Wikipedia:Lectures/Lecture4-log

Timestamps are CEST (UTC +2), NTP synchronized. Because that's the time zone I live in. :-)

People start showing up around 17:00 (15:00 UTC, the advertised time.), but actual lectures always start at around 17:30 (15:30 UTC). We reckon 30 minutes setup time, to make sure everyone is there and everything is working, etc.


 * BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Apr 27 16:51:46 2008

Apr 27 16:51:46 *	Now talking on #wikipedia-en-lectures Apr 27 16:51:48 *	Notify: henna is online (FreeNode). Apr 27 16:51:48 *	Notify: gerardm is online (FreeNode). Apr 27 16:51:50 	quiet here Apr 27 16:52:07 	not a good sign, that Apr 27 16:52:16 	we can go around advertising again? Apr 27 17:03:08 *	Sardanaphalus (n=chatzill@96.96-84-212.ippool.ndo.com) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures Apr 27 17:03:18 	hi! Apr 27 17:03:24 	I think Grey Knight vanished... Apr 27 17:03:26 	hi Apr 27 17:03:32 	are you on Skype? Apr 27 17:03:38 	nope, sorry Apr 27 17:03:45 	will that be a prob? Apr 27 17:03:51 	dunno Apr 27 17:05:05 	kim_ ^^ Apr 27 17:06:35 	i'm guessing it probably will -- talking and typing at same time?? Apr 27 17:06:58 	Heya! Apr 27 17:07:05 	We may need to do talk on irc Apr 27 17:07:17 *	You are now known as kim_bruning Apr 27 17:07:23 *	ChanServ gives voice to kim_bruning Apr 27 17:07:35 	you mean no skype? Apr 27 17:11:19 *	maximr|away (n=chatzill@unaffiliated/maximr2) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures Apr 27 17:12:04 	well, if there's lots of people not=on-skype Apr 27 17:12:07 	we'll do it on irc Apr 27 17:12:15 	which I'm totally ok with Apr 27 17:12:21 	and also rather less nervous about actually :-) Apr 27 17:13:26 	okay, will standby Apr 27 17:13:52 	heh Apr 27 17:16:31 *	Thehelpfulone2 (n=Helper@unaffiliated/thehelpfulone) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures Apr 27 17:16:37 <Thehelpfulone2>	what's this channel about? :D Apr 27 17:16:47 *	SteveCrossin (n=stevenc2@unaffiliated/stevecrossin) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures Apr 27 17:16:56 <kim_bruning>	today it's about how to make friends and influence wikis :-) Apr 27 17:17:03 <SteveCrossin>	heh Apr 27 17:17:11 <SteveCrossin>	i have 5 wikis ;) Apr 27 17:17:18 <kim_bruning>	going to be talking about consensus and how to use it to get your way with it Apr 27 17:17:24 <kim_bruning>	(to a fair extent anyway) Apr 27 17:17:29 <SteveCrossin>	btw Apr 27 17:17:31 <SteveCrossin>	http://travelguidewiki.scribblewiki.com/Template:ScribbleWiki:_Travel_Guide_Wiki:Requests_for_adminship/Cro0016 Apr 27 17:17:35 <kim_bruning>	Lectures Apr 27 17:17:40 <SteveCrossin>	>90mins Apr 27 17:17:41 *	microchip08 (n=Microchi@<IP removed>) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures Apr 27 17:17:48 	o_O Apr 27 17:17:54 *	#wikipedia-en-lectures :You need to be a channel operator to do that Apr 27 17:17:54 <Sardanaphalus>	travelguidewiki? Apr 27 17:17:54 <SteveCrossin>	O_o Apr 27 17:17:57 <SteveCrossin>	yer Apr 27 17:18:00 *	#wikipedia-en-lectures :You need to be a channel operator to do that Apr 27 17:18:00 	No topic. How dare he? Apr 27 17:18:04 <kim_bruning>	oops Apr 27 17:18:11 <Sardanaphalus>	spam alert? Apr 27 17:18:13 >chanserv<	op #wikipedia-en-lectures Apr 27 17:18:14 *	ChanServ gives channel operator status to kim_bruning Apr 27 17:18:18 <SteveCrossin>	gah' Apr 27 17:18:20 *	kim_bruning has changed the topic to: How to make friends and influence wikis. Lectures Apr 27 17:18:29 <SteveCrossin>	not spam Apr 27 17:18:32 *	kim_bruning gives voice to kim_bruning Apr 27 17:18:35 *	kim_bruning removes channel operator status from kim_bruning Apr 27 17:18:40 <Sardanaphalus>	okay Apr 27 17:18:54 <Sardanaphalus>	"How to make wikis and influence friends" Apr 27 17:18:55 *	SteveCrossin wishes it would auto-sysop him after the rfa closes Apr 27 17:19:14 <kim_bruning>	RPTF: Apr 27 17:19:30 <Sardanaphalus>	"How to make fiends and inflame wikis"? Apr 27 17:19:37 *	microchip08 just blocked a load of people on the test wiki... :-) Apr 27 17:19:37 <SteveCrossin>	lol Apr 27 17:19:53 <SteveCrossin>	TGW has a troll at the moment Apr 27 17:19:55 <kim_bruning>	Sardanphalus: want me to discuss that too? Apr 27 17:20:02 <kim_bruning>	Oh I could sit upstairs! Apr 27 17:20:02 <SteveCrossin>	all pages are full protected Apr 27 17:20:02 <Sardanaphalus>	"How to inference friends and mock wikis" Apr 27 17:20:07 <kim_bruning>	well, I'll stick around here Apr 27 17:20:09 <SteveCrossin>	add vandalism Apr 27 17:20:12 <SteveCrossin>	to the topic Apr 27 17:20:13 <kim_bruning>	Sardanaphalus, all that, and more! Apr 27 17:20:16 <SteveCrossin>	:) Apr 27 17:20:17 <Sardanaphalus>	wow Apr 27 17:20:20 <kim_bruning>	we're starting in 10 minutes :-) Apr 27 17:20:24 <SteveCrossin>	as in anti-vandalism Apr 27 17:20:29 <SteveCrossin>	not pro vandalism Apr 27 17:20:30 <SteveCrossin>	:P Apr 27 17:20:46 <Sardanaphalus>	okay, i'll pay more attention then, getting a drink right now Apr 27 17:20:57 <SteveCrossin>	please kim Apr 27 17:21:11 <SteveCrossin>	its the only real thing i have a good knowledge on Apr 27 17:21:13 <SteveCrossin>	ohhhh Apr 27 17:21:14 <SteveCrossin>	also Apr 27 17:21:27 <SteveCrossin>	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Editor_review/Steve_Crossin Apr 27 17:21:30 <SteveCrossin>	:) Apr 27 17:21:41 <SteveCrossin>	but yea Kim Apr 27 17:21:44 <Sardanaphalus>	dont wait for me, "i'll be barck" Apr 27 17:21:46 <SteveCrossin>	can wetalk about it Apr 27 17:21:56 <kim_bruning>	Can anyone edit User talk:DGG ? Apr 27 17:22:18 	yes Apr 27 17:25:16 	spammed Apr 27 17:25:42 <SteveCrossin>	kim plz Apr 27 17:25:45 <SteveCrossin>	:-) Apr 27 17:26:44 <kim_bruning>	tnks? Apr 27 17:26:46 <kim_bruning>	wtf? Apr 27 17:26:52 <kim_bruning>	sup? Apr 27 17:27:18 <kim_bruning>	Okay Apr 27 17:27:25 <kim_bruning>	this looks to be everyone joining today Apr 27 17:27:35 <SteveCrossin>	no rly, its something i know about Apr 27 17:27:38 <SteveCrossin>	the rest Apr 27 17:27:44 <SteveCrossin>	im crap on :~( Apr 27 17:28:12 <kim_bruning>	what was it that you're really good at? Apr 27 17:28:21 <Sardanaphalus>	barck Apr 27 17:28:22 *	kim_bruning scrolls back Apr 27 17:28:25 <Sardanaphalus>	bark! Apr 27 17:28:42 <Sardanaphalus>	so, is it skype or irc or both somehow? Apr 27 17:28:58 *	AaronSchulz (n=chatzill@wikipedia/VoiceOfAll) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures Apr 27 17:29:01 *	microchip08 thinks a "The lecture starts in less than 10 minutes" would be a good addition to the /topic Apr 27 17:29:32 	. Apr 27 17:29:38 	In 30 seconds... Apr 27 17:29:38 <Sardanaphalus>	"The lecture starts in 30 seconds" Apr 27 17:29:43 <SteveCrossin>	lol Apr 27 17:29:46 	. Apr 27 17:29:48 <SteveCrossin>	Kim: yes or no? Apr 27 17:29:49 <SteveCrossin>	:) Apr 27 17:29:53 	1 Apr 27 17:29:57 	10 Apr 27 17:30:04 	START! Apr 27 17:30:07 	:-) Apr 27 17:30:08 <Sardanaphalus>	BANG Apr 27 17:30:15 *	microchip08 turns room moderation on Apr 27 17:30:19 <Sardanaphalus>	"The lecture ended abruptly" Apr 27 17:30:38 *	microchip08 awaits for the overdue lecture Apr 27 17:30:48 *	microchip08 sighs Apr 27 17:30:58 	patience? :-p Apr 27 17:31:04 <Sardanaphalus>	it's okay, i still got some other windows open here Apr 27 17:31:10 	No. kim_bruning MUST be on time! Apr 27 17:31:55 *	microchip08 starts