Wikipedia:Indonesia-related topics notice board/Archive 1

Portal changes
Rats, Merbabu beat me to the first post :-) Let me know if you have any comments about the portal changes I made this morning. I tried to consolidate and simplify structure and content of the site. I will come back later and list the changes I made. There are some further changes I have in mind, and some others that really should be discussed first. For this page, I think it would be useful to add a few panels at the top of the page which summarize the state of WikiProject Indonesia, as per Australian_Wikipedians%27_notice_board; specifically the "WikiProjects" and "To-Do" panels. The other major change which I'd like to discuss is the consolidation of the talk pages contained on Template:WPIndonesia Navigation. My opinion is that each of the subsections of the wikiproject should not have their own talk pages - it becomes to cumbersome to monitor the dozen or so Talk pages that exist. Instead we should either have a single Talk page for the whole project (+ this noticeboard), or alternatively just this noticeboard without any Talk pages. Each of the redundant talk pages would be redirected to the alternate central discussion location. What do others think? (Caniago 05:12, 6 January 2007 (UTC))
 * It all looks good. As a general comment, I support any modifications that simplify things but doesn't lose functionality that we ACTUALLY USE. Merbabu 06:16, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Response to My opinion is that each of the subsections of the wikiproject should not have their own talk pages - it becomes to cumbersome to monitor the dozen or so Talk pages that exist. Instead we should either have a single Talk page for the whole project (+ this noticeboard), or alternatively just this noticeboard without any Talk pages. Each of the redundant talk pages would be redirected to the alternate central discussion location.    Michaels suggestion is excellent - as it does take time to go through the talk pages if there are separate threads at the same time -   Support a one stop talk page for the whole project. 06:59, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


 * We'll I've gone halfway and redirected all the talk pages of the Project subpages to the root Project talk page. This means we currently have 3 discussion pages - 1 for the Portal, 1 for the Project, and the Project Noticeboard. I'll leave any additional consolidation until the dust has settled further (Caniago 09:09, 6 January 2007 (UTC))

Assessment Grid
I think the assessment grid is great. Gives a nice overall picture. Would be nice also to somehow archive it, so we can see the transformations. What would be even better, rather than having to choose a list of articles by either quality or importance, it would be nice to see a list of articles listed by BOTH quality and importance. For example, a list of poor quality but high importance articles would be prime candidates for priority work and collaborations, etc. Merbabu 04:34, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The quality/importance comparison is kind of provided here: Version_1.0_Editorial_Team/Indonesia_articles_by_quality/1. (Caniago 09:39, 7 January 2007 (UTC))

Woo-hoo
Indonesia is GA!!! Well done everyone. (the deciding factor must have been the new pic of nutmeg ;). ) Merbabu 13:15, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Congrats! My bow to Merbabu for his great work in the article. One step further to the ultimate goal of WP:INA project, the FA-level of Indonesia article. BTW, Michael would argue that the deciding factor is the Minangkabau woman picture. ;P &mdash; Indon ( reply ) &mdash; 13:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Michael would not be able to take credit for that. That would belong to Joyce. Merbabu :) 13:32, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * but he has made her life "colorful" ;-) &mdash; Indon ( reply ) &mdash; 13:37, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * yes, colorful is the right word given it was a black and white picture. :-) I (and Joyce) was suprised (pleasantly) when Merbabu put it there. The trouble is that I'm now going to jealously guard the picture ;-) Its a pity that there isn't a license on WP which prevents further photoshopping of it, since I noticed on the Malaysia wikipedia some "evil" person has created a hybrid person by replacing the face in the picture with that of someone else. Congratulation to everyone on GA status. We beat Malaysia, Thailand and the Philippines to GA; lets see if we can beat them and Singapore to FA! (Caniago 16:59, 11 January 2007 (UTC))
 * Oh, good that I didn't choose her picture for Indonesia-bio-stub icon (she has a guard). :P &mdash; Indon ( reply ) &mdash; 17:07, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * hmm - did I put her picture there? I forgot that. Merbabu 20:16, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I love the bio-stub icon, and Merbabu's picture. He's a certainly an iconic Indonesian character, though it look like a hard life. (Caniago 17:16, 11 January 2007 (UTC))

I just re-read it. I forgot how good the Structure and affiliations sub-section is. nice work indon. Merbabu 15:05, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * A small percentage only. &mdash; Indon ( reply ) &mdash; 17:07, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Translation requests
We should be very careful about translation requests. Way too many Indonesia-related articles have been translated from WP Indonesia that have no referencing. For example, I have removed a translation request tag on the Rasuna Said page. The id article is unreferenced, thus the en version should NOT be expanded by translating unreferenced information, rather it should be written from reliable sources. In my opinion, any unreferenced information should NOT be in the articles. In practice however, i don't normally remove existing information, but usually remove newly added info that is unreferenced - if not add tags and contact the editor.

