Wikipedia:Lectures/Lecture2-log

*: Now talking on #wikipedia-en-lectures

*: Notify: sanna is online (kubrick.freenode.net).

*: Notify: ideogram is online (kubrick.freenode.net).

*: Notify: siebrand is online (kubrick.freenode.net).

SteveCrossin: keya kim

xavexgoem: Hey kim

*: SteveCrossin beat xavexgoem to saying hello to kim :P

kim_: yay (?)

kim_: http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/bonobo-conspiracy/

kim_: Oh dear...

SteveCrossin: lol

xavexgoem: kim_, quick question: is the purpose of medcab to foster consensus for the sake of the article or the sake of the editors? What has priority?

xavexgoem: or mediation generally

kim_: heh

kim_: it is assumed that the editors have the quality of the article at heart? ;-)

xavexgoem: 1/2ly

*: kim_ says, tactfully

kim_: if they don't, you ahve 2 problems, not 1 ;-)

xavexgoem: oh, it is, not is it...

xavexgoem: Despite all that good talk on NPOV, V, and NOR. . . hmm

*: xavexgoem thinks UNDUE is a massive beaning. Yes, Steve, I know I already said that :-p

kim_: beaning as in WP:BEANS? ;-)

xavexgoem: yes

kim_: :-P

xavexgoem: But it's a relevant question: what comes first, getting people to write properly, or get people to like each other? Or is the second kind of a crap shoot?

*: xavexgoem doesn't know what he's talking about at all anymore

xavexgoem: (per UNDUE & BEAN: wouldn't the community naturally assume a more global perspective? Doesn't undue interfere with this by making it a prerogative?)

xavexgoem: dammit all if IRC isn't a great forum of rambling.

xavexgoem: *for

xavexgoem: UNDUE places too much weight on V, and V/RS is always iffy, and relies on how information funnels in from the outside. Status quote (due weight) becomes a function of what the media says, and not what people think. I guess is what I'm saying.

xavexgoem: (quo, not quote)

xavexgoem: And now: Queen Quaalude and the Fantastic Five-point-Five!

xavexgoem: *audience cheers*

kim_: heh you're questioning the rules

kim_: that's good :)

xavexgoem: yes. yes, I am.

kim_: why the media?

xavexgoem: not necessarily the media, just sources in general

xavexgoem: Ideally...

xavexgoem: (warning)

kim_: don't for instance scientists on wikipedia generally consider peer reviewed journals to be their basic bread-and-butter?

kim_: peer reviewed journals is sort of an old fashioned way to do wikipedia

kim_: with a massive barrier to entry :-P

xavexgoem: Ideally, wikipedia has enough folks on that consensus should gravitate towards the status quo regardless of media at any rate. I'm wondering if healthy conflict is in some ways good.

xavexgoem: Peer reviewed is fine

xavexgoem: But that's scientific before anything

kim_: is that wrong?

kim_: SPOV ~= NPOV

kim_: it's close enough... most of the time

kim_: I figure one day in future, some people will rail against NPOV

xavexgoem: scientific peer-reviewed sources?

kim_: in the same way some rail against SPOV

xavexgoem: No.

xavexgoem: NPOV is fine. UNDUE, I think, is a problem.

kim_: at some point people will take NPOV to be authoritative... and then go like "but my is actuaklly right... NPOV is just a point of view"

kim_: "evolution is just a theory' ... we're sorta already there :-P{

*: kim_ snickers

xavexgoem: Right.

kim_: UNDUE is growing in prominence?

xavexgoem: Hold on, distilling thoughts.

xavexgoem: (yes)

xavexgoem: Q1. Does consensus take priority over NPOV?

xavexgoem: particularly if the pool is saturated

xavexgoem: (which I suppose is part of the problem)

xavexgoem: (i.e., fringe areas don't receive as much attention)

kim_: A1: ideally consensus == NPOV

kim_: A2: the idea is to get consensus on what IS NPOV... everyone is assumed to be aiming to make the encyclopedia NPOV :-)

xavexgoem: Hmm... I don't understand my question, I think :-p

kim_: A3: people should be "writing for the enemy" ... so consensus should fall in between the crossed-over positions ...

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xavexgoem: that much makes sense

kim_: A4: when people "write for themselves", NPOV should still be in the middle-ish.. which is also where consensus lives

kim_: but noe of these answers are perfect

xavexgoem: meh, I'll try to expand on what I'm going for over time (I understood it exactly for 1 second yesterday :-p)

kim_: if I say 1+1=3

kim_: and you say 1+1=4

*: xavexgoem listens

kim_: then the middle is 1+1=3.5

kim_: while the real answer is 2

kim_: ;-)

kim_: though this could be take as sample bias ;-)

kim_: taken as

kim_: perhaps if you ask enough people...

*: SteveCrossin is now known as SteveCrossin3

xavexgoem: Ok, what I mean is: consensus is ideally NPOV, because NPOV is an ideal consensus

kim_: yes

kim_: that sounds right

kim_: :-)

kim_: of course... now we enter the Real World (tm) ;-)

xavexgoem: So why the instruction on undue weight?

kim_: to compensate for sample bias?

kim_: interested people tend to gravitate towards a subject area

kim_: but I haven't studied UNDUE extensively

xavexgoem: (wracks head)

xavexgoem: Yes, but both sides of a given argument for a subject area are going to gravitate anyway

xavexgoem: I'm seeing an inherent problem in my argument, now, but it's limitation is how we structure ourselves here

xavexgoem: So: nevermind :-p

xavexgoem: So I can see why it's in NPOV

kim_: well

kim_: it'd be nice if you told the rest of us ;-)

xavexgoem: I /might/ bring it up on WT:NPOV

xavexgoem: It's hard to argue with the idea that there will be 20 people editing homeopathy for their point of view and 3 expert-withdrawalers against them will get anything done)

*: xavexgoem shrinks noticably

xavexgoem: 14:30! Yay!

*: xavexgoem has quit ("Leaving.")

kim_: eek

kim_: I still need to work on the exercises

*: kim_ has changed the topic to: test

kim_: I can change topic... that much is good

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kim_: looks like mostly medcab in here

kim_: would someone start inviting people?

Xavexgoem: sure

kim_: coolness

kim_: it's time

kim_: like last time, no-one is here yet ;-)

kim_: seems par for the course

kim_: Xavexgoem, ahve you been doing the invitation thing already?

kim_: ^^;;

*: kim_ is typing some text on-wiki

Xavexgoem: kim_: yes

Xavexgoem: but I didn't specify freenode. I hope they figure that bit out

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Xavexgoem: well, it worked once :-D

Sardanaphalus: hi!

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Sardanaphalus: thanks for reminder

Xavexgoem: np

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Bob222: I am Filll

Sardanaphalus: hi Bob

kim_: Hye bob, you're filll? ;-)

kim_: Heya ;-)

Bob222: Yes I am Filll

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kim_: Ok, nearly done typing ...

Bob222: I barely know how to use IRC

Bob222: can I change my name?

Xavexgoem: type /nick [name]

kim_: Filll: last time we noticed it took up to 30 minutes before everyone finally showed up

*: Bob222 is now known as Filll

kim_: Bob222: type /nick Filll

kim_: right :-)

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Xavexgoem: halfway done through "I think I already"'s

kim_: Xavexgoem, technically isn't it /nick  ? ;-)

Sardanaphalus: oops sorry i hit close

*: kim_ is a BNF-nazi

Xavexgoem: meh :-p

Sardanaphalus: backus-naur (sp?)

Sardanaphalus: back us nao!

kim_: ayup

Sardanaphalus: okay what's the topic

Xavexgoem: uhh, 256 megs sucks atm

Sardanaphalus: or is it free q&a?

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Sardanaphalus: is it my end or are things slow?

Xavexgoem: ?

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Sardanaphalus: nothing seems to be happening...?

