Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2009-10-27/Nazarene

Request details
I'm requesting intervention to end an edit war, by ending obstinate redirects which point a content page to a disambiguation page, and vice-versa. This involves various (some redundant) "Nazarene" pages listed below. The whole scheme (apparently deliberate) ultimately directs the reader to a conservative and narrow discussion on a page called Nazarene (title). That page omits minor but well-attested meanings of "Nazarene" (Gnostic and Mandean) which are important, but which have nothing to do with Jesus of Nazareth.

Where is the dispute?
(Depending on when you log on, please be alert for redirects which do not return the following pages!)

Nazarene (disambiguation) Nazarene Nazarene (word) Nazarene (title)

Who is involved?

 * Renejs
 * Bkonrad
 * Kauffner

What is the dispute?
PROBLEM: Two Wiki editors, Bkonrad and Kauffner, are persistently using multiple redirects in a complex scheme among related pages. All these redirects are unecessary, confusing, and undermine the discussion. Specifically, the Nazarene (disambiguation) page redirects to a content page Nazarene, and vice-versa. Finally, the discussion is redirected to a conservative (narrow) treatment at Nazarene (title). I am continually undoing these redirects in order to simply put the disambiguation page where it belongs and the content page where it belongs at Nazarene. No redirects are necessary.

On Talk:Nazarene it's stated that there is no need for a Nazarene (disambiguation) page. I don't insist on a separate disambiguation page. The crux of the matter for me is that the content be found where the reader expects: at Nazarene. Only a page with that title allows a discussion of all the relevant issues. I strongly object to an automatic redirect to Nazarene (title). That effectively limits discussion to Jesus of Nazareth.

Other relevant pages are the talk pages of the various users (above). Bkonrad now insists that "moving by copying and pasting is unacceptable". I consider that insulting, as if he can get us into a muddle with impunity (via redirects), but then he objects when someone tries to get out of the muddle by copying and pasting.

Bkonrad and myself are now reverting each other on a daily basis. I'm an expert in this subject matter (with a published book in the field) and affirm that his solution prevents a fair and NPOV discussion of the important term "Nazarene." In essence, I think he's trying to hijack the discussion.

What would you like to change about this?
(1) Ensure that the discussion of "Nazarene" stay where it belongs, on the page called Nazarene. (2) Ensure that the Nazarene (disambiguation) remain a disambiguation page or (if disambiguation is determined to be unnecessary), that it be duly incorporated in the main page Nazarene (e.g., via "See also").

How do you think we can help?
(1) Prevent users from redirecting away from Nazarene. (2) Recommend/ensure that the discussion of "Nazarene" stay on the page called Nazarene. (3) Recommend/ensure that either the Nazarene (disambiguation) page stay there (no redirect), or (if disambiguation is determined to be unnecessary) that it be incorporated in the main page, Nazarene (e.g., "See also"). (4) End the edit war that's going on with these pages. (Thanks, WIki!Renejs (talk) 19:50, 27 October 2009 (UTC))

Mediator notes
This appears to be outside the scope of the MedCab because it relates to complaints against particular users. The issue on redirects and moves is another venue that should be tried first. Thus, I am closing the case. --Reubzz (talk) 21:24, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Discussion
All I have to say is that the edit history of these articles is a disaster, largely because of copy-and-paste moves made largely by Renejs. And it is even worse than I had originally thought. The edit history of several pages, Nazarene (history), Nazarene (title) (history), Nazarene (word) (history), and Nazarene (disambiguation) (history) are currently a hopelessly tangled mess. It appears that Nazarene (title) has the oldest content, dating from 03:45, 5 August 2006 when moved Nazarene to Nazarene (heresy) with the summary : Moving disambig info at top to its own pg) -- the next edit after the move was to change Nazarene into a disambiguation page.  Nazarene (heresy) was subequently moved on 07:08, 5 August 2006 by  to its current location at Nazarene (sect).

On 23:27, 13 September 2006  moved Nazarene to Nazarene (disambiguation). Viewable in the deleted edits of Nazarene, Haldrik also change Nazarene to redirect to Nazarene (sect). On 10:23, 30 October 2006 changed Nazarene to redirect to Nazarene (disambiguation).

On 07:14, 22 November 2006 moved Nazarene (disambiguation) to Nazarene, after deleting the redirect back to Nazarene (disambiguation) which was then at Nazarene.

Things were relatively quiet so far as page moves were concerned until this edit on 02:19, 25 June 2009 by Renejs placed a large amount of non-disambiguation content onto the disambiguation page.

On 18:54, 15 July 2009 moved Nazarene to Nazarene (word) along with all of the earlier edit history of the disambiguation page. On the same day, Inquietudeofcharacter also changed Nazarene to redirect to Nazarene (disambiguation).

On 13:52, 3 August 2009 {user|R'n'B}} deleted the redirect at Nazarene and moved Nazarene (disambiguation) to Nazarene.

On 11:23, 21 September 2009 moved Nazarene (word) to Nazarene (title) -- which for those trying to keep track of this -- had most of the earlier edit history of the diambiguation page -- at some point, I can't quite determine when, the disambiguation page was recreated and the edit history is forked.

On 04:16, 25 September 2009 moved the disambiguation page at Nazarene to Nazarene (disambiguation) over the redirect and on the same day changed Nazarene to be a redirect to Nazarene (sect).

On 22:21, 28 September 2009 IP user 82.6.115.62 changed Nazarene to redirect to Nazarene (disambiguation). Then on 29 September 2009 JHunterJ deleted the redirect at "Nazarene" and moved Nazarene (disambiguation) back to Nazarene -- although this is only a partial edit history of the disambiguation page.

Then begining on 26 OCT 2009, Renejs edited the disambiguation page at Nazarene to change it into an article and also copied and pasted the disambiguation content to Nazarene (disambiguation) -- which changes I've been reverting. Somewhat incindentally, Renejs also edited Nazarene (word), which was a redirect to Nazarene (sect) and duplicated much of the content from other articles.

All I would like is that the edit histories could be merged more meaningfully reflect the actual history of the disambiguation vs. articles. And second for Renejs to stop trying to move pages by copying and pasting, and finally that the process at WP:Requested moves be followed to determine what article should have which title.

Sincerely, older ≠ wiser 22:56, 27 October 2009 (UTC)