Wikipedia:Jimbo Wales discussion at Harvard Law School, April 25, 2005

On Monday, April 25 at 4:30 pm ET (20:30 UTC), Jimbo Wales will be discussing cyberlaw with Jonathan Zittrain of the Berkman Center for Internet & Society at the Harvard Law School. During their discussion, they will field questions from students in the cyberlaw class. In addition, the Wikipedia community is invited to watch the live feed of the discussion here:

http://h2odev.law.harvard.edu/feedback/questions/wikipedia.ram

(Note: discussion will run from 4:30 to 6:30 ET. And the number of streams is limited, so get in early!)

The discussion will respond to the most popular questions proposed during the session by all those accessing the link below:

http://h2odev.law.harvard.edu/feedback/questions/list.php

In addition, feel free to post questions below. We will attempt to relay these questions to Jimbo and Zittrain as possible.

Questions

 * What other areas do you feel would benefit from a "wiki"-like approach?


 * Is there a hierarchy of wikipedia users? Are there contributors who have more power than paid employees?


 * How much "lock-down" is too much? What happens to trigger page moderation - a certain number of edits, a pattern of use, or just certain subject-matter?

IRC Backchannel
Come into #wp-law on irc.freenode.net. Use your favorite IRC client...

Tuesday night
Wales is also giving a public talk Tuesday evening at 8:30PM.

When: 8:30 to 10:00 Where: Pound Hall 101 (center-left side of the map) Pre-talk: Donuts and wiki-art at 8:00

