Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2011-03-03/Glenn Beck

Where is the dispute?
Glenn Beck

Who is involved?
The list of the users involved. For example:


 * User:ARTEST4ECHO
 * User:Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden
 * User:Redthoreau
 * User:Collect
 * User:HankyUSA

A single comment by User:Good Olfactory was made at Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard in response to that request.

Acceptance of Mediation
Please place your signature here to indicate that you are aware of this mediation process and want to participate in it:
 * --ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 16:26, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * --Hodgson-Burnett&#39;s Secret Garden (talk) 18:17, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

What is the dispute?
If the current inclusion of the word "Mormon" inside the infobox (religion = Mormon (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints)) is correct or incorrect.

What would you like to change about this?
The discussion is civil but (even after input from Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard) there is an obvious impasse and the discussion has becoming circular.

How do you think we can help?
I think an outside look may help move thing along. Someone who is willing to consider a change at all. Those in this dispute (admittedly including myself) have there minds set and are unable to come to a conclusion other then the one they believe, and as such no changes are even entertained.

Mediator notes
I will look over the dispute to familiarize myself with the issue. Alpha Quadrant   talk    01:02, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Issue has been resolved. Alpha Quadrant    talk    02:54, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Discussion
My view is this. Both the wp:Manual of Style (Latter Day Saints) and Naming conventions (Latter Day Saints) clearly say that they term "Mormon" is incorrect when referring a Latter Day Saint sect, as a religion. This includes the current infobox.


 * Both the wp:Manual of Style (Latter Day Saints) and Naming conventions (Latter Day Saints) say that "the term Latter-day Saint is more accurate than Mormon, and therefore preferred" and that although "Mormon" has been used to in reference to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, this "term that should not be used in Wikipedia articles in any case, since there are several churches that could be described as a "Mormon church"". If were not going to followed Naming conventions and MOS why have any of them?
 * The fact that Beck has said "I am a Mormon" is irrelevant. Using "Mormon" or “I am Mormon” as a Religion is using the wrong definition of “Mormon”. “Mormon” is an “individual person” not a “Religion”.  That is why a MOS was written and that is why it’s wrong here. You can call yourself "Christian" (or Mormon) all you want, but that isn't your "Religion".  Your religion is ether the over all term such as Catholicism, Lutheranism, Adventism, Latter-day Saint, etc. or the name of your Church, Catholic, Religious Society of Friends, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, etc.
 * The links is misleading. The Mormon link takes you to a page about all sects within Mormonism, not his sect in particular. Again, which Mormon is he? Is he IRLSD, CoC, TLC, FLDS,Strangite, etc., all of whom use "Mormon". "Mormon" is ambiguous.  You wouldn't put Christian, Southern Baptist since the Southern Baptists is the "religion" this person is and there are hundreds of thousand of groups who call themselves "Christian" (including the Latter Day Saints)
 * Even if you argue that since "Mormon" is a type of religion, it is still not the proper way to refer to that religion per the Naming conventions and Manual of Style. It should then Read "Latter-day Saint, Church .... Saints".
 * The argument that Mormon Times and mormon.org use "Mormon" is irrelevant. If we give the LDS Church the right to the inclusion or remove the term "Mormon" from Wikipedia then that is POV toward the LDS Church. They are not the only Mormons out there. What give them the right to either claim the title only for themselve or the right to disown the term?

