Wikipedia:Lectures/log

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kim_: yes, it is quiet here :-P

*:    kim_ has changed the topic to: lecture here at 15:00 UTC (17:00 CEST)

White_Cat:    its 15:47

White_Cat:    my local time

kim_: that's an odd local time, where are you?

White_Cat:    +2

White_Cat:    not that ODD

White_Cat:    its actualy even

kim_: +2?

kim_: eh?

kim_: you're at +2+1?

kim_: currently CEST = UTC+0200

kim_: and CEST=15:05

*:    kim_ wonders where White_Cat lives

White_Cat:    Day Light Savings

kim_: yes but where do you live?

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kim_: Helo!

kim_: quiet here!

kim_: 1 hour to go

snowolf:

snowolf: at's the channel about?

*:    theoB (n=jazz@bruning.xs4all.nl) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures

kim_: Heya theo, heya snowolf

theoB: hi kim

kim_: I think today I'll explain 5 pillars

kim_: and history of that

kim_: just as a boring topic to get started

kim_: and then as people ask questions I'll switch to answering exciting questions ;-)

kim_: for folks just joining

*:    kim_ nudges theoB

kim_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Five_Pillars

kim_: if that doesn't incite riots quite yet...

kim_: ... we could always discuss this blog post :

kim_: http://nonnotablenatterings.blogspot.com/2008/04/more-on-anonymity.html

White_Cat:    mmm

kim_: mmm?

kim_: well.. looks like things weren't popular at all..

kim_: saves me some time

kim_: gets me to report that lectures no worky :-P

kim_: of course, everyone might start trickling in any moment

kim_: anyone here want to help me alert people that lectures are starting?

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White_Cat:    kim_ well

*:    SynergeticMag (n=chatzill@70-9-170-79.area4.spcsdns.net) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures

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White_Cat:    the idea of a lecture over IRC is a bit flawed

*:    Lucifer_Cat puts in a request to ban canines and relatives from the room.

White_Cat:    a video would be better :P

White_Cat:    CANVASSED!

Lucifer_Cat:  well hes away

Lucifer_Cat:  anyways, kim_ go on

Pilotguy_aw:  lol

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Pilotguy:     Meh, I think an IRC lecture works

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Pilotguy:     GofG- Ask kim_

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kim_: Hello!

kim_: Ok

ST47: Hello!

kim_: I'm just going down the list of people who signed on previously

kim_: and just leaving them a message that lecture starts now

kim_: I'm going to start out dronging about the 5 pillars and how they started

kim_: and I hope to get interesting questions

kim_: which we'll then spend the hour answering

*:    kibble (n=kibble@wikimedia/Cbrown1023) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures

kibble: _O

kim_: start in ~ 5 minutes max :-)

kim_: hello kibble!

*:    kibble wonders what this is

kibble: eya

kim_: Going to do a talk about how to influence the cabal ;-)

kibble: un

kim_: That's what I thought

kim_: let's see

GofG: Which particular cabal?

kim_: The wikipedia cabal

kim_: the big one ;-)

kim_: that doesn't actually exist, of course (tinc)

kim_: Still need to notify 11 people

kim_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures

kim_: urk

kim_: under:

kim_: ""I think I already know this stuff, but I'd love to sit in anyway"

kim_: So for the new folks

kim_: starting in a minute or ... two ... (could someone help notify the last 11 people?)

kim_: I'd like to start talking about the 5 pillars

kim_: and how they started

kim_: hmm, I'll add a link  so folks have something to look at

kim_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikirules_proposal

kim_: ^- this was the initial proposal that eventually lead to the 5 pillars

kim_: read that through for a minute :-)

kim_: This will be fairly interactive, I hope

kim_: Wikirules proposal is several influentual wikipedians asking if folks could set a simpler ruleset for wikipedia

kim_: I "subverted" the proposal, using some wiki-knowlege... so that might be a good place to start discussing how to do world domination

kim_: see if you can identify who each of the people on that page was or is :-)

kim_: I'll go notify the last 11 people in the mean time

kim_: Can I get some help? (show of hands? :-) )

*:    SynergeticMag shows his hand

*:    Lucifer_Cat raises but had zoned out

*:    SynergeticMag was about to notify Kim_Bruning

kim_: SynergeticMag, :-P

Lucifer_Cat:  lol i suppose thats kim_

Lucifer_Cat:  kim bruning reminds me of kimpossible

kim_: yeah this is going to be a bit messy the first time we do this

kim_: still need to get people sorted and stuff ;-)

SynergeticMag: Luna-San is on irc right now but away, I've notified him here instead

Lucifer_Cat:  so i quanticle

Lucifer_Cat:  so is*

kim_: Lucifer_Cat, Erik Moeller thought the same, then I showed him some kim possible episodes

kim_: Lucifer_Cat, but you can cal me beep me when you wanna reach me anyway ;-)

kim_: call too

*:    Lucifer_Cat has no idea who Erik Moeller is

White_Cat:    ?

