Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2009-09-24/List of channels on Virgin TV

Where is the dispute?
The dispute is on List of channels on Virgin TV

Who is involved?

 * User:Andrewcrawford
 * User:Jasmeet_181
 * User:Pr3st0n

What is the dispute?
The dispute is about the channels CH4 HD and BBC HD on virgin being part of the medium package or only available to the xl package only, due to conflicting sources stating different things. But the offical virgin site states both. For more information on teh dispute please find it here.

What would you like to change about this?
To able to have a outside person opinion on the matters on the above talk page so that aa consesus can be drawn through third party so that all parties above can be statify there isa neutral and fair dession on the matter.

How do you think we can help?
As a third party and not being involved in the dispute your propesect on the matter will be vaulable and help to get a answer to the problems.

Mediator notes

 * User:Andrewcrawford accepted
 * User:Jasmeet_181 accepted
 * User:Pr3st0n accepted

Proposed format for mediation
There has been a fair amount of discussion on the talk page. I propose to take a day or so to digest your various points, which have been quite nicely structured. If I have any questions, I will try and group them together.

Once I feel that I have a reasonable understanding of the issues, the points raised and the sources provided, I will summarize my interpretation. I will then invite you to comment on my findings.

I will then try and differentiate the points on which you all agree, and any points outstanding which remain disputed, and propose a way forward to resolve them. -- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 16:11, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Locus of the dispute
The dispute concerns the availability of HD channels to subscribers via the four Virgin TV packages (M, M+, L, and XL). The channels are:
 * BBC HD
 * FX HD
 * MTVN HD
 * National Geographic HD
 * 4HD (Channel 4 HD)
 * ESPN HD
 * LIVING HD

The article lists channels available to subscribers on an incremental basis (M+ additionally receive all M channels, L additionally receive all M+ channels, XL additionally receive all M+ channels). Therefore a channel is listed according to the minimum level of subscription necessary to receive the channel.

HD channels are only available to subscribers with V+ capability, as mentioned in the lead paragraph.

ESPN HD channels are available to subscribers upon a supplementary monthly fee, currently not mentioned in the article.

What is agreed

 * 1) All HD channels are available to XL subscribers

What is questioned

 * 1) Whether HD channels are exclusively available to XL subscribers
 * 2) Whether BBC HD and Channel 4 HD are included in the M pack
 * 3) Whether M, M+ and L subscribers have access to HD channels
 * 4) What the supplementary monthly fee provides
 * Two statements concern access to the ESPN channels
 * One statement is about access to HD channels in general

Discussion
NB: I have updated to bullet points to numbers to clarify which point we are addressing

Minor delay
Apologies to all, I meant to review this case thoroughly Wednesday afternoon but have been delayed by matters in real life. I will be free Sunday 11 October late afternoon UTC and plan to reply by midnight UTC the same day. -- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 18:00, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

ESPN HD
ESPN HD is available as part of the XL package but customers on the lower M, M+ or L packages may subscribe to it for an additional fee. I believe that this is mentioned in the article. Specific pricing is in the ESPN (UK) article. - Jasmeet_181 (talk) 16:00, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * This is point 4.1. It seems therefore that point 4.2. was a misinterpretation of my reading and is not an issue. -- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 09:26, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

HD channels
The dispute regards only BBC HD and CH4HD the rest are accepted they are only exculsive to the XL package. The problem lies with virgin media press release and website, the press release is vague and makes it sound like BBC HD and CH4HD is exculsive only to ever package until enf of august then only part of XL package, but another page on virign media website states it as medium package and above with no time limits.-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 17:30, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * This is point 1. Effectively, as I understand it, a press release was issued indicating that certain channels will be available for free to XL subscribers. Others pages indicate that certain HD channels are available to other levels of subscription, providing that they have the V+ capacity. -- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 09:26, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

