Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-04-19 List of Indian Americans

Mediation Case: 2006-04-19 List of Indian Americans
Please observe Etiquette and Talk Page Etiquette in disputes. If you submit complaints or insults your edits are likely to be removed by the mediator, any other refactoring of the mediation case by anybody but the mediator is likely to be reverted. If you are not satisfied with the mediation procedure please submit your complaints to Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal.

Request Information

 * Request made by: Indorunner 16:35, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_Indian_Americans
 * Where is the issue taking place?

Indorunner and somebody without a username, at the following IP address: 150.135.162.X (see the history for the above listed article)
 * Who's involved?


 * What's going on?

The two sides:

The individual at IP address: 150.135.162.X keeps adding two names on the list on the page. Indorunner believes that these two names should not be there. Reasons below.

The criteria for inclusion, posted on the page, are: Criteria 1. ...famous, have made significant contributions to the American culture or society politically, artistically or scientifically, or have appeared in the news numerous times: Criteria 2. By Americans we are referring to citizens of the United States of America, and not to persons living in either the North American or South American continents.

Indorunner contends that the two names that are incorrectly being placed on the list by user at IP address: 150.135.162.X are:

Sunny Leone Angela Devi

(a) Both names do not fit Criteria 1.

(b) Furthermore, Sunny Leone does not fit Criteria 2. As per wikipedia instructions, it is not "verifiable" that Sunny Leone is an American Citizen. All available Google information points to the fact that Sunny is a Canadian citizen, living in America. That clearly clashes with criteria 2 above.

User at IP address: 150.135.162.X contends that these names are being removed because folks are "jerks" and "prudes" and offended by the fact that Sunny Leone & Angela Devi are in the pornographic industry. Insults aside, this reasoning is false. Let's take an example of Jenna Jameson. Were she of Indian origin, she would make the list in a heart beat because she would easily satisfy criteria 1. She's famous, and she has become a major cultural item. Sunny Leone & Angela Devi have a long ways to go before they hit that level of fame and contribution to American Society and Culture (Criteria 1).

On a side note, I'm not sure if this violates Wikipedia rules or not, but the user at IP address: 150.135.162.X insists on insults and name calling when making entries on the discussion board and history page. For example, calling community members "jerks" and "prudes". See the discussion and history boards for the article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_Indian_Americans for examples of this. One can only assume that they feel the need to be so unprofessional because the facts do not support their claims.

Have Sunny Leone and Angela Devi removed from the list, until such time as they satisfy criteria 1 & 2 above, as the others on the list have done.
 * ''What would you like to change about that?

Discussion on this page, in public, is fine. You can also reach me on my email as well, for any reason.
 * If you'd prefer we work discreetly, how can we reach you?

Yes, for sure.
 * Would you be willing to be a mediator yourself, and accept a mediation assignment in a different case?


 * This is, following the Categorical Imperative, the idea that you might want to do
 * what you expect others to do. You don't have to, of course, that's why it's a question.



Mediator response
Hello, there. It appears I have been assigned to this case. Cowman109Talk 19:12, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

First of all, No personal attacks should be looked at by all involved (whether you commited any personal attacks or not - it can be for reference purposes). As it explains, personal attacks only make situations escalate.

Now, on to the issue. As the lines at the bottom of the page read: "By Americans we are referring to citizens of the United States of America, and not to persons living in either the North American or South American continents," if this criteria is agreed upon then the user adding these names should give reasoning for adding the names of these people. The criteria most easily proved would be citizenship - if no evidence of citizenship is found, then the given name would not fit in the list.

"(b) Furthermore, Sunny Leone does not fit Criteria 2. As per wikipedia instructions, it is not "verifiable" that Sunny Leone is an American Citizen.  All available Google information points to the fact that Sunny is a Canadian citizen, living in America.  That clearly clashes with criteria 2 above."

If there is no evidence that Sunny Leone is an American citizen, then she automatically should not be listed as per the criteria. The first step here would be determining that.

As for Angela Devi, it appears she was born in the United States which I believe would be evidence that she is an American Citizen. As for her fitting Criteria 1 ("...famous, have made significant contributions to the American culture or society politically, artistically or scientifically, or have appeared in the news numerous times"), she appears to have no widescale impact on people other than being a model. There are thousands and thousands of models, and listing each and every one of them would clutter Wikipedia. Unless evidence can be brought up showing she impacted society, I don't believe Angela Devi should be listed on the page. The only note of her being known to the public is the uncertainty of her death, which in itself is not enough for someone to impact society.