We should also perhaps consider the status of the translation request box on the portal. Merbabu 14:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Strongly support - of the WPI project articles that Ihave reviewed there are serious WP:RS issues SatuSuro 14:16, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, once again, in theory, anything unreferenced should not be here. Merbabu 14:19, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Which is exactly why I have asked that the stubs that I was doing Project tags on talk pages - not be included with Portal tags on main pages - mainly because a significant amount do not have yet any ref or link to save them in the event of any challenge to their existence...SatuSuro 14:24, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Project to-do list
I've revamped our old to-do list and moved it to here WikiProject_Indonesia/to_do. Please fillin with any articles and tasks which need the attention of the project so they remain on our radar. (Caniago 18:28, 20 January 2007 (UTC))

could use expert work in this AFD
Anyone care to weigh in on Articles for deletion/Jawa Pesisir Lor? It would be great if someone knowledgable could provide citations. â coe l acan t a lk  â 07:47, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

odd article

 * Beauty and Warrior (anime) - anyone? is it worth qualifying or locating more info -or ? SatuSuro 01:23, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Subud - also needs a once over - they seem to be an argumentive lot that lot..SatuSuro 01:35, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

picture request

 * Australia-Indonesia Prisoner Exchange Agreement Please help by finding and adding a picture of the Indonesian Justice Minister to replace the box with President SBY. Thanks, DavidYork71 11:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Indonesia
So we received GA for this article some weeks (months?) ago now. What do people think need to be done to achieve FA status? Please provide your thoughts. Merbabu 04:32, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Short-term plan: request external copyeditor in WP:LoCE? A new WikiProject consists of what so-called self-proclaimed the prose experts. After that we can polish again the article for its references and pictures. My 2 cents. &mdash; Indon ( reply ) &mdash; 09:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * OK - good idea, i will make a list of the :to-do's"Merbabu 09:25, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm currently going through and checking the quality of the references. I'm up to the history section. Looks pretty good so far. Merbabu 11:18, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

New article
I've created The coming of Islam to Indonesia (1200 to 1600). Please check it out. There is still a lot of work to do on it, but it's a good start. I can also thus trim the corresponding section of Islam in Indonesia. --Merbabu 11:06, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Category tagging
Please note that categories will be tagged with a non-article tag soon so that we can review what categories exist within the Indonesia Project - they will not affect anything else - any questions please check with me - please do not alter them - thanks SatuSuro 22:49, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Terrorism
It appears that a project-wide discussion is required on the subject of how this subject is developed within the project. It has been developed over time with articles that contribute towards an understanding - by looking at the components of the larger issues. However non project editors have broached the issue - and as a project we need to find a good wikipedian consensus - or even airing of ideas as to how to approach the subject - as we have been doing by developing articles that we can deal with - with no 'speculative;' non encyclopediac style or attitude enroaching on our articles. It is a sensistive subject - but we need to deal with it, specially as there are issues creeping into the projects domain from other areas.

Any comment at all would be appreciated as to how WP Indonesia should go on this - developing the project with good encyclopediac articles and sticking to wikipedia policies. SatuSuro 23:17, 27 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, my only suggestion is to improve those articles with reliable sources from different views, not only from foreign media's. I'm sure this is related to the campaignbox, isn't it? I think most of non milhist voters agree that the templates are POV, so no need to worry. The only thing I don't like is that our specific terrorism articles are merely stub or a little more but they have been bombarded with huge and ugly boxes while the contents are practically still none. &mdash; Indon ( reply ) &mdash; 09:23, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Forget about template contributors, I'm only editing articles for now. &mdash; Indon ( reply ) &mdash; 13:02, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Current sumatran earthquake
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200703/s1864684.htm SatuSuro 09:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
 * This is the best story I've seen so far http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/quakes-kill-70-in-indonesia/2007/03/06/1173156488441.html . Based upon USGS data (http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/eqinthenews/2007/us2007zpah/), it was located 30km below Lake Singkarak. (Caniago 10:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC))
 * Is there a wikipedia art on it yet? Merbabu 10:25, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Not to my knowledge, besides the news items on our portal and the main SE asia news portal. (Caniago 10:28, 6 March 2007 (UTC))
 * March 2007 Sumatra earthquakes (Caniago 11:39, 6 March 2007 (UTC))

