Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-08-02 Sicani

What's going on?

 * The issue: Who the Sicani were, what were their connections to Iberia (this is perhaps no longer an issue), and what were their connection, if any, to Malta.


 * Behavior: Myself, with minor support by The Ogre and full though brief support from Coren (3rd party opinion), opposed to Kyarichy, Cradashj, and numerous anon IPs. I initially responded to a complaint that unsupported allegations were being added to the Sicani article. (I do not remember the complainant to add to the list of interested parties.) My attempts to add fact tags to the allegations were met with often irrelevant and in any case unreliable references, such as family webpages and sources that mention Sicily but not the Sicani. I removed the faux sources and unsourced claims, and have gotten frustrated with what I can only think must be pretense to misunderstand the verifiability guidelines. Kyarichy, Cradashj, et al. do not address the concerns I have raised, only tell me that I am POV pushing, falsifying history, etc. I have myself engaged in edit warring, and once blocked the Sicani article for 24 hrs in an attempt to let things cool down. That article is now fine, but when I attempted to make the same corrections to Malta-related articles today, Cradashj reverted me.

I sought a 3rd-party opinion, and Coren answered. He sided with me (though warned me about my behaviour), and stated that the references did not support the claims, and even if they did they were not reliable. Cradashj believes that what he does after that opinion does not need to take it into consideration, even though he is using (or at least restoring) some of the same refs.


 * The evidence: Reliable references state that the Sicani were believed by the Greeks to be the oldest (or to perhaps be the oldest) of three ethnicities in Sicily at the time of Phoenician and Greek colonization ca 1000 BC. Thucydides states that the Sicani came from Iberia. (I believe that at the time "Iberia" included Gaul, but would have to verify this.) Archaeological evidence shows that Sicily was settled ca 8000 BC, that Gozo & Malta were settled ca 5000 BC from Sicily, and that there was Minoan contact with Sicily (pottery etc.).


 * The OR: From this, Kyarichy, Cradashj, et al. maintain that the Sicani were the original inhabitants of Sicily in 8000 BC, that it was they who settled Malta in 5000 BC, and (previously, based on a mention in an unreliable source) that the Sicani language had Iberian connections. Coren concluded that none of this was encyclopedic. I have insisted that any such claims be removed unless a reliable reference can be found. Personally, I would be most interested if any of it were true.

What would you like to change about that?
Kyarichy, Cradashj, et al. do not, or perhaps will not, understand Coren or myself, and claim to have consensus to add these claims. I would like help getting them to understand and accept the Wikipedia verifiability guidelines.

Mediator notes
I'll move the discussion here for the time being. All editors stay civil yadayada you know the rest. Xavexgoem (talk) 17:28, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

On hold 'til I get responses from folks. Will close if nothing within arbitrary # of days. Hope no-one minds Xavexgoem (talk) 04:50, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Administrative notes
All involved parties should note that there has been sock puppet disruption in this case. All the IPs and User: Kyarichy are sock puppets of indefinitely banned users.--Yolgnu (talk) 01:07, 3 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Here's another banned user who's used almost the same wording (though not disruptive): User:Soprani. In case there are any dots that still need connecting. kwami (talk) 02:51, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Please don't remove this discussion. It's for reference, and I don't want to have to edit the page or go through the history to read it Xavexgoem (talk) 17:35, 3 August 2008 (UTC)


