country bias" argument is invalid, as "Do not complain about an event only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one. This applies to a high percentage of the content we post and is unproductive." This is the "in the news" page and this birth is in the news. One purpose of ITN is to direct readers to articles they might be looking for on subjects that are in the news. It's isn't speculation that this child will be the King in the future, he will be; it is far more likely that he will be than he won't be. If you disagree with it being in the news, then speak to the press. 331dot (talk) 22:44, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's speculation that this person "will be King". Who says so? You? It's really up to the people who live in the country in question in around 70 years to decide. I find this crystal balling of yours rather unlikely, constitutions tend to change in such a timespan and more and more countries in the west tend to abolish non-democratic mechanisms such as this. We build an encyclopedia, and content is subject to encyclopedic standards. We don't post tabloid gossip merely because it's "in the news", a lot of similar tabloid stuff that get tons of media attention is not posted for this exact reason. If you disagree with that, maybe a blog would be a better medium. Josh Gorand (talk) 23:05, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not unencyclopedic that this birth occurred. It's not unencyclopedic that the child is in line to be King.  Yes, the monarchy could be abolished in the next 50 or 60 years.  In the next 50 years, the US could have a military coup and be ruled by a dictator, or abolish presidential elections and start a monarchy, or space aliens could invade and take over the Earth.  The 2014 Winter Olympics could be cancelled or boycotted.  Anything can happen with anything, that isn't a reason to post to ITN a story which is indeed in the news. 331dot (talk) 23:10, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The birth of Tony Blair's son got huge amounts of media attention too. Is that next? How about children of Paris Hilton? Or the drama surrounding Michael Jackson's family, which gets even more media attention than this non-event? Josh Gorand (talk) 23:14, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Tony Blair's son will not inherit the Prime Minister's office from his father. Paris Hilton is not the President of the United States (thank God) nor would her children automatically be so if she was.  Ditto with Michael Jackson.  Any other persons you want to ask about? For a "non-event" it is certainly getting a lot of coverage.  Again, if you dislike what the press covers, speak to them. 331dot (talk) 23:18, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Josh, even I who are totally against these "american and english instant notability" figures can see that your arguments are pure speculations. And you obviously need to read a article about British succession.--BabbaQ (talk) 23:19, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The guy is not the son of a head of state, but a great-grandson. It's crystal balling and nothing else that he "will be King" in almost a century (IF he outlives his father, and if nothing is changed in the meantime). He is not the crown prince, his grandfather is. So it's like posting the 4th in line expected to POSSIBLY become North Korea's leader after today's North Korean leader (and they do inherit the position too). Josh Gorand (talk) 19:15, 23 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - In comparison to most "only known for being english/american characters we approve of for ITN I would think this one is actually notable beyond being of a certain nationality.--BabbaQ (talk) 23:15, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * As l0on as its on ITN its NOT possibly a a stale discussion as it CAN be removedLihaas (talk) 21:03, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Unless you have something to discuss, you shouldn't re-open a discussion just for the possibility of further discussion. This has been discussed to death at WT:ITN by the only person to express opposition to this posting. 331dot (talk) 21:08, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[Posted] 2013 Dingxi Earthquakes

 * Support, significant, although I'm not 100% sure whether it should be counted as one earthquake or two shocks of it. Brandmeistertalk  09:33, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Moved to plural: 2013 Dingxi earthquakes. -Zanhe (talk) 17:49, 22 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - Casualties are in line with the types of earthquakes that we normally post. Article isn't ready just yet, however - it consists mostly of a series of one-sentence sections and some unclear wording. --Bongwarrior (talk) 09:30, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Expanded a bit, still working on it. -Zanhe (talk) 17:49, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Still needs some work, but almost there. It looks miles better than it did yesterday. --Bongwarrior (talk) 21:12, 22 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support, as per Bongwarrior. The BBC at least are considering one of the aftershocks as sufficiently major to use the term "earthquakes" rather than "earthquake". --LukeSurlt c 09:46, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - The article is still pretty thin. Not a whole lot on the damage and relief efforts yet. Jus  da  fax   10:25, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - per others.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 13:17, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - much better article now. Still needs some expanding, but the posting admin will make the final call. Jus  da  fax   21:49, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: Article still needs a lot of TLC. 2013_Dingxi_earthquakes needs coherent paragraphs and 2013_Dingxi_earthquakes definitely needs copyediting. As it reads now it looks like a non-native speaker of English wrote it.  Spencer T♦ C 22:09, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah. I've rewritten and expanded the whole article. Should be ready now. -Zanhe (talk) 23:41, 22 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Posted --  tariq abjotu  23:54, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] 2013 Wellington Earthquake

 * Oppose - There have been 11 quakes of 7.0 or greater so are this year, and 74 between 6.0 and 6.9. So, I'd guess around 30 of 6.5 or greater this year.  There doesn't appear to be anything to make this one worth posting at this time. --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:25, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose thank God as no fatalities and routine for the island, of no lasting or encyclopedic import, maybe DYK. μηδείς (talk) 01:30, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Fortunately no major damage or injury so it is not worth being posted. The deadly China earthquake that just occurred, on the contrary, should be considered. Jeanluc20 (talk) 04:13, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The China earthquake is probably a shoo-in whenever the article is ready. --Bongwarrior (talk) 06:11, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose It was quite a jolt (certainly gave me a fright when I saw the walls of the house swaying!), but the damage doesn't seem too bad and thankfully nobody has been killed. As Thaddeus said, earthquakes like this are nothing new here; we're used to them. Neljack (talk) 05:22, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose per ThaddeusB SeraV (talk) 06:43, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] French riots
"Wait summer riots in Paris are de rigeur. Against riots in free countries normally, but this is an interesting topic if something comes of it. μηδείς (talk) 01:33, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Relatively minor property damage; doesn't seem to be any significant casualties. No evidence of widespread coverage of this event. 331dot (talk) 00:44, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose unless this gets quite bit worse. SeraV (talk) 06:41, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose I think more people were injured and more cars burnt during the Nauru asylum seeker riots. YuMaNuMa Contrib 15:37, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose for now. Notable enough for an article but not an ITN listing at present. However, if things continue to escalate I'll be prepared to reassess. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 16:52, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] 2013 El Mordisco Attack

 * Comment. We shouldn't post something from Columbia just for the sake of doing so.  This seems like par for the course for that ongoing conflict- though attacks during peace negotiations are unusual.  Would prefer an article to evaluate before stating my final opinion. 331dot (talk) 00:48, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I was surprised when I saw this as a top story in The New York Times and BBC because, I and probably most others interested in current affairs thought that FARC relevancy ended with Alfonso Cano death and the aforementioned peace talks, as there was hardly any major news about the subject. The Colombian-FARC conflict has a bloody history that took hundreds of thousands of lives, forced more than a million others into exile, a major impact in the global drug trade and so forth during a 50 year span, thus an attack like this during peace talks to happen will likely has serious consequences for the entire region. Secret account 01:04, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I created an article and the incident(s) seem to be significant, so Support, if expanded by someone else. By the way, it looks like there were 2 clashes one on the 20th and one (presumably in the south) on the 21st (in the east). -- Ե րևանցի  talk  01:41, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support if this gets proper article, this will certainly not help peace negotiations there. Bbc reports now that on that attack which the blurb is about only 15 soldiers died, and 4 on that second attack. SeraV (talk) 07:08, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * comment pretty sure this is colOmbia (south america) not colUmbia (new york) so changing the blurb spelling (it was to a disambiguation page previously anyway). EdwardLane (talk) 08:36, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support due to potential impact on the peace process and because it is the deadliest attack since peace talks began. Article is now updated. --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:03, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Unsupported I am not really against this, but the conflict is reaching its 50th year, and as recently as 2010 almost 500 dead in a year was not uncommon. I'd rather we wait till the guns are laid down than post an incremental update.  Notice we have pretty much stopped reporting even bigger attacks in Iraq. μηδείς (talk) 02:03, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Such attacks happen almost daily in Iraq. Death toll isn't everything. --ThaddeusB (talk) 04:17, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted. --Bongwarrior (talk) 17:02, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] 2013 Tour de France Championship

 * Support: ITN/R sports event. Article will need a little prose. Alo note stage-by-stage details in 2013 Tour de France, Stage 1 to Stage 11 and 2013 Tour de France, Stage 12 to Stage_21. --LukeSurlt c 19:42, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support VaVaFroom. doktorb wordsdeeds 20:39, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support as an ITN/R event as well as one of the three major cycling tours. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 20:41, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per ITN/R. Miyagawa (talk) 20:57, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There's now quite a nice chunk of prose at Chris Froome. Looking at previous years, the article of the winner seems the more normal place for the prose update. --LukeSurlt c 21:39, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per ITN/R. I proposed an alternative blurb to keep it simple to even non-cyclists and the most casual cyclists. Donnie Park (talk) 21:56, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Alt. blurb ''In cycling, Chris Froome of Team Sky win the 100th edition of the Tour de France.


 * Posted Secret account 00:13, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Where is the update? - I am certainly not seeing anything in the bolded article. --ThaddeusB (talk) 00:33, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * For comparison, see the Giro update. --ThaddeusB (talk) 00:38, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It seems Chris Froome was updated, so I switched the bolding. --ThaddeusB (talk) 00:43, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support once updated, but I prefer having a blurb like In cycling, Chris Froome wins the 100th Tour de France. Nergaal (talk) 14:46, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] 2013 Open Championship

 * Support, All articles are updated.HotHat (talk) 19:29, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The update needs to be more substantial, either in the Phil Mickelson article or the 2013 Open Championship article. The latter could be updated by expanding the Final round section to about the length (or something close to the length) of the First round section. --  tariq abjotu  19:46, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support as an ITN/R event as well as one of the four major golf tournaments. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 20:43, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Updated - the article is now updated and presumably ready for posting --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:22, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted --  tariq abjotu  02:16, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Japanese House of Councillors election

 * Comment This election is not actually on ITNR, so I've removed that note. ITNR covers general elections, which this isn't - this is an election to one-half of the upper house of a legislature.  As for whether it should go up, I'm not sure: IIRC, we don't normally put up even U.S. House or Senate elections, unless there's something rather notable about it.  In this case, it's looking very likely that the LDP will finally reclaim control of both houses of the legislature in Japan, which does mark it above the ordinary.  I reserve judgement till I see more debate here. Redverton (talk) 20:30, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * AFAIK, the last US congressional elections weren't posted because (gasp!) they weren't updated, or the presidential election drowned out everything else. – H T  D  15:33, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose This is an election to, as Redverton stated, "one-half of the upper house of a legislature". Notable, yes, but, worthy of inclusion on ITN versus some other stories, no. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 20:45, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * FWIW, the nomination for the French Senate election, 2011 was support wholeheartedly (at least by those who cared to comment), only that it wasn't updated in time. A quick read shows that the Japanese upper house has approximately the same powers as its French counterpart, if not a little bit more powerful. – H T  D  15:33, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. If this body was more like the United States Senate, I might support, but this body can be overruled by the lower chamber of the Diet, meaning their powers are limited. 331dot (talk) 21:50, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

[posted] New King of the Belgians

 * Support. A change in head of state is ITNR.  Like the abdication of Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands, we posted both the announcement and the actual change. 331dot (talk) 09:05, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per 331dot, article needs moving to a new title though - Phillipe I of Belgium? Mjroots (talk) 10:05, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I think this should be Philippe of Belgium, taking the example of Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands. Could an administrator move the article. Hektor (talk) 10:28, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, related article is in good shape, so it should be posted soon.Egeymi (talk) 11:10, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. We posted the same story about two weeks ago, when it was announced. Formerip (talk) 11:59, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Are you sure? I don't see an ITN tag on the talk page.  Spencer T♦ C 19:19, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * We most certainly did. The article that was posted was Albert II of Belgium. It was missing an ITN tag, so I've added it. --  tariq abjotu  19:27, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * As I stated, we posted both the announcement and actual abdication of Beatrix. 331dot (talk) 20:38, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per 331dot. This only follows the precedent of posting the change on the Dutch throne.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 14:51, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per 331dot. --LukeSurlt c 20:06, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per 331dot. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 20:47, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per 331dot - hey, I may be the third person in a row to, but it's a solid argument. Redverton (talk) 22:00, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Not really. Are we saying that we are now going to post every change of head of state twice, once for the announcement and once for the coronation, inauguration or whatever? Formerip (talk) 22:20, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * For royal abdications, sure, seems sensible as both make the news (one's a shock, the other's a big fancy ceremony). Despite recent trends they really aren't that common. Ol' Lizzie is gunna cling to that throne with every scrap of strength she's got left for one. --LukeSurlt c 22:31, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I think that posting the announcement of an abdication should be weighed on its merits; the actual change in head of state is ITNR regardless. 331dot (talk) 22:47, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, when one thinks about, we often do post both the announcement and the coronation/inauguration, etc., since many heads of state are elected. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 23:12, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't believe we post inaugurations of elected heads of state(as a rule at least); we did not post President Obama's inauguration this year. In those cases, the election represents the change in head of state. 331dot (talk) 23:15, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeed, there has been a strong consensus against posting inaugurations of elected rulers. Given that, I find it quite bizarre that we seem quite willing to post the change of power twice in monarchy situations. --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:31, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with ThaddeusB, these really shouldn't be posted twice. SeraV (talk) 06:34, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It is more unusual for a hereditary ruler to voluntarily give up their throne than an elected leader losing their office(which happens by design). As I said above, announcements of monarchs voluntarily stepping down should be judged on their merits separate from the actual event, for this reason(which I think is why it was done with Beatrix and even the Pope). 331dot (talk) 10:15, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There is truth in your argument, I admit. And well these really don't happen that often. SeraV (talk) 12:38, 22 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Posted -- Jayron  32  22:39, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] RD: Mel Smith

 * Support. A very prominent person in British comedy. Thryduulf (talk) 16:56, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Awards? Honors? Influence? I'm not seeing sufficient significance to meet any of the death criteria. And "expectancy" of death is not a qualifier or disqualifier. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:00, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Mild oppose very prominent comedian but most likely not meeting the RD criteria because of lack of awards and international prominence. A shame as his death is quite a shock and having seen him on my telly box for 20 years, I think he'd make an ideal RD candidate, particularly after the Glee character waltzed it.  But hey, this is Wikipedia.  The Rambling Man (talk) 17:09, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That Glee character was cute enough to pass for someone half his age. I wouldn't let the sister I hate date this Mel guy. μηδείς (talk) 19:07, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I did miss the "dateability" criterion for RDs that obviously swung the Glee nom. Mel was funny and had a 30-year career, Glee-guy had one role for three seasons, presumably Tariq must post this based on that alone?  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:40, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That's the "date the sister you hate" criterion to be clear. I didn't vote for the Glee guy, he was posted before I had a chance to vote against him. μηδείς (talk) 21:03, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I get it. I guess it depends on Tariq's mood, whether or not this gets posted (although it has more support that I could ever have imagined).  The Rambling Man (talk)
 * Oh, so you're jumping on an opportunity to be obnoxious, are you? (And it looks like you have company.) At the time of posting, the death of Cory Monteith clearly had consensus, as people felt the prominence of the story in the news outweighed the breadth of his contributions. You could discover that the article on him was the most-read on Wikipedia this week, so perhaps they were on to something. But I suspect we'll continue to see you [and others] needlessly whining about this story, believing that I posted the story because of what I felt about the contributions of the individual or what I wanted to do, rather than what the sum of commenters at that point felt about the prominence of the story. It's petty enough to bring up Monteith in nominations that aren't comparable, but it's just low for you to then proceed to attack me personally. --  tariq abjotu  00:07, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Like this is relevant, so he was popular? That does not mean that he was important enough to post according the criteria that we should all use to post these. Actors are almost by definition popular, luckily popularity is not part of the criteria here, nor should it. You should just admit already that you made a mistake there. 84.248.131.49 (talk) 00:26, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There is no mistake to admit. I explained the matter a number of times there; among the purposes of ITN is "to help readers find and quickly access content they are likely to be searching for because an item is in the news". And yet some people still seem to think I should have discounted supports because they didn't agree with the claims of notability or didn't agree that the prominence of the story regarding his death mattered. There is simply no purpose to beating this dead horse. --  tariq abjotu  00:35, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Of course, well are you posting these two then (Mel Smith and Helen Thomas)? After all "recent death space is free" which is enough for you apparently already, and these have lot's of support as well. I admit that my support was a bit obnoxious too here, but it is also true, he really is quite famous and important comedian. Also that part of the rules you keep quoting is not relevant here, since dead people must meet 1 of the 3 criterias. 84.248.131.49 (talk) 00:44, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That Tariq comment came out of the blue, I was not expecting this turn and didn't realize it was Tariq who had posted Monteith, nor do I think he was wrong to. μηδείς (talk) 01:16, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Systemic bias alive is alive and kicking! If posting admins are entitled to ignore the criteria for posting RDs, little hope remains.  Sob. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:15, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It doesn't look lke systemic bias to me. This looks like User:Tariqabjotu bias. Once again I have very grave doubts about his suitability as the ITN gatekeeper, with specific regards to his statements in recent days and the tone above. doktorb wordsdeeds 09:53, 21 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support I like trucking, I like trucking, I like trucking and I like to truck.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 17:21, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I presume that's one of his bits? That doesn't give us who are unfamiliar with him any help. Convince me to change my vote. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:55, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * So you knew who Bert Trautmann was? Or anyone who has been listed in RD in the last 6 months?  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 08:21, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * While I don't expect it to convince you to change your vote, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9lmCpIzhFo will explain what Lugnuts is referring to. Thryduulf (talk) 20:51, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support On the edge of notability for RD, I suppose, but coverage around the world and let's not forget that bloke from Glee. Black Kite (talk) 17:31, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Started career with Rowan Atkinson and while overshadowed by him still had an huge and succesfull career. Very important british comedian. 84.248.131.49 (talk) 17:34, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Article/update needs work - there are a half dozen or so tags and the update is only 1 sentence long.  Both will need addressed before I can consider supporting. Also, most of the supports are utterly unconvincing - please explain why you think he is sufficiently important on his own merits.  --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:40, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I've tidied it up, referencing what can easily be sourced and removing unsourced and irrelevant trivia. I'llput some reactions to his death in later if no-one else does. Black Kite (talk) 19:12, 20 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support A very significant person in British commedy. --Bruzaholm (talk) 21:39, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "Significant" how? As far as I can tell, he was on a couple of successful shows, but that's it. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:25, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Boooyeaah well known in the UK. --85.210.109.89 (talk) 22:11, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * This isn't UKpedia. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:17, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Objections relating to an event or person being from a single country are not valid. This doesn't have to be UKpedia. 331dot (talk) 22:30, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * What a hilarious hypocrite Muboshgu is considering his below nomination. Just hilarious. --85.210.109.89 (talk) 22:37, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Being well known, no matter in how many countries, doesn't satisfy the death criteria. And has nothing to do with the nomination I made. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:18, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * How well known someone is is an indication of notability in their field. It's not the only factor, but it is there. 331dot (talk) 00:29, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. If we posted the actor from Glee we can surely post this one who had a longer career and was probably more well known. 331dot (talk) 22:30, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. I thought it was Mel Smith who passed away, otherwise I would had put more weight to the support. Same reason as the others, if we let this Glee guy in (and who is he), then we may as well let him in since he is a prominent name in British comedy. Donnie Park (talk) 22:42, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If you click on the YouTube link just below, about half a minute in or something, you will see that the Glee guy is Mel Smith's comedy partner. Thank you Tim. Formerip (talk) 23:22, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * One mistake doesn't justify another. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:19, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9km3-fWJ7sg Nestrs (talk) 23:14, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - if the only justification for posting is the "the Glee guy" was posted, then there apparently is no justification for posting. Whether one agrees with the posting of Monteith or not, the situations are not obviously comparable.  As an admin, I would give little to no weight to most of the support votes - please make a case based on Mr. Smith's merits if you want this posted. --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:14, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Fair enough but you should also oppose then based on his merits or lack of them, there is no real reason to oppose in your post. 84.248.131.49 (talk) 01:32, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * My oppose is based on the lack of demonstrated importance. It is not my responsibility to prove there is insufficient notability, but rather the responsibility of supports to prove there is sufficient notability.  So far, few have even tried. --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:38, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Your responsibility is to read his article I am fairly certain. Not just read what people say here. If you have read that and still oppose, fair enough. 84.248.131.49 (talk) 01:49, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * To be clear, nothing I have read - in the article, in the news, or here - convinces me. I don't see any significant awards, and no one has really attempted to argue for exceptional coverage or cultural impact. --ThaddeusB (talk) 16:20, 21 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose per TRM. Neljack (talk) 02:02, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There is some consensus (even after discounting most of the supports which are either OMG Glee was posted this should be to or YouTube links with no evidence of importance) to post as RD has a slightly lower threshold plus there is a free space, but where is the update? Secret account 03:01, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Muboshgu. Has he won any honors/awards in recognition of his importance in the field? Not really, at least according to the article as it's currently written.  Spencer T♦ C 05:43, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Significant writer in two comedy shows still respected today, director and producer, helped set up significantly large (and successful) production company TalkBack. Only one flop that I can think of ("Morons from Outer Space"). doktorb wordsdeeds 07:43, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support the guy did actually seem to have some accomplishments beyond his recognizable looks: lead in two shows, owned production company. Just needs two sentence update to go, μηδείς (talk) 16:03, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. We're starting to get really low on the actor notability meter here. fwiw I'd have opposed the Glee one as well. Wizardman  16:13, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support as per doktorb. Three other thoughts.
 * Firstly, someone having received awards should count somewhat to showing that they were rated highly in their field but the lack of awards should not normally count against them. In the Helen Thomas discussion it says "Orson Welles never won an Oscar for directing. Mark Twain never won a Nobel Prize. F. Scott Fitzgerald never won a Pulitzer for fiction", awards can be made for seemingly capricious reasons and so someone who is significant can miss out.  So I don't think that a lack of awards should count against Mel Smith, nor against Cory Monteith.  [As an aside.  I think that a lack of awards might count against Helen Thomas as she had retired & was old.  Organisations tend to give give lifetime achievement awards to people who are believed to have missed out on 'proper' awards.]
 * Secondly, the reason that he is know to many people only from two programmes from a long time ago is because he has subsequently done a lot of non-screen work. He (and Rhys Jones) made Talkback into a company worth GBP62 million.
 * Thirdly, the comparison with Cory Monteith has some validity but there is an element of apples and oranges here. Monteith's fame amongst the general populace is currently high because Glee is currently on air and to honestly compare against that you have to think about  Smith dying whilst Alas Smith and Jones was at the height of its popularity.  I cannot find any figures but it was very popular when originally broadcast.
 * FerdinandFrog (talk) 16:36, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * But the Glee guy was so popular that it simply had to be posted, regardless of the fact it failed to meet any of the RD criteria. Actual facts and adherence to criteria didn't get in the way of that ITN posting, apparently short-lived popular American TV stars have a free pass.  Maybe we should add it to ITN/R.  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:31, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It's been a long established, unwritten, principle at ITN that with deaths if the person who died is young and in the middle of their career we can lower the threshold of notability. Thus it's simply not an apt comparison and really isn't helping along this nomination.--Johnsemlak (talk) 21:27, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * So Wikipedia is working at the level of a tabloid newspaper? I thought we were better than that. Clearly I was wrong. Black Kite (talk) 23:30, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Hah! I have worked at a tabloid newspaper.  This is more like a low-scale chimp-typist civil war. μηδείς (talk) 01:37, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Request Can an admin other than User:Tariqabjotu look at this please? doktorb wordsdeeds 20:14, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd post it right now, but I've already commented on it. Black Kite (talk) 23:30, 21 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Updated technically, but with "found dead" and "nice guy" comments, not "groundsbreaking" comments. I am not sure why Tariq should neither post nor give his reservations if he wants. μηδείς (talk) 21:37, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment. I'm strongly against the criticism of Tariq that's been going on in this thread and elsewhere.  To comment specifically: 1.  As far as I can remember, he never posts without considering the ITN criteria.  As far as I can remember he always posts with a detailed rationale and carefully considers both criteria and ITN consensus (which can at times overrule ITN guidelines).  2.  He is not a 'gatekeeper'.  He is one of 7 admins who has edited the ITN template only in the last two days, and one of many more in recent history and several admins are active on this particular nomination.  3. Several admins besides Tariq have already expressed reservations about this nom or opposed.--Johnsemlak (talk) 21:41, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That comment belongs on the talk page, not here. This thread is not about Tariq. μηδείς (talk) 21:46, 21 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Ready marked ready given 2 to 1 support. Yes some of the votes are "monteith", but the nom did have two leads in series (compare Jack Klugman) and was cofounder largest comedy production busines in Britain. μηδείς (talk) 21:43, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted though after Thomas as his death happened a day prior to her. Secret account 00:07, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] RD: Helen Thomas

 * Support I came here with the intention of nominating this. I actually think she is notable enough to justify an entry in the main section rather than just RD.  For decades she was present at nearly every presidential press conference, and often got to ask questions. Looie496 (talk) 14:41, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, when she became the senior wire reporter in the perss corps, she got to ask the first question at every briefing. Until she left UPI for Hearst in 2000. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:50, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support There is a couple of uncited lines near the top, but otherwise the article is in very good shape. Miyagawa (talk) 15:07, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per nominator. – Randor1980 TALK•CONTRIBUTIONS 15:19, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Update needs work - update consists of one sentence at current. That is insufficient for ITN purposes. Otherwise, article looks good. --ThaddeusB (talk) 16:09, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Working on it. I added statements from Judy Woodruff, Andrea Mitchell, and Dana Perino. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:19, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Minimum requirements are now met, so I am neutral on the nomination. --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:30, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support seems to be a very prominent person in US political journalism. Thryduulf (talk) 16:57, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak support I don't see the BBC using terms like "pioneer" without justification. Just because I'm not completely commensurate with her impact (because I'm outside the US), it shouldn't stop me supporting the nomination, albeit mildly. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:12, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose she had mild notoriety as a curmudgeon who occasionally insulted a president and for her rabid anti-semitism. She was certainly nowhere near the top of any field--just recognizable when occasionally seen on TV. μηδείς (talk) 17:55, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support according to her wiki page there were at some point anyway journalist awards given in her name, and with career that spanned 60 years I think she certainly qualifies. 84.248.131.49 (talk) 18:12, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose this is a first rate example of the press glamorizing one of its former members. Hot Stop talk-contribs 18:41, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * support came here for this and her controversy (let alone career as the longest WH correspondent) was recent.(Lihaas (talk) 19:06, 20 July 2013 (UTC)).
 * Are you saying her anti-semitism is a reason to support her nomination? μηδείς (talk) 19:23, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Who ever said she's anti-Semetic? She was Semetic. She was anti-Zionist. What does any of this have to do with her accomplishments, anyway? – Muboshgu (talk) 19:26, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Are you Lihaas? Did you just answer why the controversy surrounding her would be a reason to post according to Lihaas? μηδείς (talk) 19:33, 20 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support for RD. Widely recognized by other journalists and some of the Presidents she questioned as significant in her field.  331dot (talk) 19:52, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * So widely recognized for her work she never won a Pulitzer Prize. Hot Stop talk-contribs 19:57, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Specific awards, while a consideration, are not the be-all end-all in making someone notable. She has won awards.  331dot (talk) 19:59, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm aware she won other awards. But she didn't win the award that matters most in her field. The fact is she isn't Woodward and Bernstien -- she never broke any major stories. Or actual journalism as it is called. Hot Stop talk-contribs
 * Orson Welles never won an Oscar for directing. Mark Twain never won a Nobel Prize.  F. Scott Fitzgerald never won a Pulitzer for fiction.  This really isn't a winning argument.  Gamaliel  ( talk ) 02:07, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Orson Welles didn't sit in the White House press room a few times a year as the president spoke and insult him Rumplestiltskin-like either. It's rather unclear what her not winning a prize for her investigative journalism or brilliant writing says in her favor. What field does her not winning prizes put her at the top of? μηδείς (talk) 02:26, 21 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose. She certainly qualifies, but the article is appalling and should not be linked to the main page. For someone who had a 60-year career and reached the top of her profession, far too much coverage is given to the supposedly controversial comments she retired over. The article is 3,800 words long and less than half of those words are not about that incident. Formerip (talk) 20:07, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I trimmed it some, since it was a little too much, but I don't know that any more should be cut, as it was a major controversy that led directly to her leaving the press corps. Even if it is still too long, I don't think that it's so bad that it shouldn't go up on the front page, and I hope you reconsider your !vote. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:32, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It's directly relevant to the nomination. Helen Thomas was basically the bugaboo of the press corps from the time of the Carter administration. She was much better known for "there goes Helen Thomas again" moments except to a small cadre of admirers who enjoyed her rude, and finally career-ending antics.  She sometimes was the story, but she didn't break any.  She was certainly not an important journalist in the sense of Woodward and Bernstein or even Andrew Breitbart.  If she's posted it will be as a celebrity along the lines of (but much less notable to the average American than) Mel Smith, not as a professional newswoman. μηδείς (talk) 21:51, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I know nothing about her except what I have read in the article, so I'm not denying the relevance to the nomination or her article. But there is no way that a two-minute conversation can merit taking up half of her bio, given that she was in the public spotlight for sixty years. It's just an embarrassing collision of WP:RECENT and WP:POVPUSH. Formerip (talk) 23:12, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I would say the problem is not the amount of material about the incident, but rather the limited description of the rest of her career. --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:18, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - Longtime questioner of presidents with a notable career. Early female journalist and iconoclastic reporter. Certainly worthy of an RD mention on ITN. Article shortcomings exist but do not justify an oppose, in my view. Jus  da  fax   22:24, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose It's clearly not certain what is the specific field she was famous and respected in. If she was so because of the longevity of her career and the fact she served ten US presidents, then it would have surely made her much more notable and influential. We cannot simply post her death because of the records for being the "first female in something paltry". Please first resolve these issues and explain what are the things that she influenced in the US politics or anything else in the world before to convince me vote the opposite.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 22:32, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * To clarify, she held no political position. She sat in the White House press room as a journalist and usually placed one question per conference to either the president or, more usually, his press secretary.  This is what Sam Donaldson is known for having done, if you are familiar with him.  She then wrote a weekly column or more when news warranted it.  She was much more famous for occasionally asking presidents hostile and loaded questions than anything she ever wrote, and she had no effect on political developments. μηδείς (talk) 02:33, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for clearing it up, but it doesn't seem something important either.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 09:58, 21 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support per nominator. An institution.  Gamaliel  ( talk ) 22:48, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support The quotes in the article (from figures ranging from Fidel Castro to Dana Perino, as well as various journalists and news articles) would seems to establish that she "was widely regarded as a very important figure in her field". I would, however, like to see the sections in her article on the controversial comments further trimmed, per WP:Undue. Neljack (talk) 01:58, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support (preferably blurb) or RD, you can easily argue that Thomas was probably the most influential female journalist in history. Being a political reporter at a time that it was a field fully dominated by men and female journalists mostly were regulated to the gossip or society pages is groundbreaking (Another candidate for "most influential" Katherine Graham was a publisher). Secret account 02:52, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Ignoring the imbalanced weight of the article, the update on the death itself seems like it could be better. --  tariq abjotu  03:15, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: As mentioned by Tariq, the article is horribly imbalanced. The infobox says that her "years active" was 1943–2013, yet it seems that over 90% of the text written about her career is about events after 2000.  Spencer T♦ C 05:46, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, a lot of people have mentioned that; I was just repeating. --  tariq abjotu  05:50, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Update I've trimmed the Playboy interview section, which was just three paragraphs on her talking about the Palestine comment. I've added a bunch more for her earlier career as well, so hopefully it's a little less slanted towards the more recent events. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:19, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Not perfect, of course, but that definitely seems to help. --  tariq abjotu  16:01, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. It's not perfect indeed, but it's not terrible either. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:23, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support I can't believe that there's any debate about this. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:50, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Highly important in her field. --LukeSurlt c 15:31, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted --  tariq abjotu  15:58, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Costa Concordia trial

 * Oppose We posted the original disaster; the manslaughter convictions afterward aren't as important.  Spencer T♦ C 16:01, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose based on this quote in the BBC News article, "Prosecutor Francesco Verusio told reporters that Capt Schettino's trial was the most important.". When even the prosecutors talk about this being minor it really isn't that significant. Possibly this might be covered in the blurb when the verdict on the Captain happens (trial due to resume in September). Thryduulf (talk) 17:03, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose These are the small fish in this case, according to that bbc article they agreed to plea pargain and are even unlikely to ever sit on a jail. Now when Captain of that ship is sentenced I think we should report that whatever the result might be. 84.248.131.49 (talk) 17:32, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Only a conviction of the Captain should be posted. 331dot (talk) 19:58, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support I can't say I really care about the nomination, but I have to say I am surprised a conviction on manslaughter in this case isn't going up, regardless of whether it's the captain scapegoated in the press. This is a major conviction in an historic shipwreck case. μηδείς (talk) 22:05, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It's a conviction, yes, but the prosecutors, victims groups and media all say that it's minor. About half the BBC article is not about this conviction but about the Captain's trial. Thryduulf (talk) 06:25, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Doesn't warrant posting.  ★ ★KING RETROLORD★ ★  09:41, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Asylum in Australia

 * There's been a strong consensus in the past against posting policy announcements. I could see posting the Australian government firing on boats or one sinking, as that would be an historic incident. But a policy announcement is basically a something that hasn't happened yet. μηδείς (talk) 18:55, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * As a side note, these boats sink all the time, so that wouldn't qualify at ITN either. Unless it was absolutely huge, the current record is 300+ deaths from memory.  ★ ★ RetroLord★ ★  04:40, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Simple policy change; if as Medeis says it results in something tragic (or was in response to a specific tragic incident) then we might have something. 331dot (talk) 20:55, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Australia has a federal election coming up, possibly within weeks. This is part of the election campaign. If the current opposition wins (a strong probability), something different will happen. If the government wins, something different could happen. (Ever seen a politician break a promise?) Wait to see what really happens. HiLo48 (talk) 21:29, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Fortunately, the circus known as Australian asylum seeker policy isn't notable enough for ITN. This is about our 200th policy in 10 years.  ★ ★ RetroLord★ ★  03:02, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * On the plus side, the article (which surprisingly didn't exist before yesterday) is evolving quite nicely. --ThaddeusB (talk) 15:21, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - I believe the policy change is significant and agree with ThaddeusB that the article is now Main page material. With all due respect to opposers, including resident HiLo48, I feel this is a very good time to put up an article about "Down Under." Jus  da  fax   10:33, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Navalny freed