I think, most importantly the information is simple not needed. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints links goes directly to his church page. There is no ambiguity at to which Latter day sect he belongs to. Using Mormon is incorrect and opens too many questions.--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 16:26, 3 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I would disagree with Artest. Beck himself self identifies as "Mormon" and has said clearly "I'm Mormon" (a ref has been added to the article as well). Beck's DVD about his religious views is entitled "Unlikely Mormon: The Conversion Story of Glenn Beck". Not "Unlikely LDS'er" or "Unlikely Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" etc. A sort clip from this DVD can be seen ---> here where he states 0:42-0:46 "I'm not the model Mormon" & 0:55-0:58 "Well he's a Mormon, they must all be like that". Lastly, the naming convention you refer to is a suggestion dealing with generic usage, not with what someone self-identifies as. Moreover, the fact that there are several branches of Mormonism is discussed in the linked article to Mormon. Thus, I would "insist" on Mormon because (1) Beck himself does, (2) The vast majority (near unanimous) of the sources do per WP:Verify & WP:Undue. He calls himself a Mormon, 99% of the sources call him a Mormon, yet Wikipedia will exclusively label him a "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Saints"(er)? = which does not even make grammatical sense when asked the question "What religion are you?" Moreover, to prevent confusion from readers who are not familiar with the intricacies of Mormon vernacular, they might not realize that Mormon and Latter Day Saint are the same thing in Beck’s situation (which is why both of them are included in the info box). For instance, they might incorrectly get the impression or think to themselves; oh Beck became Mormon and then converted to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints – which are the same thing in the common parlance, and in Beck’s specific situation. Lastly, the insinuation of the objection almost seems to be that "Mormon" is somehow a pejorative term, that the LDS Church rejects, when it is not. For instance, the LDS church has been running their own "I’m a Mormon" TV ad campaign in 9 different cities in the U.S. ---> news clip. Additionally, the LDS Church’s runs a website at Mormon.org (see bottom of the page), while a newspaper owned by the LDS church is the Mormon Times. Of specific relevance to this article, on a basic google search Glenn Beck + Mormon = 313,000 results while Glenn Beck + Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints = only 50,700 results. When you couple this with the fact that Beck himself only refers to himself as "Mormon" (as nearly all the sources do), then that is what he should be identified as (with The LDS church in parenthesis to show his particular "sect" of Mormonism) - as yes some Mormons are not LDS, but all LDS are Mormons.   Red thoreau  -- (talk) 23:29, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I think Beck's religious beliefs could be described as "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)."
 * That said, I want to point out some minutia that folks unfamiliar with LDS terminology might not know about.
 * The Missouri-based Community of Christ does not call its members Mormon (althought they believe them to be, technically, "Latter Day Saints"--still, they downplay the Latter Day Saint designation these days...).
 * Per the style guide at Newsroom.LDS.org/Style, the Utah-based LDS Church prefers that NO nickname be used for its church, at least in print (which include "the LDS Church" or "the Mormon Church")--after initial use of the church's full name, the CoJCoLDS, they want to be called "the church."
 * Ironcially, even the LDS themselves verbally call their church "the LDS Church" or "the Mormon Church" for short
 * The LDS Church prefers that their members be called Latter-day Saints but don't mind their being called Mormon in print
 * Despite its dislike of any nicknames for the church, in headlines especially, even the LDS Church-owned Deseret News uses the initialism LDS to refer to it--"adjectively," we suppose? --in that it's simply shorter and useful for that purpose, we guess.
 * There is also LDS Family Services, the weekly LDS Church News (an official news publication of the LDS Church), LDS Business College, LDS Student Association, etc. etc. etc.
 * (also Mormon trail, Mormon pioneers, Mormon Tabernacle Choir, the daily Mormon Times (an unofficial publication for and about Mormons that happens to be owned by the LDS Church [Note: the LDS Church also owns the conservative Deseret News and the liberal Salt Lake Tribune, however the latter's editorial staff is especially independent from the church]), the Mormon Battalion (used in the mid-19th C. U.S. War with Mexico), Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Mormon studies (which is akin to Judaic studies or Adventist studies or Catholic studies), etc. etc. etc.
 * The LDS Church indeed tries to monopolize the term "Mormon" only to itself.
 * The above point being said: This attempted monopolization may or may not be completely fair but it is also reflected in common speech. Mormon means member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; Mormon fundamentalist means one of the perhaps 70,000 people who believe it good to practice polygamy currently; New Order Mormon means someone who belongs to a certain faction of essentially humanistic or agnostic LDS Church members, etc, etc.
 * (The same is true of Catholics. Catholic in the English language means " Roman Catholic." If one want to say New Age (splinter group) "Catholic"; or Greek Catholic (the small number of Greek language Christians that accept the bishop of Rome; not to be confused with Greek Orthodox), or Lebanese "Maronite Catholic"; or those ultra traditionalists that broke away from the modern Catholic Church after Vatican II; or high church Episcopalians who term themselves Anglican Catholic; etc--then one needs to add the appropriate qualifier to Catholic, since in English if you simply write "Catholic," you mean: "Roman Catholic!" Hence: Catholic Social Workers is R.C.; Catholic Encyclopedia refers to R.C.; the The Catholic University of America is R.C.; Catholic schools are R.C.; Irish Catholics are R.C.; etc etc etc etc.)
 * --Hodgson-Burnett&#39;s Secret Garden (talk) 20:15, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * As a sidenote, read the comments below this small town newspaper article about a local candidate who happens to be Mormon. The town, Mesquite, Nevada, is a miniscule resort town that is now 6.23% Mormon but had been approximately 100% Latter-day Saint a generation ago when it was a farming town. Every single commenter writes "LDS" instead of Mormon in the commentary thread, whether their viewpoint is essentially pro-LDS or vaguely (or not-so-vaguely) anti-LDS. Why? I don't know but it could it be for the same reason that in the early part of the twentieth century people would more "delicately" say such things as "Hebrew" instead of the more generally understood "Jew," or "colored" instead of "Negro," in the parlance of the time. (Actually, after the term LDS has been used hundreds of times in the thread, the last post has a single use of Mormon when a commenter says, "I'm not a Mormon but...." The only other instance of the term's being used is when one commenter literally puts it in quotation marks: "...you have obviously never meet a real 'Mormon' if you are doubting for one second their patriotism!" Lol.--Hodgson-Burnett&#39;s Secret Garden (talk) 21:31, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

