Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-02-19 Is Puerto Rico a nation?

Request Information

 * Request made by: Algr 06:24, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Where is the issue taking place?
 * ...Talk:Puerto Rican Spindalis


 * Who's involved?
 * ... Myself Algr on one side, and Nnfolz] and Tony the Marine on the other.


 * What's going on?
 * ... I spotted a reference to "the national bird of Puerto Rico." in an article about birds. I thought that this could leave casual readers with the mistaken impression that Puerto Rico is a sovereign state. (a common misperception.) So I changed it to "the official bird of Puerto Rico." to sidestep the problem.  To my surprise, this blew up into a huge debate about referendums, history, the definition of "nation" and a spanish dictionary as "the most official" place to look up an english word.  There were also lots of reverts, and some name calling and accusations.


 * ''What would you like to change about that?
 * ... It is only the three of us in the discussion, so I'm hoping for some outside opinions to add perspective. Nnfolz & Tony the Marine seem to have strong opinions on Puerto Rico, and can't seem to accept that I don't - I'm just concerned about miscommunication.


 * If you'd prefer we work discreetly, how can we reach you?
 * ...Is the wiki messaging okay? (I'm new to this. ) Or you could give me an e-mail address and I'll write you.

Comments by others
I would like to add that I, the creator of the article, am also involved in the dispute. I do not argue whether Puerto Rico is a sovereign nation or not. Puerto Rico is without a doubt not a sovereign nation. My demand is that Puerto Rico be given equal treatment as Taiwan. Taiwan is not a sovereign nation but its official bird appears on the list of national birds. I would like that either none appear on the list or that both remain but with equal status. As it stands Puerto Rico appears under United States while Taiwan does not appear under China. Joelito 15:11, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * But Taiwan is a sovereign nation because no other nation can exert any real political control over it. Puerto Ricans don't want that, they vote for the status quo, with US statehood coming in a close second.  The article is supposed to be about birds, not PR's political status, so why can't we use language that side-steps the issue?  Algr 16:29, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * If Taiwan is sovereign why isn't it listed here, List of sovereign states? It appears under "Limited recognized states". Again I only ask for equality. Joelito 20:49, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
 * See my response below. IIRC, Taiwan is independent, is it not?  Sceptr e  ( Talk  ) 20:59, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

It is sad that such a graet article as the Puerto Rican Spindalis should be converted into a controversial political issue as to wheather Puerto Rico is a nation or not. Puerto Rico is not a sovereign nation, however Puerto Ricans share a common language (it has its' own Spanish dialect which is different from the other Hispanic countries), customs, culture, history and traditions and therefore it is a "nation" as defined in various forums. Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913): Nation \Na"tion\, n. [F. nation, L. natio nation, race, orig., a being born, fr. natus, p. p. of nasci, to be born, for gnatus, gnasci, from the same root as E. kin. [root]44. See Kin kindred, and cf. Cognate, Natal, Native.] '''"1. (Ethnol.) A part, or division, of the people of the earth, distinguished from the rest by common descent, language, or institutions; a race; a stock. All nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues --Rev. vii. 9.", FWDP "NATION: A self-identifying people who share a common history, often language, a common culture and a homeland. A nation is the most persistent and resistant organization of people-culture- territory. There are between 7,000 and 10,000 nations.", and the Free Online Dictionary by Fralax sec 3: " A people who share common customs, origins, history and frequently language, a nationality."''' There are various nations within the United States, amongst them the "Cherokee Nation", the "Navajo Nation" and the "Chickasaw Nation", they, like Puerto Rico, are not independent but, non-the less are a nation.  Before Puerto Rico became a posession of the United States, it was already a nation in the process of obtaining more autonomy from Spain.  Let me point out that Puerto Rico participates as a nation in the Olympics and that Puerto Rico's Basketball team is known as "El Equipo Nacional de Puerto Rico" (The National Basketball Team of Puerto Rico).  There are many verifiable websites which site the Puerto Rican Spindalis as the National Bird of Puerto Rico these some of the many sites: "www.welcome.topuertorico.org", "www.Enciclografica.com" and "www.puertoricoinfo.com - Geography". This should not be a big deal. The facts stated clearly shows that Puerto Rico is a "Nation" (not an independent one) and that the Puerto Rican Spindalis is the Puerto Rican National Bird. This my opinion which is not based on politics but, on cited facts. Thank you Tony the Marine 23:12, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Puerto Rico is a member of the IOC and FIFA, and fields "national" teams to the Olympics and World Cup qualifiers. On the other hand, Taiwan is not independent country (since a Taiwanese declaration of independence would almost certainly trigger war with China, it would be hard to miss). Actually Puerto Rico's status is more distinctive that that of Native American nations, since no one is discussing independence for the Cherokee or Navajo nations. Guettarda 04:01, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I know I may sound redundant but I wanna state (again) that Puerto Rico is a nation (it matters not if he agress of not), just not an independent one. I also trough this forum ask Algr to stop adding/removing content from articles based on his (and posibly his mom's) political ideas. Nnfolz 15:50, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Just wanted to offer a point of vew from someone who was not been a part of the discussion up to this point. Regardless of which obscure definition of the word nation one might whish to point to, the fact of the matter is that when most English speaking people see the word nation, they assume a meaning that implies an independent country (ie the United States, Canada, Chile, etc). Comparing the situation of Taiwan to this article is irrelevant. The demand of equal treatment with Taiwan is an attempt at using Wikipedia as a soapbox, which is NOT what Wikipedia is (see WP:NOT.) --Hetar 03:49, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Greetings and welcome. I agree that the comparions with taiwan is irrelevant. The problem here is that we are talking about a word with more than one meaning. Take for instace the word 'light'. When I hear the word I mainly think of ilumination, but since it can have more than one meaning it is correct to use it as the opposit of 'heavy'. The use of the word nation is not incorrect because one (actually more than one) meaning fromt he word aplies to Puerto Rico. Think about it and let me know your opinion.Nnfolz 03:13, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