Transcript
Start of #wp-law buffer: Tue Apr 26 18:42 2005

[26|16:34] * Now talking in #wp-law [26|16:34] * kornbluth.freenode.net sets mode: +n [26|16:38] * Xirzon has joined #wp-law [26|16:38] gruess [26|16:38] * sannse has joined #wp-law [26|16:38] [26|16:38] on-screen: [26|16:38] * Angela has joined #wp-law [26|16:38] "wikipedia and commons based peer production [26|16:38] "one-two-one-two" [26|16:38] * MykReeve has joined #wp-law [26|16:39] * nsh has joined #wp-law [26|16:39] * msj changes topic to '"Wikipedia and commons based peer production"' [26|16:39] List of proposed questions is up on the  screen... [26|16:39] * nsh raises the eyebrow of channel-dillution   justification curiosity [26|16:39] alright, so!  welcome... [26|16:39] * mindspillage has joined #wp-law [26|16:39] [zittrain talking] [26|16:39] it seems sensible not to stand b/t us and   food... [26|16:39] and it seems sensible that [there should be]   some benefit to actually having showed up [26|16:39] * mark- has joined #wp-law [26|16:40] so to those of you listening on at home, [26|16:40] you are missing out on sme mean treats... [26|16:40] (mary ellen, do you want to tell us what's   kosher and what's not?) [26|16:40] [mary ellen] [26|16:40] * ABCD has joined #wp-law [26|16:40] for thos of you of ashkenazi background.... [26|16:40] and for those of you of sephardic   background... [26|16:40]  [26|16:40] [moving seats] [26|16:41] I am delighted today to have a penultimate session... [26|16:41] on the wiki-blank phenomenon [26|16:42] and I want to really open this up to  sbmissions and questions from you and from online.. [26|16:42] there are some questions already on the screen here; [26|16:42] you can see them vfor yourself and suggest new ones. [26|16:42] we thought we'd start by havin jimmy do a  presentation on his view of what the wiki phenomenon is [26|16:42] some problems that have come up and how they've been splved so far [26|16:42] but we [have a] willingness to be interrupted; [26|16:42] you should by some semaphore and other signal... [26|16:42] get in. [26|16:42] for the benefit of those on the wecast, step up to the mike to talk... [26|16:43] you should be aware that this is being recodrded adn broadcast out to who knows who. [26|16:43] so that's our opt0-out privacy poilicy for today's session. [26|16:43] so here to tell us about a phenomenon that as  we saw from wired, [26|16:43] si called [26|16:43] "the most audacious experimnet of the  post-boom internet, [26|16:43] * kim_bruning has joined #wp-law [26|16:43] * Conti has joined #wp-law [26|16:43] ?" [26|16:43] jimmy wales. [26|16:43] -- [26|16:43] [jw] [26|16:43] I'm jimmy wales, the pres of the WMF and [26|16:43] founder of wikipedia... [26|16:43] how many of you hvave used/edited it? [26|16:44] (80/50?) [26|16:44] one of the big things a out it is that it's  freely licensed, [26|16:44] so ohte rpeople can redisribute our work, commercially or non [26|16:44] it's been around for just over 4 years... [26|16:44] what is the foundation? it's our non-profit org [26|16:44] the goal is to ditribute a free encyclo to  every single person in their own planguage [26|16:44] we mean every piece of that. [26|16:44] so 'every person o nthe planet' [26|16:44] goes beyond just our goals ion the internet [26|16:44] we want to get our work out to areas wher ethye don't even have access to drinking wate [26|16:44] rso that oes beyond the internet, into print and so forth. [26|16:44] the foundation is resp for wp and all the ssite oroject... [26|16:45] we're funded by donations and varoius grants [26|16:45] we've gotten a gran tofr $40k from the lounsbery found, and other grants. [26|16:45] so why the free license? [26|16:45] the most crucial htings: [26|16:45] the content remains non-rpoprietary [26|16:45] this is on of the things that empowers the volunters. [26|16:45] you're contributing to the common good, can never be lokced up by anybody [26|16:45] people don't congritibute to the make jimbo rich rund, they contribue to the good of the world.. [26|16:45] it decreases the indiv sense of ownership, and increases shared ownership [26|16:46] [jz] [26|16:46] are there insteances wher ethe wp has been thoroughly crawled and replicated elseehere wholesale? [26|16:46] [jw] [26|16:46] absolutely. [26|16:46] we actually make available the full downloads of the databasees; [26|16:46] you can dl it, install mysql, install our software... [26|16:46] there are over 200 sites ofund that are wp  clones of some type [26|16:46] [jz] [26|16:46] and this is the sincerest form of flattery, afayc? [26|16:46] [jw] [26|16:46] yes. most of these sites don't attempt to  frok the community/editing [26|16:46] they're mainly just spammers and don't care about the community [management] [26|16:46] so yeah, it's perfectly fine, and veyr common. [26|16:47] [jz] [26|16:47] do you require attribution? [26|16:47] [jw] [26|16:47] yes. we require tath they link back to us. [26|16:47] and one of the legal q's is, [26|16:47] we use the GFDL [26|16:47] and its predates PW [26|16:47] if you read the gfdl, it's veyr had to wrap your mind around how it's supposed to work on the web, [26|16:47] for sth like wp [26|16:47] when you [write something designed] by 2 authors, it's going to be updated a year from now by another autheor... [26|16:47] it's v. hard to figure out what to do about that. [26|16:47] when I'm talking to ,s ay comnsumer web companies, [26|16:48] this part is sth thye have a very hard time grasping [26|16:48] if we make our content available on the web, why should people come back to us? [26|16:48] well, if you give it away and require people to link back, it increases you rpopulrity termendously, [26|16:48] and spreads [your] brand [26|16:48] that's a nice corproate way of putting it, anywya, [26|16:48] we put our name out ther.e [26|16:48] wp has an NPOV policy [26|16:48] this is a central pillar of the community tat brings people togehte.. [26|16:48] we have people w/ a tremendous diversity of  rel and pol background... [26|16:48] e have an npov policy. [26|16:49] it's not directly bout truht, ojectivity, unbiased... [26|16:49] it's a social concept of organization. [26|16:49] we say: [26|16:49] if there's any kind of controverys, wp itself shouldn't take a stand; [26|16:49] we want a way for people working on it to  write in a way that is maximally satisfying to people out there. [26|16:49] [jz] [26|16:49] hjowwould that play out on a holocaust article, [26|16:49] wrt people denying its existence? [26|16:49] [jw] [26|16:49] we would basically attemt to represent... [26|16:49] we don't say thetrer's noone out there who denies it [26|16:49] but in proportion to how it's treated in  mainstrem history, [26|16:49] we'll have a standrad article' at the top we'll say [26|16:49] this is the starndad presentation; [26|16:50] wlesewhere it iwll not e there are holocasut deniers [26|16:50] and there will be a seperate article aobut the dniers. [26|16:50] writing [a good article] [26|16:50] we aren't necc goin got get a 100% concsensu from everyboyd. [26|16:50] that's impossible; some people are just crazy. [26|16:50] but there's a vast marjority of people who will agree on what the ocntroversy is about. [26|16:50] often there are llot of sides, but they can agree on who said what, [26|16:50] and rpeesent it in such a way that it makes sense. [26|16:50] impo, it turns out that some of the most idealog people are best at this [26|16:50] if you're not afraid you're right, you're not afraid to see a pres ofboth sides.. [26|16:51] it's the people with a stron gopinion who are a little insecure about it, [26|16:51] that have a hard time letting otuher people have their say. [26|16:51] this policy is NOT a magic bullet [26|16:51] but it wworks pretty well to get a large group of people together to get high-qualtiy stuff [26|16:51] there's plenty of lingering questions for it [26|16:51] free software: [26|16:51] . [26|16:51] everything we use on the site is free softeware [26|16:51] our wiki engine is released under gpl [26|16:51] we use off-the-shelf tools... [26|16:51] lamp [26|16:51] we use a couple things not completely popular, like memchached [26|16:51] but all free sw. [26|16:51] [jz] [26|16:52]  memcached [26|16:52] if two people say they want to edit a wp  article [26|16:52] and each make changes, [26|16:52] and one submits, and then the other, [26|16:52] how dpoes that get handled? [26|16:52] [jw] [26|16:52] when you edit, you're not doing anytihgn to  the article at all. [26|16:52] if you submit your changes, they come to us  and we save them [26|16:52] when someone else submits, we can tell they su bmitted from a diff version; we show a diff [26|16:52] and you're given an edit box to reconcile it. [26|16:52] [jz] the second writer is presented with a  form? [26|16:52]  (is this a live transcript or  something? :-)) [26|16:52] [jw] yes.  hopefully that doesn't happen too   often... [26|16:52]  [26|16:52] [jw] [26|16:53]  (cool) [26|16:53] personall,y it bothers me so much, I never   edit when someone else is editing [26|16:53] [charlie nesson] [26|16:53]  [26|16:53] have you had experience with wiki, with   audiences deeply divided into two camps [26|16:53] where wiki is a moderating social force? [26|16:53] [jw] [26|16:53] yes I would say so. [26|16:53] within wpo, we have had any major   contrivoardsial otpic... weh have article sabout [26|16:53] these attract people who