Filll2: nope all quiet

Filll2: except i keep getting booted

*: kim_ has changed the topic to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions

kim_: Ok

kim_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions

kim_: everyone here?

kim_: I guess so

Xavexgoem: got 'em all

Sardanaphalus: okay i've opened the link

kim_: hey everyone, welcome to lecture 2, starting 15 minutes late ;-)

Sardanaphalus: :-)

kim_: please read the link, and read through Filll's questions a bit

*: kim_ bows to Filll

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kim_: thank you very much for making those questions, they're useful for all kinds of things!

kim_: :-)

kim_: hello AGK!

[AGK]: Hello Kim ;) Sorry I'm late.

[AGK]: Have we finished?

kim_: AGK : we were just looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions

kim_: we've just started

[AGK]: I'll take a look now, thanks.

kim_: it seems to be a law of physics that everyone shows up 30 minutes late

kim_: so we go slow for the first 30 ;-)

[AGK]: Sensible =)

kim_: maybe something to do with the basic psyche of the typical wikipedian ;-)

kim_: we'll end at 17:00 UTC

Sardanaphalus: okay, so are we meant to take Filll's challenge now, or just discuss it?

kim_: (2 hours from start time)

[AGK]: Ah yes, Fill's challenge.

[AGK]: I was just going to discuss that =)

[AGK]: Well, advertise it :p

kim_: I was thinking of walking through a couple of questions of Fillls challenge

[AGK]: Oh, Filll's here.

[AGK]: Yeah, great idea, kim.

kim_: and I've also posted a method as to how I think we should do each question

Sardanaphalus: okay kim, i like

kim_: well, more than "I think" :-P

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kim_: I've got some basic steps you can take to systematically be sure that what you're going to do will actually work ;-)

Sniperz11: aha...

kim_: of course, you can take the steps wrong

Sniperz11: I'm i too late??

kim_: but if you do it RIGHT ....

*: White_Cat_Zzz is now known as White_Cat

kim_: Sniperz11, yes and no, we count on folks being half an hour late

kim_: start out by reading through ...

kim_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions

kim_: Sniperz11, so we take it easy the first half hour ;-)

Sniperz11: hehe... thx

kim_: Don't count on us counting on the half hour though :-P

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Sniperz11: I jus saw the message on my talk. Rushed here as fast as i could. :-)

kim_: so there be Filll's challenge

kim_: Cool

[AGK]: I'm just getting folks to join.

kim_: Hello Qst

[AGK]: Hello Qst!

kim_: AGK: heh!

Qst: Hello :)

[AGK]: kim_: Qst's wondering what the lecture's on.

kim_: QST: same to you : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions (it's in the channel topic) ... we start really talking in 10 more minutes or so

[AGK]: Care to explain?

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kim_: AGK: lecture is about how to deal with complex wikipedia situations, while maintaining consensus

[AGK]: kim_: skype would make this so much easier =)

kim_: Welcome again Filll3 :-)

Filll3: yes i am having trouble

Filll3: haha

kim_: AGK: but not everyone here has skype... do they?

Sniperz11: who here has skype??

Qst: I wasn't planning on getting involved with the AGF challenge

kim_: show of hands?

Sniperz11: show of hands

Sardanaphalus: i got a comment about one thing on the lecture2-questions page that could kick things off

Qst: But I might, I'll see

Sardanaphalus: skype? nope, sorry

kim_: Qst, that's ok... we're going to answer the questions together

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kim_: \The other problem with skype, AGK, is that we won't nescesarily have a log :-)

Sniperz11: record it...

[AGK]: kim_: we can record, however.

Sniperz11: Wikipedia Weekly does that

kim_: Filll3, if you keep getting disconnected, that's ok... we'll keep a log

kim_: OH, that ROCKS!

kim_: we'd also need transcript ;-)

Xavexgoem: I'm an excellent transcriptionist

Xavexgoem: as in: I type fast :-p

kim_: AGK: ok, so one of the next lectures will be recorded... it's a deal!

[AGK]: kim_: there you go ;)

kim_: :-)

Sardanaphalus: also NotTheWikipediaWeekly

[AGK]: the wikipedia weekly do transcripts =)

*: Xavexgoem is an over-eager nit :-p

[AGK]: kim_: great stuff ;)

[AGK]: I'll chat with you on skype about the specifics afterwards.

kim_: Wicked!

kim_: alright

kim_: Sardanaphalus, well, go ahead and comment ...

Sardanaphalus: well, i think it might be inviting trouble if you suggest already how you might compromise on something

kim_: and I might do some intro, then we'll attack a couple of the questions together (that's 10 minutes from now) .. and we end at 17:00 UTC ... I think that's a plan for today :-)

Sardanaphalus: okay, hold on that comment then

kim_: Sardanaphalus, Sometimes yes, sometimes no, that's a judgement call/ variation you'll need to think about yourself

Xavexgoem: Hey, if there are any folks who joined w/o going through WP:Lectures, can you add yourself to that?

[AGK]: kim_: I need to pop off for a bit, I may miss some of the lecture.

[AGK]: I'll keep idling, and read up afterwards.

kim_: but you do need to KNOW where you're going to compromise upfront

Xavexgoem: (later, probably)

kim_: AGK: that's fine!

[AGK]: kk ;)

Sardanaphalus: yes i agree

*: [AGK] is now known as [AGK|away]

kim_: so for each of Fillls questions... try to answer the lecture-2 page questions, so that you systematically get all sides covered :-)

*: [AGK|away] just invited more people here.

kim_: yet more?

kim_: wow!

Xavexgoem: kim_: on talk? or here?

kim_: Xavexgoem, what do you mean?

kim_: Xavexgoem, Oh no... I see

kim_: Xavexgoem, No I mean, we're going to do that together :-)

Xavexgoem: kk

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Phoenix-wiki: lecture on what?

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Filll4: wow I am getting a big list

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kim_: I suggest we discuss the arrow of time one, that sounds like my favorite kind of situation ;-)

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Filll4: haha

Filll4: that is a good one

kim_: Hello Phoenix-wiki : we're doing lectures on how to be a member of the wikipedia cabal ;-) How to make friends and influence wikis :-)

Filll4: and based on a real situation of course

Phoenix-wiki: ah, lol

Phoenix-wiki: well that's easily done

Phoenix-wiki: WP:COUNCIL

Phoenix-wiki: join it

[AGK|away]: :p

Phoenix-wiki: it actually exists lol

Phoenix-wiki: I'm a member

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, today we're going to do some exercises based on Filll's AGF challenge

kim_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions

Sardanaphalus: i'm up for the arrow-of-time, i just read it

kim_: we'll be walking through some of them systematically

Qst: I've said about this channel in ##Majorly, so hopefully we'll get more people

kim_: to see how we'd solve such cases on the wiki if they occur in real time ;-)

kim_: gee whiz!

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions

Phoenix-wiki: I have it ope

Phoenix-wiki: HEAD INTO #wikipedia-en-lectures

Phoenix-wiki: ALL IN

Phoenix-wiki: oops

Phoenix-wiki: wrong channel

Phoenix-wiki: :-p

[AGK|away]: :D

Sardanaphalus: we have self-referential overload

kim_: ROTFL

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[AGK|away]: lulz

[AGK|away]: Hey Not the NSA

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, maybe some folks might join your council idea :-)

Phoenix-wiki: anyway, are we gonna start these question things?

kim_: Hello Not_the_NSA, this channel is logged, so even if you WERE the NSA, we wouldn't mind ;-)

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Filll4: Nothing wrong with the NSA

Filll4: haha

kim_: Not_the_NSA, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions

*: kim_ has changed the topic to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions  ... we'll be looking at the Arrow of Time problem first

kim_: Ok, stop inviting

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Not_the_NSA: kim_: :D

*: Not_the_NSA isn't interested

Not_the_NSA: bye

kim_: Not_the_NSA, bye!

kim_: :-)

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Filll4: see you NSA

Sniperz11: whats the count to start of lecture??

kim_: we're starting now

Sniperz11: do i have enough time to reboot my comp??

kim_: and if more people get invited... It'll get too hard for me :-)

Sardanaphalus: they'll know they're late, it's okay

kim_: well that, and too many people makes it hard to interact on irc :-)

kim_: I'd need +o and so

Phoenix-wiki: start

kim_: ok, so let's look at the arrow of time question

kim_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Filll/AGF_Challenge#Arrow_of_Time

kim_: has everyone read that through?

kim_: So first up, what's your gut feeling about that?

kim_: (todays lecture is going to be interactive)

kim_: ;-)

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Xavexgoem: Is that a legal threat? Or just a trolling?

