Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2011-01-10/John Rocha

Where is the dispute?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:John_Rocha#Nationality

Who is involved?
Just a list of the users involved. For example:


 * NorthernCounties
 * Qwerta369

What is the dispute?
Argument against "British-born, Irish" In a nutshell: I believe John Rocha to be a British national (probably either a British Citizen or a British National (Overseas)). NorthernCounties believes John Rocha to be an Irish citizen.

Rocha was born in Hong Kong at a time when it was a British possession. This means that Rocha would have been entitled, at any time before 1997, to hold at least one form of British nationality. If Rocha opted to apply for a British National (Overseas) passport (again, before 1997), this would be the form of British nationality he holds today unless he has since naturalised as a British citizen. We know that Rocha holds a British passport (and therefore holds some form of British nationality), as per the interview with Rocha, detailed on this Independent article - "[Rocha] clings to his British passport on his endless travels, despite the scorn of his (Irish-passport-bearing) children and his wife Odette.". Additionally, Rocha was named "British Designer of the Year" in 1993 at the British Fashion Awards.

User NorthernCounties feels that Rocha is an Irish citizen because he married an Irish citizen. However, post nuptial citizenship is not a feature of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Acts 1956 to 2004. User NorthernCounties attempts to quantify his claim by providing two refs. The first is www.johnrocha.ie. The second is this webpage.

Argument for "British-born, Irish Firstly, I would like to point out that I have found 5 different references supporting that he can be referred to as Irish. These can be found after the statement on John Rocha.

Qwerta argues that none of these arguments are valid, and the fact that he won British Designer of the Year 1993 over rights that he's Irish. May I point out however that this was now 18 years ago, and further to this, the contested statement still acknowledges his "Britishness". As well as this British award, he was awarded a special award at the Ernst and Young Irish Entrepreneur of the Year Awards in 2008 which would support the Irish statement further.

Next, he cites a Independent argument from 2001, ten years ago. Since then we have no further solid proof. I have provided a reference from The Guardian, circa 2008 here which refers to him as Irish. The Guardian being just as reputable as The Independent.

Really, I'm at odds to see what is truly wrong with stating "British-born, Irish" as it is backed up with valid sources, and definitely supports NPOV. As well as this, no other editor has mentioned or contested this edit so I can only assume that over all it has some level of support.

Mediator notes
I am willing to mediate in this case, if both parties are willing to accept me as a mediator.  The Mi ke •Wassup doc? 19:09, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, thank you. Qwerta369 (talk) 12:03, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'm happy as well, after only realising this case was open. --NorthernCounties (talk) 20:08, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Please watchlist this page, in case you haven't already done so.  The Mi ke •Wassup doc? 13:43, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Discussion
Okay, thank you. Now, I must tell you that this is the first case I am mediating in, so I request both of you to be patient with me, and with each other. If, at any time, I feel I cannot take this any further, I will withdraw from the discussion.


 * I have read your discussion on the talk page here. I think we all should agree that John Rocha lives in Ireland. In all the sources, I could find mention of him being an Irish designer. However, I see absolutely no mention of him holding an Irish or a British passport. Can either of you provide sources which say that John Rocha is a British or an Irish citizen?  The Mi ke •Wassup doc? 13:37, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: Even if you have provided sources earlier, please provide them here once again so that it'll be easier for all of us.  The Mi ke •Wassup doc? 13:39, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi MikeLynch. This source says: "He's a charmer, this plump and comfortable exile who clings to his British passport on his endless travels, despite the scorn of his (Irish-passport-bearing) children and his wife Odette." Since Rocha has a British passport, he must hold some form of British nationality.  I have been unable to provide a source which says that Rocha is a British citizen.  It may be that he is not a British citizen, but is a British National (Overseas).  This is a form of British nationality associated with qualifying people from Hong Kong.  If Rocha were also an Irish citizen (following an application for naturalisation as such), it is improbable that he would continue to carry a British passport on his travels, while his spouse and children carry Irish passports. Qwerta369 (talk) 09:50, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Awaiting comments from NorthernCounties The Mi ke •Wassup doc? 18:01, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Bump. Qwerta369 (talk) 11:45, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
 * He seems to be inactive. I will wait for one more day.  The Mi ke •Wassup doc? 12:18, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry for my inactivity and delay in response, I was visiting friends in Windsor, Berkshire of all places... anyway back to the topic at hand. "He's a charmer, this plump and comfortable exile who clings to his British passport on his endless travels, despite the scorn of his (Irish-passport-bearing) children and his wife Odette." comes from an Independent source dating back some 10 years now. Whereas, I've provided a reference from The Guardian, (an equally as reputable source) here claiming that he was Irish, from less that 3 years ago. This could easily mean he no longer holds the aforementioned Passport due to the time lapse between the sources, the more recent stating he is indeed Irish. Further it appears that Qwerty has dropped his arguement concerning British awards, probably due to the fact he has won numerous Irish awards aswell. What I'm really at a loss to understand is the point blank refusal to have Irish on this article. I'm not arguing at all for the removal of British. I've only supported that Wikipedia portray the fact that John Rocha lives in Ireland, has settled in Ireland, is known as an Irish Designer, his offical website is an Irish domain, has Irish children and has numerous references from both retailers and British Newspapers stating that he's Irish. Should the Wikipedia article ignore this? --NorthernCounties (talk) 17:27, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

