Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2010-02-08/French phonology

Where is the dispute?

 * The vowel sounds a as in cat, i as in pin, and u as in cup in French phonology.

Who is involved?
francofun12, CapnPrep, Tropylium.

What is the dispute?
The article is in violation of the Wikipedia principle of neutrality as its editors, who do not  know French, believe French vowel pronunciation should be phonetically transcribed according to the recently formed, biased, dishonest, and incoherent convention which is not meant to reflect the actual pronunciation. No reason has ever been given for it but I suspect it is so that it can be in accordance with Spanish and Italian and to accomodate the American accent or because they are not cardinal vowels. But it is probably primarily because the sounds in question are considered English by French linguists so are ignored. It might be an especially egregious form of prescriptivism. It is also political "correctness." It misleads and confuses non-Francophones. In the Larousse-Chambers Français-Anglais English-French Dictionnaire (2003), under Notes on Phonetic Transcription, page xvii, it says, "We have followed the modern tendency not to distiguish between the 'a' in pâte and the 'a' in patte. Both are represented in the text by (a)." The former a is like in father and the latter like in cat (low front vowel). But the i as in pin (high front vowel)is also excluded as is the o as in cup (mid central). The omission of a as in cat is also done for Portuguese.

Without the recognition of the æ (a as in cat), one cannot distiguish, in phonetic transcription, between the a in la (æ)(definite article)  and in là (a)(adverb of place) nor between the a in ça (æ) in front of a word beginning with a consonant and ça (a)(mid low vowel) in front of a word beginning with a vowel.

The practice is bizarre and contemptuous towards French as it grossly mispresents it. I contacted the U. of Picardie asking why it is done but received only a cordial acknowledgement and no answer to the question from 1 of them and no reply at all from the other 2. I sent complaints to Larousse and there was no reply. I also asked Anne-Marie Brousseau at U of T's French Dept. and she seemed unaware of such a practice and wanted examples. After I gave them she did not reply. I also asked Claire Lefebvre, a linguist at UQAM but received no reply. The latter 2 are with the CJL, which is the official organ of the CLA of which I am a member.

References for the correct pronunciation are the U. de Picardie website which gives audio examples of the actual pronunciation and at the same time gives the incorrect phonetic transcription so they contradict each other; AskOxford; The Dictionnaire Larousse Français-Anglais Anglais-Français by Marguerite-Marie Dubois et al (Librairie Larousse, 1955; Washington Square Press ed. 1970. There are many other audio examples too numerous to mention.

Also, the issue affects, relates to, and implicates other articles: Quebec French phonology, French language, and File: French vowel chart svg and also articles where the phonetic transcription of French names is given.

What would you like to change about this?
I would like the phonetic transcription to be consistently accurate or that a disclaimer be made saying it is according to current convention which is not meant to reflect the actual pronunciation. Also, 1 of the editors whose name cannot be typed out here is insulting and antagonistic.

How do you think we can help?
Check the references.

--francofun12 20:26, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Mediator notes
I'd like to take this case and will have a look at the references soon. I just need to check with you that the case is still valid and needs mediation. Cloudbound (talk) 22:07, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I have reopened this case at the request of francofun. I'm unable to take the case at present so would welcome someone else taking it on and helping to come to a satisfactory outcome for all parties. Cloudbound (talk) 15:46, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Discussion
Can this be closed now? PhilKnight (talk) 22:05, 10 July 2010 (UTC)