Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-06-13 Messianic Judaism

Mediation Case: 2006-06-13 Messianic Judaism
Please observe Etiquette and Talk Page Etiquette in disputes. If you submit complaints or insults your edits are likely to be removed by the mediator, any other refactoring of the mediation case by anybody but the mediator is likely to be reverted. If you are not satisfied with the mediation procedure please submit your complaints to Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal.

Request Information

 * Request made by: Avi 15:21, 13 June 2006 (UTC) acting for User:CowboyWisdom
 * I am not interested in this mediation as there is nothing to mediate since all I did was protect the page due to an edit war that was taking place between multiple users. Protection of a page is not an endorsment of the current page version. Other than the locking of the page I have not been involved in the talk page for a while so I don't know where the intimidation comes in. There is no policy that says that a member of one religion cannot edit or protect the page describing another religion. Furthermore since Mediation does not ban people from article it seems like the user that submitted this is not familiar with the proccess of mediation and is using this as a way to push his agenda. If there is a valid complaint against me feel free to open a new case and we can work it out but with the way it is written now, I am not interested. I would advise that whomever submitted this reread the relevant policy articles. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€  17:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I do not disagree with you, however, as User:CowboyWisdom made this request in a completely incorrect way, I feel that as WP:AGF I would correct it for him. Regardless, I believe that perusal of that Talk page will undeniably demonstrate that neither you nor I engaged in any intimidation, and that either User:CowboyWisdom is naïve in the ways of wikipedia or, possibly, but hopefully not, engaging in mediation as a way to push his partciular POV. -- Avi 17:28, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Where is the issue taking place?
 * Talk:Messianic Judaism


 * Who's involved?
 * User:CowboyWisdom
 * User:PinchasC
 * User:Avraham


 * What's going on?
 * Quote from User:CowboyWisdom:
 * Users User:Avraham and User:PinchasC (aka Eliezer) according to their user pages avidly represent 'Judaism'. 'Messianic Judaism' has no affiliation with Judaism per se, nor is it a sect of Judaism, nor subject to Judaism. Judaism does not believe in Messianic Jewish practice and actually has a Counter-Missionary work against it.


 * User:PinchasC (administrator) has locked down the topic and along with User:Avraham appear to be willfully intimidating other editors on the Talk:Messianic Judaism with non-NPOV beliefs that are do not represent the Messianic Jewish faith.

As a matter of another issue, the actual article is in shambles and the first two paragraphs basically appears to be no more than a billboard for Judaism's biased opinion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.8.41.252 (talk • contribs) 09:53, June 19, 2006  (UTC)


 * While they may be proficient as editors in the WikiProject_Judaism area as to correctly represent Judaism, I do not believe it is appropriate that they represent Messianic Judaism. Neither editor responds to resource links to reputable Messianic articles concerning mainline Messianic beliefs and terminology. It is clearly a conflict of interests.


 * See: Talk:Messianic Judaism including sub-titles 'Perspective' and 'Perspective continued'.


 * CowboyWisdom 01:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

(RickReinckens matter not pertinent so removed, it more appropriately went to his talk at: User:RickReinckens) CowboyWisdom 16:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * CowboyWisdom 13:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The fact that my user name 'Cowboy Wisdom' was deleted from wikipedia without explanation by certain administration tends to only verify the reason for starting the Cabal. Also see: Talk:Messianic_Judaism —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.158.157.36  (talk • contribs) 09:37, June 17, 2006  (UTC)
 * Cowboy, you are coming up as an I address because you are not signed in. That is how wikipedia works. If you were to sign in every time you enter, or check the box to allow the cookie that retains your userid and password, you wouldn't have that problem. -- Avi 17:19, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

While user 'Cowboy Wisdom' has kept a NPOV, this whole matter is a clear cut matter of discrimination against Messianic Judaism. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.7.243.249 (talk • contribs) 02:11, June 16, 2006  (UTC)


 * ''What would you like to change about that?
 * Quote from User:CowboyWisdom (taken from above):
 * I suggest User:Avraham and User:PinchasC be banned from the topic Messianic Judaism and its talk page, and perhaps other associated Messianic subjects.


 * If you'd prefer we work discreetly, how can we reach you?
 * I cannot answer for User:CowboyWisdom. -- Avi 15:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Would you be willing to be a mediator yourself, and accept a mediation assignment in a different case?