This not about what English speaking people may assume but, what is. The definition of an "independent state" being a nation has as much weight as the definition that "A people who share common customs, origins, history and frequently language are a nation". According to your statement, then the Native-American Nations in the U.S. are "not" nations because they aren't independent. Tony the Marine 06:20, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


 * So you are claiming the right to dictate to the entire English speaking world what their own language means? You are going to be arguing for a long, long time. Algr 00:27, 26 February 2006 (UTC)


 * No, that is what you're doing. The dictionary very clearly supports our view that Puerto Rico is a nation. It is you that still fails to answer a key question: Since when ALL aceptions in a dictionary have to apply to ONE use of the word?Nnfolz 19:05, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Mediator response

 * Puerto Rico isn't independent, as far as I can see (politics isn't my strong point), so it should be given the same treatment as Taiwan. I suggest holding a poll on the talk page to vote on the inclusion or non-inclusion of the two states, but treat them the same  Sceptr  e  ( Talk  ) 15:25, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * (See above about Taiwan.) I worry that a poll is just going to turn into a question of who can round up the most political allies - and that would be the independentistas, since I don't know any bands of bird watchers or linguists. Algr 17:44, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I said politics wasn't my strong point. As Taiwan is an independent nation, then it should stay. Peurto Rico isn't sovereign, so it should be labelled as an "official" bird, not a "national" bird.  Sceptr e  ( Talk  ) 18:44, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Puerto Rico is not sovereing nation, but it still a nation. Nowhere in the definition is stated that you HAVE to be sovereing to be a nation. The definition is quite flexible in that matter and fits Puerto Rico. please check this link out: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=nation and look at definition #3 and tell me what you think. Nnfolz 13:29, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I am aware of that definition.  Sceptr e  ( Talk  ) 17:45, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm puzzled. You say your aware of the definition, but you still insist it should be labeled 'official' and not 'national'? Please clarify this for me. Nnfolz 21:18, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps because it is not the ONLY definition of "nation". If a woman is watching a marathon, and gets a run in her pantyhose, she has not "run the marathon".  There is more then one definition of "run" and some valid definitions are not acceptable in certain contexts.  Similarly there is more then one definition of "Nation".  The Puerto Rican people form a nation, but more of us live in the continental US then live on the island of Puerto Rico.   The island and its government are not a nation.  The context of "official bird" is something that must be chosen by a government, so a bird chosen by the government of Puerto Rico would be "commonwealth", and not "national".  Algr 07:41, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Allow me to break this down:
 * 1.Answer me this: since when all of the aceptions in the dictionary apply to a single word? Since when it is required to happen?
 * Doesn't the "Run" example I just gave you demonstrate this perfectly? You're just not listening. Algr 21:40, 23 February 2006 (UTC) 
 * You're example is not valid because the definition of nation I'm giving is valid in the contezt i'm using it.Nnfolz 18:37, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * 2.Puerto Rico fits under at least 2 of the meanings of the word 'nation' therefore it is a nation.
 * 3.Question: what does this statement has to do with anything: "more of us live in the continental US then live on the island of Puerto Rico"? First it has nothing to do with the topic at hand and second is wrong on so many levels. Check your sources before posting since posting false statements that have nothing to o with the subect we are discussing... well... let's just say it hurst your credibility...
 * 4.Commonwealth is a political status shared by many countries and a word not in everyday use is kind of like 'republic'. Your don't say 'republican bird of X country', you say national bird. You dont say 'commonwealth bird of Y country', you say national bird. Puerto Rico is a nation, just not a sovereing one AND also a commonwealth (wich is not te correct translation for the actual status, since we really are a colony). But since you insist on calling it a commonwealth I have to ask you: Would you consider Canada to be a nation? what about Australia? Both of those countries are commonwealths. Look it up.
 * I ask of you again to base arguments on facts and not political ideas (wich seem to be based on wrong statements by the way). This is an encyclopedia a not a essay where you can charge the wording to reflect your political ideas. It's kind of funny that even the most fanatical individuals acept that fact (both right wing and left wing parties) and you cant even tough your presented with irrefutable evidence. Sad, sad indead...