pacing Apr 27 17:32:11 <kim_bruning>	I'm here Apr 27 17:32:11 <kim_bruning>	:-) Apr 27 17:32:15 <kim_bruning>	It's not overdue Apr 27 17:32:18 <Thehelpfulone2>	AaronSchulz is VoiceOfAll? :O :) Apr 27 17:32:19 <kim_bruning>	We have 30 minute setup Apr 27 17:32:24 <kim_bruning>	and that's done now Apr 27 17:32:26 <kim_bruning>	Everyone ready? Apr 27 17:32:29 <Sardanaphalus>	microchip's fan broke down, he/she's overheating Apr 27 17:32:39 	... Apr 27 17:32:42 *	microchip08 fizzles Apr 27 17:32:51 <Sardanaphalus>	time for microchip09 Apr 27 17:33:01 <kim_bruning>	Okay Apr 27 17:33:01 *	microchip08 is now known as green_budgie Apr 27 17:33:08 <Sardanaphalus>	any more spares, john? Apr 27 17:33:12 <kim_bruning>	I tried to get until1==2 in here too Apr 27 17:33:13 <kim_bruning>	oh well Apr 27 17:33:14 <Sardanaphalus>	okay Apr 27 17:33:22 *	green_budgie is now known as Microchip08 Apr 27 17:33:46 <kim_bruning>	someone tap Fill on the shoulder too Apr 27 17:33:47 *	SteveCrossin ignored Apr 27 17:33:48 <kim_bruning>	Ok... Apr 27 17:33:54 *	kim_bruning huggles SteveCrossin Apr 27 17:33:55 <SteveCrossin>	*was Apr 27 17:33:57 <kim_bruning>	and let's start ... Apr 27 17:33:59 <kim_bruning>	======= Apr 27 17:34:06 <Microchip08>	Room mod on? Apr 27 17:34:12 <kim_bruning>	Off Apr 27 17:34:16 <kim_bruning>	you get to talk Apr 27 17:34:21 <kim_bruning>	but be nice :-) Apr 27 17:34:24 <kim_bruning>	else I just might :-P Apr 27 17:34:25 *	Microchip08 shuts up Apr 27 17:34:27 <Sardanaphalus>	roger Apr 27 17:34:28 <kim_bruning>	 Apr 27 17:34:33 <AaronSchulz>	roger roger! Apr 27 17:34:46 <kim_bruning>	Alright, when the noise is down to a dull roar :-) Apr 27 17:34:52 <SteveCrossin>	lol Apr 27 17:34:57 <kim_bruning>	So welcome to this 4th lecture in the lectures series Apr 27 17:35:00 *	SteveCrossin roars dully Apr 27 17:35:06 <Microchip08>	Yay! Apr 27 17:35:13 <kim_bruning>	so in last lectures we've been finding our footing Apr 27 17:35:18 <kim_bruning>	and discussing consensus Apr 27 17:35:23 <kim_bruning>	and the dispute resolution system Apr 27 17:35:27 <kim_bruning>	and laying some ground work Apr 27 17:35:46 <kim_bruning>	Today we'll be embracing and extending that model Apr 27 17:35:58 <SteveCrossin>	anything else? Apr 27 17:36:03 <kim_bruning>	and we might also look at some extinguishing Apr 27 17:36:10 <kim_bruning>	SteveCrossin: that's not enough? ;-) Apr 27 17:36:16 <SteveCrossin>	nope Apr 27 17:36:20 <kim_bruning>	LOL Apr 27 17:36:21 *	Microchip08 tells SteveCrossin to shuddup Apr 27 17:36:23 <Sardanaphalus>	okay, i missed the dispute intro but will try keeping up Apr 27 17:36:39 *	SteveCrossin shuts up Apr 27 17:36:48 <kim_bruning>	Ok, we'll also do something even more interesting for SteveCrossing, he gets to make the call after 45 minutes :-) Apr 27 17:36:57 <kim_bruning>	http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Consensus_new_and_old.svg Apr 27 17:37:08 <kim_bruning>	So here's the basic consensus model for folks who missed last lectures Apr 27 17:37:15 <kim_bruning>	there's also translations into other languages now Apr 27 17:37:30 <kim_bruning>	so is everyone familiar with that? Else I'll do a lightning recap Apr 27 17:37:47 *	Microchip08 understands Apr 27 17:37:52 <Sardanaphalus>	dont worry bout me Apr 27 17:37:54 	eeyup Apr 27 17:38:35 <kim_bruning>	Right, just for me to catch my footing then :-) Apr 27 17:38:50 <kim_bruning>	there's 2 loops. Short one was fast (wiki wiki in hawaiian ;-) ) editing Apr 27 17:39:01 <kim_bruning>	long one was slow (lohi lohi in hawaiian ;-) ) editing Apr 27 17:39:06 <kim_bruning>	also the long one is trouble Apr 27 17:39:11 <kim_bruning>	Today... we're gonna make trouble ;-) Apr 27 17:39:24 <kim_bruning>	And then get back out of it :) Apr 27 17:39:53 <kim_bruning>	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BRD Apr 27 17:40:04 <kim_bruning>	So here's the second most misunderstood page on wikipedia ;-) Apr 27 17:40:15 <kim_bruning>	(the most misunderstood is probably WP:POINT :-P ) Apr 27 17:40:25 <kim_bruning>	Take a look at the chart. Apr 27 17:40:26 <SteveCrossin>	HEH Apr 27 17:40:28 <Sardanaphalus>	i like the BRD idea Apr 27 17:40:35 <kim_bruning>	look familiar? Apr 27 17:40:41 <White_Cat>	kim_bruning you any good with svg? Apr 27 17:40:56 <kim_bruning>	White: not as good as I'd like to be Apr 27 17:41:01 <kim_bruning>	drawing charts is tricky :-) Apr 27 17:41:08 <kim_bruning>	I use inkscape Apr 27 17:41:11 <kim_bruning>	alright Apr 27 17:41:12 <White_Cat>	all I need is the addition of transparancy Apr 27 17:41:23 <Sardanaphalus>	must be some decent freeware flowchart programs out there Apr 27 17:41:32 <kim_bruning>	I just use inkscape ;-) Apr 27 17:41:37 <kim_bruning>	though, yes there are Apr 27 17:41:42 <kim_bruning>	but svg is easy to translate Apr 27 17:41:56 <kim_bruning>	anyway, so carrying on... Apr 27 17:42:00 <White_Cat>	http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:8_-_AmStar_7.JPG Apr 27 17:42:05 <White_Cat>	see the ribbon there Apr 27 17:42:12 <White_Cat>	that svg should not have white bg Apr 27 17:42:24 <White_Cat>	same goes for http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Cyanocitta-cristata-004.jpg one Apr 27 17:42:25 <kim_bruning>	White_Cat: Dude, we are not discussing your images today Apr 27 17:42:29 <White_Cat>	its strangely invisible Apr 27 17:42:41 <White_Cat>	oh class was in session? Apr 27 17:42:47 <kim_bruning>	White_Cat, yes Apr 27 17:42:48 <White_Cat>	-_-' Apr 27 17:42:55 <kim_bruning>	Nice kitty :-) Apr 27 17:42:56 *	White_Cat wears a dunce hat and sits in the corner Apr 27 17:43:02 <Sardanaphalus>	okay, it's BRD Apr 27 17:43:08 <kim_bruning>	Right Apr 27 17:43:40 <kim_bruning>	So here's the situation Apr 27 17:43:49 <kim_bruning>	you're going to do something that could potentially be controversial Apr 27 17:44:05 <kim_bruning>	and you don't know who you need to talk to to get it to work Apr 27 17:44:10 <kim_bruning>	you could go on the talk page and ask Apr 27 17:44:18 <kim_bruning>	but there's a bunch of busybodies always on the talk page you see Apr 27 17:44:29 <kim_bruning>	and they might just keep you busy all week Apr 27 17:44:43 <kim_bruning>	and it won't tell you anything about people with WP:OWNership issues Apr 27 17:44:57 <kim_bruning>	or people who desperately need to keep particular content in or out Apr 27 17:44:59 <kim_bruning>	or whatever Apr 27 17:45:05 <Sardanaphalus>	reminds me of the "Don't stuff beans up your nose" page I saw sometime Apr 27 17:45:09 <kim_bruning> Apr 27 17:45:20 <kim_bruning>	cept now we're gonna find people with beans in their noses... Apr 27 17:45:22 <kim_bruning>	or some such ;-) Apr 27 17:45:34 <kim_bruning>	so we can abuse the normal consensus process to actually find people :-) Apr 27 17:45:40 <kim_bruning>	for some value of abuse Apr 27 17:45:49 <kim_bruning>	basically, you make a major change to the page ... Apr 27 17:45:50 <Sardanaphalus>	"in a manner of speaking" Apr 27 17:45:56 <kim_bruning>	and then sit and wait :-) Apr 27 17:46:08 <kim_bruning>	this is, technically ... trolling Apr 27 17:46:14 <kim_bruning>	;-) Apr 27 17:46:19 <Sardanaphalus>	disagree!! Apr 27 17:46:23 <Sardanaphalus>	but go on Apr 27 17:46:24 	works for me! Apr 27 17:46:25 <kim_bruning> Apr 27 17:46:35 <kim_bruning>	well, you're casting out a net to see what you will catch