Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-04-22 Virginia Military Institute

Mediation Case: 2006-04-22 Virginia Military Institute
Please observe Etiquette and Talk Page Etiquette in disputes. If you submit complaints or insults your edits are likely to be removed by the mediator, any other refactoring of the mediation case by anybody but the mediator is likely to be reverted. If you are not satisfied with the mediation procedure please submit your complaints to Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal.

Request Information

 * Request made by: Vidkun 01:30, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Where is the issue taking place?
 * Virginia Military Institute, Class ring


 * Who's involved?
 * User:132.50.10.46, User:207.144.53.169, Marshall3, and me, Vidkun.


 * What's going on?
 * A claim is being made about Virginia Military Institute Class Rings (that they are bigger than any other college class rings, and bigger than Super Bowl Rings). I have, three times in the last 24 hours, put a fact tag on this piece of information, as there is nothing I can find on google to support it.  At this point, I am temporarily unwilling to make further edits of the page, under 3RR, even though the claim has still not been cited.  I have requested that those making the claim provide verifiable sources, and it resulted in personal attacks on the talk page.  Additionally, there is a claim about actor Dabney Coleman in the same section, alleging he was expelled for hazing.  This is an extremely defamatory statement, and one that, if true should be substantiated as well.


 * ''What would you like to change about that?
 * I would appreciate someone neutral stepping in and enforcing the wikipedia policy of requiring a citation for a disputable claim.


 * If you'd prefer we work discreetly, how can we reach you?
 * I am fine with not being discreetly contacted on this, the opposition I have received has been public attacks.
 * You may contact me via my talk page.


 * Would you be willing to be a mediator yourself, and accept a mediation assignment in a different case?


 * This is, following the Categorical Imperative, the idea that you might want to do
 * what you expect others to do. You don't have to, of course, that's why it's a question.


 * Possibly.

Mediator response
Hi there, I am Cowman109Talk and I have volunteered to take this case.

I will leave notes on the talk pages of those involved and on the talk page of the article referring people to this page so this can be nice and organized and not all over the place on multiple pages.

To begin with, there is clear hostility on the Virginia Military Institute Talk Page between Marshall and Vikdun. I ask that before we begin you both take a look at No personal attacks.

Now then, it seems we have two issues:

1. That of the ring weight issue. 2. The Dabney Coleman hazing allegation.

Citing_sources states that sources should be cited when "...you add any information to an article, particularly if it's... likely to be challenged, you should supply a source."

Now then, we clearly have information that has been challenged. Because of this, a request for a citation is perfectly valid. Citing_sources also states that "disputed text can immediately be removed entirely or moved from the article to the talk page for discussion. If the disputed text is harmless, and you simply feel a citation is appropriate, place (or  ) after the text."

From this guideline it seems like the best option is indeed to step aside and talk about this, as we are doing now. What I need from both of you (or anyone else with information) to find evidence to support the weight claims of the ring and evidence that supports the Dabney Coleman hazing allegation. There is nothing wrong with asking for a citation for this information.

If anyone has any information concerning either of these points, please add it to the discussion section and I will handle putting items into the evidence section. Cowman109Talk 02:29, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Update, 4/22/06


 * I have read your responses, but as the following quote reads, "disputed text can immediately be removed entirely or moved from the article to the talk page for discussion. If the disputed text is harmless, and you simply feel a citation is appropriate, place (or  ) after the text," it seems that the hazing allegation could indeed be considered "harmful" if it is not true, and as such I would propose that it be taken away from the pages and transferred to the talk page as per Citing_sources. In the event someone comes along to the page and finds evidence to support it, then it should be put back.


 * The ring size issue does not appear to be directly challenged as false by anyone, but merely it has been requested that a source be provided. Requesting a source be provided is a perfectly fine thing to due on Wikipedia as it reasserts that given information is true. Should someone come and directly assert that this information is false, then perhaps it could be taken aside once more, but as it stands now a tag or a  tag sounds like the best bet. Note that a citation request is not at all claiming that a certain fact is false. All such a tag does is ask that source information be provided.


 * So that's my compromise offer: a transfer of the hazing allegation to the talk page and leaving a citation/fact tag next to the ring weight claim. Please leave a note in the discussion if you agree or disagree with this and feel free to propose something else. Note that I am only an informal mediator and this is just a suggestion to settle things and calm everyone down, so by no means are you forced to agree with my decision. Cowman109Talk 21:43, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Update 19:36, 24 April 2006 (UTC) It seems there is still a problem, as tags have been removed from the page. What you must understand is that those requests are not vandalism (and thus often should not be removed), and in fact adding them to wiki pages is encouraged to provide valid sources as explained in Citing_sources. Marshall, could you please respond explaining your actions? Cowman109Talk 19:36, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Update 00:38, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

The controversial Dabney Coleman statement has been removed and the statement that the VMI rings are heavier than superbowl rings has also been changed into a less controversial statement. As those were the main dealings of this case, I'd like to know if it is alright to close this case. Should matters come up concerning other parts of the VMI page, I would suggest that a new request for mediation be filed so we can work in a clean, new page. Cowman109Talk 00:38, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Evidence
Ring Weight

44 pennyweights

Dabney Coleman Hazing Allegation

IMDB states that Dabney Coleman "was a cadet at the Virginia Military Institute as a member of the Class of 1953...left after two years." . This does not give any information as to why Dabney has left, still leaving the hazing allegation in question.

