Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-03-08 Chai (symbol)

Mediation Case: 2007-03-08 Chai (symbol)
Please observe Etiquette and Talk Page Etiquette in disputes. If you submit complaints or insults your edits are likely to be removed by the mediator, any other refactoring of the mediation case by anybody but the mediator is likely to be reverted. If you are not satisfied with the mediation procedure please submit your complaints to Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal.

Request Information

 * Request made by: Epson291 22:11, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Epson291
 * Where is the issue taking place?

Chai (symbol)


 * Who's involved?

Epson291 and AnonMoos


 * What's going on?

AnonMoos simply reverts my edits and questions my abilities and claims I should edit other types of articles.


 * ''What would you like to change about that?

I want to see a concensus on the article, rather then his claim since he created the article he isn't going to let it get filled by "nonsense"

He has also edited twice what I wrote on his talk page by removing it.
 * Would you prefer we work discreetly? If so, how can we reach you?

It can be public

Mediator response
OK, since I've heard back from both parties, I'm going to review the history of the dispute and the applicable guidelines. In the meantime, would it be satisfactory for both of you to hold the discussion on this page? If so, please make a statement below on your position regarding the article's content. The only favor I ask is that you leave aside, for now, any complaints of other parties' past conduct and limit the comment to issues concerning the content of the article. Thanks for agreeing to use this forum to resolve the dispute - let's begin! RJASE1 Talk  16:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Discussion
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chai_%28symbol%29&oldid=114158403

is the last edit I made

There are several problems with the agreement of content.

First, I have given different translations of the words "Am Yisrael Chai", made into English. I sourced them all with well formed orgnraizations. He wants only the one translation. In my last edit I put his tranlation first. I also mentioned the other translations are idiomatically translations, which they are, and used often.

Also, the standard Hebrew pronoucation should be placed first, also called the "Israeli" prouncation, and not the old style Ashkenazi pronucation (which is still there following). He also does not want it menioted that "Am Yisrael Chai" has been used as both a song and a rallying cry for Jews.

In addition, I mentioned The words of Am Yisrael Chai are often attributed to be based on Genesis 45:3 (hense the cf. before it) and I well sourced it as well. The sources I used were not google hogwash as he clamed, it was Aish HaTorah, Rabbi Sid Schwarz of the Adat Shalom Synagogue, and the international organization, March of the Living. Cheers Epson291 21:59, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what the formal procedure is here, or where I'm supposed to add my comments, but one thing that I've needed from him all the way through from beginning to end is some form of explanation from him as to why he chose to change the verb mood in the English translation of Hebrew `Am Yisrael Chai from indicative to non-indicative. That was pretty much the first question I ever asked him, his mocking hostility on this point in his second-ever reply to me did much to set the negative tone of our future association, and his subsequent continual dodging and weaving in order to to avoid having to answer the question did nothing whatsoever to restore amicable relations between us.  If he could once and for all actually just answer the question, that would be a great step forward.


 * Also, he has an unfortunate tendency to to paraphrase things, and add unnecessary redundant verbiage in the process, and when he does this for things he doesn't have a solid knowledge of, such as linguistics, then the results can be rather unfortunate (such as turning a true assertion into falsehood). However, he does not seem to be willing to discuss this in any constructive or cooperative way... AnonMoos 21:52, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I am and have always been very willing to discuss it in a constructive and cooperative manner. I should only ask the same of you. I also ask you to stop telling me not to edit your article, and that I do not have the skills for it.  Thank you.  I am not sure the formal procedure either, but I do realize this is a volenteerd mediation. Epson291 02:34, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, you do not have the necessary knowledge in certain areas (such as linguistics) to know whether your edits are helping or hurting the article, but you very much resent being informed that some of your edits might be inaccurate, and you seem to insist on adding in your paraphrases regardless. And I notice you still haven't answered the first question of why you changed the verb mood in the English translation of `Am Yisrael Chai from indicative to non-indicative. AnonMoos 12:38, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, I think I understand the nature of the dispute pretty clearly. I don't have an opinion on this myself (somehow the nuns at my Catholic school neglected to teach me anything about Hebrew linguistics :P), but it's not the job of a mediator to have an opinion anyway. What I propose doing is to make a request for comment to bring in some expert opinions and achieve some consensus on the article. In addition to listing the RfC in the normal place, I'd also like to post notifications of the RfC at WikiProject Judaism, WikiProject Hebrew languages, and WikiProject Jewish culture. I'll draft the RfC today and post it here - if you both are happy with the wording, and with following this particular dispute resolution process, we'll go for it. RJASE1 Talk  14:55, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok User:RJASE1, that would be very useful. Epson291 18:35, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
 * AnonMoos, I have answered that several times, but I'll repeat for you, the translations I sourced, and I said idomatically translations, are ones often used, very often used, and I sourced them, with reputable sources unlike you claim, AND I listed the indicative as well, actually as the first one. Epson291 18:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Administrative notes
Is this case still active or can I close it? --McClerk 05:19, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Closing. --Ideogram 19:50, 15 May 2007 (UTC)