This is just one example of what I mean by there is more then one "Mormon" and why "Mormon is ambiguous. Fanatic Burns a Mormon Church, New York Times.  This story is about the Church of Christ (Temple Lot) not the Utah Mormon's.--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 17:13, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * A more current headline than the over-100-years-old one ARTEST4ECHO cites is here.--Hodgson-Burnett&#39;s Secret Garden (talk) 18:34, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * You are correct. I just pick the one that I easily found on Wikipedia.  There are a number of very resent cases here.  Just search for "Mormon".  There are listing for "Mormon Church", "Mormon Prophet", etc." all of which have nothing to do with the Utah Latter-Day Saints (Glenn Beck's church).--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 20:12, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * In a current post at Time magazine's blog, Richard Corliss also uses Mormon to refer to people not belonging to the LDS Church: LINK--Hodgson-Burnett&#39;s Secret Garden (talk) 08:40, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Allow me to deconstruct Corliss's references in the above piece:
 * - "A Mormonish church," "the LDS and its offshoots," etc., refer to the Latter Day Saint movement, in general
 * - "Cult of Heavenly Motherism" refers to a well-known doctinal stream within historical and present-day Mormonism
 * - "Gray panther of Mormon feminism" might refer to such no-longer-mainstream Mormons as Margaret Merrill Toscano, Sonia Johnson, etc.
 * - Dialogue-snippet "The woods are full of kooks wandering around in robes saying, 'That's what God wants" refers to such Utah individuals as: no-longer-mainstream Mormon visionary Stirling Allan; convicted criminal Brian David Mitchell/aka Immanuel David Isaiah; etc.
 * - "Nouveau-polygamist" refers to such plygs as: the Centennial Park group; the present-day Church of the Firstborn; the Kingston clan; or the AUB (Apostolic United Brethren) that basketball player Lance Allred was raised in; etc.
 * - "A fourth strain, Albie's" refers to such old-fashioned or otherwise extremist groups as: the FLDS; the now nearly defunct, murderous Church of the Lamb group of Ervil LeBaron infamy; etc.
 * - "Regulation-LDS," "mainstream Mormons," "regular Mormon," etc., refer to the CoJCoLDS
 * --Hodgson-Burnett&#39;s Secret Garden (talk) 09:56, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Artest, per WP:Verify we are supposed to refer to Beck as “Mormon” first and foremost because he himself does and nearly all the sources do. It wouldn’t matter if Beck himself even knew what “Mormon” meant, or if he himself actually attended a Catholic church thinking it was a Mormon temple. Wikipedia is not concerned with WP:Accuracy or WP:Truth, only WP:Verifiability. The "naming convention" is also irrelevant in this case. It is merely a suggestion for vague cases where we are speaking generally in terms of the LDS church. It is not for cases where the individual themselves have unilaterally decided to identify themselves solely as “Mormon” and hence the sources have as well. You can continue to argue this point, but the Wiki policy won’t change. We are here to repeat the sources, not to “correct” the record or fix what you seem to think is an intricate technicality. Red thoreau -- (talk) 18:05, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Making the case for using (or including) "Mormon"