Phoenix-wiki: I'll read through

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Sardanaphalus: the 47-edit guy isn't being reasonable

Xavexgoem: I mean, it's not saying "I'm gonna sue you"

Texas_Patriot: Read it.

Sardanaphalus: Ps guy includes gals, sorry

Phoenix-wiki: okay

Sardanaphalus: the threat to sue is without foundation, surely

kim_: Xavexgoem, Right, legal threats are easy, just block 'em and point 'em to OTRS

Phoenix-wiki: I'd have him blocked per WP:LEGAL

kim_: Sardanaphalus, is he saying he's suing though? read carefully

Sardanaphalus: ah okay

Texas_Patriot: He's making a statement threat of suing other editors & WP.

Texas_Patriot: Block.

Sardanaphalus: hold on, OTRS...?

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Phoenix-wiki: and most of all, he's being the biggest DICK I've ever seen

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kim_: so you'd just block him point-blank?

Phoenix-wiki: blcok him per WP:LEGAL

Phoenix-wiki: yeah

kim_: that would be pretty darn short

Phoenix-wiki: well I can't

NotASpy: lo kim_ and all

Phoenix-wiki: but I'd post to ANI

kim_: Right

Xavexgoem: How do you warn against semi-borderline-adjective-legal threats?

Phoenix-wiki: and if I was an admin I'd ban him right off

*: Xavexgoem wouldn't outright block

Sardanaphalus: even if you're an admin, not incident-board post first?

Texas_Patriot: If it wasn't for the legal threat, I'd open a mediation.

NotASpy: who needs beaten with a stick now ?

SteveCrossin3: block block block block block block block block block block block block block v

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Phoenix-wiki: yeah I probably would go to ANI

kim_: I think Xavexgoem has the first clue ;-)

Sardanaphalus: go on, please

SteveCrossin3: per WP:LEGAL = block

kim_: Xavexgoem is saying that he's not actually threatening to sue :-)

Xavexgoem: 43 edits doesn't quite qualify as SPA yet, either

SteveCrossin3: and

kim_: NotASpy, see topic ;-)

Xavexgoem: in my mind

SteveCrossin3: cos i say so :P

Sardanaphalus: no threat: this is true

Phoenix-wiki: "But, you are going to get WP and yourself sued if you continue to believe WP..."

Phoenix-wiki: people have been blocked for less than that

Xavexgoem: The first thing to do is to ignore that entirely

Sardanaphalus: well, okay, veiled threat

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, they have?

Xavexgoem: legal threats

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, I'd note a question there...

Phoenix-wiki: yes

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, "are you actually threatening to sue? or do you mean that others MIGHT sue, when they learn of this?"

kim_: it might be WP:PANIC instead :-P

Texas_Patriot: I've seen people blocked for it before.

Sardanaphalus: the real problem tho is his/her apparent inability to communicate/collaborate earlier in the sotry

kim_: right

Phoenix-wiki: he's technically saying others might sue, but it's a veiled threat

Sardanaphalus: story

Texas_Patriot: not sure if for less than that however. It does seem borderline.

kim_: okay

kim_: but we'd like to resolve the situation, if possible

NotASpy: what's wrong with blocking the user, protecting their talk page, preventing them from sending e-mail and blacklisting from the unblock mailing list ?

Xavexgoem: I'd drop him off at wikiquette

kim_: just block and run seems rather crude :-)

Sardanaphalus: yes, i agree

Phoenix-wiki: and he should have been blcoked for edit warring anyway

kim_: heh

kim_: GOOD LORD

kim_: you guys are all so darn violent!

kim_: ;-)

Sardanaphalus: as non-admin, i feel the jump to block too quick

Phoenix-wiki: NotASpy, that'd be a bit far

NotASpy: surely not.

Phoenix-wiki: well he is a pov pusher

Xavexgoem: Maybe he has a place to contribute elsewhere?

kim_: NotASpy, posting a watch on their house, installing snipers, hacking the pentagon, and firing a nuclear strike? ;-)

kim_: Ok...

NotASpy: kim_: yeah, you're getting the idea now. Jolly good.

Sardanaphalus: i've had a less heavy-duty version of this not too long

Sardanaphalus: ago

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kim_: well, that's the shortest question ever then

Filll: back

kim_: now here's the thing

Filll: haha

Phoenix-wiki: if he'd been doign that for 2 weeks he would have been brought to ANI

kim_: say I sign you on to EA

Filll: short is good

Phoenix-wiki: and made to stop

kim_: and this guy comes to you and asks you to get him off... ;-)

kim_: or say you're a mediator

Filll: I have some longer ones in the 2nd batch of exercises

Sardanaphalus: wait, sorry, what is EA

kim_: Editor Assistence

Sardanaphalus: not Electronic Arts i'm guessing

Sardanaphalus: ah okay

Sardanaphalus: thanks

kim_: you're supposed to help the editor write the wiki

Sardanaphalus: ya

Phoenix-wiki: yeah?

kim_: so this guy has been doing some stupid things

Sardanaphalus: yup

Phoenix-wiki: yeah?

Xavexgoem: otoh, everyone is tolerating him.

kim_: but as their editor assistent, we now need to advise them how to get out of the sticky situation ;-)

Sardanaphalus: but not tolerating him in an EFFECTIVe way

Xavexgoem: Sard, yeah

Phoenix-wiki: kim_, depends on the situation in question

kim_: Can we still prevent others from blocking him?

Sardanaphalus: offer to help him/her get one of the refs needed

*: kim_ says, making this challenge question a lot more challenging, suddenly :-)

Phoenix-wiki: if I thought that he was a genuine editor who'd been a bit stupid, I'd probably get them out of trouble somehow

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NotASpy: kim_: no, you're not supposed to help *the* editor help write the wiki, you're supposed to help *all* editors write the wiki, and if one or two people are getting in the way, they need to be sacrificed for the greater good.

Sardanaphalus: yes, phoenix, that's where i am

Phoenix-wiki: NotASpy, that's exactly my philosophy

Xavexgoem: Huh? You can't help all editors. Unless you have a REALLY big room :-p

Sardanaphalus: man that's raw, NotASpy!!

kim_: NotASpy, well, if you're EA, you're sort of supposed to try and help this one guy :-)

Phoenix-wiki: Igorberger should be indef banned

Texas_Patriot: According to WP:EA, its to help editors with understanding the wiki policy and editing.

kim_: NotASpy, you're an old-style wikipedian, I can tell ;-)

NotASpy: being too heavy handed is bad, but being overly generous is equally as bad.

kim_: NotASpy, I agree... but can we try to help this guy?

Phoenix-wiki: no

kim_: NotASpy, and see if they are truely a lost cause? :-)

Sardanaphalus: the editor may have good stuff contribute if they can just get past being asked for sources

NotASpy: who are we trying to help ?

Xavexgoem: No?

Xavexgoem: It's called the AGF challenge :-p

kim_: NotASpy, the 47-edits guy :-)

kim_: if everyone just assumes bad faith upfront

kim_: it's gonna be a very short session ;-)

*: kim_ snickers

Phoenix-wiki: email him to say that he should create a sock in a month and not get into trouble next time if he really watns to help, and not to tell anyone, including me who the sock is

Sardanaphalus: assuming it's a topic i was into, i'd try to do one (just one) ref for them and seewhat they make of it

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, wow

Phoenix-wiki: that's what they do anyway

kim_: alright

Xavexgoem: ...

kim_: so that's your initial position

kim_: ;-)

kim_: that;s your gut feeling anyway ;-)

Sardanaphalus: in other words, encourage them to do what people were asking for and what the encyclopedia needs

kim_: I think Sardanaphalus probably has the best approach

Phoenix-wiki: socks get you out of trouble easily

Texas_Patriot: Wikipedia:Assume stupidity

kim_: Alright

Phoenix-wiki: you're even allowed to by policy

Texas_Patriot: or WP:ASS

Texas_Patriot: ;)

kim_: so we go with Sardanaphalus approach... that's just question 1 on the list though ;-)

kim_: the next question ...

