Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2009-12-14/Merging of fighting video game characters

Where is the dispute?

 * List of characters in the Street Fighter series
 * List of characters in the Mortal Kombat series
 * List of characters in the Fatal Fury series
 * List of characters in the Art of Fighting series
 * List of characters in the Tekken series
 * List of characters in The King of Fighters series

Who is involved?

 * User:David Pro
 * User:Kung Fu Man
 * User:Tintor2
 * User:King Gemini
 * User:Subzerosmokerain

What is the dispute?
There are several fighting game characters that originally had their own articles, and later they were merged. I think that several of them have been merged because some haven't notability, and fail verifiability.

What would you like to change about this?
I think that some of these characters should have their articles restored, and they should pass notability and verifiability.

How do you think we can help?
I suggest that video game characters such as Sagat, Sakura Kasugano, Jax, Ermac and Andy Bogard should have their own articles instead of being merged to their respective video game character list.

Mediator notes
Yes, chances are good that they were merged because they couldn't demonstrate notability or verifiability. If that is the case, then that is the right thing to do. Wikipedia cannot have articles for which sources do not exist, irregardless of what someone thinks is important to have a separate article on. Incidentally, this discussion might be better suited to WP:VG. The Wordsmith Communicate 18:42, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Discussion
To begin, we should decide whether or not all characters from the first installments of the fighting games merit an article. Ex: Sagat, Paul Phoenix, Andy Bogard, etc. Notability for each would probably not be difficult, however there are more than 50 characters that first appeared collectively in all the fighting games mentioned. I believe if they were first then that should amke them important enough to receive their own article. Sincerely Subzerosmokerain (talk) 16:40, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I remember searching reception for Andy Bogard some time ago, but I only could find 2 little sentences.Tintor2 (talk) 18:05, 14 December 2009 (UTC)


 * How is that appearing in the first game gives them notability? Instead of unmerging 50 articles with various issues, the best would be working in each article in a sandbox and then unmerge. That's at least what I did with the Fatal Fury characters. If it is only the ones mentioned above, then unmerging would not be bad. However, something has to be done to give them notability.Tintor2 (talk) 14:00, 16 December 2009 (UTC)


 * My reasoning for unmerging the first characters is not because they were first. It simply is that notability would be easier to find for them since they have been around longer than other characters. Granted that's not the case with characters like Eddy Gordo vs. Paul Phoenix, simply because Eddy Gordo has become infamous for being a button masher character.
 * My proposal is this, Revert only the characters who appeared in the first games of the series, place the "notability needed" and "reference needed" templates at the top of each page. After which, we simply cut away what statements have issues and leave the statements that do not have issues and the statements we do know references exist for, such as character endings and biographies. Sincerely Subzerosmokerain (talk) 19:32, 19 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Still the articles would need to pass notability and an article cannot stay just because it passes verifiability.Tintor2 (talk) 21:21, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Interesting issue. I'll offer some impartial input: While many of these characters are well known among gamers and gained some semblence of recognition in popular culture, they hardly attained a level of notability sufficient for exclusive articles. It's necessary for fighting games to offer an array of characters to choose from and while some of them become more popular than others among gamers (for aesthetic reasons or mechanics that make them favorable in competition), they have limited relevance or influence outside of their licensed games. If one of them played a significant role in a blockbuster movie or was the subject of a notable book, it might warrant exclusivity. But I don't think that's the case for most of them (certainly not any of those mentioned here). --K10wnsta (talk) 22:06, 20 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I found that characters such as Andy Bogard, Sagat, Jax, Sakura Kasugano and Paul Phoenix have been very significant in their respective video games, and I think that they should have their articles back. David Pro (talk) 12:00, 21 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Like I said, Jax and Andy may be significant to the games, but I never found reception for them. The fact that they are important to the game's plot does not make them pass notability.Tintor2 (talk) 23:00, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

--K10wnsta (talk) 05:18, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
 * David, I agree that some of those characters were significant in their respective games and I totally understand your desire to enshrine them in their own exclusive articles. They were very significant to me too.  In fact, Jax was the first toon I played when MKII hit arcades (Hold LP, F, F, F, release anyone?) and has remained my favorite ever since.  However, their significance beyond those franchises is extremely limited.  They barely attain the first attribute for fictional notability.
 * A couple questions I asked myself when pondering this in internal dialogue:
 * Given my almost religious use of Jax when I played the MK games, would I consider him as having some lasting influence on who I am today? Not in the same way other (notable) fictional characters have.
 * Might a future author, filmmaker, musician, or notable creative mind cite one of these characters as being a major influence in their work in the same way Holden Caulfield or Darth Vader might? It's tough to picture that happening.
 * While the game franchises themselves may influence future game developers, I can't imagine the characters specific doing much to inspire movies or books or, for that matter, even fan fiction. Their respective games may have been pioneering but the characters themselves just weren't as pervasive as, say, Pac-Man or Donkey Kong.
 * All that being said, however, if someone were to develop a really sharp looking template for articles on these characters that included nice graphical listings of their key combos in the various games and well-written, concise backstories as they existed in the franchise, it might compel me to revisit my opinion on the matter. Because at the end of the day, they are part of the  'sum of all human knowledge'  and it's hard to disregard professional, encyclopedic-looking articles, no matter how trivial their subject.