Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2011-03-27/

Where is the dispute?
The Wudang Chuan page and its Talk page.

Who is involved?
TommyKirchhoff 98.85.111.17 aka Terri Morgan (www.Wudang.com); she has another previous IP address listed on the Talk page

Acceptance of Mediation
Please place your signature here to indicate that you are aware of this mediation process and want to participate in it:
 * TommyKirchhoff (talk) 20:01, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

What is the dispute?
The Wudang Chuan page has been highly researched and developed over many years. At this point, semi-protection might be prudent, as fringe editors continue to alter the page to large degrees, deleting references and omitting information that has been carefully placed. Terri Morgan is edit-warring without an understanding of Wikipedia guidelines (especially references). She will not discuss any changes, and calls my comments "hatemonger." Admittedly, I am passionate about this page, and have spent most of my WP career here. It is important to note also that the other party involved is deleting comments from the Talk page there. I have tried to contact Terri Morgan, explaining to her that eliminating solid references is a no-no; but she reverts the page as if it is clearly "wrong." Other editors have helped a great deal on this page, telling administrators that the work contained is factual and founded, and that it attempts to remove legend in favor of actual research. Terri has deleted 12 references in her edits, and the writing style she provides is less than encyclopedic.

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The page is biased, off topic, propagates a single point of view, and presents very little factual information about the topic. It is heavily one-sided and limited in its sources. The pages are full of references which do not pertain to this topic.

What would you like to change about this?
Terri Morgan will not have a discussion with me. First, a discussion needs to happen. She may need to be blocked, and the page may need to be semi-protected.

Whining and vitriolic attacks are not going to get me or anyone else to listen to you, Mr. Kirchhoff. I do not engage with those stalk me, attack me, call me stupid, and are otherwise completely impolite and abusive. You insist on the world subscribing to your point of view, and completely refuse to include any information you do not agree with. No one else is allowed to contribute to this Wikipedia article since, according to you, you own the topic.

The topic as Mr. Kirchhoff writes, is biased, contains numerous false statements, and is 90% off topic. The majority of his article is not about Wudang Quan, it is about his personal view of the world and somewhat about internal arts. In every case, he has prevented any other person (see the talk pages) from making any changes to HIS article. He cites references which have no bearing, makes statements exclusively based on his clearly limited experience, and goes out of his way to discredit everyone who attempts to correct HIS article.

I have repeatedly asked (via emails) for Mr. Kirchhoff to be blocked and his vitirol against me (below) to be stopped. I have also suggested that there are several other people who would be happy to contribute to making this topic into a genuine topic (not merely Mr. Kirchhoff's personal view) - once Mr. Kirchhoff is blocked from removing all but his own opinions. Unfortunately, I have received only policy quotes and excuses. I have only recently been directed to this page.


