Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-05-20 Lists of Marilyns

Who are the involved parties?
Mainly me (User:Ras52) and padraig3uk

What is the involved article(s)?
Template:Lists of Marilyns, though I believe similar arguments are happening elsewhere

What's going on?
Template:Lists of Marilyns is a table transcluded by various lists of hills and mountains in the British Isles. It lists all of the related regional lists of hills (known as Marilyns) and uses the template to put a regional flag next to them. As can be seen on the talk page, the consensus is strongly in favour of keeping some form of visual identification, such as a flag to indicate which list is which. padraig3uk keeps removing the flag; various people, including me, keep replacing it.

padraig3uk's argument is that the flag, the Ulster Banner, produced by the icon has Unionist connotations and hence is POV, which may be true. However, this isn't relevant. The page uses the template correctly, and if that template is at fault, the issue should be taken up on Template:Country data Northern Ireland. However it seems that padraig3uk has taken it up there and failed to get them to change it, and is now systematically going through Wikipedia removing uses of it that he doesn't like.


 * Comment The Ulster Banner is not and never was the flag of Northern Ireland, this flag was the banner of the old Stormont government and was used between 1953-72, it ceased to be used when that government was suspended in 1972 and abolished in 1973 under the Northern Ireland Constitution Act 1973, the banner was never the flag of Northern Ireland as under British constitutional tradition the flag was that of the government and not the state as pointed out in:


 * Encyclopdeia Britannica says: According to British tradition, a coat of arms or flag is granted to the government of a territory, not to the people residing there. Therefore, when the government of Northern Ireland was disbanded in March 1972, its arms and flag officially disappeared; however, the flag continues to be used by groups (such as sports teams) representing the territory in an unofficial manner.


 * Flags.net says This flag is a banner of the arms of the old Government of Northern Ireland. The flag ceased to be official in 1973, but continues to be used by Unionists. On no account should it be used for official purposes.


 * It shouldn't be used to represent Northern Ireland as a country or state today, and under the 'Flags (NI) Order 2000' the only official flag that can be used for Northern Ireland is the Union Flag, I have no objection to the Ulster Banner being used in articles or templates that deal with the period 1921-72, but any use of it outside of that is presenting the POV of one section of the population of Northern Ireland.--padraig3uk 23:50, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

What would you like to change about that?
Get padraig3uk to leave the template usage on those pages, and, if the arguments about the Ulster Banner being partisan have merit, help make suitable changes to the relevant Country data file.

Mediator response
It strikes me that this should not be about what the flag of Northern Ireland is or isn't. There are two options regarding representation images in infoboxes – either have them, or don't have any. It seems the consensus at the talk page is for images – so the issue is the nature of these images. These images are, as I previously said representation images, not necessarily flags – so all that needs to happen is we need to find an image which is commonly understood to represent each of the entries in the infobox. The only one which has been opposed is Northern Ireland's, so please everyone consider an appropriately-sized image to represent NI. I say again – this is NOT about the status of the Ulster banner. DBD 17:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Discussion
I'm not sure whether this is the appropriate place to comment: feel free to move/delete if not.

One point I want to make clear is that I have no attachment at all to the use of the Ulster Banner. On the talk page, I've suggested St Patrick's Flag as a possibility, though I gather this too may have undesirable unionist connotations, and I'm also content with the map icon in this version (though others evidently weren't).

However, I think uniformity across Wikipedia (at least where appropriate) is a good thing, and because of that, I would like to continue using a template such as flagicon (or a similar one, if a more appropriate one exists). If something needs changing, I would rather that it were undefined (the back-end to flagicon). One reason for this is that the contributors to that template are more likely to be knowledge about the subtle overtones that different flags/icons convey than the contributors a relatively obscure hillwalking template are. I can't help but feel, perhaps incorrectly, that this has already been discussed there, and the Ulster Banner was deemed the least bad icon to use, and that some members of the "loosing" side have gone through Wikipedia systematically removing all uses of flagicon / NIR. Perhaps that's not fair, but it does look that way.

As I've said on my user talk page, elsewhere in Wikipedia, I make occasional edits to a list of islands by highest point. As is usual in Wikipedia, this list contains flags next to the names of the country/countries that cover the island. That means well over a hundred different flags. Now I'm sure some of these flags have local connotations that are POV (for example, some Argentinians may dislike the Union Flag-based Falklands flag being displayed by the Falklands). My point is that I shouldn't need to worry about these issues. I should be able to use the flagicon template (or equivalently the three-letter form) and trust that to do the right thing. If someone converts those templates to not display an flag for Northern Ireland, I won't object, especially if some neutral image can be found instead of a flag — in fact, I'll probably support such a proposal. But what I do object to, is deleting uses of these templates, which are not per se anything but neutral.

