Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-06-20 Russian-speaking countries and territories

Request Information
Some editors (no doubt native/ethnic Estonians unhappy about the long Soviet occupation) keep removing this category from that country's article even though a large number of people living in Estonia still speak Russian and up to a third of the population is ethnically Russians. Editors of the Baltic countries are removing them from the category 'Category:Russian-speaking countries and regions', when every other post Soviet country, including countries without Russian as an official language, are listed. The 'Category:Countries by language" states that countries should be categorized by official language or de facto. Baltic editors are claiming that the Baltic countries shouldn't be listed because it is not an official language in their countries. Russian is certainly a de facto official language in the Baltic countries. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania do not have Russian as official language, but neither do Ukraine and Georgia and other post-Soviet countries which are still listed. Other editors say that they should be included because of the large Russian minority (a third of people are Russians in Estonia and Latvia) and because almost all of the people of the Baltic countries can speak and understand Russian as it was the official language of the USSR. The Russian language has a unique status in that all the post-Soviet countries were united under the USSR where Russian was the official language, and the countries have significant Russian populations and Russian speaking residents, which a lot of the countries in "Category:English-speaking countries and territories", do not.

Who are the involved parties?

 * User:Ilya1166
 * User:Suva
 * User:3 Löwi
 * User:Wassermann
 * User:Jmnil
 * 172.164.80.216

What is the involved article(s)?

 * Estonia
 * Latvia
 * Lithuania

What would you like to change about that?
I would like to get clearance whether Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania should or should not be included in this category.

Mediator response
According to the description set forth by Wikipedia for Category: Countries by language, "To categorize countries per official language. When a country does not have an official language (e.g. the United States), a de facto categorization is used.", the aforementioned countries listed in this dispute, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania should not be listed in the category 'Category:Russian-speaking countries and regions'.

Per the United Nations, "According to article 6 of the Estonian Constitution the official language of Estonia is Estonian." (http://www.unhchr.ch/tbs/doc.nsf/0/4b5dc8a1bf2c19f2c1256ae2004e4cd7/$FILE/G0143444.doc Pg. 5).

Per the United Nations, "The official language in the Republic of Latvia is the Latvian language." (http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/UNTC/UNPAN018409.pdf Pg. 2, Section 3 (1))

Per the United Nations, the official language of Lithuania is Lithuanian (http://www.unisdr.org/eng/country-inform/lithuania-general.htm)

Albeit, "Category:Russian-speaking countries and regions" is a bit misleading on what countries should be in it, the official description from Wikipedia should be clear enough, and should take precedence over the names of the categories and sub-categories until such time that the description or the categories/sub-categories are changed.

Therefore, in holding to the description from Wikipedia for Category: Countries by language, "To categorize countries per official language. When a country does not have an official language (e.g. the United States), a de facto categorization is used.", it is so concluded that these three Country-States should not be included within "Category:Russian-speaking countries and regions."

Btwoodward 02:03, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Discussion
Russian is not de jure language in Estonia, nor in Latvia, nor in Lithuania. And this is what the category expects. Also claiming Russian is de facto language in Baltic States is factually incorrect. Specially for Lithuania. Suva 10:10, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Correction: Russian is de jure a language. Russian is not the official language, nor an official language, however.  For any official purposes, it's on par with all other foreign languages, just like Swahili or Inuktitut.  Digwuren 12:44, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

According to the Eurostat poll around 80% of the Lithuanians can hold a conversation in Russian and almost all are familiar with the most general phrases and expressions.--Ilya1166 15:14, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Which is quite irrelevant. Digwuren 12:44, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

And this doesn't still make it an official language. BTW, most Estonians can speak English, many can speak German. Suva 10:08, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Russian is spoken as a native language by a third of Estonians, and is spoken fluently by the majority of the population, unlike English.--Ilya1166 11:03, 24 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Right. The people in Estonia don't know any English at all.  That's why we're holding this very conversation here in Tok Pisin, you see. Digwuren 12:44, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Ilya1166's suggestion clearly contradicts with the definition provided with Category "Countries by language". Other than that, I request no additional information, and wish not to further engage in the debate here which Ilya1166 has already started in an offensive manner. Good luck, --3 Löwi 20:26, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

The mediator response is sufficient. Suva 11:03, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, glad this question is finally settled so that there will be no more disputes between opposing editors.--Ilya1166 14:57, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. --3 Löwi 15:14, 25 June 2007 (UTC)