Phoenix-wiki: create a sock to "start again"

kim_: who is involved in this position

NotASpy: no, you need to WP:Assume Good Faith but Expect Stupidity

Sardanaphalus: but if they continue being obstructive, i guess the situation goes up a defcon

kim_: who is involved in this situation?

Texas_Patriot: Good version NotASpy

kim_: Sardanaphalus, exactly

Sardanaphalus: the arrow-of-time situation?

*: kim_ pokes White_Cat -> can you give me a +O?

kim_: Sardanaphalus, yes :-)

kim_: Order Order!

Sardanaphalus: theoretically the whole community, but i'm guessing you mean more directly

kim_: We're on "* who is involved" for the arrow of time situation (see topic for material for today)

Phoenix-wiki: I think Guy agrees with NotASpy, btw

kim_: Sardanaphalus, yes

a: which case are we talking about here?

Sardanaphalus: okay, the 47-edit guy and the other editors on the talk page?

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, the sock plan might be a good backup plan, if Sardanaphalus plan doesn't quite work

Sardanaphalus: the arrow-of-time

Xavexgoem: "Arrow of Time"

kim_: Sardanaphalus, Ayup

Phoenix-wiki: kim_, I've done it

kim_: Ok, so now "what needs to be attained" ?

Phoenix-wiki: he wasn't in trouble

Phoenix-wiki: wel he was

Xavexgoem: Has he figured out refs yet?

Texas_Patriot: I don't see an editor on editor conflict, it's a general community involvement. Since the quality of the article is in question from the statement being argued.

Phoenix-wiki: everyone thought he was a stupid asshole

kim_: what needs to happen at Young Earth Creationism?

Phoenix-wiki: so I told him to just create a new account and putthe stuff behind him

Phoenix-wiki: the YEC needs banning

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, *nod*

Sardanaphalus: a stable situation where 47-edit doesn't keep readding their stuff without foundation

kim_: does everyone agree with Sardanaphalus here? :-)

Sardanaphalus: i do ;)

Phoenix-wiki: the guy about the arrow of time needs blocking

Xavexgoem: sure

Xavexgoem: (Sure, Sard)

Sardanaphalus: hey phoenix, maybe they haven't sussed wikiing yet

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, well, this is the young earth creationism article, I don't think we can ban the YEC's ... maybe the arrow guy, but we were AGF-ing ? :-P

Texas_Patriot: Phoenix - Indef?

Phoenix-wiki: no I mean just that guy

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, maybe

Phoenix-wiki: yeah indef

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, can we solve the situation WITHOUT blocking that guy?

*: bob222 (n=Sprat@c-68-32-123-22.hsd1.md.comcast.net) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures

Phoenix-wiki: not really

Sardanaphalus: i think it's possible

kim_: try to figure the LEAST invasive solution

Phoenix-wiki: it would take time

Xavexgoem: Can we operate under the assumption that this guy isn't totally unwhateverable?

Texas_Patriot: The possibility is there, but most things are possible Kim.

Sardanaphalus: it should at least be TRIED dammit

bob222: ok sorta back

Phoenix-wiki: and effort

*: bob222 is now known as Filll2

kim_: this is kinda important if you don't have admin tools in the first place ;-)

Phoenix-wiki: which no one wants to waste

Filll2: oops

Texas_Patriot: Depends on effort needed on one editor due to one small statement being the issue.

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, well, that's harsh

Phoenix-wiki: that particul guy needs a block, though I'd bring it to ANI first

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, and that attitude causes all kinds of trouble down the line

Xavexgoem: I wouldn't be wasting my time were I there...

kim_: So I see we ahve a problem

Sardanaphalus: i'm finding people often come over far worse in typeface than they really are

Filll2: interesting how harsh people are

kim_: some people here do not WANT to Assume Good Faith upfront

Phoenix-wiki: where has it caused trouble?

kim_: Phoenix wants to block

kim_: who else?

Sardanaphalus: no, not yet

Filll2: i think

Phoenix-wiki: no he has clearly demonstrated he is not acting in good faith

kim_: Filll, yes, they just stop at step 1, and aren't going to look further!

Sardanaphalus: some people need more than 47 edits to get it

Phoenix-wiki: if he says that WP could be sued

*: Sniperz11 has quit (Connection timed out)

Sardanaphalus: melodrama?

Texas_Patriot: Editors as well.

Xavexgoem: Sard is right: 47 ain't much

Phoenix-wiki: and he added that in 34 times in 2 weeks

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, come on, he's only made 47 edits!

a: indef might be too harsh

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, maybe hes' just clueless! :-)

Phoenix-wiki: yes but he's not acting in good faith

a: a temp block is better IMO

kim_: a: and we're trying to be systematic

Sardanaphalus: i agree 47-edits doesn't sound promising but more chance needed

kim_: but we're stuck at step 1 of the system

Xavexgoem: lotsa people don't, Phoenix :-p

Texas_Patriot: A: Why? We dont want to use cooldown blocks.

Phoenix-wiki: no he'd have been warned millions of times in 2 weeks

Texas_Patriot: 'cooldown'*

kim_: hehehe

kim_: OK!

kim_: ORDER!

Filll2: and what is interesting to me is that the people who complain that Wikipedia is too harsh....have little experience in controversial areas...and when they give their opinion on these AGF Challenge exercises...they are far more harsh than many experienced people

Filll2: The biggest complainers are often the least experienced and the most harsh

kim_: I'm going to try to use just my voice

kim_: rather than the chanop tools to keep the channel at order here ;-)

kim_: Filll2, extremely more harsh in fact

Phoenix-wiki: Guy once said that I had "a bulletproof assumption of good faith"

kim_: I think "block him" is way too premature here

Filll2: yes it is interesting isnt it?

Phoenix-wiki: no

Phoenix-wiki: 2 weeks is a long time

Xavexgoem: Also, assume stupidity not malice

Xavexgoem: which is kind of a corollary, I guess

Filll2: I will not reveal what we did in practice yet

Filll2: haha

Filll2: all of these are based on real situations

Phoenix-wiki: and he would have been brought to ANI already anyway

Sardanaphalus: but 47-edits might not be a consistent regualr editor

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, well, the objective here... is not only to AGF on this dude's part

a: the problem is that most newbies consider WP to be a graffiti wall rather than an encyclopedia

Filll2: I will wait until more have answered...then in a few weeks I will tell what we really did

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, but now that we all became EA members... we have to help him

*: a is now known as Sniperz11

Sniperz11: and I suspect that this guy is the same...

Phoenix-wiki: yes but it says he put in in 34 times in 2 weeks, he had to make 2 edits a day or he would have been blocked per 3 rr already

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, if it's any help, say you get to talk to the 47-edit dude on the phone, and he genuinely sounds like he wants to help out wikipedia, and is asking you what he's doing wrong? :-)

*: Filll3 has quit (No route to host)

Sardanaphalus: hmm okay

Phoenix-wiki: in that case

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, 99% of the time when I've called someone, they turn out to be that way

Filll2: Many of these cases violate 3RR for days on end with no consequences

Filll2: because we try not to BITE

Phoenix-wiki: tell him it's not sensible to mention sueing of the 'pedia

Phoenix-wiki: and that things need references

Xavexgoem: Do NOT tell him about sueing

kim_: Ok

kim_: alright

Phoenix-wiki: Qst, I'd like to hear your opninion

kim_: right

kim_: just to be sure

Sardanaphalus: the sueing stuff sounds so melodramatic (sp?) i'd just ignore (but not forget) it

Xavexgoem: yeah

Phoenix-wiki: do you guys read ANI much?

kim_: we're on step 1 "The action you would like to take, and a personal reason why you are in support of that action.", subquestion "what's your gut feeling"

kim_: :-P

Sardanaphalus: must admit no

Phoenix-wiki: have a look now

Qst: Phoenix-wiki: On what, exactly?

