Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-10-03 The Classic Crime

What's going on?
There is a dispute on the bands genre, and whether they are christian rock or not.Hoponpop69 23:45, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Initial description of dispute
I added a source that said the band belonged to this genre, and user:Skateremorocker keeps removing it without much reason. An edit war has ensued.Hoponpop69 23:45, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Hoponpop69's view
That all genres listed have good sources, and that said genres do not got removed, in Skateremorockers case with penalty of a block. If the band themselves claims they are not Christian rock (and this is sourced), but a valid source does, then a section like that in the Anberlin article would be appropriate. I'd lso like to see that Skateremorocker learns to stop removing sourced info, and learns what constitutes a good source. Hoponpop69 01:53, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Sk8erforzero's view
Fill in here

Skateremorocker's view
If you look down at the page you will see that i have put a comment about how i fell. Thank you for your time.

Preliminary impression
So, from what I'm hearing the dispute is over the genre of the band The Classic Crime. Apparently, Hoponpop69 feels that the band's genre is "Christian rock". However, Skateremorocker disagrees, claiming that while some of the bands members are Christian, and they play at Christian festivals, that they are not properly classified as "Christian rock". The source for the genre is currently that they played at a Christian rock concert. Now, my feelings about the source are that: What I think would be a good way forward would be to write a little bit about their genre in the article. We definitely need a better source for the genre; I think we can all agree on that fact. However, I'd like can find some reliable sources discussing them, and their relationship to Christian rock, that explain how they aren't a "Christian rock" band. I think this would not only be better encyclopedically, but would help de-escalate the situation.
 * It's questionable as to whether or not they are Christian rock, based on the source. It's a very trivial mention, and doesn't really talk about their genre at all.
 * However, the author of the piece felt acceptable to imply that they're "Christian musicians" (which everyone agrees is generally true).

So, if you agree or disagree with this general assessment, and the plan of action, please comment below so we can move forward. --23:02, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok Hoponpop69 why did you go on the page and delte everything. we agreeed on saying at we will leave the page the way it is till the disscution is over and hoponpop changed thats wrong. and to comment agian so what if they perofrom at a christian rock festival non christian band but the band has some christian members in the band perform that festivals like Cornerstone.User:Skateremorocker
 * Read the source again, it does more than just say the band played at a Christian festival. The headline says "Christian musicians rock festival at Snohomish farm", this labels tha band as playing Christian music.Hoponpop69 01:55, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Just a note; I did, but that's it. It's why I said they imply they're "Christian musicians"; but it's too general to be firm.  It could just be lazy writing.  --Haemo 02:51, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I didn't delete everything, I just removed genres in the infobox that had been known to be unsourced.

Don't take this the wrong way, but is English not your natural language? You seem to have a lot of grammatical trouble, and the fact that you can't see why performing at a Christian rock festival might make people think they're a Christian band, makes me think there is some sort of a language gap between us.Hoponpop69 02:49, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Mediation

 * Okay fellows, so it's clear that your disagreement is over what the source says. Now, what it does say is in the title "Christian musicians rock festival at Snohomish farm".  It mentions The Classic Crime as one of the bands performing.  Now,
 * Hoponpop69 feels that this means they are a Christian band, and their genre is Christian Rock.
 * Skatemorocker feels that while they played at a Christian festival, they are not predominately a "Christian band" and calling their genre Christian rock is incorrect.


 * Now, I'm going to pose a couple of questions to each of you, and I'd like you to respond:

For Hoponpop69:
 * 1) Do you agree that the article never clearly says their genre is "Christian rock", and instead only implies that it is?
 * 2) Do you agree that their genre is "rock"; leaving the question of it being Christian, or otherwise, aside?
 * 3) Do you agree that a better source should be found to back up your claim they are a "Christian rock" band?  Why or why not?

'Replies go here: Hoponpop69 23:41, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) I agree it implies it. Is there a policy that implications can not be considered sources?
 * 2) No. Rock is an umbrella term, and would be an inefective genre do list in the infobox.
 * 3) See my response to question 1.

For Skatemorocker
 * 1) Do you agree that the article implies that the band is a Christian band?
 * 2) Do you agree that their genre is "rock"; leaving the question of it being Christian, or otherwise, aside?
 * 3) Do you agree that sources should be found to back up your claim that they are not a "Christian rock" band?  Why or why not?