Apr 27 17:46:58 <Sardanaphalus>	more like, casting net and hoping noone awkward notices Apr 27 17:47:06 <kim_bruning>	So what if nobody actually jumps? Heh, lucky you, I guess your change just got consensus Apr 27 17:47:13 <kim_bruning>	Nah, we want to catch the awkward folks Apr 27 17:47:15 <Sardanaphalus>	something like that Apr 27 17:47:17 <kim_bruning>	the nice folks will just talk ;-) Apr 27 17:47:22 <Sardanaphalus>	okay Apr 27 17:47:23 <kim_bruning>	we need the awkward ones Apr 27 17:47:38 <kim_bruning>	so next thing you know, someone awkward comes along and reverts you. Apr 27 17:47:44 <kim_bruning>	Now the rules say they need to talk with you. :-) Apr 27 17:48:11 <kim_bruning>	so now you've got one pissed off awkward person on the talk page demanding to know why the flying **** you **** his ****ing page ;-) Apr 27 17:48:19 <kim_bruning>	(or her) Apr 27 17:48:26 <kim_bruning>	Bingo! :-) Apr 27 17:48:29 <Sardanaphalus>	chuckle Apr 27 17:48:47 <kim_bruning>	and if they're not, you can always go to their talk page and ask why they reverted Apr 27 17:48:57 <kim_bruning>	once again, due to wiki-etiquette, they're compelled to answer Apr 27 17:49:03 <Sardanaphalus>	actually i think i've larned not to say that Apr 27 17:49:08 <Sardanaphalus>	*learned Apr 27 17:49:19 <kim_bruning>	so now you've got the exact person you had ulcers about all week Apr 27 17:49:24 <kim_bruning>	and you're talking with them FIRST Apr 27 17:49:27 <kim_bruning>	which is a good thing Apr 27 17:49:35 <kim_bruning>	since it can only get easier after this Apr 27 17:49:44 <Sardanaphalus>	? Apr 27 17:50:14 <kim_bruning>	well, the objective here is to find out what "awkward people" are watching the page and will make your life hell if you try to edit it :-) Apr 27 17:50:37 <kim_bruning>	so now we got one awkward person, compelled to talk with you on the page. Apr 27 17:50:39 <kim_bruning>	QED :-) Apr 27 17:50:45 *	Microchip08 is confused Apr 27 17:50:48 <Sardanaphalus>	where's the compulsion?? Apr 27 17:50:56 <Microchip08>	What if they don't want to talk? Apr 27 17:51:11 <kim_bruning>	they're compelled for two reasons Apr 27 17:51:26 <kim_bruning>	first of all, they're potentially pissed off... which will make then tend to want to talk Apr 27 17:51:48 <kim_bruning>	Of course, now you need to deal with an angry person... but that's mediation... which vassyana will explain more about next week :-) Apr 27 17:52:11 <kim_bruning>	secondly, wiki-etiquette says they need to talk Apr 27 17:52:13 <Sardanaphalus>	okay Apr 27 17:52:29 <kim_bruning>	finally, you have the advantage in a revert war, they hit the 3rr barrier first. Apr 27 17:52:49 	zomg what about its spirit? Apr 27 17:52:57 <Sardanaphalus>	okay ultimately they need to (try to ) oimmunicate with someone eventually otherwise it's the ban wagon Apr 27 17:53:01 <kim_bruning>	xavexgoem: I told you today we'd talk about being naughty ;-) Apr 27 17:53:10 	that's why I said zomg :-p Apr 27 17:53:24 <Sardanaphalus>	not approve, i also saw a 1RR page somewhere Apr 27 17:53:28 <kim_bruning>	the spirit of 3RR is actually to force people to talk rather than revert Apr 27 17:53:39 <kim_bruning>	so actually we're totally on the spirit here Apr 27 17:53:41 <Sardanaphalus>	persuade people Apr 27 17:53:44 	oh Apr 27 17:53:46 <kim_bruning>	we want to get people to talk too Apr 27 17:53:50 *	xavexgoem goes to meet with white cat Apr 27 17:53:57 <kim_bruning>	xavexgoem, how come? Apr 27 17:54:06 <Sardanaphalus>	prompt people, at most prod people Apr 27 17:54:07 	no reason Apr 27 17:54:23 <kim_bruning>	Sardanaphalus, yes. But at first, you need to get them in a position where you can persuade people Apr 27 17:54:37 <kim_bruning>	so the 3rr approach is generally not so very good, that's the extreme :-) Apr 27 17:54:45 <Sardanaphalus>	ya, so no good if they feel "forced" Apr 27 17:54:47 <kim_bruning>	try to use WP:HEC instead. (which is like 1RR) Apr 27 17:54:49 <Sardanaphalus>	okay Apr 27 17:54:52 *	Microchip08 points everyone to Lectures/4/Summary Apr 27 17:54:52 <kim_bruning>	Indeed... Apr 27 17:54:59 <SteveCrossin>	erm Apr 27 17:55:05 <SteveCrossin>	unrelated question Apr 27 17:55:10 <SteveCrossin>	WP:CLUE Apr 27 17:55:13 <SteveCrossin>	redirects to Apr 27 17:55:15 <SteveCrossin>	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:CLUE#Wikipedia_is_not_a_democracy Apr 27 17:55:19 <kim_bruning>	LOL Apr 27 17:55:21 <kim_bruning>	yes? Apr 27 17:55:23 <SteveCrossin>	i dont get it Apr 27 17:55:36 <Sardanaphalus>	it's not a democracy, but that doesnt mean it's the Third Reich Apr 27 17:55:50 <kim_bruning>	it's not a democracy because it's a "consensusocracy" Apr 27 17:55:53 <kim_bruning>	we're more advanced ;-) Apr 27 17:56:00 <SteveCrossin>	oh right Apr 27 17:56:00 <Sardanaphalus>	! Apr 27 17:56:02 	we hope? Apr 27 17:56:03 <kim_bruning>	but you gotta learn the ropes a bit more :-) Apr 27 17:56:08 <Sardanaphalus>	okay Apr 27 17:56:09 <kim_bruning>	xavexgoem, we hope :-) Apr 27 17:56:18 <Sardanaphalus>	btw WP:HEC looks intriguing Apr 27 17:56:23 <SteveCrossin>	"Your comments show you have the clue to successful block (or not) vandals. " Apr 27 17:56:24 <Sardanaphalus>	new for me Apr 27 17:56:29 <SteveCrossin>	thats why i wasnt sure Apr 27 17:56:32 <SteveCrossin>	in my ER Apr 27 17:56:37 <kim_bruning>	Interesting :-) Apr 27 17:56:39 <Sardanaphalus>	ER? Apr 27 17:56:45 <SteveCrossin>	editor review Apr 27 17:56:46 <kim_bruning>	right, so we covered BRD first... Apr 27 17:56:51 <Sardanaphalus>	okay Apr 27 17:56:53 <Sardanaphalus>	thanks Apr 27 17:56:59 <kim_bruning>	that's the trickiest one :-) Apr 27 17:57:16 <Sardanaphalus>	i vote for BRDocracy Apr 27 17:57:17 <kim_bruning>	and we'll probably come back and look at that particular hat trick some more over time Apr 27 17:57:30 <kim_bruning>	and vassyana might also mention it Apr 27 17:57:47 <kim_bruning>	it's an example of how to use consensus for the side effects, not for the main effect Apr 27 17:57:55 <kim_bruning>	so it's kinda spectacular, kinda fun, and kinda naughty Apr 27 17:58:04 <Sardanaphalus>	hmm Apr 27 17:58:08 <Sardanaphalus>	spanky spanky Apr 27 17:58:08 <kim_bruning>	and try to avoid using it on purpose too often. :-) Apr 27 17:58:28 <kim_bruning>	you can sometimes end up doing BRD by accident if you be bold normally, and get reverted Apr 27 17:58:29 <kim_bruning>	:-) Apr 27 17:58:49 <kim_bruning>	or you can decide to do brd to mediate, or to force changes past someone who is stonewalling or fillibustering Apr 27 17:58:54 <kim_bruning>	Alright Apr 27 17:58:59 <kim_bruning>	next topic is [[WP:SILENCE Apr 27 17:59:03 <SteveCrossin>	GRR Apr 27 17:59:08 <SteveCrossin>	Stonewalling Apr 27 17:59:10 <kim_bruning>	which is a very key part of the consensus process Apr 27 17:59:37 <Sardanaphalus>	sounds like it's something my omission Apr 27 17:59:41 <Sardanaphalus>	*by omission Apr 27 17:59:58 <kim_bruning>	we actually have a separate page all for the little line between "make an edit" and "was the page edited further?" Apr 27 18:00:01 <kim_bruning>	:-) Apr 27 18:00:23 <Sardanaphalus>	umm explain bit more please Apr 27 18:00:34 <kim_bruning>	Right :-) Apr 27 18:00:46 <kim_bruning>	so basically Apr 27 18:00:51 <kim_bruning>	you are humming along on a page Apr 27 18:00:56 <kim_bruning>	make a bunch of edits Apr 27 18:01:06 <kim_bruning>	and at