 * O.K. Algrs and all those interested. Prove without a doubt that Puerto Rico is "not" a nation as defined.  Do not use the fact that it isn't "independent" or that it is  a "Commonwealth".  That does not prove anything.  Show and site any official document that specificly states that Puerto Rico is not a "nation", otherwise stop the political issue and let's put an end to all of this nonsense.  Tony the Marine 18:06, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Prove to me that you are not a Goldfish. Do not use the fact that you are "human" and can "speak english".  That does not prove anything.  Show and site any official document that specificly states that Tony the Marine is not a goldfish.  -  See?  It is impossible to prove anything to someone who redefines the words to suit his position, and ignores the proof already posted.  It doesn't matter what you convince yourself that "nation" means.  What matters is what the average person assumes when reading the phrase "national bird".  Further discussion is pointless.  Algr 21:40, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Are goldfish able to write, Algr? Antonio Mi pais, Puerto Rico!! Martin


 * Closed. A right balls I've made :(  Sceptr e  ( Talk  ) 16:09, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

==== We have a ruling from  Sceptr e  of the Mediation Cabal, so I am going to change the article to reflect it. If either of you change it back yet again, I'll refer you to discipline. Algr 21:40, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Mediators do not make binding rulings - they get the participants to sort out their problems amicably. In the absence of that, we work by majority opinion, which is this case favours "nation".  Guettarda 21:45, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Is that how Wikipedia works? Okay, then I'll round up a bunch of my friends then...  Algr 23:36, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * No, that would be meatpuppetry. Guettarda 02:41, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Precisely my point. Only two of you had any input on this article before this started.  Who else knew a Spindalis from a sparrow before then, and who just came here to promote PR nationalism?  THAT's meatpuppetry.  And that is why a simple poll is unacceptable.  If you want to say "nation" then YOU are the one who has to provide research to back that up.  The only research you have done is to repeat one definition from a dictionary over and over while ignoring the one right next to it that plainly says you are wrong. And then you talk to me about standards for an "encyclopedic article"? Algr 05:28, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I found my way to the Spindalis page on my own, and from there to here. I was not recruited in any way.
 * I know more about Puerto Rican birds than I do about Puerto Rican nationalism
 * I have provided evidence in support of the idea - membership of the IOC and FIFA is restricted to national entities. I have not said a single word about dictionary definitions (not that a dicdef isn't a valid source for the meaning of a term), but rather on a functional definition, so I have no idea what you are talking about.  Guettarda 08:48, 24 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Algr: I've already provided evidence to back up my claim. WHat evidence have you provided to support yours? Your mom's political ideas? I'm sorry but that doesn't count. Also please clarify this for me: are you arguing agaisnt the dictionary now? Nnfolz 06:36, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * It's my first case, and I've made a royal balls of it. Sorry. Sceptr e  ( Talk  ) 22:32, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Your first case, and you end up facing the whole Puerto Rican independence movement. Cruel fate!  Algr 23:03, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Its sadder to speak with blind PNP's who scream Tito, tito! when he boxes an American guy. They may as well root for the American instead. Antonio Mi Nacion Martin.
 * Algr: your saying that you don't want to turn this into a political debate and here you are assinging parties to people. Correct me if I'm wrong but that is a HUGE contradiction and an act of desperation from your part.Nnfolz 19:02, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Request for a consensus