 * Comment See the original nomination below; this doesn't need a separate nomination. --  tariq abjotu  18:14, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment already pulled having been noted at WP:ERRORS for a while. The release is not significant, just part of the "legal" process.  The Rambling Man (talk) 18:15, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * So what should we have in the news for Navalny? Leave it as it is, no update? -- Ե րևանցի talk  18:27, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It's been removed, there's nothing much to report right now. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:30, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * OK -- Ե րևանցի talk  18:33, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] RD: Bert Trautmann

 * SupportFeatured article, very nice, but doesn't have anything about his death?  ★ ★ RetroLord★ ★  12:49, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Three sentences in the Personal life section, all referenced, more to come as it filters through. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:01, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Changed to support,  ★ ★ RetroLord★ ★  13:08, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Typically I wouldn't be sure, but the very high article quality describing his life and career is to me a solid example of the type of content we should encourage at RD.  Spencer T♦ C 16:07, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - significant player and influence in post-war relations between the British and Germans. Mjroots (talk) 17:56, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support a ManU legend -- Ե րևանցի talk  18:04, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You mean City, right? The Rambling Man (talk) 18:16, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * haha yes -- Ե րևանցի talk  18:29, 19 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Altblurb "Captured decorated Nazi converted to soccer superman who won British final with broken neck dies"? μηδείς (talk) 19:01, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Perfect summation to us Brits who hold him in such high and unique esteem. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:09, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted --  tariq abjotu  19:12, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment This was an appalling discussion for a global encyclopaedia. The sport this guy played wasn't mentioned until the very end. We have to stop writing as if the audience already knows what we're talking about. HiLo48 (talk) 21:34, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, after all, you obviously couldn't have clicked on the link: Bert Trautmann (or the link in the nomination comments) and discovered all this to be true? The "audience" seldom gets involved in this cess pit, what's your real issue here?  RD means his name gets put up in lights, nothing more....  The Rambling Man (talk) 21:38, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh come off the grass. Simple question. Why didn't the blurb, or the title, or the nominator's comment, name the sport? HiLo48 (talk) 21:46, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Because I guess the sources provided covered that issue? There is no blurb (it's RD), there is no title (it's RD) and the comment was linked to sources describing his legendary status.  Did you actually read the nomination?  The Rambling Man (talk) 22:10, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I did, and it didn't name the sport. My goal here is simply to raise the standard of discussion. We are a global encyclopaedia. We must write for all of our audience. I wouldn't write about an Australian footballer without naming the sport. HiLo48 (talk) 22:21, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you've confused "audience" with "editors"! The article the audience reads is a featured one, which is clear about the nature of Bert's prominence.  Here, as editors, we expect a level of competence which means internal and external links provides sufficient background.  Cheers!  The Rambling Man (talk) 22:27, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I say again, with a minor clarification, I wouldn't write on this page about an Australian footballer without naming the sport. Makes it easier for everybody. Just trying to make it all work better :-) HiLo48 (talk) 22:37, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Pandoravirus

 * Support based on very radical difference from any known life form. μηδείς (talk) 23:39, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd like the article to explain how it is radically different before supporting. In fact, I'd like the article to be expanded quite a bit. Abductive  (reasoning) 01:14, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The article needs only three paragraphs to be eligible as a new article for ITN, which it meets. The organism is reported the largest known virus, apparently with hundreds of genes, while the average virus has less than a dozen.  See National Geographic  delaying this until there's a huge corpus on this will only mean guaranteeing the nomination goes stale. μηδείς (talk) 01:42, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The article should state these facts, no? Abductive  (reasoning) 01:46, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It does to some point. (It was edited more recently than your first question). I am leery of adding side material that may be seen as clarificatory by some and fluff by others. I suppose the judgment to be made is, how much do we need to spoonfeed the layman.  I think the nominator would be a better judge of that than me. μηδείς (talk) 03:24, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There's a difficult conflict here. Normally the rule we follow in scientific articles is to avoid "recentism" -- to not use information until it has been thoroughly reviewed by the field.  But if we followed that rule rigorously, we would never be able to have news stories about science.  On the other hand, churning out a long and detailed article about something on the very day its discovery is reported doesn't seem right either.  My view is that the best approach is to report the discovery with a short article, and then gradually expand the article as the information solidifies. Looie496 (talk) 03:44, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, it would be bad to use any superlatives put out by the scientists themselves. For example, "radically different" is pure hype and scientifically meaningless. Best to stick to the facts. Abductive  (reasoning) 04:23, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "Radically different" was my choice of words in my support comment here. But do feel free to blame the scientists for putting the phrase in the blurb if it helps.  Looie has given the proper opinion on not padding out articles on new discoveries. μηδείς (talk) 04:48, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That language was in an earlier version of the article. (And put there by User:Looie496) Nevertheless, I
 * Support posting now that the article is in better shape. Abductive  (reasoning) 05:47, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I have paraphrased Looie again, and added a slightly more concise alblurb. :) μηδείς (talk) 18:22, 19 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment. Before posting anything based on a research paper we need, as a bare minimum, quotes from experts independent of the research expressing general credulity and a sense of awe within the field. That's as a bare minimum. Formerip (talk) 19:45, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The paper was peer reviewed, which indicates it has been credited by its peers. Credulity is not the word you mean to use here, FormerIP; it means something else. μηδείς (talk) 19:49, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No I mean credulity. Have they discovered a giant virus or is it, as suggested in passing by one of the news articles, possibly a small bacterium?
 * Pandoravirus is a closer match to the amoebas they infect. (See page 11.) Abductive  (reasoning) 03:35, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Peer review gives us some degree of confidence that the research is sound (although, even in that case, consider Andrew Wakefield). It doesn't tell us anything about whether the the findings and proposals of the authors are important or uncontroversial. Formerip (talk) 20:12, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Credulity means gullibility--being likely to believe nonsense. I highly doubt that's a quality you are looking for to show the nomination is well-supported. μηδείς (talk) 22:28, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, Nature opines that it might well be important. That holds more weight than Science clapping itself on the back. As you may have noticed, I generally am not a fan of hyped-up science news stories. But this has a chance of being a new Domain. So, if this doesn't get posted but crap about a new frog species does, it just makes ITN look bad. Abductive  (reasoning) 20:18, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know if you meant to link to Nature, but you linked to Science.
 * My bad, here is the Nature link. Abductive  (reasoning) 01:19, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posting any science story without exposing it to basic rigour makes ITN look bad. Formerip (talk) 20:49, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Of course, but my argument is based on what could not be better secondary commentary for this sort of story at such short notice. Abductive  (reasoning) 01:21, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It's a legitimate point, but I think the New York Times story addresses it. A New York Times story is itself a mark of importance, because their science writers have expertise in the topics they write about, but also the NYT story includes quotes from two independent experts in the field.  I don't think those quotes belong in our article, but they are useful in supporting the importance of the story. ("Dr. Embley and other researchers hail pandoraviruses as an important discovery. 'I think it’s wonderful that such crazy and divergent lifeforms continue to be discovered,' said Tom Williams, Dr. Embley’s colleague at Newcastle University.") Looie496 (talk) 20:28, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * An article in the NYT proves that a story is in some sense newsworthy, not that it reaches the threshold for ITN. The BBC wesbite doesn't seem to be covering this at all (although they have published a number of science stories today).
 * And you're selectively quoting. Williams quote basically says "neat" rather than "groundbreaking" in any case, but paired with the other quote ("They provide no evidence for that notion, so it seems a distraction to me"), I don't think the case is at all made. Formerip (talk) 20:49, 19 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - A rare and potentially very important discovery. (Coverage + potential importance is all we can expect for ITN - proven importance is not possible in a "news" setting.)  The NYT article and discussion above are sufficient to prove to me that we should be covering this. --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:41, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted --  tariq abjotu  19:50, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Snow Line

 * Comment It's difficult to tell whether this is important. All of the cited sources (and every other source I can find) are taken directly from a press release or from interviews with the authors of the paper.  As far as I can tell, there are no stories with critical evaluation from outsiders, which is the mark of a reliable science story.  I would like to see stories from good science outlets such as the BBC, New York Times, or Scientific American before I would consider supporting this. Looie496 (talk) 23:16, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The news here seems to be that this is the first time, according to the source, such a snow line has been "imaged" (not sure how that's different from detected). But it's certainly not unexpected.  It seems a bit too incremental for an ITN lead, better for a portal. μηδείς (talk) 03:21, 19 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Hun? Isn't it self-evident that at some "line" the temperature is low enough for this to occur?  What exactly is supposed to be significant here?  I am struggling to see any significant within astronomy, let alone why this would be of any interest to a general reader.  If there is some reason to post this, please explain.  However, there are literally hundreds of "first ever" discoveries every day - every scientific paper that is not in direct response to another is in principle reporting the discovery of something. --ThaddeusB (talk) 05:08, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose due to lack of significance. Even within astronomy, this has caused no story whatsoever. It's a minor advance, nothing more. There isn't even any particular importance to the CO snow line, except that CO is relatively easy to observe.. Certainly not enough for ITN. <b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b> talk 17:44, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Minor scientific advancements don't warrant ITN posts.  ★ ★KING RETROLORD★ ★  09:43, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Detroit Bankruptcy

 * Support - definitly for ITN, an entire city going bankrupt.--BabbaQ (talk) 21:00, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support in principle but would need to see an article and blurb first. Headline story on CNN.com right now. Also on the front of the BBC's page (the main page, not the US section). As I understand it, the bankruptcy is the largest Chapter 9 one by far. 331dot (talk) 21:12, 18 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose ...without much further justification. Companies go bankrupt every day. What exactly is going bankrupt here? HiLo48 (talk) 21:13, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, just an entire city of hundreds of thousands of people. 331dot (talk) 21:16, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That sounds impressive, but what does it mean to anybody? How does it affect the residents? The property owners? The businesses? Who DOES it affect? A city going bankrupt isn't something that happens where I come from. It's really not obvious to me what this really means. HiLo48 (talk) 21:20, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It will affect the city's creditors, the city's services, and most especially the city's retirees and employees (pensions, wages, and benefits are usually some of the first things to see deep cuts in bankruptcy.) It will affect the city's credit rating, meaning that it will have to charge higher interest in bond issues, leaving less money for future projects and operating costs. It may well scupper some long-term projects, although that's unlikely (the alternative without declaring bankruptcy was probably abandoning them anyway). And so on. Also, I do believe this is the largest municipal bankruptcy in the US ever (the next largest Stockton, California, about half Detroit's size). Lockesdonkey (talk) 21:27, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Pretty major city going under, and the largest in the U.S. to file for bankruptcy. It's RoboCop coming to life, without the RoboCop to save us. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:30, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - Largest municipal bankruptcy in American history, with large numbers of creditors and residents effected by the declaration. Hello32020 (talk) 21:45, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support A truly peculiar story. Once the fourth largest US city, then desolate and now even bankrupt. --hydrox (talk) 21:49, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Not to mention its loss of featured status this year. Poor Detroit. --  tariq abjotu  21:55, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Certainly something that we should report, i do think this needs it's own article however. 84.248.131.49 (talk) 22:04, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Question what is the precise legal entity that has filed for bankruptcy? I would assume we probably have an article on that. --LukeSurlt c 22:12, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Government of Detroit I presume. Should that be bold or Detroit? --LukeSurlt c 22:16, 18 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support and who didn't see this coming? --Somchai Sun (talk) 22:23, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Certainly unusual, particularly for such a large city, and it does seem that it is likely to have a major impact. Neljack (talk) 23:22, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Post it already?  ★ ★ RetroLord★ ★  01:21, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Needs Update there are various targets, Detroit, Decline of Detroit. none are even close to updated. μηδείς (talk) 01:32, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - There is now an article on the bankruptcy: Detroit bankruptcy, 2013. Hello32020 (talk) 02:04, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That seems like an ideal target article. It has some minor issues I will work on.  I have moved it to the simpler Detroit bankruptcy and created the redirect bankruptcy of Detroit. μηδείς (talk) 02:42, 19 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Ready the target article has been updated and referenced and the bare url tag removed. This is quite well pdated and supported at this point. μηδείς (talk) 03:09, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I would disagree. The body of the article talks about what led to Detroit's bankruptcy, but it doesn't actually talk about the filing itself; the Bankruptcy Filing section is rather slim at the moment. (P.S. I notice this is the second time you've used double brackets rather than single brackets in the header around "Ready".) --  tariq abjotu  03:20, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Feel free to fix the brackets issue if it happens again. The nominated article will be stale if we wait for bunches of technical details--one reason for ITN is to get such improvements from interested readers.  It is well referenced, relevant, updated, and the nomination is hugely supported. There's no need to start adding new requirements on top of ITN noms. μηδείς (talk) 03:55, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Insisting that a target article include information about the actual event up for nomination is not "adding new requirements"; those are the requirements. That being said, was kind enough to provide the required update in the time since my comment here. --  tariq abjotu  04:06, 19 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Posted --  tariq abjotu  04:19, 19 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Question What did we actually post here? A big city going bankrupt? The biggest? (We don't often post records, because they can be broken.) A famous city? As somebody asked above, what actually went bankrupt? I'm pretty sure this couldn't happen in my country. Is this something that could only happen in the USA? I'm still really unclear on what this is all about. HiLo48 (talk) 08:08, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Please read Lockesdonkey's post above, he explained it pretty well. Any government anywhere can go bankrupt if their debt exceeds their ability to pay it; Greece would have if not for being bailed out. (The US federal govt. said they would not bail out Detroit)  If the government has no money to function, it cannot do so.  This event is also representative of the decline of a major city in the world at one point (Detroit was once the fourth-largest US city) which does not happen every day. 331dot (talk) 09:49, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I suspect the cause of confusion (not clarified in Lockesdonkey's otherwise very helpful post) is the use of the term 'City' to refer to the Government of the City, as I understand it Detroit per se isn't bankrupt (and it is hard to see how a city in the broad sense could be), but its local government is? ReadingOldBoy (talk) 10:46, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, it seems that editors here are using "city" to mean something quite different from City. That really needs to be made clearer. And I really doubt if Greece is a valid comparison. It cannot do a Chapter 9, whatever that is. HiLo48 (talk) 12:49, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Absolutely nothing is preventing you from researching Chapter 9 bankruptcy.--WaltCip (talk) 12:51, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Would you demand that an American research the equivalent legislation for another country? This is the most US-centric posting this week by far. We are a global encyclopaedia. We must act more globally. HiLo48 (talk) 21:23, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "Do not complain about an event only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one. This applies to a high percentage of the content we post and is unproductive." Also, this could have affects beyond just Detroit; anyone who loaned them money, collects retirement benefits from them, etc. is affected.  331dot (talk) 21:29, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * False accusation. I have not complained that the nomination affected only one country. I am complaining about the very poor explanation of what this event actually is. HiLo48 (talk) 21:42, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It is not false. You said "This is the most US-centric posting this week by far.". 331dot (talk) 21:55, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, to ease your paranoia (Why ARE people from the world's most powerful nation so defensive?) let's change that to "This is the most US-centric conversation this week by far." HiLo48 (talk) 22:01, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Based on the eleven asterisks I see, the only one acting defensive here is you. Ease off.--WaltCip (talk) 01:50, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Defensive? Stupid choice of adjective for me. My aim here is to improve the standard of discussion. This posting was based on very poorly worded argument, with lot's of missing information. (Note that I am not opposing it. I just had a lot of questions, and still do.) It could have been a lot better. If an equivalent story for a country other than say the US or the UK was proposed and discussed in the same shallow and parochial way, it wouldn't stand a chance. HiLo48 (talk) 01:58, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I think if Melbourne's government went bankrupt it would be incredibly newsworthy.--WaltCip (talk) 02:27, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Melbourne's "government" cannot go bankrupt, or at least certainly not in the same way. To my knowledge no Australian municipality has ever "gone bankrupt". There is no equivalent situation in this country and, I suspect, many others. That's why I was asking questions. They haven't been answered. It didn't cross the minds of the nominator and American supporters, and you, despite my efforts, that things might work differently elsewhere, and that a little more explanation may have been desirable. HiLo48 (talk) 02:58, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * This needs to be taken elsewhere at this point. The United States is a federation of fifty sovereign states, each of which has its own constitution and each of which is divided into municipalities which derive their authority from the state according to state law.  Michigan as a sovereign state appointed a financial controller for one of its municipalities, Detroit, under its state law.  That controller has determined the city is bankrupt, and has appealed to the federal government, in one of its few powers above the states, to file for municipal bankruptcy.  The federal government is not authorized to bail out Detroit or any state or municipality, and Michigan has chosen not to do so either.  If the suit proceeds, the creditors of the City of Detroit will find they are getting pennies on the dollar what's owed them, including pensioners whom, by state law, the city would not otherwise have been able to default on.  But federal law is supreme in this matter, as it is anywhere it constitutionally conflicts with state law.  Full stop.  What used to be the richest per capita city in the nation has gone begging to the federal government under a 1937 law for relief from its creditors.  Full stop.  It is unprecedented, at least 4-5 times larger than any such prior bankruptcy.  Full stop.  Hundreds of thousands of people will lose their pensions, in a default larger than the size of Malta or Tasmania.  Full stop.  We have a reference desk where questions such as this can be further investigated if the Detroit bankruptcy and other articles linked to in its lea are not sufficient.  Full stop. End telegram.  μηδείς (talk) 04:28, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment apparently not so straight-forward, our blurb will need revision or pulling per this. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:43, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Pull I agree with Rambling Man, not much here now I think. Repost if court of appeals disagree with judge. 84.248.131.49 (talk) 21:16, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * pull its unconstitutional and has to be nullified/withdrawn. Hence no story here.Lihaas (talk) 21:30, 19 July 2013 (UTC)


 * It is unclear if a state judge can order a party to a federal case to drop their action- we should wait to see if this is the final word before pulling; though a blurb reword would be OK for now. 331dot (talk) 21:31, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose pulling Detroit filed for bankruptcy is a fact. Even if some judge orders them to withdraw. Its been a major news for 2 days... if it were to be withdrawn then edit the blurb to say so, no need to pull. -- Ashish-g55 23:15, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * This is a county circuit judge who seems to have overstepped her bounds on a political basis, threatening to "notify" President Obama who is entirely without jurisdiction in the case. μηδείς (talk) 00:18, 20 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose pulling: bankruptcy is an exclusively federal matter in the US; this is a state circuit court judge who has no jurisdiction to dismiss a bankruptcy filing. Even with her ruling, the City of Detroit has still declared that it is insolvent to the appropriate and competent court of law, it has still requested relief under Chapter 9 of the Federal Bankruptcy Code, and no state judge has jurisdiction to challenge such a federal court filing.  Imzadi 1979  →   02:24, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Imzadi. It is nice to hear something so clearly and competently put. μηδείς (talk) 03:00, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] 2013 Maccabiah Games

 * Oppose Hardly a top-level event, given that competitors are limited on a racial basis. Nor does it get a lot of international attention. Neljack (talk) 23:42, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Opppose Oddly sectarian. μηδείς (talk) 23:46, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Not at the highest levels of competition among countries.  Spencer T♦ C 00:29, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Not a top-level competition, and specific to a single group (Jewish by birth or religion) and not athletes in general. 331dot (talk) 09:51, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

[Pulled] Alexei Navalny jailed

 * Support very significant event for Russia, might even hurt its relations with the West -- Ե րևանցի talk  21:40, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support might I also suggest we also but Sergei Magnitsky on the blurb, he was sentenced posthumously just a week ago for tax evasion, it is I think relevant here because it seems to me anyway that these both are political trials. 84.248.131.49 (talk) 22:09, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support This judgement marks the end of a very important trial that started almost three months ago. Navalny was definitely one of the most important political figures in Russia, who was hailed by many as a future presidential candidate.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 22:43, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per Kiril. 331dot (talk) 23:06, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per Kiril. Neljack (talk) 23:44, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support significant development in Russia moving towards full dictatorship, well-known figure internationally Josh Gorand (talk) 23:55, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Updated see . μηδείς (talk) 01:29, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted --  tariq abjotu  03:07, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Pulled He's apparently been released from prison on bail, pending appeal. Unless someone has a more up-to-date blurb that's still interesting, there doesn't appear to be anything ITN-worthy to post right now. --  tariq abjotu  18:12, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

[Attention needed] Guinea violence

 * Comment: From the article, "In late February 2013, political violence erupted ... upcoming May 2013 elections." Why is this being nominated now? Are there new clashes or something?  Spencer T♦ C 01:25, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The nominator failed to provide any news sources which is why some may think this is not a recent event. These clashes are new recent clashes according to Washington Post, Reuters, BBC, Al Jazeera etc. Andise1 (talk) 03:55, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, okay thank you. In that case, the article needs substantial updates to reflect recent events.  Spencer T♦ C 14:07, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support The elections have been postponed until September. The BBC says at least 54 deaths, so we should probably replace 56 with that. In any case, it is undoubtedly serious civil strife. Neljack (talk) 04:06, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The article (and especially the lead) will need more information on the election re-scheduling. (Lead implies elections happened in May; body says postponed "indefinitely", which apparently is not the case any longer.)   Also, I see no real reason to mention the elections in the ITN blurb. - that would imply the violence happened because of the elections which is speculation at best. --ThaddeusB (talk) 05:12, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Cleaned it.Lihaas (talk) 20:39, 18 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment: The update could use copyediting and more references.  Spencer T♦ C 22:04, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

War crimes conviction #2

 * If the two post they should be combined as one item. μηδείς (talk) 19:53, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I concur. Post them together. Abductive  (reasoning) 01:59, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Same-sex marriage (United Kingdom)

 * Comment I was considering posting this but reviewing the ITN/C articles, basically realized that most "Country affirms same-sex marriages" have all pretty much been rejected as of late due to the fact its not a novelty nor anything affecting international matter. I would otherwise support this as the fact the Queen gave her assent for it, but doubt based on past nominations this will go through. --M ASEM (t) 15:06, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support like I've supported the French, New Zealand, et al., because of its significance. Lack of international impact is irrelevant, and in fact questionable, since the movement to marriage equality is happening worldwide. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:11, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose only because it was known this was coming since it was passed as the Queen's approval was only a formality. I actually support this but precedent tells me this probably won't be posted.  It is a novelty until a significant portion of nations and/or the world's population has same-sex marriage as legal, though. 331dot (talk) 15:15, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It was actually only passed on Monday, I believe, so it is not stale either way. I've changed the blurb, because this is not UK-wide law. Support, since we've recently broken with precedence by predictably posting a minor gay marriage related story because it was American. Formerip (talk) 15:23, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose Whilst I appreciate, as has been said above, that same-sex marriage is nowhere near becoming the law of the land in a majority of countries, passage of a new law is becoming fairly routine now, even if happening at an infrequent pace.  Are we supposed to post the next 50 countries who pass a gay marriage law?  It would have been notable if it was the first couple of countries passing a new law, but now we're onto however many and it isn't really notable in the same way now. Redverton (talk) 15:48, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * strong oppose we didn't post nEW ZEALAND and that was a first in the region. This is not the first in Europe and sets no precedence.Lihaas (talk) 19:15, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose regardless of the national comparisons, this law essentially means churches can choose to officiate in and call already available civil unions marriages in their church. That's been state law in the US for years. μηδείς (talk) 19:55, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * This is untrue. It also means that same-sex unions are covered by the generic law on marriage, rather than the slightly lesser and recently-coined civil partnerships law. AlexTiefling (talk) 23:33, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I am entirely undisposed to take any disagreement you have with me on good faith, at this point, Alex. If you want to state that argument a little more clearly (I am not sureI get your point) and link to the relevant articles or facts to support it I will read the material. μηδείς (talk) 17:24, 18 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose Seems to of gotten too little coverage in the UK media. --Somchai Sun (talk) 21:25, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Would be absurd to not post this after posting the DOMA decision, which didn't even legalise same-sex marriage. This is getting plenty of media attention in the UK and around the world, it was nominated at the proper time (when it becomes law), and it doesn't just mean that churches can call civil partnerships marriages - it means that same-sex marriage is now recognised by the state. Neljack (talk) 23:30, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per Neljack 84.248.131.49 (talk) 10:14, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose: Given how little coverage there is compared to other controversial bills, I don't think it should appear on ITN. It's also nothing new compared with other countries.  The C of E God Save the Queen!  ( talk ) 10:54, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose File under slow news day.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 13:28, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong support, per Neljack. Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:23, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment from beyond the grave The repeal of DOMA was very different from the legalization of gay marriage in France, Brazil, England + Wales, and New Zealand. In the case of the USA, the elected national legislature had passed a law (DOMA) explicitly outlawing gay marriage, and that law was (much) later overturned by the unelected constitutional court. In all the other cases, a national legislature passed a law. Had the Queen vetoed (can she?) a law which legislated gay marriage either way, that would be comparable to the DOMA story. This, however, is not. --76.110.201.132 (talk) 20:04, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not an expert but I think that in theory, the Queen could have refused to give Royal Assent, but by tradition and custom that is virtually never done. 331dot (talk) 20:14, 18 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support, again very significant like the previous ones, i. e. in France. Hope it would be posted. Otherwise I and maybe some others would think that the WP editors have some bias.Egeymi (talk) 22:16, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - This is a very important event for supporters of equality worldwide and should certainly be featured here. Some of the opposes have an almost homophobic ring to them... PantherLeapord (talk) 22:53, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose local news. New laws are enacted every day, there are million of laws around the world. The European Commission produces huge amounts of directives that we don't post. And this is not something new as pointed out, and it doesn't even affect a significant number of people. Josh Gorand (talk) 23:40, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * [[User:Josh Gorand - how many gay people in England and Wales have you counted then? doktorb wordsdeeds 06:16, 19 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose For the reasons given above, not the first, or even close to the first time this law has been passed somewhere.  ★ ★ RetroLord★ ★  02:29, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose No more same-sex marriage ITNs until Afghanistan legalises it. It's just not news anymore. --<tt style="color:black;">RA</tt> ( &#x270D; ) 23:13, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong support - I cannot fathom how an entire country legalizing same-sex marriage should not be ITN, yet Wikipedia will gladly put up a Supreme Court case that allows gay marriage to stand in a single US state (California) and strikes down DOMA (which did not come close to legalizing same-sex marriage). At this point, the !votes suggest there will be no consensus to post... yet the inconsistency truly boggles my mind. You know all those people who constantly complain about the English Wikipedia having a US-bias? Yeah, maybe they have a point. –Prototime (talk · contribs) 03:26, 21 July 2013 (UTC)undefined
 * Oppose a new country legalizing same sex marriage is not really news anymore. Until a strongly religious country does it (Poland? Ireland?) I don't think such news are - I guess luckily - that notable anymore. Nergaal (talk) 04:32, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Queensland wins Rugby League State of Origin 8th time in a row

 * How come this is "generally considered important enough to post", but the British Lions is not? There isn't a single credible argument that can be made that one is more important/significant/watched than the other. Mission Twelve (talk) 13:55, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I guess the news here is not so much the single event in itself but the winning streak, it's completely unheard of. The better part of a decade. Mike lomas (talk) 14:53, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose minor local competition. To win eight times in a row is not that big a deal when the contest only includes three teams.  The Rambling Man (talk) 18:33, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I think it's two teams. If we posted this, can someone explain why we wouldn't start posting soccer derbys? Formerip (talk) 19:01, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know if you can call it minor; according to the commentators, the match was broadcasted in over 90 countries, that's more than a few ITN/R items we have listed. YuMaNuMa Contrib 00:08, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, but this is a competition localised to just half of Australia, one half of the rugby code, and conducted between just a couple of local teams, not national teams (like The Ashes as noted below). Also, "cultural significance" is noted, but this contest started in 1980 didn't it?  The Ashes started just under 100 years before that.  Between two teams separated by half the globe.  This is of minor interest and should not be ITN or ITN/R.  The Rambling Man (talk) 18:19, 18 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose Good on them. μηδείς (talk) 19:56, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Not a top-tier competition. 331dot (talk) 19:59, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Good on them indeed. --Somchai Sun (talk) 21:23, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support With respect, many of the opposes indicate that the people concerned haven't looked very carefully at this competition. Nobody who is familiar with rugby league would describe State of Origin as a "minor local competition" or "not a top-tier competition". It is probably the most intense and high-quality rugby league that is played anywhere in the world - even above international matches. I think it would be widely regarded as being as important as the NRL and Superleague, which are ITN/R, so it would seem to be important enough to post. The fact that it only involves two teams shouldn't disqualify it - The Ashes, for instance, are rightly ITN/R, despite involving only two teams. Queensland winning a record eighth consecutive series makes this even more notable. Neljack (talk) 23:47, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The problem you have is that the Ashes involves two nations, so a genuine international sport, and has been running for over 100 years. State of Origin is much newer and only involves two states of one of those countries, out of six states and several territories. You'll need to explain it better to non-aficionados. HiLo48 (talk) 07:36, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The intro to the State of Origin article explains it well (the numerous references omitted; see the article for them):


 * Touted as Australian sport's greatest rivalry, the State of Origin series is one of the country's and the region's premier sporting events, attracting a huge television audience and usually selling out the stadiums in which the games are played. Despite the existence of international tournaments and State of Origin being a domestic competition, it is frequently cited as being the highest-level of rugby league played anywhere in the world.