White_Cat:    Kim possible?

SynergeticMag: tv show...

Lucifer_Cat:  also, i've never watched kim possible, just seen some ads. so if theres any reference in there, i wont get it

White_Cat:    kim_ that makes you non-notable cruft!

*:    White_Cat deletes

White_Cat:    :P

*:    Lucifer_Cat has a question...

Lucifer_Cat:  well nevermind.

White_Cat:    kim_ so

White_Cat:    you'll be lecturing in wikimania?

*:    GofG is now known as GofG_Cat

GofG_Cat:     Can I be a cat too?

kim_: Lucifer_Cat, go on?

kim_: we have a lot of hep cats here

Lucifer_Cat:  GofG_Cat: sure you can

kim_: almost done notifying ;-)

Lucifer_Cat:  kim_: nothing.

kim_: Ok, all notified

*:    GofG_Cat is now known as GofG

Lucifer_Cat:  GofG: :(

GofG: Sorry

GofG: I was talking in wikipedia-en

GofG: and realised that I look silly as a cat.

kim_: Ok

kim_: all notifying that was possible has been done

kim_: Gonna start out all boring like

kim_: so how many people here already know the 5 pillars?

GofG: That's a rather bold statement to make, kim_

SynergeticMag: Has anyone notified the other wikipedia irc channels?

GofG: >.< I'll shut up

SynergeticMag: I know about them

GofG: I'm aware of them, kim_

kim_: GofG, ROTFL ;-)

Lucifer_Cat:  I read them a bit

kim_: Okay

*:    SteveCrossin (n=chatzill@c211-28-55-181.frank1.vic.optusnet.com.au) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures

SteveCrossin: hey guys sorry im late

*:    GofG hugs SteveCrossin

SteveCrossin: internet broke about 30mins ago

kim_: heya!

kim_: :-)

kim_: LOL

kim_: Poor you!

kim_: it's ok

kim_: we were still busy notifying people

kim_: not everyone has their clocks set to UTC

SteveCrossin: my PC crashes today

SteveCrossin: had to reformat

kim_: SynergeticMag, feel free to notify other channels

SteveCrossin: i need a user blocked for 24 hours

*:    Received a CTCP PING 1041842898906 from SynergeticMag

SteveCrossin: incivility with warnings

SteveCrossin: im the mediator

kim_: ok, so 5 pillars are that wikipedia is an encyclopedia, it has a neutral point of view, wikipeida is free content, there's a code of conduct (etiquette), and it doesn't have firm rules

SteveCrossin: and theyve been notified of it

kim_: that's the current 5 pillars

kim_: SteveCrossin, wrong channel for that!

SteveCrossin: sorry

kim_: SteveCrossin, 's ok :-)

kim_: SteveCrossin, ask on #wikipedia-en :-)

kim_: Ok...

kim_: Starting lecture officially now

kim_: So hello everyone, welcome to this first irc lecture :-)

GofG: Howdy Kim!

*:    GofG hugs kim_

kim_: we're starting about half an hour late, due to having to notify people who didn't have their clocks set to UTC, we might expect some more people to trickle in as time progresses

*:    kim_ gets hugged (only on irc folks! ;-) )

kim_: so I'm the person doing most of the talking today... but to spare my poor wrists, I hope to get people talking with each other as well at some point

kim_: I'm going to start out somewhat boringly with the 5 pillars

kim_: and then I hope to get questions and we can take interesting side routes

kim_: especially drifting off towards consensus and some cool work kevin murray has been doing, or some old work by nullc (Greg Maxwell)

kim_: Okay, so in january of 2005, people started seeing that wikipedias rules were getting way too complex, and they wanted to set up a commission to discuss how wikipedia policy could be improved

kim_: Now several months later, they were still in the process of setting up that commission

kim_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikirules_proposal

kim_: But then someone  http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Wikirules_proposal&diff=12123669&oldid=11992320

kim_: proposed a different method ;-)

kim_: namely to use the wiki

kim_: and when the wiki was applied to the same process...

kim_: we basically got several pages of work WP:SR (simplified ruleset), WP:TRI (policy trifecta) and WP:5P (5 pillars)

kim_: does everyone know how to look up those pages?