the end of the day, you're done, wipe your hands, and go home... Apr 27 18:01:16 <Sardanaphalus>	and all hell breaks lose Apr 27 18:01:19 <kim_bruning>	or... turn off your computer, or close the browser, or what have you ;-) Apr 27 18:01:19 <Sardanaphalus>	loose Apr 27 18:01:21 <kim_bruning>	GRIN Apr 27 18:01:30 <kim_bruning>	well.. if all hell breaks loose, welcome to BRD ;-) Apr 27 18:01:40 <kim_bruning>	Silence is the other side of the coin Apr 27 18:01:47 <kim_bruning>	if all hell *doesn't* break loose Apr 27 18:01:53 <kim_bruning>	well... possibly your change has consensus Apr 27 18:01:54 <Sardanaphalus>	well, that's okay then Apr 27 18:01:58 <Sardanaphalus>	yes Apr 27 18:02:01 <kim_bruning>	and if the next day all hell doesn't break loose either Apr 27 18:02:07 <kim_bruning>	maybe some more Apr 27 18:02:11 <Sardanaphalus>	well, until someone who doesn't like it notices Apr 27 18:02:12 <kim_bruning>	and day after that... Apr 27 18:02:15 <kim_bruning>	exactly Apr 27 18:02:19 <kim_bruning>	and then all hell breaks loose ;-) Apr 27 18:02:31 <Sardanaphalus>	but by then it's off your watchlist Apr 27 18:02:32 <kim_bruning>	but you can't live in fear of all hell every day :) Apr 27 18:02:45 *	Microchip08 is confused again Apr 27 18:02:56 <kim_bruning>	and maybe it'll stay that way forever Apr 27 18:02:56 <Sardanaphalus>	the payoff's coming micro Apr 27 18:03:19 <kim_bruning>	so what we *assume* is that ... until that day... that particular version of the page you made? Apr 27 18:03:25 <kim_bruning>	That particular version has consensus. Apr 27 18:03:31 <Sardanaphalus>	sure Apr 27 18:03:49 <kim_bruning>	and that's basically the relationship between silence and consensus Apr 27 18:03:50 <Sardanaphalus>	there needs to be a page about it?? Apr 27 18:03:54 <Sardanaphalus>	oh okay Apr 27 18:03:58 <SteveCrossin>	hello Apr 27 18:04:10 <Sardanaphalus>	i wonder how people don't get that Apr 27 18:04:11 <kim_bruning>	you can never be sure about support, but you can sure as heck be positive about opposition ;-) Apr 27 18:04:12 	You make an edit... you wait... if it isn't reverted, it has consensus; if it reverted, you talk with the revertee and then what? Apr 27 18:04:13 <SteveCrossin>	oh i hate that Apr 27 18:04:25 <SteveCrossin>	if i can talk Apr 27 18:04:29 <SteveCrossin>	oh wait Apr 27 18:04:38 <SteveCrossin>	Microchip08 told me to shut up Apr 27 18:04:53 *	Microchip08 did Apr 27 18:04:56 <kim_bruning>	xavexgoem, you reach a compromise, put the compromise up ... and then either that stays, or someone else comes and reverts... wash rinse repeat until people stop reverting and doing lohi-editing, and get back to wiki-editing ;-) Apr 27 18:05:06 <SteveCrossin>	fine i wont talk :'( Apr 27 18:05:13 <Sardanaphalus>	maybe "There's no such thing as consensus, just discussions yet to be had" Apr 27 18:05:17 <kim_bruning>	okay... there's a bunch of cool things implied by silence Apr 27 18:05:29 <kim_bruning>	steve:you can talk, what's your question? Apr 27 18:05:37 <kim_bruning>	we'll go into silence in more detail in a sec Apr 27 18:05:44 <SteveCrossin>	well, the case im mediating (deadlocked) Apr 27 18:05:48 <SteveCrossin>	one editor Apr 27 18:05:49 <Sardanaphalus>	am amazed there's more to it Apr 27 18:05:53 <kim_bruning>	and then we'll do steve's mystery request Apr 27 18:06:01 <SteveCrossin>	when they had strong opposition to suggestions Apr 27 18:06:08 <SteveCrossin>	they'd state them Apr 27 18:06:20 <kim_bruning>	right? Apr 27 18:06:28 <SteveCrossin>	but when there are discussions about things to resolve it Apr 27 18:06:33 <SteveCrossin>	they just ignore Apr 27 18:06:39 <SteveCrossin>	WP:SILENCE? Apr 27 18:06:40 <kim_bruning>	right. That can happen Apr 27 18:06:58 	I notice that too. I never know what happens after that. Apr 27 18:07:08 <kim_bruning>	possibly that's wp:silence too... but also possibly a somewhat dysfunctional communications strategy on  their part Apr 27 18:07:14 <Sardanaphalus>	if they don't at least talk, time to go up the command chain Apr 27 18:07:19 <kim_bruning>	that is something that mediators need to be able to deal with. Apr 27 18:07:24 <SteveCrossin>	err not this one] Apr 27 18:07:35 	Sard: no! Apr 27 18:07:41 <Sardanaphalus>	i.e. wikiquette alert, mediatation Apr 27 18:07:41 	sorry, go on. Apr 27 18:07:43 <Sardanaphalus>	no? Apr 27 18:07:45 <SteveCrossin>	this one needs a completely new resolution Apr 27 18:07:47 <Sardanaphalus>	okay Apr 27 18:07:55 	oh, THAT chain. Not the worse chain. Apr 27 18:08:00 <kim_bruning>	Sardanaphalus, this is when there is already mediation. Xavex and Steve are mediators :-) Apr 27 18:08:09 <Sardanaphalus>	oops Apr 27 18:08:11 <Sardanaphalus>	okay Apr 27 18:08:11 <SteveCrossin>	yea :) Apr 27 18:08:17 <Sardanaphalus>	roll out the arbitation thing Apr 27 18:08:21 <Sardanaphalus>	arbitration Apr 27 18:08:24 	grr! Apr 27 18:08:26 <kim_bruning>	arbcom is complaining ;-) Apr 27 18:08:26 <SteveCrossin>	binding mediation Apr 27 18:08:27 	hiss! Apr 27 18:08:34 <Sardanaphalus>	it is? Apr 27 18:08:37 <kim_bruning>	yeah :-P Apr 27 18:08:42 <Sardanaphalus>	just seemed the heavy artillery to me Apr 27 18:08:43 <kim_bruning>	we'll have to think of something else :-) Apr 27 18:08:55 <kim_bruning>	arbcom is very heavy artillery, and they hate being overused :-) Apr 27 18:09:05 <SteveCrossin>	see this kim Apr 27 18:09:07 <kim_bruning>	Microchip08, you have questions? Apr 27 18:09:10 <SteveCrossin>	and everyone else Apr 27 18:09:12 <SteveCrossin>	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Second_Intifada#Mediation-Deadlocked Apr 27 18:09:16 <SteveCrossin>	kinda sucky Apr 27 18:09:31 <kim_bruning>	SteveCrossin, talk that through with vassayana in more detail eh? Apr 27 18:09:42 <SteveCrossin>	er, ok.. Apr 27 18:09:48 <Sardanaphalus>	okay, if wikiquette alert and incident noticeboard are pretty mild and arbitration council is heavy-duty, what's in between? Apr 27 18:10:00 <SteveCrossin>	nothing Apr 27 18:10:05 <SteveCrossin>	which is the issue Apr 27 18:10:18 <SteveCrossin>	and its arbitration comittee ;) Apr 27 18:10:23 <Sardanaphalus>	ph yeah, sorry Apr 27 18:10:26 <kim_bruning>	Nishidani is very wrong, mediation can often be done discretely per e-mail . If they refuse that, they'll simply be left out of that loop :-) Apr 27 18:10:33 <Sardanaphalus>	is it the issue here, kim? Apr 27 18:10:35 <SteveCrossin>	yer Apr 27 18:10:39 <kim_bruning>	partially Apr 27 18:10:40 <SteveCrossin>	FT2 suggested it Apr 27 18:10:44 <kim_bruning>	people refusing to talk can be bad :-) Apr 27 18:10:55 <kim_bruning>	It's good to hear you're getting help from FT2 :-) Apr 27 18:11:00 <Sardanaphalus>	okay where were you heading kim? Apr 27 18:11:04 <SteveCrossin>	yea hes a good guy Apr 27 18:11:21 <SteveCrossin>	i set up a basic straw poll Apr 27 18:11:31 <kim_bruning>	okay, and see where that goes Apr 27 18:11:33 <Microchip08>	Gah sorry... no ping. Apr 27 18:11:35 <SteveCrossin>	all of them either accept/reject the proposal Apr 27 18:11:35 <kim_bruning>	so... any more questions? Apr 27 18:11:39 *	Microchip08 understands Apr 27 18:11:44 <SteveCrossin>	if not.... Apr 27 18:11:50 <kim_bruning>	Alright Apr 27 18:11:51 <SteveCrossin>	 Apr 27 18:11:54 <Sardanaphalus>	hold on Apr 27 18:12:00 <kim_bruning>	Sardanaphalus, go on? Apr 27 18:12:24 <kim_bruning>	what's in between? I guess mediation