 * I would suggest that it is a bit like college football and basketball in the US - an event with huge cultural significance and following despite not being an international competition, so if (like me) you support them because of that huge cultural significance and following then you should support this too. If you oppose them because they are amateur university tournaments, then you should still support this, because that rationale is inapplicable here. Neljack (talk) 08:29, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You could write a similar paragraph to that regarding football fixtures between Man Utd and Liverpool, though. Formerip (talk) 12:22, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That article doesn't help itself with language like "Touted as..." That means "Attempt to sell (something), typically by pestering people in an aggressive or bold manner" or "To solicit customers, votes, or patronage, especially in a brazen way." It certainly not the language one uses for truth or reality. HiLo48 (talk) 09:02, 18 July 2013 (UTC)


 * One argument that can be used is by using money. The NCAA basketball tournament's TV rights is $10.8 billion in 14 years, or about $771 million annually, or about $11.5 million per game. The latest NBA TV rights was $7.8 billion for 9 years, or about $867 million annually (I dunno how many national games are aired annually). If you're using the amount of money the league receives each year, the NBA earns more than the NCAA -- although the NCAA doesn't pay their athletes so... – H T  D  09:16, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That isn't the only meaning of "touted". In this context, it basically just means "claimed". Neljack (talk) 09:25, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "Claimed" would prove nothing either. HiLo48 (talk) 09:55, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Naturally it would prove nothing except that people claim that, but WP can't come out as declare it as Australia's greatest sporting rivalry (that is subjective and would be POV), so no doubt that's why that say it's "widely touted" and then cite quite a few sources. Neljack (talk) 12:13, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * This seems to be like posting the results of a hypothetical series between the Boston Red Sox and New York Yankees billed as a "tournament". It's just two teams each representing parts of a nation. They might play at a high level, more than other teams, due to a rivalry, but it doesn't determine the championship of an entire league of many teams. 331dot (talk) 08:34, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It's more like an interleague series between two strong baseball teams before interleague play was instituted, TBH. – H T  D  09:16, 18 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose Local competition that is only active in half of Australia.color="gold">★★ RetroLord★ ★ ''' 07:47, 18 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment It may help to explain the "football" situation in Australia. (League fans aren't doing a very good job here.) The Barassi Line divides Australia into two parts. On one side, Rugby League (the game we're discussing here) is the main football code. That sport is not at all strong on the other side of the line, where Australian football is the popular football code. The strong area for Rugby League is the state of Queensland and most of the state of New South Wales. These are the two states that play in the State of Origin competition. The National Rugby League is a competition played by players from those two states. The best players in that league play in the State of Origin matches. Fans and media argue that the State of Origin series is more important and a higher standard than the finals (playoffs) in the National Rugby League. I'm from the wrong side of the Barassi line, so I'm not a strong fan, and not in a good position to judge if that's true. What is true is that the deciding match in the series was just last night, and fans are still very excited. There is naturally a lot of media hype surrounding the games (that's professional sport!) and many fans, unsurprisingly, buy it all. Hope this helps. HiLo48 (talk) 10:31, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Just for the record, I'm not a league fan (I'm a union man). It's been quite a while since I've watched a league game, much less a State of Origin one. And, not being Australian, I don't pretend to have a full understanding of its cultural significance there. I didn't expect this to get posted; I just wanted to correct the misapprehension regarding the significance attached to State of Origin. Neljack (talk) 12:10, 18 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - we should seek to post items of high cultural significance (which apparently is the case here) even when they aren't "top level" competitions. The cultural impact of sports is what makes it important - a championship itself has no meaning if no one attaches any to it. ITN should not be judging Australia's assignment of significance to this event as invalid anymore than it tries to do with American college sports. --ThaddeusB (talk) 15:28, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose, this nomination rests on the premise that winning streaks are important. Unfortunately they are open-ended, and as can be seen in ITN/C debates about stock market moves, gold prices and oil prices, the consensus has been never to post those. Abductive  (reasoning) 17:11, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, the argument should probably be for making this annual event ITN/R. HiLo48 (talk) 18:02, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It does not rest on that premise. That was merely noted as something increasing the notability and interest. None of the supporters have stated that it wouldn't otherwise be sufficiently important. Neljack (talk) 23:09, 18 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose local news of very limited interest to most readers of the main page. We should only post the most important international sports events, most people are not interested in sports at all. Quite frankly, even the blurb is completely cryptic to me. Josh Gorand (talk) 23:48, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

RD Alex Colville

 * Comment. The article makes no such claims. Abductive  (reasoning) 15:11, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I added the OCCC part just now. —  Wylie pedia  17:25, 18 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose largely unknown painter (only 2 interwikis, very short article) Josh Gorand (talk) 23:51, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Since recent death space is free yet again, certainly this should be posted too, since that seems to be one of the criteria for posting these days. 84.248.131.49 (talk) 12:45, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Saran school lunch poisoning incident

 * Support the death of dozens of children due to negligence or otherwise is newsworthy. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:37, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * oppose there really needs a discussed criteria for all these news events to fit into an enecylopaedia? Wheres is legacy and last value? this has no significance anywhere in the world. (even india)Lihaas (talk) 19:16, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The purpose of this page is to have that discussion. Further, large scale deaths of children are generally notable, especially in a public facility like a school. 331dot (talk) 19:45, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment. The title is terrible. Abductive  (reasoning) 19:39, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Large-scale deaths of children are generally notable; agree that the title could use improvement. 331dot (talk) 19:45, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Weakly neutral unusual event, not really encyclopedic, though. The blurb should say "a free lunch" rather than a meal. Obviously it was a meal. μηδείς (talk) 19:59, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It doesn't say 'meal' at all. Why is the freeness relevant? AlexTiefling (talk) 23:35, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It said "meal" originally. I changed it to "food" when revising the blurb to bring it up to date. --ThaddeusB (talk) 00:13, 18 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - incident has led to violent protests and scrutinization of India's food safety. (Impact like that is exactly we look for to prove a topic is encyclopedic, at the very least.) --ThaddeusB (talk) 20:40, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support I disagree with Lihaas this might have real effect for better or worse in India if this becomes big enough story in there. 84.248.131.49 (talk) 20:53, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak Oppose Large-scale food poisoning does happen - happening at a school, particularly in a nation with the socioeconomic climate of India, is sad but not unheard of. If it was clear that a major revamping of school lunch programs throughout the nation was to come of the incident, I feel this would be a stronger news story for ITN. But as it is, it is an unfortunate event but nothing that seems to have legs. --M ASEM  (t) 20:59, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Conditional Support the incident is tragic and newsworthy, but the article is a bit too short. Support on the condition that the article is expanded. -Zanhe (talk) 21:19, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Article expansion is now underway. --ThaddeusB (talk) 21:27, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Significant worldwide coverage, and that coverage will continue as long as the investigation into this matter continues. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  22:12, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Marked Ready the article is quite well updated at this point and well supported. μηδείς (talk) 22:37, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted -- Jayron  32  02:00, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Pleeeease change "organophosphorus" to "organophosphorus compounds". I do understand that media is lazy, but the former is an adjective not an actual noun. Nergaal (talk) 03:21, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed and done. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:30, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, 'tis indeed a noun . Formerip (talk) 08:53, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * When it comes to chemical nomenclature I would stay away from sites like freexyz.com. According to that site, it is the same thing to Organophosphate. Nergaal (talk) 14:37, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No, no, no. "Organophosphorus" is a noun. "Organophosphorous" or "organophosphor'ic" would be adjectives. Phosphorus is an element; organophosphorus comes from the carbon- (organo-) phosphorus bonds. It does function as an adjective in the construction "organophosphorus compound," the same way "sodium chloride" would in "sodium chloride solution," but that's beside the point. &mdash; <span style="color:#666 !important;">TORTOISE  WRATH  00:14, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * By the same analogy, what does organoiron mean to you? Nergaal (talk) 04:29, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Mexican top drug kingpin captured

 * Wasn't the last one caught or killed recently? Given our presumption of innocence, I doubt this would go anywhere anyway. μηδείς (talk) 01:29, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, Lazcano was killed back in October. Treviño Morales is considered his "natural successor," although some argue that he had ousted Lazcano before and was actually the big guy in Los Zetas. ComputerJA ( ☎  •  ✎  ) 02:28, 16 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment We posted the death of another Zetas leader, Heriberto Lazcano Lazcano, back in October (which was touted as one of the biggest victories in the War on Drugs for outgoing President Felipe Calderon). Also, Nieto has been president of Mexico for less than eight months. I'm not saying that means this isn't significant; I'm just pointing that out. --  tariq abjotu  01:33, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You're right. Maybe if the one captured today were El Chapo Guzmán this would be a easy pass... ComputerJA ( ☎  •  ✎  ) 02:28, 16 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support he has one of the largest bounties n the world. US is paying $5 mil for his capture. Nergaal (talk) 10:04, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Question I want to support this, but has he been found guilty in absentia or anything like that? Presumably he will go to trial and conceivably be found not-guilty?  I thought normally we would post this if/when someone is found guilty.  CaptRik (talk) 12:22, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't really think that applies here; there's no doubt from anyone that he's a Zetas leader. "Zetas leader" is basically his job description, not an accusation of a crime. To say that, for example, "Preschool teacher John Q is a pedophile" requires the pedophile bit, not the fact that he's a preschool teacher, to be proven in a court of law. --  tariq abjotu  14:48, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You've got this wrong, Tariq. Look up defamation per se.  There's a very important difference in the law between asserting someone has a job and asserting that that job is a criminal enterprise.μηδείς (talk) 18:43, 16 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Mild support. Leader of the largest criminal syndicate in Mexico and one of the main figures in the Mexican Drug War. It's comparable to the capture of a major warlord in a civil war that has cost 100K lives. The blurb might need some background to make sense for people not familiar, e.g "drug cartel Los Zetas." (P.S. Arguing that we can't report this until a trial is like arguing we couldn't have reported Bin Laden was leader of al-Qaeda without a court decision.) - BanyanTree 19:09, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No, Bin Laden filmed videos and identified himself and openly declared war on the US and so forth. Has this Mexican gentlemen issued press releases claiming to be the head of a criminal enterprise? μηδείς (talk) 19:18, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * ITN used to post things like the arrest of Thomas Lubanga Dyilo or death of Vincent Otti, with their reported positions, as a matter of course. If the standard is now that you need a press release confessing crimes, . I'll let the reviewing admin decide the validity of my support. - BanyanTree 20:27, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * We're not talking about a mere criminal enterprise here, we're talking about a massive drug cartel that has cause the deaths of thousands. It's closer to a civil war than a criminal enterprise. Even if that isn't the case, the arrest of notable wanted criminals or fugitives has been posted before. 331dot (talk) 21:15, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Dyilo was tried and found guilty, Otti was killed, so bLp didn't apply. The fact that this is allegedly a "massive" crime is irrelevant. The fact that Treviño's been arrested is fine, we can report that.  But we can't call him a drug kingpin unless he's either called himself that or been convicted.  This is really very simple. μηδείς (talk) 21:33, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * What do you suggest we call him? "Accused" drug kingpin?  Someone doesn't have to legally be adjudicated to be a drug kingpin to be one. 331dot (talk) 21:38, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Medeis, if you feel referring to Mr. Morales as a Zetas leaders is a BLP violation, I suggest you try getting that information removed from the article about him first. --  tariq abjotu  21:35, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You are quite aware of "WP:OTHERSTUFF". Don't lay that "fix the other article" excuse on us.  Articles have footnotes, and accusations can be attributed and referenced in them, but not on the front page, and you are quite aware we hold to a strict standard here. IF it is the case they have announced it, it should be possible to say something along 331 Dot's suggestion like "Mexican authorities arrest Treviño as the head of the Zetas".  But it absolutely has to be attributed, not assumed as fact. μηδείς (talk) 23:56, 16 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Mexican officials report I have been looking for an official and Spanish source that says Trevino was arrested as head of the Zetas. But CNN is reporting that arresting Mexican officials refused to identify Trevino by his supposed alias or as head of the drug cartel when he was arrested:"Sánchez nunca lo llamó por su alias ni dijo que era el jefe máximo de uno de los cárteles más violentos en México, tampoco dio información sobre quién podría ser su posible sucesor en la organización criminal. Sanchez never called him by his nickname nor said he was the top leader of one of the most violent cartels in Mexico, neither did he give details on who might be his possible successor in the criminal organization."The best we can say is that Mexican Federal agents report the arrest of Trevino on drug, kidnapping, torture and murder charges.  Even they are avoiding calling him head of he Zetas. μηδείς (talk) 00:58, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. In this new administration, the President has pledged to soften the language of the drug war. The past administration did have reports on him being a leader, though  I'm fine if we put "reported" leader on the blurb and/or article. ComputerJA (  ☎  •  ✎  ) 02:03, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm still not ready to modify the wording on the Main Page. Yes, I see you've added the word "alleged" in the lead, but the genie's already out of the bottle. The Miguel Treviño Morales article says he's a Zetas leader dozens of times. The article would be a mess if you had to keep saying "allegedly" after every statement that no one contests. --  tariq abjotu  02:27, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You're right. I don't think it will hurt anyone if we leave it as it is. Not sure what Medeis thinks, though. Thanks for your concern. ComputerJA ( ☎  •  ✎  ) 02:34, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Posted --  tariq abjotu  01:55, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * This is shameful, Tariq. did you even read CNN on the arresting Mexican official? He announced charges of kindnapping, torture, murder and drug trafficking and refused to call the man head of the Zetas or identify him as a zeta.  Your recent actions are unbefitting an admin and the front page.  Not to mention there's absolutely no consensus to post in any form. μηδείς (talk) 02:38, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe you like the glacial pace of ITN, but I certainly don't. There are no objections, and it's been twenty-four hours. And, yes, I saw what you said, but their refusing to call him a Zeta seems to be, from context, about not elevating him and the organization's profile. This is heavily implied in the Spanish-language source you provided in preceding paragraphs, as well as in English-language sources that discuss this point:
 * "He was taken to Mexico City for questioning, but unlike the days of former President Felipe Calderon, there was no perp walk by a handcuffed suspect or piles of cash and guns put on display for the TV cameras. Instead, the government released a single video of a rumpled-looking, un-handcuffed Trevino Morales walking through prosecutors' headquarters, saying it wanted to avoid glamorizing drug traffickers or risk rights violations that could lead to a dismissal of charges. Authorities didn't even refer to his nickname, Z-40. (AP)"
 * We do not have the same motives; we are here to provide verifiable information, as reported in our articles. That he is a Zetas leader is verified many, many places (including by Mexican government sources on a number of occasions). You're fighting the wrong fight here. --  tariq abjotu  02:59, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Altblurb I have added a blurb that avoids contradicting the Mexican prosecutor. μηδείς (talk) 02:50, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I support the usage of the word "reputed". ComputerJA ( ☎  •  ✎  ) 06:38, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Pull Oh come on User:Tariqabjotu, this is not worth the megabytes its written with. Another low in ITN/C. doktorb wordsdeeds 15:01, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Huh? Why? Is there actually something wrong with the article, or do you object to the story? I can't decipher what "not worth the megabytes its written with" could possibly mean, other than an insult to the editors who put their time and energy into writing the article. --  tariq abjotu  15:08, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It's an insult to ITN/C that this page 43 curiosity has been upgraded to the front page. On what grounds? There's almost no support in this nomination, it wasn't up for long enough to garner consensus, and is barely worth coverage on news sites outside Mexico. This is exactly the kind of story which would, ordinarily, be shot down. Why did you chose to accept it? doktorb wordsdeeds 15:24, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * We can't just have stories languish on ITN/C as others that take place in the Anglosphere garner attention and devolve into lengthy debates. I imagine that had this not been posted, you would not have even noticed or cared to comment on the nomination. Twenty-four hours is enough time for people to see and review a nomination and register their opinion, and it took more than thirty-six hours for someone (you) to object. During that time there was no objection while the article received a healthy update and cleanup. And I don't know what you're talking about with non-Mexican news sites not covering it. From my vantage point, this story has received prominent news coverage in a number of sources, more prominent still than the UK's legalization of gay marriage. What you see as a "Page 43 curiosity" is not the same around the world. And, of course, a story being primarily related to one country (if we can even say that about this case) does not make it ineligible for ITN. --  tariq abjotu  15:47, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * User:Tariqabjotu, can you tell me what opinion User:Medeis had on this story, and when that opinion was posted here? doktorb wordsdeeds 16:33, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I can't say I have liked everything User:Tariqabjotu have posted lately, but this is not really fair, it is hardly his fault that people don't bother to support or oppose this. There was few support true, but there also weren't anyone who really opposed posting this before you. I also happen to think that this is fairly important news and certainly worth it to post. 84.248.131.49 (talk) 16:00, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * The usual procedure is four supports and a ready tag, so I didn't feel it helpful to add an oppose while working to try to improve the nomination. It's called collegiality. μηδείς (talk) 17:46, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * The premature and unilateral psting here is the problem. We usually have at least 4 supports before a posting.  This one had one and a half supports and my implicit oppose while the way to handle the blurb was discussed.  While looking in good faith for a verbatim source from Mexican officials I found a CNN source explicitly saying the Government would not identify him as a kingpin, but only state the charges.  Before a discussion of this could be held, before there was consensus, before the article had ben marked ready, Tariqabjotu posted the most controversial blurb.


 * At this point, I am not sure whther there is consensus to post. With the nom with a support and a half, a pull, and my oppose as is, t seems not.  Yet, if the item is not going to be pulled, using the altblurb ("Reputed Zetas leader Miguel Treviño Morales is arrested on drug, kidnapping, torture and murder charges") would be a much better situation than the current one. μηδείς (talk) 17:37, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * It's a shame User:Medeis that Tariq acted in such a slap-dash manner on such a contentious nomination  doktorb wordsdeeds 17:42, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Seems Tariq is okay about ignoring consensus and criteria. Perhaps he needs to let someone else do these more contentious candidates.  The Rambling Man (talk) 18:04, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Don't any of you have something better to do? --  tariq abjotu  18:05, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, of course, but a few recent promotions to the main page have been against any criteria and against any consensus, so we should discuss it and suggest solutions. One solution is you stop promoting articles which don't meet the criteria or don't have any consensus.  The Rambling Man (talk) 18:09, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, this is not the right forum for bringing out your pitchforks. --  tariq abjotu  18:15, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I notice User:The Rambling Man that User:Tariqabjotu has not addressed my direct question about when [User:Medeis]] placed his doubt over the exact details of this nomination. Tariq implied that my "pull" was the first rejection in 36 hours. Not entirely accurate. doktorb wordsdeeds 18:28, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * (ec) This is the place to discuss mis-listing of ITNs. There are no pitchforks, simply questions as to why certain items have been posted by Tariq against consensus and against the criteria.  The Rambling Man (talk) 18:30, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't think this needs either a pull or an altblurb but, if an altblurb is used, "reputed" should be avoided because it is easily confused with "of repute". Formerip (talk) 19:29, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If we focus on the item, can we either pull it or switch to the altblurb, which has more support? μηδείς (talk) 18:36, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure I've read any encyclopaedia that suggests a "reputed" classification for an individual. Pull.  The Rambling Man (talk) 18:39, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree to Pull I will start a discussion on the talk page doktorb wordsdeeds 18:43, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Pull if the blurb isn't changed--it implies he was arrested for being the zeta kingpin, not on the actual specific charges the government announced. μηδείς (talk) 18:55, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I think renaming the blurb is better than pulling the article. May I suggest "Alleged" instead of Reputed? ComputerJA ( ☎  •  ✎  ) 19:58, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Alleged implies by a charging authority like the government or a victim. In this case the government is not alleging he was a a Zeta, just a drug dealing, kidnapping, and multiple murdering torturer.  I do agree if it is supported that changing the blurb is acceptable if there's not enough support for pulling.  The issue of pulling is separate.  Procedurally a pull is called for.  On the merits it is borderline. μηδείς (talk) 20:05, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * What? Of course they are. Their refusal to use the term, or his nickname, during a press conference is about not elevating the status of the organization. You're really bending over backward to make your point. --  tariq abjotu  20:20, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Or, it can just stay as it is. We defer to article content. This happens all the time. If Medeis wants to claim that this headline is a BLP violation, he has to claim the entire article is a BLP violation (as it repeatedly treats Morales as known member of Los Zetas). For some reason, Medeis is unwilling to do that. This is a tempest in a teapot, and it's obvious no one actually agrees with his position on the blurb except to merely appease him or to claim impropriety on my part. --  tariq abjotu  20:09, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Your personal contempt for me is a convenient excuse, but this article has three pull votes and two and a half supports, so regardless of the blurb it does not have consensus and ddid not have consensus when you posted it. μηδείς (talk) 22:33, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Now (as well as at the time of your comment here) the number of people who support this nomination numbers six: ComputerJA, Nergaal, BanyanTree, 84.248.131.49, Formerip, and LukeSurl. If we include 331dot's comment on WT:ITN saying he "[doesn't] think the arrest of a highly sought after criminal suspect who is essentially waging a civil war is as 'contentious' as it is made out to be", we get seven. --  tariq abjotu  23:07, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I will specifically say that I support this being posted. 331dot (talk) 23:35, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support. Seems a notable development in the Mexican drug war. I agree that "Zetas leader" is sufficiently undisputed by reliable sources to be placed, unqualified, in the blurb. --LukeSurlt c 20:28, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I now call for an uninvolved admin to close this discussion as it is going nowhere and devolving into criticism of the admin who posted this, which is already being discussed. 331dot (talk) 23:35, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Your command is my wish. -- Jayron  32  01:50, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] New moon: S/2004 N-1

 * Support (after article is ready) - Significant discovery.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 00:25, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, it is quite an insignificant moon. Its discovery might be more interesting. Abductive  (reasoning) 00:40, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Yet another tiny space rock. Just last week, Medeis was assuring us that the chance to name a body like this would never come along again. In truth, the giant planets have scores of little bits of rock and ice orbiting them. This isn't news outside a specialised circle. AlexTiefling (talk) 00:31, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Your unending crush on me is flattering, Alex, but I am not interested and you are probably grossing out everybody else with it. μηδείς (talk) 01:28, 16 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose "The moon is so small it was missed by Voyager 2 in 1989." μηδείς (talk) 01:28, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Not a bad article for a moon discovery announced yesterday. It may not be a large moon, but this is exactly the type of subject that people turn to Wikipedia for information on. Regarding the rareness of the event, this is the first Neptunian moon discovered in the past 10 years. Kaldari (talk) 07:52, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Quite Interesting science story.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 09:09, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support as this is the moon of a planet, not a dwarf planet. 331dot (talk) 09:36, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Too many of these minor discoveries to be legitimately notable doktorb wordsdeeds 10:19, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support A new planetary moon is quite notable, unlike asteroids and the so-called minor planets that pop out almost every day. Brandmeistertalk  10:37, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support as per Kaldari. --LukeSurlt c 10:57, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support This is the moon of a planet in our own solar system therefore the casual reader is likely to have heard of Neptune and be interested in this story. CaptRik (talk) 12:23, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per the comments of Kaldari, although the blurb is a bit weak. Suggest:
 * Analysis of images taken by the Hubble Space Telescope leads to the discovery of Neptune's fourteenth moon.
 * or something similar. Pedro : Chat  13:23, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with playing up the method of discovery in the blurb. Abductive  (reasoning) 14:15, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Question. I'm leaning towards a weak support, but isn't there any sort of hurdle such as getting the moon recognised as a moon by the next International Moon-recognising Convention or whatever? Formerip (talk) 15:08, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose I normally auto-support these kind of news, but this is the 14th moon of neptune, about 10 km in diameter... Nergaal (talk) 18:09, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment The issue with these small moons of the gas giants is that given their primaries have ring systems (and this body is in the rings system) in essece composed of moons; you are basically looking at moons all the way down to the size of dust. Finding them just depends on how hard and long you want to look.  I think someone posted a link of the recently found gas giant moons in the debate over the recent Pluto posting.  A chart like that would be informative as to the notability of this satellite. μηδείς (talk) 18:24, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Here's the Pluto discussion. Here are some of he recent gas giant (multiple) moon naming announcements:


 * 2002 naming of moons of Jupiter http://www.cbat.eps.harvard.edu/iauc/07900/07998.html
 * 2003 naming of moons of Jupiter, Saturn and Uranus http://www.cbat.eps.harvard.edu/iauc/08100/08177.html
 * 2005 naming of moons of Uranus http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:iAbkiaqSAlMJ:www.cbat.eps.harvard.edu/iauc/08600/08648.ps
 * 2006 naming of moon of Saturn http://www.cbat.eps.harvard.edu/iauc/08700/08730.html
 * 2007 naming of moons of Neptune http://www.cbat.eps.harvard.edu/iauc/08800/08802.html
 * 2007 naming of moons of Jupiter and Saturn http://www.cbat.eps.harvard.edu/iauc/08800/08826.html
 * 2007 naming of moons of Saturn http://www.cbat.eps.harvard.edu/iauc/08800/08873.html
 * 2009 naming of moon of Jupiter (Subscription required) http://www.cbat.eps.harvard.edu/iauc/09000/09094.html
 * 2011 change the spelling of a moon of Saturn http://www.cbat.eps.harvard.edu/iauc/09100/09191.html
 * Here are some of the most recent named moons of Saturn, note these are satellites XLIX through LII:
 * Saturn XLIX    Anthe       = S/2007 S 4      IAUC 8857
 * Saturn L       Jarnsaxa    = S/2006 S 6      IAUC 8727
 * Saturn LI      Greip       = S/2006 S 4      IAUC 8727
 * Saturn LII     Tarqeq      = S/2007 S 1      IAUC 8836
 * I am frankly not at all worried about the prospect of this posting. I just want to point out small moons of gas giants are pretty much discovered whenever we take a close look. μηδείς (talk) 18:36, 16 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Posted --ThaddeusB (talk) 05:16, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - There are a few photos (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:S-2004_N_1.jpg) and (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Orbits_of_inner_moons_of_Neptune_including_S_2004_N_1.jpg) if/when the current photo is to be replaced. Andise1 (talk) 05:49, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support photo use μηδείς (talk) 20:07, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think either picture is discernible at 100px: S-2004_N_1.jpgOrbits_of_inner_moons_of_Neptune_including_S_2004_N_1.jpg --ThaddeusB (talk) 22:55, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If there should be a picture of something related to this item, it should just be a picture of Neptune. --  tariq abjotu  23:08, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

War crimes conviction

 * Support. War crimes convictions are generally notable. 331dot (talk) 20:41, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - war crimes convictions are indeed notable.--BabbaQ (talk) 20:43, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: Issues with the POV tag need to be resolved; see the article talk page for details.  Spencer T♦ C 20:51, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - War crimes convictions are usually notable.--WaltCip (talk) 20:52, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment, per Spencer the article should be improved not to have POV tag.Egeymi (talk) 21:00, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Conditional support – Support only if POV issues are resolved in the article. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 01:10, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support there were major riots (2013 Bangladesh riots) over this case earlier this year. -- Ե րևանցի talk  05:36, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Note I'd really like to post this: based on support and referencing and overall quality of article (at first glance) this would be an easy post, but there's an orange-level dispute tag that needs to be resolved, and a talk page discussion currently going on regarding that tag. If that discussion can reach a consensus, please ping this page or myself, and I'll see what I can do to post.  -- Jayron  32  02:08, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That talk page is by a partisan editor on the south Asian topics. I don't see it gaining anywhere till someone (an admin) overlooks it.Lihaas (talk) 19:18, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Combine this with the new nom if they're posted. μηδείς (talk) 20:08, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Neutrality issues need to be solved. Fai  zan  14:54, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support the dispute in Wikipedia is itself likely to be of interest to readers, and appears unlikely to be resolved soon. This is clearly an important news item and should be listed as such. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 17:18, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Bupati Cup riots

 * There needs to be a Bupati Cup article for context here. --LukeSurlt c 11:10, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Bupati Cup riots is three sentences and there is no Bupati Cup article.  Gamaliel  ( talk ) 22:53, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. As above, a three sentence article, and no article at all about the Bupati Cup can't be posted at ITN. And really, who cares about football riots.  ★ ★ RetroLord★ ★  10:14, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose For the reasons given above doktorb wordsdeeds 10:20, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] 2013 Oznobishino bus crash

 * Support Casualties of this level are rare in automobile crashes. Neljack (talk) 22:49, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Not really. --Bongwarrior (talk) 23:01, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, they only occur in a minuscule proportion of automobile crashes. Neljack (talk) 23:24, 14 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Weak support – Deadly accident with coverage by many media outlets. However, not a terribly uncommon event. Based on the above list linked by Bongwarrior, there have been over 20 accidents in 2013 resulting in over 15 fatalities. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 23:28, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No, no, no, no, no We need a ban on all but the most exceptional transportation accidents, such as the recent Canadian derailment.  The SF airplane crash is the subject of jokes,  These are simply sensational, not encyclopedic .  Opposed, btw. μηδείς (talk) 00:32, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * What, what, what, what, what? Are you seriously trying to say that you want us to believe you live in a world where large passenger jets doing carthweels down a runway and only killing 3 people isn't something you'd call a "most exceptional" accident? Mission Twelve (talk) 00:57, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose. Not an uncommon event, even with this level of casualties.  Might support if there was a criminal act or terrorism involved. 331dot (talk) 02:02, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak support Many casualties but a lot of sensation due to the video of it.--NortyNort (Holla) 02:24, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Sigh how many bus/train/plane/truck and so forth accidents we posted so far this year, I agree with Medeis to an extent, we need to set some firm criteria on both accidents and disasters. Oppose common occurrence in Russia, unlikely to lead to drastic changes. Secret account 03:08, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - a significant accident, but does not rise to the level we should be posting on ITN (we post too much death as is). I am also against "firm criteria" as the number of deaths should not be the deciding factor - something accidents that involve few deaths are more significant that those that involve many for various reasons. --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:20, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There are two issues. We do need firmer criteria on just body counts.  Obviously body count is not going to matter if we have a famous victim or a famous crash site.  That's a separate issue of notability. μηδείς (talk) 21:37, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Tragic but not particularly noteworthy from a worldwide context . Gamaliel  ( talk ) 22:51, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It says quite clearly at the top of the page, "do not complain about an event only relating to a single country". Mission Twelve (talk) 00:57, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry. Gamaliel  ( talk ) 03:57, 16 July 2013 (UTC)


 * It wouldn't really matter if there was firm criteria, you'd still get what happens here - differing views based on the exact same figures. I personally have absolutely no idea what people think is "common" for Russia, even though someone has even actually posted a baseline figure for 2013. It would be a complete waste of time voting either way, especially when there are people in here who think even cart-wheeling passenger jets is not all that exceptional. Quite what one does with views like 'too much death' is also a complete mystery. How much is too much? It's clearly a waste of time discussing it, as I'm pretty sure nobody is even counting. Mission Twelve (talk) 00:57, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose We're not a traffic police newsticker doktorb wordsdeeds 10:21, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Telegraphy

 * <Strike>Support per nominator. Wonder how many people were using it before it closed down?</Strike> Withdrawing support based on evidence presented below. Tap tap tap. --Somchai Sun (talk) 19:16, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose this doesn't seem to be the end of the last telegram service in the world, as our article and  make clear. <b style="color:#FF0000;">Hut 8.5</b> 19:24, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support though without the reference to the last in the world. India is a large enough country in terms of population for this to be notable. 331dot (talk) 02:03, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose, unless supporters can explain away the reliable sources saying that telegrams will continue to be delivered in places such as Canada. Abductive  (reasoning) 02:49, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Definitely not the last in the world, but possibly still notable enough to post. I'm neutral for now (thought about nominating it even but wasn't really sure about notability).  If anyone can explain the importance w/o resorting to the false last in world claim, please do so. --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:23, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Last in the world would be worth posting, but I don't think ending them in one country (even a large and important one) is sufficiently significant. Neljack (talk) 05:15, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Is it rude to say "it's just another outdated business closing shop? – H T  D  05:18, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, youth! :) --regentspark (comment) 15:21, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Not the last in the world. Even Canada counts.  Gamaliel  ( talk ) 22:54, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Typhoon Soulik

 * Alternate option – Since there's already a blurb up in regards to a natural disaster in China, might be more reasonable to combine Soulik with the ongoing flood event. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 19:41, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No. The flooding and the typhoon are not related weather events and have occurred at different sides of a very big country. --LukeSurlt c 23:01, 14 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Question is this likely to be the most devastating typhoon of the season? Based on my incomplete understanding, I lean oppose as if the 2013 season is like the 2012 season several more devastating storms would be expected in the coming months. --LukeSurlt c 23:11, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There's no certainty as to whether or not this will be the most devastating. Sure you could say that the past has shown that there tend to be other devastating storms later in the season, but there's no guarantee. I don't think going with the mindset of "is this likely to be the most devastating..." is appropriate for ITN, however. Many events of the same nature but in varying degrees of impact are included all the time, such as train accidents or bus accidents. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 23:21, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Quite. But in the same way that we don't write a blurb for every accident, we couldn't be expected to write a blurb for every typhoon (there were 25 named storms in 2012, 14 of which were typhoons). There has to be some cutoff point. This will unavoidably be arbitrary and subjective. --LukeSurlt c 00:11, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not often that sources indicate that over 100 million people are directly affected by such storms (total that I've found so far is 121.4 million people across three provinces). That's the main reasoning for my nominating Soulik, rather than it being the first typhoon of the year. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 00:16, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * OK. Can I ask what "affected" means in this context? Did they need to evacuate? What was the probability of injury or property damage for these people? East Asia is a densely populated place, so I would expect a great number of people would be within the area-of-impact of many of these storms if "affected" simply means being in the storm's wide path. Personally I think that casualties and $ damage are more useful metrics.
 * Please don't get me wrong, I feel this is a strong nomination and you've done a great job on the article. I still just about lean oppose for reasons stated above. I'm going to sleep now, I hope this exchange is useful for others here in forming consensus on this nomination. --LukeSurlt c 00:30, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Completely understood :) I know you're just stating your opinion and there's no fault with that. I don't know of the details of what affected exactly means but rarely do I see 100 million show up even for other storms that have hit the same area. For what it's worth, within Fujian Province, at least 30 million people were temporarily displaced by the storm while another 2 million were evacuated in Guangdong Province to the south. I guess for easy reference of others, current tally (as of this comment) is 6 fatalities with $364 million in damage. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 00:41, 15 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support, for such an intense storm (Category 4), it's quite notable that only 9 people died. As for being the strongest, as Cyclonebiskit said, there's no way of knowing that, but as of 2010, only 6 storms have lower air pressure than this one, so it's pretty intense, and that's an average about 20 since 2010. – H T  D  11:40, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support The article does a good job explaining the extent of the damages caused by the Typhoon, even if there wasn't a relatively large loss of life.  Spencer T♦ C 17:56, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted -- Jayron  32  02:48, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] RD Cory Monteith