Artest et al, ... --- HOW BECK CLASSIFIES HIMSELF ---  ... But really what does Beck know when it comes to what religion he is right? So per WP:Verify what do most of the sources say ? ... (and this is just a small sample of the thousands of instances from 2010-now - we can do more years if you'd like) --- HOW THE MAJORITY OF SOURCES REFER TO BECK ---
 * Glenn Beck on his own show October 21, 2010 ~  "I'm just a Mormon"
 * Glenn Beck, on Fox News Sunday August 29, 2010 ~  "Look, I'm Mormon"
 * Beck on "Being Mormon" ~  "I'm not the model Mormon"
 * Beck's DVD about his religious views is entitled ~  "Unlikely Mormon: The Conversion Story of Glenn Beck"
 * CNN ~  "Conservative media star Glenn Beck is Mormon"
 * The Christian Post ~  "some evangelicals remain wary of Beck’s Mormon faith"
 * Politics Daily ~  "Beck is also a Mormon"
 * The Washington Post ~  "Mormon leaders see the ascendancy of these and other Mormons (such as convert Glenn Beck) "
 * The Economist ~  "A few Mormons may even stoke it themselves. For instance, Glenn Beck"
 * Financial Times ~  "Mr Beck, a Mormon and a libertarian"
 * The religious scholar Joanna Brooks (herself a Mormon) ~  "Mormonism has a 'branding' problem, observing that our most famous member — Glenn Beck — may be a liability"
 * AOL News ~  "Glenn Beck, who is Mormon"
 * Time Magazine ~  "Glenn Beck: The Mormon Radical" (title of the article)
 * Las Vegas Review Journal ~  "Harry Reid topped conservative talk show host Glenn Beck and several others for the Mormon of the Year"
 * Pittsburgh Post Gazette ~  "different from that of Glenn Beck, a Mormon"
 * The Salt Lake Tribune ~  "Is Glenn Beck good for Mormonism?" (title of the article)
 * Mormon Times ~  "Mormons respond to Beck" (title of article)
 * National Post ~  "It is interesting that Glenn Beck – a Mormon"
 * The Toronto Star ~  "coming from Beck, whose own faith — Mormonism"
 * Press Herald ~  "Some Mormons wonder if commentator Glenn Beck is damaging a skeptical public's view of their faith"
 * The Providence Journal ~  "the equally Mormon but far less uptight Beck" (by Beck ally Jonah Goldberg)
 * The Washington Post ~  "Beck, a convert to Mormonism"
 * Salt Lake Tribune ~  "'Glenn Beck's Mormon faith is irrelevant', Falwell said."
 * CBS News ~  "Glenn Beck (who has converted to Mormonism)"
 * Mormon Times ~  "Glenn Beck is a Mormon"
 * Salon Magazine ~  "Beck himself is a Mormon."
 * Christian Century ~  "it is likely that Glenn Beck's Mormonism"
 * The New York Times ~  "(Beck's) Mormonism forbids coffee"
 * Politics Daily ~  "Mormons like Glenn Beck"
 * Globe and Mail ~  "Mr. Beck, who became a Mormon in 1999"
 * Houston Chronicle ~  "tea-party icon Glenn Beck's Mormonism"
 * The Washington Post ~  "including Beck's own Mormon Church"
 * Daily Gazette ~  "if that other Mormon, Glenn Beck"
 * Christian Science Monitor ~  "He and his second wife converted to Mormonism"
 * National Post ~  "Mormon broadcaster Glenn Beck"
 * Tampa Tribune ~  "of Beck, who is a Mormon"
 * Newsweek ~  "Glenn Beck—who happens to be Mormon" + (title of the article = "Not Too Mormon")
 * Boston Globe ~  "fellow Mormons like shout-show host Glenn Beck"