is in between :-) Apr 27 18:12:32 <Sardanaphalus>	we just kind of jumped from the silence idea into areas like wikiquette, arbitration Apr 27 18:12:39 <Sardanaphalus>	was that the idea? Apr 27 18:12:46 <kim_bruning>	We paused for questions :-) Apr 27 18:12:51 <SteveCrossin>	no kim Apr 27 18:12:55 <Sardanaphalus>	okay understood Apr 27 18:13:00 <SteveCrossin>	its not Apr 27 18:13:01 <Microchip08>	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/4/Summary updated up till 5:04:52 - can someone continue it? Thanks Apr 27 18:13:03 <Sardanaphalus>	any more on silence? Apr 27 18:13:08 <kim_bruning>	yes there is Apr 27 18:13:12 <Sardanaphalus>	okay Apr 27 18:13:20 <kim_bruning>	SteveCrossin, ok, briefly explain, and then we'll get back to talking ... Apr 27 18:13:22 <SteveCrossin>	kim_bruning: mediation isnt in between Apr 27 18:13:33 <SteveCrossin>	unless im mistaken Apr 27 18:13:34 <kim_bruning>	SteveCrossin, it's in front? :-) Apr 27 18:13:36 <SteveCrossin>	youre referring to Apr 27 18:13:42 <SteveCrossin>	editors Apr 27 18:13:43 <Sardanaphalus>	wow microchip, that page was fast!! Apr 27 18:13:45 <SteveCrossin>	not content Apr 27 18:13:47 <SteveCrossin>	correct? Apr 27 18:14:01 <Microchip08>	Sardanaphalus: Thanks Apr 27 18:14:03 	3O et al->mediation->heavy duty mediation->arbitration, no? Apr 27 18:14:26 <kim_bruning>	Oh, Microchip Apr 27 18:14:34 <kim_bruning>	when you edit per BRD, you do not go against consensus Apr 27 18:14:38 <kim_bruning>	you are trying to form consensus Apr 27 18:14:54 <kim_bruning>	xavexgoem, basically :-) Apr 27 18:15:14 <Sardanaphalus>	you're trying to test consensus Apr 27 18:15:18 <kim_bruning>	yes Apr 27 18:15:27 <kim_bruning>	and you are actually using the consensus process Apr 27 18:15:29 *	Elonka (n=elonka@24-217-123-9.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures Apr 27 18:15:34 <kim_bruning>	and doing so step by step Apr 27 18:15:36 <kim_bruning>	Hello Elonka :-) Apr 27 18:15:41 <Elonka>	Ahoy.  :) Apr 27 18:15:46 <Sardanaphalus>	hi! Apr 27 18:15:59 <kim_bruning>	Microchip08, has written a brief summary at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/4/Summary Apr 27 18:16:09 *	Elonka sneaks in and takes a seat in the back of the classroom. Apr 27 18:16:22 <kim_bruning>	He has that being bold is going against consensus Apr 27 18:16:28 <Sardanaphalus>	on the creaky seat, i hear Apr 27 18:16:29 <kim_bruning>	though Apr 27 18:16:36 <kim_bruning>	I must have misexplained :-) Apr 27 18:16:42 <kim_bruning>	being bold is very much part of consensus Apr 27 18:16:48 <kim_bruning>	part of the process rather :-) Apr 27 18:17:04 <Sardanaphalus>	prob just a little mistake Apr 27 18:17:04 <kim_bruning>	right... Apr 27 18:17:15 <Sardanaphalus>	you still here, microchip? Apr 27 18:17:21 <kim_bruning>	Sardanaphalus, kinda essential though. You should never positively go against consensus :-) Apr 27 18:17:26 <Sardanaphalus>	yes Apr 27 18:17:42 <kim_bruning>	right so for the benefit of the student on the creeky chair Apr 27 18:17:49 <Sardanaphalus>	hmm shall i go try edit it now Apr 27 18:17:57 <Sardanaphalus>	okay i will during recap Apr 27 18:17:58 <kim_bruning>	go for it, this is a wiki ;-) Apr 27 18:18:41 <kim_bruning>	for the newcomer on the creeky chair, we just discussed WP:SILENCE as a specific part of the consensus graph Apr 27 18:19:00 <kim_bruning>	where you wait and wait, and assume you have consensus, until someone shows up and opposes your actions and all hell breaks loose ;-) Apr 27 18:19:11 <kim_bruning>	or maybe no-one ever will Apr 27 18:19:20 <kim_bruning>	both times, you just going to have to assume you have consensus Apr 27 18:19:21 <kim_bruning>	alright Apr 27 18:19:30 <kim_bruning>	so now there's several things that are implied by that. Apr 27 18:19:43 <kim_bruning>	this oppose-bias doesn't just occur on pages Apr 27 18:19:51 <kim_bruning>	everywhere oppose is more important than support ;-) Apr 27 18:20:07 <kim_bruning>	see RFA for example... are there more comments towards opposers, or towards supporters? :-) Apr 27 18:20:29 <Sardanaphalus>	okay i was just BOLD on that Summary page Apr 27 18:20:32 <kim_bruning>	has everyone seen a bunch of RFA's already and noticed how opposers tend to get comments, and supporters don'r? :-) Apr 27 18:20:45 <kim_bruning>	Sardanaphalus, now see if you get reverted , or if someone improves your edit further ;-) Apr 27 18:20:53 <Sardanaphalus>	hehe Apr 27 18:21:00 <kim_bruning>	Sardanaphalus, if no one does, you got consensus.... for now Apr 27 18:21:08 <Sardanaphalus>	yup Apr 27 18:21:46 <kim_bruning>	alright, so the way RFA works is a consequence of WP:SILENCE Apr 27 18:21:59 <kim_bruning>	you also see it a tad weaker at *FD (deletion pages) Apr 27 18:22:23 <kim_bruning>	originally deletion had a strong inclusionist bias... so you might have expected people to comment more on keep than on delete Apr 27 18:22:41 <kim_bruning>	nowadays the bias is shifting more towards deletion, so you can see people reply on the delete side Apr 27 18:22:48 <kim_bruning>	note that all these pages are not actually votes Apr 27 18:22:57 <Sardanaphalus>	i noticed the other day that the Categories page is for discussion Apr 27 18:23:12 <Sardanaphalus>	i mean, the CFD page Apr 27 18:23:15 <kim_bruning>	in a perfectly delineated situation, the system does approach a straight up-and-down vote Apr 27 18:23:19 <kim_bruning>	Sardanaphalus, indeed Apr 27 18:23:31 <kim_bruning>	that's probably a better name than for deletion Apr 27 18:24:20 <kim_bruning>	however, the situation needn't be perfectly delineated, and you may step around the normal procedure entirely, and just discuss and reach compromise on any RF* or *FD page Apr 27 18:24:26 <Sardanaphalus>	or even Xs for modification Apr 27 18:24:38 <kim_bruning>	just like you normally would. Though the closer will probably not love you ;-) Apr 27 18:24:51 <Sardanaphalus>	what you mean by "delineation" here? Apr 27 18:24:53 <kim_bruning>	unless you manage to reach a very clear consensus ... Apr 27 18:25:11 <kim_bruning>	well, if everyone either supports or opposes, and no compromise is possible  Apr 27 18:25:18 <kim_bruning>	then it's a pretty white-line case Apr 27 18:25:26 <kim_bruning>	and you actually do have a straight up-and-down vote Apr 27 18:25:48 <kim_bruning>	The thing is, that the procedure is not actually officially a vote Apr 27 18:26:01 <kim_bruning>	and you don't have to treat it that way if you don't want to Apr 27 18:26:04 <Sardanaphalus>	meaning the last resort is the counting of votes, okay, i see Apr 27 18:26:12 <kim_bruning>	*nod* Apr 27 18:26:31 <kim_bruning>	make sense to others too? Apr 27 18:27:10 	yes (btw: ==re:irc==  i will have to set it up when there isnt a deadline ~DGG) Apr 27 18:27:32 <Sardanaphalus>	the Democrats should choose their nominees by wiki Apr 27 18:27:36 <kim_bruning>	so now you understand when some crazy oldbie yells "80% is not consensus!!!!!11111oneoeeleven" Apr 27 18:27:41 <kim_bruning>	it really isn't Apr 27 18:27:45 <kim_bruning>	it's just the last resort :-) Apr 27 18:27:57 <kim_bruning>	LOL Apr 27 18:28:00 <kim_bruning>	it'd be more efficient Apr 27 18:28:15 <kim_bruning>	I totally tell people that the en.wikipedia consensus system is really cool for all kinds of reasons. Apr 27 18:28:16 <kim_bruning>	:-) Apr 27 18:28:21 <Sardanaphalus>	