 * 1) Kwamikagami, from checking your contributions, you seem to be engaging in edit wars everywhere:
 * Sicani
 * Sicani language (Now redirected to Sicani)
 * Origin of Hangul
 * Esperantido
 * Esperanto orthography
 * and so on
 * 1) Kwamikagami has an awful habit of when there is consensus against his view, he protects the page, as can be seen on Sicani (twice) and Origin of Hangul.
 * 2) The user has been warned about this by Coren, who said that Kwami needed to lower his temper, and was coming dangerously close to abusing his admin tools - oh wait, that was before Kwami actually then went on to abuse them.
 * 3) Also, Coren was only opposed to the changes with the original references. Since then, User:Cradashj added several more and tried rewriting the article to make sure it reflected the sources.
 * 4) You have not yet asked Coren of his/her views on those sources, so please do not present the information incorrectly. As it stands, there is no-one that currently agrees with you.
 * Oh, but Kwami still wouldn't accept the new references (without giving valid reason however), as can be seen by his revert here, here, here, oh, at which point he protected the page, after which he was reverted by another user, so Kwami reverted again, at which point being fully in excess of the 3RR, and then again, and then again. Oh, and that's not to mention all the reverts he/she made before the new sources were added:, , , , , oh, at which point he protected the page for the first time (the second time being later after Cradashj gave the extra refs).
 * 1) For reference, here are some of the 3RR breaks Kwamikagami has got into on other pages too. For some reason, on the Origin of Hangul article, despite the fact that "Hangul" is the proper noun of an alphabet, Kwami would not accept it being capitalized, and reverted, and moved the page from the capitalized title against consensus... and reverted again... and then moved again... and then reverted again... and then moved again... reverted again... moved again... reverted... yet this user is still not blocked in violation of 3RR?
 * 2) And on we go... let's have a look at Esperantido. Reverted here, here, here, here, and here.
 * OK, now Esperanto orthography: here, here, here, and well, all I can say is check the revision history.
 * 1) To be quite honest, I am surprised your admin tools haven't been temporarily redacted. You are in gross violation of 3RR in every meaning of the term.
 * 2) There are 2 IPs (One being myself), Cradashj, and Kyarichy all in consensus against you, and yet you still argue back. The Ogre, who originally reverted with you, stopped when the new sources were added, as did Coren; no one is in agreement with you anymore. It is becoming increasingly tiring now, and I think it may be time for you to take a short wikibreak, possibly enforced if need be.
 * Cheers --78.149.145.54 (talk) 08:58, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * All the IPs and Kyarichi are sockpuppets and will be indefinitely blocked shortly.--Yolgnu (talk) 09:34, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh, and your evidence for this being...? 78.149.145.54 (talk) 09:37, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * For the IPs, Requests for checkuser/Case/MagdelenaDiArco. As for Kyarichi, Thatcher will perform an IP check shortly. Cradashj seems to be the only user disagreeing with Kwami who isn't a sock; his style of writing doesn't match that of the puppet-master, User: Fone4My.--Yolgnu (talk) 09:48, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Firstly, I find nothing in that checkuser case which proves me to be a sockpuppet of anyone. I suggest you stop speculation until the checkuser case results come back. Until that time, you will just have to AGF. 78.149.145.54 (talk) 09:53, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you, Yolgnu. I thought they seemed rather belligerent for legitimate editors. I would like to continue this mediation with Cradashj, unless s/he prefers to work things out on the talk page. kwami (talk) 09:56, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Until a checkuser comes back and confirms any suspicions, you will AGF.
 * Back to the discussion in any case, "The Maltese islands were first settled in 5200 BC by stone age farmers who had arrived from the nearby, much larger island of Sicily, they were called Sicanians. The Sicani are generally regarded to be related to the Iberians". --78.149.145.54 (talk) 09:58, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Lovely. A mirror of the very Wikipedia article you're claiming to reference, on a "Cheap flights to Malta" site. Now that's scholarship. kwami (talk) 10:10, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh, and if it is a mirror of a wikipedia article, then by all means point out this wikipedia article? Secondly, the "cheap flights to malta" part is an advertisement at the top of the page. Please try to read. 78.149.145.54 (talk) 10:12, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Cradashj is the sole remaining editor who's supported these edits. Unless they respond (I just dropped a second note on their talk page), I don't think we have anything to discuss. kwami (talk) 02:57, 3 August 2008 (UTC)


 * This user (Cradashj) has been blocked indefinitely as being the sock of an Arbcom banned user (Yorkshirian), now indefinitely banned for evading the previous Arbcom one year ban. (See here for checkuser evidence.) So this matter seems to completely collapse now.  DDStretch    (talk)  08:18, 7 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay. I withdraw my request. The articles appear quiet. kwami (talk) 08:50, 7 August 2008 (UTC)