Now obviously it would be reasonable to include (LDS) in parenthesis to make clear that Beck belongs to the mainstream group of Mormons who attend the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. But it would be absurd to remove "Mormon" altogether (as Artest would like to do), just as it would be to list Beck solely as a "Latter Day Saint". Additionally, only listing his Church’s title "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints", without acknowledging that this makes him "Mormon" for all intents and purposes - would also violate WP:V. Red thoreau -- (talk) 21:39, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * This list you made is useless since I can also make the same list for the same number of WP:V source that say exactly the opposite as you. You asked me to show you any references and I gave you four including some that don't even use the word "Mormon" at all.  I love how you dismissed as "undo" when they come from the exact same sources you just spent so much time listing.  If my sources are undo then so are yours.  So, give me a number and I can give you that many, but I doubt it will matter.

Making the case against using "Mormon"
I find it funny that the change suggested is to completely remove "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" then the above calim is that you only want to "include" Mormon. It should be clear that the changes suggested exclude all else except "Mormon". Mormon is no different then using plain old "Mormon", and (LDS) is no more "reasonable". The current setup at least has the correct name of his church, which is why I left it as is it was until "Red" decided to change it before a consensus was reached, even though I disagree with it

Weather Glenn Beck calls himself "Mormon or not, or what anyone else calls him is irrelevant. You can list every source you have to that fact.  Again I will admit he dose.  However, it doesn’t matter. The "Religion =" in the infobox is asking what religion is, and not the nickname for what set of beliefs he has.  Again, you are confusing "Mormon" with a "Religion".  Mormon is not his "Religion" it is his Belief system.  It is no different then using "Christian" is not a "Religion" for a Quaker Roman Catholic or "Mormon", as you like to use, or any other "Christian" Chruch.  You might as will put "Christian", "apostolic", "fundamentalist" or any other vause term as his religion, it works the same and is just as non-specific and POVish.  "Within the Infobox, "Religion" is defined using WP:BLPCAT and Mormon isn't a choice there at all. There is no "Mormons" category. At BEST "Mormon" is a nickname for member of any Latter-day Saint Sect, at worst is a pejoratives (negative) term to "describe those who followed Joseph Smith". You might as will call him a cultest (member of a cult) while you at it, since there are hundreds of wp:V that say that all Mormons are cult members. If you bothered to read WP:MOSLDS you might understand this. There is no such thing as a single Mormon "religion" and using it as such is wrong.--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 22:49, 9 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Artest, if "Mormon" is "pejorative" then you may want to inform the LDS church, which was running their own "I’m a Mormon" TV ad campaign in 9 different cities in the U.S. ---> news clip. You might also want to caution the official LDS church about placing their information at Mormon.org, which might give the wrong impression; if indeed this is an insulting or offensive term. Moreover, Beck as a Mormon member of the LDS church presumably holds the Book of Mormon to be a sacred text, so we might also want to change the name to "Book of Latter Day Saint" or something less "offensive". Finally, it is clear that you Artest find it relevant enough to inform everyone on your user page that you consider yourself to be "a member of a Latter Day Saint church". Now you are obviously free to not personally identify as "Mormon" or see the word as "pejorative", but it is clear that Beck obviously does not share your same feelings - and is more than happy to say "I'm a Mormon". As for your own preoccupations or hang ups against the term - they aren't relevant to what we identify Beck as. Lastly, I believe that it is clear that our personal circular argument isn’t going anywhere, so that is why they have things like mediation, where we can await the judgment of other editors and the mediator (then again, you’ve already shown that you won’t honor any of the mediators suggestions either).  Red thoreau  -- (talk) 00:05, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * A. Saying "I am Mormon" or "He is Mormon" is not equal to "His religion is Mormon".  Even though I admit that all your sources say "Mormon" or "I am Mormon" that dose not equal "Glenn Beck's religion is Mormon".  If it did then using your own WP:V sources such as CNN, Times, AOL, and even Mormon.org the same statements are made about Thomas S. Monson.  For example, "The Mormon President Thomas S. Monson" has in the past, in the present, and in the future will be used,  So according to your argument Thomas S. Monson's "Religion" must be Mormon, right? No it is not.  Go and put "religion = Mormon" on his page and see how long that lasts?  The same can be applied to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints page it self.  All the article use "Mormon" to describe "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" so that page should be named "Mormon" with a redirect from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to Mormon right.  Again "I am Mormon" or "He is Mormon" dose not equal "His Religion is Mormon".  If you bothered to read anything about the word "Mormon" and its usages you would know that when Glenn Beck is say "I am Mormon" he is not saying that "His Religion is Mormon", any more then when Pope John Paul says "I am Christian" that "religion = Roman Catholic" isn't the appropriate "Religion" since "Christian" isn't what "religion" he is (or what even type of Catholic he is I really don't know what that is).
 * B. I said that "Mormon" was a "Nickname" at best and at worst Mormon is "pejorative". The statement that "Mormon" is at worst "pejorative" can be proven from the wikipida Mormon page.  It says "The terms "Mormon" and "Mormonite" were first used in the 1830s as pejoratives to describe those who followed Joseph Smith and believed in the divine origin of the Book of Mormon. "  I did not say that it is always or even generally "pejorative". Your putting word into my mouth.  The statement that it is a nickname also come from Mormon, which says "While the term "Mormon Church" has long been attached to the church as a nickname". Nothing in that statement is false.