are intersted. [26|16:53] it does seem to have a moderating force; [26|16:53] sometimes people come in [26|16:54] they are really gung-ho, on one side, [26|16:54]   [26|16:54] but then they come to learn that you've got  to present things in a way that's noeutrally stated... some   people just leave, 'casue they cant take that [26|16:54] one of the htingsabout our community, a   selfselected bunch: wp'anstend to be extremely friendly   people [26|16:54]   [26|16:54] I came ro realize, when I started meeting   them, that people how areh not frienldly odn't like the wiki   environment, otherwise you get fed up with it. [26|16:54] I think it would be interesting... joi ito   was asking this q about ther ecent conflice, japan and   china, riots in china: [26|16:55] putting together gorups of people to diswcuss   this, using a wiki to repsent a neutral pres of what the   issue is [26|16:55] that mght be reall helpful for bot side3s..   let's just get oteht er and agree we're going to talk about the issue. [26|16:55] that alone might help solve the problems. [26|16:55] [charlie] [26|16:55] what you just said is enormously helpful [26|16:55] tyvm [26|16:55] [jz] [26|16:55] another q on this front: [26|16:55] paid shills [26|16:55] who stay b/c they're getting a paycheck, via a pr firm or anywhere else? [26|16:56]   [26|16:56] the day that walmart discpovers that a high hit from wp is the way to get linked in google... [26|16:56] ;) [26|16:56] Walmart decides: it's important, b/c ofthe  succes fof the site, to have the entry reflect what you'd   call a WPOV [26|16:56] how do you deal with that? [26|16:56] [jw] [26|16:56]   [26|16:56] I assume it has happened to some extent. [26|16:56] what happens is, if you come into wp and post   heavily one-sided things, there's a certin [26|16:56] mutulaly-assured destruction logic to how a   wiki works.. [26|16:57] if you do sth that's really biasee, you'll   just get nuked, or blocked from editing. [26|16:57] it wouldn't surprise me -- [26|16:57] the only things I know of are a few famous   celebrities - authors, etc - who either complained or edited   their own articles [26|16:57] typically they understand tey can't turn it   into their press-pub bio [26|16:57] but it's prefectly valid for them to come in  and present their changes [26|16:57] [jz: it has equal standing with anyone else's  [edits]] [26|16:57] [jw] [26|16:57]   [26|16:57] yes... if the nike corporation see's the   article has ane dti saying [26|16:57] "the nike corp has been accuesed of doing   this" [26|16:57] thye can't erase criticism of themeslves, [26|16:58] but they can say "there's info here eople can   researhc, they coan come to our website and see our side of   the story" [26|16:58] <ABCD> <kim_bruning: don't worry> [26|16:58] that ought to satisfy them a bit [26|16:58] on the one hand, we ought to pay attention to   thing like this, [26|16:58] on the other hand, we can be a distruptive   forcde... [26|16:58] if it [comes out that say MS is editing itsw   own article] [26|16:58] <mark-> kim_bruning: there's always /ignore ;-) [26|16:58] it will come off really poorly for MS [26|16:58] * brettstil has joined #wp-law [26|16:58] I see a lot ofapple users around her. I have an apple; those of use wh are apple users [26|16:58] tend to be sth like fanatical religious types [26|16:59] we might want to edit the article to reflect our biases. [26|16:59] that's a lot tougher to fight against. [26|16:59] If it's just fanatical fans [26|16:59] (not someone at the company) [26|16:59] that's a more difficult social problem. [26|16:59] . [26|16:59] so. [26|16:59] how bigg is WP? huge. [26|16:59] [26|16:59] oh man, this noise... have to stop it [26|16:59] [26|16:59] en, de, ja, fr... [26|16:59] the fr will actually pass the ja before the end of this year [26|16:59] they've got more people working [26|16:59] [oops! --ed] [26|16:59] [26|16:59] [jz] [26|17:00] the french by # of articles, or ? [26|17:00] the fr has more people working... [26|17:00] sv is quite large [26|17:00] very small # of speakre, but active wp [26|17:00] nearly 1.5M article [26|17:00] s* [26|17:00] <kim_bruning> <Why doesn't JWales have the numbers on that! :-) > [26|17:00] among 200 lngs... [26|17:00] but that's not really fair [26|17:00] we've got the interface translated into a lot  of languages, but... [26|17:00] <kim_bruning> [26|17:00] voer 20 versions have at least 10k articles, [26|17:00] over 50 has at least 1k articles. [26|17:00] [jz] [26|17:00] who reads the eo: veresion of wp?? [26|17:00] [jw] [26|17:00]  [26|17:00] actually, it's probably in the top 10 lagns... [26|17:01] thye'very passionate about their ang... qiute   intelligent, have q1uite a lot of articles. [26|17:01] basically, this is a better measure of how   active? they are [26|17:01] if you've got 10k, that's a good community...   1k, a good start... [26|17:01] [audience] [26|17:01] how many arts in a typical World Book? [26|17:01] * phyzome has joined #wp-law [26|17:01] [jw] [26|17:01] en: is about twice the size of Britannica. [26|17:01] how popular: [26|17:01] this is sth that keeps changin [26|17:01] b/c our traffic doubles every few months [26|17:01] we're morre opu;lar than expedia, paypal, excite, geocities, nyt... [26|17:02] now wer'e so far ahead of playboy, it's not even worth mentioning [26|17:02] [jz] [26|17:02] do you have a Clean Point of View? [26|17:02] is wp PG, roughly speaking? [26|17:02] [jw] [26|17:02] uh, no. [26|17:02] we have all kinds of hair-rasiing stuff on wp [26|17:02] the key there is, [26|17:02] for info n varios sexual positions, etc [26|17:02] we present this in a very neutral manner... [26|17:02] [jz] [26|17:02] so it's a Boring Point of View... [26|17:02] [jw] [26|17:02] yes, if people come looking for the dirty bits... [26|17:02] they'll be dispapointed... [26|17:02] w2e tend to come down pretty strongly against hte side f censorship [26|17:02] this is one of the arguments that is never going to end... [26|17:02] [jz] [26|17:02] <ABCD> <def not PG - remember the auto* debates> [26|17:03] so, the article on proornography on wp, which I'm looking at right now.. [26|17:03] <MykReeve> <who can forget?> [26|17:03] it's dry, it's not prurient as we know the word prurient. [26|17:03] [jw] [26|17:03] it's all pretty dul,. [26|17:03] we try to keep it that way; informative, educational [26|17:03] it's the only way to get the articles to  survive those of the more censorious spirit... [26|17:03] . [26|17:03] we've got about 500M pageviews monthly [26|17:03] we ust strrongly passed the NYT very recently [26|17:03] (acc to Alexa) [26|17:03] that's actually af un thing [26|17:03] when reproters as=k me what's our busines smodel [26|17:04] I just show them spomething like this, and say [26|17:04] don't worry about our business model, worry about yours... [26|17:04] * ziedoros has joined #wp-law [26|17:04] . [26|17:04] there's this slashdot thing on the internet... [26|17:04] /. [26|17:04] now we barely even notice when we get slashdotted. [26|17:04] I joke sometimes with the devs that the next time they write something about us, we can wikipedia them instead... [26|17:04] instead, we worry about... the pope dying. [26|17:04] here's the prev dya [26|17:04] when the new pope was anounced, our traffic wnt through the roof. [26|17:04] pope dotting [26|17:04] <ABCD> wp /. :) [26|17:04] fortunately, that was to cached pages, so it  didn't kill us... [26|17:04] but it shows how ew've become a source of   information. [26|17:05] [clarif of the graph] [26|17:05] we'vae had some huge spikes in traffic. [26|17:05] in addition to wp, [26|17:05] we have a lot of siste projects... [26|17:05] most of thes were creatd out of a social   pressure within the comunity [26|17:05] these were aguments about whether we needed   synonys and antonyms in the encyclo [26|17:05] wreally we decided a dict is a rdiff kind of   resource than an encyclo [26|17:05] this is tpically how a lot of these other   proejcts were staretd... [26|17:05] the Commons is w2here we put all common media   files [26|17:05] the simple reason we had that is, [26|17:06] when you have a pic of the Eiffel OTower in   fr: [26|17:06] that's fine [26|17:06] but itreally can go into all wpos' [26|17:06] so we needed a common way for people to get it, [26|17:06] in* [26|17:06] =wikinews is the latest. [26|17:06] we've seen how wp is really good at  respondieng to current events.. [26|17:06] on 9/11 [26|17:06] there was aussden rush to fill in wp with all kinds of bg info [26|17:06] the kind that media doesn't usulaly supply [26|17:06] like "who is the architedct hwo designed the  WTC?" [26|17:06] all that kind of info [26|17:06] wikines is an attempt to see, maybe we can do  news reporting the wiki wya [26|17:06] so [26|17:06] ew've got 50 servers now [26|17:07] this isn't a tech audience, so I'll just go  through this quickly... [26|17:07] <ABCD> really? [26|17:07] (showing sexy server farm diagram) [26|17:07] <ABCD> (about the servers) [26|17:07] [26|17:07] very standard architecture... [26|17:07] squids in france and fl... [26|17:07] soon we'll move to an rchitecture where we  have 5 or 6 datacenters [26|17:07] so some of the squids may move based on that. [26|17:07] <ABCD> <msj - fl = florida? > [26|17:07] this is one of the things about how wp works [26|17:07] the volunteers are there all times of the night, [26|17:08] <mark-> [26|17:08] not a tech audience in the law school classroom [26|17:08] watching the servers monitorsing... [26|17:08] [26|17:08] I was recently at a journ conference, sitting wit th ehad of USAToday.com [26|17:08] he was talking about"really big websites like  ours... 300M pageviews a monht" [26|17:08] they have 180 people on staff to manage the servers [26|17:08] * MykReeve has left #wp-law ("Leaving") [26|17:08] and do all that kind of stuff [26|17:08] * MykReeve has joined #wp-law [26|17:08] we have one part-time hardware guy [26|17:08] and we just hired our lead developers. [26|17:08] r* [26|17:08] [jz] [26|17:08] so it's not that you have fewer people wokring on it, [26|17:08] <kim_bruning> <did anyone hear about the extra webcenters? ;-) I got prenews on that :-P > [26|17:08] you just have fewer FTE's working on it [26|17:09] <mark-> <webcenters?