Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-09-08 Medical degree


 * Note: Please limit posts to this page to brief statements about the nature of the dispute until a volunteer adopts the case. Keep ongoing discussions about the topic to the appropriate talk page(s), but feel free to provide links to the talk page(s) where discussion has happened (and may be ongoing) for the convenience of the informal mediator and other parties. This will help keep discussion from fragmenting out across more pages and make it easier for a volunteer to review the case. Thanks!

Who are the involved parties?
Naturstud and jwri7474

What's going on?
Medical degree Dispute is whether or not the word "Medical degree" should be redirected to the article doctor of medicine. The "doctor of medicine" article I feel is a good redirect because it gives examples of all degrees that allow for the "practice of medicine" (i.e. MD, MBBS, DO, MBChB, etc) as described by each US (and other countries) local state boards of Medicine who regulate the "practice of medicine". The other editor(Naturstud) believes that the word "medical degree" and "medical school" should be interpreted to mean a graduate of any health care related degree to include education of (naturopaths, chiropractors, dentists, podiatrists, nurses, etc.). The other editor admits to being a naturopathy student and feels as though what he/she has completed (doctor of naturophy/naturopathic medicine) should be considered graduating from "medical school". Thank you for your help.

What would you like to change about that?
I would like for the article to be redirected to the article doctor of medicine

Mediator notes
OK, I will take this on. Let us see if we can't find a way of providing due recognition to the differing POV positions without violating WP:UNDUE Mayalld (talk) 21:44, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I picked this up on WP:3 and have almost got a solution, you can still be of help though, as we have a slight issue regarding the final layout. I have had to ask for full page protection (received). Going for much needed beer ... Fr33kman talk APW 03:48, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The parties are very close to a final agreement. Differences in wording seem to be all that remain. Looks good! :-) Fr33kman talk APW 23:55, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I believe the dispute to be resolved. Fr33kman talk APW 01:08, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Administrative notes
Putting mediation on hold temporarily, because this is already making progress at WP:3
 * Closed as resolved by WP:3 case Mayalld (talk) 13:03, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Discussion
I am sorry if this is not the right place to post, but must correct JWiri's attempt to build a 'straw man' argument above. I have never proposed that the medical degree page list all health care degrees (nurses etc), only that it describe all medical degrees, which can be said in to include the various "Doctors of Medicine".Naturstud (talk) 20:00, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

The definition of a strawman is that I am misrepresenting your argument. I asked you what your definition of "medical degree" and "practicing medicine" was.. and you said it was anyone who diagnosed and treated disease in animals or humans. All of the health care degrees I have listed fit this critera. So, no I do not believe this is a strawman nor have I simply willy nilly listed "all health care degrees"; but only the ones which fit Naturstud's very own definition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jwri7474 (talk • contribs) 17:29, September 10, 2008

Opening Remarks by Mediator
The locus of this dispute seems simple enough, and boild down to the question of whether the term Medical Degree should be held to mean only the narrower definition which restricts the term to degrees in mainstream medicine, or whether it can be construed more widely to include degrees in alternative medicine.

I suppose that a good starting point would be to ask if there we have reliable sources that attest to the wider usage of the term, and whether we have reliable sources that show that some other term is more usually used for the degrees in alternative medicine.

Reliable Sources that show use of the Medical Degree term for degrees in alternative medicine
I have collected a few examples showing usage as it relates to NDs from schools,doctors, patients, professional associations and media coverage (emphasis mine):
 * "the ND is an eclectic medical degree" - [British Columbia Naturopathic Association]
 * "4 Year Naturopathic Medical Degree Program (N.D.)" - Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine
 * "Dr. Suzanne Scopes has been studying, practicing and teaching naturopathic medicine since graduating with her medical degree from the National College of Naturopathic Medicine in Portland, Oregon" - An NDs website
 * "At the completion of his medical degree..." - Another ND website
 * "She received her medical degree from Bastyr University, the nation's leading naturopathic medical school" - Another ND... these go on forever.
 * "The type and amount of advanced standing will depend upon the type of medical degree already achieved (MD, DO, DC, etc.)" - AANMC discussion of advanced standing for other PCPs who wish to become NDs!
 * "To obtain a naturopathic medical degree (N.D.)..." - Massachucets Society of Naturopathic Doctors
 * "Naturopathic Practitioners receive a four-year, graduate level medical degree. The Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine degree (ND) is awarded after classroom, clinical and practical study." Another ND site
 * "All candidates for admission to the naturopathic medical degree program must furnish proof of having acquired a baccalaureate degree" University of Bridgeport admissions policy
 * "Many of the NDs (Naturopathic Doctors) in Seattle received their medical degree from Basytr University located in Kenmore..." Patient blogspot
 * "If a patient comes to see Fairbanks doctor Scott Luper with a small laceration, he can't stitch it up. Though Luper has a medical degree from an accredited school, Alaska law doesn't allow him to perform minor surgery or prescribe drugs because he is a naturopathic physician." - Article in the Juneau Empire

I don't feel that this is the best way to go forward because of course Nursing Programs and Naturopathic programs that POV push that their degrees are equivalent to the MD degree will refer to their degrees as "medical degrees".. that is the point. Jwri7474 (talk) 17:31, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
 * At present, I've placed this on hold, so that we can give WP:3 a chance. If that doesn't work, we can go ahead with the mediation.
 * It is, of course true that those who issue the degrees at the centre of this dispute will wish to present them in the best possible light. As such, sources that are not independent of those issuing or promoting these degrees cannot be given much weight. Mayalld (talk) 21:31, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "As such, sources that are not independent of those issuing or promoting these degrees cannot be given much weight." - I believe that this represents a sensible position. Fr33kman talk APW 21:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)