but that almost sounds like consensus = unanimous Apr 27 18:28:35 <Sardanaphalus>	which it isnt...? Apr 27 18:28:45 <kim_bruning>	Well, we have rough consensus... which means that if a small group holds out, and also refuses to concede , we can lock them out Apr 27 18:28:46 <kim_bruning>	:-) Apr 27 18:28:56 <kim_bruning>	well, not so smile there actually Apr 27 18:28:58 	Can you, err, expand into that? Apr 27 18:29:01 <kim_bruning>	that's actually kinda mean Apr 27 18:29:10 <Sardanaphalus>	that's basically what i'd say consensus is, but okay, less mean Apr 27 18:29:11 <kim_bruning>	alright Apr 27 18:29:22 <kim_bruning>	okay Apr 27 18:29:31 	Because say they ARE stonewalling; there is a silence insofar as talk page goes, but some guy keeps reverting back and forth (or he's obtuse on talk, or whatever) Apr 27 18:29:35 <kim_bruning>	basically if the large majority wants to do it one way Apr 27 18:29:47 <kim_bruning>	the holdout can try to convince them that their way is bette Apr 27 18:29:50 <kim_bruning>	better Apr 27 18:29:58 <kim_bruning>	but if they fail to convince, they should try to compromise Apr 27 18:30:17 <kim_bruning>	if they fail to compromise, they should concede and try to at least get some minor concessions for later Apr 27 18:30:18 <Sardanaphalus>	or come back another day (week, month, year) Apr 27 18:30:36 <kim_bruning>	Hehe, we'll get to that latter option in a minute Sardanaphalus ... that's an entire policy :-) Apr 27 18:30:37 <Elonka>	The important thing is that the holdout's opinions are listened to in a respectful manner... Apr 27 18:30:46 <kim_bruning>	right Apr 27 18:31:01 <Elonka>	The majority has the responsibility to listen respectfully, to weigh options, to consider compromises.... Apr 27 18:31:04 <kim_bruning>	unless the holdout is utterly insane, raving, ranting, and/or refusing to cooperate in any way :-) Apr 27 18:31:23 	(the bar for insane is pretty low these days, methinks) Apr 27 18:31:25 <kim_bruning>	Elonka is very eloquent :-) Apr 27 18:31:40 <Elonka>	But after all that, if the consensus is still clear, the holdout can be ignored.  And if they keep persisting in the face of consensus, like if they keep repeating the same argument over and over even after it's been considered, then that gets into the realm of disruption. Apr 27 18:31:45 <kim_bruning>	xavexgoem, it shouldn't be... else we could never have a remake of 12 angry men on-wiki Apr 27 18:31:48 <Sardanaphalus>	if the majority sees there's something in the holdout's POV, then a "Minority Report" should be in Apr 27 18:31:59 <kim_bruning>	Sardanaphalus, yup :-) Apr 27 18:32:21 <Elonka>	I've actually been writing this stuff up at the Working Group wiki.  :) Apr 27 18:32:24 <kim_bruning>	Sardanaphalus, and that's even true at deletions or RFA's :-) Apr 27 18:32:36 <kim_bruning>	Elonka, I'm totally going to invite you to do some lectures too :-) Apr 27 18:32:41 <Elonka>	Eep! Apr 27 18:32:44 *	Elonka sits back down again. Apr 27 18:32:46 <kim_bruning>	Ok, I won't then :-) Apr 27 18:32:59 <kim_bruning>	I like your input. Please come sit in some more at least? Apr 27 18:33:08 <Sardanaphalus>	but if there doesn't seem to be anything other than being awkward, filibustering (sp?), etc, etc, then it gets no futher than the talk pages Apr 27 18:33:10 <Elonka>	Though I do have a cool new section of the New Admin School that I want to show you after class.  :) Apr 27 18:33:25 <kim_bruning>	There's a new admin school? Apr 27 18:33:27 <kim_bruning>	wicked Apr 27 18:33:31 <kim_bruning>	they should all come here :-) Apr 27 18:33:47 <Sardanaphalus>	[new admin] school, new [admin school]? Apr 27 18:33:55 <Elonka>	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:New_admin_school Apr 27 18:34:48 <kim_bruning>	[new {admin ] school} Apr 27 18:34:59 <kim_bruning>	alright Apr 27 18:35:09 <kim_bruning>	so getting to my last story for today Apr 27 18:35:25 <kim_bruning>	there's another implication of WP:SILENCE that Sardanaphalus already guessed at. Apr 27 18:35:30 <Sardanaphalus>	i did? Apr 27 18:35:33 <kim_bruning>	Namely, that at any time, consensus can change Apr 27 18:35:36 <kim_bruning>	WP:CCC Apr 27 18:35:39 <Sardanaphalus>	oh okay Apr 27 18:35:57 <kim_bruning>	so if you ever disagree with anything Apr 27 18:36:03 <kim_bruning>	and you step up to the soapbox Apr 27 18:36:22 <kim_bruning>	no one can go "HALT! You're not allowed to change things anymore. Consensus is set in stone, frozen, and pickled" Apr 27 18:36:33 <Sardanaphalus>	absolutely, thank G Apr 27 18:36:53 <kim_bruning>	you can tell them to go do someting impossible involving their mother and some rather improbable gymnastics Apr 27 18:36:59 <kim_bruning>	(in the politest possible terms, of course) Apr 27 18:37:10 <Sardanaphalus>	pickled consensus... i like that image Apr 27 18:37:37 <kim_bruning>	and carry on and attempt to make the change you wanted Apr 27 18:37:43 <Sardanaphalus>	that's what it is on wikipedia -- not set or frozen, but definitely pickled Apr 27 18:37:47 <SteveCrossin>	:P Apr 27 18:37:50 *	Notify: habj is online (FreeNode). Apr 27 18:37:53 <kim_bruning>	you may have to keep in mind that you're coming to the conversation rather late Apr 27 18:38:02 <Sardanaphalus>	true Apr 27 18:38:22 <kim_bruning>	and that others already have opinions Apr 27 18:38:29 *	habj (i=habj@wikipedia/habj) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures Apr 27 18:38:33 <kim_bruning>	so you might automatically be in the position of the holdout , at first Apr 27 18:38:45 <kim_bruning>	and you'll have to start out convincing people Apr 27 18:38:50 *	kim_bruning waves to habj Apr 27 18:38:51 <Sardanaphalus>	but then i'd think that if the consensus has really stood the tests of time, someone has probably done one of those essay pages with a nutshell summary Apr 27 18:39:01 <Sardanaphalus>	hello habj! Apr 27 18:39:05 <kim_bruning>	Sardanaphalus, probably :-) Apr 27 18:39:52 <kim_bruning>	Of course, if you're in the position of the holdout, you first need to figure out who to talk to... Apr 27 18:40:04 <kim_bruning>	... so guess what method you might consider using? Apr 27 18:40:18 <Sardanaphalus>	hehe BRD, i get it Apr 27 18:40:28 <kim_bruning>	so the circle is complete Apr 27 18:40:36 <kim_bruning>	and this lecture almost as well :-) Apr 27 18:40:37 <Sardanaphalus>	cue Lord of the Rings music Apr 27 18:40:44 <kim_bruning>	 Apr 27 18:40:52 <kim_bruning>	so one final note for today Apr 27 18:40:56 <Sardanaphalus>	okay Apr 27 18:41:04 <kim_bruning>	when you're playing with consensus, you have to keep one huge thing in mind Apr 27 18:41:12 <kim_bruning>	And that's that you need to assume good faith Apr 27 18:41:21 <kim_bruning>	and you need to give people confidence in their good faith in you Apr 27 18:41:39 <kim_bruning>	A consensus system will fail to operate without good faith. Apr 27 18:41:54 <Sardanaphalus>	ya Apr 27 18:41:56 <kim_bruning>	Typically, about 90% of the people you deal with are acting in good faith Apr 27 18:42:06 <kim_bruning>	but people assume bad faith rather more often Apr 27 18:42:21 <Sardanaphalus>	the human condition Apr 27 18:42:27 <kim_bruning>	and this means that you get problems with consensus more often than necessary Apr 27 18:42:32 	(is it? :-p) Apr 27 18:43:00 <Sardanaphalus>	(sure is, and if you don't agree with me... hehe) Apr 