 * Support. This actor was internationally famous and here in the States his death is even breaking in on some of the Zimmerman trial coverage.  Andrew327 06:39, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * RD is fine I guess he died full of glee? Nergaal (talk) 07:25, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If you read the preliminary findings of his death, his battle with drug use and time spent in rehab, you might find your comment was in poor taste. Just sayin... 204.111.20.10 (talk) 21:21, 14 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose A tragic death, but I think there is a difference between "star of a major TV series" and "widely recognised as a very important figure" in the field of television. If anyone can provide evidence that he was widely regarded as such, I will reconsider. Neljack (talk) 07:41, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree that it is borderline. However, as evidentary information I'll point to Montieth being part of the cast that won the 2009 Screen Actors Guild award for Outstanding Performance by an Ensemble in a Comedy Series (also nominated in 2009, 2011 and 2012) and his People's Choice Award nomination for Favourite TV Actor last year. Personally, whilst I can ignore the Ensemble ones to a great extent, it is the People's Choice Award nomination which I consider to be the breakthrough as it shows individual recognition by a major awards program. Not that I would say every nominee would qualify, but certainly I think if any from the previous year's awards died then I think they would. Not really posting to argue the point, but just adding those so that you may consider them. :) Miyagawa (talk) 07:52, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Of course, one of the difficulties is that "very important" is rather vague: just how important does the person need to be? I think I probably apply higher standards for RD than most people. I guess I'd regard him as important, but not very important. He hasn't won any individual awards and I'm not convinced that he will have a major enduring impact (sadly, his career was all too short). :) Neljack (talk) 09:13, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support pending update (for RD) The first section has a cite needed tag on it. That needs to be cleared up. Miyagawa (talk) 07:46, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support for RD He was well-known, and the nature of his death is attracting news attention. Canuck 89 (what's up?) 07:53, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Support for RD - It seems that the suddenness of this death is helping it to make headlines; but the subject was indeed very well-known. AlexTiefling (talk) 08:23, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support for RD. Not watching Glee I'd never heard of him, but its clear I'm in a minority on this. It's the most read story on BBC News currently for example. Thryduulf (talk) 09:07, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support for RD. His notability combined with the nature of his death merits posting on RD. 331dot (talk) 11:56, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Not really notable enough for the frontpage.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 13:03, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * This is a textbook definition of what should not go to RD; in fact, this is essentially similar to a death of the longest living person, as long as RD is concerned, where the death is the news and not the life of the dead person. Either this gets a proper full blurb, or not at all. – H T  D  13:18, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose The actor is very minor relative to the entire entertainment industry (with really only one well-established role to his name). Yes, a shame to lose him at 31 but nowhere near the level of importance that RD should be reserved for. --M ASEM (t) 13:23, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted Recent deaths space is free. --  tariq abjotu  14:47, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support for RD as per Canuk89. --LukeSurlt c 16:18, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose doesn't meet any of our normal criteria, death itself is unexpected but not otherwise newsworthy. μηδείς (talk) 18:00, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose as Medeis says, not sure how this guy meets our RD criteria? Can anyone expand?  The Rambling Man (talk) 18:34, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose RD. A sudden death like this is not what the RD section was intended for, and should only be for a full blurb, which I oppose as well.  Spencer T♦ C 19:02, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Pull "Recent deaths space is free" is not a valid reason to post. Individual does not meet DC. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:11, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * This certainly seems to have been posted prematurely. Headlines have nothing to do with top of one's field or other notability. If anything, this seems about as notable as a low-level athlete killed in a car crash. It makes news but has no encyclopedic importance whatsoever whatever. μηδείς (talk) 22:17, 14 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I really don't see the merits in pulling. Take a step back from fixed criteria, and consider whether it is better having a link to what will almost certainly be one of the most in-demand articles on the site at the moment on the main page, or some empty space? --LukeSurlt c 22:20, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I don't really understand this. It has been established that the death is in the news and that people are interested in this subject (perhaps more so because it was unexpected). The article is in decent shape and is appropriately updated. And, yes, of course, Recent deaths space is free, as nothing needs to be removed to add this particular item. So, I don't understand what purpose it serves to omit this from ITN. --  tariq abjotu  22:29, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Then why wasn't Joyce Brothers posted? Her article had huge interest.  If you want to change the rules, that's fine, and I actually agree--I think we should have less strict criteria and a full ticker except for unusual dry spells.  But following the rules matters, especially to those of us without the administrative privilege to decide otherwise. μηδείς (talk) 01:15, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed. See an empty space, ignore the criteria, post an actor who's had an extremely limited career, who isn't top of his generation, isn't award-winning, won't ever be remembered outside his untimely demise...  Still, has set a precedent that just about anyone can be posted to RD if there's a space.  The Rambling Man (talk) 16:36, 15 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support for RD. There's a bit of subjectivity to the criteria. He may not have been the pre-eminent actor of his generation, but he was extremely well-known and Glee is one of the world's most watched TV shows. This complies with our standards so far this year (someone who was in Mork and Mindy, someone who was in Harry Potter) and there is no doubt that this is a very significant death to a large number of people. Formerip (talk) 23:09, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support for RD - per Tariqabjotu and Former IP. Jus  da  fax   23:59, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support for RD - The fact that he was not ""widely recognised as a very important figure in the field of television" was because of his age and limited acting career. He died at the age of 31, meaning he did not have the years of acting roles and experiences other actors who were older had when they died. Even though he started acting in 2004, he really began when he became one of the lead cast members of a widely watched television show (Glee)...and that was only for four years. Andise1 (talk) 01:00, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Pull, as User:Andise1 admits above, he did not achieve much beyond one show. Abductive  (reasoning) 02:52, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - posting it is/was correct, as the consensus appears to be in favor of posting. I am neutral/undecided based on merits alone, but would have posted if necessary based on consensus. --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:28, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Pull I don't understand why this was posted, he does not meet the criteria for posting. 84.248.131.49 (talk) 08:40, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Pull Doesn't meet the criteria - why was this posted? Black Kite (talk) 17:38, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Let me categorically answer that question, since people seem unable to scroll up. It was posted because, at least at the time of posting, there was consensus to post, and those who supported it did so because "He was well-known, and the nature of his death is attracting news attention." and "His notability combined with the nature of his death merits posting on RD." (among other points). Now, why hasn't it been removed? Because there hasn't been any indication that we're doing anyone a service by doing so. Perhaps removing this will prevent ITN/C folks from bringing this up in future discussions, but I don't think our mission here is to prevent our clique here from making false equivalencies. --  tariq abjotu  17:49, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The argument that you used is "Recent deaths space is free", which is not a reason to post. It is better that we have empty ITN slots or a blank RD than to say "we need to fill it up with something!" (compared to DYK, which is serving a different purpose). --M ASEM (t) 17:56, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Why??? --  tariq abjotu  18:18, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd rather see a day where no one of importance had recently died then trying to fill spaces just because its empty. As noted, you create a precedence for minor celebrities to be nominated for RD. I don't have time immediately to do this but I suspect that if I searched around, I could find plenty of other notable people that died in the last few days that are more significant than this actor but that most wouldn't have thought to brought to ITN/RD to nominate, and that starts a rather bad "game" of just tossing up people that would have normally never made it to RD if it was full just to fill out blank space. It is better to not include and avoid that game altogether. --M ASEM (t) 18:27, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Minor people dying who got this much news attention? Probably not. --  tariq abjotu  18:49, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * In American tabloids, yes. In the world news?  Not at all.  Gone without a trace already.  Filling a space because a space exists isn't one of the RD criteria I've read.  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:27, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Because regardless of whether you agree with them or not, we do have guidelines as to who qualifies for ITN/RD - and this one doesn't. THere must be many minorly notable people that die every day and they don't get posted - because people don't even nominate them because they know they don't qualify. This person shouldn't qualify purely through the tabloid interest in their death. Black Kite (talk) 18:34, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, there are some people who disagree. "Tabloid" is thrown around left, right, and center at ITN/C to discredit virtually any story that's in the news that people here don't want to be. It doesn't matter what the death criteria specifically say; one of the major purposes of ITN is "to help readers find and quickly access content they are likely to be searching for because an item is in the news." Some people felt that was paramount in this instance, despite Monteith not being among the elite echelons of actors. I see no reason I should have ignored them at the time of posting, and I see no reason to ignore them now, when the best reason for doing so is "we have" other "rules". --  tariq abjotu  18:49, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Problem is the rationale for support in most cases didn't match the RD criteria. You were supposed to assess the quality of the opinions before posting an actor who was famous for one role for a couple of years.  Mere "yes, well-known" and other such tenuous non-criteria arguments are there to be acknowledged but not really meaningful in the big scheme of things.  Hardly ground-breaking, hardly top of his field, not going to linger long in our minds.  Amazing how challenging it was to get a world-reknowned international TV broadcaster whose career spanned nearly 60 years and was known around the globe on RD, but this was such a cakewalk, because he was in Glee.  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:33, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * As I stated, Those pointing out the high interest in this story were within their bounds to do so; indeed, that interest is corroborated by the 1.35 million page views this article received yesterday (in comparison with the 31,000 page views received by Alan Whicker [whose nomination didn't meet much resistance, in fact] on the date of his death). Your insistence on diminishing the interest in this story to a few Gleeks and American celebrity gossip girls is without basis. --  tariq abjotu  20:25, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok, so we change the RD criteria to include general interest to moderately popular people, right? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:27, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not taking your bait; fish in another pond. --  tariq abjotu  20:29, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No, nor are you interpreting drive-by fan-boy supports appropriately. I suggest you find another pond, especially since you don't like the scrutiny in this one.  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:35, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I am not a "drive-by fan-boy" supporter, and I don't appreciate the suggestion. I reviewed the article and the news sources and decided that it merited my support. I had never watched Glee in my life. 331dot (talk) 22:39, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: Come on now guys, seriously it is a sad story with his death and everything. But surely this actor has not done enough in his line of business to justify an inclusion at ITN. This is a typical "american" issue... Had he been Swedish or Romanian with the same amount of movie/series work he would not even be considered for ITN.--BabbaQ (talk) 22:42, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I am sure these people who supported posting this are perfectly willing to support same sort of stories about some random actors in romania and sweden as well, it is only fair after all. Seriously though he is a minor celebrity whose death should not have been posted here, unless you are willing to post every other death of every other minor celebrity in every other country. 84.248.131.49 (talk) 00:55, 16 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Pull - Lets not keep the ITN criteria different for difference cases. The news may have been reported significantly in one country but the person does not meet ITN criteria. If someone does not meet ITN criteria, nothing but exceptional circumstances should allow them to be reported. And this isnt such a case. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 22:52, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment. I keep reading that this person does not meet the death criteria. But what it says is "widely regarded as a very important figure in his or her field". Given that the field would be TV acting and he was acting in one of the most internationally successful TV shows around, what part of the criteria doesn't he meet? Is it just that the people who regarded him as very important are not wide enough? Formerip (talk) 01:00, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There are people that I know I've seen nominated that have won awards in Television but were rejected for even RD posting (Andy Griffith comes to mind since I know I nominated that), because they aren't considered that groundbreaking or important. Being a non-award-winning star in a popular TV series is not sufficient for this purpose. --M ASEM (t) 01:07, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Andy Griffith died in July 2012, whereas Recent deaths was introduced in October 2012, so he was not "rejected" for RD posting. --  tariq abjotu  01:15, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Are you really saying that he is regarded as a very important actor out of all actors then? How about all his actor buddies in glee, are they also very important figures or why just him? In my opinion being widely regarded as an important figure in his field does not mean that it is enough to act in one succesfull tv show. 84.248.131.49 (talk) 01:22, 16 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep. Huge show + dying young = big news worldwide. If the criteria don't recognise basic facts of life like this, then they're simply wrong. We're talking about a line on a website, not considering him for a Nobel Prize for christ's sake. If someone like Mylee Cyrus OD's tomorrow it would be up like a shot, and not a single person here bitching about this 'violation' would be able to explain how she meets the criteria but this guy doesn't. I dare anyone, anyone at all, to claim that Mylee Cyrus is widely regarded as a very important actress or singer or whatever the hell it is she does. Mission Twelve (talk) 01:17, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * And with that, I think it's time for an admin to Close this. 01:23, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * ✅. -- Jayron  32  01:55, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Shooting of Trayvon Martin verdict

 * Opppose A badly botched political trial, with a local judge incompetent to offer felony murder, and who admitted the victim's marijuana use as justifying his murder. Meanwhile the Bulger and various other murders were of far greater notability. μηδείς (talk) 04:26, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I don´t know what you´ve been smoking, but the judge said nothing of the sort. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.235.88.105 (talk) 23:49, 14 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Strong oppose just another media-made sensation -- Ե րևանցի talk  05:14, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Good luck This story was ferociously shot down in April 2012, when Zimmerman was charged. Part of the reason for that was because it was not at the verdict stage, but that was only a small part. As you're starting to see already, a significant number of people see this whole thing purely as a media circus. Indeed, while coverage of this story was non-stop on U.S. news networks during the trial, I'd submit that the interest in this story was greater in the leadup to Zimmerman's arrest than in the leadup to Zimmerman's acquittal, and therefore we missed the boat on posting the important element of this story. The sole piece of evidence I have to suggest otherwise is the astronomical number of page views the Shooting of Trayvon Martin article got yesterday. --  tariq abjotu  05:33, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - While I have been watching this case and been keeping up with it, I have to agree with Yerevanci that it is just a media-made sensation. The main reason for the large amount of page views is because this case has been in the news quite a bit. A lot of innocent people are killed everyday in places like Chicago, Illinois and those shootings are ultimately no different. The only difference is the shootings in Chicago only get local coverage (excluding the Hadiya Pendleton shooting) whereas the shooting of Trayvon Martin gets national news coverage. Andise1 (talk) 05:40, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong support This case wasn't an ordinary "media-made sensation" trial like a Casey Anthony or a Michael Jackson, or any missing white woman syndrome here. It was high-coverage for a reason here, with the result likely heading to the higher courts, but I'll say from a judicial standpoint one of the most important state trials so far this century. With the result, it has serious implications in the United States, especially when it comes with the controversial issues of killing or hurting someone in self-defense as there is no clear definition on where that issue stands and to a lesser extent race relations and stereotyping. Secret account 05:47, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The US principle of double jeopardy makes it nearly impossible for the state to appeal a not guilty verdict (generally they have to show something like jury tampering or witness coercion). As a result it is very unlikely there will be any appeal.  This case is almost certainly done.  The result might lead to legislative action to update the laws, but that is entirely speculative at this point.  Dragons flight (talk) 06:29, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support if there's rioting on the streets, otherwise, meh. – H T  D  06:10, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Sensational murder trials that get lots of attention in the country where they happen are quite common. They are largely of national interest and have little wider impact. It would take something highly exceptional for one to warrant posting. Neljack (talk) 07:45, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - This is still pretty localised domestic news. AlexTiefling (talk) 08:27, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose, I really don't see how this is considered all that notable, at least outside of USA. If you really want a trial in the news, there was few days ago when Sergei Magnitski was posthumously convicted of tax evasion in Russia. I don't think there is a big controversy that Magnitsky trial is more notable out of these two. 84.248.131.49 (talk) 08:50, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose, just another murder case. --Njardarlogar (talk) 10:29, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * In fairness, I don't think it's just another murder case. There's a whole lot of stuff there about gun control and race relations. But these all figure in localised forms specific to the state of Florida. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:49, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The blurb would have to explain its relevance for the main page. The verdict, as far as I can tell, concerns just another murder case; exactly as the blurb formulates it. Should the verdict have any consequences, then perhaps some of these could be significant enough. But this particular verdict alone isn't. --Njardarlogar (talk) 12:05, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd guess WP:NPOV rules would bar a blurb essentially saying "ZOMG AMERICANS WERE HOOKED ON THIS TRIAL" or in a widely televised criminal trial...". – H  T  D  12:18, 14 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose per the reasons given above. If there are effects resulting from this(riots, etc.) we can revisit the issue. 331dot (talk) 11:53, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, there were a thousand or so people protesting here in Oakland. Kaldari (talk) 08:08, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support: Top news in English language media, not only from the US but also BBC, Independent, Irish Times, CBC, ... Therefore the "only domestic, only national interest" claims are not true. ITN is designed to help users find articles whose subjects actually are in the news. It is unimportant if Wikipedia editors agree that this should be in the news or not. --RJFF (talk) 12:03, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * According to this list it is one of the purposes of ITN. It's not our job to mindlessly reflect various publications, we make our own evalutations on what we choose to put in our news section. --Njardarlogar (talk) 12:12, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Given that media empires and ulterior agendas do exist, we cannot simply post every headline news that's in the papers. Wikipedia is an independent force and is under no obligation to report on the main page everything that's making headlines nor should it. Last thing we need is another website subjected to sensationalisation created by the media for financial purposes. YuMaNuMa Contrib 12:28, 14 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - per RJFF. There are a lot of wider implications here: the "Stand Your Ground" law, Florida and US race relations, the nature of gun laws, the irregularities of the trial, the ongoing repercussions and the overwhelming news coverage. I usually ignore items I feel are tabloid in nature, but this story is iconic, and ITN-worthy. Jus  da  fax   12:10, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Then these things need to be implicated by the blurb, and any impact this verdict is thought to have must not be mere speculation; but generally accepted to be real. If it is not thought to change anything or reinforce status quo beyond what is normal for a verdict of similar sort, it is just another murder case. --Njardarlogar (talk) 12:23, 14 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose at present time. The case, regardless of how the verdict was to be handed down, was certain to face additional legal challenges, and it looks like there will be, at least as a civil case. It is an importance case about race and stereotyping but the impact is unclear yet. (And while fortunate we didn't have riots like the 1992 Los Angeles riots, the fact there wasn't any makes the impact of this case for ITN less likely.). --M ASEM  (t) 13:30, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Secret said it well. Anyone in here who claims this was just another murder, or it's just a media hyped story, really doesn't know anything at all about American society. The reasons why this case has been followed with such interest, and generated so much controversy, are beyond obvious. Some people have already listed them, but it's frankly disgraceful people even need to do that to counter such obviously false grounds for opposition, such as this completely made up claim that it's only been a domestic story (and even if it had been, right at the top of the page it clearly states, "do not complain about an event only relating to a single country"). Mission Twelve (talk) 17:26, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, because kids don't get killed in other countries, right? Media made it a huge deal from nothing. The US is a country if 300 million and I'm sure racially controversial murders take place every week and media happens to choose the "best" ones. -- Ե րևանցի talk  18:47, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's exactly what I said. Trayvon Martin is the only US citizen to be murdered in recent times. Jesus Christ. Why is nonsense like this even tolerated here? Mission Twelve (talk) 01:49, 16 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support. We really need to stop refusing to put obviously notable stuff on the main page. Was it a media-made sensation? Maybe, but who cares if it was? It was definitely a major news story, and every news outlet in the country considered this to be very very newsworthy. We're an encyclopedia; we're a tertiary source. The secondary sources' opinions are already in. Just like they were with DOMA, just like they were with countless other huge stories that either didn't make it onto the main page, or barely got enough !votes to. Let's stop second-guessing the media to support whatever biases we have about what warrants news coverage (I forgot that The New York Times is a "sensationalistic" source), and do our fucking jobs. — PinkAmpers  &#38;  <sup style="color:#000;">( Je vous invite à me parler )  17:36, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not so much that this is a notable story, but its consistency with other trial cases at ITN. Everyone fully expects more court efforts to come about so there will be more legal challenges and thus this isn't the end of the story. The acquittal doesn't change anything about common law nor change anything about race in the US (since it was limited to Florida). It didn't cause the riots that some had suspected with the acquittal. Ergo, it's not as a major a trial result as we would normally want to see before ITN posting. --M ASEM (t) 17:44, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "More court efforts"? Huh? Under double jeopardy rules, this is almost definitely the end of any criminal charges against Zimmerman. And I don't think it has to be a major trial result. It's a major trial, and it's as relevant now as it'll ever be. If there are Constitutional challenges against Stand Your Ground, or legislative efforts, then we can cover those separately. — PinkAmpers  &#38;  <sup style="color:#000;">( Je vous invite à me parler )  18:02, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The killer can be sued civilly for wrongful death and under federal civil rights charges as he killed his victim acting as a town watchman with tacit approval of the government. μηδείς (talk) 21:34, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * And there's word this morning that there may be federal hate crime charges placed against him. Clearly the legal battle is not over, even if there's no criminal penalty. --M ASEM  (t) 17:17, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Conditional support since this is the final verdict on a very high profile case, but only if this leads to a large public reaction or some sort of protests.  Spencer T♦ C 18:59, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support – Sadly the media is taking this and running a muck with it. It's become far more notable than it really should and has taken a spot as major news. People want to know about this and everything behind it. Just look at social media outlets, they exploded last night when the verdict was announced. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 19:31, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Changing to support since protests/rallies have sprung up across the country, with at least one becoming destructive. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 21:40, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support This has become international news. It was on the national news in Australia this morning. Elements that make it notable internationally are the carrying of handguns (something about America that's seen as weird elsewhere) and the race issue (seen as an American thing too, though Australia hasn't been too kind to its original citizens). Protest marches are being reported. It seems from some of the posts above that some would just like it to go away. It hasn't. It's big. And I doubt if it will be the end of this matter. HiLo48 (talk) 20:51, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - The story is definitely "In the News".--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 21:39, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose. I didn't post when this originally came up because I expected this to be thrown down, as per conventional opinion re: overly sensational trials. This is, of course, no different. It is a relatively basic murder trial blown up by the American media to turn into a racial frenzy bloated with misinformation and conjecture. The only reason I see why we would post this is due to mass protest, which was the reasoning behind other trial outcomes, something that did not occur here. With that said, it would be foolish to entertain this. <font color="#4B0000">Eric <font color="#550000">Leb <font color="#660000">01 (Page &#124; Talk)  21:57, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * And your qualifications for making statements like "relatively basic murder trial" are what exactly? It strikes me that if you have a "very basic murder" case on your hands, you don't let the guy walk free until public pressure forces you into a very public reversal. And you don't then fail to even get a conviction for manslaughter if what you had was a "very basic murder" case. If people can call the attention over this trial simply a product of media hype, then I'd be amazed that they would even consider public protests of any interest at all, such a delusional outlook on the world would seem to go hand in hand to me. Mission Twelve (talk) 01:49, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose media, special interest and political sensation... the only reason it is so prominent in the news.--NortyNort (Holla) 02:19, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Historic outcome with important political repercussions. I would also like to express my concern that a white and middle class userbase on Wikipedia cannot understand, and perhaps resist understanding, the importance of this decision for people of color. Owen (talk) 03:11, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * As an outstanding expert on American society, please share with your views on how "important" this case was for "people of color". -- Ե րևանցի talk  03:42, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Obama commenting for the nation for "calm reflection" and not violence is a start Secret account 04:10, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It doesn't take much effort to infer (either through your personal knowledge of the case or some brief research about it) that he's referring to the idea many have that this case, and the verdict, highlights the racial inequity existent with the American justice system. In other words, the perception is that had the races of the victim and the killer been reversed, the verdict would have been different. Or, going back even further, had the victim not been black, the confrontation that led to his death never would have taken place. These undertones have existed throughout this saga. Some would argue these perceptions are with basis, while some would argue they are without basis. Obviously, one does not have to be black to feel these concerns are with basis (and you don't have to be white to feel they are without basis), but I feel it's perfectly reasonable for Owen to suggest that a predominately white set of people (in aggregate) might be less likely to sympathize, and certainly empathize, with black people who feel the system is against them. And, because of that, he might feel such a set of people might be less likely to see the value in this story than a greater, more diverse community would. --  tariq abjotu  04:16, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Whites, Blacks, Asians, Jews, Greeks, Armenians, Pashtuns, Arabs, Cherokee get killed also, don't they? Why make it a huge deal? Again, this case is simply a media-made sensation. As Morgan Freeman once said, if you want racism to go away stop talking about it. -- Ե րևանցի talk  04:30, 15 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Evidence supports that Zimmerman did not follow Trayvon because of his race, additionally Zimmerman is not white, he is Hispanic. Some of what you have said may be true in spite of that information, and you can probably thank NBC for the doctored transcript and the media in general in their attempt to make Zimmerman a white devil.  Arzel (talk) 04:37, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Arzel, this is a ITN nomination to decide whether the article belongs in the main page, not a place for what you thought of the case in general. That comment is inappropriate here, see WP:NOT. Secret account 04:56, 15 July 2013 (UTC)


 * There are two separate questions. Is this an important case/verdict?  Is this a well-supported/justified/motivated nomination according to existing policies and values?  I happen to think it's the most important criminal case from a sociological standpoint since OJ.  I also think it is a bad nomination according to our policies.  We don't push the news.  We don't help the encyclopedia by making it a tool of other agendas.  There may be a lot of popular interest.  But we won't improve the project by posting this.  A week from now this will be stale.  What will WP have benefited during that week? μηδείς (talk) 04:29, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Media went out of their way to sensationalize this case (including doctoring audio conversations etc...). As an encyclopedia which ITN is part of, i dont think we should be doing the same. The case as it stands was made to look about racism by media and if we were to look at facts alone then its not much more than random shooting in one country where guns are problem to begin with. I dont think this serves any encyclopedic value. -- Ashish-g55 14:40, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Why don't you suggest deleting the article then if you think this was just another murder? What a load of utter rubbish. The media covered it because people were outraged and it generated massive levels of controversy. Why do people like you have such a problem with that? Anyone who can read an article like State of Florida vs. George Zimmerman and say they didn't learn anything new, is a liar. If law professors and judges can debate the various issues this case raised for months on end, then I'm damn sure some random Wikipedian doesn't really deserve to be considered a better arbiter of whether or not it was just another trial. Mission Twelve (talk) 01:49, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The case is what it is due to media and nobody can deny that. For ITN purposes yes it was another trial. My note was meant for ITN and ITN alone and has nothing to do with the article or the case itself. ITN does not and should not post every single case that media loves to talk about was the point. -- Ashish-g55 14:01, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I can deny it, and I do deny it. You are basically ignoring all the facts about the case just to make a pathetic protest here about the way the media works, which you seem not to like, for whatever reason. Mission Twelve (talk) 12:36, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose storm in a teacup. Not unlike bigotgate, an article that was deleted. Regards, Sun Creator(talk) 16:26, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * In case anyone isn't aware, this guy really did just compare the huge and long running controversy over a murder trial which has sparked protests across the US, to the complete non-reaction in the UK to Gordon Brown torpedoeing his already failing election bid with a mildly offensive remark caught in an open mic incident. Comparing the two is really quite ridiculous. It's borderline trolling. Infact, no, I'd have no issue with calling this a bone fide attempt to troll. Mission Twelve (talk) 01:49, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose unless Wikipedia reanalyzes its treatment of court cases ITN - There is something seriously inconsistent about the community 's decisions concerning whether and which court cases should be ITN. The Supreme Court of the United States guts the Voting Rights Act of 1965, a landmark piece of legislation that was the crown jewel of decades of struggle in the Civil Rights Movement, and the decision to strike it down will effect literally millions of people for generations--and hardly anyone posts on its ITN nomination. Now, one person is found innocent of murder in a Florida trial court, and all of a sudden people are interested in talking about the "importance" of court cases being ITN? I do not mean to diminish the significance of Zimmerman's case in any way, because it's clearly important and has generated a great deal of discussion about racial oppression in the United States, and on that basis I would probably otherwise support it being ITN. But unless some objective criteria and not simply "I personally feel like this case is important, but this other case isn't" can be established to help guide the community in determining which court cases can make ITN, then I'm going to oppose this nomination. –Prototime (talk · contribs) 17:36, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * How does that even make sense? Nobody is going to create objective criteria for how we measure the importance of court cases just because you have a strop here about an unrelated case not being discussed enough (and really, Supreme Court decisions affecting millions of people? Isn't that what they are there for? And aren't there a few million people in Florida alone? Literally speaking). Despite the fact you claimed otherwise, your intention is quite clearly to diminish the significance of this case if you are willing to oppose it unless someone acts on demands that nobody is going to take a blind bit of notice of. Mission Twelve (talk) 01:49, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It makes perfect sense to suggest criteria and to object to cases being placed willy-nilly as ITN items in the absence of criteria. That is the conversation I am hoping to start. You are free to make guesses about my intent, but that's missing the point entirely. And it's not really just Shelby County, it's any number of landmark cases that are routinely disregarded as ITN. If a landmark Supreme Court case can be disregarded by Wikipedia as an ITN item, then there is little reason why cases that are neither landmark nor Supreme Court should be included, irrespective of how significant they are (which this case is, as I said, pretty significant). If you would like to actually have a conversation about criteria that can help guide the community on this issue as I have suggested, by all means let's begin; otherwise, I will not take a "blind bit of notice of" anything you have to say. Alternatively, if what you are trying to say is that this is the wrong forum to voice this concern and nobody will take a "blind bit of notice of" it here, perhaps you (or another editor) could kindly point me in the right direction. –Prototime (talk · contribs) 02:30, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It makes no sense at all to oppose this nomination just because you want to have a conversation about future policy. You might think there is "little reason" to take notice of cases which aren't landmark or Supreme Court decisions, but just because you say it, doesn't make it true. Especially not when the whole world quite clearly is taking notice of it, and it is having ramifications and consequences over and above what normally happen for even landmark or Supreme Court decisions, a basic fact which cannot simply be dismissed by the nonsense being talked about by others about this all being just 'media hype'. Mission Twelve (talk) 12:36, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, you must have missed this part: "If you would like to actually have a conversation about criteria that can help guide the community on this issue as I have suggested, by all means let's begin; otherwise, I will not take a "blind bit of notice of" anything you have to say." –Prototime (talk · contribs) 14:07, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * How did I miss it? I said quite clearly, it doesn't make any sense. If you don't want to justify your opposition of this trial with reference to the actual trial, then go right ahead. I'm sure it will improve the reputation of ITN no end. Mission Twelve (talk) 15:00, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The US Supreme Court decision that was not posted lost out mostly because people felt that the gay marriage decision to follow was much more important. I would say that one should nominate court cases with as many secondary sources that one can find that say that there will be lasting impact. Point out encyclopedic content too. Abductive  (reasoning) 04:52, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That was my point above as well... where is encyclopedic value in the case (which got a fairly rude reply)? was this a landmark case that impacted a law? ITN should not post every case that goes into media frenzy. at the end of the day this is an encyclopedia not CNN -- Ashish-g55 14:06, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The encyclopedic interest here is obvious if you bothered to read some of the media coverage or even the Wikipedia article - the long delay before there was even an arrest, the debate over 'stand your ground' and racial profiling, the disagreement between federal and state courts after the verdict, the protests and other policical reactions, etc, etc. Mission Twelve (talk) 12:36, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * All contrived and will probably go away after a week's time. Come now, we don't mindlessly follow whatever current events the media throws out there; we didn't do wall-to-wall coverage of Anna Nicole Smith's death.--WaltCip (talk) 12:41, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * WTF has Anna Nicole Smith got to do with this? If you want to play that card, you could at least name an actual trial verdict that wasn't posted. How do you "contrive" a debate about racial profiling/stand your ground/judiciary conflicts? The only people being mindless here are those claiming this is all just media hype, burying their heads in the sand about why the actual facts of this case are being seen as such a big deal by the public, media, politicians and prosecturs. The people saying this will go away in a week, were probably the same people saying it would go away a day after the verdict was announced. They're either delusional, or are trying to get Wikipedia to wrongly ignore this obviously notable trial verdict for their own personal reasons. Mission Twelve (talk) 15:00, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * People are RIOTING over this! Come on, how is this not "in the news"? --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 13:02, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "In The News" is the title, not the criteria. I'm not sure where the line is between someone throwing a dustbin on the one hand and a riot on the other, but if it is crossed, then maybe the rioting should be nominated in its own right. Formerip (talk) 14:08, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree. Riots (if big enough) would be a separate nomination that should be discussed away from the result of this case... -- Ashish-g55 14:13, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't get that logic. There is a clear link between the riots/demonstrations and the Martin murder verdict.  Saying we ahve to nominate the riots separately seems like stifling the nomination with bureaucracy.--Johnsemlak (talk) 23:24, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * dont need to create separate nomination but atleast the blurb should then focus on riots/demonstrations then... which to be honest are not all that big as far as i can tell -- Ashish-g55 00:08, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, I think it would need a line drawing. Not to "stifle" it, but because consensus is never going to be a clear without starting a new discussion. Formerip (talk) 00:13, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose Encyclopedic value is negligible, this was just one giant media hype-up. And its also too late to post it now.  ★ ★ RetroLord★ ★  07:53, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose local US news on the main page. We do not post similar verdicts against Poles, Chinese or Bulgarians. Josh Gorand (talk) 23:37, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If they made international news, as this has, because of uncommon laws in those countries, we probably would. HiLo48 (talk) 22:25, 19 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support. It looks like a large percentage of the oppose votes say something like "I would support if there was rioting or something". Well actually there was rioting, a few blocks from my house even. Yes, it's mostly a US story, but I've seen it mentioned in numerous non-US news sources. Kaldari (talk) 20:38, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Clearly a significant event in the history of race relations in the US (whether people think it should be or not). Christopher Connor (talk) 22:14, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose systemic bias warning. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:22, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Can you explain that warning please? I'm not sure what you mean. HiLo48 (talk) 22:30, 19 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment - Obama has called a press conference to discuss the decision and US Attorney General Eric Holder has called for a nationwide review of "stand your ground" laws citing the case. Protests have been held across the country (some turning violent in California) and more are planned for this weekend. Do you guys still think this event is just "media hype"? Kaldari (talk) 06:22, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * *yawn* Obama and Obama's lackey call for a press conference. Does that scream populism or what? Just another day in 'murica, this item is too stale to post now.  ★ ★KING RETROLORD★ ★  06:31, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Populism means you are appealing to the majority. Apparently you didn't see Obama's press conference. Kaldari (talk) 07:19, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] World's largest building opens in China
Apologies if we've covered this before, but it has just opened according to the article I have referenced. HiLo48 (talk) 02:53, 14 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Something more than the current stub would help establish notability. Otherwise it is basically a bunch of smaller projects within one curtain. μηδείς (talk) 02:57, 14 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support if sufficiently updated & expanded. While not as high-profile as world's tallest building, world's largest building is still a pretty important record. --ThaddeusB (talk) 04:22, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Stale Article states building opened June 28. 3142 (talk) 04:45, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per ThaddeusB, with same if too. 84.248.131.49 (talk) 09:15, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose stale, our own article says it opened on 1 July. Not "in the news" then, is it?  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:25, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, yes it is. It was in my daily paper yesterday. HiLo48 (talk) 20:52, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm sure you know what I mean. It's not "in the news" here if it occurred 12+ days ago.  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:54, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * A technically valid point, but does that mean that anything that doesn't make it quickly to mainstream western news services gets ignored? That's a a systemic bias that we shouldn't accept. HiLo48 (talk) 08:31, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Then you should look to modify the ITN criteria. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:35, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Would there really be any point trying? Would I have your support? HiLo48 (talk) 09:00, 15 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Well it's not up to me to choose, you'd need community consensus of course, but I'd support anything that got this place a bit more dynamic and expressive. Today we've posted the premature death of an actor who essentially had a three-year career and who will be forgotten in months.  Don't get me wrong, it had consensus, but in posting, the RD criteria were clearly ignored/overlooked.  So I see no problem with the "staleness" criteria being ignored/overlooked in some circumstances since the precedent to completely disregard the criteria has been set.  The Rambling Man (talk) 16:34, 15 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose purely on timing grounds. 331dot (talk) 02:05, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Surely a landmark achievement but late in the news. The article is surprisingly small as well.--NortyNort (Holla) 02:21, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Bhutanese National Assembly election, 2013

 * I've added a Reaction and Analysis section. --LukeSurlt c 23:43, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Article had been updated well - kudos to Luke for his work! Neljack (talk) 05:52, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment I don't believe the article is well-updated. --  tariq abjotu  18:37, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I've added a little bit more. To be honest, this is as good as it's likely to get. There seems to be only two AP reports from Bhutan that all the English-language reports are using. --LukeSurlt c 21:45, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I found this New York Times article as a possible source for more content. I'll see if I can add some stuff to the article from that later.  Spencer T♦ C 14:13, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support. I expanded the article with more text. Marking [ready].  Spencer T♦ C 01:48, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted --  tariq abjotu  04:27, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

UN peacekeepers killed

 * Article would need a substantial section of prose on this particular attack. --LukeSurlt c 16:19, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] China uranium plant

 * Oppose. This has only been cancelled by the "local government", leading to fears it may only be a postponement. It's pretty obvious that if this plant was deemed necessary to the Chinese economy (and if as is claimed it would fuel half the countries nuclear power stations, it seems they might), then the national Communist Party will pretty obviously think nothing of overriding the local government, protests or no protests. As the article states, public protesting is not unheard of in China. It is yet to be seen if this is a watershed moment thought. Mission Twelve (talk) 14:00, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I'm not seeing the significance here. 331dot (talk) 19:40, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

[Reposted] RD Pran
Comment The veteran Bollywood actor had featured unanimously in ITN this year for receiving the highest Indian cinema award. He was a respected name in the Indian cinematic space. Regards,  theTigerKing  17:22, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support for RD. Clearly a significant person in Indian cinema, but I'm not seeing anything that suggests suitability for a blurb. Thryduulf (talk)