Once we've got this down, we can move on. --Haemo 03:07, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

'Replies go here:
 * 1) No I don't agree that the artice says there a christian rock band, and also like i said the band has said only like two or three members of the band are not christian.
 * This wasn't what I asked. --Haemo 03:33, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) in away i guess
 * 2) yes and no
 * What do you mean "yes and no"? It was a why or why not question.Hoponpop69 17:44, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, with the above responses, I think we can move forward. Firstly, it's clear that the crux of the disagreement is over the implication in the current source. Hoponpop69 feels that the implication that they are a Christian band is sufficient to call their genre Christian rock &mdash; you both agree they are rock, of some form, but don't agree whether it's Christian, or whether "rock" is descriptive enough as a genre. Skatemorocker disagrees with this reading of the source. Now, I'm just going to opine that an implication is not sufficient when there is good faith disagreement over the genre of a band. We could solve this dispute once and for all if either of you find a source that definitively says one way or another. I would suggest that you both go ahead and take a look for something of this form. However, beyond that, what proposals do you suggest for moving forward from here? -Haemo 03:33, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Suggestions? --Haemo 19:36, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I've already conceeded that no source I could find directly states they are Christian, and removed the genre from the infobox. I think attention now needs to be focused on educating the skaters on what a valid source is, so that this article does not go to hell after the mediation ends. This is something I suggested should be discussed back in my original proposal for mediation.Hoponpop69 23:48, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Excellent; so I would just ask skatemorocker, what questions do you have about reliable sources? Do you understand the guidelines?  --Haemo 02:41, 17 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Since there's been no reply, I'm going to close this case soon. --Haemo 18:35, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Notes on ongoing progress
This request was a little bit malformed. I've proposed myself as a mediator; if anyone objects, I'll withdraw. --Haemo 23:36, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm going to need you to add other involved users to the above "involved parties" section, and to notify them about this discussion. --Haemo 01:27, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I would like to be apart of this skateremorocker is in the wrong for delting you information. Agree:Sk8erforzero
 * Okay, I'd like each of the involved editors to write a brief, civil statement explaining what your ideal resolution to this would be. --Haemo 00:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I would also like to be apart of this iam not trying to be a pain in the butt, but all aima trying to say is that is a band has said they dont want to be consider a christian band then why do you put on the band genre that they are a christian. I mean just because they perform at a christian festival means nothing, and i never said all the members in the band are not christian only two members are not christians. Also many non christian band but with christian members have performed at christian festivals.skateremorock


 * "many non christian band but with christian members have performed at christian festivals"

Please show me some evidence to back up this claim.

"all aima trying to say is that is a band has said they dont want to be consider a christian band then why do you put on the band genre that they are a christian"

We already went over this in the Anberlin discussion, the band could claim to be a Norwegian Death Metal band, but that wouldn't make it true. What genre the band claims they are or aren't holds no weight here.Hoponpop69 01:36, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

If you go on The Cornerstone Christian festival page it talks Non christian bands but the band my have some christian members perform at Cornerstone. And if you go on The Classic Crime Last fm page if you go on there BIO it talk about Them not being a christian band and thats soruced info. and them being punk and Alternative was to.

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say in the first sentence because of the poor English, are you saying the Cornerstone Festival page claims some of the bands who perform aren't Christian bands? If so please provide a link to it here. As for your second statement please show me this source here as well. Hoponpop69 23:45, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Iam sorry for my friend hoponpop69. Skateremorocker is a chinese jamaican both his parents are from china but they move to jamaica when they were little and Skater was born there, and his parents mostly speck chinese around him, and now that i've got that out the way i have been on many cite were people are talking about The Classic Crime and that there not a christian band. heres one cite. http://www.christian-gaming.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=54&thread_id=946&pid=8683. and also i have informtion that they are an Indie Rock band.

Are you Chinese as well, because you have the exact same grammar as him, and like him don't sign your posts.Hoponpop69 18:35, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I've added this to Suspected sock puppets/skateremorocker as the writing style is identical to that of emorocker.Hoponpop69 18:43, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh my goodness Hoponpop. dude you are starting to bother me. Would you fell better if i till my friend to change his name. and in away were you making fun of my Backround say " I'm guessing your chinese to because your grammer sucks to".

And my grammer doesnt suck that bad. what are you perfect.Sk8er rocker

The proper way to say that would be "My grammar doesn't suck that bad. What are you perfect?". In all honesty your writing looks like that of an 8 year old. Your lack of understanding of the English language is further exemplified by the fact that you couldn't understand the joke I made about skaterzero's writing style being exactly the same as yours (to the point where I suspect sockpuppetry), and instead you thinking I'm being racist.Hoponpop69 23:56, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * If you guys aren't willing to move forward with this, I don't see any point in continuing. I've requested some suggestions for how you want to move forward; please render some, rather than persisting in this pointless sniping.  --Haemo 20:54, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

If you think the Christian Gamers Association forum is a valid source...
Then we desperately need to have a discussion on what is and isn't a good source, for the sake of this article and future articles you may edit.Hoponpop69 18:46, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Why does Skateremorocker continue to restore unsourced information?
Hoponpop69 23:37, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