 * E. Since Mormon is a nickname then it is used by writers, including Glenn Beck to shorten the name of his "religion" from the longer "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints".  Using Mormon is like saying "John Jacob Johnson Smith III here after referred to as "The Plaintiff" and then making the leap to "name ="The Plaintiff".  "I am Mormon" dose not equal "My religion is Mormon".  Notably, the Mediator was not asked to address if "Mormon" was the name of a religion, so why is the Mediator suggesting that?
 * C. The mediator said "Any thoughts?", "This is open to suggestions",  "if someone has any additional ideas please feel free to make suggestions.", at no time dose that mean that a consensus has been reached.  Mediation means coming to an agreement.  A mediators jobs are to make suggestion as ask for input not impose a consensus,  That is what I am doing and demanding that I follow the very first suggestion out of his/her mouth is not the point of mediation.  Your comment about ignoring hi/her are inappropriate and Uncivil|.  Mediators are suppose to try to help the two sides come together, not force a consensus.
 * D. The Mediators failed to even address the question I asked or that was being debated.  I, or anyone else, was never given the chance to discuss if "Mormon" was his "Religion".  I asked if "Mormon", as a nickname and a violation of wp:MOSLDS was appropriate.  At no point was if it should be "Mormon" or "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" as was his/her very first statement was talked about discussed.  Why should something unrelated to the previous discussion be decided by a mediator who failed to even read the issue at hand.  He/she might as well have suggested changing "Nationally = American" to Nationally = USA".  Mediators are suppose to try to help the two sides come together on the discussed issue, not answer discussed about questions and make unrelated suggestions.
 * F. To address you personal attack, not that is is any of your business, but yes I am Mormon.   I admit I have left what kind of "Mormon" vague both here and on my userpage, since I have found that if I say I am a member of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" then then a claim of wp:POV and wp:COI are always thrown out since I must be trying to push official "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" POV.  Since that church has said officially said that "Mormon is incorrect" declaration, then I'm must be trying to push there POV.  If I'm not a member of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints", then a claim that I am trying to push the POV of another sect is thrown out.  In this care you are going to make the same claim wp:POV and wp:COI since I am trying to push the POV of other Sects in the Latter Day Saint movement have officially said that not all "Mormons" are members of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints"  and so using "Mormon" for them is incorrect" (See FLDS, TLC and AUB for there official declarations).  I have seen this happen over and over again in every Latter Day Saint and Latter-Day Saint article discussion.  Once side always screams wp:POV and wp:COI so you can't participate no matter what side you are on.  That is why I have chosen to be intentionally vague, and the fact that you brought it up is proof enough that my caution is justified,  I have not gone to your userpage to find out what Church you go to, so why are you doing it to find out what kind of "Mormons" I am?
 * G. On a personal note, I have decided to take a 24 hour Cooling-off period. This in no way means that i agree with any comments left after my post, only that I haven't read them and replied yet.  Since Red can't arbitrarily decided to enforce some consensus  he thinks has been force upon "et al" I think my own comments can wait 24 hours so I can take a minute to focus on my non-wikipida life and try to regain some wp:civil on both sides.--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 11:46, 10 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Artest, I am not sure why you are so hung up on the semantic interpretation that “Religion” as a general term in every info box directly implies “state your religion here”. Another way to look at the broad phrase is, “Religion= this person is a _____, (and if applicable) attends the ________”. If someone asked Beck the common American question “what religion are you?”, it would be fair to extrapolate from his own statements that Beck would probably answer with “I’m Mormon”. And 99 % of the population knows that when he uses Mormon that he means the mainstream Mormon’s based in Salt Lake City associated with the LDS (although many Americans might not know that Mormon = Latter Day-Saint, which is more esoteric knowledge that you would be more likely to know the closer your vicinity is to any Mormons). Now using your “nationality = USA” argument, what I am suggesting in your analogy would be to list “Nationality = Mexican” while you would be suggesting “Nationality = United Mexican States” (the official term for ‘Mexico’). As for what you deem to be a personal attack, it isn’t my business what religion you are, but you felt it relevant to voluntarily share with everyone on your user page that you consider yourself a Latter-Day Saint. That’s great, and I would never say that you shouldn’t edit LDS articles (in fact Mormons would be the prime people with knowledge to edit specific LDS-related articles). My issue arose because in my view you were displaying an overzealous emotional reaction to the term “Mormon”, and thus showing severe inflexibility and inability to acknowledge the clear majority of sources on the matter. So before I ever even looked at your user page, I began to think that you were taking this to personally (hinting that it could potentially ruin your day etc) – and almost had to be a Mormon yourself who does not like to officially be referred to as a "Mormon", but personally prefers “Latter-Day Saint”. Then walla, I clicked on your user page and right there it confirmed my inclination. Now does that mean that you can’t edit the article? Of course not. But I believe it does possibly explain why you are so head strong and emotionally invested in him not being called “Mormon”, because you personally don’t prefer it. However you aren’t Beck, and he doesn’t have any hang ups with the term Mormon, in fact the few times he does speak about his personal religious beliefs – he simply sums them up with “I’m Mormon” and lets all the chips from that fall where they may.  Red thoreau  -- (talk) 22:18, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