Therefore, the best bet would be to contact 150.135.162.X and have them come to this page and speak down below in the discussion section in order to give evidence for these two people fitting the criteria (or in the talk page, whichever works best). His or her IP changes it seems, so that might be a bit difficult. If contact cannot be made with this user, an informal group could likely not solve much as this would merely turn into a revert war. In the event of that, the people to see would be those who can officially solve disputes. Cowman109Talk 19:12, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Update: 04:57, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

As it stands now, no evidence has been given asserting that Angela Devi should be in the list of Indian Americans, but there is recognition for Sunny Leone. However, the fact that Sunny Leone is an American citizen is disputed. And still no word from 150.135.162.X, who is important in this case. Cowman109Talk 04:57, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

===Proposed solution===

It seems not enough information has been provided to fit the criteria for either of these people. For Angela Devi there are no notes of impacting society in any way, and while Sunny Leone has some recognition, her status as a citizen is unclear. My proposal would then be to keep Angela Devi removed from the list and have Sunny Leone moved to the talk page until someone can confirm her citizenship. Cowman109Talk 16:16, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Update 01:58, 25 April 2006 (UTC) More information has been provided by the 150.135.xxx.xxx user in question, so I am awaiting a response by Indorunner. Cowman109Talk 01:58, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Indorunner Hi Cowman109 -- quick question for you. I just want to follow protocol. Where on this page should i insert my comments to rebut arguments for the inclusion of Sunny Leone and Angela Devi? Do I put my comments below or above each argument that I have evidence/comments for opposing view, or save for a summary at the end, etc? Just want to do the right thing and not mess up this page :)
 * Sorry for the delayed response. There isn't much protocol as this is all an informal process, but I made room down at the bottom under the General Discussion section to speak. Cowman109Talk 21:37, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Indorunner ok, thanks. i'll just try my best to be neat :) Please feel free to ask if what i'm responding to is not clear.

Update 00:34, 30 April 2006 (UTC) It seems inevitable that my opinion will have to come out here, so I'll say what, from what evidence we have, I think should be done. There appears to be hazy, unclear evidence on whether Sunny Leone is a citizen of the United States or not. If information is found proving she is, I would think she fits the criteria for being on the list. Being a 'Pet of the Year' would mean that she has quite a bit of recognition in the United States.

As for Angela Devi, he citizenship is not contested, but it appears she has only been interviewed once or twice in local, Asian news sources. Her impact on American society appears to still be questionable.

Therefore, I'd like to know what 150.135.xxx.xxx feels about moving Sunny and Angela to the talk page of List_of_Indian_Americans, requesting that information on Sunny's citizenship be provided, along with information on Angela's work in the United States. Cowman109Talk 00:34, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Update 19:45, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

In the interest of time, I have requested information about Sunny Leone and Angela Devi in the talk page of the page in question. There is not much more that can be done in terms of mediation as the solution in this appears to be finding evidence. Closing the case. Cowman109Talk 19:45, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Evidence
"Both of them have been been mentioned on "

"Asia Times Online also has some articles about Angela Devi, and Sunny Leoni. Both of these sites are popular sources for the South Asian region."

Sunny Leone

An interview with Sunny Leone here Sunny Leone claims "I am getting my citizenship to America this year. I will have dual Canadian/ American..."

Sunny Leone was also Penthouse Pet of the year. From the wiki page of the preceding link: "Sunny Leone Pet of the Month March 2001 - Pet of the Year for 2003"

Angela Devi

Discussion
Sunny Leone for Criteria 1

I must say Sunny Leone was the penthouse pet of the year. This is something that definately had an impact on American culture and art. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.189.224.239 (talk • contribs)

Sunny Leone for Criteria 2

I recently went to Google and entered "sunny leone citizenship" I clicked on the first link http://www.sapnamagazine.com/fall05/articles/culture/fa-sunny.html

This link contains an interview with Sunny Leone, where she claims, "I am getting my citizenship to America this year. I will have dual Canadian/ American..."

To me it implies that she has primary citizenship to Canada and Secondary to USA. I feel this is enough for Sunny Leone to meet the requirement for Indian American (criteria 2). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.189.224.239 (talk • contribs)


 * There's a big difference between "...i will..." and "..i am..". e.g. There's a big difference between saying, "one day, I will make a million dollars" and "I have a million dollars". Is there any evidence that says she IS a IS citizen, present tense? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.23.250.160 (talk • contribs)

Re: '''There's a big difference between "...i will..." and "..i am..".'''

If you read the whole quote it says "I am getting my citizenship to America this year. I will have dual Canadian/ American so if I could have I would have voted that way. I believed in the cause and if that was all I could do to help prove a point then that is what I did. I couldn’t vote but I could definitely use my name along with the others to say what I wanted. "

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 150.135.161.110 (talk • contribs).

Indorunner this doesn't really address what i was saying. just because you say you "will" be or do something, doesn't mean that you have in the present thing done or achieved that thing. a future hope of something is not the same thing as evidence of fact. if evidence exists that sunny leone is currently (present tense) american citizen today, please present it.

Re: contribution to American Society and Culture (Criteria 1).

This list if focusing on people Indian Americans, if you go into detail about each person and their contributions to American society, you would have to remove several of them. There are several obscure names on this list that wouldn't fit.

Indorunner I don't disagree with that. However, two wrongs don't make a right. Just because other names don't deserve to be there, doesn't mean that more names should be misplaced and presented on the list. If you feel that there are other names that should be removed from the list, feel free to open a mediation and remove them. This mediation is about two names only: Sunny Leone and Angela Devi.

Many peple are just listing people of Indian origin who also happen to currently live in the US, or have lived in the US at some point. Look at Agha Shahid Ali his page says he "was an English poet of Kashmiri ancestry and upbringing."