> [26|17:09] there's other things that we just can't do  [however] [26|17:09] b/c it's just not fun [26|17:09] you've got a job that just needs doing... [26|17:09] people who volutntere for the red cross or   something [26|17:09]  you're in tune with the bigger purpose, so   you just do it. [26|17:09] but for instance, whne we talk about stats of   how many pageviews we have... [26|17:09] we don't bother counting so often. [26|17:09] I do it some times by downloading the logs... [26|17:09] b/c I have to do these talks [26|17:09] but this is v different form most companie   hwhere they have to go out and [proselytize[] and they need   to know... [26|17:10] so... we'rae a kind of strange organization   in that way. .it's very chaotic. [26|17:10] it's sort of a wiki organization. [26|17:10] . [26|17:10] mediawiki [26|17:10] one of many engines... [26|17:10] one thing we want to suppor tis developers [26|17:10] if we put our software out there, they can benefit from and contribute to the code... [26|17:10] . [26|17:10] page history [26|17:10] this is sth that our wiki software does beter than most [26|17:10] [diffs] [26|17:10] you can actuall ysee the chnages really quickly. [26|17:10] so... [26|17:11] JZ asked me to tlak a lot about how the comunity is organized. [26|17:11] this is the first slide that really gets into that. [26|17:11] we try not to vote on things very much... [26|17:11] <hah!> [26|17:11] a lot of people asked aobut features in the ostware that support decision-making; there's basically none. [26|17:11] therw's a movie called 'twisted issues' [26|17:11] supposedly there's an underground film from '88 [26|17:11] ]this first person says it fails the google test [26|17:11] [jz] the google test is? [26|17:11] [26|17:11] [jw] "if its' not in google, it probably   doesn't exist..." [26|17:12] there's a lot of controversy about this. [26|17:12] this is a very natural thing to do [however] [26|17:12] so someone says "no, I found it in a video  guide..,." [26|17:12] <*cough* GRider *cough*> [26|17:12] then a lot of Keeps [26|17:12] Keep Keep Keep... [26|17:12] when an admin comes by later to count the votes, [26|17:12] even if there ahad been 35 deletes and these last 5 keeps, [26|17:12] they would pay attention to the keesp, b/c there's new information there. [26|17:12] people often ask, why don't you just automaticlaly collate the ovtes? [26|17:13] well, if we did that, we might save some effort, but... [26|17:13] <kim_bruning> <That's the theory, in reality what happens is utterly random and not related to the discussion anyway :-p > [26|17:13] sj introduced! [26|17:13] <mark-> <shush :)> [26|17:13] sj talking [26|17:13] <MykReeve> <damous wikipedian - respec'> [26|17:13] <MykReeve> <*famous> [26|17:13] * cyberlawguy has joined #wp-law [26|17:13] sj: discussing people on slide that sj  knows [26|17:13] sj: small site at first [26|17:14] then found it again about a year and a   half ago [26|17:14] z: do you remember your first edit? [26|17:14] sj: yes, page on centuries [26|17:14] that caused me to create an account [26|17:14] <kim_bruning> <sj == User: ... ? > [26|17:14] <z pulls up centuries page> [26|17:15]  [26|17:15]  [26|17:15] <z diffs sjs edits, right align> [26|17:15]  [26|17:15] <What happened to msj?> [26|17:15] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sj [26|17:15] sj: i wanted it to be pretty page [26|17:15] z: how much time spend per week? [26|17:16] sj: 10-15 hours [26|17:16] z: class credit? [26|17:16] sj: not yet [26|17:16]  [26|17:16] [jw] [26|17:16] ... [26|17:16] a former britannica editor wrote a scating article about wp [26|17:16] one of the things he wrote: [26|17:17] "by some unspecified quasi-darwinian process  will assure that those writings and editiogs by contributors   of greatset expertise [26|17:17] will survive; articles will evnetually reach   a steady state that correspondes to the highest degree of   accuracy.  Does someone actually believe this?  Evidently   so." [26|17:17] [jw] [26|17:17] the mergent phenom model says, [26|17:17] there are htousands of users whpo don't know one another, [26|17:17] [26|17:17] and somehow thoruhg [trial and error] this all manages to work [26|17:17] and the other view is that there is a  community [26|17:17] and all these people, wp'ans who know each other... [26|17:18] <discussion about wikipedia meetups, and where we've met before...> [26|17:18] z: when did jw first meet sj? [26|17:18] z: level above administrator? [26|17:18] jw: jimbo [26|17:18] [26|17:18] [jw, from before: you can see my bias emerging here, b/c I hav epictures of all my friends up on  the screen] [26|17:19] emergent omdel: need reputation mechanisms, like ebay, slashdot [26|17:19] users are tiny, have no power [26|17:19] community mode: reputation is a natural outgrowh of huma ninteractions [26|17:19] users are powerful, must be respected. [26|17:19] I've always thought of the second goal... how I manage the site depends crucially on which of thse two things is tru. [26|17:19] 80/10 rule [26|17:20] If I base some of my decisions on people who hang out and talk to me in irc all the time, and they don't  really have anything to do with the site... that wouldn't be  good. [26|17:20] 10% of users make 80% of edits... [26|17:20] 5% make 66% of eits. [26|17:20] half of all edits are made by just 2.5% of  all users. [26|17:20] [jz] unevennesses of coverage [26|17:20] b/c of what those 2.5% of users know? [26|17:20] [jw] [26|17:20] if you look at the heavy users, it turns out to be a geek-heavy, tehc-heavy crowd. [26|17:21] it turnss out that one of the uses of wp ois : on the surface thir quals are v different from what they do on wp. [26|17:21] my classic example: [26|17:21] <power law distribution ?> [26|17:21] the beareded math prof, who edits articles on  WWII history [26|17:21] [jz] [26|17:21] what's his name? [26|17:21] [jw] [26|17:21] oh, I don't know. it's a hypothetical example. [26|17:21] Charles Matthews... he's [at least] a bearded math professor. [26|17:21] so look at this [26|17:21] : he's got "william robinson, historian" [26|17:21] [jz] so look, this is just what he's been doing today... [26|17:21] now, if you were his employer... [26|17:22] all his edits today [26|17:22] [jw] [26|17:22] b/c of the way modern society ucntions, he's  been narrowed into a particular field for his professional routine [26|17:22] it doesn't mean he's not qual'ed to do htis work... [26|17:22] but here ther's a "reference clas problem" I  assume that's math, too. [26|17:22] [jz] [26|17:22] we could actually track his waking and sleeping... [26|17:22] [jw] [26|17:22] ye, probably so. [26|17:22] can track his waking [26|17:22] there's probably users like angela who you couldn't track, b/c she's up 24 hours a day [26|17:22] . [26|17:23] edits by anons: [26|17:23] anons make about 18% of all edits [26|17:23] used to be 22%, last year 18%. why that's  declining, I don't konw [26|17:23] anecdotally, many reg users report they do  this by accident, or as a quiet form of Sock Puppeting [26|17:23] (to avoid editing under your own identity) [26|17:23] [jz] why would you do that? [26|17:23] [jw] there's bad and good reasons. [26|17:23] I just got an email from someone who will remain anon, just the other day; [26|17:23] they said, is this okay? I use two accounts. [26|17:23] I/'ve bene editing articles related to pedo [26|17:24] even though I'm not biased myself, I wanted to add some scientific information, [26|17:24] I didn't want my colleagues to associate those edits with me. [26|17:24] <pedo?