27 18:43:32 	(nah, but agree to disagree?) Apr 27 18:43:46 <kim_bruning>	Trust is essential to cooperation. More problems are caused by lack of trust than by misplaced trust Apr 27 18:43:49 <kim_bruning>	so trust first. Apr 27 18:43:51 *	Thehelpfulone2_ (n=Helper@unaffiliated/thehelpfulone) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures Apr 27 18:44:08 <Sardanaphalus>	trust should be so much easier since it's all just data on screens Apr 27 18:44:16 <kim_bruning>	((That's actually basic game theory , trust first is one of the most successful stratagems in iterated prisoners dilemma)) Apr 27 18:44:23 <kim_bruning>	even if you're pretty sure someone is a slimy weasel Apr 27 18:44:28 <kim_bruning>	pretend they're nice anyway Apr 27 18:44:40 <kim_bruning>	9 times out of 10, if you're patient, they'll turn out to be nice in the end Apr 27 18:44:44 <Sardanaphalus>	nobody's a slimy weasel somewhere in their personality Apr 27 18:44:55 <Sardanaphalus>	if that makes sense Apr 27 18:45:01 *	habj is a slimy weasel sometimes Apr 27 18:45:02 <kim_bruning>	and if they don't. Heh, well, you come out smelling like roses, they come out banned Apr 27 18:45:04 *	Thehelpfulone2 has quit (Nick collision from services.) Apr 27 18:45:06 <Elonka>	And often people that you think are slimy weasels at the time, if you come back and read their messages a month later, you'll realize they weren't so bad.  ;) Apr 27 18:45:06 *	Thehelpfulone2_ is now known as Thehelpfulone2 Apr 27 18:45:17 <kim_bruning>	so AGF is totally a win-win proposition Apr 27 18:45:24 <kim_bruning>	also what Elonka said :-) Apr 27 18:45:26 <Sardanaphalus>	ultimately, yes Apr 27 18:45:36 <kim_bruning>	Assume good faith Apr 27 18:46:53 <kim_bruning>	so that basically concludes what I have to say about consensus. Remember that you're here to cooperate with people. And that's our highest law (in fact, higher than THE law... as the policy states at WP:IAR... Apr 27 18:47:12 <kim_bruning>	... you can ignore rules, but do listen to the consensus of your peers) Apr 27 18:47:33 <kim_bruning>	===== Questions ? Apr 27 18:47:35 <Sardanaphalus>	Rule 2: Ignore all rules except Rule 1. Apr 27 18:47:45 <Sardanaphalus>	oops Apr 27 18:47:59 <Sardanaphalus>	Rule 2: Ignore all rules except Rules 1 and 2. Apr 27 18:48:14 <kim_bruning>	you can even ignore those rules, if you like ;-) Apr 27 18:48:26 <Sardanaphalus>	where Rule 1 = AGF Apr 27 18:48:28 <kim_bruning>	alright, let's do questions, and then we go unmoderated... Apr 27 18:48:35 <kim_bruning>	maybe don't ignore rule 1 ;-) Apr 27 18:48:48 <kim_bruning>	SteveCrossin also might want me to do a mini-lecture for him ... Apr 27 18:49:06 <kim_bruning>	Elonka: I have a question for you too . Namely: what should we do next lectures on :-) Apr 27 18:49:16 <Elonka>	Well, I just heard about this today... Apr 27 18:49:30 <Elonka>	So I think it's really dependent on who the target audience is... Apr 27 18:49:45 <Elonka>	You have two audiences, as I see it.  Those who show up real-time, and those who read the captures later... Apr 27 18:49:52 <kim_bruning>	Elonka, The target audience is whoever shows up. If you want to send folks here, they're the target audience, and we shall cater! :-) Apr 27 18:49:53 <Elonka>	Is there a "request" section on the page?  I haven't read it all yet. Apr 27 18:50:01 <kim_bruning>	(how's that for an offer you can't refuse) Apr 27 18:50:05 <kim_bruning>	Elonka, Make one! :0 Apr 27 18:50:15 <Sardanaphalus>	i thought there was one...? Apr 27 18:50:17 <kim_bruning>	Elonka, Make a request section, if you like, that's a good idea :-0 Apr 27 18:50:17 <Elonka>	Of those who showed up today, what were you hoping to learn? Apr 27 18:50:22 <kim_bruning>	Sardanaphalus, Oh, okay :-) Apr 27 18:50:30 <kim_bruning>	I echo Elonka's question :-) Apr 27 18:50:33 *	kim_bruning listens Apr 27 18:50:33 <Sardanaphalus>	but i may be imagining it Apr 27 18:50:52 <Sardanaphalus>	i got this can of worms here but not sure if now's the time to open it Apr 27 18:50:58 	Kinda intuitive after a bit... Apr 27 18:51:02 <kim_bruning>	Sardanaphalus, Not Yet. Apr 27 18:51:17 <kim_bruning>	Sardanaphalus, show us the label on the can? Apr 27 18:51:17 <kim_bruning>	:-) Apr 27 18:51:29 <kim_bruning>	Elonka, you are cordially invited to Be BOLD :-) Apr 27 18:51:43 <Elonka>	If I'm understanding Sardanaphalus, he's hoping that this chat is sort of like a live Help Desk? Apr 27 18:51:45 <kim_bruning>	Elonka, on these pages, of all places! :-) Apr 27 18:51:48 <Sardanaphalus>	okay. But, just so you know, it's labeled "Difference between consensus in processes and consensus about facts" Apr 27 18:52:01 	I second Sard's can! Apr 27 18:52:29 <kim_bruning>	we're using consensus in processes so as not to confuse people Apr 27 18:52:29 <Sardanaphalus>	well, a help desk where you wonder up with nothing specific but know you're likely to get some useful help you didn't know you needed Apr 27 18:52:36 <kim_bruning>	the real thing is consensus about facts :-) Apr 27 18:52:49 <Sardanaphalus>	okay, well I'm NOT opening that can now Apr 27 18:52:56 <Sardanaphalus>	*wander Apr 27 18:52:59 <Elonka>	Wikipedia consensus was one of the hardest things for me to get my head around, as a new editor. Apr 27 18:52:59 	What if you're in a bitter dispute between reliable source 1 and reliable source 2? Apr 27 18:53:11 <Sardanaphalus>	arrg Apr 27 18:53:15 *	Elonka raises her hand. "Me! Me!" Apr 27 18:53:21 <Sardanaphalus>	i should've torn the label off Apr 27 18:53:27 <kim_bruning>	I used to think consensus for process was suboptimal. We were only using it so that stuff wouldn't b0rk encyclopedia-side if people dragged in voting on whether 1+1=3 ;-) Apr 27 18:53:37 <kim_bruning>	Elonka, go on? Apr 27 18:53:54 <Elonka>	Xavexgoem, if you two reliable sources that say completely different things... Apr 27 18:53:57 <Elonka>	Include 'em both. Apr 27 18:54:00 <kim_bruning>	(now I think consensus rocks everywhere, but maybe I just got used to it) Apr 27 18:54:00 <Sardanaphalus>	yes Apr 27 18:54:14 <Elonka>	Though WP:UNDUE also comes into play a bit... Apr 27 18:54:37 	What if one of the sources is only so reliable, but including it would be best for 10 people but 1 person disagrees "per WP:RS" Apr 27 18:54:39 <Elonka>	If there are 100 reliable sources, and 99 say "A" and 1 says "B", then you'd better be really sure that that "B" source is reliable, and not a typo. Apr 27 18:54:45 	sorry, tangent... Apr 27 18:55:08 <Sardanaphalus>	99 vs. 1 would probably relegate the one to a footnote Apr 27 18:55:22 <Elonka>	Or possibly not at all. Apr 27 18:55:27 <Sardanaphalus>	yup Apr 27 18:55:37 <Elonka>	I had a dispute with an editor over a "typoed" reliable source.  