Searching through Google, there is an article which says he came to the "US for a Ph.D. and a career as a professional poet and teacher." So far, nothing substantiating his citizenship.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 150.135.161.110 (talk • contribs).

Indorunner Again, this mediation is about two names only: Sunny Leone and Angela Devi. If you have any issue with other names, feel free to open a new mediation case.

Angela Devi for Criteria 1

She was born in the United States, her ethnicity is Indian. She lives in Phoenix, AZ. "significant contributions" is relative, the type of modeling she doesn would go under "artistic" category.

As to whether she is dead or not, there are oher people on the list like Dalip Singh Saund who lived from 1899-1973.

I don't know if using the example of Jenna Jameson really fits, because there aren't too many Indians who do this kind of modeling. Since there are so few of them, that is what makes them stand out.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 150.135.161.110 (talk • contribs).

Angela Devi for Criteria 2

Indorunner The criteria states "...list of Indian Americans who are famous, have made significant contributions to the American culture..." The contributions have to be to "American" culture, not Indian culture. Jenna Jameson is a valid example. She has made significant contributions to American culture, not Indian culture. If and when Angela Devi does the same kind of contribution to "American" culture, she would be a valid entry to this list. Currently, she does not fit the criteria, and thus does not fit on the list.

Criteria Requirements

Looking at the list, the criteria may need to be modified a little bit, including "have appeared in the news numerous times". Not all of these people have appeard in the news numerous times.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 150.135.161.110 (talk • contribs).

Indorunner As mentioned before, this mediation is about my proposal to remove two names: Sunny Leone and Angela Devi, based on their not fitting the criteria. If there are objections with the criteria themselves, or other names on the list, it is perfectly fair game to open new mediations for each issue.

General Discussion
Both of them have been been mentioned on The Times of India along with Nicole Narain who is part Indian/Guyanese, and she was born in Aurora, Illinois. She was Playboy's Playmate of the Month in January 2002, and she has also been featured on Maxim Online. This is the same Playboy model who is involved in the Colin Farrell sex tape controversy.

So based according to the criteria, Also by Indians, we are referring to individuals with some portion of ancestry from the Indian Subcontinent.

So here would some portion would include her father's Guyanese/Indian origin, this would be acceptable? An article on AskMen.com says "Nicole Narain is the product of a mixed ethnic background -- her mother is from Guyana, while her father is half Chinese and half East Indian."

Asia Times Online also has some articles about Angela Devi, and Sunny Leoni. Both of these sites are popular sources for the South Asian region.

More stories about Nicole Narain [http://in.news.yahoo.com/060419/139/63n7i.html Yahoo! India News], newKerala.com, webindia123.com, The Times Of India, Sify News, The Huffington Post, SuicideGirls, LiquidGeneration.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 150.135.161.110 (talk • contribs).

Indorunner Not sure what the above has to do with Sunny Leone or Angela Devi.

--150.135.162.72 18:37, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps if you read, you will see why I posted them here. These stories are about another person who you may or may not have heard of, who is of Indian descent, and born in the US. She appeared in Playboy in 2002. She was mentioned in The Times of India along with Sunny Leone and Angela Devi.

The criteria should be modified a little bit, significant contributions is somewhat subjective. Everyone has their own opinion on what would be considered significant, and not everyone will agree with other people's opinions. As I said earliar, Since there are so few of them, that is what makes them stand out. This is because there aren't too many Indian Americans who do this kind of modeling, and that is one of the reasons why these three were mentioned in the Times of India story.


 * Nonetheless, the question of Sunny's citizenship still remains, and information about Angela Devi recieving recognition in the United States as opposed to other countries is still being requested. I'm going to transfer the requests for evidence to the talk page so a wider audience can search for information to support the inclusion of Angela Devi and/or Sunny Leone. Cowman109Talk 18:42, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, also, to 150.135.162.72, I would recommend you create an account here on Wikipedia so it is easier for us to contact you. It would make this much easier, thanks :) Cowman109Talk 18:45, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

--AKWiki 17:47, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Requirements for Inclusion
Under the heading of the page, it says "The following is a list of Indian Americans who are famous, have made significant contributions to the American culture or society politically, artistically or scientifically, or have appeared in the news numerous times"

There are several people included on the list who are are not famous, and it can be argued that if they "have made significant contributions to the American culture or society politically, artistically or scientifically, or have appeared in the news numerous times"

By what scale do you measure "significant" or numerous?

Looking at the discussion above, Sunny Leone and Angela Devi and Nicole_Narain should be included. There are some here who would disagree because of the nature of their work (ie. porn). There is enough evidence from mainstream publications such as magazines and newspapers, for their inclusion in this category. If you search Google and other sources, you can see for yourself.

Indian American
How is this term being applied here? A. People who are U.S. citizens? B. What about the cases where it is unclear whether they are indeed U.S. citizens? C. People who are of Indian heritage or descent, who also happen to live in the U.S.? C. People who are of Indian heritage or descent, and also another group? D. People are labeled as of East Indian origin? D. What if someone lives here and is, but is not a U.S. citizen? Should they be included?