"Denomination" Proposal
Ok, I realize it hasn't been 24 hours, but I have come up with something that might make reaching a final agreement possible, so I will proposed it and completly ignore everything else and then return later, since I don't want to let this effect my day. The biggest obstacle it see that that the proposed change deviated from the original discussion by removing a part that wasn't discussed at all. So if we can resolve that new issue, perhaps a final agreement is possible. So will this work for Red, et al. Instead of completely removing "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" can we agree the this is a least Glenn Beck's "Denomination". A religious denomination is a subgroup within a religion that operates under a common name, tradition, and identity. So I think that all your and my WP:V sources at minimum say that "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" is his "Denomination", since it is said numerous times that he join "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" and not some other "Latter-day Saint" sect. Since the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints "operates under a common name, tradition, and identity." diffenet from other "Mormons" (Compare LDS to FLDS, CoC, CofChrist etc.), then "Mormon" with any piplink would not correct as a "Denomination".

So can we agree to remove "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" from this issue by adding "| denomination =The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" to the infobox? Unless there is some reason that "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" should be hidden I don't see why this can't work for this part. Then we can get back to the original issue instead of debating something new?--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 07:00, 11 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Artest, there are several problems with your denomination proposal. (1) I believe having a “denomination =” listing would violate MOS. (2) I am not even sure the info box would allow you to insert a “denomination =” option, as these info boxes are set up to be uniform and not really allow for unique categories. Have you ever personally seen this done on a Wiki article or in a info box? (3) Semantically the “religion =” category is there for someone’s common religious title and their denomination or specific church (if applicable) i.e. Quaker (Society of Friends) or Catholic (St. X Cathedral). In Beck’s case it makes sense to say he is religion = Mormon (LDS) or possibly religion = Mormon (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints). What would you disagree with about the latter bolded option?  Red thoreau  -- (talk) 22:26, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * <--I'm tired of having to post in two places. My response is on the Talk:Glenn Back page since the mediator poster his/her comments there.--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 13:32, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Finding the agreement
Ok, I am trying to find a compromise with the other side. However, this only works if the above “Partial Agreement” is accepted, since I think removing “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saint” is wrong and should be a part of the infox, if at a minimum as his “denomination”.
 * If I agree that “Mormon” in the “religion =” can be included in some way, even though I still don’t think it should be since there is no "Mormon" religon, can the other side agree the “Latter-Day Saint” (with the “-“) also can be included in some way since that is the correct “Religion” per wp:MOSLDS and WP:BLPCAT? Then all we need to decide on is format, since the content will already be decided?--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 14:04, 11 March 2011 (UTC)


 * All along I have argued that BOTH "Mormon" and "LDS" or the longer "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" would be relevant for inclusion. Our disagreement seems to revolve around (1) The order & (2) The fact that you don’t believe that “Mormon” should be included at all. I have shown that per WP:V, "Mormon" is worthy of info box inclusion, so now to me the real issue is the order - with the options being (a) “Mormon (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints)” or (b) Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon). As for “denomination”, the only way I think that would be necessary as a separate column, is if you used “Religion = Mormonism” & “Denomination = Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” – as “Mormonism” is used just as often in relation to Beck as “Mormon” is.  Red thoreau  -- (talk) 07:04, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * <--I'm tired of having to post in two places. My response is on the Talk:Glenn Back page since the mediator poster his/her comments there.--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 13:32, 14 March 2011 (UTC)