 * Obviously support on notability (for RD) - however, the orange tag needs addressed and the death section needs more than just one sentence (e.g. reactions) before it can be posted. --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:34, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose article has a single sentence about his death, no reactions, and numerous style issues like dead links, is this what we want to feature on the main page? The Rambling Man (talk) 17:38, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Don't post with all the dead links - it would be embarrassing. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:54, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support RD if article is cleaned up. --LukeSurlt c 17:44, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * support RD but after cleaning up and updating article..-Nizil (talk)
 * Support for RD: I sense that one of the socks of User:Shrik88music has been on the article. Hence the mess and unnecessary statistics. I have reverted the article to possibly best version of past. But dead links still remain. Have added one comment on death by PM. Will add more. §§ Dharmadhyaksha §§ {T/C} 19:15, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support upon article cleanup. Clearly notable in his field. 331dot (talk) 01:03, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Marked as Ready All the dead links have been removed. The artcile has a small section on his death. Tributes would definitely pour in today as he had died last night IST. I guess we don't have to make the article a tributary of sort. Lets do justice with his body of work Period. Regards,  theTigerKing  02:24, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support this is definitely updated. μηδείς (talk) 03:03, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The career sections are largely unreferenced (and orange tagged). Fixing dead links is nice and all, but unreferenced material is a much more serious problem than a link no longer working. --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:47, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support for RD Pending citations being added - there is a lot of uncited information in the article currently. Miyagawa (talk) 07:54, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * COMMENT The website in the cite section is under construction (as suggested in the home page). Hence, the dead links. The article had the same links while it was posted in the ITN (when Pran was awarded with the Dada Saheb award). I believe we can post the article in RD for now. Could not find a replacement of the dead links in the web. AFAIK. Regards,  theTigerKing  19:19, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The main concern is not over deadlinks, but rather uncited information. --ThaddeusB (talk) 06:10, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * tags Technically, the movies that are linked to in the career section serve as primary sources, as long as he was credited in them, which seems highly likely. Tagging the whole sections is neither helpful for the article or here, individual claims that need support should be tagged.  If the full ITN blurb was justified, it seems pointy to oppose the ticker at this point. I am going to remove the section tags, and ask that specific claims be tagged instead. μηδείς (talk) 19:31, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * As you like. Some tags added.  Also, this article is very poorly written and very poorly formatted. "Various celebrities have congratulated him on this occasion...", "Amitabh was going through a bad patch in his career", "continued to cast him in pivotal roles", "Pran's performance as the negative character was very much appreciated in Dilip Kumar starrers"... do those who support this actually read the article?  It's appalling.  The Rambling Man (talk) 21:00, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I've read worse--but don't tell me here, it's not my nom and I have no personal interest in the topic. μηδείς (talk) 00:29, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * This article was posted (with a full blurb of course) in April. Has the article really deteriorated so significantly since then? --  tariq abjotu  22:31, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Article when it was posted, around the same quality, surprised it was posted in that shape though the article was way worse when it was first nominated in April. Secret account 04:51, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It should be obvious, but I'll say it anyway - a past mistake (posting with insufficient quality) is not sufficient justification to repeat the mistake. --ThaddeusB (talk) 06:10, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Is it all even worth discussing now, that too for a RD where only four alphabets will be displayed? We should simply close this discussion. Also its no longer news now. §§ Dharmadhyaksha §§ {T/C} 05:54, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The item can still be posted, it is no where near stale yet (i.e. older than the oldest blurb). I have no clue what the rest of the comment means. --ThaddeusB (talk) 06:10, 15 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Ready I have commented out a few claims, removed the tag from one which claimed Pran and Dev Anand worked together--the movies themselves are linked and they credit the two--further references aren't needed. LionBase1234 has added refs for other claims.  At this point the article is untagged and ready. μηδείς (talk) 18:35, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted to RD.  Spencer T♦ C 20:12, 15 July 2013 (UTC)


 * The Rambling Man, the article looks ready now. I've done a basic cleanup on the prose, which has improved the article. It still contains a few problems, but I don't think that it should give ITN any problems. The article is certainly Ready. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 20:13, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Pulled as the article has copyright/close paraphrasing tag that needs to be fixed. Secret account 03:19, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I spot-checked for copyvio content when I posted and I don't see the tag in the article; what exactly was the copyrighted/closely paraphrased content?  Spencer T♦ C 13:52, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Repost this is incredible. We have a 36,000 byte article to which someone adds a page-wide tag with no comment on talk?  It should be reposted immediately unless tags are immediately added to the specific disputed claims. There is no other way to address them. μηδείς (talk) 03:29, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm leery about adding potentially copyvio material to the Main Page; I'll look over the article again to try and figure out what was the issue. I also asked for clarification of the tag on the talk page of the user who tagged the article.  Spencer T♦ C 13:52, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * This looks strikingly similar, but which came first...? The Rambling Man (talk) 14:03, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia did. From your link: ...and the Dadasaheb Phalke Award in 2013[3] for his contributions towards Indian cinema. Notice the "[3]" in the middle of that sentence.  Spencer T♦ C 14:09, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I see Spencer left a note for the editor who tagged the article. That editor did not give any reason on talk oredit summary for his action.  A bare link on RD doesn't convey any copyrighted material, so it should be safe to restore if we don't get a response soon. μηδείς (talk) 17:26, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I did some investigating, and the tag was added by user Bonadea after she noted some additions by a now blocked user (editting here in good faith, apparently) were close to the source material he posted. I went through his additions and rewrote everything from scratch.  Hence there's no reason at this point to fear copyvio, and the item should be reposted.
 * Reposted.  Spencer T♦ C 20:51, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Brétigny-sur-Orge train crash

 * Comment you are supposed to include references in the nomination, the BBC are currently stating seven dead with numerous injuries. In any case, we'll need to see how this develops, but it's a mild support right now.  The Rambling Man (talk) 17:09, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose six fatalities, just one of those things, unless someone finds out it was a bomb or something, this isn't particularly notable. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:00, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support subject to article expansion. I came here to nominate this. It's still very early days so there isn't much to the article yet, but it's clear this is a major incident (although the BBC are presently saying 7 rather than 10 dead) and more details will emerge. Thryduulf (talk) 17:10, 12 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support, Link for AP story, suggest editing blurb to "passenger train". --M ASEM (t) 17:16, 12 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose unless this develops greatly in notability (crime suspect, death toll exceeds 20, notable victim, edifice harmed) it just amounts to a sad, but routine accident, not worthy of featuring, if even encyclopedic recognition. μηδείς (talk) 17:39, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * What do you mean "routine"? This is the first significant railway accident in France since the Zoufftgen train collision in 2006. Thryduulf (talk) 17:56, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * My position is quite clear, there is no point in us detailing every 7-death transportation accident. Why do you not instead explain what is encyclopedic about this, since the burden lies entirely on the nominator to show actual notability? μηδείς (talk) 18:02, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Your position is clear, but your reasoning is not. We indeed do not write encyclopaedia articles about every 7-death transportation accident because there are thousands of such road accidents each year. This isn't a road accident though, it's a high-speed derailment of a passenger train at a busy station (which is very rare), also rare are fatal railway accidents in not just France (first since 2006, deadliest since 1998) but most of the rest of the world too - the Fairfield train crash in Connecticut resulted in 0 deaths for example. Thryduulf (talk) 19:24, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I think Medeis has made her position clear, no point in chasing it. Six deaths in an accident in France with nothing more to report isn't that notable.  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:38, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support once article is ready. Mjroots (talk) 17:58, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Disasters with this sort of death toll are pretty common, and we certainly don't post most of them. I'm not seeing anything sufficiently special about it to warrant posting. Neljack (talk) 23:24, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Most people are not going to know how to pronounce "Brétigny-sur-Orge" and this has caused no traffic jams in the San Francisco area. Formerip (talk) 00:51, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose unless there is something else notable about this (terrorism, criminal act, etc.). 331dot (talk) 01:02, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Query. What is the history of posting similar train accidents on ITN? Have such accidents been regularly posted, or rarely posted? Abductive  (reasoning) 03:22, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Just like the Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214 crash which was covered ITN, this is a rare and therefore notable event. The number of dead and critically injured people is similar. Cochonfou (talk) 07:52, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Plane crashes are rarer events than train crashes; we just posted the Lac-Megantic wreck. This was the first fatal plane crash of a large airliner in the US since 2001 and only the second accident involving a 777(which first flew in 1995). 331dot (talk) 08:00, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * And this is the first fatal train wreck in France since 2006. Again, these events look very comparable in magnitude to me. It is not every day that a Boeing airliner crashes, and it is not every day that a train from SNCF wrecks. Both have excellent safety records. Cochonfou (talk) 09:20, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comparing Template:Aviation_accidents_and_incidents_in_2013 to Template:2013_railway_accidents, it looks like train accidents may be rarer that plane accidents (assuming both templates are reasonably well maintained). Formerip (talk) 11:52, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Notable train accidents arerarer than notable plane accidents, especially as it seems that articles about borderline notable (and frankly non-notable) air accidents are created more frequently than articles about similar rail accidents. The Lac-Megantic disaster and this accident happening so close together is completely coincidental and is no more relevant to the notability of either any more than the Asiana crash has any bearing on the notability of either. Thryduulf (talk) 14:17, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support: rare major disaster, worst train accident in France in 25 years. -Zanhe (talk) 08:57, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support This is very similar to Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214 which was posted, I will find it extremely odd if this is now decided to not be worthy of posting. 84.248.131.49 (talk) 13:13, 13 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support. It shouldn't even need explaining really. If an air crash like Flight 214 is the bar for inclusion for disasters, then a multiple fataility train crash in an advanced western European country like France easily has the same level of significance. The intensity of media coverage is the same, that's for sure. Anyone who thinks these sort of rail disasters are just a routine part of life in that part of the world, but fatal plane crashes for modern airlines/ers in modern airspaces are extremely rare, is just completely delusional. I am amazed people even have to think about it. But there you go. This is apparently a place where a human powered helicopter is a huge achievement, but landing a drone on a carrier is no big deal, and where Wimbledon is an awesome spectacle of top level sport, but the Lions are just a bunch of exhibitionists just playing sport for a laugh. Mission Twelve (talk) 13:48, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Notable rail accidents are actually rarer than notable air accidents; the only difference being that we have an active number of editors at enwiki who believe that every incident that doesn't result in a plane landing normally is worthy of an article. They're wrong. Black Kite (talk) 15:23, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Fatal train crashes in developed countries such as France are rare. –Randor1980 (talk) 16:16, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted --  tariq abjotu  18:46, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Rare F1 Mercedes Sells For Record £19.6m ($26.4m)

 * I doubt more than a one line update can be made for this... so oppose -- Ashish-g55 16:20, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Sounds like DYK. μηδείς (talk) 16:36, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree with Medeis, would make a fine DYK, but not really ITN. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:06, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Apart from the fact it's in the news? :) It's broken 3 world records, it's newsworthy for as long as people drive cars and auctions sell things Torqueing (talk) 17:10, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree selling an historic car for a large sum is newsworthy, but then again, so is the highest 10th wicket partnership in Test cricket which was a world record broken yesterday (along with another world record for highest score by a number 11 on his debut). It's all about how this would appeal to our global audience.  The Rambling Man (talk) 17:15, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * We have posted other auction records (on art, for example). However, I have to agree with Ashish that the inability for an extensive update is a concern.  If the article was substantial improved in some way (either general expansion or finding a way to write about the auction in a meaningful way [how did it come up for sale, for example?]) I would support. --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:45, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, if it's broken some record for auction, then that should be included in the blurb, otherwise it's "car sells for loads of money". The Rambling Man (talk) 18:01, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose – aside from being a complete waste of money (end bias opinion), what makes this ITN material? Sure it may be something rather notable within the realm of racing and auctions, but that's about it. There's nothing outside a line of X car sold for X cash and no real world repercussions, positive or negative. As stated before, it's something more worthy of DYK than ITN. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 21:55, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The same could be said for sculptures (4 February 2010) and photographs (15 November 2011), these made it for ITN because people paid "silly" money for them and you saying these are more significant to cars. Donnie Park (talk) 00:36, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Had I noticed them then, I would have given a similar oppose. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 01:21, 13 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Strong support – We had records for arts, sculptures and photographs appearing on ITN, so why can't record for cars appear or do I smell double standards, or the works of several people is insignificant to the so called expressive work of one man. Not forgetting car auction records have always been big news and these record breakers are never forgotten, thats by the public and motoring press; example Bugatti Royale (1987), James Coburn's Ferrari 250 GT Spider California SWB (2008) and Ferrari 250 Testa Rossa (2009 and 2011). Donnie Park (talk) 00:27, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "car auction records have always been big news these record breakers are never forgotten" – That's all fine and dandy, but what's so important about it? It's a car that's really expensive that has no major impact aside from that guy's bank account. I don't see any notability outside of the the car and auction world. I don't consider something that pertains to such a small and specific realm of the media as "big news," but I could just be ignorant since I don't care much for cars. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 01:30, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "I could just be ignorant since I don't care much for cars" - you made your claim there, the same there as I couldn't care less much for art and sculptures either, I'm not a supporter of giving lottery and government grants to keep these arts to public hands and very very few cars received handouts. "I don't consider something that pertains to such a small and specific realm of the media as "big news,"", it may not be as big as people rioting, dying in plane crashes, people winning some big event, what about that Coburn's California, it managed to appear in Top Gear (link below), my point is to a car person, people remember these cars for a long period of time. Donnie Park (talk) 14:50, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per Donnie Park. 331dot (talk) 01:00, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose in case that's not clear. Get back to me about double standards when they hang this in the Louvre. μηδείς (talk) 01:05, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I take hanging at some snooty gallery is a ITN criteria, how about let James May drive it (Top Gear, Series 18, Episode 7) sample link. Donnie Park (talk) 01:25, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It's simply offensive when you accuse people of a double standard. I know a lot of people I often disagree with here who go out of their way not to have one. You'd have been much better off making an objective case in favor first, rather than throwing accusations. μηδείς (talk) 01:31, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * A bunch of motorbikes managed to get their show at the New York Guggenheim Museum, so why can't cars, oh yeah there was one consisting of Ralph Lauren's personal collection at the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston in 2005 and at the Musée des Arts Décoratifs, Paris in 2011, so you saying cars can't be art. Donnie Park (talk) 14:37, 13 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose. I think there are two differences between this car and an artwork. First, there have been artworks that sold for more than it. Examples include the Guennol Lioness, an 8 cm tall ancient statue, for $57.2 million, and the The Card Players for a quarter of a billion dollars. Second, art has more depth of meaning to humanity than a vehicle designed to improve a company's image. Abductive  (reasoning) 03:17, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Then you have no understanding of the word "art" Torqueing (talk) 06:40, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, thus "art" is a highly subjective subject. What people consider "modern art" I consider messes half of the time. People also consider cars a form of art, I see them as modes of transportation. Conversely, people see anime as plain cartoons, I see it as a form of art. Perception of art differs greatly from person to person so criticizing someone for having no understanding of what "art" is basically amounts to telling them they're not entitled to their opinions. Not that I'm claiming such were your intentions, however. That's just how it appears to me. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 13:03, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You made the same argument as I did. Artistic merit is in the eye of the beholder Torqueing (talk) 18:26, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If it is art, then it is by no means ITN-worthy since it sold for so little. If it is not art, then it is not ITN-worthy at all. Abductive  (reasoning) 22:57, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - Blurb at present says 20 pounds. Order of magnitude is missing. 64.201.173.145 (talk) 12:18, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Ireland approves life-saving abortion

 * Lean oppose. While significant for Ireland, legalized abortion in any form is not a unique thing in the world.  Many US States have taken the opposite route (passing more restrictions on abortion). 331dot (talk) 14:06, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: The article makes it seem as though this is not yet a final decision, as the Seanad still needs to pass it and the President needs to sign it into law.  Spencer T♦ C 15:18, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree it's certainly newsworthy, it's incredibly significant if it passes in law. We need to wait until that happens, I think.  The Rambling Man (talk) 17:07, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * What is actually meant by this? An abortion where the mother is not in immediate danger?  Even the Catholic church allows surgery that might kill the baby if the mother is in immediate life-threatening danger. μηδείς (talk) 17:42, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I believe its not so much about health but suicide. So if mother is deemed suicidal Ireland will allow abortion. A bit weird but major development for ireland since they got much tougher rules against abortion -- Ashish-g55 18:12, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I suspected that might be the case, in which case I oppose as written. μηδείς (talk) 18:43, 12 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment: This needs a much better blurb. What is obviously of interest here to everybody is whether abortions will be harder or easier to get. The blurb doesn't tell me. (And I, like most readers, am not going to go clicking on random links in the hope of finding out.) We must summarise the significant change(s) in the blurb. HiLo48 (talk) 04:41, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted to RD] RD: Alan Whicker

 * Support. Long career and recognized with some awards and a CBE. 331dot (talk) 13:52, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per 331dot. Thryduulf (talk) 14:56, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Neutral - article is pretty short right now. I would hope more could be said about someone notable enough to post on RD after a 60 year career.  Death update is sufficient.--ThaddeusB (talk) 16:15, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * To be fair, he did spend 29 of those years hosting the same show. Can you pinpoint the omissions please, and I'll do my best to fill them in.  Otherwise I think we're well over the line for RD inclusion.  The Rambling Man (talk) 17:05, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Neutral I would have opposed on importance, but this documentary, which I always thought was about David Attenborough, makes me withhold opposition. μηδείς (talk) 16:44, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Well some press are referring to him as a legend, legend, legend, legend.... The Rambling Man (talk) 16:51, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * A neutral is about as good as you can expect from an American who has thought he was Attenborough for five decades. μηδείς (talk) 18:46, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Shame really. Some Americans may take the opportunity to re-educate themselves as to his impact and legacy.  Others may not I suppose.  The Rambling Man (talk) 18:52, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * How? It's not our fault he wasn't big enough to break into the American market. :) I'll gladly watch his best-of, if the BBC hosts it on line and doesn't put a blackout on American viewing.  Until then, let me know what you Brits think of John Facenda or Charles Kuralt. I didn't think so. μηδείς (talk) 18:58, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Between "let me know" and "I didn't think so", you didn't give us much of a chance, did you? ;) (And they're both well beyond ITN inclusion)... (And I suspect a BBC blackout on "real" news broadcast to America is to prevent mass panic.....) The Rambling Man (talk) 19:20, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * LOL at last bit :) --ThaddeusB (talk) 20:05, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You proved my point, TRM. While I am willing to be neutral about this chap, you are happy to put down Facenda who was perhaps the most recognized voice in radio and TV at the time of his death, known as "the voice of god" and of the NFL.  So, I didn't think so, and I was right.  As for real news, do you mean Chinese birds flying into Scottish windmills? μηδείς (talk) 20:37, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No, not really, the two fellows you noted died a decade or so beyond this nomination (I didn't "put them down", just noted that they weren't eligible for ITN/C). You know they died years ago, don't you?).  How is that helpful to this nomination?  And no, I didn't mean birds flying into windmills, I meant massive offshore windfarms providing vital renewable power to hundreds of thousands of people.  Perhaps you missed the London Array? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:09, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I assumed you were making some comment beyond staleness, which I thought was too obvious to mention. μηδείς (talk) 22:06, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No need to apologise. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:07, 12 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support Notable travel writer & reporter, 70-year career. Mjroots (talk) 18:00, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Neither having a long career nor winning awards establishes that he was "widely recognised as a very important figure" in the field of television. I will oppose unless further evidence is provided about his impact and reputation. Neljack (talk) 23:33, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * So the Queen made him a CBE just for the heck of it? I don't think she gives those out to anyone that comes along. How many broadcasters have worked 70 years?  (How many people in any industry have worked 70 years?)  In order to make it 70 years he couldn't have been too ordinary. 331dot (talk) 00:50, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you are rather over-estimating the significance of a CBE. By my count 107 people were given CBEs in the Queen's Birthday Honours List last month. With two honours lists a year, we can estimate than about 2000 people have been awarded the CBE just in the last decade. We're certainly not going to post all their deaths; I would think that only a very small minority of them would qualify for RD. Even most knights or dames (who are above a CBE in the honours system) would not qualify. Incidentally, the Queen does not actually decide who gets CBEs. Neljack (talk) 02:22, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm sure she doesn't pick each and every person on the list, but I'm sure if there was someone on it that she felt did not meet the criteria, they wouldn't get one. It's still recognition from the government that someone was notable enough to be recognized. 331dot (talk) 19:38, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Not true: she didn't think Mick Jagger should be knighted, but he was - she was constitutionally bound to accept Tony Blair's advice to knight him. Neljack (talk) 01:13, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose, no evidence presented that he was "widely recognized as a very important figure" inside his home country, and certainly not anywhere else. Abductive  (reasoning) 03:25, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Nonsense, at least the first assertion. People aren't referred to as "legends" without being widely recognised as important. Please read the sources provided and the reaction to his death before making erroneous statements.  The Rambling Man (talk) 10:29, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Jesus Christ. His obituary in the Telegraph is titled "Alan Whicker: One of television's defining figures", and the by-line is "Television has lost one of the defining figures of its early golden age with the passing of Alan Whicker". It goes on to say he was "instantly recognisable to a generation" with a "presenting style that has influenced every maker of a travelogue since" which "every significant presenter post-Whicker owes something to". Why is nonsense like this Abductive person's clearly totally ignorant comment even allowed in here? Mission Twelve (talk) 13:30, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Spoken like a true provincial. Nobody outside of your country has ever heard of this Whicker. Abductive  (reasoning) 15:18, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Did you determine that by asking every human on the Earth outside of the UK? You have no way of knowing if that is true.  Further, "Please do not complain about an event only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one. This applies to a high percentage of the content we post and is unproductive."331dot (talk) 15:29, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * ... and which Whicker have they all heard of, I'd like to know. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:46, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Jesus H. Christ, One of the most important TV figures of the last 60 years. Black Kite (talk) 15:27, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong support, although obviously immortalized, many years ago, in Whicker Island. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:06, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment looks ready to go, a single unsubstantiated oppose, and plenty of support. Plus a lot of work done on the article.  Should be enough for two words on the main page.  The Rambling Man (talk) 21:23, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted to RD --ThaddeusB (talk) 21:46, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] First-ever drone landing on a carrier

 * Support - The future is here, all right. Jus  da  fax   09:09, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Notable technological advance being covered by news sources. 331dot (talk) 09:39, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. This doesn't seem to have involved any significant technological barrier, just getting a machine that can land itself to land itself on something new. Formerip (talk) 12:14, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It's new when the landing site is moving in all directions as a ship is. Computers could not account for that until recently.  It's not as easy as it sounds. This is also likely the future of aerial warfare. 331dot (talk) 12:16, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose I'm always sceptical of publicly announced advances in military technology. What we really have here is the first publicly announced landing of a drone on a carrier. What makes any of you think that they haven't been doing it for quite some time? And that far more dramatic advances aren't happening on other fronts. This is managed, manufactured news. It's not real. HiLo48 (talk) 12:31, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The world press would seem to disagree, given it's news in most places. All technology is practiced, designed and tested before formal attempts at accomplishing its function.  The fact that it's military technology we're talking about here shouldn't disqualify it. 331dot (talk) 13:00, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * By that line of argument, almost any first would no longer be news, since somebody might have potentially have done it in secret. I have seen no hints that the US have been operating drones from carriers before now. Giving that thousands of people work on each carrier, it would also have been very hard to keep secret for long. Thue (talk) 13:07, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * An aircraft carrier is also kind of hard to hide. 331dot (talk) 13:30, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * 331dot - The world press gets excited about Hollywood romances and the subsequent babies. We don't record them here. So simply saying the media is excited is never enough to justify posting something. Thue - I'm talking about what is obviously a managed news release. The real audience of this sort of stuff is the US's enemies, and perhaps it's own citizens if they somehow feel some ownership of this. It's propaganda. Maybe we could describe it as "US military announces that it has successfully landed...". We will never know the real truth and details about military advances. This is an incremental advance, not a revolutionary step. HiLo48 (talk) 22:20, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * This is "in the news" so "excitement" of the world press is a consideration.331dot (talk) 00:58, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose, no need to parrot military PR. Abductive  (reasoning) 16:24, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. The public landing of a drone on a carrier, whether or not it has been done in private before, sets the world on notice that the U.S. may not be requiring airbases in neighboring countries to launch certain surveillance, attacks, and covert actions.  It should also warn kids dreaming of growing up to be fighter pilots that they need a new dream. Wnt (talk) 16:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * As I said above, it's propaganda, and it has obviously worked on you. HiLo48 (talk) 22:20, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not "propaganda" if it is true on its face. 331dot (talk) 00:56, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * All military press releases are propaganda, if only by the selective nature of what they choose to release. When did you last see a military press release about something costing billions that didn't work? HiLo48 (talk) 01:03, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I read about the last failed test of the US missile defense system in the news. 331dot (talk) 01:05, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Please explain "propaganda" in this context. Are you saying a drone can't land on a carrier?  I recognize there is an incremental commercialism here in that the hook links to an article which names the company making the drone, rather than linking to a general article on drone aircraft which might also fairly be updated based on such news.  I would welcome such a change in focus, but I don't see that point rising to the level of "propaganda". Wnt (talk) 14:44, 13 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose infinitely more important than a bunch of fans in the Thames estuary, but still, incremental only. μηδείς (talk) 16:46, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose far less important than providing electricity for half a million homes, and still just something that's not actually that impressive or newsworthy. Despite what vox populi think, drones can fly (and land) autonomously just as well as civilian aircraft.  This is no big deal at all. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:57, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Not convinced this is a sufficiently important step to warrant posting. The previous inability to land on carriers doesn't seem to stopped drones being widely used. Neljack (talk) 23:28, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I would suggest that those who oppose this create a drone, its avionics, and program it to land on a carrier before they state this is "not revolutionary" or "not a big deal". If it was easy, it would have been done decades ago. Their use will greatly increase in the future once drones' range is no longer limited by requirement of land-based air bases. 331dot (talk) 00:56, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll do that if you agree to crash a train and have an abortion. Formerip (talk) 01:05, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Train crashes and abortions are not unique and first-time events, as they have been done for numerous decades. 331dot (talk) 01:07, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * OK. But, if it's reasonable to ask editors to perform any feat they oppose for ITN, then I am surely not being unreasonable. Formerip (talk) 01:29, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I was using rhetoric to make a point; that this isn't as easy or unimportant a feat as people claim it is. I didn't expect anyone to go out and start designing their own drones. 331dot (talk) 07:48, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I was also using rhetoric. I don't believe anyone has said "I could do that". But the fact that something requires specialist skills and knowledge is not enough to make it suitable for posting. Formerip (talk) 11:46, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That's true, if it wasn't "in the news", which this is. 331dot (talk) 19:24, 13 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment In actual fact, reusable UASs are designed to be able to land entirely autonomously should they go off-tether. This is simply getting it to land on a very slowly moving object.  No big deal.  The Rambling Man (talk) 11:56, 13 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support. This is quite obviously both a major advance in a cutting edge technical field, and something that will be of huge strategic significance, a step change in the military capability of any nation that currently uses drones. The fact that it is 'military news' is precisely because no civilian organisation has anywhere near the kind of money it took to acheive this advance. It's really really depressing that these discussions seem to be allowed to happen in an environment where displaying total ignorance of basic facts like this is something to be celebrated. It is doubly depressing when you see an item like 'First human-powered helicopter' going up in a flash. I mean WTF? Sure it's a major achievement and deserves recognition on the main page maybe on the trivia angle and yes as a technological advance, but compared to this advance, it's nothing, and has no wider implications at all (I cannot see civilian helicopter manufacturers moving to this new power source, and neither can I see it having any impact on military strategy, except maybe by allowing microstates like Sealand to finally have an air force). Mission Twelve (talk) 13:19, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Don't give Sealand any ideas. ;) 331dot (talk) 19:35, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree, especially with the human-powered helicoper comparison - that was (interesting) trivia, this has real consequences! The whole "how hard can landing on a carrier be" angle of some of the opposes had me going WTF. Doesn't everybody know that landing on a carrier is one of the hardest tasks in aviation? Thue (talk) 21:22, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Sure, it's hard for a human. A computer just does the math(s) and the arrestor hook does the rest of the work.  Besides, these drones can fly a lot slower than, say, an F-14, so the whole task is that much easier.  The Rambling Man (talk) 16:44, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You clearly don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about. Mission Twelve (talk) 17:17, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No, of course not ;) The Rambling Man (talk) 10:34, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's what I said. If you have either the qualifications or experience to show otherwise (and I invite the others who are claiming to know what this feat involves), now would be the time to present them. Already today I've seen a BSc student dismiss the Travyon Martin murder trial as "relatively basic", so I can't wait to see what your qualifications might be to be able to dismiss this as "no big deal". Mission Twelve (talk) 02:06, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I am more than suitably qualified to discuss this topic but I don't need to fax you a copy of my CV to prove it. You'll just have to believe me!  Welcome back, by the way. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:40, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Nobody suitably qualiified would make the statements you have in here, so if you don't want people to think you're just lying, you're just going to have to post your CV. Mission Twelve (talk) 12:06, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I doubt you would appreciate the irony of your statement! Or was it intended to be sarcasm?  I can't tell.  Anyway, moving on.  The Rambling Man (talk) 12:28, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I appreciate the irony. I just think people are able to tell the difference between someone pointing out the obvious when it is backed up by both the coverage and just simple logic, and someone claiming it's no big deal based on nothing but an appeal to just 'trust them' (or maybe you actually have a reliable source which describes this as no big deal?). You obviously don't know anything about what this technological acheievement entails, which is why you're 'moving on'. Mission Twelve (talk) 12:43, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No, I'm moving on because (a) this nomination is beyond dead (b) I'm arguing with someone who knows nothing about me (c) I'm fully aware of what goes into this kind of technology and (d) you've started making familiar remarks. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:52, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If this nomination is "beyond dead", then it's only because of people like you who want to oppose it even though they quite clearly know absolutely nothing about the subject. You're 'moving on' only because you know that you haven't got a prayer of providing a source that described this as no big deal. Which really wouldn't be difficult to find if what you are claiming here about either the achievement or your supposed knowledge was remotely true. In fact, the closer you claim to be to this subject, the more ridiculous it looks that you can't provide any such source. If you don't like familiar remarks, perhaps you shouldn't put people in positions where the only way they can judge whether what you say is true or not, is to be personally familiar with you (and if you don't like that coming up as a subject at all, then just don't say it - you're the person who is making this an issue about how much we know about you with all this 'trust me' nonsense). Mission Twelve (talk) 13:13, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see you badgering the other opposers. Why not ask them for their credentials?  This thread depressingly familiar, wouldn't you agree...? The Rambling Man (talk) 13:18, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * None of them made the remark "No, of course not ;)" though, that's all I'm responding to here. And familiar? Well, maybe you've had the same sort of argument with someone before, but it wasn't me. If you routinely ask people here just to trust you, then it's probably going to happen to you quite often I would have thought. Mission Twelve (talk) 13:34, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I didn't see you saying "You clearly don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about." to FormerIP (!) when they said "just getting a machine that can land itself to land itself on something new. ". Go harangue someone else, we're done here. But just for you, you should be aware that the solution to all this was comprehensively modelled nearly a decade ago. Some news! The Rambling Man (talk) 13:38, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] NSA backdoors

 * Support - Should raise eyebrows, even jaded ones, worldwide. Jus  da  fax   08:35, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Snowden is likely going to be doing this sort of thing (releasing information) for a little while and I don't think we need to post every bit of information he releases. 331dot (talk) 09:35, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment The alternative is posting nothing, which is what we have been doing, even though it has been all over the front pages. I choose to suggest this item as standing out a bit from all the other revelations - I am not suggesting to post every little bit, but we should post just a few of the bigger stories. Thue (talk) 09:39, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * In my opinion if most of his information was "little" the US Government wouldn't be pursuing him so vigorously. Everything he has is likely to be on this scale and we are not a Snowden ticker nor should we help him do what he wants to do (whether it is criminal or not). 331dot (talk) 09:44, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If everything he reveals is newsworthy, then I have no problem with being a Snowden news ticker. I don't see why we should stop posting noteworthy news just because it is coming from the same source, or because there is a lot of it. Thue (talk) 10:40, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Snowden himself is newsworthy, not each piece of information he chooses to release. We know he is going to be leaking information, just not what it is. 331dot (talk) 11:05, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Opppose - As much as I personally wish to promote this, it's unreasonable to post every single leak that has emerged. In Australia, the same leaks have revealed that Australia's largest telco, Telstra along with its Hong Kong subsidiary have been hoarding information for the US government for the past 10 years. Either sticky or don't post anything at all. YuMaNuMa  Contrib 09:59, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I could see a sticky for Snowden news. Count me as a supporter of that too. Jus  da  fax   10:47, 12 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment The Telstra thing sounds insanely notable. If it is notable then it should be posted; it would be unreasonable not to. Post all the notable things. Thue (talk) 10:43, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually the Telstra thing is not notable, as it is just the standard NSA tapping of all fibres coming into the US, which we have know of for some time. Thue (talk) 13:08, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose It's debatable how much he "reveals" is true (or at least provable). Microsoft deny his revelation  so until the facts are clear, I can't support this for ITN.  CaptRik (talk) 10:33, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment his allegations are getting enough press that we at least could (and should IMO) post it as a "alleges" new items. Thue (talk) 10:40, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support but rework. With something this political, "reveals" is not going to cut it.  That's a loaded term straight out of WP:WTA.  Say that Snowden released documents that indicate... and be sure you're going exactly with what they say. Wnt (talk) 16:37, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose or sticky, we shouldn't keep giving prominence to this one story in English-language Wikipedia. A sticky would suffice.  The Rambling Man (talk) 17:34, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Significant revelation. I agree with Thue that the fact we have posted previous stories about Snowden should not stop us from posting new ones that are sufficiently important. As I understand it, Microsoft does not deny that they cooperating with the US; it just claims that they were legally required to do so. The blurb does need to be made clearer though; I found it difficult to understand. Neljack (talk) 23:40, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] First human-powered helicopter