 * First of all, when this debate started, the parties involved were "not" notified in their User pages. This clearly gave Algrs the advantage over the others.  Second  the mediator has not responded to the opinions stated by the parties involved.  His response came about before the others had an opportunity to express themselves.  Third a consensus, which was the main objective of this page was not reached.  Therefore, Guettarda and myself as administrators request that the article stay "as is" until a proper consensus is reached and that all those interested are properly notified of such action. Tony the Marine 02:33, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * And how will you choose who is interested and who isn't? I see no way to get the attention of anyone without an existing agenda about Puerto Rico.  This should not be about Puerto Rico, but about proper usage of English, and the implications made by the phrase "national bird".  Algr 05:35, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Interestiong quote you said there: "This should not be about Puerto Rico, but about proper usage of English". I could not agree with you more. Puero Rico is a nation (please read my last post, where I breack everything down) and the only reason you oppose that word are personal therefore not valid for an encyclopedia. I wonder what's next. Are you going to change the article about La borinqueña because it should not be listed as the national anthem? Please stop avoiding arguments and sustain your points. Until then, until you can prove without a doubt that Puerto Rico is not in fact a nation (although every dictionary both in english and spanish contradicts that) the wording should stay. Why? because is the correct word to use Nnfolz 13:38, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Puerto Rico is a nation. You can recite this prayer over and over again, but it doesn't change the fact that you will never find a dictionary definition that does not prominently include Nation= sovereign state. You can't expect everyone else to ignore this just because you find it inconvenient.  What if the WWE's "Nation of Domination" decided to make the Spindalis their national bird?  Would you simply include them as equivalent to Puerto Rico?  I hope not, but where do you draw the line? Algr 23:58, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Again I tell you that not all definitions have to apply. Take for example the word 'light'. It can reffer to a source of ilumination or it can be the oposite of heavy. I as you: does it have to be both? NO. The same goes with nation. One of the definition says: "A self-identifying people who share a common history, often language, a common culture and a homeland" Puerto Rico fits that description therfore it is a nation. I ask for you to tell me where does it state that you have to be sovergeing to be a nation since in all the dictionaries I could find, that part is missing.Nnfolz 07:11, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Sadly, he who doesn't want others to impose their views on the topic, tries to impose his view. Algr is a PNP reventao. And I admire some PNP's (I wrote about Pedro Rossello, Ramon Luis Rivera, Alejandro Cruz), but Algr doesn't know the United Nations lists Puerto Rico an "unincorporated nation', the key word there being NATION. Besides, Rossello himself admitted recently he doesnt think the United States want statehood for Puerto Rico, now he is searching for a "Hispanic state" status. Tjis is an undeniable fact. PNP voters usually are mislead by the idea that if Puerto Rico becomes a state, we will have the same economic status as the rest of the states, when Bush himself has expressed he wants independence for Puerto Rico. Is Puerto Rico a nation? Well, let's see, we have our NATIONAL basketball team, our NATIONAL soccer team, we have two former NATIONAL airlines, we have the WBC's NATIONAL Puerto Rican boxing championship, and we have a himno NACIONAL. What do you think "La Borinquena" should be called, Algrs? The territorial song??? Does Arizona have a national anthem? NOPE. I guess Puerto Rico is a nation then. Antonio Boricua y Latino 100% Martin
 * Algr is a PNP reventao I have no idea what this means. And clearly you still have no idea what I am objecting to.  All you can see is a reflection of yourselves.  I am sorry I offended your pride in a very beautiful land and it's worthy people - this was not my intention. I was making what seemed to me to be a minor technical point to avoid a potential misreading of the article.  I never expected to ignite such a firestorm.  Algr 10:01, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Algr, this is wikipedia. There will be tons of arguments here. The nature of our website actually provockes that, we all get used to it. But the argument is whether Puerto Rico is a nation..well, answer me then, why do they call La Borinquena our himno nacional? Antonio Mona Martin

About Taiwan
Concerning this comparison: The situation in Taiwan is even stranger then I recalled. The government now that rules Taiwan once ruled all of China except Taiwan. They regained control of Taiwan after WW2, but then the Communist revolution drove them off the mainland. They fled to the island (with the chinese Navy, I presume) and the Communists could not peruse them. So they do consider themselves to be a nation - they consider themselves to be China! Obviously the Communists don't agree with this opinion - both governments consider themselves to be the only legal rulers of all China including Taiwan.

This situation is so unlike Puerto Rico that on the surface it would seem not worth mentioning. However the international reaction to all this could be useful to us. All nations (particularly the US.) when dealing with the region must always use language that avoids the question of what exactly the status of Taiwan is. Why don't we try that? Perhaps treating PR like Taiwan was the solution after all. Algr 23:58, 25 February 2006 (UTC)