> [26|17:24] pedophilia [26|17:24] maybe someone's a britney spears fan, [26|17:24] secretly, and doesn't want anyone to know. [26|17:24] bad reasons: voting twice for something, trolling... [26|17:24] a very bad social faux pas. we do have means for detecting tha.t [26|17:24] there have been a few cases for that [26|17:24] where people have two accounts, using one for evil and one for good. [26|17:24] [jjz] [26|17:24] wiki jail [26|17:25] and ther is a form of wiki jail... how does that work? [26|17:25] [jw] [26|17:25] yes... we can block ip numbers... we can block an account from editing. [26|17:25] if you're a member of the community with social standing, this is a [dramatic] form of social censure [26|17:25] I can't imagine yself, if I wer a user who had made some friends, [26|17:25] ... [26|17:25] [jz] [26|17:25] is this like the country club with a list of  people who haven't paid their dues? is there a scarlet list of people... [26|17:25] [jw] [26|17:25] well, there's a block log... [26|17:25] the thing is, it's really hard in wp to get yourself banned. [26|17:26] we want to basically bea s open and welcoming... you can get banned for persistent behavioral issues. [26|17:26] [jz] [26|17:26] and once you're banned, ar eyou bnaned for life? [26|17:26] [jw] [26|17:26] it varies. avery few people have been permanently banne.d [26|17:26] that's actually... it's probably within the ocmmjunity my sense that there ar epmore people who feel we  should be mores trict than we are, [26|17:26] than the other way around. [26|17:26] we tend to put up with people far lioger... [26|17:26] part of the reason is that to proser and surivvve in a wiki context, [26|17:26] you have to be really friendly, forgiving , thourhgtufl... [26|17:27] which measn that we're sort of co-dependendt with our trolls sometimes [26|17:27] b/c we're trying to see the best in them [26|17:27] [jz] [26|17:27] trying to 'tolerate intolerance' [26|17:27] [jw] [26|17:27] [26|17:27] yes. I've heard it said in the community someties... [26|17:27] boy, nobody's editing articles anymore, [26|17:27] all we're doing is editing talk pages... [26|17:27] it turns out the %s by namespace are stable, 2002, 2003, 2004 [26|17:27] good thing to find out. [26|17:27] . [26|17:27] so WP governance, how does that work out? [26|17:28] well, it's a confusing, but workable mix, of  the following: [26|17:28] Consensus [if you start to vote, it becomes easy to dig in your heels once you've got 70% and say to  hell with the minority view] [26|17:29] * ziedoros has left #wp-law [26|17:29] [but in the end, we do vote on some issues; but voting processes are sometimes open-ended [26|17:29] ... there are basically a lot ofconventions within wp, that nobody can say why they are that way... [26|17:29] except that people say, it's always been that way] [26|17:29] 2. Democracy (that was the above voting) [26|17:29] 3. Aristocracy [26|17:29] I love to give this presentation with angela. [26|17:30] everyboyd loves angela, [26|17:30] the reason she can get away with being [heard loudnly] is taht she would never violate any rules [26|17:30] (and is the only person who knows all of them) [26|17:30] [jz] [26|17:30] she's basically the Robert Byrd of Wikipedia? [26|17:30] [jw] [26|17:30] exactly. [26|17:30]  and then there's Monarchy [26|17:30] and that's my role. [26|17:30] in the free software community, there's a  long tradition of the benevolent dictator model... [26|17:30] when you've got a bunch of volunteers working together on a rough consensu model [26|17:31] whenever conssensus fails, adn we can't  agree, we'll just trust what Linus Torvalds says, and go   with that. [26|17:31] we have a certian degree of that, [26|17:31] but I don't like the term Benevolent Dictator [26|17:31] b/c I'm not a dictator... and I'm not benevolent [26|17:31] ... [26|17:31] that usually gets a much better laugh [26|17:31] <tardy laughter :> [26|17:31] ... [26|17:31] ex: [26|17:31] there's a website called stormfront [26|17:31] they posted on their bboard, [26|17:31] oh, wp, it's all run by Jews [26|17:32] we're some white people, we're going to go  vote on some stuff there... [26|17:32] they got a bunch of peope to come vote on VfD [26|17:32] they had somethig like 80 to 18 on a vote [26|17:32] people were wroreid: what happens if someone goes in with a big group and overwhelms the process? [26|17:32] I said, I'm not going to let this become a  neonazi webiste. we won't have it. [26|17:32] [jz] [26|17:32] so the opneness is the means, not the end [26|17:32] [jw] [26|17:32] yes. to some extent, WP is both the encyclopedia and the community, [26|17:33] but it's a community organized around the encyclo. [26|17:33] all of our [precepts] the free licensing, the methods... are for developing the encyclopedia; that's what the community will defend [26|17:33] I stand here ready to defend that core goal against any process going haywire. [26|17:33] this acutlaly enables us to have certain structures wthin the comm with less fear. [26|17:33] when we started to have an arb comm [26|17:33] * ABCD is now known as ABCD_away [26|17:33] (I used to do the banning personall'y it was  very draining emotionally) [26|17:34] we moved to a model of: first appointed, now elected, [26|17:34] the questions was, is the arb comm going to  go haywaire, and start banning people for no reason? [26|17:34] one of the reasons the community was willing to let it go this way, [26|17:34] w2as that I wad I was going to retian the power to overrule what they decided if they were going haywire. [26|17:34] is abcd the harvard abcd user groups? [26|17:34] ooh, good Q [26|17:34] <sorry, that was to breett> [26|17:34] the underlying poin is wikipedians are fvery flexible about our underlying methodology... [26|17:35] Questions? [26|17:35] . [26|17:35] Good. [26|17:35] so: how can such a large comunity scale? [26|17:35] one of the things is the recentchanges patrol [26|17:35] I used to check every change every day [26|17:35] so an example is... people organize themselves into rc patrol [26|17:35] so they can go in and say, I checke all the edits, 10-11, 11-12 [26|17:35] or there are ideas about automating that...  (softare feature) [26|17:35] through policy (mediation arbitration) [26|17:35] and through an atmosphere of love and respect. [26|17:36] it's difficult to talk about love, [26|17:36] and I think that in a room full of vicious law students who are going to go out an dbecome harvard lawyers, [26|17:36] there's not a lot of talk about love... [26|17:36] ... [26|17:36] [jz] [26|17:36] love is often uneasy [26|17:36] [jw] [26|17:36] all these kinds of things are really important about how the community functions. [26|17:36] <MykReeve> <love is often on the exam - I heard it  as> [26|17:36] [jz] [26|17:36] how many people in raw numbers is that? [26|17:36] [jw] [26|17:37] 20k people have made at least 100 edits... if  you take a really hard-core user, [26|17:37] 100 edits doesn't really put you in the elite. [26|17:37] the really core community: there's a gorup of  people who hang out on irc all the time, from many different langs... [26|17:37] [jz] [26|17:37] john, a question? [26|17:37] [john] [26|17:37] <yes, love is often on the exam> [26|17:37] are you still flying under the radar of  traditional brick-and-mortar publishing houses? [26|17:37] [jw] [26|17:37] [john] do you have to deal with [legal threats] [26|17:37] [jw] [26|17:38] we're just like... (service providers) yahoo groups, etc [26|17:38] we fall udner dmca safe-harbor provisions. [26|17:38] it's fairly routien... [26|17:38] we have a really strong policy against copyvios and plagiarism [26|17:38] there's a whole gorup of people who police for copyvios. [26|17:38] typcially, someone will, come c&P a block of  text form a website [26|17:38] if you were already a member in good stnading from the comunity, you woul dnever do this [26|17:38] but if you're not, it would set off bells... [26|17:38] usually we'd find it, delete it, take care of  it. [26|17:38] it's not a major worry for us at the time, [26|17:38] at least not on the website... [26|17:39] [john] [26|17:39] are you worried about information vanishing as people edit, b/c people are changing it? [26|17:39] [jw] [26|17:39] you can link to a specific revision in the history... [26|17:39] usually that's the right way to do it to link to sepcific information. [26|17:39] it dependson what you mean by 'acepted by  academics' [26|17:39] normally if you're turning a paper at  harvard, I asume it's not acceptable to quote a source like EB [26|17:39] [jz] [26|17:39] you want a *betteR* source [26|17:39] [jw] yes. if you're tlking about shakespeare, you shouldn't be... [26|17:40] you should rad the encyclo to get background, but then you should go read real books. [26|17:40] [jz] [26|17:40] as we keep going, maybe you can keep an eye on the... questions page [26|17:40] I also think maybe Zephyr had a question in  the back there. [26|17:40] [zephyr] I can yell... [26|17:40] of your article, say 500k of them [26|17:40] how many have more than one edit? [26|17:41] [jw] that's a good question... [almost all] of them [26|17:41] it would be very rare to find one that has only one edit... [26|17:41] it's very rare that I go to an article and look in the edit istory and can't find anyone at all in the history who I don't know. [26|17:41] a lot of this is part of the friendly culture... if you see a newcomer coming to edit wp [26|17:41] * jz has joined #wp-law [26|17:41] usually someone will go to edit the article, to make them feel like there's someone in the community working with thjem. [26|17:41] [reading] [26|17:42] is ther esik of defamation by either good or  evil users mitigated by the 'truth-finding?' process?" [26|17:42] I guess it depends on what you mean by the   risk of this. [26|17:42] <jz> (Hi - Joining from class) [26|17:42] I've been corresponding with this police   officer... [26|17:42] <hi jz!