ESPN HD
ESPN HD is listed as a subscritpion channel iont eh table granted i dnt think the lead has been updated to refelect this, but i think it meantions it is freee to xl customers.-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 17:30, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Again point 1 and see comments above. -- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 09:26, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Virgin Media lost the plot
Virgin Media have well and truly confused things even further, and seem to have lost the plot of their own policies all together. For no reason they cancelled my subscriptions by error, and I made a telephone call to the customer services. I will briefly bullet-point what happened. Now with what I've pointed out above, it shows that even Virgin Media are unaware of what they are doing. One piece of information they did provide, that could be vital to this discussion is, that they told me they only update the policies on their website every 2 months, so what we view now may in fact be erroneous and out-dated. The customer advisor pointed out that in the small print it does state that Virgin Media have the rights to alter their packages and decisions at any given time without informing their customers about it. SO in conclusion, I feel that both Virgin Media, and ourselves could be wrong and right at the same time.
 * Virgin Media realised an error was made on their behalf, and rectified it by putting my services back on.
 * I informed them when I first joined, that I subscribed for L package, yet on the day of installation they put me on a M+ package.
 * Virgin Media advisor told me that, at the time of joining, the offer was £24 per month for the L package, however this offer changed on the day of my installation to being £24 for M+ package only, and due to the fact I signed up on a £24 deal, that they had to put me on the M+ package.
 * I told them that I phoned them on the same day after installation had been completed, and they supposedly upgraded to L package at no extra cost.
 * Virgin Media told me that they indeed did upgrade, but at an additional charge of £11, bringing my monthly fee to £35.
 * Virgin Media now have realised again that it was an error, and that they will give me XL package at no charge for 3 months.

I only have the standard V box, and not the V+HD box, however with what has happened over the last couple of days, and with this 3 month upgrade to XL package, I have noticed that I've now got all the HD channels too, whereas when I was on the L package I didn't have these. This must show that HD is only for XL customers, despite what their website informs otherwise. Pr3st0n (talk) 19:32, 5 October 2009 (UTC)


 * you can not get the hd channels on the v box at, and customer services rarely know anything otherwise the future event eopukld say sky hd coming this moon-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 20:57, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know how they have done it, but the V box I got has these HD channels highlighted in white (like it does to show the channels you are able to view) which is confusing as it isn't a HD box, just the bog standard one. And customer advisor must have some knowledge to be able to tell me about the change in package offer, and the fact that they "forgot" to tell me about it at the time.  Why don't you phone 150 via a Virgin Phone line, and ask them yourself.  They will answer your questions sounding very vague, and try to confuse the hell out of their customers at the same time.  Pr3st0n (talk) 22:43, 5 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I have, and i have had over 10 different answers for hte smae subject the fact is customer services have very little knowledge they just say anything to try keep a cusotmer happy well what they think will-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 00:55, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Supplementary monthly fee
I'm not sure which supplementary monthly fee is being referred to. M, M+ and L package customers need to pay a £5 a month fee for the HD capable V+ set-to-box, XL customers are not required to pay this fee. The standard supplied V set-top-box does not have a monthly fee on any package but it is not HD capable and does not have the PVR functions of the V+. The subscription fee for ESPN HD to M, M+ or L package customers also covers ESPN America and the standard definition version of ESPN. - Jasmeet_181 (talk) 16:00, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * This is point 4. I had understood that you all agreed on the V+ box requirement for HD channels, so this may need to be tweaked in point 4 so we are all on the same wavelength. -- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 09:26, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes it is agreed that a V+ is required for HD, but the fee for sub XL packages covers functions and not channels. It may also cover the higher cost of the box compared to the standard V, as all Virgin Media set-top-boxes are rented and not purchased, with free repairs or replacements. - Jasmeet_181 (talk) 16:15, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I only have the standard V box, and not the V+HD box, however with what has happened over the last couple of days, and with this 3 month upgrade to XL package, I have noticed that I've now got all the HD channels too, whereas when I was on the L package I didn't have these. This must show that HD is only for XL customers, despite what their website informs otherwise. Pr3st0n (talk) 19:35, 5 October 2009 (UTC)