*:    kim_ triplechecks

SteveCrossin: yeah

SteveCrossin: u taught me about trifecta :)

SynergeticMag: yup

kim_: I know of one person who might not... basically you go to en.wikipedia.org and type what's inside the square brackets in the search box (so type WP:TRI in the search box to get a page about the trifecta, it's a useful shortcut)

kim_: (also, some folks reading the log might find that handy)

kim_: so after 5 minutes of furious typing... here's a question to the channel to solve...

kim_: what's the difference between WP:TRI and WP:5P, which 2 rules hav been added?

*:    Seddon (n=chatzill@unaffiliated/seddon69) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures

Seddon: any apologies for my late arrival

Seddon: have been up a mountain all day

*:    SynergeticMag will provide the links the links http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:TRI, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:5_pillars, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sr

kim_: heya seddon, we're just comparing WP:TRI with WP:5P ...

kim_: SynergeticMag, thank you! :-)

kim_: but on the current wikipedia, we really see 2 trifectas emerging

GofG: well

kim_: one is the wiki-trifecta

kim_: the other the encyclopedia one ...

kim_: GofG, go on?

GofG: No, nevermind

kim_: *sigh*

kim_: Oh well

kim_: Anyone so far?

SynergeticMag: of course IAR is one

kim_: SynergeticMag, IAR is the 5th rule of the 5 pillars :-)

kim_: so that's common between the two. yup :-)

SynergeticMag: oh you're looking for the difference's?

kim_: heh, and on the 5 pillars, WP:Etiquette replaces "Don't be a dick"

kim_: hmm, I wonder why they did that? :-P

GofG: Well, "Wikipedia is an Encyclopedia" implies a lot more in it than "Wikipedia should have an NPOV"

SteveCrossin: i think WP:DICK is the universal behavioural guideline

kim_: GofG, *nodnod*

kim_: SteveCrossin,

SteveCrossin: like I told you once, if you follow WP:DICK

SteveCrossin: you cant go wrong

kim_: Of course, these days people say "please be civil" instead

GofG: The former implying things like verifiability, proper style, and NPOV

kim_: which is the same difference

GofG: the latter implying simply NPOV

kim_: GofG, right

kim_: so the 5 pillars are more all-inclusive

GofG: Except that

*:    kim_ listnes

GofG: NPOV is in the 2nd pillar

*:    kim_ listens too

Seddon: ht if what you considered being a dick to be normal in your society and something which is perhaps expected

GofG: It's more like

Seddon: eople have different interpretations of what a "dick" is

kim_: GofG, so NPOV gets stressed some more?

GofG: They split up TRI's NPOV rule into 5P's Encyclopedia rule and 5P's NPOV rule

kim_: GofG, right

GofG: I would say that Encyclopedia gets stressed more, since they took it out of NPOV and made it its own section

GofG: But I could very easiliy be wrong

kim_: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Five_pillars&oldid=13207659

kim_: GofG, you could have a point

kim_: here's the original 5 pillars written by neutrality

kim_: if you want a look at the history of these pages, you can look at WT:SR, which has discussion about simplified rulesets, and eventually people proposing the trifecta

kim_: neutrality figured that the trifecta was a tad too simple

kim_: So ... do you folks think that these 5 rules really do cover all wikipedia activity?

GofG: I personally don't

kim_: GofG, what's missing?

GofG: All the.... beurocratic stuff

GofG: I dunno, it's hard to explain

GofG: There's a ton of politics going on

kim_:

Seddon: he nitty gritty perhaps?

kim_: Indeed

GofG: brb soup

kim_: GofG, so I'd like to cover some of the underlying politics perhaps :-)

kim_: soup! ;-)

kim_: Seddon, I guess so

*:    SteveCrossin will be right back

SteveCrossin: i have a conflict to handle :/

SynergeticMag: which ones kim_:

GofG: Back

kim_: If you look at WP:SR, the original plan was to list only those things that you would need to obtain adminship ... in 2005

GofG: Ended up going for cereal >.<

kim_: wb

GofG: kim_: How so?

kim_: GofG, how so on which statement?