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, not today thank you

Phoenix-wiki: moso much fighting

kim_: we'd like to move along

Phoenix-wiki: kk next question

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Sardanaphalus: okay, more Qst?

Qst: More what?

kim_: ok # who is involved

Qst: Sorry, I've been AFK and missed this

kim_: Sardanaphalus, already answered... some others need to catch up :-)

Sardanaphalus: okay no prob

Phoenix-wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Filll/AGF_Challenge#Arrow_of_Time

Sniperz11: this is too chaotic

kim_: RIGHT

Phoenix-wiki: Qst, your opnion on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Filll/AGF_Challenge#Arrow_of_Time

kim_: OK

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, quiet please

kim_: QUIET! :-)

Sniperz11: everyones talking together.. one at a time plz. Kim moderate plz.

kim_: Thank you :-)

kim_: Moderating now!

Sniperz11: thanks

kim_: Sniperz11, hush :-P

kim_: alright

kim_: so ... 1 answer per person ... who is involved in the Arrow of time case?

kim_: Sardanaphalus, you can just copy-paste your earlier answer ;-)

Filll2: Wow Qst is here

Xavexgoem: A presumably salvagable character and a bunch of other tolerating folks

Phoenix-wiki: can we do http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Filll/AGF_Challenge#I_make_my_own_rules next?

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, yes... good plan, but first this step :-)

Phoenix-wiki: kk

Qst: Well, its probably best to explain to hi (again) that Wikipedia needs reliable references to back such claims up (more than one, if available) and that he cannot enter such theories which may be only his personal beliefs in to a fact-based encyclopedia

*: Filll has quit (No route to host)

kim_: Ok, I think we got the answer from Xavexgoem ... anyone else have additions?

Sardanaphalus: good idea, "the 47-edit guy and the other editors on the talk page"

Qst: to him, sorry **

Texas_Patriot: 47 Edit Editor, and the general community of people on the talk page who are active.

Phoenix-wiki: yeah that cleared up, next part

kim_: Ok... I think that that's all we can surmise here

kim_: :-)

Sardanaphalus: they are the active people involved anyway

Sardanaphalus: okay

Qst: What is the next part?

*: Xavexgoem is now known as Xav

Phoenix-wiki: Qst, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions

kim_: so the next question : "# what needs to be attained"

kim_: what are we trying to have happen on the Young Earth Creationism page?

Sardanaphalus: copypasting...

Phoenix-wiki: we need it to become stable

Qst: Do I tell the answers here?

kim_: one answer per person again... else it gets too crowded :-)

Xav: Consensus is against his addition, even ref'd, so... That has to go

Phoenix-wiki: nobody editing

Phoenix-wiki: Qst, yes

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kim_: Qst, we're doing answers here :-)

Sardanaphalus: "a stable situation where 47-edit doesn't keep readding their stuff without foundation"

kim_: Ok

Phoenix-wiki: everyon involved needs to stop editing the main page, and be ready to discuss things on the talk

kim_: Continuing on Xav: perhaps the 47 edit guy can add elsewhere (like at time cube? )

[AGK|away]: Back, folks.

*: [AGK|away] is now known as [AGK]

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, that's actually broken ...

Xav: That'd be my suggestion

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, that's just procedure... what needs to HAPEN :-)

Xav: But not Time Cube, per se

Phoenix-wiki: that needs to happen

kim_: Xav, just someplace... to be determined?

Xav: Ask what his interests are

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, no, then the page will be protected on the wrong version ;-)

Phoenix-wiki: he neds to stop editing that page

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, that's all?

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, and what can he do instead?

Phoenix-wiki: talk on talk page

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, so not everyone, just him?

Phoenix-wiki: discuss

Phoenix-wiki: everyone involved

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, maybe...

Sardanaphalus: it might just be redirecting 47-edit's hevay-handed editing to another article, but try to interest him/her in a more time-related topic might work?

Xav: that's prejudicial, imo

Phoenix-wiki: some ip who wants to do a typo can still edit

Xav: wouldn't make him happy at all

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, that's all very nice... but what must he ACHIEVE with discussion. discussion is not an objective, it's merely a means

Phoenix-wiki: oh

Phoenix-wiki: he needs to find reliable references for his info, or leave it out

kim_: Sardanaphalus, Possibly... maybe we need to teach him better editing? :-) Suggest 1 page? :-)

Phoenix-wiki: and not mention sueing WP

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, that sounds like a plan

kim_: ok, so we now all have a bit of an idea what we'd like to achieve

Phoenix-wiki: what's the best outcome for the encyclopedia?

kim_: Next question: what's the best outcome for the encyclopedia?

kim_: :-)

kim_: :-)

kim_: Exactly

Xav: how important is it to get his edits out NOW? There's a chance he'll go at it, but edit warring over a single guy sounds bad. Maybe

Phoenix-wiki: lol

kim_: one answer per person first :-)

Xav: nvm

Xav: heh

Phoenix-wiki: what's the best outcome for the encyclopedia?

Sardanaphalus: peace, tranquility and accuracy

Xav: ^^ him

kim_: Sardanaphalus, Right... now applied to this situation? :-)

Phoenix-wiki: the best outcome is that his thing is left out if can;t find refs

Phoenix-wiki: or

Phoenix-wiki: if he can

Sardanaphalus: 47-edit's stuff is either there with refs or left out, yes

Xav: there are many best outcomes, too

Sniperz11: if we get him actively talking to the other editors, that will be a start

Phoenix-wiki: then include it

Xav: (well, good ones)

Sardanaphalus: yes, decent refs

Sniperz11: the end result would be his understanding and agreement with WP:RS policy

Phoenix-wiki: yes

Phoenix-wiki: agreed

Phoenix-wiki: next question

Sniperz11: once he agrees that RS is impt, problem solved

Xav: applied: ask him what his interests are; ignore the edit war and uncited stuff atm

Sardanaphalus: (another opportunity for trouble tho i guess

Xav: append :-) Kim Bruning (talk) 22:21, 13 April 2008 (UTC) at the end

Phoenix-wiki: how can that outcome be attained?

kim_: Xav, :-P

Phoenix-wiki: well

kim_: Xav, have you been stalking me? ;-)

Xav: sorta

Xav: but not really

Phoenix-wiki: how can that outcome be attained?

*: Texas_Patriot goes afk

kim_: Xav, :-P

Sardanaphalus: even if the first step moves the problem from the stuff to how decent the refs might be, that's progress, no?

Xav: just the :-) thing (all I learned was the hyphen is important)

Phoenix-wiki: keep reverting him untill he confirms he's read RS and actually found refs

Phoenix-wiki: agree?

Xav: No.

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, Oh, you're totally mean... How about contacting him? ;-)

Sniperz11: it hasn't worked till now

Xav: Reverting escalates the problem

Sardanaphalus: agreed

Phoenix-wiki: yes this would be while talking on the talk page

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, if you do that, I will report you for 3RR ;-)

Phoenix-wiki: but he can't keep adding in

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, someone else breaking the rules doesn't excuse you doing the same :)

Phoenix-wiki: he would reach 3 rr b4 me

Sardanaphalus: hmm sounds like gaming the system thing

Phoenix-wiki: and I would just get someoen from irc to revert for me when I reached 2

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, now you're gaming the system... which is covered somewhere, but probably will get you a site-ban in the end ;-)

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, and THAT would re-open the IRC RFAr if anyone ever found you out ;-)

Phoenix-wiki: no stuff with no ref in contraversial topics can be removed

Phoenix-wiki: with no fear of 3 rr

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, is that so?

Sardanaphalus: phoenix, the dodgy text might need to stay there for a day or three while people try to communicate with 47-edit

Phoenix-wiki: it happens routinely on Evolution

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, I thought that was only for BLP, and controversial at that :-P

Xav: 3RR is a stop-gap against being being a dick, not against reverting dicks

Phoenix-wiki: yeah it is

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, I see... that's not quite policy-compliant

Xav: an m:Dick, sorry

Phoenix-wiki: according to policy

Phoenix-wiki: but noone blocks you for it

Phoenix-wiki: even if it is against policy

Xav: (I mean it works for all parties, regardless, no?)