The source for the Indie rock genre also lists the band as alternative contemporary christian music
Is it valid, or shoulod both genres be removed? Hoponpop69 01:41, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

ya i think christian commtemporary should be deleted due to the fact i have never seen them labeled that before. They are label Indie Rock alot more.
 * I don't see any mention of that in the source listed, so I think you're right about the removal. --Haemo 19:37, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Um under styles on the left hand side of the page it says alternative ccm, in fact it lists it above Indie rock.|CLASSIC|CRIME&sql=11:jnfoxqysld0e~T0Hoponpop69 14:42, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Also skater's reasoning that it should be deleted because they are "labeled indie rock a lot more" does not make any sense. There is only this one source that labels them as Indie rock, and it also labels them as alternative ccm, so there is in no sense "a lot more" labeling them indie rock.Hoponpop69 14:45, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Skater's reasoning is not based in sourcing, so I think we can ignore it for now. However, I can't seem to load the page you're viewing, so I'll have to reserve judgement. --Haemo 21:14, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Try clicking it again |CLASSIC|CRIME&sql=11:jnfoxqysld0e~T0 it's loading for me.Hoponpop69 22:34, 28 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Ah, that one works. I guess that's an issue you two are going to have to decide for yourselves; for what it's worth, that looks like a valid source to me.  --Haemo 04:17, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd actually like to call into question validity the source, the same site lists Green Day as alternative pop and post-grunge., it lists blink-182 as post grunge, Rancid as alternative pop, as well as RATM. Allmusic seems to use the same profiles as all music guide, which I and others have spoken out against as a bad source of genre information.

Also there is just no way the two of us would be able to come to consensus, for one thing skater does not know what constitutes a valid source, as evident by him editing user edited sites, and then using that a source. For another thing there is some what of a language barrier between us, and thirdly the whole point of wanting a mediation was so we could get an authoritative figure to guide us in this dispute. Hoponpop69 17:48, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok I think my source were the band says they are a Punk Rock band was good, and also i will put information about who the band has and had toured with. Also You making fun of me being Jamaican chinese is not cool iam trying my best. Iam mean iam only 16 give me a break. Oh and why did you ban my freind thats not cool. and From what i'm finding out iam close to find the information of band not being a christian band.Sk8errocker

When did I make fun of you for being chinese and Jamacian? Also you've been told multiple times that the band saying they are a certain genre is not a reliable source. Finally your "friend" was banned because he was found to be a sockpuppet.Hoponpop69 01:46, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, mediation can't go on forever. We have a reliable sources noticeboard which you can use for discussions like this one.  --Haemo 20:10, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay I'll take it to there. I have one more question though, multiple times I've asked that skater learns what a reliable source is, will you please explain that to him before this gets closed? Hoponpop69 01:35, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok i guess your too American to know that many chinese people live in jamaica. Like my friend ryan AKA Zerosk8er said that my parents were born in china but they have lived in jamaica most of there lives, and also i was born there and i had lived there untill i was nine years old. So thats what Jamaican chinese means I was born and raised in Jamaica but my back is Chinese Jamaican get it now. Also I know what reliable source is now. OK! oh and to add on my friend ryan doesn't hate you or anything he said wikiapendia is gay anyways. I mean the only reson why i come on here is to help and crap.Sk8errocker

You still haven't said how I have made fun of you for your ethnicity, and I demand an apology for being accused of racism. When you are self editing sites and using them as sources, you obviously don't know what a reliable source is.Hoponpop69 00:50, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Iam Sick of you accusing me for CRAp i didn't do like self editing site iam how can i even do that. Also the way your making fun of my ethnicity is by when my friend ryan said hes jamaican chinese thats way he has trouble typing, you said oh well you must be chinese to then becasue you do not type well also. Iam whats that mean HUH. and also i hate the fact how you think your so smart, and slick and crap like that, i mean Honestly iam coming to hate you. Iam mean i never hated you until now.Sk8errocker P.s User:Heamo i need to talk to you in privite plese.

I said he must be Chinese because you said you were Chinese and "your friend" typed exactly like you, and I assumed was in fact you. This idea was backed up by wikipedia who deemed him to be a sockpuppet of yours.

It is also clear you edited that user edited source, the person who first accused you of this will back me up. We're not blind, your typing style is distinctive, and we can tell it was you.01:15, 2 November 2007 (UTC)Hoponpop69


 * Okay, that's enough of this. I'll talk to Skateemorocker in private -- email me; the link is on my userpage.  The salient part of this mediation is complete.  Remember to see and follow reliable source guidelines. --Haemo 01:31, 2 November 2007 (UTC)