GofG: As in, "this is the model for a good editor"?

kim_: SteveCrossin, keep your window open and keep logging :-)

kim_: GofG, exactly :-)

SteveCrossin: will do

kim_: which is what wikipedia documentation is supposed to be about, right?

SteveCrossin: they were blocked

*:    SteveCrossin sighs

kim_: SteveCrossin, awww

SteveCrossin: it had to happen

kim_: SteveCrossin, you wanted them to be blocked though, right?

GofG: Wasn't/isn't adminship acceptance extremely varied based on who happens to be voting at the time, though?

SteveCrossin: yes, extreme incivility

kim_: GofG, well, everyone is supposed to have a clue about what actually makes a good admin, right?

SynergeticMag: Can we keep the conversation on the topic if at all possible. I was getting interested in the discussion. :)

kim_: SynergeticMag, underlying politics? :-)

SynergeticMag: yes

kim_: alright, everyone else want to continue on that line? :-)

SynergeticMag: this sounds massive

Seddon: ell tbh i think RfA is the place where alot of politics can be found in a condensed manner

kim_: Seddon, indeed

kim_: I'll cover some basic theory, and then we can discuss... sound like a plan?

Seddon: k cool :)

kim_: naturally, I want to start out talking about consensus ;-)

kim_: so first question, what is consensus...?

kim_: Several folks might have some ideas themselves

GofG: Hmm

kim_: so what definitions do people have? (in 1 or 2 lines?)

SynergeticMag: consensus is something that is rarely seen and hardly ever achieved, yet referenced constantly

GofG: A state where everyone is content with the current state of the article, or if you're looking for a more general definition, a state where all involved parties are simply content with the state of things?

SynergeticMag: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Consensus

SynergeticMag: GofG: as i said :)

SynergeticMag: true consensus can never be achieved on wikipedia, since it cannot exist outside of it

kim_: SynergeticMag, well, we wrote a piece on that

kim_: at WP:SILENCE

SynergeticMag: i've seen it

kim_: (silence and consensus)

kim_: basically it says that you can never really know you have consensus on anything

kim_: you can only figure that maybe you didn't when someone objects

kim_: now we can actually tie that to RFA quite nicely...

kim_: so on requests for adminship (WP:RFA for people who want to find it quickly)

GofG: Really now?

GofG: Wow, lag, sec

kim_: people often challenge people's opinions don't they?

GofG: Yes

SynergeticMag: what seems to exist is the illusion of consensus, more like consensus until (fill in the blank/reason)

GofG: I remember on LV's RFA, people were annoyed that his name violated copyright laws

kim_: so do *support* opinions get challenged most, or do *oppose* opinions get challenged most? ;-)

kim_: SynergeticMag, *nod*

kim_: GofG, Oh wow

kim_: GofG, that might not have been a typical RFA

GofG: Hehe, it was fun to watch

SteveCrossin: ok

GofG: He had like 10,000 edits and knew exactly what he was doing

kim_: has everyone noticed this tendency to challenge opposes more than supports?

kim_: GofG, wow. Did he pass? :-P

GofG: Yeah, barely

GofG: But his name is "Lord Voldemort"

SynergeticMag: kim_: i've seen both, but usually it tends to go with the flow of an RfA, the trend i.e. herd mentality

kim_: incredible

GofG: come on rofl

SteveCrossin: whoa

kim_: He Who Must Not Be Named? ;-)

kim_: goodness, I'd oppose... obvious power-hunger there :-P

kim_: (just kidding ;-) )

kim_: SynergeticMag, you've seen people question supports as well?

SynergeticMag: of course

kim_: That's interesting to hear

SynergeticMag: i think it should be

kim_: SynergeticMag, typically when the majority is already opposed?

SynergeticMag: nope

kim_: Ok, very interesting

kim_: so do you all think it's appropriate to question a person's opinion?

SynergeticMag: there have been few and minor occasions when a supporter will not have a well thought out support

SynergeticMag: kim_: sure, why not?