 * Support - Great item for an ITN blurb. International interest and quite different. Jus  da  fax   08:58, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Interesting, and different. CaptRik (talk) 10:35, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support First such flight, and won a prize established over 30 years ago, an interesting and historical story. --Bcp67 (talk) 11:35, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, but can we tweak the blurb to ... creating a working human-powered helicopter, or similar, as unsuccessful designs have been around for some time.<small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #A00000;padding:1px;"> An  optimist on the  run!    13:05, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If it isn't "working", then it isn't a human-powered helicopter, any more than my chair is a non-working human-powered helicopter. The word "working" is implicit and therefore unneeded. Thue (talk) 14:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support original blurb. Successful human-powered aircraft are rare, and winning a prize after 33 years is a significant achievement. Thryduulf (talk) 15:04, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Glad to learn about this here. Congratulations. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:44, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Needs a more thorough update. Right now it is just a couple sentences basically saying it was achieved.  Surely there is more information about it than that. --ThaddeusB (talk) 16:11, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, since it was viewed as a challenge for 33 years. Abductive  (reasoning) 16:26, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support My mother just told my nephew this weekend she'd fly up to Boston to see him if only she had wings. Now there's no excuse. μηδείς (talk) 16:52, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Ready - I have updated human-powered helicopter with the details and adjusted the bolding accordingly. (It seems to be the better place to put the history of the project/technical details.) --ThaddeusB (talk) 20:56, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted. --Bongwarrior (talk) 21:24, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Target article looks like total trash. Maybe someone who voted "support" could have fixed it before we featured it on our main page.  Perhaps we accept sub-stub articles these days.  The Rambling Man (talk) 21:31, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It has a [citation needed], I've tried to fix up the crap prose and piss-poor referencing, more to do, but I'm surprised this suddenly became "main page quality". The Rambling Man (talk) 21:39, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Note, the target (bold) article was changed to human-powered helicopter. In that article, things are referenced, the prose is fine, and while it may not be super long it isn't "sub-stub" either. --ThaddeusB (talk) 21:45, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Aha, I missed that. The new "target article" is also totally piss poor.  Why are we linking these from our main page?  Some people spend months trying to create great quality articles (FAs, FLs, FPs etc) and yet we seem happy to link totally crap articles from ITN/C.  Bizarre. (Mildly embarrassing that so many supports for such a sub-standard article came about from ITN regulars who I thought could spot a poor article from a 100 yards..)  Don't get me wrong,  is charming but I thought WP:V, NP:N, WP:RS were part of our thinking before we posted to the main page? I'm sure all those editors above who supported this for main page inclusion are aware of these and took them into account before supporting the "article" for main page inclusion........ The Rambling Man (talk) 22:11, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * We do not require FA quality or anything close to it (neither does OTD or DYK incidentally). The article certainly meets verifiability, meets notability, and uses reliable sources, so I have no idea what you are objecting to exactly.  To my eye, it is roughly of the same quality as most articles we post. --ThaddeusB (talk) 22:18, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Bingo. To your "eye" it's ok.  To my eye it's far from good.  Perhaps we have different quality thresholds.  Right now it's worse than a poor GA.  You're happy with it on the main page?   The Rambling Man (talk) 22:21, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, we appear to have different standards. I feel we should be roughly on the same level as DYK for minimum quality, which would mean this article passes.  If the standard was GA or higher, we wouldn't be posting much of anything: <1% of Wikipedia meets that standard. (Are any of the currently posted ITN articles at GA level?) --ThaddeusB (talk) 23:39, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Of the currently posted articles, excluding this one, the Asiana crash is rated "C" the others are rated "Start". So, we would have no news articles at all if we used GA or even B class threshold. ITN is a different beast to TFA - the former showcases our timeliness without claim to be our best work, TFA showcases our best work without claim about timeliness (yesterday's article was about a car that ceased production in 1967, the day before was about a 2004 hurricane). Thryduulf (talk) 12:10, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Pull article is appalling and an embarrassment to Wikipedia's homepage. I'm shocked we're happy to publicise this rubbish on our main page.   The Rambling Man (talk) 22:17, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Earliest alphabetical text found

 * Wait We need a better source or more accurate scholarly reporting. The discovery only mentions the use of consonants, which is not an alphabetic script, which combines vowels and consonants. μηδείς (talk) 20:25, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment The two cited sources only appear to say that this is the earliest alphabetic text found in Jerusalem, not the earliest in an absolute sense. Are there other stories that say it differently? Looie496 (talk) 20:43, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * According to our article alphabet there are earlier known Canaanite abjad samples from Egypt, and again, this is apparently an abjad without vowels, not a true alphabet. What is the original paper describing this find? μηδείς (talk) 21:55, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: I don't think Jerusalem should be the article updated; probably a new article about the script itself, no?  Spencer T♦ C 02:09, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Question. What article is being nominated? I think Jerusalem is an FA and probably way too long already to encompass this story. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:47, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. It's a former FA and there is no need to burden it further with this story. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:38, 13 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose, a fragment of old writing being found in a given city is not what archeology is about. Abductive  (reasoning) 16:27, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Luxembourg PM
I can't seem to find out though whether he's stepping down right now, or whether he's resigning his government and he stays on as a caretaker PM until the next election, as happens so often with other European countries. I'd rather be clear on what's happening before I lend my support. Redverton (talk) 18:22, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support subject to update. Isn't a change of head of government ITN/R? Thryduulf (talk) 10:09, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - Per Thryduulf. QatarStarsLeague (talk) 14:36, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - definitly for ITN.--BabbaQ (talk) 17:44, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It's the whole government who fall with him, this seems to mean that there will be new elections (which is the prerogative of the Grand Duke, something which is more than just nominal power in this country). The legislature is effectively suspended at the current time, no new laws can be passed. I've changed the blurb to "government falls" rather than "PM resigns" because I'm not sure whether the PM's office is technically vacant or not in this inter-election period. There's certainly someone watching Jean-Claude Juncker who won't let the infobox be changed as such. --LukeSurlt c 21:08, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There is his statement about the affair here. Unfortunately neither me nor Google can read Luxembourgish. Thryduulf (talk)
 * Well the two 109 IP edits are mine. I forgot to log in. :P  But other people have been reverting changes to the infobox as well.  It certainly does seem like Juncker himself is stepping down right now, as opposed to the government in general, but I'm getting no indication at all on who'll succeed him.  The PMship surely can't remain vacant until the elections, because it looks like they'll be in October.  But whatever, the blurb change suggested is right, because at least then we know we're on solid ground.  I've suggested an alternative blurb highlighting the huge length of service - it's perhaps one of the more interesting things about him that he's the longest serving head of gov in the world right now. Redverton (talk) 21:46, 11 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support Government falling in controversial circumstances is sufficiently significant. Juncker has also been a figure of importance on the European stage beyond what one would expect from the size of his country. Neljack (talk) 21:37, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posting Secret account 06:05, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] China floods

 * Support Clearly a major disaster. Neljack (talk) 04:58, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per Neljack and our posting of the Alberta floods. Thryduulf (talk) 08:13, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted. Normally I would prefer to wait for a bit more discussion, but we're overdue for an update, the article looks good, and I don't anticipate much opposition to posting this. --Bongwarrior (talk) 08:31, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support as per above. --LukeSurlt c 08:55, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per above comments. CaptRik (talk) 10:30, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - for ITN.--BabbaQ (talk) 17:45, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] World's most obese country

 * Strong support as long as an appropriate article is created/updated. Nergaal (talk) 19:02, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose silly social-science nanny-state busy-body-ism and borderline racist. We don't post which countries have the highest alcoholism or demographic extinction rates. μηδείς (talk) 19:06, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * would be really odd to post there are more fat people in mexico than US. will come out sounding like an achievement lol -- Ashish-g55 19:10, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - This story would not be up for consideration were it not for the fact that the U.S. was the former recordholder. Ergo, U.S. centric.--WaltCip (talk) 19:32, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Medeis. There are plenty of similar records broken every year, and I don't see why this one is particularly important for inclusion. Even if we agree on its importance that sets it apart from the numerous other records omitted, the fact this is appropriate nomination for ITN is challenging since, at first glance, it suits better for DYK.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 19:45, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * not DYK obviously not a new article, nor significantly expanded, but yes not ITN either. EdwardLane (talk) 21:02, 10 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose and tomorrow, Liechtenstein? And next week Western Samoa?  Not newsworthy at all.  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:27, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Liechtenstein not a even country according to the CIA's World Fat Book. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:21, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose As per Medeis et. al.. Trivia, not highlighting Wikipedia content of particularly high quality Pedro : Chat  20:34, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong Oppose Is this a joke? WTF? !!!!!Nottruelosa (talk) 20:52, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Nottruelosa - Erm, the nominator stated "This might not be worthy enough to be on ITN, but I decided to nominate it to get opinions from others". That's right up in Wikipedia philosophy of being bold yet seeking consensus. I personally oppose it, but there's no reason whatsoever to respond with "WTF is this a joke" sarcasm that helps no-one and disparages a good faith nomination. Pedro : Chat  21:01, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I don't think this is a US-centric issue, nor a joke nomination, but ITN isn't really for that sort of trivia. 331dot (talk) 21:02, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Fat chance. It seems that's only for the world's largest countries. lol. The jolly old CIA, who seem to be behind this lovely league table claims that American Samoa gets the prize. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:16, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Tabloid fodder. Not proper science. And where's Australia anyway? HiLo48 (talk) 22:20, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * ... slouching along, just behind UK, of course. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:27, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Closing. The OP made a good faith nomination, but is taking enough abuse.  I'm closing this per WP:SNOW.  -- Jayron  32  22:34, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Big iceberg

 * Oppose 720km2? What is that, like a few square yards? μηδείς (talk) 01:35, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You have every right to oppose, but don't make yourself seem so ignorant. Try to come up with a real reason. HiLo48 (talk) 07:59, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I am fairly certain I am the only one who has. Can you explain yourself without the personal criticisms? μηδείς (talk) 19:07, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Not sure there's a direct personal attack here. Suggest HiLo48 retracts it please.  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:31, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No retraction is needed. μηδείς (talk) 01:17, 11 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Weak Support-It seems B-15 was gargantuan, but this iceberg is nonetheless big. It makes an interesting news feature, however, general notability will be what precludes this from being posted (if that happens). QatarStarsLeague (talk) 01:39, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Is this a record size?  Spencer T♦ C 02:37, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No, there are known to have been at least five larger naturally occurring icebergs, including one 15 times larger, but I think this is the largest to form for about a decade. Dragons flight (talk) 03:03, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - It's a chunk of ice. It isn't any kind of record, and I'm not seeing much news coverage or evidence of any real-world impact. If it does anything besides float around and melt, I'll reconsider. --Bongwarrior (talk) 07:30, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Yes, It's big, but not the biggest. If it sticks around long enough to sink Clive Palmer's Titanic, I'll change my position. HiLo48 (talk) 07:59, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Not a record size.  Not seeing widespread coverage yet, either. 331dot (talk) 09:33, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Surely we have more interesting stories in the news this week than some big chunk of ice.--WaltCip (talk) 17:27, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Not at present. Maybe somebody will come early. Abductive  (reasoning) 20:06, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I cant believe there is a page that long for an unborn child. O well atleast it will go up on ITN faster -- Ashish-g55 20:22, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If somebody wants to create an article on the severe floods in Sichuan, please do so. Abductive  (reasoning) 20:38, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Get on with it then. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:39, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I can't, I have something very important to do in real life. Abductive  (reasoning) 20:45, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose big bits of ice are falling off the ice caps every day. Perhaps we need a sticky to say the end of the world is nigh.  Or that global warming is definitively real.  Or that we need to stop destroying the planet.  Or that we need to focus on step-change environmental issues which won't get laughed out of ITN.  I'm not laughing, but we need something with massive impact to get past tennis and minor air crashes etc. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:31, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Egyptian Republican Guard clashes

 * It would certainy be appropriate to have a blurb about Egypt on ITN. The Coup's article was removed due to an orange tag. I don't know if it will get fixed any time soon. However, maybe it would be better to use a sticky or something. --Tone 11:30, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * But if we can't link to the article, we also can't link to it with a sticky. Formerip (talk) 12:40, 8 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I support this in principle, but it needs a high-quality controversy-free article, which I think will be a big ask. Formerip (talk) 12:40, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, I was gonna nominate this also :) The article needs a background section and some expansion I'll help as much as I can as this has significant ramification with the only islamic party that supported the coup stepping down from negotiations. There is some info that is in the 2013_Egyptian_coup_d'état section and the responses section that should be merged in the article too.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 13:43, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Sticky? I would rather support a sticky for a week. this thing is going to go on for a while and posting a new blurb every other day isnt going to work out that well. We can re-evaluate when it starts to die down? -- Ashish-g55 13:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Blurb, Support Sticky agreed, too much going on to discuss separately. μηδείς (talk) 16:52, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Clashes of the army with Morsi forces are not a separate phenomenon, just a convenient number for journalists to hang their hat on while, say, Christians and women being killed are not included in the total. μηδείς (talk) 22:16, 8 July 2013 (UTC)


 * support blurb - even if a sticky was already up, this would be a big enough development (51 deaths now) to warrant a blurb. No objection to also posting a sticky to the Aftermath of the 2013 Egyptian coup d'état article. --ThaddeusB (talk) 19:37, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * support blurb and sticky - Largest violent response to the coup d'état. Ongoing event that warrants a sticky. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 20:16, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support blurb per Luke and Thaddeus. I suggest we wait for a bit before deciding about a sticky - it's not really clear yet how often there will be major news stories from Egypt. Neljack (talk) 21:29, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support blurb per above. Neutral about sticky, I haven't been following the story closely enough to have a useful opinion at this point. Thryduulf (talk) 21:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted at least the blurb. No comment on the sticky. The Aftermath of the 2013 Egyptian coup d'état is not all that exciting at the moment, but perhaps it will see a flurry of updates. Maybe once the current coup-related story drops of ITN? --  tariq abjotu  22:57, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Video Available:File:احداث الحرس الجمهوري, اطلاق النيران من تجاه المؤيدين.webm--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 23:34, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * ITN image sizes are too small to feasibly include video as the corresponding image.  Spencer T♦ C 02:34, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Change blurb the blur has misleading information. There is no evidence that the reported killed people are morsi supporters. Please change the blurb to be just people. I suggest "Over 50 people are killed in clashes at the Egyptian Republican guard headquarters"--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 00:07, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Many news outlets say that the people who got shot were demanding the return of Morsi. (It was not said very often that they were members of the Muslim Brotherhood.) That is the evidence that Wikipedia uses, and seems NPOV to me. Abductive  (reasoning) 01:14, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Bodh Gaya Explosions

 * Comment: Maybe we can add "a UNESCO World heritage site" in the blurb, if its not very crowded. §§ Dharmadhyaksha §§ {T/C} 04:13, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose No serious damage and no fatalities. Neljack (talk) 04:43, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Wording seems strange. "Serial blasts", used in our blurb and in the article needs explanation, or different wording. And are we sure it was terrorism? (And not just some guy grumpy about something?) HiLo48 (talk) 05:10, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Article's lead edited now. I suppose we can wait for main page release till more clarity is available in the matter. Many suspects and motives are speculated as of now and waiting would be good. §§ Dharmadhyaksha §§ {T/C} 05:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment The blurb should start with "A series of bombings" etc. "Nine serial blasts" implies there were nine series of bombings that took place, which is not the case. –Randor1980 (talk) 10:35, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. I think that bombings of or at World Heritage Sites are notable, especially one related to one of the world's major religions. 331dot (talk) 10:59, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, World heritage sites are notable, bombings there are not common. --Tone 11:30, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support i think the quantity of bombs sort of makes this notable regardless of the site. Being Bodh Gaya only adds to it. Article looks like its in decent shape as well. -- Ashish-g55 13:27, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support-One of the most-recognizable religious loci in the world. Very notable. QatarStarsLeague (talk) 14:57, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * 'Support – This is a bit like blasts going off at St. Peter's Basilica, the London Synagogue, or Mecca. Definitely needs included.--Newbiepedian (Hailing Frequencies) 15:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - I don't know what a "serial blast" is and I doubt many readers would instantly understand the sentence. Please use the standard "a series of blasts" or if necessary "Nine blasts".  Also the use of lists in the main section of the article is strange.  It should be in prose.  See WP:PROSE. --ThaddeusB (talk) 16:31, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * support but rewording of blurb needed. "Nine serial blasts" is not right "nine blasts" is ok. All blasts were not in temple premises. Unesco w h site should be mentioned. Please rewrite blurb.-Nizil (talk) 18:17, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I have provided alternate blurb. QatarStarsLeague (talk) 01:16, 9 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Ready I have cleaned up some of the the grammar and commented out a few items whose meaning is too unclear to guess. I suggest we go with "Nine bombs explode at the Mahabodhi Temple, Buddhist site of the original Bodhi tree, injuring five." μηδείς (talk) 01:29, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted I've used a blurb somewhere between all the ones proposed. I also felt it was important to provide some geographic context (i.e. that the complex is in India). --  tariq abjotu  01:57, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support with little correction "Nine explosions in the holy town of Mahabodhi Temple". It should have word Town and Temple.- Bhooshan NPY (talk) 09:35, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Longest ever Semifinal at Wimbledon

 * Oppose - This is pure sports trivia. Longest Wimbledon semifinal, but not the longest Wimbledon match ever. --Bongwarrior (talk) 19:49, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - It is both the longest semifinal and beats the longest final which are the top two, therefore it is not simply trivia. Nottruelosa (talk) 19:55, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * ?? Am i missing something here? Even if we ignore the fact that this is a stat about a semifinal, what's the point in putting anything about a semifinal after the final has happened. Close per SNOW -- Ashish-g55 19:57, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The only thing wrong with this nomination is that I waited too long, I should have put it here before the Wimbledon was over Nottruelosa (talk) 20:26, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * SNOW close. While this nomination was made in good faith, we already posted Wimbledon per ITNR.  This story is just sports trivia and not a news story; I'm not seeing coverage by news outlets, just the tennis website listed here.  This also is just about a semifinal; if it was the final, that could be included in the blurb; or if it was the longest tennis match of all time, then maybe. 331dot (talk) 20:42, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Unfortunate very late line call. Doesn't look that impressive against (or even appear in): Longest tennis match records. Maybe next year? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:51, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose/Close as per 331dot. --LukeSurlt c 21:33, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I could have supported posting it when it happened with the understanding it would be replaced by the final results, but that ship has sailed obviously. --ThaddeusB (talk) 22:59, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Solar Impulse

 * Commment I've suggested an alt-blurb that highlights what I think is the significant aspect of the story in case people think it is worthy of ITN. Personally I'm reserving judgement until I've thought about it a bit more. Thryduulf (talk) 22:15, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The blurbs are incorrect. This isn't the around-the-world flight; that one is planned for 2015. This is a flight across the United States (not non-stop or anything, but still entirely under solar power). It's an interesting project, and I would probably support this regardless. --Bongwarrior (talk) 22:33, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose sorry to burst your bubble guys, but they have not yet circumnavigated the word. The first version of the airplane just finished going across the US, presumably to raise funds. The second version of the aircraft is supposed to go across the ocean(s), and I remember them mentioning that it would happen in 2015ish. Nergaal (talk) 22:35, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah sorry, I obviously misread the article. Thryduulf (talk) 22:41, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - The plane has now landed. Andise1 (talk) 03:25, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - Not as huge as the upcoming around-the-world flight, but still an impressive achievement and a pretty big tech story. --Bongwarrior (talk) 04:03, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose The first flight was ITN-worthy. The first trans-Atlantic/trans-Pacific flight will be also. A stop-start journey across the US is not. --<tt style="color:black;">RA</tt> ( &#x270D; ) 23:41, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Lac-Mégantic derailment

 * Comment I did a couple of updates this afternoon because I had time, but I'm not reliable. I'd also put this nomination on hold until we know more. This could be a major disaster (100 missing right now) or just a spectacular explosion. pm (talk) 21:58, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support but wait on posting – Major disaster regardless of fatalities. Several thousand people evacuated with over 100 missing. Once the article is expanded a bit and more information comes, I'd be comfortable with this going up. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 22:08, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support if 30 buildings have truly been destroyed this is a major disaster already, even with no more fatalities, however article should be expanded more before posting. 188.238.36.251 (talk) 22:11, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Details are really slow to come in, there's been nothing new for a while except the confirmed death. This is why I initially recommended waiting a bit. Concerning the buildings, this image tells the story. pm (talk) 22:35, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Significant destruction such as this is notable, regardless of the casualties.  Large number evacuated, too. 331dot (talk) 22:33, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - huge disaster whether or not a bunch of people died. Article is sufficiently updated. --ThaddeusB (talk) 00:55, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Ready well-updated and unopposed, basically a whole town wiped out by an industrial accident. μηδείς (talk) 01:27, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted --  tariq abjotu  01:59, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Five dead now. pm (talk) 16:22, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted in 4 hrs and with 1 dead person? Hos is that notable enough for ITN? Weve many articles with updates for longer.  Yet no postingLihaas (talk) 02:25, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * This is a huge industrial accident that would have been notable with 0 dead. And where were you over a day ago that you are complaining now? μηδείς (talk) 02:28, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

In retrospect, it would have been better if it had been posted later, after the estimate of 60 dead and missing had come out. Tip of the hat to whatever energy or railroad media management people managed to arrange the biggest round of headlines to make the accident sound almost harmless. Wnt (talk) 03:01, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Asiana Airlines Flight 214
A plane crashes at San Francisco Internation Airport. - Eugεn  S¡m¡on  (14) ®  19:44, 6 July 2013 (UTC) Note: This did not use the template. I had put the template on to make this correct, but I left the original comment. <font color="Orange">Citrusbowler (talk) (contribs) (email me)  19:53, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support when more information is added to the article. Also, at present the article has a blatantly non-free image. Abductive  (reasoning) 19:48, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support This is a big event that can garner headlines. However, I do agree that the article needs more info and has to have the non-free image removed. <font color="Orange">Citrusbowler (talk) (contribs) (email me)  19:56, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * close Two injured, one seriously enough to be transported to a hospital? μηδείς (talk) 19:58, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Close? What? --  tariq abjotu  20:05, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Closing this now would be improper; this is a good faith nomination. 331dot (talk) 20:09, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Wait for more details to come in on the nature of the casualties. 331dot (talk) 20:08, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose I won't say close, but early reports suggest no fatalities. It's only early reports, so that could very well change. But if there really are no or few fatalities, there isn't really an ITN story. If we reported every plane crash, ITN would be filled up pretty regularly with them. Without trying to seem macabre, a plane crash isn't an ITN story unless there are mass casualties. Redverton (talk) 20:10, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Blurb could use some work, but it's an international event, even if no fatalities are reported. Why would only deaths make it notable? <span style="font-family:Georgia, serif;">Steven Walling &bull; talk   20:14, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Because whilst plane crashes aren't necessarily a regular occurrence, they happen often enough that a plane crash is not in of itself a notable event. We don't post every plane crash, unless there's something particularly notable about it, and a plane crash with no fatalities is nothing particularly notable. Redverton (talk) 20:26, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm !voting to repost for sure, now that fatalities were confirmed. This is the first crash of a Boeing 777 involving fatalities, ever. <span style="font-family:Georgia, serif;">Steven Walling &bull; talk   01:26, 7 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Leaning support I would normally oppose crashes without fatalities, but have you guys seen images of the airplane? The amount of damage to the plane makes the fact that there were no causalities incredibly notable IMO. At a first glance it reminds me of the Hudson river crash-landing a few years ago. Nergaal (talk) 20:18, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support That people are opposing based on the lack of casualties is unsurprising (given the way people think at ITN), but absurd. This story is obviously in the news, and the fact that there were no fatalities is irrelevant. Yes, we cannot and do not report every plane crash on the planet. However, this is a Boeing 777 operated by a major world airline with hundreds of people aboard (crashing at a major airport where traffic will be severely disrupted). This is only the second hull loss for the Boeing 777, one of the world's most populars planes, since it was introduced in 1995. The previous 777 hull loss was British Airways Flight 38 in January 2008 (with surprisingly similar circumstances: a crash upon landing at a major airport with everyone surviving), and that was posted. BA38 caused serious disruption at Heathrow and led to an investigation that uncovered a potentially fatal flaw in the engines on 777 planes (that almost took down another long-haul jet). Plane crashes and hull losses for wide-body jets are (thankfully) quite rare and all are, rightfully so, notable international news stories. --  tariq abjotu  20:25, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Leaning oppose – I'd hold off until more details about the well-being of the passengers are known. With only two injuries stated thus far, there's nothing that really sets this apart from other plane crashes to make it ITN worthy. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 20:34, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted per developing consensus. Tariqabjotu's point is very convincing.--v/r - TP 20:37, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There's an understanding in all "support" comments on ITN/C that they're actually "support, provided the article is sufficiently updated". The Asiana Airlines Flight 214 article does not meet the update standards yet, regardless of whether notability standards have been met here. --  tariq abjotu  20:43, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * His opinion of calling other people's comments "Absurd" is indeed a cvery comvincing reason to post???Lihaas (talk) 02:27, 8 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, that was certainly quick. --Bongwarrior (talk) 20:37, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * For people look for a more macabre story, local news is now saying at least two fatalities and 12 taken to hospitals. Dragons flight (talk) 20:41, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Per tariqabjotu. If more information should come forward that indicates that this is not notable, we can re-examine should that happen.  A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:08, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Could someone explain the notability of this? Planes crash all the time.68.101.71.187 (talk) 21:12, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Wait Still looks like a relatively standard aviation accident, despite 2 deaths I've read about. Brandmeistertalk  21:14, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. A hull-loss accident of a wide-body jet operated by an airline with premier league standards at a major international airport is news whatever way you look at it and however many people are or are not killed or injured. Thryduulf (talk) 21:26, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment I've posted a couple blurbs and a photo. The article is improving and hopefully isn't too far from the quality needed for posting to ITN. --  tariq abjotu  21:33, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose This seems to be fairly minor aviation incident, of course things could change. 188.238.36.251 (talk) 21:36, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - fatalities now being reported, third 777 hull loss. Mjroots (talk) 21:41, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, yes, I said "second"... I didn't think it was too exciting to mention a plane catching on fire at the gate (we don't even have an article on that, and I doubt we would). --  tariq abjotu  21:46, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Is the "posted" remark above accurate, or a support vote? μηδείς (talk) 22:37, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It was posted briefly. The poster quickly pulled it, but didn't note the pull here. --Bongwarrior (talk) 22:40, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Pull. I don't usually support pulls, but this incident is relatively minor as others state, with few casualties so far. 331dot (talk) 22:36, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree, but it is not actually posted yet. Formerip (talk) 22:37, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * An admin should fix that. μηδείς (talk) 22:38, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * An admin should fix what? It was posted but removed by the same person after eight minutes, primarily because I mentioned that the article wasn't (and perhaps still isn't) long enough. --  tariq abjotu  22:50, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It shouldn't say "posted" here in bold without also saying "pulled" here in bold. I am not about to start messing with that--an admin should, that's why they're alled admins. μηδείς (talk) 23:36, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Repost have you guys even read the arguments made opposite to your views? Nergaal (talk) 22:39, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The reason for not posting is that plane crashes are not particularly uncommon and nothing really distinguishes this. Plus, it's a terrible mistake to take the view that we should blithely follow whatever 24h news carriers think is the most wow thing currently happening. I don't see any strong counter-arguments, but I do see a bit of scratching around to defend a weak position. I don't know if this is the second or third hull loss for a 777, but I don't think it's a clincher either way. Formerip (talk) 23:18, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose - I was going to say disproportionate US-centrism, but I'll try to find another way. It's going to be massive news on the TV screens and websites of our American and other English speaking readers, because it's in a very accessible place and pictures are readily available. It's a sad but very minor incident on the scale of global aviation. Can those who are understandably terrifically excited about it tell us if they would be even nominating it if it happened in a third world nation and there were no pictures? HiLo48 (talk) 22:53, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Difficult to say. Part of the reason this is notable is because it happened at a major international hub airport in a country with first world airport safety standards and first world landing systems etc designed to make incidents significantly less likely. There are not many airports in the developing world that have that kind of technology and many (but not all) airports in those parts of the word have lower safety standards. I suppose I would be less likely to support if this was at a small regional airport, regardless of country. Without the pictures I don't think I would be supporting it this early because it would likely be harder to appreciate the severity of the incident, but if this exact incident happened at a comparably major international airport with comparable safety standards in say Kenya (although I have no idea of such an airport exists there) then yes I think I would still be supporting. For the record though I'm British, not American, and so this is not a case of home nation bias. Thryduulf (talk) 23:10, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, when I was last at SF Airport I was told, by officials there, that its technical facilities were crap. That was about five years ago. Dunno if it's improved since then. HiLo48 (talk) 23:13, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * My only visits were three weeks apart in 1995, so I can't help with any personal knowledge. A friend who is into planes rates SFO highly, but don't really know on what criteria. Regardless, the technical facilities will be being judged in comparison to similar US Airports (almost certainly inluding LAX) rather than airports in places like Nicaragua and the DRC. Thryduulf (talk) 23:22, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm trying to think of an airport so third-world that there wouldn't be pictures of the event within a few hours, but so popular that an airline would find it worth their time and money to fly an aircraft there that could fit over 300 passengers. This comparison cannot be made because examples of such don't exist. And on what basis do you say that this was a "minor incident" on the scale of global aviation? One of the world's largest, safest, and most popular airliners experiencing a hull loss with passengers aboard is very much notable and of interest in aviation.
 * Honestly, this is truly aggravating. ITN/C is happy to shoo in stories that most people probably don't see in the news because they check some superlative boxes, but when we have a story that is in the news, we need to find any excuse to take a wait-and-see approach. -- tariq abjotu  23:38, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose I said close above when there were no reported deaths and say oppose now that this has made it into the ranks of very minor deadly air accidents. We'd never post this if it happened in San Jabip. μηδείς (talk) 23:40, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There is no basis for that, and we likely never will have any. Planes of this size don't fly to tiny towns in remote places; how can we make that comparison? It is likely true that CNN would not have wall-to-wall coverage if a 777 crashed like this in Jakarta, and it is likely true that CNN would have nonstop coverage if a 737 landed like this in Los Angeles, but the inequity of coverage should not shield the notability here. We post plane crashes that meet notability standards from all over the world (e.g. 2012 Kazakhstan Antonov An-72 crash), so I fail to see the problem here. More likely, if this crash had happened in "San Jabip", we would have gotten no objection. --  tariq abjotu  23:54, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Just because something is in front page on newspapers does not actually mean that that story should also be on wikipedias front page, at least that is my understanding, we do not post new stories there everyday after all. This is interesting story certainly, but since it seems deaths have mostly been avoided this is not in my opinion notable enough unless something changes. Size of the accident plane should not be a factor here. 188.238.36.251 (talk) 23:55, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I wonder how many Americans understand how disproportionate their news coverage is? (I acknowledge that my own country's is pretty bad as well.) As I said earlier, "It's going to be massive news on the TV screens and websites of our American and other English speaking readers, because it's in a very accessible place and pictures are readily available." One could argue that the imbalance is so bad that many people in western nations don't see it because they even don't see what happens elsewhere at all. I want everyone to have a look at the school shooting article below. 42 people, mostly kids, killed. Did it make your TV news? This is a global encyclopaedia. We must look beyond the balance chosen by TV executives in wealthy nations. HiLo48 (talk) 00:06, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you overstate the exclusivity of this problem to western nations; people are more interested in stories that are closer to them, both geographically and emotionally -- that's just the way things are. That being said, I already addressed this point above: the inequity of coverage should not shield the notability here. Yes, stations like CNN are devoting more airtime to this story because it happened in the U.S. However, the fact that they do so doesn't mean that every one of their top stories is trivial and not worth ITN's attention. This discussion should be about the notability of the story as it is, not a rehash of the same tired arguments about the quality of American news coverage or the alleged insularity of its viewers. --  tariq abjotu  00:43, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Please don't misrepresent me. I did not say "that every one of their (CNN's) top stories is trivial and not worth ITN's attention". Nor did I suggest anything like that. Resorting to misrepresentation weakens your case. HiLo48 (talk) 01:00, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Right. The comment I responded to said nothing about this particular incident and was just pontification about the bias of U.S. media. In conjunction with your oppose vote, it is obvious what the thrust of your opposition was. I don't really care what you believe "weakens my case"; everyone involved with ITN knows well that you have a reputation for yelling U.S.-centrism at every news story, so there is no need to really refute your remarks to that effect. Therefore, you can ignore my preceding comment if that makes you feel better. --  tariq abjotu  01:10, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * So now we're at the stage of personal attacks and labelling editors, eh? I have tried very hard to choose my words very carefully here. All you are doing is discussing and insulting me, rather than rationally discussing my words. As I've already said, such posts significantly weaken the case for posting this. HiLo48 (talk) 03:07, 7 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support Please see Two deaths, 181 hospitalized, 1 person unaccounted for. SarahStierch (talk) 00:15, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I think we all already knew that. HiLo48 (talk) 01:00, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It wasn't in the article until that was confirmed (about ninety minutes ago now) and some people opposed explicitly because there were no fatalities, so, no, it is not correct to assume everyone knew that already. --  tariq abjotu  01:10, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

