Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-07-02 Romanians

Request details
There is a dispute of views concerning the interpretation of results from several Y-DNA and mtDNA genetic studies on the article of "Romanians", chapter "Ethnogenesis". The user Rezistenta oposes user |MariusPetruStanica on this issue, without replying to any talk invitation.

What's going on?
'''A new text was introduced at the "Ethnogenesis" chapter, of the article "Romanians": ''' A number of recent genetic studies show a diversity of Y-DNA haplogroups in the Romanian population, as follows (without any of them forming an absolute majority): haplogroup I 22.2% (it can be found in most present-day European populations, with greatest density in Scandinavia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia and Sardinia), haplogroup R1a 20.4%, haplogroup R1b 13%, haplogroup E 7.4%, haplogroup J 5.6% and haplogroup G 5.6%. The results of these genetic studies show the same diversity in the Romanian population, as the culture of Romania and the history of Romania show.

'''This was not accepted by the user User:Rezistenta and led to a small edit war, see talk. —Preceding comment was added at 13:45, 30 June 2008 (UTC) Signed User:MariusPetruStanica'''

Added at: 13:39, 02 July 2008 (UTC) by: User:MariusPetruStanica '''After receiving no comments, no answers on the talks, no emails, unless very arrogant short statements, I see myself forced in changing the page. The answer from the User:Rezistenta is just silence and edit-war. I introduced a new text, without deleting what was previously written. This was immediately undone, with the explanation of Vandalism by User:Rezistenta.'''

''A modern tendency is to relate Human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup and Mitochondrial DNA genetic studies with the ethnogenesis of peoples. However, just a small number of works exists today, especially for the area of Eastern Europe, so that one would be enabled to correlate them with the ethnogenesis of Romanians or of any other people, in a fully scientifical accepted way. Usually, such studies are performed using a reduced number of persons, as a sample size, thus presenting limited nation-wide generalized results.

Some results from recent genetic studies may be interpreted in the way that the ethnic contribution of the indigenous Thracian and Daco-Getic population have made a significant contribution to the genes of the modern Romanian population and to the contribution to other Balkan (Albanians, Bulgarians and Greeks) and Italian groups.

Other results may be interpreted as small genetic differences being found among Southeastern European populations and especially those of the Dniester–Carpathian region. The observed homogeneity suggests either a very recent common ancestry of all southeastern European populations or strong gene flow between them. The genetic affinities among Dniester–Carpathian and southeastern European populations do not reflect their linguistic relationships. The results indicate that the ethnic and genetic differentiations occurred in these regions to a considerable extent independently of each other.

Haplogroup J is mostly found in South-East Europe, especially in central and southern Italy, Greece and Romania. It is also common in France, and in the Middle East. It is related to the Ancient Romans, Greeks and Phoenicians (J2), as well as the Arabs and Jews (J1). Subclades J2a and J2a1b1 are found mostly in Greece, Anatolia and southern Italy, and are associated with the Ancient Greeks. Haplogroup I2 comprising 22.2% of the Romanian population, can be found in present-day European populations, with greatest density on the Balkans, especially in Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia and also in Sardinia).

A possible conclusion of all these studies is that no Human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup or Mitochondrial DNA is highly dominant among the sample numbers of Romanians, fact supported by the long and diverse history of Romania.''

'''Recently, a new user, User:Jingiby mixed into it, as a Bulgarian nationalist. I am wondering what he has to do with all this, especially that he was previously been banned and warned about his attitude. See also the discussion among the two of them and the bizarre conclusions they arrived at User talk:Jingiby'''

What would you like to change about that?
At least let's find a place where to discuss, because just reverting modifications and no-replies to the Talk page of the article does not help. These people seem to believe they are the owner of the perpetual truth and nobody can match them.

The main change is the disappearance of the section regarding the Haplogroup J. The cited source does not say in any case this would be the predominant haplogroup among Romanians. It just states the existence of this haplogroup and the authors, members of the "Institute for Thracology", declare this was also found in other populations, where the Thracians were present. This is why I consider the conclusions of the users: User:Rezistenta and User:Jingiby as very hasty and at the limit propagandistic. Romania is a diverse country, with a diverse history, at the confluence of three important areas of culture and history in Europe. It is exactly the place where one cannot launch, nor base, X-centric theories (balkano-centric, nordic-centric, ...). I think Wikipedia is not a place for a group's propaganda.

Mediator notes

 * Case submitted. Marius-Petru Stanica 12:01, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * There's been no action on this case in quite a while - if it is still open, please consider reverting the page to the pre-edit condition, bringing the proposed change to the talk page and openly working toward consensus. Be respectful of differing views. If the new material can be supported by a reasonable source, even one that the participants do not all agree upon, it probably deserves at least mention as a possibility. Assume Good Faith, consider your own possible conflict of interest and remember that achieving a neutral point of view often means giving at least some measure of face time to conflicting theories. --Caernarvon (talk) 20:45, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Pericic et al. found a much higher frequency of e3b and J than what was given above ("...haplogroup E 7.4%[1], haplogroup J 5.6%...) > mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/22/10/1964 . I havent seen this Varzari source, but I would think this study is more comprehensive and representative ("high resolution"...). Food for thought. 69.19.14.44 (talk) 07:48, 23 July 2008 (UTC)