SynergeticMag: if it lacks, it lacks, shouldn't matter if its a support or oppose

kim_:

kim_: well, we've been seeing some people say that you should leave a person to their opinions :-)

GofG: kim_: There is an excellent example currently on RFA

SynergeticMag: i do often ignore alot of pile on supports, but i'm speaking more about bad support rationale

kim_: but since we're working in a consensus system, discussing with opposers (and the occaisional support) is genrally a good idea

GofG: Lawrence Cohen's RFA, every single opposition has an entire conversation about it

GofG: while none of the supports have any comments on them whatsoever

SynergeticMag: i saw that

kim_: since there's an 80/20 bias, an oppose can be worth several supports, if you can negotiate with them and convince them to support you :-)

SynergeticMag: thats the actual trick there kim

SynergeticMag: "negotiate" can be seen as argumentitive

SynergeticMag: (sp?)

kim_: this is irc, spelling is secondary ;-)

SynergeticMag: lol

kim_: and if you're seen as too argumentative, that can lose you support, yup

GofG: So where's the balance?

SynergeticMag: the balance for consensus?

kim_: well, ideally, people wouldn't see it as being argumentative at all

SteveCrossin: ok im back

SteveCrossin: :/

kim_: but not everyone understands consensus systems, so there you have it ;-)

SteveCrossin:

kim_: by talking on irc, and later perhaps irl, one of my hopes is that the balance will shift towards more discussion

kim_: welcome back SteveCrossin, been working hard?

SynergeticMag: i agree, not everyone who participates in RfA (or even AfD's) always understands how things work

SteveCrossin: yeah i feel :/

SynergeticMag: and can obfuscate the entire process in a matter of seconds

kim_: SteveCrossin, I know how you feel. First block ever?

kim_: SynergeticMag, that quick? :-)

SteveCrossin: regarding to mediation, yea

SteveCrossin: other blocks, no

SteveCrossin: ive had lots blocked

kim_: SynergeticMag, maybe you'd like to list some examples later when we post the log

SteveCrossin: but never a mediation block

kim_: SteveCrossin, I see.

SteveCrossin: :/

kim_: SteveCrossin, doing good man. Chat with you about it later :-)

SynergeticMag: sure, if i have time, i unfortunately have to go to work soon

SteveCrossin: okay

*:    SteveCrossin listens to the wise scholar, kim_  ;)

kim_: SynergeticMag, well, perhaps we should stop in 20 minutes or so?

kim_: SteveCrossin, ahuh ;-)

kim_: me and wise, that'll be the day

SteveCrossin: lol

SteveCrossin: um

SteveCrossin: "since there's an 80/20 bias, an oppose can be worth several supports, if you can negotiate with them and convince them to support you"

kim_: SteveCrossin, yes?

SteveCrossin: sort of like ArbCom?

kim_: how's that?

SteveCrossin: where one oppose subtracts a support

*:    SteveCrossin is just thinking out loud

Seddon: this might sound a little farhetched) ok you could think about the battle for consensus as a kind of gorrilla warfare

Seddon: arfetched*

SteveCrossin: gorilla?

SteveCrossin: lol

Seddon: er :P

Seddon: nyway

SynergeticMag: actually, i don't have any example i can think of about confused consensus decisions regarding an RfA, what I actually meant was that inside of the consensus process, there tends to be opposes due to common misunderstandings

SynergeticMag: should have been more clear

SynergeticMag: apologies :)

GofG: guerilla, perhaps?

Seddon: hats even better

kim_: well

Seddon: mean sometimes it is often only one or two people fighting a corner

Seddon: nd they may have very serious points

kim_: Seddon, and later?

*:    kim_ listens

*:    SteveCrossin lets Seddon speak

SynergeticMag: but seldom our their points abuse of tools, or policy concerns

SynergeticMag: just minor nit picking

SynergeticMag: POV opposes

Seddon: his isnt just related to RfA its a wider problem

SynergeticMag: WP:IDONTLIKEIT

SynergeticMag: well it sparked from it Seddon

SynergeticMag: a spark gives birth to flames :)

SteveCrossin: WP:PAULINE

SteveCrossin: XD

Seddon: ery true

SteveCrossin: Pauline Hanson

kim_: right

SteveCrossin: sorry :P

kim_: how to deal with fighting like that might be an interesting topic for a later lecture

Seddon: greed :P

kim_: we might ask one of the current or old mediation cabal coordinators (or the medcom coordinator) to speak on that :-)