HiLo's assertions, while typical of his participation here, come as a bit of a surprise. This was an international flight (originating in South Korea), for which the reported passengers included 141 Chinese, 77 South Koreans, 61 Americans and 1 Japanese citizen. And as Tariq noted, the crash of British Airways Flight 38 (which occurred in the UK) was too, despite a lack of fatalities. —David Levy 05:22, 7 July 2013 (UTC) While notable, the fact that this was the first fatal crash of a Boeing 777 needn't be mentioned in the blurb. Readers clicking through to the article will see this information in its lead. —David Levy 20:01, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - China Germany India Australia Nigeria Nigeria Switzerland France Ireland North Korea South Korea etc. show that this event is being covered internationally. Andise1 (talk) 01:15, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Pull I was quite aware two people were dead when I reposted my opposition above. This is historically and encyclopedically minor and, if I dare say so, hugely, what do they call it? Youessocentric? Who in the world s going to care about this a month from now except the victims and plaintiffs to the lawsuits? μηδείς (talk) 01:33, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You really think an administrator is going to listen to a line of argument like this? Look at Boeing_777 as well. Shii (tock) 01:46, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The first fatal crash of one of the most popular airliners, following 18 years of service, "is historically and encyclopedically minor"? And it's US-centric, despite the fact that this was an international flight from South Korea on which 78% of the passengers were of Chinese, South Korean or Japanese nationality?  —David Levy 05:22, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Endorse post as administrator. I was just headed to post it myself when I saw it already had been. Ks0stm  (T•C•G•E) 01:48, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support post. People are focusing far too much on the death toll here--the crash of a plane the size of a 777 is a rare event indeed (and was in fact a Korean airplane in case no one noticed) and suitably notable.--Johnsemlak (talk) 01:51, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * File:Asiana Airlines flight 214 crash at SFO- cropped.jpg might make for a better image. Nergaal (talk) 04:18, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm interrupting a wikibreak to support this item. I find the opposition mind-boggling.  A Boeing 777 crashed — resulting in a hull loss — and people are suggesting that this constitutes a minor aviation incident?  Even before the fatalities became known, such a claim was simply incredible.
 * David, like Tariqabjotu before you, you chose to attack and misrepresent me rather than carefully consider and comment on the actual words I carefully chose. As one of those who challenge the majority view at times, I get used to this treatment, and I know it takes a while for new ideas to take root, with rude behaviour like yours being a normal part of the process, but it's still a bad look for Wikipedia. HiLo48 (talk) 05:41, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not attacking you. I'm expressing disagreement with your position, which I don't intend to misrepresent.  (Please explain how I've done so.)  —David Levy 05:51, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd say "while typical of his participation here" is a bit gratuitous, but I do not see how HiLo48's position on this candidacy is being misrepresented. -- King of &hearts;   &diams;   &clubs;  &spades; 06:11, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Whether one agrees or disagrees with HiLo's comments at ITN/C (and I've done both), it's undeniable that many involve claims of bias, particularly related to events occurring in the United States. In noting this, my intent wasn't to insult or degrade him.  My point was that despite the frequency with which he presents such arguments, I was surprised to encounter one in this particular instance.  —David Levy 06:41, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You have still failed to understand my point. I wonder what I should put that down to? Given the most likely explanation, I see no point in again trying to explain it. HiLo48 (talk) 07:03, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know what you regard as "the most likely explanation". I do know that your refusal to explain how I've misrepresented your position leaves me unable to address your concern (or even determine whether you've understood my point).  —David Levy 07:28, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose/Pull for lack of encyclopedic content. ITN items are supposed to be BOTH relevant AND encyclopedic.  Since almost nothing about the technical details of the crash are known, casualties are very low, and impact is also low at this time, I can't see why this this in ITN.  If people want to read about the crash, they can visit whatever other news site they want.  To address Tariq's points above; if this crash lead to an investigation that uncovered a technical flaw in the aircraft (as was the case for the first 777 loss), then the article becomes ITN worthy; or if the crash disrupted traffic at a major airport for more than a few minutes, then it becomes ITN worthy; or if this were the first crash of a type, then it becomes ITN worthy.  None of those are true, however.  Lastly, internet new sites cover nearly everything that happens, since it doesn't cost anything to shuffle around their frontpage.  I know ALL of the news sites here gave the crash top coverage on their websites, for a few minutes before moving on to whatever sports or gossip thing.  Simply having an event covered in the international news is not sufficient for ITN inclusion. 91.153.150.45 (talk) 08:05, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "First crash of a type"? Like the first fatal crash of a Boeing 777?  —David Levy 08:19, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "if the crash disrupted traffic at a major airport for more than a few minutes" according to of the next 10 flights scheduled to land at San Francisco 3 are delayed, 1 has been diverted and 6 have been cancelled. I'd say that is more than a few minutes disruption. Thryduulf (talk) 08:47, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If the first-of-a-type angle is to be taken, it needs to be included in the blurb. "The first crash of a B777 to cause a death occurs in such and such" for example (there is already an altblurb, so I won't replace it with another one but if someone else wants to please do so).  And have you ever been to SFO?  Those delays/cancellations are completely normal for that airport (and completely normal for most major airports).  That's not an out of ordinary disprution at all.91.153.150.45 (talk) 08:52, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That fact that it is the first fatal crash of a 777, or indeed that the plane is/was a 777 is too detailed for the blurb. The blurb is a headline that shouldn't contain technical information. As for the disruption, the entire airport was closed for 5 hours and the incident runway and the one parallel to it remain closed nearly 15½ hours later, that is not normal disruption at all. Thryduulf (talk) 09:52, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Um, hello? The airport was closed for at least four hours. Because SFO is one of the U.S.'s major airports and international gateways, planes had to be diverted to as far as Los Angeles (550 km away). Two of the four runways at the airport remain closed, resulting in continued major delays (as of right now, FlightStats still rates the delays at the airport at 5/5 Excessive). --  tariq abjotu  15:42, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment not sure about this really, two fatalities? Some traffic disruption?  Didn't that match 2013 Vauxhall helicopter crash?  Unless anything comes from the accident investigation, I would expect the aviation project to soon nominate this for deletion as it's really not that notable. (In fact, the most notable aspects, the first fatal 777 crash and disruption to SFO are completely missing from the blurb). The Rambling Man (talk) 15:51, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, ok. Anyway, if you have a better suggestion for the blurb, you can make one (or just change it). I don't believe the disruption to the airport needs to be mentioned, because, despite the cluelessness from the IP above, I feel it should go without saying that a plane crash at an airport would cause disruption at that airport. If the "first" point seems necessary, perhaps something along the lines of...
 * "Asiana Airlines Flight 214 (aircraft pictured) crashes while landing at San Francisco International Airport, resulting in the first fatal Boeing 777 crash."
 * The problem is (a) that's quite long and (b) reading that, provided one knows what a B777 is, one would likely assume that far more than two people died. Maybe you could replace resulting with killing two people, but that still seems long to me. --  tariq abjotu  16:06, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * What do you think about: "In the first fatal Boeing 777 incident, Asiana Airlines Flight 214 (aircraft pictured) crashes while landing at San Francisco International Airport, killing two people." -- King of &hearts;   &diams;   &clubs;  &spades; 18:31, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That makes the technical detail (meaningless to most people) about the plane type far too prominent. I don't get why the aircraft model needs to be in the blurb at all, but if it does it should absolutely not be the first thing mentioned. Thryduulf (talk) 19:49, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The real notability of this crash isn't the loss of two people (that happens very frequently), but the fact it was the first fatal crash of a 777. That's why it's significant.  If this was a Cessna or a helicopter crash which killed two, it would be laughed out of ITN.  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:52, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That's a significant element, but as discussed above, it's hardly the only thing that makes the crash notable. —David Levy 20:01, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I realize that you seek to avoid repeating the word "crash" (which is highly desirable), but the first fatal incident involving a Boeing 777 occurred in 2001, when a ground worker died as a result of burns suffered in a refueling fire.
 * So if that's not the big deal, and the scarce loss of life is hardly notable, is it just the disruption to SFO that's the reason this had so much support for ITN? I'm just trying to understand what makes this more notable than, say the first helicopter crash in the City of London which killed two people and disrupted traffic in the centre of one of the world's most populous cities for days on end.  (Tariq - as for aviation project's proclivity to delete articles which have no lasting effect in their opinion, see this).  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:25, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * What is notable is the combination of all of in no particular order (a) wide-body aircraft (b) operated by airline with premier league standards (c) happened at a major international airport (d) happened at an airport with first world safety standards (e) airline with long and uneventful service record (f) caused significant disruption to the airport and (g) caused fatalities and serious injuries. I'd venture that c, d and g are the important points for the blurb. Imho the Vauxhall helicopter crash was equally but differently notable (air crash in the centre of a major world city, first helicopter crash on record in the that city, fatalities including on ground, major transport disruption), and as was pointed out in the AfD for that article just because an event is an aviation accident, that doesn't mean that only aviation project notability is relevant (although the SFO crash is pretty exclusively an aviation incident). Thryduulf (talk) 21:45, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment. That there were only 2 people killed should add to the notability of this accident. This was actually a very big accident that happened to end well due to the plane not tipping over when it cartwheeled. Yesterday when some eyewitnesses told that the plane had cartwheeled, the experts didn't believe that because the plane was relatively intact. However, it turns out that the plane did in fact cartwheel but in a rather neat way with the body of the plane and both wings well off the ground and parallel to it. So, the wings didn't touch the ground during the cartwheeling, had that happened the plane would have tipped over, and it would have been a completely different story as far as the casualties are concerned, but the dynamics of the accident would have been the same. Count Iblis (talk) 23:53, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Wimbledon

 * Support wait for the winner of the men's tournament and make one blurb for both winners. Hektor (talk) 18:04, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Prepare two blurbs for both possibilities now so that the right one can be posted immediately after the game is over. Count Iblis (talk) 12:56, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Is a blurp a type of blurb you let out accidentally and have to apologise for? Formerip (talk) 13:06, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I've corrected the typo :). Count Iblis (talk) 13:17, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The article (or articles if we go the route of updating the singles articles, which I recommend), will need to be updated with prose before they can be posted. It certainly won't go up the minute Murray finishes this off. --ThaddeusB (talk) 15:41, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You're going to jinx it. --  tariq abjotu  15:52, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Murray is serving for the match, quickly prepare a text! Count Iblis (talk) 16:13, 7 July 2013 (UTC)


 * This has concluded and I've added a blurb. Someone may want to adjust the boldings, or not. --Bongwarrior (talk) 20:23, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Do we normally bold the winner or what they've won? I've added a suggested picture. Thryduulf (talk) 21:50, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * We bold whichever article is updated. --  tariq abjotu  21:55, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted Stephen 23:24, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: Both article "updates" are quite lacking in references for each player.  Spencer T♦ C 01:17, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Yobe State school shooting

 * Support upon expansion of article. Large-scale attacks on children are notable. 331dot (talk) 13:35, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * What does age have to do with notability? That article has not much to add nor with repercussions. It could go on a list of terrorist incidents page( where I have added it). Itll just end up being an orphan stub that will be neglected, like nost article created just for ITN. opposeLihaas (talk) 16:38, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Attacks on groups of children (especially when they are targeted, as is the case here) are rare and particularly heinous, making them more notable. The casualty numbers are also increasing.  This story is now on the front page of NBC News and other organizations, indicating they find it notable enough to do so- and this is the "in the news" page. 331dot (talk) 17:00, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Being about children makes it more notable because the children were put there by adults. Adults generally have a choice. HiLo48 (talk) 23:01, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - 42 dead now and 100+ missing is quite significant even in an unstable region. (Note, most, but not all of the dead are students - altblurb proposed).  Article has been updated to minimum standards. --ThaddeusB (talk) 16:35, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think its ready. The articles main relevant section is just 2 paras long, which again can fit into the list of terrorit incidents page. Background can be found from a Boko Haram link. Don't see how this warrants a separate article. That said it is [barely] updated as required. So why not link this to the terrorist incidents page where the update requirement would still be met and we avoid a stub article once off ITN.? (that's isf we decide to post)Lihaas (talk) 16:47, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * This would presumably the appropriate incident list article. As you can see, it would not be appropriate to have even 2 paragraphs about this incident there, as it is a pure list. Around a dozen other suspected Boko Haram attacks have stand-alone pages, see Template:Campaignbox Nigerian Sharia conflict. --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:28, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - Nigeria is considered relatively stable compared to its neighbours but regardless of that, the event is significant enough to be posted on its own merits. After quickly skimming through the article, it appears sufficiently long enough to be posted. YuMaNuMa Contrib 18:04, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Far too high a death toll to ignore. Abductive  (reasoning) 19:50, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Saddening event with significant loss of life. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 20:35, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted Altblurb.  Spencer T♦ C 21:09, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Edward Snowden asylum

 * Comment Probably should accept Chapman's proposal to marry, I'm not sure whether he can leave the Sheremetyevo airport since his passport has been revoked by the US (which is the reason why he's still in Sheremetyevo). Brandmeistertalk  08:55, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - It's inevitable that ITN will revisit this story, but not now. If he actually pops up in Nicaragua or Venezuela or somewhere else, then probably. If he's extradited or captured (or has an "accident"), then certainly. But I don't think that the mere offer of asylum is a big enough development. --Bongwarrior (talk) 09:54, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Just there will be an endless stream of country who will offer asylum to Mr. Snowden. Donnie Park (talk) 11:10, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Traitors should not be on the frontpage of WP.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 11:22, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Traitor is a matter of opinion(though I share it). 331dot (talk) 11:41, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Please keep your personal politics out of this. It's irrelevant. HiLo48 (talk) 11:47, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I meant to say that too. I apologize 331dot (talk) 12:02, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * For an encyclopaedia perhaps also a matter of facts. -- ELEKHHT 12:21, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose; he's still got to get to either of those countries. 331dot (talk) 11:41, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes I agree that we need to wait, but getting to Nicaragua isn't that difficult, he can e.g. go to Vladivostok and board a cargo ship to Corinto. Count Iblis (talk) 13:01, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * He can't enter Russia without documents (his passport was revoked) and they won't give him asylum unless he shuts up(which he won't). 331dot (talk) 14:04, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Daniel Ortega can give him the necessary documents. Assange has all the documents that Snowden has, so Snowden doesn't have to say anything himself anymore. Also, Russa has said that should it be necessary for Snowden to be in the terrotory of a country first before he can apply for asylum there, that he can be brought to the embassy of that country by a diplomatic car of that country. The interior of the diplomatic car will then be considered as foreign territory. So, in principle, there is no problem for him to get asylum in e.g. Ecuador. The reason why this hasn't hapened is thus not due to the lack of documents, but due to US pressure. Therefore the fact that Nicaragua and Venezuela have come out supporting his bid for asylum is significant. But we have to see what happens next. Count Iblis (talk) 14:55, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose per Bongwarrior. Thryduulf (talk) 12:06, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Reconsider when something actually happens. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:09, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * support an amergency summit and several Latam leaders (half) have brought the issue up.(Lihaas (talk) 16:51, 6 July 2013 (UTC)).
 * These latin leaders can offer anything they want- it is meaningless until he actually makes it there (which is by no means certain yet). 331dot (talk) 17:02, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose until he shows up someplace. Abductive  (reasoning) 19:43, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Recent Deaths: Hue Hollins

 * Oppose - I'm not seeing much ITN-worthiness here. What I see is a man who did his job for 27 years - of course he botched the occasional call and reffed some Finals games. That's what his job was, after all, and it's not really a profession that easily lends itself to being considered influential or important. People don't pay money to watch the referees. --Bongwarrior (talk) 09:37, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:ITND. What was the significant contribution this person made to the field of sport? Was the deceased "widely regarded as a very important figure in his or her field"? It doesn't look like it to me. --<tt style="color:black;">RA</tt> ( &#x270D; ) 10:53, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Reading the article I don't see which criteria he meets.  I don't see evidence he was notable as a referee(one controversy isn't enough) such as awards, entry in to the Hall of Fame, etc. 331dot (talk) 11:43, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * support we don't really post refs here and he has hd a notable career.Lihaas (talk) 13:16, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "We don't really post refs here" isn't a reason to post one. Why is his career notable? 331dot (talk) 13:47, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose, I don't even see why he has an article, let alone be on the front page. Abductive  (reasoning) 19:44, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You "don't even see why he has an article" - the same reason why we give articles to Pierluigi Collina and Howard Webb. Donnie Park (talk) 21:26, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * However notable Hollins is, the article isn't nearly good enough.--Johnsemlak (talk) 02:02, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

British and Irish Lions tour

 * Am I right to understand this is a promotional event? μηδείς (talk) 05:17, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No. It's fair dinkum, fight to the bitter end rivalry between the inventors and owners of the game and some ill-bred, ill-mannered, upstart colonials. HiLo48 (talk) 05:28, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose As a big rugby fan, I can assure Medeis that this isn't a promotional event. However, I'm not sure it warrants posting. It is ultimately a tour by one team of another country. I'm not sure that there is any basis for differentiating between this and a Northern Hemisphere tour by the All Blacks, the Springboks or the Wallabies. I know Lions tours are huge in Britain, but I don't think the Southern Hemisphere teams regard playing the Lions as any bigger than playing each other. Neljack (talk) 08:43, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The Channel 10 coverage repeatedly called playing against a Lions team as second only to playing in a RWC final.  LGA <sub style="color:#8B0000;">talk <sup style="margin-left:-4ex"> edits   00:01, 8 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose I can also assure Medeis that the tour is not promotional. However, like Neljack says, it's no different to a Southern Hemisphere tour of the north. A significant event in rugby but not significant enough in rugby to merit an ITN. --<tt style="color:black;">RA</tt> ( &#x270D; ) 10:46, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "it's no different to a Southern Hemisphere tour of the north" - Except the SH sides tour every year and visit multiple contries on each tour whereas the Lions only tour once every four years and visit three countries in turn, so they vists a given country once every 12 years. A player from a host country will only play the Lions once in his career. FerdinandFrog (talk) 13:36, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Well pointed out. --<tt style="color:black;">RA</tt> ( &#x270D; ) 13:39, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment We posted the result of 2009 Lions tour to South Africa. --61.245.26.3 (talk) 11:00, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment The current blurb assumes there will be a result today - what if it's a draw?  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 11:23, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The tour is over. Lions won the 3rd test 41-16. --61.245.26.3 (talk) 12:00, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Neutral. I know many rugby fans but outside of England I honestly don't know how notable this really is.  My understanding is that in the UK outside of England this is sort of regarded as of secondary interest vs Welsh/Irish/Scottish rugby.--Johnsemlak (talk) 02:01, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Just wanted to comment that here, in Cardiff, at least the lions tour has been followed assiduously by the rugby folk I know. Pretty much on the same level as the Wales team's games. The team is made up of all the home nations so I 'll just ask for a cite on Johnsemlak's understanding. I generally don't endorse sport events getting posted but if the 2009 results went up that seems to set a precedent so weak support for ITN posting.

Rugby is one of the worlds most popular sports, if we do not place this it will make us extreme America-philes. More people watch rugby then American Football by far. If something like this happened in american football it would be all over the ---ing place Nottruelosa (talk) 01:58, 9 July 2013 (UTC).
 * Support Although we lost, it is a major event, a Loins tour here happens only every 12 years and clearly meets the ITN criteria.  LGA <sub style="color:#8B0000;">talk <sup style="margin-left:-4ex"> edits   23:57, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support It's similar in concept to | football's Confederations Cup - yes it's a series of matches limited to a select group of teams, but within Rugby it's a major internationally viewed set of matches.  CaptRik (talk) 11:13, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per Nottruelosa (talk) 19:24, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Something like this couldn't happen in American Football because it's really not an international sport. I note also that in the wake of the loss of the series the Australian coach has quit. Obviously he took it seriously. HiLo48 (talk) 07:33, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If a US American football team toured a country, that shall be all over the place as that hasn't ever happened before. – H T  D  08:17, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yep, that's true. HiLo48 (talk) 08:33, 9 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose, no lasting impact, exhibition games. Users above who argue in favor use language such as "Although we lost..." and "...second only to...", revealing the weakness of their positions. Abductive  (reasoning) 15:56, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support "exhibition games"? If you don't know enough about a topic your ignorant oppose should be ignored. Leaky  Caldron  16:08, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The article does not make your case. What does winning mean? Who do they play? As far as I can see, winning means, "Yay!" and who they play are "all the big local teams". How is that not for the benefit of the fans? Abductive  (reasoning) 18:44, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose undue weight given seriousness of other current listed items. μηδείς (talk) 16:53, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose i am a fan of sports and this is a friendly exibition game between 2 good team, not a championship, not a world championship, be in the List of sports rivalries is not enough without a proper competition, USAvsRussia, UKvsGermany, ArgentinavsBeazil are worldwide news only when it happen inside a wold championship, not in a funny tour.--Feroang (talk) 20:43, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Not a top-level championship tournament. 331dot (talk) 20:54, 9 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oh FFS I am neither supporting nor opposing this, but I cannot stand seeing bullshit posted here. It was  NOT   an exhibition game. Firstly, it was a series, not a game, and you obviously haven't seen any of the media coverage in Australia nor spoken to the fans. The Australian coach resigned after the loss!!!!!!!! Can we please get this over with and post the darn thing to stop the idiots in the their tracks? HiLo48 (talk) 22:16, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

What a total disgrace it is that this was not posted, especially when most if not all of the opposers don't seem to have even had the first clue what the tournament even is. The Lions tour is huge in B&I and Australia. It is undoubtedly the pinnacle of any British or Irish rugby player to pull on the shirt. Talk of this not being the top level of the sport, or subordinate to the world cup, or just another international series, or unbelievably, just some sort of exhibition game, is total rubbish. I hope this embarassing episode is not repeated in 2017. Mission Twelve (talk) 13:08, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Egypt blurb update
The African Union has just suspended them. Pretty big development. can we add that to the blurb?Lihaas (talk) 12:57, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose not significant enough and a usual measure regarding the interruption of the constitutional rule.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 13:15, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Usual>? UIt doesn't happened everyday that a country is suspende.d That too of Egypts stature. Most significant int'l repercussionLihaas (talk) 13:23, 5 July 2013 (UTC)


 * See also . Four things have happened: Protests, Morsi ousted in a coup, Mansour installed as interim leader and AU suspension. Ideally the four should be mentioned in the blurb, but the last is the least important if there isn't space. Thryduulf (talk) 13:37, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Normally this would've posted. Orgs like AU usually suspends a member once a coup happens. We may leave out the earliest event of the four, but one can argue that it (the protests) is the most important. However, one can also argue that the anti-Morsi protests are no longer news so... – H T  D  14:37, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment. We should just leave the blurb be unless something absolutely enormous happens. Its a developing story with lots of things happening. The upper legislature has just been dissolved and the army have been shooting people dead for example. Out of context, there are probably ten ITN-worthy stories in Egypt today, but we can't incorporate the whole story into the blurb - that's what articles are for. Formerip (talk) 15:54, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Closed since there's a more recent Egypt update and no broad support for this. μηδείς (talk) 21:28, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Recent Deaths: Bernie Nolan

 * Support RD, oppose blurb - Her death has been widely and extensively reported. AlexTiefling (talk) 07:41, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support RD, oppose blurb. I came here having seen the news and was going to propose her for RD had Andisel not got there first. I oppose a blurb because she was not a major influence in her field of music and did not apparently win any major awards. Thryduulf (talk) 08:20, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not familiar with this person, but I'm having a hard time seeing which of the death criteria she meets. --Bongwarrior (talk) 08:34, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Like Bongwarrior, I also do not see which of the death criteria this individual meets. Her article does not indicate a great deal of awards or other recognition in either acting or music which would indicate she was at the top of her field in either. 331dot (talk) 09:29, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose, does not meet RD criteria. Abductive  (reasoning) 16:15, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support RD combination of group's and her personal notability, early death, reader interest in her, and open space on ticker. μηδείς (talk) 17:31, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm Not In the Mood for a Support (Oppose), I thought The Nolans were solely known in the UK because they are on TV a lot, other than my other reason is that I can't remember the name of a single Nolan other than TV personality Colleen, who is on TV a lot. In short, not not have that notability to meet the criteria. Donnie Park (talk) 18:20, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose certainly notable to a small section of British people of a certain age but barely scratching the surface of ITN-worthy notability. Sad loss, but we sadly lose people like this every day.  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:31, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose No evidence that she was widely regarded as a very important figure in her field. Important, perhaps, but not very important. Neljack (talk) 23:58, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose (both RD and ITN) Per WP:ITND, what significant contribution did Bernie or the Nolans make to music? Was, "The deceased [...] widely regarded as a very important figure in his or her field"? No. We cannot post a death to ITN/RD every time a musician dies. --<tt style="color:black;">RA</tt> ( &#x270D; ) 10:49, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - not sufficiently notable. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:04, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] London Array

 * Support. I think "world's largest" of something is generally notable, especially in the field of energy production. 331dot (talk) 00:54, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Mere size here is a matter of addition, not engineering achievement. And if we post this, are we going to post every new field that outsizes it? μηδείς (talk) 01:03, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If it's "in the news", is that a bad thing? Maybe if a new "world's largest" one is coming along in the next week or so, but I don't believe that's the case here. 331dot (talk) 09:26, 5 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - if updated beyond the 1 sentence "it happened" - event has a large impact on power production of a major country and symbolic importance around the world. --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:18, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. The article is in a good shape and informative. Some more update would be welcome, I agree. I suggest the altblurb, instead. No particular need to mention Cameron and Easter eggs links are not a good thing to use here. --Tone 05:08, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Note that this is not the worlds largest wind farm, it's the world's largest offshore wind farm. There are two larger onshore wind farms listed here.  Don't know if that makes it any less ITN worthy, just thought it should be pointed out. --kelapstick(bainuu) 05:13, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Many past "world's largest" ITN/C's have been rejected simply because someone could make one larger in the future, and this seems to be more of the same. If it was the case that with this wind farm, in this example, was to completely offset the country off fossil fuels, that might be something more significant, but that's not here. It doesn't help that it needs the "offshore" to be the world's largest. --M ASEM (t) 05:36, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Offshore wind farms are more technically difficult to build than onshore ones. 331dot (talk) 09:26, 5 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support Impressive project, and no larger farm is currently under construction so will remain the largest for a while. -- ELEKHHT 07:44, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose, a bunch of individual towers. Abductive  (reasoning) 16:18, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support (not sure what Abductive is looking for, one massive tower that could generate enough electricity for half a million homes and reducing carbon emissions by nearly a million tons a year? Is that even possible?) This is a major success in renewable energy terms, and provides us with an opportunity to put some good news/global news on the main page.  Alt blurb is preferred, although perhaps tweaked a shade to ensure people know it's named after and position near London, England, not any other version of London.  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:35, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It's like the IRS buying a lot of bullets or some rich guy buying a fleet of cars. The individual items are of no especial notability, and the mass purchase is just cash being thrown around.  There's no technological or scientific advance. μηδείς (talk) 20:26, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Well there we should agree to disagree. I think providing electricity for half a million homes (i.e. over a million people) from one offshore farm is a truly innovative achievement and doesn't relate at all to a rich guy buying cars.  This is a decent engineering achievement, after all, by default we post flights into space even though they've become somewhat regular since the advent of the ISS.  Why not some good news, some good engineering achievement?  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:31, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Why not post the failed Russian launch? Or the largest landfill getting approved? Or the next 3-D printer hitting the market? Because these things are incremental and boring, that's why. Abductive  (reasoning) 21:03, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That's your opinion, of course, and we all naturally respect it. Thanks!  The Rambling Man (talk) 21:12, 5 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment. Would we normally name the officiating dignitary in the blurb? I don't think we've done that in the past for Chinese bridges or New York skyscrapers. Formerip (talk) 20:38, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No, I also think the Alt blurb is the better one. -- ELEKHHT 22:52, 5 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Posted Stephen 23:21, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Steinway buyout
I know this may not the most high profile event of the last week but I think Steinway and Sons definitely passes muster as a notable company (read teh article if you don't know why), and it's a very notable cultural event related to a company familiar all around the world.--Johnsemlak (talk) 22:26, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment The blurb tells me nothing about why I should care about this. What makes it different from any other company buying another? Just because the subject is notable does not mean that an event relating to them is newsworthy. Thryduulf (talk) 22:30, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. $438 million is peanuts when dealing with large companies; also not seeing evidence this sale was widely covered. 331dot (talk) 22:39, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose per 331dot and Thryduulf. Neljack (talk) 23:11, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Marconi stuck the stake in his industry a century ago. μηδείς (talk) 01:04, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted to RD] Douglas Engelbart (RD)

 * the quality of the WP article does not make him notable. Ayways, no indication he's been outstanding in his field so oppose Lihaas (talk) 20:11, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Weak support. He invented the computer mouse, which is good enough for me. However, his article credits him with inventing hypertext, we doesn't look to me to be correct. AFAICT, he invented something which he termed hypertext but is nothing to do with what we now refer to as hypertext. Correct me if I have this wrong. Formerip (talk) 20:16, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: Hi FormerIP. I won't correct you, but will point to Wikipedia's article and the history of hypertext. Perhaps that context will help. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:26, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * So, that seems to confirm what I was saying (?). Formerip (talk) 21:02, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No, on the contrary. According to Wikipedia, hypertext was invented by Nelson and Engelbart. -SusanLesch (talk) 02:12, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It says that the year after Nelson developed hypertext "Engelbart demonstrated a 'hypertext' (meaning editing) interface". Not the same thing. Formerip (talk) 11:40, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry I can't help you if you can't click a link to the history of hypertext. Maybe this demo can help. Look at clip 22. My last post here. Bye. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:13, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment The article has lots of "citation needed" tags. Neljack (talk) 21:33, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Not anymore. See below. -SusanLesch (talk) 02:03, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support. Many people who are using a mouse when accessing Wikipedia could attest that he is notable in the field of computing. 331dot (talk) 22:27, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * To clarify, I support RD only, not a full blurb. 331dot (talk) 02:12, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Very strong support as a fully-fledged ITN per WP:ITND: "The deceased was widely regarded as a very important figure in his or her field." Doug Engelbart defined the computing concepts we take for granted as end-users e.g. mouse, teleconferencing, word processing, hyptertext (e.g. HTML) - even collaborative editing, something close to Wikipedia's heart! Just see The Mother of All Demos. I've added a blurb. --<tt style="color:black;">RA</tt> (talk) 00:15, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Fix blurb. Right now The Mother of All Demos sounds like something that was invented and presented by him. -- King of &hearts;   &diams;   &clubs;  &spades; 00:42, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support RD only - highly notable in his field, but nothing to suggest a full blurb is warranted. However, the article is most certainly not B-class; it isn't even fit for posting given the large amount of uncited material.  I would also expect some reactions to his death to be added to the article.  While not crucial for ITN, fixing the short choppy paragraphs would also be necessary to reach B-class. --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:17, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I cited six "citation needed" instances. Three are left for anyone who'd like to help. -SusanLesch (talk) 02:03, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose Blurb Mandela? Yes.  Mouse?  No. μηδείς (talk) 02:08, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Mandela is not dead yet. And the man's name was Engelbart, not "Mouse". As to the two men's contributions to humanity and their respective fields: as someone with an interest in both men's respective fields of contribution, if I was in alone in a room with both but could only talk to one ... I honestly think I'd talk to Engelbart.
 * But, in any event, we don't just post the deaths of politicians to ITN. We also post the deaths of artists, business people, thinkers and, yes, inventors - particularly ones whose thoughts, ways and inventions have had as great and as lasting an impact on humanity as Doug Engelbart. --<tt style="color:black;">RA</tt> (talk) 08:51, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe Bill Gates would get a full blurb from the computer field, but I'm not really sure this man rises to the level of Mandela or Thatcher (I believe the last person to get a full blurb). 331dot (talk) 11:12, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * In his field, he surpasses them. I don't recall any significant contributions to technology made by either Mandela or Thatcher. In terms of contributions to humanity, I would say he surpasses them also (certainly one of them) - but that's not a fair comparison. It's comparing oranges to apples.
 * We don't just post politicians. Neither do we just post people because many of us have heard of them. I thought the posting of Gore Vidal and Maeve Binchy sorted that question out.
 * Certainly, I would imagine the death of Bill Gates will appear in ITN. But in terms of significance of contribution to technology, Doug Engelbart and Bill Gates are not in the same league. Bill Gates, a very adept software developer, would agree. Gates' contributions is as hugely significant business man (and over the fullness of time, as a philanthropist). In business Gates stands with the same stature as Engelbart. --<tt style="color:black;">RA</tt> (talk) 11:46, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Did Steve Jobs get a full blurb? If not then there is not justification for Engelbart imo. Thryduulf (talk) 11:48, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * He did, although there was no RD option then. But Jobs founded one of the major companies in computing. He's not really comparable to an inventor. Formerip (talk) 11:52, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Steve Jobs not really comparable to an inventor!? Jobs had 313 patents. For comparison, Engelbart had 21 and Bill Gates has 9. As for that Jobs "founded one of the major companies in computing". Yes. (And don't forget Pixar.) And Engelbart was one of the major visionaries in computing. (So too was Jobs, which only makes the two more comparable — unlike, say, Mandella and Thatcher vs. Engelbart.)
 * I think ITN tends to have too narrow a focus on businessmen (and business) and politicians (and politics). An encyclopaedia ought to encourage — and promote — a broader appreciation of knowledge. We have the content. --<tt style="color:black;">RA</tt> (talk) 19:19, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I think it's clear that, within the field of technology entrepreneurs, Jobs comes near to the top of the list. But computer hardware inventors is probably quite a crowded, flat field. Our article History of computing hardware (1960s–present), for example, mentions a few inventors, but not Engelbart. Formerip (talk) 21:51, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It doesn't mention Jobs either. Also, with the notable exception of the mouse, Engelbart was more a software guy and his contributions were in the area of HCI. --<tt style="color:black;">RA</tt> ( &#x270D; ) 00:25, 5 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support for RD. -- Jayron  32  02:13, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support RD, oppose blurb Certainly highly influential, but doesn't meet the very high threshold for a blurb. Neljack (talk) 02:46, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Either one works for me, as just letting people know that he existed is important, considering all that he did for computing. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 03:21, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support full blurb BUT if MoaD needs some expansion if it will be linked (and it would have to be linked). Nergaal (talk) 04:36, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posting to RD for now. If a consensus is achieved for a full blurb, we can still put it on. The article has one section that needs more references (I believe this will improve soon) but otherwise it's good. --Tone 05:56, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support for RD, Oppose full blurb. Medeis is right. AlexTiefling (talk) 07:05, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Medeis is wrong. Different men, different fields. Both giants. --<tt style="color:black;">RA</tt> (talk) 08:54, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Medeis apparently "wins" (?) and we get a nice RD listing. Now, how do we revisit Elizabeth Sladen? μηδείς (talk) 01:07, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You'd have to bring her back to life, and then kill her again, the details of which would likely make her reanimation and redeath full-blurb worthy. -- Jayron  32  04:27, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Per WP:ITND, was Sladen widely regarded as a very important figure in the field of acting? What were her major contributions to the field? How long lasting will they be? What impact have they had on humanity? She was not of the kind of stature with her field (as far a I know) as Thatcher, Engelbart, etc. were within theirs. --<tt style="color:black;">RA</tt> ( &#x270D; ) 12:44, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Reincarnation and a second death would surely be newsworthy, and attract significant attention from many news sources. -- Jayron  32  12:47, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I dunno. I get the feeling that if Jesus was nominated for ITN, he'd be kocked down as, "Mandela? Yes. Sandals? No." And wasn't he supposed to have done the whole resurrection thing? :-) --<tt style="color:black;">RA</tt> ( &#x270D; ) 13:29, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, but he isn't within the ITN window. That's the problem.  2000 years is a few days too long ago for us to use at ITN.  Maybe you could get it on DYK?  -- Jayron  32  13:33, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * RA's understanding of Jesus' message is "sandals"? In any case, I supported just an RD listing, and that's what happened, so I still win. Mwahahaha. μηδείς (talk) 04:09, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Egypt update
Morsi is either under house arrest or taken to a military barracks. Either eway that's a big update needed to the blurb. Even if overcomes this coup, as its being called, this is a big move. And if he is removed as prez, then its ITNR.Lihaas (talk) 17:35, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Wait It's looking very much like a coup's happened, I agree, but we don't know anything for certain. In a few hours, we'll know what's happened.  At least, I hope we will by then.  Once it's a clear a coup has happened, defo support for ITN. Redverton (talk) 19:00, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Reiterate wait Ok, we're all pretty positive Morsi's been ousted. But, it's far from unknown for a military to declare a takeover, only for the incumbent president to come on and proclaim he's still in charge and resisting a coup!  We are not a news ticker, in a rush to publish anything without confirmation.  We're better than that.  Suggest we wait until we're all utterly positive that the military and their appointed leaders are in full control. Redverton (talk) 19:27, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * we posted the "revolution" immediately. Though that article should be changed as its not a revolution. Only a leader resigned without institutional changes )As a revolution does_). We dint call the Romanian protests that resulted in a resignation a revolution.nLihaas (talk) 19:52, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Now support Morsi has released a statement calling this a coup. Whilst that is hardly the end of the matter, it does at least acknowledge that, for now, the military is in control.  So, support. Redverton (talk) 20:18, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Wait for this to settle down a bit and the details to come out,(looks like Morsi is out) but definite support once we have some info. 331dot (talk) 19:23, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, Sisi announced the coup and Morsi is not president anymore. Very significant event, showing that not every move to topple the dictators, particularly in the Middle East, does not lead to better government, unfortunately.Egeymi (talk) 19:29, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, but wait per above -- Ե րևանցի talk  19:33, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Think it's ready - Support - Coup confirmed now. I've added a blurb, it may be too long. Hello32020 (talk) 19:44, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Name of new president is wrong apparently, wait on that. Hello32020 (talk) 19:48, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: The article update doesn't explain the recent events very well and needs to be updated to reflect more details of the coup.  Spencer T♦ C 19:49, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The new prez is being called Adli Mansour on Al Jazeera live right now.
 * also strong support the coup has happened. if there is a counter-coup in the ocoming days/weeks, we can then update it as such. Lihaas (talk) 19:52, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment - when this is posted, make sure to pull the Egypt protests blubr - no sense having two blurbs about (basically) the same story. --ThaddeusB (talk) 19:56, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Goes without saying. ;) Looking for some latest sources now..Lihaas (talk) 20:13, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support and alternate blurb added - Since the mass protest blurb actually now links to the coup page (they turned the protest page into the coup page), we might as well keep mention of the protests. --Kitch (Talk : Contrib) 20:15, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted --  tariq abjotu  20:24, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Now that Adly Mansour has sworn in, shall we update the blurb? It's a head of state, after all. --Tone 05:01, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I suggest: Adly Mansour is sworn in as President of Egypt after Mohamed Morsi (pictured) is deposed in a coup d'état amid mass protests. or is that too long? Thryduulf (talk) 08:40, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Two more 'cured' of HIV