 * That doesn't prove anything, it not verifiable and is you own original research, you don't even have a V+ box to check properly. - Jasmeet_181 (talk) 03:50, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Jasmeet, I'm merely participating with my input, as per request - please avoid attempts to discourage me from doing so. I have put forward what I have witnessed, and found, your remark above could do with toning down a little.  I'm abiding to What_Wikipedia_is_not as well as the guidance given as per Five_pillars, throughout this mediation discussion, I would expect that you consider taking the same approach.  Pr3st0n (talk) 05:47, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I have merely pointed out that that your observations are not suitable evidence and you do not have the correct equipment. We have gone through these accusations against me before Pr3st0n, there was nothing found to be wrong with my approach. If you believe there is file a complaint. - Jasmeet_181 (talk) 07:30, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The comment above to which you left a reply to, is a short version of a full comment which can be seen here. Now Andrewcrawford, replied to that comment in a polite and understand manner.  Perhaps it will help if you were to read the comment in full, and you might understand where I am coming from with the comment.  Pr3st0n (talk) 08:18, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I have read that in full and agree with Andrew's assessment on customer services. This does not change anything my views on the above. - Jasmeet_181 (talk) 08:28, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Supplementary monthly fee
There is no supplementry extra fee, the extra fee is for cusotmer not on XL package to get the EPSN HD and for the PVR functiosn of the v+ box, ther eis no fee for the HD channels, you can get the V+ for free if the PVR is disable, this is covered in the virgin media article and i think v+ article which is itnernal linked to.-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 17:30, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * By supplementary monthly fee I meant in 4.1. a supplementary fee for non XL customers to access ESPN. -- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 09:26, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Apogolise i misunderstood, but the table does state it is subcription chanenl to all packages apart from xl-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 13:20, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * As does the lead section. - Jasmeet_181 (talk) 16:15, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Access to HD channels for lower packages
What is more questioned is wether customer have access to them when virign own site says tow different things the press release is vague but the websit eis clear so it not easy to be sure either is right fromt he sources in the talk page. majority of sources do all agree though that all cusotmer have access to the freeview terristal hd channels-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 17:30, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * This is the same point you raised above in HD channels as far as I can see, and therefore see my reply there. -- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 09:28, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

excuslily
The problem with teh exculsive is that virign has worded there press release so that cusotmer ar emore likely to upgrade and get virign media mroe money from the higher package that has all hd channels for free, but the lower packages have them as well but the press releae is vague on this.-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 17:30, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * This is again the same point. Note that at this stage I would prefer not to get into debates into Virgin Media's presumed motivation about having four levels of access and the effect the press release had, but stick to the facts about what is or is not available, although see reply on Jasmeet's comment below.-- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 09:26, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I thought that there was an agreement over the press release and the confusion over the wording was solved and that the issue continued because of apparent advertisements in the national press, links to which were never provided. The only recent published Advertising Standards Authority adjudication against Virgin Media was on 26 August 2009 for a broadband advertisement. For what it's worth press releases are generally made to encourage journalists to develop articles on a subject rather than be directly read by the public. - Jasmeet_181 (talk) 03:58, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Right now, I am trying to establish common points of agreement, and identify those where mediation is required. Your comment is helpful in giving me some background, but I will probably move it once we start debating the topics we all agree there is a dispute. The ASA judgment I think we should deal with later, as it is a separate issue. -- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 09:26, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Although the wordign was cleared up the problem inital was to do with the wording and Pr3st0n saying the avert was misleading which it ocudl well be but that would be for ASA to fix but virign would be daft to not to let cusotmer in lower packages knwo they can get it some channels to as it be damaging to there own business-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 13:23, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Indeed, if there was an advert in the national press as Pr3st0n said and it was misleading, unclear or just incorrect a complaint will almost certainly have been made to the ASA either by a competitor or a member of the public. As of yet there is no such complaint and no link provided to the advert for the rest of us to view. Therefore the only source to possibly say that BBC HD and C4 HD are only in the XL pack is the press release. The only user who was at any time confused by the press release, said that he understood this explanation: . There were also 3 pages on the Virgin Media website that said BBC HD and C4 HD were in the basic M pack. - Jasmeet_181 (talk) 16:15, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * How does one provide a link to an advert that was in a newspaper? It is impossible to put an internet link to something that is paper based.  Pr3st0n (talk) 22:49, 5 October 2009 (UTC)