Seddon: ll let you get back on topic :p

kim_: I'll just go do some more 101 on policy

kim_: and show ye olde consensus chart

kim_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Consensus_new_and_old.svg

kim_: this one differs somewhat from consensus process used IRL

kim_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Consensus-flowchart.png

kim_: which looks more like this

kim_: the reason for this is that wikipedia is online, and a wiki

kim_: ;-)

SteveCrossin: heh

SteveCrossin: concerns raised -->block

SteveCrossin: thats what happened today :/

GofG: Why would that make a difference?

kim_: awww

kim_: GofG, That's a good question, and one which I don't have a full answer to yet :-)

kim_: something I'm still learning about myself

SteveCrossin: its gonna be harder now, but anyway, that can be discussed later :)

SteveCrossin: kim learning? :o

*:    SteveCrossin thought kim_  already knew everything

kim_: the main reason i can figure is that we already have a structure in which we can hold our discussions

Lucifer_Cat:  if he doesnt soon, we'll make sure hes kim_burning

kim_: SteveCrossin, no one knows everything ;-)

kim_: not anymore anyway

Lucifer_Cat:  kim_: gandalf does.

Lucifer_Cat:  ok did.

SteveCrossin: LOL

kim_: I used to have a friend who boasted she knew all wikipedia policy by heart

SteveCrossin: and..

kim_: but that was 2 years ago or so, and she's now no longer boasting ;-)

Lucifer_Cat:  heh, didnt have anything better to do?

kim_: LOL, she was on medcab, and later on arbcom :-)

kim_: hence

Lucifer_Cat:  medical cabinet?

SteveCrossin: LOL

kim_: Lucifer_Cat, mediation cabal, sorry WP:MEDCAB

kim_: and arbcom is arbitration committee WP:ARBCOM

Lucifer_Cat:  im sure its not cabal

kim_: I use the famous abbreviations too often :-P

*:    SynergeticMag says he should have tossed a link out

kim_: Lucifer_Cat, not sekrit enough? ;-)

SteveCrossin: TINC!!

kim_: SynergeticMag, goforit! ;-)

kim_: anyway

kim_: on a wiki we try to write everything in DocumentMode first ... hang on, that's a trickier link

Lucifer_Cat:  We cannot confirm or deny our existence.

SynergeticMag: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:DISPUTE

Lucifer_Cat:  lol

SynergeticMag: i decided to toss out the whole process

SynergeticMag: (the link to it mind you)

kim_: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?DocumentMode

kim_: and also http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?DocumentMode

kim_: Ok, so main wiki pages are in documentmode

*:    Pilotguy is now known as Pilotguy_aw

kim_: while talk opages are threadmode

kim_: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ThreadMode

kim_: documentmode is basically a wikipedia article, or a policy page

kim_: while threadmode is what our discussion pages look like

kim_: on some wikis, there are no separate talk pages

kim_: and you're supposed to refactor thread mode into document mode

*:    Pilotguy_aw is now known as Pilotguy

Seddon: s an off point i considered renaming MedCab, to MadCab

Seddon: ut thats a different matter

kim_: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhatIsRefactoring

kim_: Seddon, :P

kim_: so our consensus process is based on trying to work on documentmode first, and then falling back to threadmode if it fails

kim_: if you see the flowchart, you'll see two cycles

*:    Sniperz11 (n=a@155.69.177.146) has joined #wikipedia-en-lectures

kim_: and indeed, the right hand one stays in documentmode (constant edits to the page)

kim_: while the left hand cycle refers to what happens when people start reverting

kim_: Hi Sniperz11

kim_: we just were talking about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Consensus_new_and_old.svg

kim_: alright

kim_: so we've covered some basics today...

kim_: was any of this new or enlightening?

*:    kim_ hopes so :-)

kim_: else I'll have to make the next lecture much harder somehow :-P

Sniperz11:    hello

kim_: Now there's one thing I'd briefly like to discuss :-)

Sniperz11:    thanks for informing me

Seddon: think that its something that go on kim_

kim_: Seddon, fair enough :-)

kim_: Sniperz11, we're finishing for today, though we'll be there again same time next week

kim_: Sniperz11, and we'll have a log put up later today as well

Sniperz11:    thanks

kim_: Okay, so you know that you're supposed to make edits that will gain consensus

kim_: else you might get accused of vandalism or whatnot?

kim_: I think everyone already knew that much

kim_: has anyone ever tried to predict what consensus would be ahead of time, and then made edits based on that *prediction* ? :-)

kim_: show of hands? :-)

GofG: I haven't >.<

*:    SteveCrossin raises hand

Sniperz11:    I tried...

kim_: Sniperz11, what happened? :-)

kim_: SteveCrossin, Cool :-)

Sniperz11:    I tried a few times to edit based on what I thought would be the consensus

SteveCrossin: in mediations

kim_: Sniperz11, what happened when you did that?