NorthernCounties, can you specify which sentence in the article you mentioned implies that he was Irish? Okay, commenting generally, I think the fact that he is Irish is not disputed, because numerous sources say so. Keep in mind that he being Irish does not mean that he has Irish citizenship. For example, I am American, but I hold Indian citizenship. So, I ask you to find sources which confirm his citizenship. Awaiting replies.  The Mi ke •Wassup doc? 12:45, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The title of the article states it... "My space The Irish designer John Rocha...". If there is no disputing the fact that he is Irish, why are we disputing it? Also Mike, if we were to right an article about you, would it state that you were Indian and nothing else? Would Indian born, American not be correct? Further to this, it's rare to find articles that state someones Citizenship, just as Qwerty I'm sure could only find that one that provides a ref regarding a British Passport. Would we argue that Mika was not British? His parents were american and lebanese. He himself was born in Lebanon, yet the article states the fact that he's British with not citation he has a passport. There are numerous more occurences of this type across wikipedia. So again I'll ask, what is incorrect when we accept that hes Irish, that the opening sentence says "British born, Irish". --NorthernCounties (talk) 13:07, 25 January 2011 (UTC)


 * He is Irish. I think there is no objection to that. Qwerta369, can I know your side of the argument? Are you disputing the fact that he is Irish?  The Mi ke •Wassup doc? 10:00, 29 January 2011 (UTC)


 * By nature of his birth and parentage, John Rocha is either a British National (Overseas) or Portuguese (or both). British nationality law and Portuguese nationality law both allow dual citizenship.  Unless Rocha has, at some point, formally renounced Portuguese citizenship, and assuming that Rocha's father was a Portuguese citizen (which we do not know for sure - we know only that he was ethnically Portuguese), Rocha may indeed be himself Portuguese.  It is also possible that Rocha may have naturalised as a British citizen during his period of residence in the United Kingdom.  This would have facilitated his lawful residence in Ireland prior to his marriage to his wife (who is Irish).  Anecdotally, Rocha may also have a claim to Chinese nationality, but again there is no evidence to suggest that he has ever pursued this and the fact that Rocha holds a British passport negates any possibility that he also lawfully holds Chinese nationality.  Currently, John Rocha is not Irish.  If he were to apply to Ireland's Department of Justice for a certificate of naturalisation and if that application were successful, Rocha would be Irish.  Rocha is entitled to apply for naturalisation under one of at least three categories: 1) Spouse of an Irish citizen, 2) of Irish Associations, or 3) Lawfully resident in the state of Ireland for at least five years.  The crux is, there is no evidence to suggest that Rocha has ever done this.  Rocha is a resident of Ireland and bases his work here - but neither makes him Irish.  If I were to move to Canada and set up a hotel there, I could not claim to be a Canadian hotelier.  Articles which describe John Rocha as "Irish fashion designer" (or similar), are factually incorrect.  Qwerta369 (talk) 15:48, 31 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Okay, do you have any sources which say that he is British or Portuguese?  The Mi ke •Wassup doc? 10:06, 2 February 2011 (UTC)


 * In the article, it is stated (and not disputed) that John Rocha was born in Hong Kong to a Chinese mother and a Portuguese father, at a time when Hong Kong was a British possession. It is also undisputed that Rocha, at least in 2001, held a British passport (and therefore held some form of British nationality at that time).  This means that Rocha must either have exercised his right under the Hong Kong Act 1985, at any time before 01/07/1997, to become a British National (Overseas) [therefore the type of British nationality held is BN(O)] - or - he naturalised as a British citizen at some time before 2001 [therefore the type of British nationality held is British citizen].  Whether or not Rocha is also a Portuguese citizen would depend on whether or not his father were a Portuguese citizen at the time of Rocha's birth. Qwerta369 (talk) 11:03, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I get your point, but let me say one thing. It is not our part to infer from facts. We, as Wikipedia editors can only write what the sources say. Having said that, have any of you had a look at Template:Infobox person? There are two separate fields, namely Nationality and Citizenship. Note that both of them are different.  The Mi ke •Wassup doc? 18:42, 4 February 2011 (UTC)