Available to Help
I'll be traveling to Indonesia (Jakarta & Bandung) in a week. If anyone has any picture requests I'd be glad to help. Profile ID 15:45, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi ProfileID, good to see your offer. I request pictures of Bandung: Villa Isola (front, back garden & the view to Bandung), better Gedung Sate, Pasupati bridge (the current one has deadlink to the source) and others to fill the article and also Bandung category at Commons. It would be glad if you can upload them in Commons. Thanks. &mdash; Indon ( reply ) &mdash; 16:11, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Take your pick from any of these which don't have photos already :-) Category:Buildings and structures in Jakarta (Caniago 16:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC))

Backlog merge issue
Government Administration in Indonesia It has been suggested that this article or section be merged with Administrative divisions of Indonesia. This has been dormant and undiscussed for some time now - as it is part of the Government template -it is a bit messy to have left so long. I suggest that we go ahead with it. SatuSuro 03:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bengkulu people
Do you think the Bengkulu people do not exist? see Articles for deletion/Bengkulu people Tobias Conradi (Talk) 21:27, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

New articles announcement (architects)
Forgot to announce new articles: Thomas Karsten, Albert Aalbers and Braga Street. Feel free to contribute ! &mdash; Indon ( reply ) &mdash; 19:21, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Indon's back! V nice work. Merbabu 04:56, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Ah that's why you uploaded the picture of Surakarta's Pasar GedhÃ© to commons! Nice work (I mean the article)! Meursault2004 06:35, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you guys. Merbabu has lifted the written quality of the article up. Thanks. And Mersault2004, yes I found the image through Google search. I didn't know before that Pasar Gedhe is Karsten's work. I thought it was Pasar Klewer, I should visit there sometime. I'll translate Thomas Karsten to id later. &mdash; Indon ( reply ) &mdash; 09:02, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately I haven't made a better picture yet. That one was made with a cellular phone. Meursault2004 11:13, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * As long as it's free. :-) &mdash; Indon ( reply ) &mdash; 11:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

New template and category
To aid development of articles on Indonesian companies, I added Jsx (a ticker symbol template) which automatically adds them to Category:Companies listed on the Jakarta Stock Exchange. Rigadoun (talk) 21:02, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Great, that would be very handy for maintenance. Thanks. &mdash; Indon ( reply ) &mdash; 12:58, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Category:Indonesian Chinese people
Hello, i recommend moving Category:Indonesian Chinese people to Category:Chinese Indonesians. borgx ( talk ) 01:26, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Support in either way. &mdash; Indon ( reply ) &mdash; 12:56, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I prefer the use of Chinese Indonesian--w_tanoto 22:17, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Would it be with or without a hyphen? Meursault2004 22:57, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think so, just like Chinese American . wic 2020 talk bicara 01:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