 * WP:CITE. - Jasmeet_181 (talk) 03:50, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Not sure if anyone has noticed in this chart? And this shows that Virgin Media have conflicting information on the HD issue.  Look at the main chart, it highlights BBC HD and CH4HD as available to everyone.  However, look at the bottom right-hand corner of the chart.  There is a "insert" box which read "Your HD Channels".  In that it shows ALL 7 HD channels as being part of XL only (as highlighted with the red dot key - the chart key is shown at the top of the page). Pr3st0n (talk) 06:18, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * It is an error, previously BBC HD wasn't in the box last month (it was called something like "Your New HD Channels") and some more of the channels were in the incorrect packages earlier this month. That channel guide and accompanying magazine is produced by a third party called Redwood and has often contained small errors. Channel 4 HD is still marked as in the M pack in that box and the press release says "4HD will be available to all of Virgin Media’s TV customers at no extra cost, alongside the BBC HD channel."  Since both BBC HD and Channel 4 HD are displayed as in the M pack in the main part of the list, I believe then that this is just another typo. - Jasmeet_181 (talk) 07:30, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I somehow cannot see the HD box in this chart being an error. You said yourself about the ASA thing above, if it was an error, then a complaint will almost certainly have been made to the ASA either by a competitor or a member of the public by now.  When Redwood group created that list, Virgin Media would have had to check all the information is correct before it gets published.  And seeing as it has been published, then what is in that box has to be true.  If they publish something falsified, then they would be breaking their own policies as a company.  Pr3st0n (talk) 07:54, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, you state that BBC HD wasn't in that box last month (September), but yet it now appears in October 2009 version. The chart is also dated "October 2009", and seeing as BBC HD now appears in there, then there will be a reason why Virgin Media have put it in.  Pr3st0n (talk) 07:56, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I explained that the box was previously called "Your New HD Channels". BBC HD has been available since 2006. BBC HD is listed in the main part of the list as in the M pack, just not in that box. It also listed as being in the M pack on multiple other parts of the website. I am unsure of what procedures for control or approval Virgin Media has over electric! since I do not work for either company and I do not care to speculate. This disagreement has been ongoing since August, there were no complaints of errors in the 2 previous editions. - Jasmeet_181 (talk) 08:17, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Right, I suggest we pause it there for now, and allow Alex to review what I've had to say, before we go any further. Pr3st0n (talk) 08:58, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Agreed. - Jasmeet_181 (talk) 09:16, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

BBC HD
Is BBC HD a pay service? ''No, BBC programmes are funded by your licence fee. You do not have to pay extra to watch them in high definition, even if you are watching them on a subscription service. You will need a suitable digital box from your provider or retailer, and it is possible that some service providers will only offer this if you take a subscription service.'' It is clear then that BBC HD (and all other UK BBC channels) cannot be charged for, equipment used to view it such as the V+ may be at the service providers discretion. - Jasmeet_181 (talk) 03:58, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * This is point 2. -- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 09:26, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

I've just read the full FAQs from that BBC link. And they have contradicted themselves in it. So in one breath they say BBC HD is free - yet to get it though you need to either (1) Buy a Freeview box and HD Ready TV; or (2) buy a HD Ready TV, but still need to subscribe to either Sky or Cable networks. So in a way, you are still paying a subscription fee. Pr3st0n (talk) 23:00, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Is BBC HD a pay service? No, BBC programmes are funded by your licence fee. You do not have to pay extra to watch them in high definition, even if you are watching them on a subscription service. You will need a suitable digital box from your provider or retailer, and it is possible that some service providers will only offer this if you take a subscription service.
 * I have an 'HD Ready' television. Does that mean I will automatically receive HD services when they start? No. 'HD Ready' just means that the screen has sufficient resolution to display high definition pictures. You will still need the right kind of receiver, which will be included in the digital box from your HD service provider, whether satellite or cable.