Phoenix-wiki: IAR

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, interesting... ;-)

Phoenix-wiki: you're helping the encyclopedia

Sardanaphalus: cmon all this is beside the point if 47-edit doesn't get a breaktrhough

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, still, that's very dirty... ;-)

Xav: we haven't even gotten to the point where we discuss how he gets a breakthrough (or have we?)

Phoenix-wiki: Xav, am a dick

Phoenix-wiki: I am a dick*

Phoenix-wiki: according to that essay

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, being a dick is against policy ;-)

Phoenix-wiki: then most of us would be indef banned

*: kim_ pokes out tongue ;-)

Xav: I wasn't implying anything personal :-)

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, possibly true!

Phoenix-wiki: no

Sardanaphalus: 47-edit might not genuinely think they're being a dick

Phoenix-wiki: Xav I'm just saying, soz

kim_: Right

Xav: right

kim_: Ok, carrying on ...

Phoenix-wiki: yes but you'd be talking to them on the talk page

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, I'd e-mail them, actually, :-)

Sniperz11: most newbies just think that WP is a nice wall to put graffiti on, and 47E seems like that....

Sardanaphalus: the point is, we need 47-edit to sign up to the wiki way of thinking

*: Texas_Patriot is back

Phoenix-wiki: and the best thing to do would to get them to stop untill they find refs

kim_: Sniperz11, so we need to explain :-)

Xav: Sniperz11: and that's a bad culture, and we can fix that!

kim_: Sardanaphalus, sounds like you've had some experience mediating eh?

Sardanaphalus: it's no good if we go to 47-edit ASSUMING they're okay with it

Sardanaphalus: kim> in real world, sometimes

Phoenix-wiki: I've done loads of medcab

kim_: Sardanaphalus, that's much harder than on-wiki. cool :-)

Sardanaphalus: heh i didn't say how successful

Phoenix-wiki: only 1 went past me

Phoenix-wiki: like, to medcom

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, wow, so I'll ask vassayana to watch you some more :-)

Phoenix-wiki: lol

Phoenix-wiki: but that case is absurd

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, Possibly you're doing ok, but you're way harsh man. ;-)

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, it really happened, apparently (with names and details altered to protect the guilty innocent )

Phoenix-wiki: listen, if he re-added 34 times, despite everyone explaining to him on the talk page he isn't acting in good fait

kim_: alright, we're coming up on halt-time, so let's move along ;-)

Xav: He might not have even SEEN WP:AGF

Xav: 47 is nuthin'

Sardanaphalus: i guess it depends how exactly the message didnt get through 34 times

Phoenix-wiki: yes but people would no doubt have linked him to it

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, need to contact him directly then ;-)

Phoenix-wiki: I was discussing stuff on the VP as my first edit

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, you're superman then ;-)

kim_: :-)

Phoenix-wiki: no pleanty of people have

kim_: True...

kim_: anyway... moving along

*: Phoenix-wiki saw someone who'd never left a back edit summary

kim_: let's see what we can salvage :-)

Qst: Anyone using Skype here?

kim_: so what needs to be done for us to reverse our position ...

Sniperz11: 2 things - 1) he's actually talking, rather than simply silently editing, 2) only 47 edits - he's a newbie and 3) Its obvious he doesn't know WP policies

kim_: Qst, lots are... possibly a future lecture will be on voice on skype

Sniperz11: I'm on skype

Sardanaphalus: how about one of those "noone can edit this article for N days" padlocks

kim_: Sniperz11, where people are talking, there's always hope!

kim_: Sardanaphalus, I hate those :-P

Sardanaphalus: then 47-edit is with everyone else on talkpage

Sardanaphalus: oh okay

Phoenix-wiki: Sniperz47, he's been here 2 weeks, and has replied 13 times on the talk page, he would have been pointed ot the policies

kim_: Sardanaphalus, it might help, or it might turn the talk apge into a pressure-stove

Xav: Sard: the problem is everyone else who wants to contribute, and 47-edit will know exactly why it's locked, and might escalate

Sardanaphalus: i can imagine, i'm not sying i'm keen on them

Sardanaphalus: okay, i see

kim_: what I'd do is ask 47-edit dude to not edit for a bit and talk with me first :-)

Sardanaphalus: good point

kim_: possibly they would :-)

kim_: alright

kim_: so we're currently all agf

kim_: we'll ask others to be nice to 47-dude as well (I missed that)

kim_: and we talk with him first...

Xav: You could do something strange, like get a bunch of good faith folks to concoct a message on his talk page, trying to move things there

kim_: so what would need to be said or done to reverse that position

Phoenix-wiki: and the first thing you see when you create an account is "There's no need to worry about the policies, if it helps improe the encyclopedia it's okay", he knows full well he's not helping by readding it when people want to discuss it with him

Xav: but that's me thinking out loud.

Phoenix-wiki: the first few times, that's okay

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, that's what we explain to him ;-)

Xav: does he understand why discussion is important on WP?

Phoenix-wiki: but 32 times over 2 weeks?

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, right, so you get to answer why we would change our position ...

Phoenix-wiki: and if he did it exactly twice a day, that implies he's familier with 3RR

Sardanaphalus: yes, i remember thinking when i first saw the "Ignore all rules" page soon after getting into wikipedia how it could backfire

Phoenix-wiki: and he's gaming the system

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, dude, DONE... we're at question 2 now :-)

Phoenix-wiki: oh

Sardanaphalus: "What would theoretically needs to be said or done to make you reverse that position, or where you would be willing to compromise"

Xav: (2. What would theoretically needs to be said or done to make you reverse that position, or where you would be willing to compromise)

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, if someone keeps talking about question 1a all the time, despite the channel moderator continuously telling him to move on. Is that obviously bad faith?

Sardanaphalus: hehe

Xav: jinx

Phoenix-wiki: no

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, just stupidity, right?

Phoenix-wiki: yes

Sardanaphalus: anyway, is it okay to go onto 2. now?

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, glad we agree :-)

kim_: Sardanaphalus, C

kim_: kay :-)

Phoenix-wiki: [17:19]	*ChanServ*	The channel [#wikipedia-en-lectures] is not registered ???

*: Filll has quit (Connection timed out)

Phoenix-wiki: wwhy not?

Sardanaphalus: so, by reverse, does that mean let 47-edit go on with their behavior??

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, next time.

Phoenix-wiki: no

kim_: Sardanaphalus, By reverse, I think we mean that we should block 47-edit anyway

Sardanaphalus: i'll read that bit again

kim_: Sardanaphalus, well, they're generic questions...

Xav: Does he understand what he's doing wrong?

Phoenix-wiki: yes

Phoenix-wiki: he clearly does

kim_: Xav, we'll need to ask him :-)

Xav: I'm not convinced

Phoenix-wiki: so I don't think anyone can change my position

kim_: Xav, that's covered in the mediator approach at the bottom

Sardanaphalus: okay, if your position = block, what would change your mind - is that theq?

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, ever?

Xav: I'm confused by mediator approach, it says talk page and stuff. I'm wondering if you meant mediators here should participate differently, or what?

Phoenix-wiki: kim_, possibly

kim_: Sardanaphalus, more like if your position is help him (which should be your initial position as a mediator or EA role anyway)

Xav: Phoenix-wiki, can you beyond reasonable doubt assume he Will. Not. Change?

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, you would be un-mediatable then

kim_: Sardanaphalus, what'd convince you to block

kim_: or in the case of phoenix, what would convince him not to

Sardanaphalus: well i guess i would change my mind if i and people had tried some more-than-usual ways to get thru but no joy

Sardanaphalus: um if that makes sense

Phoenix-wiki: Xav, who?

kim_: Sardanaphalus, it does

Phoenix-wiki: I thought change *my* position?