New Article bot
I've attempted to set up a feed by User:AlexNewArtBot to sift through and find new articles related to our WikiProject. I believe once there are ones found they will be added to User:AlexNewArtBot/IndonesiaSearchResult. Once there are items there, we may want to include a link or hyperlink from the mainpage of the project (a number of other WikiProjects do this). The formula for determining relevancy may have to be tweaked, you can look at it yourself at User:AlexNewArtBot/Indonesia (there's an explanation of some on the user's page, but mainly I took ideas from other projects). (I just posted this to the WikiProject talk, but here is probably a better place.) Rigadoun (talk) 22:54, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Cool. I'd like to see the result. I still have the plan to update the Monitoring sub project pages manually. Is there a way to do it automatically? &mdash; Indon ( reply ) &mdash; 07:38, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I was gone for a few days and it seems to be working. It seems to do a pretty good job except that I had listed "Sunda" as a search term forgetting many articles mention "Sunday"...I've fixed that now, and deleted the obviously irrelevant ones (I left in some that are only tangentially related). I added a WP Indonesia tag, categories, stubs, interwiki, etc. (where appropriate) to the new articles and have marked them "examined"...I'll check back every now and then an hopefully we'll get a good sense of new articles. I should add them to the monitoring subproject in the appropriate places, I didn't do that yet. (I think it's probably too subtle to do automatically.) Rigadoun (talk) 01:47, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and added the relevant articles to the monitoring project lists, and deleted the articles listed (if you're curious about the results, look at the history). That seems like a reasonable way to add the new articles into the lists, and if done regularly shouldn't be too much work. (How to get all the older ones there, I'm not sure.) There's just one article left that I'm not sure where to put, Koreans in Indonesia. I couldn't find anywhere for ethnic groups, etc. Rigadoun (talk) 18:01, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for adding it to the list. I will try to do it regularly with the current articles in the project. It's a nice way to monitor specific category, not a whole bunch list of all articles. Re Korens in Indonesia, I'm not sure if it is appropriate for WP:INA. It's more related with Koreans rather than Indonesia, I think. So let's leave it out of the project at the moment. &mdash; Indon ( reply ) &mdash; 11:31, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I thought it should be in both a Korea project and an Indonesian project, since they are a minority population in Indonesia of 20,000 or so. But anyway, where would an ethnic group like Javanese people (to take an indisputably WP:INA-related article) go? Rigadoun (talk) 15:36, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I guess Culture articles is the most appropriate one. &mdash; Indon ( reply ) &mdash; 16:55, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Budi Setiadharma
This is a new article about an Indonesian businessman. An editor put a notability tag on it, and he doesn't seem especially important to me (based on this). Should we prod it, or can somebody add something that makes his importance clearer? Rigadoun (talk) 19:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Indonesia geo-stub split
There has been a split - and nobody associated with that split has yet explained here at the project page. We await a reasonable explanation SatuSuro 03:18, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Page current status
Category:Java geography stubs

This category is maintained by WikiProject: Stub sorting. Please propose new stub categories here before creating fresh categories and templates.

This category is for stub articles relating to Geography of Java. You can help by expanding them.

To add an article to this category, use the following stub templates instead of stub.


 * Banten-geo-stub
 * CJava-geo-stub
 * EJava-geo-stub
 * Yogyakarta-geo-stub
 * WJava-geo-stub

So it would appear that the WikiProject: Stub sorting are proceeding with this particular process- I think it would be imperative that the Indonesia project members provide feedback.SatuSuro 03:22, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

response

 * As posted to SatuSuro's talk page:

Hi - sorry I didn't mention on the noticeboard. I thought that the split would be clear, but I'll try to explain stubsorting's rationale. I created templates for each province by name (and with the letters N, S, E, W, or C for north, south, east, west, and central in front for some) because in the past when we've done regional splits, it's just made us more work in the future. Whether or not they're 65, we've been creating them and merging them with bigger categories so that when they hit 65, we can just change the category in the stub template and avoid having to go back to every article to change the stub itself.