 * HD ready refers to the abilities of television receivers to display high-definition pictures, how would you watch HD channels without a HDTV? It does not refer to the input source that you use to receive channels. Both Virgin Media and Sky are pay-TV services, you must have a subscription to have them. BBC HD is free to air on satellite and available on Freesat, FTA satellite receivers or through Sky+HD boxes without a valid subscription card. Since Virgin Media's cable network is privately owned, they have stipulated that you may not use any equipment other than that which is supplied from them. Virgin Media only supply their boxes for rental, so you cannot have one without subscription and BBC HD is available from the minimum package which is available for free under certain conditions, Virgin will charge those minimum package subscribers for the V+ though, this is completely in line with what the BBC have said. - Jasmeet_181 (talk) 03:50, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Please avoid patronising me. I am well aware that you need a HD ready TV to be able to view HD channels.  I already pointed that out.  I was merely pointing the fact that the FAQ on BBC website shows a small amount of contradiction.  Pr3st0n (talk) 06:00, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Except that it doesn't. It says satellite, not Sky. You do not pay a subscription to receive free to air satellite television. - Jasmeet_181 (talk) 07:30, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * So again you go to extreme to highlight when I word something wrong - why do you do that? It can be highly irritating.  OK so I worded it as Sky and not satellite - but the main context is obvious as to what I was trying to say in the first place.  I'm taking some time-out on this; as you clearly are looking to pick out things and reply in your unique little way, knowing that it is going to piss me off a little.  If this continues I will avoid contact, and will inform another user of what comments I would like to add, and get them to add them on my behalf.  Pr3st0n (talk) 08:50, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Because by saying Sky and Virgin Media it may appear as though the the channel is only available on pay-tv platforms to those not familiar with the various services in UK and could be thought of as a subscription service. The moderator's user page states that they currently live in Morocco so it may be that he is unfamiliar with subject. I have no idea what annoys you. Through satellite BBC HD is available FTA through any HD receiver, including those from Freesat and Sky. From 2 December 2009 BBC HD will also be available FTA on terrestrial television. - Jasmeet_181 (talk) 09:16, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * As stated above in another thread, I suggest we pause it all for now, and allow Alex to review what I've had to say, before we go any further. And as you rightfully pointed out, you have no idea what annoys me, so common sense would state that try to avoid such behaviour just in case; and keep things civil to the best ability.  Pr3st0n (talk) 09:33, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I am not targeting you and nothing that I have said is uncivil in my opinion. This all too familiar. Don't over analysis what I say, assume good faith and realise that similar comments could be applied to you. That is all I will say on the matter. - Jasmeet_181 (talk) 09:44, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

HD channels
In a Virgin Media press release dated 29 July 2009 states that 4HD and BBC HD will be available to ALL Virgin Media customers (M, M+, L, and XL tiers), and 6 other HD channels will only be available on XL tier. However, 2 months later in a new press release about the launch of Living HD, dated 25 September 2009, they state that Living HD is only available on the XL tier of their packages, along with all of the other 8 HD channels on the same tier package. This goes to show that in the space of 2 months, Virgin Media have changed their policy on 4HD and BBC HD being available to all. Pr3st0n (talk) 23:47, 5 October 2009 (UTC)


