Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2009-02/Christian Bale

Where's the dispute?
At Christian Bale

What's the dispute?
Simple really - Christian Bale, is he English, Welsh, British, Welsh-born British or British? Of course, he's all these things...but consensus has suggested English as he identifies as this and was raised there to at least an English mother. However, he was born in Wales. Someone repeatedly puts 'Welsh-born British' - which not only implies he is Welsh, is also not specific enough. Compare Joe Calzaghe who is born in London to a Welsh mother and raised in Wales. He is described as Welsh. White43 (talk) 12:30, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Mediator's Comments

 * Not entirely sure this mediation is going to go anywhere. There seems to be only a single editor that is interested in this. The majority of those changing from the past consensus version seem to be IP users and registered users who are arbitrarily making changes without participation in the discussion. Trusilver  16:39, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Second party in dispute refuses mediation[]. Concluding discussions and preparing to close. Trusilver  03:53, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Closing mediation, no resolution reached. Trusilver  10:09, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Conclusion
User:Promethean refuses informal mediation, although he has shown next to no interest in resolving the dispute through direct communication or other channels. I have advised the other disputing parties of their options and can see no other course of action other than to close this case.

Archive of mediation (taken from subject talk page)
I have accepted the case made to WP:MEDCAB concerning the subject's nationality. I am currently researching the dispute and the references available. Bear with me for a little while as I am gathering information. In the meantime, I would like those involved in the dispute to cite me diffs that help to illustrate the conflict as well as to give me their opinion as to how the article should read. Trusilver 01:32, 24 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Diffs:


 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christian_Bale&diff=269522500&oldid=269385426
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christian_Bale&diff=269980454&oldid=269957194
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christian_Bale&diff=270311836&oldid=270144607
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christian_Bale&diff=270434063&oldid=270400421
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christian_Bale&diff=270865066&oldid=270734030
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christian_Bale&diff=271214472&oldid=271175817
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christian_Bale&diff=271926259&oldid=271844671
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christian_Bale&diff=271955258&oldid=271926259


 * As illustrated in the links above provided by User:Ha!, that nationality in the UK is simply not a case of labelling everyone 'British' despite this being the nationality on the passport. Britain comprises of three countries - England, Wales and Scotland and it has certainly been thrashed out that it is acceptable for British people to be labelled as English, Welsh or Scottish. In this case, Christian Bale was certainly born in Wales, but he does not identify as Welsh, as his mother and father were not Welsh. He only lived in a Wales for short number of years and was raised in England and identifies as an Englishman.


 * Certainly here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(biographies)/2007-2008_archive:_British_nationality


 * Nationality is discussed as :

'': Usage notes: 3a. Wherever possible, provide evidence of a person's nationality in a note.

3b. Where there is evidence of a person's preference as to how his or her nationality should be indicated, this should be respected and the evidence referred to in a note.

3c. Otherwise, if there is other sufficient, undisputed evidence of a person's nationality, such as birth and long residence in a country, nationality of that country may be stated.

3d. If there is no clear evidence of a person's nationality (e.g., if a person was born in one country and lived and worked partly in that country and partly in another), no nationality should be stated. No assumption regarding a person's nationality based on his or her place of birth or residence should be made.

3e. British nationals – The United Kingdom is comprised of four constituent countries: England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Although persons from these countries hold British nationality, there is consensus that if usage note 3b or 3c applies, a person should be described as "English", "Northern Irish (or Irish)", "Scottish" or "Welsh", as the case may be. In other cases, the person should be described as "British".

3f. Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. ''


 * (3e) states that if (3b) or (3c) applies, then a person should be referred to as English, Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish. (3b)Christian Bale refers to himself as English, so should not be referred to as British. (3c) Long residence in England and has an English mother.


 * With all this in mind and Bale's acknowledgement that he is an 'Englishman', it would seem to me that he should remain as an 'English actor'. The article already shows in the infobox that he was born in Wales and the opening paragraph states 'Although born in Wales'. Perhaps a note should indicate that Bale calls himself English, rather than Welsh. White43 (talk) 21:18, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Are you sure that any dispute still exists here? Reading above I see that there was no real discussion about starting a mediation case and nobody else here seems to be interested in participating in this discussion. As I see it, the dispute is pretty cut and dry. The manual of style very clearly outlines the treatment of a subject's nationality, and I feel there would need to be a very compelling reason to overturn that... a reason that I have yet to see. Trusilver 16:27, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * There are alot of anonymous IP posters that tend to change it - but it was User:Prometheus who certainly changed it three times without consultation and seems somewhat reluctant to argue his case here. White43 (talk) 17:42, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

There was considerable debate when anonymous IPs changed it from English to something else because they would just edit it and then stay silent, leaving the few of us who were active to discuss the fallout. Now it's protected these anonymous IPs have no voice, and since they know that under mediation their views will probably be rendered unjustified they won't get involved.

I haven't previously contributed to the mediation because White43 has said what needs to be said. I will add that if we were to be consistent with the majority of Wikipedia then we should be specific with regards to nationality within the UK - and English would be the correct label for Bale.

Also, see the articles below for examples of people who were born and often spent a significant part of their life in one country but are classed as a different nationality:

Mila Kunis, Bruce Willis, John McEnroe, Rudyard Kipling, Kiefer Sutherland, Joe Calzaghe, Shane MacGowan

There are scores more which I could add later when I remember them, but I don't think it's necessary.

My only worry is that once the dispute is settled and eventually the article is unprotected this issue will rear its head again, and those who didn't want to particpate here now will re-emerge. D33te (talk) 22:14, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Anything is possible, but in the event of that scenario, you can at least say that you have attempted to go through the dispute resolution process and the other parties were simply unwilling to participate. Trusilver  00:07, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I am going to conclude the mediation at this time. The only clear other party to the dispute is User:Prometheus, and he has specifically refused to participate in informal mediation. Considering the circumstances, I think that you have two different routes that you can take this. I would personally suggest that you open a WP:RFC request on this article. The reason for this is that it doesn't require the input of User:Prometheus to create a consensus. The other possibility is the next step up the ladder: Take this over to formal mediation. Either way, continuing with the dispute resolution process shows that you are showing good faith in attempting to resolve the dispute. Do you have any questions? Trusilver 03:48, 28 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your time - I'll probably open a RFC, but if after unprotection it all gets silly again - I'll probably opt for the formal mediation. White43 (talk) 09:48, 1 March 2009 (UTC)