 * This is, following the Categorical Imperative, the idea that you might want to do
 * what you expect others to do. You don't have to, of course, that's why it's a question.


 * I personally would; I cannot answer for User:CowboyWisdom, although I feel mediation is not called for in this situation, as described above and below, -- Avi 17:28, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Mediator response
Additional case file at User:Inigmatus/Messianic Judaism revision. This is an alternate page. jbolden1517Talk 05:36, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

There are essentially 4 issues in this case


 * cowboy wisdom is claiming the page is being modified at the developer level (things like changes to the page not reflected in history). This seems to be rejected by most of the other posters and even if true I'm not sure what medcab could do about it.


 * The page is currently locked for edit warring. The admin who locked it does have an opinion on the underlying issue.  However the lack of any motion towards a productive solution on contact precludes addressing this.


 * There is fundamental disconnect as to whether messianic judaism should be seen as part of christianity, a jewish christian hybrid or a new religion. Arguments for the first position tend to be based on selective use of evidence.  Arguments for the 2nd and 3rd are based on personal experience and emotion.  I was unable to get the advocates for either side to agree to address each other's modes


 * Finally there is a claim for a desire for a rewrite without understanding that for the rewrite to become the main page its going to have to go through consensus process.

I can't see what good I can do here. closing case jbolden1517Talk 07:49, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Evidence
Did not the following of June 12 originally have User:PinchasC's signature on segments of it??? Did someone use an administrators (vandalism) tool to remove all instances of User:PinchasC from the Talk:Messianic Judaism page? Comments by User:PinchasC appear to be missing on Talk:Messianic Judaism that were originally there!

''Cowboy, it does not have to. The article is not' supposed to represent mainstream Messianic views, that is also POV. The fact of the matter is, that by the definition of Christ, meaning the anointed one, which is Biblical Hebrew is Moshiach (משיח) or Messiah, ipso facto means that one who believes that Jesus of Nazareth was the anointed messiah, believes that he is the Christos or Christ. Now, as I reiterate, Messianism is a return to original pre-Pauline, Judeao-Christianity, but to say that Jesus of Nazareth was the messiah and not christ is sophistry; the words are translations of each other! Quote from Wiki article Christ:

Christ is the English representation of the Greek word Χριστός (Christos). The Christian religion takes its name from Christ, as a title given to Jesus of Nazareth, always capitalized as a singularly descriptive title meaning literally The Anointed One. The word Χριστός has been used since pre-Christian times to translate the Hebrew word מָשִׁיחַ (Mašíaḥ). In English translations of the New Testament, the Greek Ἰησοῦς Χριστός (Iēsous Christos), and related phrases, are almost invariably translated Jesus Christ or Christ Jesus…

Quote from Wiki article Messiah (emphasis added is my own):

In Judaism, the Messiah (מָשִׁיחַ Standard Hebrew Mašíaḥ, Tiberian Hebrew Māšîªḥ, Aramaic משיחא) initially meant any person who was anointed by a prophet of God. In English today, it is used in two major contexts: the anticipated saviour of the Jews, and one who is anticipated as, regarded as, or professes to be a saviour or liberator. Jews, however, do not generally use the word "saviour" in reference to the messiah, primarily because of the Christian connotation of the word "saviour." In the first century, Jews interpreted the prophecies of the Tanakh to refer more specifically to someone appointed by God to lead the Jewish people in the face of their tribulations with the Romans. Christians believe that these prophecies actually referred to a spiritual savior, and consider Jesus to be that messiah. The word Christ (Greek Χριστός, Christos, "the anointed one") is a literal translation of "mashiach" used in the Greek Septuagint version of the Bible, and derived from the Greek verb χριω "rub, anoint with scented unguents or oil, as was done after bathing", "anoint in token of consecration" (Liddell & Scott's Greek-English Lexicon).

Quote forom Wiki article Jesus:

Jesus (8-2 BC/BCE — 29-36 AD/CE),[1] also known as Jesus of Nazareth, is the central figure of Christianity. In this context, he is known as Jesus Christ, where Christ is a Greek title meaning "Anointed One" which corresponds to the Hebrew term "Messiah".