The source was good, the sentence wasn't. Apr 27 18:55:47 <kim_bruning>	what if it's 99 smurfs vs 1 gargamel's cat on the color of gargamel's socks? Apr 27 18:56:04 <Elonka>	Erm? Apr 27 18:56:08 <Sardanaphalus>	anyway, i need a screen break and need to read transcript another time anyway Apr 27 18:56:13 <kim_bruning>	ah wait Apr 27 18:56:17 <kim_bruning>	the smurfs are less reliable Apr 27 18:56:20 *	Thehelpfulone2 is now known as THO2|Away Apr 27 18:56:21 <kim_bruning>	skip the example ;-) Apr 27 18:56:22 <Sardanaphalus>	oh lordy Apr 27 18:56:44 <kim_bruning>	nevermind. That's what happens on irc... you think you get a good idea Apr 27 18:56:45 <kim_bruning>	hit return Apr 27 18:56:48 <Sardanaphalus>	the scientist in me says: that's why we end up getting out there and testing things Apr 27 18:56:51 <kim_bruning>	and then wish you could revert yourself ;-) Apr 27 18:57:00 <Elonka>	Xavexgoem, can you expand upon your example? Apr 27 18:57:04 <kim_bruning>	Sardanaphalus, OMG, OR! Apr 27 18:57:05 <kim_bruning>	;-) Apr 27 18:57:08 *	kim_bruning ducks Apr 27 18:57:09 *	SteveCrossin is now known as Jack_Bauer Apr 27 18:57:26 <Sardanaphalus>	hey, everything starts as OR :) Apr 27 18:57:31 <kim_bruning>	Amen Apr 27 18:57:32 <kim_bruning>	alright Apr 27 18:57:42 <kim_bruning>	looks like we're more in the end-of-lecture discussion phase now Apr 27 18:57:45 	50% of sources say "hostage"; 50% of sources say "captive". One guy wants hostage. The other wants captive. Synyonyms not allowed. Apr 27 18:57:52 <kim_bruning>	so let's make that official . Lecture over! ================== Apr 27 18:57:52 <Sardanaphalus>	thanks for prompting too many thoughts in my skull Apr 27 18:57:55 <kim_bruning>	 Apr 27 18:58:08 <kim_bruning>	Sardanaphalus, you're welcome. That's what we're here for ;-) Apr 27 18:58:21 <Sardanaphalus>	i need to send them to the back of it for a while now Apr 27 18:58:30 	Or maybe I just didn't argue well enough for synonyms. It seemed like they wouldn't have it. Apr 27 18:58:44 <Sardanaphalus>	so might have followup queries next time Apr 27 18:58:59 <Sardanaphalus>	bye! Apr 27 18:59:17 *	Seddon (n=chatzill@host81-157-83-161.range81-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures Apr 27 18:59:19 	bye Sard Apr 27 18:59:22 	Hi Seddon, just in time! Apr 27 18:59:23 <Jack_Bauer>	lol Seddon Apr 27 18:59:28 <Jack_Bauer>	youre late Apr 27 18:59:33 <kim_bruning>	's ok Apr 27 18:59:34 *	Sardanaphalus has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox 2.0.0.14/2008040413]") Apr 27 18:59:39 <Seddon>	been spear chucking Apr 27 18:59:44 <Jack_Bauer>	orly Apr 27 18:59:45 <kim_bruning>	sounds like fun Apr 27 18:59:46 <kim_bruning>	:-) Apr 27 19:00:04 <Jack_Bauer>	btw Apr 27 19:00:07 <Seddon>	yep and ball throwing Apr 27 19:00:11 <Jack_Bauer>	i really am jack bauer Apr 27 19:00:12 <Jack_Bauer>	:P Apr 27 19:00:13 <kim_bruning>	Alright... also, we got habj in one of the back seats next to Elonka today :-) Apr 27 19:00:16 <Seddon>	and plate lobbing Apr 27 19:00:24 <kim_bruning>	habj is from svwiki and also from translations and such :) Apr 27 19:00:33 *	Elonka passes Habj a cookie. Apr 27 19:00:36 *	kim_bruning says, introducing Apr 27 19:01:33 *	kim_bruning passes around a box of HTML cookies Apr 27 19:01:36 *	habj places the cookie in the hard disk, says thanks Apr 27 19:01:45 <Elonka>	heh Apr 27 19:01:47 <kim_bruning>	if/when we do this in egypt, I might pass around stroopwafels Apr 27 19:01:51 <kim_bruning>	(symbols of the cabal ;-) ) Apr 27 19:02:14 *	habj places stroowafels in kim_brunings hard disk Apr 27 19:02:29 *	kim_bruning <- loses all my data Apr 27 19:03:06 <kim_bruning>	wow Apr 27 19:03:15 <Jack_Bauer>	i r hungry too Apr 27 19:03:15 <kim_bruning>	so the new admin school is POST-promotion Apr 27 19:03:18 <kim_bruning>	wowie wow wow Apr 27 19:03:25 <Jack_Bauer>	lol Apr 27 19:03:31 <Jack_Bauer>	its always been that way Apr 27 19:03:41 <Jack_Bauer>	youre thinking of admin coaching Apr 27 19:03:42 <kim_bruning>	we totally should also offer all those new admins a course on mediation over at medcab :-) Apr 27 19:03:50 <Elonka>	Is the capture off? Apr 27 19:04:02 <kim_bruning>	this channel is typically logged permanently Apr 27 19:04:08 <kim_bruning>	Do you want to discuss elsewhere? Apr 27 19:04:22 <Elonka>	No, I want to show you a link, but I don't want it going up on the lectures page. Apr 27 19:04:28 <kim_bruning>	ok, just msg me :-) Apr 27 19:04:36 <Elonka>	When is the lecture officially "over"? Apr 27 19:04:39 <Jack_Bauer>	oh man Apr 27 19:04:47 <Elonka>	Or could we chat about milk and cookies for an hour, and it'd all go in the log?  :) Apr 27 19:04:52 <kim_bruning>	the latter Apr 27 19:04:55 <Jack_Bauer>	so all the stupid stuff Ive been aying Apr 27 19:04:58 <kim_bruning>	the lecture was over a while ago Apr 27 19:05:07 	These bits won't go into the log, though, right? Apr 27 19:05:10 	They haven't before Apr 27 19:05:14 <kim_bruning>	logging encourages people to stay on topic ;-) Apr 27 19:05:14 <Jack_Bauer>	i hope not Apr 27 19:05:22 <Jack_Bauer>	err Apr 27 19:05:26 <Elonka>	Okay, can we all move to a room where we can still chat openly, but not be logged? Apr 27 19:05:32 <kim_bruning>	sure Apr 27 19:05:35 <Jack_Bauer>	i never knew my stupidity would be logged Apr 27 19:05:35 	#wikipedia-medcab ? Apr 27 19:05:38 <Jack_Bauer>	:| Apr 27 19:05:41 	only other channel I know Apr 27 19:05:44 <Seddon>	yer thatll do Apr 27 19:05:54 <Seddon>	its not like its used for anything major Apr 27 19:06:00 <Elonka>	Works for me. Apr 27 19:06:01 	not typically Apr 27 19:06:01 <Jack_Bauer>	lol Apr 27 19:06:03 <kim_bruning>	only for medcab ;-) Apr 27 19:06:10 <Jack_Bauer>	TINC Apr 27 19:06:10 <Seddon>	anything delicate can be discussed privatrely Apr 27 19:06:11 <kim_bruning>	Seddon, you have the right attitude Apr 27 19:06:24 <kim_bruning>	Jack_Bauer, you're not that stupid :-) Apr 27 19:06:30 <Jack_Bauer>	heh Apr 27 19:06:44 >chanserv<	op Apr 27 19:06:51 >chanserv<	op #wikipedia-en-lectures Apr 27 19:06:52 *	ChanServ gives channel operator status to kim_bruning Apr 27 19:06:57 <Seddon>	kim_bruning: IRC channels arnt the place to discussing anything sensitive Apr 27 19:07:03 <Seddon>	just stupid if you do Apr 27 19:07:12 *	kim_bruning has changed the topic to: How to make friends and influence wikis. Lectures | this channel is permanently logged and posted on-wiki, if you disagree, /part now. Apr 27 19:07:20 *	kim_bruning removes voice from kim_bruning Apr 27 19:07:23 *	kim_bruning removes channel operator status from kim_bruning Apr 27 19:07:30 <kim_bruning>	Seddon, true :-) Apr 27 19:08:50 <Seddon>	where is the lectures chat? Apr 27 19:09:09 	Seddon: we're in medcab Apr 27 19:09:39 <Microchip08>	#wikipedia-en-friends Apr 27 19:10:58 <kim_bruning>	Microchip08, you're invited to #wikipedia-medcab too Apr 27 19:11:07 <kim_bruning>	for being a cabal, the medcab is remarkably open ;-) Apr 27 19:11:23 <Microchip08>	:D Apr 27 19:11:27 <kim_bruning>	possibly by now other people have actually rather passed the medcab in secret underhanded dealings ;-) Apr 27 19:13:45 <Microchip08>	... Apr 27 19:14:00 *	Microchip08 will update summary later tonight Apr 27 19:14:45 <kim_bruning>	Coolness Apr 27 19:14:49 <kim_bruning>	I'll upload logs later today too Apr 27 19:15:00 <Microchip08>	:-) Apr 27 19:17:57 <kim_bruning>	Did you get the bit about not going against consensus? Apr 27 19:18:06 <kim_bruning>	I think someone already helped you out :-) Apr 27 19:19:54 <Microchip08>	yep, thanks Apr 27 19:27:27 <kim_bruning>	++ Apr 27 19:49:09 *	AaronSchulz (n=chatzill@wikipedia/VoiceOfAll) has left #wikipedia-en-lectures Apr 27 19:57:01 *	maximr|away has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) Apr 27 20:12:38 *	habj has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) Apr 27 20:12:56 *	habj (i=habj@wikipedia/habj) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures
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