 * It does not say 8 channels, there are 7. 25 September 2009 only mentions Living HD with regards to packs, it just says that VM offers the others. No, 29 July 2009 says that BBC HD and C4 HD are available to all customers, while the full range is available to XL customers. - Jasmeet_181 (talk) 03:50, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * OK so I miscounted. There's that many in the article, that I counted 1 extra than there should be - no need to make a big issue out of that.  We have already established the fact that Virgin Media have got some conflicting information - it is this that we are trying to resolve now.  Please stick to the main issue at hand, and avoid straying off the rails.  Thank you! Pr3st0n (talk) 05:40, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I am simply responding to your arguments on the issue with explanations or corrections, that completely on topic. I dont think that it has been established that there is conflicting information. - Jasmeet_181 (talk) 07:30, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Andrew noticed there is conflicting information, he has spoken of this not only on the article talk page, but also above in many of the threads. So conflicting information therefore has been established.  Its that conflict that has brought us to here in the first place.  Pr3st0n (talk) 08:45, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * At the start of the mediation I had only seen the press release announcing Channel 4 HD which was cleared up before and now the October electric! guide which states two different things on BBC HD. It would be helpful if you could list any others. - Jasmeet_181 (talk) 09:16, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * So you're now agreeing that the October guide does show BBC HD as a XL package? It is this that we need to establish fact from fiction.  Although some evidence shows BBC HD is for all users, that guide does clearly point out both conflicting sides, with the main list having BBC HD as a M package, yet the smaller box having it as a XL one.  Like I mentioned previous above, I suggest we pause it there for now, and allow Alex to review what I've had to say, and view the new October guide thing for himself, before we go any further. Pr3st0n (talk) 09:33, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree that it shows the October electric! guide says that BBC HD is in the XL pack in one part of the page but in the M pack in another. Since all the other sources that I have seen also say that it is in the M pack, I'm inclined to believe that the former is a mistake. This is why I have asked you to list any others that suggest that it is in the XL pack only/not in the M pack. - Jasmeet_181 (talk) 09:44, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * My patience is wearing thin, lack of sleep I think. But nevertheless, we can not assume that the former could be an error, as there is no source to say that a typo error has happened in that guide.  Both Andrew and Alex noticed there is conflicting information and information that is also vague on VM websites and press releases which can be viewed here.  This clarifies that we are still none the wiser to separate the fact from the fiction, and to establish which piece of info is right and which is wrong.  I still suggest we pause this here, and wait for Alex to respond.  Pr3st0n (talk) 09:52, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Well then BBC HD is listed in two different packs in the October electric! guide. Clearly one part must be an error. At one point you agreed that you had misunderstood the press release whether it is vague or not. All other first party sites cited so far point to it and C4 HD being in the M pack. So I don't think I am being unreasonable in requesting that you (or anyone else) cite any other sources which support the idea that BBC HD and/or C4 HD are not in the M pack so that I may view them. - Jasmeet_181 (talk) 12:17, 7 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't wish to sound pedantic here, but which part of "pause this here, and wait for Alex to respond" didn't you understand? Alexandr also stated here that he will look into what I have to say on this matter, and get back to us in 2 days.  So please Jasmeet, allow this procedure to take its course via the official channels, and avoid any unnecessary bickering.  Pr3st0n (talk) 13:48, 7 October 2009 (UTC)


 * As long as jasmeet is being civil which alex could judge on then he can comment on your comments, it give alex more to review but might allow alex to come to be idea of the problem. Jasmeet is only askign for a source to where ti state it as XL onyl so they can review as with alex so the problem can be seen how bad it is and possible a a complaint can go to ASA about it if it is the case. Oh by the way if it is decided it is M only you might want to take a complaint to ASA about the newspaper advert which i know you can state here because there no way to od it-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 16:31, 7 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I feel like putting a complaint to the broadcasting commission. I contacted Virgin Media again, after you mentioned that I shouldn't be getting HD channels if I only have the standard V box.  It seems customers who signed up between March and July 2009, were under some "trail" thing from Virgin Media, were they wanted to test some new version of boxes to see if HD would be compatible on normal boxes, and as well as the V+ (recordable hard drive) boxes.  Now as we have already figured out, VM advisers like to fob their customers off with all sorts of jargon and bullshit (I apologise for swearing there), but it could explain as to why I seem to be able to get HD without the V+ recordable box.  Strange thing is, I cannot find anything on their website which states they were doing these trails during that period.  And if what they said is true, and the trails passed, will VM be issuing customers who don't yet have these new boxes, with these newer versions?  Pr3st0n (talk) 02:37, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Unfortnalyl virign media like nay company are allowed to conduct trials to test new things out to see if it will improve or make things worst for cusotmer ther eunder no obligation by there term and condiotns to advise customer but it in there best interests to do so. As for CS it a know fact all companies do it because the CS people get commission a lot of the time so they lie through there teeth to get a sale, even sky do it, the most recent claim from theirs is there goign ot offer cusotmer FTTH which i very much doubt because there use bt network and bt are onyl goign ot offer VDSL with FTTC-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 11:04, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


