Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-05-28 Friedrich List

Mediation Case: 2006-05-28 Friedrich List and Jews
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Mediation Case: 2006-05-28 Friedrich List
Please observe Etiquette and Talk Page Etiquette in disputes. If you submit complaints or insults your edits are likely to be removed by the mediator, any other refactoring of the mediation case by anybody but the mediator is likely to be reverted. If you are not satisfied with the mediation procedure please submit your complaints to Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal.

Request Information

 * Request made by: GwydionM 13:12, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Where is the issue taking place?
 * Friedrich List


 * Who's involved?
 * Myself (GwydionM) versus WAS 4.250 and Nandesuka.

Back in December 2005, I expanded the article about List. Among other topics, I noted that Dühring claimed List's legacy, but that List's view of Jews was quite different from Dühring's.
 * What's going on?

WAS 4.250 removed it - along with various edits that seemed OK. I restored it, suggesting mediation if this was not accepted. Nandesuka then removed it, accusing me of including 'original research'.

I then edited my remarks, leaving just what was said by Henderson and List himself. This too had been removed.

Two other contributors made other changes that were unexceptional and in fact an improvement. Northmeister improved the article, though he also expressed agreement with WAS 4.250.

I want to restore some well-documented facts.
 * ''What would you like to change about that?
 * That Dühring regarded himself as List's disciple. (Henderson)
 * That Dühring was anti-Semitic. (Widely documented)
 * That List said little about Jews, with the only remark I could find being favourable. (Direct quote from his book.)

The current summary (in Legacy) is:
 * His present obscurity is in part due to the characters who took up and distorted his ideas long after his death.

This is both vague and inaccurate. If Dühring distorted List's economic ideas, let's see the evidence. What he did was tie those ideas to modern anti-Semitism.

He isn't that obscure. Mainstream economists may ignore him, but his works remain in prints. List's influence seems to be considerable outside the English-speaking world. As a multi-lingual reference work we need to cover all such topics.

What I said and would like to see restored is


 * Eugen Dühring, a lecturer at the university of Berlin, declared that List's doctrines represented 'the first real advance' in economics since the publication of The Wealth of Nations. ((Henderson)


 * Dühring is remembered for being the target of Engels's book Anti-Dühring, and for being a pioneer of modern anti-Semitism. List himself does not seem to have been hostile to Jews; he seldom mentioned them, but did say:


 * "Up to the time of Philip II... Spain possessed all the elements of greatness and prosperity, when bigotry, in alliance with despotism, set to work to stifle the high spirit of the nation. The first commencement of this work of darkness was the expulsion of the Jews, and its crowning act the expulsion of the Moors, whereby two millions of the most industrious and well-to-do inhabitants were driven out of Spain with their capital." (The National System of Political Economy, p 58.)

This could go in 'legacy' rather than 'influences' - possibly the two should be merged.

Thanks but no, the pages are fine.
 * If you'd prefer we work discreetly, how can we reach you?

I'm busy, but I suppose everyone's busy. I know a lot about science fiction, history and politics. Regarding politics, though, my views are much too distinctive to make me a suitable mediator.
 * Would you be willing to be a mediator yourself, and accept a mediation assignment in a different case?


 * This is, following the Categorical Imperative, the idea that you might want to do
 * what you expect others to do. You don't have to, of course, that's why it's a question.



Mediator response
OK. I'm closing this out. Northmeister and WAS 4.250 have provided convincing evidence that mention of Duhring does not belong in the List article. A compromise was offered to make a weak mention of List in the Duhring article http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eugen_D%C3%BChring&diff=56032965&oldid=54560542 but at this point I have serious questions as to whether even that weaker edit doesn't constitute original research (though I consider it mainly harmless). The editors from the Duhring page were not brought into this mediation and there opinion as to whether List influenced Duhring or not was not fully taken into account. However the evidence given so far does not even support this weaker conclusion rather it indicates that some 3rd parties made off hand comments about some connection.

GwydionM refused original attempts at discussion and requested mediation. When asked to provide evidence he has simply repeated that the evidence given is already sufficient.

So brief recommendations are as follows:
 * 1) The quote from the List article is pulled
 * 2) Attempts to reinsert it at this point should be considered disciplinary action (trolling/vandalism) and not content disputes
 * 3) The quote within the Duhring article may remain and the editors on the Duhring can discuss whether there is sufficient evidence to conclude that Duhring was even influenced meaningfully by List.  The mediator takes no position on this issue.

Evidence
Please report evidence in this section with for misconduct and  for 3RR violations. If you need help ask a mediator or an advocate. Evidence is of limited use in mediation as the mediator has no authority. Providing some evidence may, however, be useful in making both sides act more civil. Etiquette: Although it's understandably difficult in a heated argument, if the other party is not as civil as you'd like them to be, make sure to be more civil than him or her, not less.

Compromise offers
This section is for listing and discussing compromise offers.

Discussion
This is an article on List. "Dühring" and Friedrich List's attitude towards jews plays no significant role in List's life that I know of. I know little of List's life but the little I do know includes the observation that other biographies of List see no reason to discuss List's attitude towards jews so I don't think we should either (undue weight). Further if Dühring both distorted List's ideas and hated jews I'm happier leaving him out of the article too. So what if some Jew hater said good things about List's ideas. Why give Dühring publicity outside his own bio? I came to List's article from our article on American System (economic system) which is a realization/inspiration of List's economic ideas. I came to that article from mixed economy which is a more general term for both (sort of). WAS 4.250 14:42, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I just now deleted His present obscurity is in part due to the characters who took up and distorted his ideas long after his death. for being unsourced. WAS 4.250 14:54, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

If the objection is to mentioning Dühring, I think this unfair, because there was a link and Dühring was important enough at the time to be the target of Engels's polemic. But I am willing to compromise. Just say:
 * Unlike later German nationalists, List was not hostile to Jews.

This is relevant because List was a German and a believer in economic control at the level of nations. There are obvious points of similarities to what followed.

--GwydionM 17:23, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm sticking to my original position. Dühring is not marginal and should be mentioned. List's lack of hostility to Jews is also a fact worth mentioning. --GwydionM 17:05, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Then reply to the material by Northmeister on Talk:Friedrich_List. With the exception of Duhring does not carry the stature of List I'd say the argument remains intact (and even here they seem to be close in stature).  What you have presented so far is a very weak connection that some authors made comments that Dühring was influenced by List.  You need to either prove that there is a strong connection between List and Dühring, like a serious discussion of List by Dühring.  Without this the connection is WP:NOR

Nothing by Dühring is available in English, nor is there any English-language book that says much about him, as far as I known. The link to List has two reliable sources, already given in the article before you started changing it. If Northmeister chooses not to be convinces, that is his problem. --GwydionM 13:34, 3 June 2006 (UTC)