Xav: 47-edit

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, you need to know when to hold'em and when to fold 'em and when to walk away

Sardanaphalus: the question's relative, phoenix, that's what i misunderstood

*: Phoenix-wiki plays poker a lot

Sardanaphalus: flop

Phoenix-wiki: oh what he needs to do

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, so when would you do the latter? :-)

Phoenix-wiki: oh

Xav: we're not even at river

Phoenix-wiki: if he finds referenes

Phoenix-wiki: if he fids references, that's okay then

Phoenix-wiki: finds*

kim_: Ok!

kim_: next question

Sniperz11: thank you!!

kim_: why do you think your position will gain consensus?

kim_: :-)

kim_: or why should others agree with your position

Sardanaphalus: because it AGF!!

kim_: 1 answer per person again, I guess :-)

Xav: They apparently already do

Phoenix-wiki: because it's complying with policies and benifitting the 'pedia the most

kim_: heh, that's easy then

Sardanaphalus: ya

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, that's not a complete answer. once again.. complying with policies and benefitting wikipedia are a means, but what's the goal?

kim_: well benefitting wikipedia is a goal, but that's too general

kim_: can you be more specific?

Sardanaphalus: mine is a bit too vague then too

kim_: Sardanaphalus, merely AGF might not be enough too... :-)

kim_: *nod*

Phoenix-wiki: I've made the article as accurate as it can be

Phoenix-wiki: by removing unreferenced material

Xav: I thought he referenced it?

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, fair enough. Can you also help others become better at editing with your approach?

Sardanaphalus: hmm why isn't Phoenix's answer enough?

Phoenix-wiki: and I've also informed the user of various policies on the talk page

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, so you've educated them

Sardanaphalus: oh okay, i get it

Phoenix-wiki: yes

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, did you tell them WHY the policies apply?

kim_: :-)

kim_: Phoenix-wiki, do you think they get it?

Phoenix-wiki: yes

kim_: those are questions to ask when you try to educate someone :-)

kim_: fair enough

Sardanaphalus: are u usually an educator, kim?

kim_: Sardanaphalus, mediator-type-person... what's the difference ;-)

kim_: on-wiki anway :-)

Sardanaphalus: indeed

Phoenix-wiki: next question?

kim_: ok

kim_: so when would the community back away from that position?

Phoenix-wiki: back away from it?

Xav: He could go on with the legal threats

kim_: like they would support you

kim_: but what would make them change their minds?

Sardanaphalus: specify the position to discuss pls

Phoenix-wiki: oh

kim_: Sardanaphalus, the one you formulated above... why would they support you?

Sardanaphalus: okay..

Phoenix-wiki: well I've made the article as accurate as it can be, and instructed a user on various policies

Phoenix-wiki: they would agree with this

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Xav: (3 or 4?)

Filll: back

kim_: Sardanaphalus, it's symmetrical ... what do you want to do and why <-> when would you drop that position ... what does the community want and why <-> when would they drop it

Filll: haha

kim_: Xav, we're at 4

kim_: wb Filll

Filll: good thing you are going to keep a record

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Filll: i can see what I missed

Sardanaphalus: i guess the community would support whichever approach it thought would leave the best test intact

Sardanaphalus: text*

kim_: best text

Sardanaphalus: yup

Phoenix-wiki: yes

kim_: so basically if our friend showed up with refs, they'd go one way

Phoenix-wiki: and the best text is the referenced text

Sardanaphalus: with bonus of bringing someone like 47-edit on board

kim_: and if he didn't show up with refs... they'd go the other way

Phoenix-wiki: yeah

kim_: Sardanaphalus, You're on the ball ;-)

kim_: Ok

Sardanaphalus: yay

kim_: so we can't really do the mediator role here

Phoenix-wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Filll/AGF_Challenge#I_make_my_own_rules ext

kim_: we've answered all the questions

kim_: now we actually do the doing bit

Sardanaphalus: dammit, i suddenly remembered, i gotta go, it's half past

Sniperz11: of course, the question when he does bring refs will turn to RS

Phoenix-wiki: 5:30

kim_: could each of you list the talk page statement you'd make?

kim_: Yup

kim_: 30 minutes for next one

Sardanaphalus: i'll read the transcript to see what happens

kim_: Sardanaphalus, Ok, have a nice day! Nice to have you!

Xav: Cya Sard

Sardanaphalus: thanks, it was interesting, bye!!

Xav: anaphalus

kim_: If you are an admin, or BOLD editor, or what have you...

kim_:    * write on the talk page:

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kim_: basically formulate on the talk page

Xav: the hypothetical talk page, or the actual one? :-p

kim_: Xav, hypotehtical! ;-)

kim_: we've answered the 4 questions for ourselves, now we need to state them on talk

Xav: that'd be a lot of threads, though. What do you mean what should I say?

kim_: that's where the tire-hits the road

Xav: (that'd work on iRC)

kim_: yeah we're taking several steps

Xav: oh

kim_: Xav, just paraphrase then :-)

kim_: hmmm

Phoenix-wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Phoenix-wiki&diff=prev&oldid=205155232

Xav: So we've gone through the scenario... you want me to innact it?

Texas_Patriot: Oh natural Phoenix.

Xav: 47: Grr! Rawr! Other people: Sorry we reverted you :-( 47: Law suits, but not really! Other people: Umm...

kim_: "I'd like to invite User:47editdude to stop editing here and talk with me first ... unless he does something really crazy ... I think other people will support that, so they can get on with editing, and we'll try to solve User47's problems separately. If 47dude keeps making trouble, of course I'd support banning"

kim_: something like that?

kim_: :-)

kim_: alright

kim_: I'm going to get some tea, and then next scenario :-)

Phoenix-wiki: quit

*: Xav thinks

*: Phoenix-wiki has quit ("Connection not reset by Peer - http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Peer")

kim_: Poor Phoenix... that sucks ^^;;

kim_: Ok

Xav: And I have no context! This is hard...

Xav: ...as a mediator

*: kim_ has changed the topic to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions  ... Next scenario ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Filll/AGF_Challenge#I_make_my_own_rules

Xav: Vernacular can be soo important.

kim_: does everyone agree with that one?

Filll: ah yes

Filll: that is a good one

kim_: Ok, 5 minute break, then we continue on that

*: kim_ needs 5 minutes :-P

Filll: the person that is about recognized the exercise I think

Filll: he is annoyed at me for making him an exercise

kim_: Filll, poor guy!

Filll: oh wel

Filll: haha

Filll: it was like 2 years ago

*: Xav thinks he knows who this guy is, but 2 year comment means probably not

Xav: I like it

Xav: scenario

Filll: i wont reveal it..at least not yet...and not in public probably

Filll: i dont wanna embarass him

Xav: Can someone decide unilaterally? No.

Filll: but it really happened

Filll: and he welcomed everyone new with his own welcoming message and own policies

Filll: which were not the same as the regular policies

Filll: haha

Xav: Erm... I'd probably let the horde take care of his revisions :-p

Filll: his revised policies still exist

kim_: Filll, Cool!

Filll: and you can still read them

kim_: :-)

kim_: I might want to ;-)

Filll: they are off wiki now though

kim_: they should have remained in the public record

Sniperz11: were they atleast halfway sane??

Filll: I would have to look them up

kim_: fair deal

Xav: Ooh, were these "policies" in userspace or something?

kim_: ok

*: kim_ takes a deep breath

Filll: but they are at the Raymond arritt expert withdrawal pages as a link

kim_: 20 more minutes

Filll: but you have to look at a lot of material to find it

kim_: and we're done for the day

kim_: alright

kim_: this new scenario

kim_: let's speed things up

kim_: normally you'd do all 4 questions more quickly too... we just took our time today

Texas_Patriot: Contact the user, let him know that he can propose an alteration or new policy, but altering or simply making his own is disruptive to the community. And ask him to remove them and go through the correct process. If he refuses, offer to open a cabal mediation.