> [26|17:42] * nsh has quit IRC ("10 minute phone use") [26|17:42] he's saying this firend, he was said he's   gay... it's been deleted form WP a long time ago, but it's   still in the history; can it be deleted from the edit   history? [26|17:42] [jz] [26|17:42] and you don't have an edit history that says   'this history has been edited' ? [26|17:42] [jw] [26|17:42] * mindspillage is now known as mind|wandering [26|17:42] I don't know about that... [26|17:43] we don't have much concert about the articlse   themselves libellin people... [26|17:43] we don't tak e a strong position on aything, [26|17:43] meta history of removed edit would be  in old sql dumps [26|17:43] whenever there is something fcontorversial, we try to attribute it to a published source. [26|17:43] that saves us a lot of grief. [26|17:43] what happens if someone in england is upset aobut something? [26|17:43] their libel laws are a lot more open than ours are... [26|17:43] (there are issues there) [26|17:43] [jz] [26|17:43] in what ways is this concern manifest? [26|17:43] [jw] [26|17:43] me worrying about it... [26|17:43] [jz] [26|17:43] otherwise, full speed ahead? [26|17:43] [jw] [26|17:44] we're not in the biz to defame people. a lot of this is mitigated by our good will. [26|17:44] fi someoen complains about this, we repspond and say, we want to get this right. [26|17:44] also, there's not much benefit to [people] to  go to court over this, if it gets fixed. [26|17:44] we hope that trying to do our best will be a  good defense against a lot of things. [26|17:44] [question] [26|17:44] can you say a littel bit about this q of  academmics participating, [26|17:44] and the kind of elitism v. populism of the approach? [26|17:44] [jw] [26|17:44] there was recently somre iscvussion about whether wp is anti-eleitist. [26|17:44] I think it's not; [26|17:45] I think i'm about as elitist as I can get. [26|17:45] what I'm not is credentialist. [26|17:45] we don't require people to have a phd or   prove where they came from... [26|17:45] but I'm passionat ea=bout the idea that there are really smart people out ther, [26|17:45] and htos ear ethe people we want to [hear] from [26|17:45] whether or not they're credentialled is  another q. [26|17:45] and, then again, here I am, [26|17:45] I'm lecturing at harvard law schol, and I  didn't even get into harvard. [26|17:45] so it doesn't say everything... I was joking that in the future, [26|17:45] every tv quiz show propgram will be run by WP [26|17:46] in editing wp, you end up learning about and editing all kinds of [crazy subjects] [26|17:46] does that ansewr the q? [26|17:46] there is... something about the open editing process... people make an asusmption that b/c it is open to  editing yanyboyd, that we have a bleief that everyone's   opinions are equally valid with everyone else's [26|17:46] that's not really true; the open editing is   =our means; it's a way to get involved, to participate [26|17:46] it doesn't mean that everyone's opinoin is  eqully  valid. [26|17:46] sometiems [one] edits wp and we just [revert it] b/c we say it's stupid. [26|17:46] and that happens pretty often. [26|17:47] now, whethe rhte CDA applies... [26|17:47] we/'re a big example of how openness and fredom of information [26|17:47] and letting people say whatever they want [has good benefits] [26|17:47] [jz] [26|17:47] I assume people writing the question is  talking about holding someone responsible for publihsing what another speaker says... [26|17:48] [jw] ah yes, that would definitely come into play. [26|17:48] [26|17:48] what oether areas do you think would benefit from a wiki-like approach? [26|17:48] well, I think a whole lot of things... [26|17:48] if I asked everyone in ther oom to write about Harvard law school, everyone woul dhave an opinion; [26|17:48] we all agree on what it basically would be  about, and that makes it easy to collaborate... [26|17:48] if I asked you to write a poem about the maning of rain, [26|17:48] that would be a lot harder to agree on or to  collaborate on. [26|17:49] [looks up Harvard Law School and the Styvesant School? ] [26|17:49] [jw] [26|17:49] wow, that's painful to see [26|17:49] I think this is an example of systemic bias... [26|17:49] [jz] [26|17:49] notice how they're talking on the talk page about how all the vandalismis coming from Hunter [26|17:49] [26|17:49] and there's no vandalism of the Hunter page by Stuy kids [26|17:49] [jz] [26|17:49] someone was poited out that Kirkland House is  in WP, and was recently subject to a VfD [26|17:50] because, who cares about Kirkland House? [26|17:50] but, not ethat it's still there... [26|17:50] [jw] [26|17:50] do I meet a lot of wikipedians? [26|17:50] yes, I meet wikipedians all over the world... [26|17:50] when I go to meetups, the [gender division] is about 80/20, [26|17:50] but wehn I look at the administrative/organiza tional positions, the gender divide is about 50/50... [26|17:50] <next Q> [26|17:51] has WP ever been blocked in pursuing its mission of providing information to all? [26|17:51] <A> [26|17:51] yes, in two instances were wre briefly blocked by China... [26|17:51] there's a form you can filled out, to be  unblokced [26|17:51] they finally got to the ISP and we were unblokced; [26|17:51] my understanding form talking to Andrew Lih, a journalism professor from Hong Kong university... [26|17:51] is that this top-down system isn't quite what we think it is. [26|17:51] there is a group of administrators all over the country, who can block or unblock... [26|17:52] our stragtegy is that we are neutrla, not ooppposed to the chinese gov't and not for the gov't [26|17:52] wikipedia isn't anti-communst, pro-communist, or antyinhg. [26|17:52] we're just raw, simjple information, not political. [26|17:52] on the other hand, there's osmehting depely political aout saying that people should have basic information for empowering decision0-making [26|17:52] but that's a lot harder to oppose [26|17:52] [than political bias] [26|17:52] there are no major blockages that I know of... but we do wonder. [26|17:52] <next Q> [26|17:52] <MykReeve> <I thought China tended to block around June 4 - mainly blocking every website with Tiananmen Sq  references. That was last year's, at least> [26|17:53] Isaac Asimov and ? have articles orders of  magnitude larger than Virtor Hugo, Gunther Grass, etc... is  this a bad thing? [26|17:53] <A> [26|17:53] yes, this is a bad thing. it's getting better... as we've attracted people and gotten more mature, ew have broadened out in to other ares. [26|17:53] we've talked a lot about what are the barriers to gettoing people involved, barriers to editing? [26|17:53] they have to be not too afraid to click an  edit and change something [26|17:53] the wiki synta is supposed to be designed to  be user friendly... [26|17:54] even if you don't know the syntax, you can just click edit and put a bunch of words in there... [26|17:54] but I think in the future, you're going to  see a lot more, [26|17:54] get wysywig edits, etc [26|17:54] and we want to get english professors and people like that to help flesh out all of these areas. [26|17:54] we would like to see the gneder breakdown to  be closer to 50/50 [26|17:54] this room doesn't seem to be predominantly male... there's no real reason that it hsould be that way. [26|17:55] [how orthodox is the style of wp?] [26|17:55] [jw] [26|17:55] we have a lot of rules on wp [26|17:55] but one of the core rules is, ignore all the rules. [26|17:55] if the rules make you nervous, just ignore them [26|17:56] it's not an invite to vandalize, it's an  invite to relax. [26|17:56] and it's supposed to tell [other] pepole [26|17:56] <ABCD_away> <and deal with the consequeses> [26|17:56] that you're not suposed to yell at people if  htey add content that's not in the right format... [26|17:56] * ABCD_away is now known as ABCD [26|17:56] you should go in and explain to them, here's  what you did, here's how you could have formatted that... [26|17:56] you shouldn't get yelled at for doing it  wrong. [26|17:56] [jz] [26|17:56] of course the website for this course has been since the begining of the term, a wiki [26|17:56] and almost everything there has been edited or added by someoe other than me, or someone deputized by me. [26|17:57] I wonder after having this convg, if were were only haflway through this ourse, it would change the way our wiki lloked... [26|17:57] now that ew've been exposed to some ideas about wiki culture... [26|17:57] [26|17:57] I'll make a deal: if someone answers the question, I'll lower the shades... [26|17:57] [student] [26|17:57] one thing about our ase is that, it verges on  chaotic sometimes [26|17:57] poicx of things that people liked [26|17:57] a list of the class that half-got mdae and then peterd out [26|17:58] and from everything that jimbo said [26|17:58] there kind of was no dictatorial hand on top of our page [26|17:58] you [jz] suggested things, but yo uhever said, guys, you need to get on it.. [26|17:58] I wonder how this would have been different if we'd had readl marching orders or a theme... [26|17:58] <MykReeve> <is the link for this page accessible from outside Harvard Law school? can someone post a link? just being nosey> [26|17:58] and does the incentive system [26|17:58] that seems to make wp work [26|17:58] [jz here] [26|17:58] bulding reputation in a community... [26|17:59] are these incentives that would work in our case? [26|17:59] [student] [26|18:00] I wonder if it;s the same thing, [26|18:00] [since the studnets are all sort of forced to  use the site] [26|18:00] [jw] [26|18:00] it turns out that [26|18:00] * nsh has joined #wp-law [26|18:00] I was talking to the head of a big corporation the other day, [26|18:00] * Rdsmith4 has joined #wp-law [26|18:00] and they want to have a wiki [26|18:00] for users of their suoftware to be able to  use a wiki [26|18:01] to talk about the software and ... [26|18:01] many people