Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-08-11 UK subdivisions

Who are the involved parties?
Mainly me (User:Ras52) and User:Padraig; but also User:Biofoundationsoflanguage, User:Astrotrain, User:Fennessy, User:Barryob, User:Vintagekits and two anonymous IP addresses: 163.167.129.124 and 90.240.21.121.

What's going on?
This mediation request is about recent edit warring on Template:UK subdivisions (most actively) and Template:World Heritage Sites in the United Kingdom, though I believe similar arguments are happening / have happened elsewhere.

Both templates are navigation tables transcluded by a number of pages, and both group their contents by the constituent countries of the UK (England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland). In common with a number similar templates, flags are used next to four country names. In both cases, through slightly different ways, the templates use the flagicon template to display the appropriate flag, by writing, e.g. .  This is a general purpose template that is designed to display a suitable flag at icon size for general usage. The decision as to which flag (or other icon) to display, or whether to not display a flag, is delegated to the Country data Northern Ireland template.

Padraig's wishes to remove the NI flag by removing the use of this template. His reason is that the choice of flag used to represent Nothern Ireland is controversial with the Ulster banner being seen by some to have Unionist connotations. This is undisputed; however, it is also not relevant, in my opinion. These templates use the flagicon template correctly, and do not specifically request that the Ulster Banner is displayed. If that template is at fault, the issue should be taken up on Template:Country data Northern Ireland. However it seems that padraig3uk has taken it up there and failed to get them to change it, and is now systematically going through Wikipedia removing uses of it that he doesn't like. The issue has also been discussed elsewhere in WikiProject Northern Ireland — in fact, it sometimes feels like this and what to call the British Isles are the only things discussed there.

The result is that the self same argument repeats time after time. It has already been the subject of one Mediation Cabal case. This resulting edit wars are highly disruptive to Wikipedia, and often end with editors going along with Padraig's version just to get rid of him.

What would you like to change about that?
I would like the solution from the previous mediation to be agreed as a solution to these two templates and to all other similar examples.

The solution to that mediation was that the template should use (perhaps with an additional size parameter, but with no parameters to select a non-default flag). If the arguments about the Ulster Banner being partisan do indeed have merit, Padraig et al. should be encouraged to take the issue up at Template talk:Country data Northern Ireland, where those interested in such matters can argue it out, and any changes will automatically be propagated to all navigation templates.

Mediator notes
Offering to mediate the case, asking involved parties. ɑʀкʏɑɴ 17:17, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Note - participants may seek other remedies other than informal mediation due to previous MEDCAB case. ɑʀкʏɑɴ 17:21, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

As it appears the requester is seeking other means of resolving this dispute I'm going to go ahead and close this case. If a request is made to reopen it, I will gladly do so. ɑʀкʏɑɴ 20:52, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Discussion
I would like to reiterate a few points that I have made elsewhere. First of all, I have no attachment to the use of the Ulster Banner, though I have a very mild preference to see a flag of some sort retained.

However, I think uniformity across Wikipedia (at least where appropriate) is a good thing, and because of that, I would like to continue using a template such as flagicon (or a similar one, if a more appropriate one exists). If something needs changing, I would rather that it were undefined. One reason for this is that the contributors to that template are more likely to be knowledge about the subtle overtones that different flags/icons convey than the contributors. If I'm writing about the administrative geography of the UK, I shouldn't need to understand a highly fraught question on Irish flag usage.

I make occasional edits to a list of islands by highest point. As is usual in Wikipedia, this list contains flags next to the names of the country/countries that cover the island. That means well over a hundred different flags. Now I'm sure some of these flags have local connotations that are POV (for example, some Argentinians may dislike the Union Flag-based Falklands flag being displayed by the Falklands). My point is that I shouldn't need to worry about these issues. I should be able to use the flagicon template and trust that to do the right thing. If someone converts those templates to not display an flag for Northern Ireland, I won't object, especially if some neutral image can be found instead of a flag — in fact, I'll probably support such a proposal. But what I do object to, is deleting uses of these templates, which are not per se anything but neutral.