Discussion
Cowman 109, first, thanks for taking this case. I've noticed that there are several folks out there who continually modify and "water-down" VMI's page. It is important to note that there are some very unique aspects of this school that exist nowhere else in this country today. It is not propaganda to shed light on these aspects. Instead, I think it is pertinent information and is useful for research purposes.

On the topic of ring size/weight, I can assure you that the statements about largest class rings are correct. Other schools (Virginia Tech, etc.) may offer certain students, not the entire class, the OPTION of going with the larger 39+ pwt rings, but at VMI, it is the standard for all cadets to have a 39 or 40+ pwt ring. The account reps at Artcarved/Josten's/Balfour have always said VMI rings are the largest. I tried myself to contact the companies to get resolution, but they don't seem to keep records readily available on this issue. I told Vidkun that if he's so adamant about it, he should try to get the info himself to disprove it. And what about his VMI "ego stroking" comment? I may not be absolutely neutral on this topic, but he hardly seems neutral to me.

As far a Dabney Coleman's Hazing Allegation, someone needs to contact VMI or Dabney Coleman about this. As with the ring issue, I do believe that this is a correct statement. It is not meant to reflect poorly on Dabney Coleman. In fact, while at VMI it has been said that Dabney Coleman was one of the toughest guys in the Corps. It is rumored that Rats (VMI freshmen) feared Coleman when he was a cadet. Again, if Vidkun is so adamant about it, he should do the extra research himself.

Thanks again for your time Cowman, and I'll happily go along with whatever resolution is recommended. Thanks againMarshall3 14:48, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * My thoughts on this are simple: if material is added to an encyclopedia, it should be sourced.  It's not a matter of me trying to disprove it, as that isn't the way things have been handled in wikipedia before.  If someone adds a claim to a page, that claim should be backed up.  The dispute isn't about the truth of the matter, but verifiability.  Elsewhere in the talk section of the article, self proclaimed VMI students or alums told Citadel people to "Please leave our page alone and stick to your own." as well as "And by the way, why are Citadel folks always messing with our VMI pages?".  The ego stroke comment, while not polite, does sum up what a perception of the VMI-aligned editors of the VMI page do:  if something "waters down" the wonderful perception of VMI, it brings out a host of VMI editors who get possesive of the article, counter to WP:OWN.  Wikipedia isn't supposed to be a p/r outlet for VMI, for an encyclopedia that maintains WP:NPOV--Vidkun 15:15, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the final recommendation by User:Cowman109. I am very much in favor of seeing all the Military College/Academy pages spruced up with citation.--Vidkun 13:37, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

UPDATE 22:43, 8 May 2006 (UTC) The fact tags were removed, so, again, I put them back. There is still no source for the claim.--Vidkun 22:44, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

It appears there are two distinct claims in Wikipedia regarding VMI ring size. Virginia Military Institute had "VMI class rings are the largest class rings in the world and weigh more than Super Bowl rings", since edited to state "VMI class rings are among the largest class rings in the world" and Class ring has "With few exceptions, the largest class rings in the U.S. are worn by graduates of the Virginia Military Institute." The claims are 1. VMI rings are the largest in the world, 2. VMI rings are the largest in the U.S., and 3. VMI rings weigh more than Super Bowl rings. As these types of claims are presented as fact, readers of Wikipedia may assume they have been verified and rely on the claim. I support the inclusion of the citation tag until the claims have been verified or debunked.Rillian 18:18, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


 * This is my final remark to this "Cabal." I have neither the time or the patience to draw this out...and I'm not wasting any more of my efforts on this farce.  You guys can do whatever you like as it makes no difference to me.  The facts are presented and you can dilute them any way you see fit.  The two facts about ring size and Dabney Coleman are legitimate and I couldn't give a rat's @$$ if you guys don't want to accept them and want to continue muddying the waters...have fun with yourselves and good luck with your Dungeon's and Dragon's tournaments!Marshall3 17:07, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Case closed
Case closed due to uncooperation between the users to mediate. Moving case to archives. Cowman109Talk 18:40, 16 May 2006 (UTC)