there at the time were in support of [the idea] [26|18:01] [jz] [26|18:01] but the quesiton is whether people when they go home would actually use it... [26|18:01] [jw] [26|18:01] wikis have been [big] since [at least] 1995... [26|18:01] some of those original pioneres had said that wikipedia is not a wiki, b/c we don'tdo everything in a wiki way [26|18:02] if you have a class wiki, and you just say here it is, use ti for the class, [26|18:02] everyone will use it in some koind of chaotic way. [26|18:02] but if the class assigniment were, we're  goign to produce some kind of document on the CDS. [26|18:02] we'll produce a document on the cda to help people from small webistes get their minds around this law; [26|18:02] some peopl emight do a ton of work, others would just pitch in a little bit, but you'd have a metric for determining whether an edit furthers htis purpose or not. [26|18:02] so whenr I talk to this company, it's rpetty clear: they want to document their software. [26|18:03] where I think it may not succeed is getting people out in the wider world to use it. [26|18:03] another thing, recently: [26|18:03] Microsoft is adopting a wiki-like model for Encarta. [26|18:03] you can go to encarta, and on each article you can see a link that says "edit this page" [26|18:03] and then it looks a lot like wikipedia [26|18:03] [demonstrating online] [26|18:03] of course then you don't se your changes right away... [26|18:03] it gets vetted by someone else. [26|18:04] and of course you don't have control ove ryour changes. [26|18:04] now, I think this is stupid. [26|18:04] <laughter, applause> [26|18:04] of course this is not npov [26|18:04] I'm sort of biased. [26|18:04] but I wrote about this on my blog; [26|18:04] now people have a choice: they can either work for free to make MS richer, [26|18:04] or they can work for a public project [to make the world richer] [26|18:04] now, MS has hired people form the Washington school for information science [26|18:05] ... I 'm really eager to go and give a talk there [26|18:05] and [see what their goals are; if they'll  come work on wp :)] [26|18:05] The thing about WP is, [26|18:05] it's all under af ree license, if you don't   like the way we're running it, you can take all our content   and run your own. [26|18:05] that gives people a lot of confidence [26|18:05] . [26|18:05] [jz] [26|18:05] here's Lessig's Code site... [26|18:05] jz: digital sweatshop [26|18:05] any thoughts on that (book) [26|18:06] [digi sweatshop: re the Washington school   students] [26|18:06] [jw] [26|18:06] I haven't really looked at this: [26|18:06] whether the edits/updatesw to his books are   supposed to be corrections of typos, etc; [26|18:06] but a book like tihs is an editorial   statement of Lessig's views; [26|18:06] [jz] [26|18:06] it's supposed to be LPOV [26|18:06] [jw] [26|18:06] exactly.  I't shard to see how people could   do this, but I tihnk it's a great experiment. [26|18:06] [jz] [26|18:06] I was going to say: [26|18:06] Wikipedia, "the" free encyclopedia [26|18:06] you must have thought a bit about the diff between [26|18:06] calling it "the" free encyclopedia and "a" free encyclopedia [26|18:06] [jw] [26|18:07] well, somebody did... not me :) [26|18:07] it's very interesting. [26|18:07] [jz] [26|18:07] have you thought about a non-fork separate  encyclopedia? [26|18:07] [jw] [26|18:07] that's very interesting; there are forks out   there; most of them not very successful.  there is something   about.. [26|18:07] eric raymond wrote a great essay about   Homesteading the Noosphere [26|18:07] <on screen: cc wiki license> [26|18:07] there's one thing to say "you can fork" and   you can... [26|18:07] <version 0.5 beta> [26|18:07] but as long the leadership of the community   try to be asa ccomodating as they can, [26|18:08] there's no reason to leave. [26|18:08] in Germany for instance, there's a fork by   someone who's a... deletionist. [26|18:08] we talk about deletionists and inclusionissts. [26|18:08] should we have a nencyclopedia aout this   podium here? [26|18:08] obviously now. [26|18:08] should we have an article about something like - kirkland something? [26|18:08] [jz] kirkland house [26|18:08] [jw] - apparently important raound here. [26|18:08] the german form by uli -- I like uli, I tend towards his point of view, [26|18:09] he believes wp shouldn't have all these articles about pokemon etc. [26|18:09] will he be successful, I don't know. [26|18:09] <uwe?> [26|18:09] b/c I suspect that most of his users are comofrtable where we are. [26|18:09] <Xirzon> <sannse: Ulrich Fuchs, www.wikiweise.de> [26|18:09] but his stuff is under a free license [26|18:09] so if he becomes really successful, we could use [one another's] content. [26|18:09] there's also [larry?] who thinks there will be an academic fork [26|18:09] I said, if somebody wants to organize something like that, [26|18:10] we've got the servers, we've got the support, we've got the people [26|18:10] if you want ot do that, let's talk aobut it! we want to do a reviewed version, a stale version [26|18:10] <Xirzon> <stable :-)> [26|18:10] (: [26|18:10] we want to do it in a way to develop a  respected community [26|18:10] [zephyr teachout] [26|18:10] about wikinews [26|18:10] it looks like a lot of the content is  derivative. [26|18:10] ? [26|18:10] [jw] [26|18:11] I don't conisder wikinews a fork [26|18:11] b/c it 's a different community, a different goal [26|18:11] it might be something like a fork if it  started to draw contributors away from wp [26|18:11] ... as the comunity gets larger, I wouldn't  think that it continues to have systemic bias issues [26|18:12] (talking about how much romanian content  there is) [26|18:12] (looking at American who owns BenedictXVI...) [26|18:12] I think that alo tof the [curent] strength in  wikinews is synthesizing media  reports [26|18:12] American who owns BenedictXVI.com ... [26|18:12] if you think of te front page of the paper and the editorial page, [26|18:12] wikinews is a response to the front page [26|18:12] now we have an interest in original reporting [26|18:12] that's a really tough social pro blem. [26|18:13] in wp we have no original research... [26|18:13] how do you certify people as being ttrugted by the community? [26|18:13] suppose you say, wp will be much more successful than the AP, b/c we will have many more poeople than they could possibly muste.r.. [26|18:13] but will we have more people who we *trust*? [26|18:13] when wikinews was getting started, around the ukraine crisis, [26|18:14] we were wondering, can we get forntline reports? [26|18:14] <Rdsmith4> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title =Alex_Rodriguez&curid=212472&diff=0&oldid=12811220 <-- E-Rod or A-Rod? [26|18:14] that's a problem. if we don't alkready know someone in that world, [26|18:14] ow do we know we're not ust hearing a  partisan POV? [26|18:14] [belize ref] [26|18:14] <Rdsmith4> oops wrong channel [26|18:14] :) [26|18:15] wikinews scooped with man on ground [26|18:15] jz: who edits front page? [26|18:15] jw: just wikinewsians [26|18:15] question: competing with google news  like aggregator? [26|18:15] jw: yes [26|18:15] jz: but not just links, actual news on   wikinews [26|18:16] jw: yes, want to synthesize [26|18:16] diverse viewpoints fox news, cnn, al   jaze. etc [26|18:16] jw: why are all laptops ibm? [26|18:16] jz: no, just lemmings :) [26|18:16] special deal with harvard [26|18:17] jw: colin powell article very biased either way [26|18:17] but can sleep at night because article will be there [26|18:17] but article "colin powell resigns" different [26|18:17] * Rdsmith4 has left #wp-law [26|18:17] problem, how do you get it right in  short period of time? [26|18:18] [26|18:18] over representation of romania on front page [26|18:18] [26|18:18] jz: flights hardly news worthy [26|18:18] jw: then get busy writing [26|18:19] [26|18:19] if ilya makes an original report, we'll say [26|18:19] yeah, we know ilya, so we can trust that report [26|18:19] that's very similar to what goes on in a news org [26|18:19] yo uhave a hiring process, you trust people, you get to know them... [26|18:19] <Q> [26|18:19] would we ever accept advertising? [26|18:19] <A> [26|18:20] I'm opposed to having advertising in   wikipedia; [26|18:20] there's something really sweet about wp the way it is. [26|18:20] but I wouldn't say that never under any circumstances would we consider it. [26|18:20] there's oging to be a time when the amount of  money we'd be turning down every month from sth like google ads [26|18:20] is so much that we have to consider how not turning it down would affect our charitable goals. [26|18:21] and how, by doing that, do we miss out on  large-scale grants or donations? [26|18:21] that kind of opportunity mght be denied to  use if we became just another site with advertising. [26|18:21] it's all in the non-profit foundation, so  nobody could make any money out of it... [26|18:21] I suppose I could pay myself a salary, but so  what, if I need a job I could get a job. [26|18:21] the only need is if there were enough money there to do soemthing about our charitable goals. [26|18:22] [so it's unlikely, but I'm not going to rule it out entirely.] [26|18:22] <Q> [26|18:22] re: the proposed mediation, ja/zh disagreement [26|18:22] would that mediation be part of WP or WN? [26|18:22] jw: no, that was just... joi ito is a very prominent