— ras52 01:29, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with the Ulster banner being used in an appropriate manner. The Ulster banner is used in limited sporting context to represent Northern Ireland but has not been used legally or offically to as the flag of Northern Ireland for over 30 years. It is not a neutral flag and is unencyclopedic. I would support an alternate flag/symbol being used to represent Northern Ireland (e.g. the NI assembly logo or the outline of NI logo) but using the Ulster banner in a non Loyalist or sporting context is wrong.--Vintagekits 20:38, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I also disapprove of your POV portrayal of the issue at hand here. The way wiki works is that if you want material to be add you either have to provide evidence to prove that or build concensus to use it. Neither is true with regards the Ulster banner. You also portray Padraig as being the edit warring editor involved here, actually in my opinion it is Astrotrain. Padraig uses reason and logic to get his points across wereas Astrotrain uses reverts. As for edit warring - [this is what happened] when I tried to discuss, rationally I might add. the issue with Ras, he told me to "piss off" and refused to apologies. --Vintagekits 20:44, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * You're not listening to what I'm saying. This mediation request (which has not yet been accepted, so isn't official, and maybe replaced with a more formal means of dispute resolution) is about where to decide on the flag; it is not about what flag should be used.  Everything you say may well be correct, but I don't propose to be dragged into an argument about which flag should be used — I don't claim to appreciate the issues well enough to do so.  But this argument should be taken somewhere appropriate, where it will be seen by people with suitable expertise, and that place is ultimately Template talk:Country data Northern Ireland.  Otherwise the same argument gets repeated over and over and across Wikipedia.  Please do not assume I'm trying to defend use of the Ulster Banner; I'm not.  — ras52 20:48, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well that is something that we both agree on, I would love one centralised dicussion on this issue to sort it out once and for all. I just did not appricate the abuse you gave me. As you may have noticed I keep my edits on this issue almost exclusively to the talkpages and try to avoid revert wars where possible so did not appricate you tell me to piss off when I was trying to sort the issue out, and I also didnt appricate your slanted sumation of the issue either.--Vintagekits 20:52, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, perhaps we can work towards moving it one centralised discussion? I've said repeatedly I'll respect the outcome of such a discussion and that I don't propose to participate in it myself.  It may be that Astrotrain is behaving equally tendentiously; but I've not been able to determine that.  It's not clear to me whether he's pushing the use of flagicon like me so that once a centralised decision has been made, a one line change to Country data Northern Ireland will propagate the changes everywhere, or whether he's actively in favour of displaying the Ulster Banner.  I had assumed the former, but perhaps I'm wrong; perhaps he has partisan opinions.
 * As to telling you to "piss off and take your argument with you", if you can't tell, I'm thoroughly fed up with this argument rampaging through Wikipedia, and frankly that is exactly what I want to happen. (Note "you" was meant as second person plural, and aimed at all of the parties involved.)  I had hoped that the last Medcab case would cause a centralised discussion to take place, but it didn't; it just caused the argument to move to other templates, and it's just hit one that I care about.  That is what I want to stop. I don't think fundamentally that you and I disagree on this.  I'm sure you want the issue resolved once and for all, just as I do.  But please, please, please, take the discussion to an appropriate place.  — ras52 21:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * This issue has already been brought up at Template talk:Country data Northern Ireland the opinion there is that that template is primarly intended for use in sports for which the Ulster Banner has usage, and that any other use should be dealt with in the relevent articles and templates where it is being misused.--padraig 01:48, 12 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, that's explicitly contrary to what the flagicon template says — it states that template variants (e.g. syntaxes like ) might be needed for sports usage.  And given that other templates exist for sports use as well (e.g. ru et al.), I find it hard to believe that that can be true any longer, if it ever were true.  Perhaps it's the case that many uses of the template are in sports articles, but that's a different thing altogether.  — ras52 02:06, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * As you are becoming to find out Ras, NI is not represented by the Ulster banner in all sporting, soccer and the comonwealth games are the main ones I can think of. Obviously the solution is to edit the template because it seems that it is the source of the problem.--Vintagekits 09:24, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Clearly the Ulster Banner is used to represent Northern Ireland- even if it is not an official flag (assuming the definition of a official flag is that of one used by the central government). It's a similar situation with the St George's Cross being used to represent England, even though it is not used by the central government. It seems that some editors are taking a political view on this, even though the templates in question are not political in nature. Astrotrain 12:04, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If it was "Clearly ........used to represent Northern Ireland" then we wouldnt be having this discussion would we. The Ulster banner is BANNED from being flown civil and governmental building, it is not used by the Northern Ireland Assembly and is rejected by nationalists and republicans. It is used to represent Northern Ireland is some sporting contexts that is all. Not so clear now is it?--Vintagekits 12:09, 12 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The flag still represents Northern Ireland. Are you seriously suggesting that this is not a flag used to represent Northern Ireland, given its use in sport, local government and the Unionist community? Astrotrain 12:30, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes of course I am because that is that facts, the flag is used by a handful of strongly Unionist local councils, Unionists, Loyalist and very limited sporting contexts thats all as I said it is NOT recognised by any government even the British government. I am not trying to convience you (no one can ever do that) my audience is the readers of this mediation cabal.--Vintagekits 12:33, 12 August 2007 (UTC


