Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Apples (2nd nomination)

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 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellaneous page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the discussion was:  delete. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 18:40, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Portal:Apples


An automated navbox-cloned portal, redundant to its components. There is no non-automated version to restore.

Created in August 2018‎‎ by @The Transhumanist (TTH).

This is one of the last few dozen remaining fully-automated portals, out of over 4,000 created by @The Transhumanist (TTH) and others. It draws its "selected articles" lists solely from 2 navboxes:


 * Template:Apples
 * Template:Crabapples

It draws its "selected images" list solely from the article Apples.

Two newish features of the Wikimedia software means that the articles and navboxes offers all the functionality which portals like this set out to offer. Both features are available only to ordinary readers who are not logged in, but you can test them without logging out by right-clicking on a link, and the select "open in private window" (in Firefox) or "open in incognito window" (Chrome).
 * 1) mouseover: on any link, mouseover shows you the picture and the start of the lead.  So the preview-selected page-function of portals is redundant: something almost as good is available automatically on any navbox or other set of links.  Try it on any  of the  pages listed above.
 * 2) automatic imagery galleries: clicking on an image brings up an image gallery of all the images on that page. It's full-screen, so it's actually much better than even a click-for-next image gallery on a portal.   Try it on any of the articles listed above.

Similar features have been available since 2015 to users of Wikipedia's Android app.

This redundancy has been belatedly acknowledged by TTH, who wrote at the start of this month New encyclopedia program features will likely eventually render most portals obsolete. For example, the pop-up feature of MediaWiki provides much the same functionality as excerpts in portals already, and there is also a slideshow feature to view all the images on the current page (just click on any image, and that activates the slideshow).

Per WP:PORTAL, "Portals serve as enhanced 'Main Pages' for specific broad subjects". But this is massively less useful in every respect than the head article Apple and its navboxes Apples and Crabapples. This may be seen as a broad topic which could satisfy WP:POG, and a curated portal may actually add value for readers.

So I propose that this portal be deleted per WP:TNT, without prejudice to recreating a curated portal in accordance with whatever criteria the community may have agreed at that time.

Note that this portal was discussed in March 2019 at WP:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Crabapples, a rather fractious discussion of 5 portals, which ended as a bit of WP:TRAINWRECK. It was closed with varied outcomes for the 5 pages, including a "keep" for Portal Apples. I am renominating it to allow separate discussion of the Apples portal, in light of new understanding of the redundancy of automate portals, and TTH's belated acknowledgement of that redundancy. Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:27, 18 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Pinging the participants at WP:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Crabapples:, and the closer @Amorymeltzer. -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 15:30, 18 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete - At the time of the debate over Portal:Crabapples, I said that I was not sure that Portal:Apples was needed, and I still think that. This portal averaged 16 daily pageviews in the 1 January - 28 February baseline, as compared to Apple with 3219 daily pageviews.  The real problem with portals in general and with portal discussions is that there are two statements made in the portal guidelines that are both valid, but only one is cited in deletion discussions.  The guidelines state that portals should be about broad topic areas that will attract large numbers of interested readers and portal maintainers, and that a portal is a miniature Main Page.  Yes.  So far, so good.  Portal defenders, and even portal critics, often simply acknowledge that a topic is a broad area, and conclude that it deserves a portal, or that at least the deletion should be without prejudice.  So far, so good.  But a portal should be a miniature Main Page, and the Main Page is a labor-intensive effort.  Multiple Wikipedians devote non-trivial volunteer time to making the Main Page interesting.  A portal is only justified if one editor, the portal maintainer, is planning to devote non-trivial volunteer time to making the portal interesting.  That is the question about this portal.  That is the question about portals in general.  Delete this portal unless a volunteer is offering to maintain it.  This portal wasn't even created by someone who thought for a few hours that she would make the portal interesting.  This portal was created robotically, and that just wastes pixels, and wastes volunteer time looking for a volunteer.  Robert McClenon (talk) 15:55, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete. I buy Robert McClenon's argument, and I've previously suggested these should be upmerged into a Portal:Fruit or Portal:Fruits, anyway. To me, this is too much like Portal:Spaghetti; it's too specific.  Even if someone did want to maintain it, it's dubious it could actually be made interesting.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  16:00, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete - per the above Atsme Talk 📧 16:29, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete with no prejudice to recreation as per User:BrownHairedGirl. Gazamp (talk) 16:46, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. We don't need an autofork of two navboxes anymore than we need an autofork of one navbox. Leviv&thinsp;ich 17:18, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete, per RMC, whose comment is perfectly argued. At best, should be upmerged to Portal:Fruit. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 00:34, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete. has put the issue very clearly; portals need committed maintenance, preferably by an active WikiProject. Peter coxhead (talk) 16:19, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.