Because of that, I grouped the different provinces into categories by island or region as set forth in the Indonesian provinces template. This was done because the Indonesia-geo-stubs were nearing 1,000 in the main category. What I asked Grutness about was how the last two templates - for West Papua and Papua - might overlap with Papua New Guinea's provincial names (how it might create conflict with future stub templates). Now that I've checked up on that, I plan to create two more templates - WPapua-geo-stub and Papua-geo-stub. Next, I'll create a category for Maluku and Papua geography stubs. Sound okay? Aelfthrytha 03:27, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * What is the rational for such a split? What is the advantage? I'd like to request that the 'splitting' process is stopped until a consensus on which way to go is obtained from project members. i doubt Such consensus will happen in the next 24 hours. Merbabu 03:39, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Proposals/Archive/March_2007#Split_of_.7B.7BIndonesia-geo-stub.7D.7D - is the rationale - simply amongst members of the sub sorting people - and no consultation with the project. I would disagree with their process - I believe that they have some obligation to projects who owrk with the stubs that they re-arrange. But that is not to put criticism at personally at the above editor, or the other two involved -more at the apparent autnomy of their project - I believe they should have something written into their processes where they look actively for projects that they might affect SatuSuro 03:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * That's a matter to take to stub-sorting, and one which I as an individual wouldn't be solely responsible for. Aelfthrytha 04:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Issue with stub sorting process
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Proposals#Project_consultation - I have taken issue with stub sorting with this message. SatuSuro 04:19, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that it may have been better to consult with the project first, but I think Grutness makes a good argument on this page about dividing the stubs uniformly with other countries, and there were a lot of stubs in the countrywide cat (>1000). Rigadoun (talk) 15:16, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Template problem?
With the stub sorting - the separation of the java admin regions - c, and w - the actual visual appearance on the page of the changed stub shows no separation between the c and wSatuSuro
 * Do you mean the picture on the stub template, the category, or the the names of the stub templates? Aelfthrytha 04:41, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry about this - I realise what has happened - my problem of understanding - the main category at the bottom of the page remains the same but the stub message changes for the regions. It was my misreading - not your problem. Sorry to have bothered. SatuSuro 05:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Rationale Discssion
The reason for this split (and for all stub sorting) is to make it easier for editors to find articles. When Indonesia-geo-stub was small, things could be found easily. When it gets to 1,000 articles, it becomes very difficult for any editor to find somehing related to what they know about or want to write about. By splitting this way, editors can find articles about their area of knowledge much faster and in a logical fashion rather than dealing with a category of 1,000 + unsorted articles. Aelfthrytha 17:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed, this is a pretty standard thing to do with large stub types (geographical or otherwise). And Indonesia is a pretty large country:  I'd guess that those with detailed knowledge of some of the less well-known places in the far west wouldn't necessarily be as knowledgeable about the eastern islands, and vice versa.  Is there objection to the idea of splitting in principle, to the detail of the proposed split, or simply some consternation about the lack of prior consultation?  Alai 17:49, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * See, it wasn't too hard to explain. And requesting explantion has nothing to do with opposition. It's a big change, and it can't be assumed that everyone automatically understands, or gives automatic trust. The fact that SatuSuro (our main 'categorist' who has dones so much work on this issue), now feels more comfortable also makes me feel more comfortable. Merbabu 01:49, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * So thanks for going to the trouble to explain here - I do think that at times some of those conversations at Stub Sorting should be somehow given broader notice to the general wikipedia community (which is again not a criticism of the above posters - but of some of the processes that exist within wikipedia - ((no doubt all paying obesiance to the late douglas adams creation of the filing cabinet locked in the lift well marked with a signdont feed the leopard)).
 * (1) Some details of the split - as to whether some regions/geographical constructs actually fit with administrative units currently found in Indonesia- would have been very useful to have be known about before it happened. However we can live with it as is I am sure.
 * (2) Geographical knowledge on the part of editors in this project is fairly up on the average wikipedia user - and the fact that we have to cope with some awe inspiring ignorance from non project editors and users who are clearly geographically challenged - so we in most parts can cope with either end of the archipelago.
 * (3) The real issue for a category/article trawler is the fit - a long as the split recognises and replicates local administrative or geographical divisions fine - when in doubt consult/talk.We have this noticeboard. Thanks again. SatuSuro 02:05, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Are things okay to resume sorting, then? I'm waiting for your consensus. Aelfthrytha 02:41, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Please do- and if you could either summarise/or notify the stuff at some point it would be much appreciated - here if possible. Thanks for your hard work! SatuSuro 03:08, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, thanks guys. See you 'round no doubt. :) Merbabu 03:11, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Could you clarify what you mean by "stuff" that you'd like summarized / notification given about? Aelfthrytha 03:15, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Apologies once again - anything relevant to the Indonesia project stub sorting that is not obvious to a usual editor (as opposed to trawlers like self) - either the final breakdown or list of the stub breakup SatuSuro 04:04, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Indonesia is now FA
According to this Indonesia is now an FA. I hope this is not a premature announcement on my behalf. Wonderful news if it is now FA though. Merbabu 03:57, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Congratulations to all of you who worked hard on it. Rigadoun (talk) 16:35, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

New article
Hello. I started a stub about Citarum River, important stream in West Java. Please feel free to expand and improve. - Darwinek 19:32, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I linked the article on the Indonesian Wikipedia. It's also a stub but it discusses the river's use in hydroelectricity and something of its history. Rigadoun (talk) 20:56, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Krakatoa?
There is a user who has already been there before who seems to want attention. SatuSuro 08:53, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Wahey Archipelago
This article is up for nomination as having no references and possibly being a hoax. DOes anyone know anything about it - no-one wants hoaxes, but no-one wants to lose a whole archipelago either. If you can verify with reliable sources, please add to the article. Merbabu 22:43, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The prod expired. Rigadoun (talk) 17:58, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Naming conventions
I've put up some suggestions on WikiProject Indonesia/Naming conventions. Please change them if you disagree or comment on them on the talk page. We need to reach a consensus on these issues so it can be settled where articles go. Rigadoun (talk) 17:58, 17 July 2007 (UTC)