Sniperz11:    but usually, it would be rv'ed till consensus was set

Sniperz11:    i dont remember

kim_: SteveCrossin, it does seem to come up there a lot, doesn't it?

SteveCrossin: yea

Sniperz11:    must have been about 4-5 months ago

kim_: Sniperz11, Interesting. There is a group on wikipedia that does work that way too.

SteveCrossin: but

SteveCrossin: generally

kim_: Sniperz11, I don't typically agree with them ... ;-)

Sniperz11:    hehe

*:    kim_ might invite someone to give a lecture about that particular method too

SteveCrossin: global consensus outweghs local concensus, right?

Sniperz11:    I gave up on that method after that.

kim_: SteveCrossin, in general, yes

Sniperz11:    Now, i'm a strictly consensus guy

SteveCrossin: yeah in general

kim_: Sniperz11, that's too bad, it actually works fairly well.

Sniperz11:    no non-consensual edits

kim_: Sniperz11, I see. that's actually not too good

kim_: Sniperz11, if you edit based on predicted consensus, or based on your preference, that's how you reach consensus quickest

Sniperz11:    yes...

kim_: so how can you find predicted consensus?

Sniperz11:    I'm sure waiting for consensus isn't the best idea for active pages, rite?

Sniperz11:    I usually edit pages where we have a small clique of active editors... about 5-10

kim_: well, I guess that's where some of the discussion at "what ignore all rules means" (at WP:WIARM ) is about

kim_: Sniperz11, we just discussed that you can wait forever for consensus to come along. :-) You have to make consensus yourself

Sniperz11:    hehe... yes. like I said, in pages i usually edit, there are a few active editors, so the discussion is quite fast

kim_: basically, try to discover what people have already been thinking about the topic. Check policy pages, talk pages, discussions on user talk pages, and maybe meatball and wardwiki

kim_: Sniperz11, and most pages work that way

kim_: Sniperz11, there are only a couple of very busy ages. Maybe 4000 out of 2000 000 around now

Sniperz11:    yes

kim_: we need to do some new statistics :-)

kim_: when we last looked it was 1000 out of 1M (so I'm doubling my estimate to be on the safe side)

Sniperz11:    hmm...

kim_: so final questions for the day... was today useful to you? And what should be discussed at the next lectures?

Seddon: R

kim_: the mediators would like to hear more about DR ;-)

kim_: right

kim_: other folks?

Sniperz11:    could we have a bit of discussion about images and the related issues

*:    kim_ wonders if I've bored half the folks here to death

kim_: Images? Interesting

kim_: Oh yes, all the different laws and licenses

kim_: it's probably not obvious to new people. :-)

Sniperz11:    not just the copyrights, but something about cleaning up images

Sniperz11:    croping

Sniperz11:    etc

kim_: you mean image tutorials?

*:    SteveCrossin writes FURs for 24 images :P

Sniperz11:    sort of

SteveCrossin: so theyre not deleted

kim_: That's maybe a bit outside the scope of these particular talks

kim_: well they're outside the scope I thought of

Sniperz11:    ok... no problem.

kim_: if you can find others also interested in that kind of stuff, we could discuss :-)

kim_: Sniperz11, well, I'm open to the idea :-)

Sniperz11:    I was just thinkin aloud.

kim_: I haven't done gimp or photoshop tutorials in ages :-)

kim_: GofG, kibble, Lucifer_Cat , Pilotguy , SteveCrossin , ST47 , snowolf , SynergeticMag , theoB , White_Cat   ? Any comments?

SteveCrossin: uh

SteveCrossin: on what :P

White_Cat:    ?

*:    Lucifer_Cat suddenly jolts up... um yes.. err... 42~

*:    SteveCrossin is writing FURs

*:    kibble hasn't been paying attention

White_Cat:    42

kibble: orry :-(

kim_: hehehe

kim_: I put y'all to sleep?

