Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-11-07 Armenian Genocide

Mediation Case: 2006-11-07 Armenian Genocide
Please observe Etiquette and Talk Page Etiquette in disputes. If you submit complaints or insults your edits are likely to be removed by the mediator, any other refactoring of the mediation case by anybody but the mediator is likely to be reverted. If you are not satisfied with the mediation procedure please submit your complaints to Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal.

Request Information

 * Request made by: Xargoth 15:30, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Where is the issue taking place?
 * In the Article Armenian Genocide


 * Who's involved?
 * Some administrators and editors.


 * What's going on?
 * The article is written in a way that it accuses a country and a nation with only one-sided sources. Adding The Accused views on the matter are deleted, and no chance of defense and defensive arguements are allowed.
 * Also note that, many misinformation is within the article and a hard work seems goes on to make this look like exactly same as WWII Holocaust, by making assumptions, assertions, on some of the things that happened. Showing Books of Armenian Propaganda as source. Note that, Turkish sources of the same attitude are not accepted inside the Article too.


 * ''What would you like to change about that?
 * While, as a regular guy i can't spend my years to correct this propaganda based article. I wish to see the article marked as not "nuetral" POV. As it is only based on one sides sources..


 * Would you prefer we work discreetly? If so, how can we reach you?
 * I have said my views, on the talk page already. So i prefer not involved in this third party view of the situation.

Mediator response

 * I will try to help out. TheronJ 21:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Update: I have left a note for Xargoth asking if he would reconsider his preference not to participate in this mediation. My initial instinct is that the mediation won't work without Xargoth's participation, but if the other page participants would find mediation helpful, I would be glad to go forward.  TheronJ 22:01, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Update: I am closing this mediation - my understanding is that the requestor, Xargoth, does not intend to participate, which leaves me without a dispute to mediate. However, if Xargoth or the other participants would find mediation helpful, I would be happy to re-open the mediation.  TheronJ 16:01, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Compromise offers
This section is for listing and discussing compromise offers.



Discussion

 * I have no clue what there is to be mediated. All of this has been discussed before in detail and has already been resolved. This seems a colosal waste of time. If I requested mediation in the Holocaust article because I felt that the position denying that there ever was a Holocaust wasn't reperesented what would be the response. Nothing of substance has been presented that comes even close to discount the perspective/accusation that holds that the Ottoman Turkish Government commited a genocide against its Armenian citizens. All of the counter acusations that attempt to portray these events as something other then an Ottoman Government commited genocide against its own citizens of Armenian ethnic extraction goes against the facts as accepted by the vast majority of serious scholarship on this issue that is supported by factual foundation. Holocasut deniers present the same type of strawman arguments questioning intent (lack of specific order to exterminate), genocidal result (questioning the number killed and make claims that is was only rogue elements or out of control local officials), as well as make accusations that Jews were activley opposed to the Naz regiem and acted seditiously as well as fought militarily in the Armies of the Allies against Germany - even charges that Jews commited atrocities against Germans in the later part of the war and in its aftermath. Similar charges are made against Armenians by certain Turks and genocide deniers and they are contextually exactly the same as the spurious charges made against the Jews. Neither set of charges obviates the accurate depiction of state sponsored genocide - yet in this case (Armenian genocide) we are asked to include such perspectives as if they are a legitimate counter to such - and they absolutley are not. The vast body of scholars and historians do not believe such and there are no facts that support such a view. This article should not be held hostage by strawmen arguments and political agendas that are not worthy of an Encyclopedic article. The articel as it now stands may be incomplete and much more relevant date could certainly be included - but it should not be a platform to those who deny the facts and the truth purely for political reasons. --THOTH 01:45, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Since I am involved in the edit dispute Xargoth has described above, I would like to address one point he has raised, which is "Adding The Accused views on the matter are deleted, and no chance of defense and defensive arguements are allowed." With "The Accused views on the matter", he refers to this edit. This body of text was added to the section "The position of Republic of Turkey", and his edit summary ("The actual Turkish Government Stance on the Armenian Genocide claims. Taken from a govermental website, refed, and exists within the sources.") also implied that it was the official position of the Turkish government. However, what he copypasted was not the position of the Turkish government, but the position of a group of American historians. As such, the body of text does not belong in that particular section, as I've indicated in a hidden comment in the article and on the article's talk page. I also indicated that Xargoth is free to add the (wikified) body of text to Armenian Genocide. But referring to the opinion of a group of historians as the opinion of the Turkish government is simply incorrect. Removing it was highly warranted. A ecis  Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984. 15:41, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Since Xargoth has said above that "some admins" are involved, I would like to emphasize that I am not involved in this as an admin, but as an editor. I have not used any admin privileges, nor will I do so. A  ecis  Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984. 15:53, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Aecis has a point about the heading. However it would have been the right thing to place it under "opposing historians"(or some thing simmilar) heading instead of simply deleting. please note that that heading was a forced decision. The international historians views are blocked in the article. they are presented in the Turkeys position section to discredit the arguements and hide the fact that many experts actually oppose almost everything (actually the very foundation of the article) presented in the article. Since anything we add (all being perfectly sourced) is simply reverted without any discussion by a ganged up team the removal of that section totaly wrecked the already terible article. The article is totally biased one sided and written using "extereme" (reaching racist cathegory) sources. Even the sites that oppose these thesis are wiped out of the article. The strong objections to the discussed historical events by historians are named as Denial and totally cencored.neurobio 01:45, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * "However it would have been the right thing to place it under "opposing historians"(or some thing simmilar) heading instead of simply deleting." The opinion of the historians was already in the "Denial" section (note 44), so there was no need to move it. A  ecis  Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984. 11:00, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