— ras52 10:54, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The problem has been discussed here [|WP:FLAGCRUFT] and there was proposal [|here] to have a notice placed on the Template:Country data Northern Ireland and Template:NIR pages to advise editors not to use the template in certain circumstances, this discussion is still open although it has quieten down now.   The problem with using an alternative image in the flagicon and NIR is finding one that a concensus can be found on, the Irish Ruby team use ReverseIRLru  or IRLru  which might be acceptable for templates such as Lists of Marilyns.--padraig3uk 11:23, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Does a shamrock (I assume that's what that leaf is) distinguish Northern Ireland from the Republic of Ireland? That's a genuine question. If it does, I'm happy with it.  I appreciate the difficulty in finding an alternative icon, however that should be done centrally on some Ireland-related page (such as pages you note).  It really isn't sensible to introduce per-country restrictions about the use of flagicon: there are well over 200 countries or country-like entities covered by that template.  Imagine what would happen if they all had their own quirks of usage — I just want a template that I can use without (much) thought, knowing that others with more detailed knowledge have chosen the most appropriate image for me.  That's not too naïve an aspiration, is it? — ras52 12:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The shamrock is the symbol of St Patrick, who is patriot Saint in both Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland, so I can't see anyone objecting to it being used, the rugby team use it and it represents both areas. It would be impossible to alter the NIR template itself, as that is mainly used in sports articles such as the commonwealth games, were the ulster banner is used as a symbol for the teams, so we have to create a alternative to that such as  or something like that.--padraig3uk 13:17, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


 * There is also this Northern Ireland from  Northern Ireland which uses the Union Flag, which is the only offical flag currently for Northern Ireland.--padraig3uk 13:25, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok, I propose as a solution: leave this template be, with the intact, until such time as the real issue is dealt with over at Template talk:Country data Northern Ireland. Does that sound agreeable? DBD 13:30, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The only problem with that is the continued use of the NIR template on templates refering to Northern Ireland today, as I pointed out this Northern Ireland from  Northern Ireland is the only offical flag and if this is used on these templates by ras52 instead I would have no problem with it.--padraig3uk 13:42, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know where you've got this idea from – there is no need whatsoever for a representative symbol on wikipedia to be the official flag. Please do as I have advised, and accept my solution – the place to argue all of this is at the country data talk page, or WikiProject Northern Ireland. DBD 14:10, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * So your saying we shouldn't have to use the official flag, but its ok to use a un-official flag that is regarded by many people in Northern Ireland as sectarian and partisan, and which was never the official flag of state, and which the British government don't recognise.--padraig3uk 14:29, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * No, my not saying that at all (see what I did there? :P) I am not endorsing or opposing the current flag usage, I am just saying that it is an issue for discussion at the flag template space, NOT here. Please stop assuming bad faith, I am an impartial mediator in this discussion, not your enemy. DBD 14:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry I wasn't assuming bad faith on your part, just looking for carification on what you meant.--padraig3uk 14:54, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm happy with your suggestion, DBD. Can you confirm that by "leave this template be, with the  intact", you mean leave it as it was this morning with  ?  It hasn't used  for quite some time — though if you meant to suggest reverting to using that, that's fine by me too.  Moving the argument to the country data talk page is precisely what I'm after; if they decide to change the flag, then so be it.  I just want to get back to writing about mountains ;-)  — ras52 16:32, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Bull's-eye. DBD 16:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I would disagree with the use of the Ulster Banner in the this and other non sports orientated templates. Why not use a neutral image such as a the outline of Northern Ireland or the Northern Ireland assembly flax symbol.--Vintagekits 17:53, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Please don't come here and comment without reading the previous discussion. If had, you'd know this case has closed, and the issue at heart, that of NI flag use, is NOT for discussion here. DBD 20:31, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Why does it say the '"state is OPEN"? regards--Vintagekits 20:33, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The issue of the Ulster Banner is at heart here when this edior User:Astrotrain is using this decision as justification to include the Ulster Banner into all template concerning Northern Ireland.--padraig 20:36, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Why have you closed it without a solution being found. Seems a bit of a cop out!--Vintagekits 20:52, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The solution was found: that the NI flag issue is to be discussed elsewhere! And would you blame me for "copping out" when certain users are so discourteous in this matter?! Seriously, go away, calm down, then go back to WPNI or the country data talk page, and contribute with an objective mindset DBD 22:00, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I am cool as a cumbumber my friend. I understand what you as say - "a flag or symbol can be used" - but an editor is taking that as a carte blanche green light to add the Ulster Banner to the article without concensus to do so. I have no problem with the UB or other banner/symbol/flag being used in these templates as long as it is correct to do so and there is concensus to do so. For clarification can you please just confirm that the outcome of this cabal was not to endorse the use of the Ulster Banner within template heading to represent Northern Ireland.--Vintagekits 08:11, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The resolution was that this template should contain the markup which at present will display the Ulster Banner.  However by changing the Country data Northern Ireland template, you can change this to display any image you like, or indeed no image.  And we agreed to respect any such change.  The question being addressed here was not "should the article use the Ulster Banner" as no-one here tried to defend its use; instead the question was "where should the decision on the flag be made", and the resolution was that it should be made either on the country data page, but not on the individual templates using the flag.  That way the discussion is kept in one place.  Let me reiterate once more: no-one here has tried to defend the use of the Ulster Banner.  — ras52 10:01, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that response, the point is User:Astrotrain is now using this case and claiming it gives permission to use the Ulster Banner on all template, which it clearly dosen't.--padraig 10:17, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, then he's not right in doing so. This cabal case neither condones nor rejects the use of the Ulster banner. Bottom line. (Now go away :P) DBD 10:26, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you for that, I'll now vanish!!--Vintagekits 10:28, 11 August 2007 (UTC)