 * Sorry, Teri. You discredit yourself completely by ignoring and erasing such concrete and varied references; by presenting as fact that the Wudang martial arts originated at Wudang Mountain with ZERO reference; and with all Weasel Word junk you chose for the introduction. Some of what you did makes sense to me, but you were way out of line to make the changes you did. I'm happy to revert garbage like that all day long. Also, please sign your posts using four tilds; that's just how it's done. TommyKirchhoff (talk) 15:51, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Terri Morgan, aka 98.85.111.17 can be seen on the history of this page DELETING my comment. Pretty sneaky, Terri-- but not that smart. A third-grader could write better and more academically than this drivel. TommyKirchhoff (talk) 18:07, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Because Terri Morgan very much desires an Edit War, I would like to open up the discussion. First, I do not understand why it is believed the article needs rewriting. The tags regarding style, bias, etc. might invite such action; however, the introduction is well-researched and grounded to strong references (please regard Simon & Schuster, Sun Lu-ta'ng); it is immediately localized to its origin of China, expresses the comparative philology of the page's title to English, WP links to the five major martial arts included in the group, and it briskly sweeps away the myth (with citations). I believe the sentence and link regarding Neijia is very important as folks continue to try to merge the two (discussion can be found on the Talk page). Second, the history section expresses the etymology and usage of the term Wudangquan, which did in fact originate at the turn of the 20th century and became popular after the all-China competition in 1928. Someone please point out the bias in any of this. Third, the remaining sections point out the most notable lineages of Wudangquan; while anyone could point out that I am biased because I study under Victor Fu, Fu Style Wudang Fist is in fact the most notable lineage as Fu Chen Sung was appointed the top BaGuazhang instructor for all of China by the Central Government. The most famous Wudang / Tai Chi personality in the world is Bow Sim Mark of Boston. Terri Morgan should readily agree that Master Mark's accolades extend far-beyond those of her own.
 * Next, since Terri Morgan sees no problem with her rewrite of the page, I would like to openly criticize it. Terri's first three sentences say absolutely nothing. It's garbage. When she finally gets to the name Wudang, the writing smothers the reader with Chinese characters and rattles off a diluted list of styles and synonyms with what I see as bias. Terri's rewrite is conspicuously devoid of any references, other than the (questionable) copyrighted Chinese manuscripts she has uploaded. Her rewrite removes no less than twelve (12) solid references I cited, including and especially the Simon & Schuster book titled "The Fighting Arts" and "XingYi Quan Xue" by the historical king of these arts, Sun Lu-t'ang. Terri's rewrite includes many laughable statements, but her "Wudang martial arts originated in the Wudang Mountains" soars beyond ridicule as it is stated as fact, provides no reference, and has been proven to be monumentally incorrect. The three introductory sentences are absurdly puffy, but my favorite sentence in the entire array has to be, "The problem with legends is that they are legends." Wow. The problem with Wikipedia is anyone can attempt to write it. Moving on, Terri's rewrite desperately tries to define a myriad of other terms which all have their own pages on Wikipedia: Wudang Mountains (even describing the length of them), Zhang SanFeng, Neijia, Taiji (Tai Chi Chuan), Shaolin & QiGong. Next, Terri's rewrite proves her penetrating bias with her section called "Unrelated But Interesting History." With so many references having weblinks and WP links, anyone could spend a day reading and find that BaGuaZhang, XingYiQuan and Tai Chi Chuan all originated from places other than the Wudang Mountains; so the "Unrelated But Interesting History" is in fact THE HISTORY of the Wudang martial arts-- not the biased stories Terri's rewrite means to convey. To say only one of the people mentioned there "practiced Wudang Sword" shows an unacademic bias bordering on jealousy: the article cited from the Boston Globe called "Grande Dame of Wu Dang" is sheerly about Bow Sim Mark who is a third-generation Wudang Swordswoman under Fu Chen Sung, who learned the Wudang Sword techniques from the "one person" Terri's rewrite accepts as a Wudang practitioner. Terri's rewrite removes this reference also, and it omits then entire section on Fu Style which has proven to be the stronghold of Wudang martial arts for almost a century. http://www.taichi-arts.com/article/master-bow-sim-mark/   And what, pray tell, are the images uploaded to Terri's rewrite ? Copyrighted, no doubt, but certainly BIASED to a high degree, and highly-questionable as to their notability. What is that montage of people, symbols, etc. she uploaded to the box ?
 * In short, the long-standing article needs no rewriting; perhaps it could use some massaging here or there.
 * Terri's rewrite needs to catch the tail of comet to arrive anywhere near the land of academia.
 * TommyKirchhoff (talk) 15:10, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

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How do you think we can help?
Create a basis for discussion, and make it mandatory. If she won't discuss the references and topic, help to block her or help her understand the rules of Wikipedia.

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============================================================== Solution: Revert the entire text for the topic to pre-Kirchhoff edits and block Mr. Kirchhoff from making any further changes or creating an alternate/similar topic.

If you want to block me too, that's fine. Whatever needs to be done to make it happen, he needs to be stopped. His falsehoods, complete disrespect for others, and vicious approach are damaging to Wikipedia, the martial arts, his teacher, and everyone connected him or with the subject. Signed: Terri Morgan

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Subject: Re: [Ticket#2011031010000034] wudang quan To: Terri Morgan 

Dear Terri Morgan,

Thank you for your email. Our response follows your message.

03/10/2011 00:04 - Terri Morgan wrote:

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wudang_chuan > > While cited at the beginning of the article as in need of editing, there > are so many prejudicial and outrageous claims as well as outright > falsehoods promoted in this article that it is impossible to simply edit > it. The citations appear to be there to make it appear as though there is a > scholarly basis to the inflammatory opinions expressed by the author. > > The article should be removed pending someone without the current author's > prejudicial and inflammatory style creating a reasonable entry. AND > blocking the current pseudo-editor TommyKirchhoff from removing their > changes or continuing to propagate his personal view of the world. > > The first statement -- there are two schools of martial arts in China - > Shaolin and Wudang - is absolute rubbish. The next several statements are > equally false and use wholly inflammatory language. ("incorrectly purports" > .... referencing a common legend which cannot be proven or disproved; "used > mistakenly in the West" - clearly the author has some contempt or racial > bias against anyone who may have a different opinion). > > I had attempted to edit the page. My edits and "used by permission" > references (I own the copyright) were inferred by the fellow (userid: > TommyKirchhoff) who is propagating his personal view and beliefs on the > page as "theft." > > There appear to be several others in the discussion thread who would > welcome the removal of this tripe and some sort of reasonable approach to > the topic. > > > Theresa M. Morgan, President/CEO > Wudang Research Association > >

Thank you for contacting us regarding the dispute you encountered while editing.

Wikipedia is a collaborative encyclopedia (as explained at ), and so anyone may edit its articles. Its policy, nonetheless, is that articles must be written from a neutral point of view, representing all majority and significant-minority views fairly and without bias, as is discussed extensively at .

However, since article content is not controlled by a central authority, we do not resolve editing disputes via email. Instead, please follow the steps outlined at . These steps are designed to help you work with other editors and to draw upon the help of the wider community.

Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia.

Yours sincerely, Joe Daly