 * HD would not be compatible with standard V boxes due to lack of HD output connections and processing power in the decoders, so you have been fobbed off again. If you were to contact customer services in more public locations (newsgroups, forums or Twitter) they may be more truthful. Newspapers can be cited but I'm not sure how you would check them, Virgin Media's advertising is handled in house by ids and the ads usually also appear online or in their other outlets. - Jasmeet_181 (talk) 18:12, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


 * So we're none the wiser here are we? VM could be telling the truth, IF they are conducting trials.  Yet, like Jasmeet said, the standard V box wouldn't have enough processing power to handle HD.  Yet again, if they have (like they informed me that they have) done these trials to test a new model of V box that would have enough processing power to cope with such HD power, then it explains quite a lot, and would also be able to draw a close to this mediation process.  Do we take their word for it, and assume that an upgraded version of the standard V box is being tested?  Pr3st0n (talk) 17:53, 9 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. At the moment there is no published information on a new V box, on the Samsung V+ there was a leaked document and multiple statements from spokesmen some of which are still on available on the V+ article. Nothing has currently been published with regards to a new V box and there are currently no new data channels for a new box (visible through the engineer menu on certain boxes). The potential availability of a HD capable V box is not under question as a part of this mediation process. - Jasmeet_181 (talk) 21:03, 9 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Jasmeet, I think you might have read my comment a little wrong, and misunderstanding what I was actually saying.. I wasn't saying we have to include the possibility of a new version of V box into the article, I am fully aware that we need to make sure the facts are true first.  If you read it again, you will see that I was questioning whether VM are telling truth or not.  While the standard V box that we know of doesn't allow HD channels, due to its powerless capability.  There was still this confusion as to why I was getting them.  That's why I explained, that I spoke to VM, and informed on here that they spoke of some "trials".  To which you state that the V box isn't capable of HD power (and I pretty much agreed with you on that too).  Yet Andrew stated that VM could do trials and not inform their customers about it (which would shed some light as to why I'm getting HD channels).  If (and its a big IF), VM are carrying out trials on a new high-tech V box that can cope with the HD stuff, then it would explain why I am getting them.  And seeing as VM tell me I "supposedly" have one of these new boxes, would explain why I get HD.  It would also explain the main factor behind this mediation taking place.  Don't forget, why this process has taken place, its because I'm getting HD channels, and yet you  from the beginning stated that it is impossible.  But putting all those factors above into account, would explain everything in a nutshell.  Pr3st0n (talk) 21:24, 9 October 2009 (UTC)


 * If true, we would have to include that at some point since the lead section says "High-definition channels are only available to customers with a V+ set-top box." This mediation case started because of claims that advertisements and various other sources stating conflicting things (Mediation Cabal/Cases/2009-09-24/List of channels on Virgin TV). Your own observations would likely fall under original research. I am not alone in telling that it is not possible to get HD boxes from a standard V box. If you do have some kind of trial box (stating the make and model would be useful), then you probably would be able to view the HD channels even if you do not have a HDTV connected as the V+ boxes are capable of downscaling to SD and the trial box would also need to have a HDMI socket. - Jasmeet_181 (talk) 22:57, 9 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't have a HD ready TV :-(. But the V box I got does have a HDMI socket.  The make/model name situated underneath the box itself reads "Seimens Atlantis 2".  Not sure if that helps? Pr3st0n (talk) 23:04, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

My understanding of the problems
As I read it, there is actually agreement in this case, but there are a couple of factors which are muddying the waters.
 * 1) It is agreed that all HD channels are available free of charge to XL subscribers
 * 2) It is agreed that ESPN is available free to XL subscribers per point 1. above and also to M, M+ and L subscribers upon payment of an additional monthly subscription fee
 * 3) Apart from BBC HD and C4 HD, none of the other channels have been mentioned, so I take it as a given that there is no dispute here
 * 4) There no longer seems to be any dispute regarding C4 HD

Now for the trickier part. Whilst I don't actually see conflicting information in the sources, I do see that the way things are mentioned, sometimes omitting technical information (such as needing a HD-enabled box) can lead to confusion.