It is painfully clear that believing Jesus is the Messiah is a form of Christianity; and that has been the norm for the past 2000 or so years. Again, I agree that Messiansim can resemble Judaism in that it is Christianity before Paul made such sweeping changes and created extreme diffrences between Christianity and Judaism. But to say that Messiansins is a form of Judaism goes against millenia of tradition on both' the Christian and Jewish sides, as well as the simple definitions and tenents of BOTH faiths and BOTH faiths’ texts. -- Avi 00:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC)'' —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.8.34.218 (talk • contribs) 07:38, June 15, 2006 (UTC)


 * Nope, I wrote that, not PinchasC. -- Avi 16:28, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Also note the comment: The article is not supposed to represent mainstream Messianic views

Please report evidence in this section with for misconduct and  for 3RR violations. If you need help ask a mediator or an advocate. Evidence is of limited use in mediation as the mediator has no authority. Providing some evidence may, however, be useful in making both sides act more civil. Etiquette: Although it's understandably difficult in a heated argument, if the other party is not as civil as you'd like them to be, make sure to be more civil than him or her, not less.

Compromise offers
None, Messianic Judaism should be fairly represented just as Judaism and Christianity already are as per comparison. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.158.157.36 (talk • contribs) 09:31, June 17, 2006 (UTC)

This section is for listing and discussing compromise offers.

Comments by others
Cowboy, I am somewhat shocked at the above statement “along with User:Avraham appear to be willfully intimidating other editors on the Talk:Messianic Judaism….” I respectfully request you read everything I posted on the above page, and point out where I engaged in "intimidation" tacticts. I have tried to be civil and polite at all times, and let my opinions, analogies, and proofs speak for themselves. If you could find such statements, I will be the first to apologize, as it was never my intent to engage in argumentum ad hominem or browbeating; rather, intellectual discourse. I thought that we were succsesful in that regard. Please realize that if it is the preponderance of evidence that is intimidating, that should say something in and of itself. If, however, you cannot point to any such statements that are intimidating, both on your talk page or on Talk:Messianic Judaism, the honorable thing for you to do would be to a) remove my name from this request, and b) apologize for the false accusation. Thank you. -- Avi 14:58, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I am in support of us having mediation. It seems to me that the current editors of the Messianic Judaism article are using the article for their own devices, which is, to sway people into a negative train of thought in regards to our religious beliefs. They are contending that their information is more NPOV than our own information, when to me they are doing the exact thing they are “policing” us for.
 * On the whole the current version of the article does not show us partiality – and the article is about us.
 * Now my “bone” is not to be picked with Avi or Pinchas or Avraham. My bone is with any of these people fit the anti-missionary regime that in my eyes has formed against us and the right to a non-biased view of ourselves.
 * Now, I may get out-lawyered, being that I am not very familiar with Wikipedia’s rules and regulations (haven’t the time to get to know them; once I get my central air repaired I’ll go upstairs to my home-office and actually take the time there). I am aware of citations and sources being needed for things and that one cannot go on simply what they have heard or learned on their own, etc.
 * What I believe is that the editors of the article that oppose Messianic Judaism have ulterior motives, more than just a penchant for Wiki laws. And I would prefer this to not be so. I can go to the Christian article (and the Jewish one and the Satanism one and the Islam one and the Buddhism one) and feel that the article is in their favor; it gives information about the history of the religion and the beliefs of its adherents.
 * But with ours I feel disenfranchised.
 * And so I feel it is not fair.
 * I am not asking for a site that glorifies Messianic Jews, nor am I asking for anything to be 100% leaning our way. I am, however, searching for the article that is TRULY NPOV, which I can be proud to say “This article is about my people, my beliefs”. I cannot possibly say that at this time.Rivka 21:52, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

What could be more intimidating than a comment such as quoted:

"The article is not supposed to represent mainstream Messianic views, that is also POV." -- Avi 00:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Such a comment can be seen as discrimination. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.158.159.102 (talk • contribs) 13:49, June 19, 2006 (UTC)


 * Cowboy, please sign in and sign your comments, it is basic wikipedia etiquette. Now, as for your quoting my statement, all I can say is that while it is reasonable to say that that statement was biased, impartial, and guilty of WP:POV, one would have to be a person of very little self-esteem and composure to feel intimidated by it. Looking it over, I agree it was not formulated well, and what I probably meant was “The article is not supposed to only represent mainstream Messianic views, that is also POV.” However, to say that it it was meant to intimidate is ingenuous at best, and provacative at worst. Please carefully read WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA, Cowboy. -- Avi 19:35, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Discussion
See: Talk:Messianic_Judaism —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.158.157.36 (talk • contribs)  09:33, June 17, 2006  (UTC)