This has all already been discused in the past (months, years even - etc) - and it is clear that the specific Turkish and Turksih connected academicians who advocate the view that there was no Armenian Genocide is an extreme minority position that is not accepted by the wider body of scholars and vast amounts of historical evidence regarding this issue. Specifically - pertaining to the applicability of the term/concept of "genocide" to the Armenian case we have repeatedly referenced the fact of (and specific statements made regarding) the origin and meaning of the word and direct applicability of such concept made by Ralph Lemkin the originator of such who very specifically indicates that this concept was developed to be applied to the case of the extermination, disenfranchisement and mass killing of Armenians by the Ottoman Government at this point in time. Additionally, the claims often made by Turkish contributors to this article and talk page that accuse Ottoman Armenians of open rebellion and of like mass murder of Turks during this period commonly known as the Armenian Genocide that occured during WWI are not supported. The scattering of accounts of isolated killings or formation of gureilla bands or what have you are not at all sufficient to advocate this claim in any serious way. Likewise the additional claim of 500,000 Muslims/Turks/Kurds killed by Armenians during this period is laughable and is entirely unsupported by any kind of cooborated data. The (single) source given for such claims has alredy been proven (in the archives of this very talk page - discussed at length) to be a highly innacurate propoganda piece on the part of the Turkish Government that cobbles together extremely dubious (at the time false charges used for propoganda purposes to incite hatred against the Armenians - much as the Nazis did such to fan hate against the Jews prior to and during WWII). Additionally these supposed counts of Muslims/Tuks/Kurds killed by Armenians are not coorborated in any way - in fact secret German diplomatic dispatches from the period indicate that no such thing was occuring - that there was no significant Armenian "rebellion" or mass violence against Muslims/Turks/Kurds during this period. These are entirely false charges - strawmen which are being used by certain Turks here to disrupt and vandalise an entirely factual and objective presentation - much as if Neo-Nazis or Hitler apologists and Holocaust deniers were to repeat racist German propoganda against the Jews in an effort to justify or deny the Holocaust. It is a shameful effrot on the part of those involved and perpetuation of this as anything serious puts Wikiperdia in a very bad light to be taken seriously as any kind of accurate Encyclopedic presentation that one may acctually go to and expect to gleen factual information. The Turkish Government sponsored denialist efforts and position need to be portryaed exactly for what they are and the facts of the Armenian Genocide - as known and proven by the vast categlogue of direct eyewitness information from the time and scholarly research since cannot be sullied by such garbage. --THOTH 15:22, 9 November 2006 (UTC)