 * 1) As things stand, we only have reliable sources regarding the current V and V+ boxes
 * 2) These sources state that in order to receive HD channels via Virgin Media, one must have a V+ box
 * 3) BBC HD is provided free by the BBC, which states that providers may require an additional charge

It seems to me, therefore, that the main point remaining is around the availability BBC HD. From reading the sources, in particular this one, I am led to understand that BBC HD is available to all subscribers; however to receive it via Virgin Media, one must be equipped with HD-enabled equipment, by which I understand a V+ box.

As was noted above in discussions, I do indeed live in Morocco. That means that I am even more dependent upon verifiable information from the reliable sources presented.

Whilst this is not a conclusion to mediation, as I invite comments upon my update, I will close by saying that there is much confusion and cross-talking between the parties involved in the case, some of which brought about by the ambiguity in some of the sources presented, and that I feel that you are actually closer to agreeing on the same points as some of you may believe.

If I am not clear, or have misinterpreted anything, please let me know and I will address any points as swiftly as possible. -- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 18:53, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

General
I would say in prinicple it is agreed that both CH4 HD and BBC HD are available to all packages but because the sources and some adverts are misleading then it hard to be sure that it is. (On a personal note i have access to the medium package with a v+ box and only bbc and ch4 dh is available but this is original research so not a verifable source)

As for needing a v+ it is agreed that it is required but due to a bad cusotemr services and a new box which could be trialed for v box user then there seems to eb ambiogious over this-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 19:33, 11 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with what Andrew has stated above. Some sources and adverts do seem to be misleading, like which that list of channels, which on one part shows BBC HD and CH4HD as being free, whilst in the corner of the same list it shows them as being part of the XL package, which doesn't help solve this situation (unless one of the big Virgin Media bosses decides to inform us otherwise - and I highly doubt that will happen any time soon).  In comment to the trials and bad customer service, again, I agree with you Andrew.  It is likely that trials have been taken by Virgin Media, as you rightfully pointed out previously, they can conduct such trials without informing their customer that this is happening.  I suppose that is how they would be able to conduct a fair trial with good/bad results.  So in summary, I feel that 2 of us have understood trials could be taking place, which may be the factor behind all of this confusion in the first place.  Pr3st0n (talk) 00:41, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I think jasmeet is aware there is possiblilty of trials but like myself knows that these trials are that trials and have no bearing on the main article as it might come ot nothing and it not verifable as a trailist of soemthing for virgin we can not give otu details so it hard to prove it exists so it best to ingore it-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 18:31, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I have no problems with Alexandr's understanding of the problems. - Jasmeet_181 (talk) 08:45, 22 October 2009 (UTC)


 * With one small exception to 3. BBC HD is provided free by the BBC, which states that providers may require an additional charge. You do not have to pay extra to watch them in high definition, even if you are watching them on a subscription service. You will need a suitable digital box from your provider or retailer, and it is possible that some service providers will only offer this if you take a subscription service. My interpretation of that is there is no charge for BBC HD even from pay-tv service providers such as Virgin Media. Though service providers may only choose to supply a HD set top box once you take a subscription. This is the case with Virgin Media as they do not offer a connection or equipment without a subscription. The M pack is technically free. - Jasmeet_181 (talk) 09:24, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with Jasmeet's interpretation. From what I have read, BBC is free, with the only requirement that the V+ box be used. So yes, it is technically free. -- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 08:21, 23 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Can we have a summary on what if any changes will be applied and i will give my final summary :)-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 12:05, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I could, but given that there are only the two of you left, and you seem to agree with each other, would one of you two like to write what changes need to be made (you both know the ins and outs of the article more than me; I'm likely to miss something) and have the other agree? I feel we have reached a point where normal discussion on the article has been achieved, without the need for third party intervention. The point of mediation was to get discussion back to a collaborative and collegial atmostphere, which I sense even over here on a different continent :). Regards -- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 08:21, 23 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't think that any changes are necessary, everything agreed on seems to be included already. - Jasmeet_181 (talk) 10:37, 24 October 2009 (UTC)


 * That would seem fine to me-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 12:04, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Case closed
I would like to thank the parties concerned for achieving closure in a collaborative and collegiate manner. -- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 12:55, 24 October 2009 (UTC)