Filll: anyone is welcome to do these on their own...by multiple choice, or essay answer or anonymously

kim_: Texas_Patriot, actually, you can alter or make your own policy, it's "What I Do" now ;-)

kim_: Ok

kim_: Texas_Patriot, but that's your answer to question 1 ? :-)

[AGK]: kim_: how much longer will your lectures last?

kim_: 19 more minutes today

kim_: we started for real at 17:30

kim_: and 1:30 (2* 45 minutes) is reasonable

Texas_Patriot: Question 1?

kim_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions

kim_: 1.The action you would like to take, and a personal reason why you are in support of that action.

kim_: 2. What would theoretically needs to be said or done to make you reverse that position, or where you would be willing to compromise

kim_: 3. A reason why you think others (will) support that position (ie, why is this likely to gain consensus).

Xav: My action: Be polite, inform him of what policy really is (Vassyana's principles essay, or something), gut feeling is he thinks he'll lawyer a way out of it (ironically), everyone is involved, he needs to stop, he needs to stop, be polite and inform him at first (by bullet points)

Texas_Patriot: Yes, I had that open, along with a few other windows, thanks for clarifying.

Qst: Fill: Did you try to add me on skype?

kim_: 4. What likely would need to be said or done to reverse the position of the community. , or where the community might be willing to compromise

Filll: i did qst

Filll: just clickyes

kim_: Xav, alright... and what would be needed to change your approach?

Xav: Oh. First be polite and tell him WHY he should stop (pref, without ever saying stop), and I support this action cuz it's right

kim_: Xav, it's "right" ... why is it right?

*: kim_ actually disagrees with everyone who thinks they should tell this guy to stop ... ;-)

kim_: The part I'd ask him to stop with is posting welcomes to newbies

kim_: :-)

Xav: Well, change his method at any rate

Xav: But giving people false policies isn't good

Texas_Patriot: Just about to say that part honestly Kim.

kim_: who says they're false? :-)

Sniperz11: arbcomm

Xav: Mostly everyone; I'm being pragmatic. I'm pretty inclusionist myself...

kim_: "can someone decide to unilaterally design their own policy statements?"

kim_: WP:CCC Wp:BOLD <- YES! ;-)

Sniperz11: wouldn't that be an oxymoron??

kim_: However, if he tells other people that this is how wikipedia works, to new users...

kim_: well ...

Sniperz11: since the WP Rules are "created by the community" through consensus and general agreement?

kim_: how does he know so sure :-)

kim_: Sniperz11, wikipedia doesn't have firm rules ;-)

Xav: well, sure, they can TRY. But I know this didn't work the way he intended from the outset (changing policy unilaterally)

Texas_Patriot: There are policies that are widely accepted among editors, then there are the user ones...

kim_: WP:IAR ;-)

kim_: Xav, exactly

kim_: he isn't doing what he thinks he's doing ;-)

*: kim_ snickers

Xav: Ugh. Turning on koan module.

Filll: I might even convince this gentleman to join us in IRC

kim_: Xav, ROTFL! ;-)

Filll: he might come anonymously though

Sniperz11: lol

kim_: that'd be fun

kim_: for after the lecture

kim_: ;-)

Filll: as a special guest

Filll: yep

kim_: which is 13 minutes from now

kim_: tell you what

Filll: he has VERY strong feelings about this

kim_: let's close a little early

Filll: haha

Filll: well he isnt on right now

Filll: but I will work on him

kim_: Ok

kim_: We've walked through one of Fillls scenarios

kim_: and we've asked 4 basic questions

Xav: I like these scenarios.

kim_: 1. what would you do

kim_: 2. what would you compromise on

kim_: 3. what would the community do

kim_: 4. what can the community compromise on

kim_: if you know the answers to these four questions

kim_: odds are, you will be able to convince the community to support your actions

kim_: Because it's not enough to know what you're going to do

kim_: and to do what you think is right

kim_: wikipedia is run by consensus

kim_: you need to convince other people to support your actions

kim_: else you will end up countered, reverted, or blocked

kim_: these 4 questions are not all you need to do, but they're a good framework :-)

kim_: So I hope you'll use them each time.

Xav: "He's not doing what he thinks he's doing" WTF? (yes, I know no HTML tags)

kim_: And Fillls AGF situations are a good exercise ;-)

kim_: So please everyone try to answer them in the way you've learned today

Xav: Oh, that makes sense suddenly. Durr.

kim_: and send your answers to Filll ... he's doing research, and you will help science by doing it ;-)

kim_: Xav, He thinks he's changing policy... while in reality he's writing pages :-)

Filll: yes we want to compile a nice sampling of answers

Xav: yup

Filll: and then in a few weeks

Filll: i will reveal what really happened

Filll: in each of tehse cases

Filll: and give some new exercises

Xav: cool! :-D

Filll: I hope I can get as many as possible from those who complain about how Wikipedia handles difficult situations to weigh in

Xav: I sure hope you don't expect concise answers :-p

Filll: since it is easy to criticize in the abstract..but what does one do in a concrete situation?

kim_: Filll, But here you're getting answers from people learning how to make the wiki work for them :-)

Filll: no of course not

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kim_: wb Fill2

Filll2: and sometimes one has to do something quite complicated

kim_: Ok

Filll2: Durova answered one

Filll2: verbally

kim_: :-)

Filll2: and gave a very very long and detailed answer

Filll2: very sophisticated

Filll2: since she has a LOT of experience in dealing with difficult situations

SteveCrossin3: is durova online? :)

kim_: She's cool on skype :-)

Filll2: no not right now

Filll2: it is early where she is

SteveCrossin3: :/

Filll2: somewhat

Sniperz11: speakin of skype...

Sniperz11: who here is on it?

Xav: I just got it. It's nice.

kim_: Right

kim_: just before we get into that... Lecture Over For Today

kim_: END

kim_: or some such

kim_: Alright

kim_: Feel free to discuss whatever ... I'm not moderating anymore :-)

*: kim_ puts down my hat

Sniperz11: is this off the log then from now on???

kim_: So Sniperz11 was asking who is on skype?

kim_: Sniperz11, this channel remains logged... do take that into account :-)

*: kim_ has changed the topic to: lecture over. Channel still logged. :-)

Xav: Let's form a secret cabal dedicated to taking over wikipedia!

Sniperz11: hehe

Xav: JOKING ZOMG

kim_: Xav, be careful

Xav: (sorry)

Sniperz11: i'm on skype, if anyone wants to add me

Sniperz11: same username.

Xav: I /am/ kidding :-)

kim_: Xav, once someone said "it won't let you delete the main page ... try it"  on  -en-admins

Xav: haha, I saw the AN/I :-D

kim_: "Sorry, just kidding!"

kim_: right after

kim_: very very oops :-P

kim_: alright

kim_: now I needed to talk with ... AGK about a skype session

kim_: Did everyone learn something from todays lecture? :_)

Xav: 1,2,3,4

Sniperz11: yes... ignore ALL rules

kim_: Sniperz11,

kim_: Sniperz11, yes you may do that... but what's the caveat to that? ;-)

kim_: Xav: Cool

*: Sniperz11 is still figuring that out

kim_: Sniperz11, you need to always be improving the wikipedia

kim_: the rules are there to advise you on how to do that

Sniperz11: yes

Sniperz11: just a question here for everyone, show of hands....

Sniperz11: are u an inclusionist or a deletionist?

Xav: I'm that one with the really long acronym bordering on inclusionist

*: SteveCrossin3 is now known as SteveCrosisn

kim_: but if you have to chose between improving wikipedia, or following the rules

kim_: improve wiki is first

*: SteveCrosisn is now known as SteveCrossin

kim_: I gotta talk about arranging a voice lecture next time

Sniperz11: good point Kim.

kim_: TTYL

Qst: Filll: mind a pm?

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Filll2: yes on skype

Filll2: send me on

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Xav: kim_

Xav: I need access to chat, so I can sort this damn chat thing out

Xav: Is there a respective chat?

Xav: wrong chat thinger

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*: Notify: Vassyana is online (kubrick.freenode.net).

Xav: kim_ is there a respective chat for that conference?

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kim_bruning: Vassyana, hello here some more

kim_bruning: POKE

Sniperz11: whats goin on now?

kim_bruning: Just gonna introduce Vassyana and Filll

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*: kim_ pokes Vassyana some more

kim_: guess he's got some issues

Python: interface unloaded