 * Oppose They may have been cured, but medical authorities have been at pains to emphasise that this has not been officially declared so. In fact, it will take a year before it can be officially declared, as they wait to see if no remission happens whilst off relevant medication.  If medical authorities officially declare a cure, I will be the first to support it on ITN, but for now it just ain't so. Redverton (talk) 18:51, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I tried to make it vary clear that it wasn't a cure by not saying cure in the blurb or put it in quotation marks in the post. This post was for that only 3 times in history has this happened (The fact that virus is no longer seen in the body). If you want to oppose on the ground that this isn't a cure that's okay, but I want to make sure that I'm not trying to pass this off as a cure. -- Everyone Dies In the End  (talk) 19:13, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the clarification. However, my point still stands - no cure has been officially declared, so this story has no worth for ITN. Redverton (talk) 19:21, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose per Redverton; we don't yet know if this is a functional cure. 331dot (talk) 18:58, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * See above as I tried to make it clear this can't be called a cure yet to begin with. -- Everyone Dies In the End  (talk) 19:13, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification, but I still oppose, as Redverton does. 331dot (talk) 19:22, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose who gives a flying - . Nottruelosa (talk) 21:38, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Abdication of Albert II

 * Support per what we did with Beatrix. An actual change in head of state is ITNR, when we know when it will occur. 331dot (talk) 14:20, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Transfer of powers is announced for July 21. Hektor (talk) 14:37, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * This is a good idea, posting now and when the transfer occurs. --Tone 15:55, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * support per precedence. But if its less than 3 weeks away then there'll be too much of this here. Otherwise its an obvious support. I'm just concerned about posting it twice in a short time. Itll be off ITN for about just over a week before it back.Lihaas (talk) 16:24, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support when the transfer occurs Transfer is in less than three weeks, and we can wait for it. -- -- Patar knight - chat/contributions 17:30, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support when it happens, per above. Since it is a short time away, we can post this when it happens.  -- Jayron  32  17:43, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per 331dot and Tone. Mjroots (talk) 21:17, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support now and when the transfer happens, as long as the two don't appear at the same time. Thryduulf (talk) 21:42, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posting. These days, ITN cycles fast enough that we will likely have around 2 weeks between the events. --Tone 06:08, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Habitable exoplanets

 * Oppose - No new planets have actually been located. This is just a paper about a statistical model of habitable zones, which revises upward an existing estimate of the total. AlexTiefling (talk) 09:26, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I wanted to state exactly the same argument. It's a nice piece of research but not an ITN story. --Tone 09:47, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose per Alex; the figure is an estimation, not an actual count. 331dot (talk) 12:18, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose per above. This is not the discovery of 60 billion such planets, but an estimation of home many exist per a certain model. -- -- Patar knight - chat/contributions 17:29, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Aceh earthquake

 * Support per nom. More than 200 injured as well, and thousands of buildings damaged. Neljack (talk) 06:28, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - Obviously not as bad as other earthquakes that have hit the region in the past few years, but nonetheless serious. Also, what Neljack and ThaddeusB said. AlexTiefling (talk) 06:52, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per the comments of the people above. CaptRik (talk) 07:22, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support BBC's article reports it as a 6.1, which should likely be in the blurb (eg, I expect that 22 to go up). --M ASEM (t) 07:28, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment Can we be patient please? Reports are, not surprisingly, varying wildly regarding victim numbers and other impacts. How about we wait, maybe 24 hours, until reporting is likely to more closely match reality? HiLo48 (talk) 07:42, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Standby Earthquakes of this Richter magnitude are not notable in Indonesia. Let's se what the Mercalli intensity scale is. -- ELEKHHT 10:36, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Although it shouldn't be the only criteria, the fact that it still killed a significant number of people makes it uncommon I think? CaptRik (talk) 12:20, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - Article quality is there, notability is confirmed by the casualties (the Indonesian news still has this on ticker, but don't quite think that counts towards international notability) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:31, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Local sources are reporting death toll at 42 and very likely to rise.. Article has been updated according and should be ready to post (of course article+blurb will be updated as new information arises.) --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:44, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * its certainly ready with consensus. For the record I would oppose as its damage seems small compared to notable earthquakes.Lihaas (talk) 17:47, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Posted -- Jayron  32  17:52, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] Evo Morales's plane diverted to Austria amid suspicion that Snowden was on board
Supppose until he's captured on board. μηδείς (talk) 00:30, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose until he is confirmed to be in transit to another country or captured. 331dot (talk) 00:40, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * According to sources in this CNN story Snowden was not on board. 331dot (talk) 00:45, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose No certainty at all that Snowden was on board, nor that anything will come from this. HiLo48 (talk) 00:49, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support The news here is that the Bolivian President's flight has been diverted because of suspicions that Snowden is onboard. That is unusual and noteworthy regardless of whether the suspicion is true. This is the second story (behind the situation in Egypt) on the BBC News, Guardian and NY Times websites at the moment. Neljack (talk) 01:26, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - a minor blip in the news at most. I doubt it even warrants mention in Morales' article.  If/when Snowden is captured or granted asylum, then I would consider posting but we do not need daily updates on his suspected wearabouts. --ThaddeusB (talk) 02:07, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Stand-by This has the potential to develop into a major diplomatic conflict: "Bolivia accuses United States of 'hostile act'", "Bolivian vice-president Alvaro Garcia [...] described Morales as being 'kidnapped by imperialism' ", "Argentinian president Cristina Kirchner has tweeted that she has been advised that Peruvian president Ollanta Humala will call a meeting of the Union of South American Nations to discuss ongoing events.", Cuba's Foreign Ministry: "This constitutes an unacceptable, unfounded and arbitrary act which offends all of Latin America and the Caribbean", Ecuadorian Foreign Minister Ricardo Patino: "We consider this a huge offense, and I will call for a UNASUR special summit ", "Uruguay president José Mujica “indignant” at the “humiliating situation”" all reported by The Guardian. - ELEKHHT 05:53, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Wait - This is a developing story. Whether or not Snowden turns up, the situation between Bolivia and the various EU nations involved may be worth posting - or could fizzle out. AlexTiefling (talk) 06:53, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support diverting a sitting President's airplane is notable in itself. 95.166.216.227 (talk) 07:11, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Whether Snowden is on board or not is irrelevant, although mentioning it in the blurb is fine. Kirchner and Correa have also made scathing remarks on Twitter. pm (talk) 07:17, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Minor point in a long saga. There's no real story here unless it evolves into something more.  CaptRik (talk) 07:24, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose However, I toss out the idea if we need a PRISM/Snowden sticky if these types of actions keep up. --M ASEM (t) 07:30, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Neutral The political ramifications for this are clear, though the actual newsworthiness is questionable. Although, if any major sanctions or scrapping of trade agreements occur as a result of this international bullying, I'm all for posting news of that.--WaltCip (talk) 12:08, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * support Funny, diverting the plane of a sovereign with diplomatic immunity is actually an act of war. But this seems to be going no where.  Talk about "third world countries".  France just frisked Morales on the corner at the behest of J Edgar Hoover, μηδείς (talk) 19:13, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Any source for the "act of war" thing? --hydrox (talk) 19:43, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Detaining and forcibly searching couriers with diplomatic immunity has been an act of war since Ancient Greece. Unfortunately we don't have a comprehensive article on the subject, and dictionary definitions are very vague: "an act, usually aggressive, that causes war". μηδείς (talk) 22:02, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support this is notable without snowden even. 188.238.107.147 (talk) 19:27, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * hmmm...repercussion sLihaas (talk) 21:11, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose silly over-reaction. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:44, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Head of states have diplomatic immunity, which amongst other things grant safe passage, it is perfectly possible that france, spain and the rest have broken international laws by refusing the air permits of morales plane, austria have certainly broken them if they searched Morales plane without permission. Perhaps the blurb should be changed since Snowden is not really relevant here. But I wouldn't call this silly. 188.238.107.147 (talk) 22:37, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * From what I understand, heads of state are granted safe passage but that doesn't extend to anyone travelling with them. Anyone else travelling with them can be refused legally, including flight crew and other passengers.  It's a technicality, but an important one.  CaptRik (talk) 08:02, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Was it safe to deny him airspace and force a landing? Abductive  (reasoning) 18:19, 5 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose unless you live in freaking Bolivia who gives a rats (censored). Nottruelosa (talk) 22:43, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Kerberos and Styx

 * Weak oppose. The IAU no longer considers Pluto a planet, therefore the names of its moons are less relevant than those of planets(by the IAU definition). Looking in the archive I see that the discovery of the fourth moon was not posted for that reason.  Can you cite examples of the naming of other minor bodies being posted in ITN?  331dot (talk) 22:02, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support perfect for ITN. Also a canard to say Pluto is no longer a planet, unless maybe dwarf people are no longer people.  A change in categorization doesn't mean a change in nature or essence. μηδείς (talk) 22:13, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That's not comparable; dwarf planets are not planets, as the opening sentence of the dwarf planet article says and as corroborated by many sources (including NASA). --  tariq abjotu  22:22, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * They are not major planets. Anything else is a bizarre torturing of the language.  Even then, it doesn't matter for the nomination--Pluto's the tenth round body orbitting the sun, and a little more notable on its own than the IAU. μηδείς (talk) 22:30, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Unlike planets, dwarf planets... Therefore, dwarf planets are not planets. --  tariq abjotu  22:40, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It isn't a change in categorization, it is a change in definition. We wouldn't post moons of Ceres or Eris. 331dot (talk) 23:55, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I am unaware of our policy of not posting newly discovered moons of Ceres or Eris. μηδείς (talk) 01:03, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Something does not have to be a written policy for it to not occur; but I don't believe the moons of other dwarf planets would pass ITN. 331dot (talk) 12:15, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support Per Medeis. QatarStarsLeague (talk) 23:51, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Just the naming of the already-discovered satellites of a minor planet. Semantic ridiculousness from the IAU aside, this isn't a big deal. AlexTiefling (talk) 00:00, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose per AlexTiefling. Neljack (talk) 00:16, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The big deal part is that it's only ever going to happen once. There aren't comparable bodies left unnamed in the solar system. This will be part of the history of Astronomy a millennium from now--it's not some soccer score. μηδείς (talk) 00:29, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You can honestly have no idea whether any satellites of minor planets remain undiscovered. Even if you count major planets, it's not so long ago that new satellites of Saturn were discovered and named. Your premise is simply false. AlexTiefling (talk) 00:33, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There is no body the size of Pluto closer to the sun with a hydrostatic shape and in orbit around Sol directly that hasn't been discovered. Do also let me know about the moons of Saturn's moons, that would be interesting.  But feel free to find even yet another reason to contradict me again. μηδείς (talk) 00:58, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You cannot prove the non-existence of something. As Alex said you have no way of knowing what is or is not undiscovered in the solar system.  This is not an astronomy journal and unless we are going to post the naming of all minor asteroids and dwarf planets, we shouldn't post this.  Pluto is not technically a planet, according to those in the know. 331dot (talk) 01:07, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I am sorry, but that there might be a planet hiding behind the sun, or an evil demon deceiving us all is an absurdly silly argument. The space has been searched.  In precisely this case one can indeed make a negative statement.  There is unequivocally no dwarf planet with a moon closer than Pluto, and no school child who hasn't heard of Pluto.  (FYI< it is universal negatives that generally cannot be proven.)  This is a textbook encyclopedic nomination. μηδείς (talk) 02:34, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * (1) This isn't Pluto we're naming, it's two of its moons, discovered less than two years ago. (2) But I wouldn't regard the naming of, eg, Sedna or Quaoar as post-worthy in itself. (3) This 'closer than Pluto' thing is your own invention. It's quite apparent that objects in this general class (moons of dwarf planets) may be quite numerous, and that Pluto itself may yet have undiscovered satellites. AlexTiefling (talk) 07:01, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support Because Pluto as a (dwarf) planet is culturally influential: Pluto the cartoon dog, Plutonium. Rursus dixit. ( m bork3 !) 10:04, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, while the naming of asteroids isn't notable, the naming of moons is and Pluton is still a notable component of the Solar System. Brandmeistertalk  11:09, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The IAU might disagree, since they now consider it equivalent to Ceres and Eris, along with the many other similar bodies in the solar system. 331dot (talk) 12:15, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Still Pluto is the Solar System's largest dwarf planet by diameter (2,306 km vs 950 km of Ceres), which is one of the reasons why it gets more attention than Ceres or Eris. The naming of new celestial bodies within the Solar System is almost always notable in my opinion, although we didn't post the previous moons. It's not the same as other objects anywhere else in space that are discovered almost daily. Brandmeistertalk  12:53, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Pluto is likely not the largest dwarf planet by diameter. Eris is reported to have a radius of 1163 ± 6 km. Compare to Pluto's 1153 ± 10 km. Also, Eris is certainly the largest known dwarf planet by mass. 50.198.153.78 (talk) 17:26, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support Pluto is a major part of our solar system, and has historically been one of its planets. It is interesting and one of them is even a Good Article! -- -- Patar knight - chat/contributions 17:35, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Here is list of naming announcements for moons of Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune since Wikipedia began:
 * 2002 naming of moons of Jupiter http://www.cbat.eps.harvard.edu/iauc/07900/07998.html
 * 2003 naming of moons of Jupiter, Saturn and Uranus http://www.cbat.eps.harvard.edu/iauc/08100/08177.html
 * 2005 naming of moons of Uranus http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:iAbkiaqSAlMJ:www.cbat.eps.harvard.edu/iauc/08600/08648.ps
 * 2006 naming of moon of Saturn http://www.cbat.eps.harvard.edu/iauc/08700/08730.html
 * 2007 naming of moons of Neptune http://www.cbat.eps.harvard.edu/iauc/08800/08802.html
 * 2007 naming of moons of Jupiter and Saturn http://www.cbat.eps.harvard.edu/iauc/08800/08826.html
 * 2007 naming of moons of Saturn http://www.cbat.eps.harvard.edu/iauc/08800/08873.html
 * 2009 naming of moon of Jupiter (Subscription required) http://www.cbat.eps.harvard.edu/iauc/09000/09094.html
 * 2011 change the spelling of a moon of Saturn http://www.cbat.eps.harvard.edu/iauc/09100/09191.html
 * Many more moons of Jupiter and Saturn yet to be named. Nestrs (talk) 18:48, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Question was the discovery of P4 and P5 posted on ITN? Also, I note that's nine namings over a period of 13 years, seems rare enough to be notable. μηδείς (talk) 19:10, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Such namings are not science, are not the result of hypothesis testing, and mean nothing. Their discoveries were slightly more interesting. 71.178.184.73 (talk) 23:09, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Very Simple if they weren't posted then they should be now. μηδείς (talk) 02:16, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment The discovery of P2 and P3 in 2005 was posted without much discussion but I can't find any ITN discussion of their naming in 2006. The discovery of P5 was posted but P4 wasn't. Nestrs (talk) 19:00, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:23, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Post-Post comment There are reasons why naming of Kerberos and Styx is more notable than new moons of the gas giants: 1) slight surprise at dwarf planet having all these moons, 2) Pluto's moons were put to a public vote, 3) the IAU issued a press release and 4) press coverage. Whereas if yet another new small asteroid-like moon of Jupiter or Saturn is discovered it doesn't make as much difference because the gas giants already have dozens and dozens of such moons and are expected to have zillions more smaller and smaller until you get down to the size of rocks making up the planet's rings. Nestrs (talk) 04:59, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

RD: Princess Fawzia Fuad of Egypt

 * oppose no individual noteworth and even then over the last tumultuous 30 years in the region shes been nowhere.Lihaas (talk) 18:22, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Weak oppose. Other than being married to the Shah, I'm not seeing what is notable about her (charitable work, policy influence, etc.) 331dot (talk) 20:26, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, she was a member of the Egyptian royal family and was a very well-known figure in the past decades. I think her death reminds people the history of both Egypt and Iran both of which are very significant or highly cited countries in recent days.Egeymi (talk) 22:18, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Sultan's Eldest daughter, of nation with larger population than Britain, and Queen Consort of Iran, again, with a greater populace than Britain. μηδείς (talk) 22:27, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose I don't see how she meets any of the death criteria. No evidence that she is widely regarded as a very important figure in her field (whatever that is - royalty?) or that she had a major impact on her country or region. I'm not sure of the relevance of the comparison to Britain - I wouldn't support a British royal unless it could be demonstrated that they met one of the death criteria (which I doubt many of them would). Neljack (talk) 00:52, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose The shah has been out for over 30 years and no one who speaks English knowns who she was. This is the English language wikipedia. If we were nominating for the coptic, Egyptian Arabic,Farsi or azeri language wiki I would put support. I do not understand how she was at all significant to the English speaking world. Iran and Egypt are larger then England but their English speaking population combined is less then the entire population of Montenegro. Nottruelosa (talk) 01:13, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * This is not Anglophonopedia. We do not rely on the relevance of our subjects to English-speakers. AlexTiefling (talk) 06:58, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose if it was Farah Pahlavi who died, I would wholeheartedly support (after article cleanup as its a sad mess), but I don't see the impact here with Fuad Secret account 02:46, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak support - Secret makes a good point, but on balance, a queen consort is a pretty prominent person, even 30 years on. For me, the only relevance of all these reference to the British (NB not solely English) monarchy is to remind me how anglocentric a lot of coverage of royalty is. AlexTiefling (talk) 06:58, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If Fidel Castro dies we need to place it, but overall thousands of people exist in the world who are more notable then her. And we would not put them on the front page when they die and have not Nottruelosa (talk) 16:18, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * This nomination is not intended to demand posting a blurb on the main page, but only to put her name in the bottom of the box. Fidel Castro is definitely far more significant than she was, but he would surely qualify for a full blurb.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 22:12, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support for RD. -- Jayron  32  02:18, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

[Closed] China elder law

 * Oppose without an article to evaluate, though I would probably be inclined to still oppose even with an article, as this is just the implementation of a Chinese law to combat elder abuse/neglect (according to the source given), something which is already against the law in other places. 331dot (talk) 09:50, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * This is a very unusual news item. While that should not mean an automatic oppose, it does set the bar much higher for the article quality, in order to make the case for posting it. Since there is no article at this time, I will oppose. Thue (talk) 10:15, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - A small point of family law. No wider significance. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:32, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose per the others. This could be used as part of a section about China in the Elderly care article, but it isn't global news. Thryduulf (talk) 12:06, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Cirque du Soleil death

 * Oppose - While the death is unusual and being well covered, this is a news blip; the performer was otherwise non-notable and if this happened outside of a show's performance, wouldn't qualify for RD ticker much less a blurb. --M ASEM  (t) 02:02, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support A pretty decent article, and clearly in news sources. I can't come up with any reason based on the criteria to oppose this.  -- Jayron  32  02:10, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Technically this article fails WP:BIO1E and WP:BLP1E (yes, understanding that the L part no longer is met). The death should not be a separate article and should be a by-line in the Cirque or Ka articles. This is exactly the article type that needs to be moved to Wikinews and fails to be an ITN. --M ASEM (t) 02:21, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not a biography; it's an article about a notable accident (hence the article title). The level of detail would not be appropriate for the Ka or Cirque articles (it is covered briefly in both), which makes a standalone article the best choice.  (Incidentally, Wikinews is primarily for original reporting.) --ThaddeusB (talk) 02:31, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter if its strictly a biography or not - the article is focused on a person notability for one event, their accidental death. The article is far too details for an encyclopedic treatment, which is why it can fit into either other article to the level of detail that is appropriate. And Wikinews takes any news stories though does accept original reporting as well. This is not the type of article we want to support on Wikipedia under WP:NOTNEWS. --M ASEM  (t) 02:55, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * This is in no way a routine news story (the purpose of NOTNEWS is to "disallow" routine stories) and its not a biography, so biography guidelines are not relevant. Big stories - like this one - can and often should have standalone articles.  As to what kind of article "we" want, we'll have to agree to disagree. --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:14, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No, this does fall under all those, as well as WP:NEVENT. Stories that have a burst of news coverage - as this has - are routine news events and in this case have very likely long-term impact on the world at large. Hence not appropriate for WP coverage. --M ASEM  (t) 03:33, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Tragic yes, but I don't think this rises to the level of ITN. This event is unlikely to have a major impact. -- King of &hearts;   &diams;   &clubs;  &spades; 02:14, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose she may have been a high-flying bird, but she was not the world's fastest. She was seen twice a night, not once in 22 years.  And she died risking the death she was paid for, not being killed by green technology. μηδείς (talk) 03:25, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Medeis, it's in exceedingly poor taste to trivialise a woman's life and death in order to complain about your own unrelated nomination not making the grade. And is that a point I see you making about green technology? ITN is not a suitable venue for you to pursue your own political ends. AlexTiefling (talk) 09:49, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Political ends? Seriously? The show is notable, she was not.  The possibility of her death was an expected part of the attraction. Unfortunate, but unless a real crime occurred certainly not for ITN or oven an article. μηδείς (talk) 19:14, 2 July 2013 (UTC)]
 * Forget your signature, Medeis? As it happens, I agree with your vote on this - although I disagree that 'the possibility of her death was an expected part of the attraction' - circus acts expend a great deal on making this appear to be the case, while preventing it in actuality to the greatest extent feasible. What I was objecting to was your crass string of false parallels to your ridiculous bird-and-wind-turbine story. AlexTiefling (talk) 17:53, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The point was, the ridiculous bird story was still top of the news yesterday in the US, while they make songs about danger posed to "the daring young man on the flying trapeze". μηδείς (talk) 19:16, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose as a newsworthy but not notable event. I even have my doubts as to whether this article ought not to be deleted. --  Ohc  ¡digame!¿que pasa? 04:41, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak support. I don't think her death will have a big impact, but it did receive coverage worldwide. How about nominating it for RD? The article is well sourced and written. ComputerJA ( ☎  •  ✎  ) 04:52, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No, this doesn't merit RD. She was not notable on her own in any capacity. μηδείς (talk) 19:16, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose. Tragic, but part of the nature of the business the person was in. 331dot (talk) 09:27, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - A single tragic event without wider context. AlexTiefling (talk) 09:49, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * support a [in]famous first for the world's most renowned of its kind. Per AlexTiefling: the same goes for the firefighters.vLihaas (talk) 13:02, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think you mean 'per'. And 19 firefighters died - and we post multiple deaths much more than single ones - in the context, as I noted at the time, of a major heatwave throughout the Southwest. AlexTiefling (talk) 13:09, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes on the first. but on the 2nd: "single tragic event without wider context". still a single event without wider context..Lihaas (talk) 16:00, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Did I mumble, or something? In what way is the widely-reported heatwave in the southwestern United States not the wider context for the deaths of 19 firefighters in a brushfire? AlexTiefling (talk) 17:53, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose - Very sad event, and of high human interest, but not rising to the level of ITN. Jehochman Talk 13:23, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] Egypt protests

 * support biggest protests, 4 resignations. Though change the name as its not only Tahrir Square. Also pro-govt support and burning of MB office and protests at prez palace. Perhaps Cairo protests (though I have heard of some violence in Upper Egypt)?Lihaas (talk) 16:30, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, it should be 2013 Egyptian protests. Blurb could mention the burning of Muslim Brotherhod HQ. Abductive  (reasoning) 17:37, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It has been renamed. Therefore, I lodge my support. QatarStarsLeague (talk) 01:04, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support The ultimatum is exceptional, even for tumultuous Egypt. Thue (talk) 16:45, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - Probably the biggest worldwide news story today and yesterday. AlexTiefling (talk) 16:53, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, big news. Where was the article? Abductive  (reasoning) 17:36, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - this has been big news, widely reported. --LukeSurlt c 19:31, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support but the blurb should reference the army's ultimatum. That's a clear indicator of the seriousness of the situation. Neljack (talk) 21:36, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment. It seems like the story may shortly be either that a deal has been reached or that there has been a military coup. Perhaps we should wait, rather than trail the story. Formerip (talk) 22:58, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * We can always update the story later. The story is notable as it is now, so why not post now? Thue (talk) 23:21, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - I'm prepared to post but the blurb (across Egypt) doesn't match the article name (just Tahrir Square). If the article/blurb is to be about all demonstrations (probably a good idea), it should have a general title I'd think. --ThaddeusB (talk) 23:22, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - This is big news everywhere across Egypt there are protests to oust the current president. I updated and reformatted the article a bit but it still needs some work. There are many news outlets reporting the news and 4 ministers resigned already with more to follow. The army will intervene within 48 hours if the protesters demands aren't met. Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 01:22, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posted - of course article work can and should continue, but no reason not to post now. The blurb can be updated if/when something else of note happens. --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:33, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I see no one noticed the typo in the nominated blurb... --  tariq abjotu  01:49, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Not to mention teh fact we don't normally wikilink country names. Doh!  Not my best moment there. --ThaddeusB (talk) 02:00, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If we don't wikilink countries, shouldn't the wikilink 'Croatia' also be removed from its pertinent blurb? —Avenue X at Cicero (t · c) sends his regards @ 21:00, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not that we don't link countries at all; it's that we only link countries when they're highly relevant to the story. For example, we wouldn't link to United States in the firefighter story because the country is just given to give context about where the fire was located (the state does that too, but we generally link states and/or cities so people can click to them if they're unfamiliar with them). If we had a story about, say, a British actor dying, we wouldn't link to United Kingdom because it's, again, just for context. However, Croatia is most certainly central to the story about it entering the EU (that's about as central as you could get), and I would argue Egypt is central to the story here as well, rather than incidental; people wanting to learn more about these stories would likely be interested in reading the country articles. --  tariq abjotu  22:16, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Per your comment shouldn't it be 2013 Egypt protests?
 * Having just added to the page there was no wording on the protests ta all. How was it posted? Its still a little short but I tried to add something to the actual protests an dnot just reactions and backgroundLihaas (talk) 06:26, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Hun? The article is solely about the protests, so I have no idea what you mean by "there was no wording on the protests". --ThaddeusB (talk) 20:22, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Prior to its current incarnation there was only background and response information. Nothing on the protests itself. See prior to my first edit.Lihaas (talk) 12:05, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

[Posted] MINUSMA

 * Support Obvious historical importance. Thue (talk) 11:49, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The presidential election later this month would seem a more natural time discuss Mali.  Over the long-term the UN has averaged about one new peacekeeping mission a year, and while such efforts are generally encyclopedic, I tend to doubt that most of them rise to the level of major news.  Looking at the typical sources, the current intervention in Mali doesn't seem to have attracted much attention.  Dragons flight (talk) 12:05, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * IMO ITN should focus on encyclopedic developments. If we use the criteria "rise to the level of major news" as in "covered on the front page of newspapers", we should cover Justin Beiber more... Thue (talk) 15:26, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Currently, I see 31 distinct stories on the main page of Google News (none of which are Mali or Justin Beiber, though to be fair Lady Gaga does get a nod). Of those, I would say about 15 or 20 involve events that could naturally be incorporated into encyclopedia articles.  Everything on ITN is related to encyclopedia developments, but not all encyclopedic developments necessarily belong on ITN.  In this case, UN peacekeepers replaced a French / West African peacekeeping force.  By itself, in my opinion, that just isn't much of a story.  On the other hand, the upcoming elections later this month will probably make a much better story.  Dragons flight (talk) 22:03, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Just scanning Google News, and the MINUSMA seems way more historic than most of what featured there. We should of course also post the upcoming elections - Mali has been through a war, of course we can post 2 stories about it! Thue (talk) 08:20, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, this is encyclopedic material. The article is developing. --Tone 16:18, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support-Per nominator. QatarStarsLeague (talk) 01:02, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * 2 days of consensus and article updated.Lihaas (talk) 16:01, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support I think this is a significant development in that part of the world, an UN group to help keep the peace rather than an international coalition to topple dictators or other such things that have happened over recent years. We should judge the upcoming elections separately when/if they happen.  MINUSMA looks to be a fairly long-term support mission.  I do have some minor concerns about the lack of content in the article currently.  CaptRik (talk) 20:45, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Posting. The update is decent and there is a rough consensus to post. Omitting the election link, that will be a separate story later. --Tone 09:52, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Confed cup

 * Oppose. This is a prelude to the World Cup and as such is not a top-level tournament. 331dot (talk) 00:44, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - The blurb should probably be shortened to just "Brazil beats Spain to win the 2013 Confederations cup." Andise1 (talk) 01:27, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I assume it is being proposed precisely because Spain's 29-game win streak ended. At least I assume that is what the blurb is supposed to mean - the article doesn't mention it and no source was provided, so I can't be sure what was meant by "breaking Spain's record 29 games without a loss". --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:38, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Heh. Four years ago when it was the evil USA vs Spain, this was gleefully opposed. Let's see this year... – H T  D  03:35, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Very important international cup watch my millions of people across the globe. Definitely newsworthy. ComputerJA ( ☎  •  ✎  ) 04:09, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Is the gaming being discussed here what in America would be called Soccer? μηδείς (talk) 04:26, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It is the version of football that is actually played with the feet, not with the hands. Nergaal (talk) 05:34, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * But the head is legal for propelling the ball too. Should be called hootball. HiLo48 (talk) 23:30, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support with altblurb as proposed; this is definitely being reported in conjunction with the protests, which are themselves football-related, as the cost of the World Cup is one of the main grievances. AlexTiefling (talk) 07:02, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Meh TO me this is a pretty over-blown tournament on the importance scale and in reality doesn't have much of an effect on the future world cup. In 2 years international teams can go through a lot of changes, just take a look at the current Brasil team. My vote is neutral. --Somchai Sun (talk) 14:33, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose as per 331dot. This is widely acknowledged to be a glorified "shakedown" tournament for the World Cup hosts. --LukeSurlt c 19:26, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support with the blurb "In Football, Brazil defeats Spain in the 2013 Confederations Cup". Highly notable tournament that's also received additional news attention due to the protests. --  Anc516  (Champs!) (Talk ▪ Contribs) 05:09, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That should be "In Association football, Brazil defeats Spain in...". That's the agreed name for the sport in this encyclopaedia that has to discuss at least six professional sports that each call themselves football. HiLo48 (talk) 05:38, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support though I believe the blurb could also say that Brazil won it for the third consecutive time. Three-peat sounds good, although haven't ever heard it being associated with Association Football. —Avenue X at Cicero (t · c) sends his regards @ 11:41, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Not updated - the Confederations Cup article has no text about the game itself and very little on the protests. --ThaddeusB (talk) 16:23, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Not prose other than the lead (though weve posted less) but there is plenty for the alt blurb section with several paras.Lihaas (talk) 18:23, 2 July 2013 (UTC)