White_Cat:    not really

Lucifer_Cat:  kim_: its the name of the chan

Pilotguy:     hmm good work today ;)

SynergeticMag: i'm not good on image conversations :)

kim_: kibble, what kind of exciting lecture can we have next time, that's sure to stir up controversy on en.wikipedia? ;-)

SteveCrossin: 42

SteveCrossin: Lucifer_Cat: LOL

Sniperz11:    CABAL!!!!

Sniperz11:    ;-P

kim_: Lucifer_Cat,

kibble: im_: why jimmy is unfit for godkink

*:    kibble hides

kibble: -P

White_Cat:    kim_ I am easy to distract

kibble: ing...*

kim_: Sniperz11, we can do some more discussion about how and why the cabal operates

kim_: and what the cabal is

*:    Pilotguy (n=ThetaXi@wikinews/pilotguy) has left #wikipedia-en-lectures ("Time makes no sense")

Lucifer_Cat:  thanks kim_  for bringing back the memories of college

kim_: kibble, oooooohhhhh, that sounds scary ;-)

kibble: -D

kim_: Lucifer_Cat, you're welcome, I hope I was a lot less boring than the professors ;-)

GofG: Thanks, kim_, for possibly giving me an insight into what college is like

Lucifer_Cat:  kim_: i wish i could say that.

kim_: I think we did the best we could for an initial talk :-)

Lucifer_Cat:  but you lost me at trifectas

kim_: Lucifer_Cat, Ouch! you should have yelled man :-)

Lucifer_Cat:  kidding

kim_: Lucifer_Cat, the idea is to speak up if I've lost you, so we can keep you in the loop and adjust the program

kim_: will you all be coming back next week?

kim_: GofG, college is much more boring, often, except MIT or so :-P

Lucifer_Cat:  heh, im always online, just ping me, i'll come over if im within earshot

Sniperz11:    I'll try... I've got exams coming up

Lucifer_Cat:  kim_: MIT can be very very boring too

Sniperz11:    I'll stay on freenode the whole day for that day

kim_: heh

kim_: just be online at 15:00 UTC :-)

kim_: what's that in EST?

kim_: around 11 am I think?

GofG: Yeah

Sniperz11:    UTC = GMT right??

kim_: UTC is the new name for GMT since the start of the century or so, yup

kim_: you can also check the current time in UTC by looking at the recent changes page

kim_: wikipedia time is UTC ;-)

Sniperz11:    oh ok. thanks. thats 11 pm for me then

kim_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges

kim_: 11 pm?

kim_: you're somewhere east-ish?

Sniperz11:    Singapore

kim_: if that's late for you we can shift the time back slightly

Sniperz11:    nah...

kim_: I've been told Singapore is a nice place, la? :-)

Sniperz11:    I'm usually awake nights

Sniperz11:    its nice for tourists

*:    kim_ wants to visit a friend there soon. :-)

kim_: Sniperz11, are you any good at singlish? ;-)

Sniperz11:    U've got a friend in me (which is the song i'm listening to now, coincidentally)

Sniperz11:    i'm ok

kim_: LOL

kim_: cool :-)

Sniperz11:    I can understand it a bit...

Sniperz11:    mostly Hokkien (dialect of Chinese)

*:    ST47 has quit ("leaving")

kim_: I see

Sniperz11:    and since i'm an expat, I dont usually speak it

kim_: Sniperz11, where are you expat from?

*:    kim_ is curious

Sniperz11:    imagine an Indian guy trying to talk Singlish...

kim_: LOL

Sniperz11:    I tried a few times,

kim_: I've heard of paki girls doing it, so why not indian guys? :-)

Sniperz11:    the people around me couldn't stop laughing

kim_: ROTFL

kim_: isn't that the point? ;-)

Sniperz11:    I guess so.

Sniperz11:    :-D

kim_: depends on your accent a bit though, I suppose

Sniperz11:    yes...

kim_: alright

Sniperz11:    I roll my Rs a lot... and my O sounds like Wo...

Sniperz11:    so you can imagine

kim_: I think I can!

kim_: alright

kim_: let's wrap it up

kim_: everyone back here same time same place next time around?

Sniperz11:    sure

kim_: Cool

*:    kim_ pokes the rest

kim_: I think it's much more fun to edit-war over WP:IAR than doing lectures

kim_: I'll have to think of something crazy to draw more attention next time :-P

kim_: Have a nice lunch, evening, or afternoon all!

kim_: )

kim_: logs will be posted later today