internet guy, and a big blogger and so forth [26|18:22] he was talking about the possibility of using a wiki to have a conversation about what's going on there; it wouldn't take place on our servers. [26|18:22] some of that is proably going on on articles related to... but [26|18:22] <Q> [26|18:22] would you ever ese WP or WN becoming a fourm like this: [26|18:23] wehre you have a comon story/thread wher eparties that disagtree... [26|18:23] [jw] [26|18:23] to some extent that 's arleady happening, to  the extent that [26|18:23] if you go to PW right now, [26|18:23] I assume that we have an article in WP itself about the recent riots in china, [26|18:23] the anti-Ja protests [26|18:23] on those pages, ther eare probably people of  diff viewpoints trying to get that story right. [26|18:23] I do think it would be useful to have special-purpose websites like that. [26|18:23] during that last election campaign, there was this quesitons about john k's miliatry servifce, medals, etc [26|18:24] a lot of lames were going bakc and forth. the wp article, I thought was pretty good [26|18:24] but wouldn't it be intereswting to ge people together from both sides to say, [26|18:24] let's agree on [this central core thing] [26|18:24] how possible is that? [26|18:24] it all depends on how reasonable and friendly people are, I think [26|18:24] there's a lot of issues where ther are reaosnable divergences of viewpoint [26|18:24] wher epeopleshould be able to cooperate to  poresent a cetnral view of it. [26|18:24] it would be a cool webiste, if it worked out... [26|18:24] I don't know how well it would work. [26|18:24] [JZ] [26|18:25] <on screen: dokdo page restricted from editing> [26|18:25] I just picked Dokdo [26|18:25] a page about a hotly contested [set of?] island[s] b/t ko: and ja: ... [26|18:25] [jw] [26|18:25] we have a few rules about this: [26|18:25] if you're personally involved in an edit dispute, you shouldn't protect the page. [26|18:25] if you do, that's uncool. [26|18:25] of course, to what extent does that really help? [26|18:25] but generally that's our policy. [26|18:25] ... [26|18:26] generally, one reason to protect a page is  that there are two sides tha have just gotten too angry... [26|18:26] so the page is protected for people to calm down. [26|18:26] another is, sometimes there's just a lot of  vandalism. [26|18:26] <kim_bruning> <we'll get a tidied version of this presentation on the wiki later, right?> [26|18:26] there was an article at some point about WP  during the elections [26|18:27] saying that the edit war over gwbush et al  was tearing the community apart... [26|18:27] but most editors didn't notice that. [26|18:27] (see presentations? not really.) [26|18:27] <Q> on this dokdo page, [26|18:27] we're lookign at the en: versoin [26|18:27] on the left hand side, you can see ja: and other languages; [26|18:27] can you talk a bit about what we would see if  you go to the other languages? [26|18:27] [jw] [26|18:27] unfortunately, I only read english. [26|18:28] in general, I'm told the language diversity is not so bad, and they are largely the same across languages. [26|18:28] there are instance,s I hear, of pages where one article says the wright brothers invented the airpland, and in french someone else is credited; [26|18:28] it would be better if both articles said that in english-speaking countries the wright brothers are credited, and in french-speaking countries, someone else is... [26|18:29] this would be great, because then you would learn something from each of these articles... [26|18:29] most books like to present one side. [26|18:30] [from earlier: "in the next version of the  software, there will be a feature to delay edits to certain   pages, by 30 seconds or 5 minutes to mitigate this kind of   rapid vandalism while letting people edit] [26|18:30] jz: might not be npov on the japanese   version [26|18:30] of dokdo [26|18:31] jz: why didnt you use cc license? [26|18:31] jw: answer, we pre date cc so it didn't   exist at the time [26|18:31] gfdl assumes document written by two   people, cover text, etc [26|18:31] thinking about a book clearly [26|18:31] not a wiki on the web [26|18:31] talked to fsf, etal [26|18:31] I've talked to richard stallman, to everyone   on the board of the fsf.. in the futuer, my hope is that [26|18:32] the FDL will be radically simplified. [26|18:32] when I was comoing here (I just say lessig in   CA) I said, I'm going to talk to a bunch of law students [26|18:32] what should I tell them to work on? [26|18:32] he said: license incompatibility. [26|18:32] the problem is, the FDL is exactly the same spirit (as CC) yet if there's work under CC-SA you can't  just copy and paste into WP and vice-versa. [26|18:32] they all say sth like "you can release this  work under 'the same terms as this license'" and there's no   easy ansewr to making these things compatible. [26|18:33] problems coudl be solved be revising a  new release of the license [26|18:33] but takes time [26|18:33] I've never met [ward] and never talked to  him; we've exchanged 2 or 3 emails... [26|18:34] he's been invited to our conference.. we're  having our first big international conference this summer. [26|18:34] and sj is on the committee organizing the conference this summer [26|18:34] and he invited ward, and he said yes, and so  [I'm going to meet him] [26|18:34] there's a famous quote from him from the very beginning of wikipedia; [26|18:34] and he said "oh, [26|18:34] that's a great idea, but it will be still be  a wiki, not an ecnyclopeida" [26|18:34] (I wonder if he still thinks that now) [26|18:35] and wired mag had me up for a tech innovator this year; [26|18:35] and I laughed, b/c I don't innovate anything; I just hang out on irc all the time [26|18:35] [jz] [26|18:35] do you still edit wp yourself? [26|18:35] [jw] [26|18:35] I never edited much at all. occasionally a  spelling ifx. [26|18:35] wikipedia is not so much a technical innovation as a social innovation [26|18:35] in the early days of wikipedia, I thought it  was important that it not be viewed as 'jimbopedia' [26|18:35] * Raul654 has joined #wp-law [26|18:35] that it didn't reflect my political views. [26|18:35] furthermore, once we got rolling [26|18:36] and I played this role of monarhc of the community, resp0lving these disputes, [26|18:36] you can't resolve disputes when you're  involved [in them] [26|18:36] I don't htink I'd be a very good editor [26|18:36] I'm really too opinionated. [26|18:36] [jz] [26|18:36] so we come full circle.. [26|18:36] we started this course with a story about ICANN [26|18:36] about the first bits of gov't of the internet itself [26|18:36] <Raul654> is this video available in a less evil format than real player? [26|18:37] <on screen: jon postel on google images> [26|18:37] ... if people didn't like it, they could have done their onw protocols. but the laws he makes only make sense in sofar as the wiki community wants to rally around them. [26|18:37] s/wiki// [26|18:37] and so many of the themes have been echoed in  what jimmy has said today, [26|18:37] something that reports to be a repositpry of  humankinds knowledge... [26|18:37] it still remainds to be seeing where we are going, [26|18:38] but i hope it gives some flavor to the way we're really beginning to turn the corner, [26|18:38] and may really not have what we seem to have now. [26|18:38] what really matters ot me is: [26|18:38] how sustainable these models of informality, that explicitly rejet law and instead go for something else --- an-archy, or sth much more webby if not entirely without govt -- as its guiding principle [26|18:38] and maybe, not under god or law, but under a  guy [26|18:38] who we trust is going to do the right thing [26|18:38] and seeing how much those models can last [26|18:38] when they really hit the harsh glar eof success [26|18:39] and of lots of people wanting in who arelnt part of this beautifully insular but still [open] community [26|18:39] and it's one we have to look at in every weay as our society [26|18:39] generates and trades and consumes law [26|18:39] copyright law; the ways people get incented to do stuff, [26|18:39] are or aren't challenged by models that are really standing up [26|18:39] like this one. [26|18:39] . [26|18:39] we're at time; [26|18:39] I think right now, we should thank the people online [26|18:39] and especially thank jw [26|18:40] for such an elucidationg and interesting presentation. [26|18:40] * cyberlawguy has quit IRC [26|18:40] <MykReeve> go enjoy the food, msj... good typing, thanks. [26|18:40] sj: ja users says korean bias and vice versa [26|18:40] <kim_bruning> Thank you VERY VETRY VERY much msj! [26|18:40] en pov is pro korean bias [26|18:40] <kim_bruning> you're a hero! [26|18:41] <ABCD> thx [26|18:41] <kim_bruning> Now go put ointment on your poor wrists and fingers! :-) [26|18:41] <ABCD> thx msj [26|18:41] no prob! [26|18:41] <kim_bruning> in other news [26|18:41] john mcbride is saying he's going to write a  report on everything [26|18:41] <kim_bruning> we should get jimbo a PDA thingy with   WIFI support [26|18:41] <kim_bruning> and have an irc prompter up for him   ;-) [26|18:41] on a side-poroject (wiki?) stuff up for him ;0) [26|18:42] <Angela> thanks sj. I was listening to it too, but  still useful to have the written version to look at when the   sound wasn't clear :) End of #wp-law buffer   Tue Apr 26 18:42 2005