 * Its use in some sports dosen't amount to making it a flag to represent Northern Ireland especially in these templates, as for your claim that it is used in local government, it is used by at most three out of twenty-eight local authoraties in Northern Ireland, and these are Unionist dominated hardly representative of Northern Ireland, within the Unionist community, the major flag useage is of the Union Flag, with only a minority of Loyalists using the Ulster Banner in fact the reason the majority of Unionist don't use the Ulster banner is because of it being viewed as a symbol of Loyalist extremism and parliamilitaries.--padraig 12:41, 12 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The sports need a flag to represent Northern Ireland and what do they use- the UB. Thus when we need a flag to represent NI- we use the UB. The Union Flag is the official central government flag in Northern Ireland but it is not a Northern Irish flag- only the UB is. The Union Flag does not represent Northern Ireland as a single entity. Perhaps you don't like the flag or think it offensive, but we don't censor Wikipedia to suit any minority. Astrotrain 12:47, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Its not about censoring wiki, I support the use of the Ulster banner for the commonwealth games and soccer articles and have actually added it to a number of articles recently, this is about being factually correct, we cant just make up that there is a flag of Northern Ireland when there isnt one.--Vintagekits 12:54, 12 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Again I repeat nobody is disputing its use in some sports, like football and the Commonwealth games, and use of the Ulster Banner is that context is entirely correct. But these templates have nothing to do with sport.  This flag dosen't represent Northern ireland as a Country or State therefore its use in these templates is misleading as it conveys a status to the banner it dosen't have.  The issue here has nothing to do with what you or I like or dislike, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a soapbox for partisan political views, its role is to present facts, and your correct we don't censor WP to suit a minority, nor do we allow a minority to misrepresent the truth to push their POV, which you are clearly trying to do.  You are trying to push a Banner that neither the British government, nor the Northern Ireland Assembly and it government the Northern Ireland Executive recognise or will even allow to be used in any official capicity, for to be flown from any governmental building within Northern Ireland.--padraig 13:04, 12 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Again I repeat, no one is saying this is the official flag of Northern Ireland (assuming official means the flag used by the central government), but it is the unofficial flag of Northern Ireland- see flags.net for example (where it shows the flag and says "Northern Ireland (unofficial)). Just because the government does not use the flag does not mean that it does not represent NI. That is why it is used in situations where Northern Ireland is represented as a single entity and there is a need for a flag. That is why it is used internationally. Astrotrain 13:13, 12 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Outside of sport this flag is not used to represent Northern Ireland internationaly, how can a flag that has no official status or recognisition by the Government of Northern Ireland or by Westminster represent the state abroad, its use in the Commonwealth games is only because the local sports body in Northern Ireland use it as a symbol not because the organisation responsible for staging the games recognise it, they leave that decision to the local bodies.--padraig 13:22, 12 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The flag represents Northern Ireland, that is why it is used when a flag is needed. That is why the sporting and international bodies use the flag. The government don't use it as the don't use any subnational flags. Astrotrain 14:27, 12 August 2007 (UTC)


 * You keep repeating this claim it represents Northern Ireland so I will ask you again to provide a source to support this claim of its un-official outside of sport in the international stage. If your so convinced that your right that providing sources to support that claim, failure to do so is WP:OR.--padraig 14:34, 12 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The St Georges Flag is not used by central government because your refering to what is the British Government NOT the English government, but the British government does recognise the St Georges flag as the flag of England, like it recognises the flags of Scotland and Wales as representive of those countries.  But in the case of Northern Ireland the Union Flag is the only recognised flag, because the Ulster Banner was never recognised as a Northern Ireland flag but as  a governmental banner used to solely represent the Government of Northern Ireland only, between 1953-1972, then when that government was prorogued by Westminster and the devolved Government suspended in 1972, then abolished under the Northern Ireland Constitution Act 1973 which also abolished all the trappings of power of the former government including its flag.--padraig 12:24, 12 August 2007 (UTC)