Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Anders Feder/ImproveIslamArticles

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 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellaneous page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the discussion was  No consensus to delete. Nakon 01:45, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

User:Anders Feder/ImproveIslamArticles


The page contains polemic materials and hence should be deleted. نان (talk) 13:37, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep Page doesn't fall under WP:POLEMIC as it doesn't try to name and shame any specific editors. The polemical statements within are directly related to improving Wikipedia. Bosstopher (talk) 03:56, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * So there are some polemical statements! In what way are they "directly related to improving Wikipedia". How about those which attack some editors and/or entities such as "the Muslim", "The Iranian"? نان (talk) 11:39, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Polemical statements are allowed so long as they directly relate to wikipedia and improving it. I would agree with you if Anders was attacking all Muslims or all Iranians as bad editors, but that's not what he's doing at all. He's not naming any specific editors. Though I must admit the thing about them putting fingers in their ears and doing an ululation is a very tasteless ethnic stereotype jokeand something Anders should remove. ( Pinging to make you aware of the request) Bosstopher (talk) 23:38, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I disagree. What is tasteless is the skewed editing, not in some obscure user page, but in dozens of mainspace articles due to User:نان/Mhhossein and his close collaborator User:Srahmadi/User:AliAkar/User:M.Sakhaie/etc.--Anders Feder (talk) 08:26, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Another personal attack by Anders Feder which I would not say and is not related to our discussion subject. Any way, thanks, although the page needs more attention. Mhhossein (talk) 14:07, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Could the closing admin please take this conversation about the content of the page into account. Bosstopher (talk) 11:29, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep - This should be kept. It is clearly aimed at Wikipedia and it is for the purposes of improving articles. Mbcap (talk) 02:13, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Could you please say how these attacks may 'clearly' help to improve Wikipedia? نان (talk) 13:31, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * نان Sure, I can elaborate. Paid stooges of the Iranian theocracy are certainly very disruptive to Wikipedia. They are the sort of editors who are fanatical and aim to disrupt the content, tone and balance of articles so that there is a pro-Iranian slant on articles relating to politics and religion. These are the very editors who aim to inject polemic material into Wikipedia. Therefore I am at a loss as to why you have put this up for deletion because the paragraph in question tries to raise awareness about a category of editors who disrupt the Wiki with polemic material. Mbcap (talk) 18:46, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Dear ! Awareness about who? how can one understand that an editor is a member of that category? Even if we suppose there are some such editors, we should also consider that there are many many fanatical editor out there, so do we have to shout that with polemical statements and tag them with inappropriate qualities and attack them? I think raising the awareness is not a suitable justification because one may do that in a more polite manner. Mhhossein (talk) 01:23, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
 * If there is a "more polite" way to raise awareness about the tendentious editing due to you and other Khamenei supporters, you should go ahead and do it. I look forward to your efforts in that area.--Anders Feder (talk) 14:22, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Mhhossein to answer your question, it is raising awareness about stooges of the Iranian theocracy who seek to disrupt Wikipedia by pushing a point of view. They are an immense waste of time. As an example here is a conversation which wasted several hours of life which one simply cannot reclaim. You may still ask "awareness about who" so I shall attempt to enlighten. This is how a basic Khamenei zombie works. He either dedicates his time to politics and religion, or even both. For politics he likes to use PressTV and Fars news, sources which are a laughable at the very least. For religious articles, the Khamenei zombie likes to use http://www.al-islam.org/ which no doubt is run and funded by the Iranian state. In this way the Khamenei zombie can cause disruption to politics related articles and most definitely has destroyed numerous Islam related articles. I would also like to state that this deletion proposal is an absolute waste of time. Work should be focused on the mainspace and not on some users subpage. Mbcap (talk) 07:15, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Mbcap: Read the page more carefully. He said that they were not 'paid stooge' in his opinion! However, I meant to indicate that using inappropriate language is not a suitable way to raise that mentioned 'awareness'. Now, you are acting in a same manner as Feder. Of course, you don't have to waste your time on this thread. Mhhossein (talk) 13:36, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Mhhossein I agree I do not have to waste my time but neither do all the other editors who spend time cleaning up the mess caused by those in question. What is not an appropriate way to behave is polluting Wikipedia articles with bogus sources rather than using sources from Brill publishers or encyclopaedia Iranica. The proposed text for deletion is an entirely appropriate way to raise awareness. May I suggest that you help in rectifying the problem with these polluted mainspace articles. Mbcap (talk) 00:14, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Mbcap Raising awareness is an issue, while how to raise the awareness is another! Mainspace articles are not the subject of our discussion here and I may pay to it in it's place. Mhhossein (talk) 00:49, 27 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete Based on WP:REMOVEUNCIVIL (Removal of personal attacks) some part of it which contains uncivil attributes against a group of the other editors should be deleted. Particularly, "The Happy Iranian" is a promote biased approach against a group of the editors.-- Seyyed(t-c) 07:28, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Should we also delete WP:RS and WP:NPOV because they promote a "biased approach" against "a group of editors", namely POV-pushers who use unreliable sources? Or is it only "groups of editors" covered in my subpage that you are interested in covering for?--Anders Feder (talk) 07:41, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Those policies and guidelines do not accuse any particular group by using phrases such as "The Happy Iranian". Please, read WP:IMPARTIAL carefully.-- Seyyed(t-c) 08:55, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * "Those policies and guidelines do not accuse any particular group" Nor does my user subpage. It describes a source of an immense amount of propagandistic, POV editing in article mainspace. (And WP:IMPARTIAL does not mean that POV editing is acceptable, as I've already explained to you here.)--Anders Feder (talk) 09:49, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, of course. I agree with you that there are some users who do not obey wiki policies and want to promote their own beliefs, however this does not let anyone make Stereotype. For example, there may be some Zionists who want to promote their ideologies, but it is not a good excuse for anyone to write "The Happy Israelis", etc.-- Seyyed(t-c) 11:47, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The page is not "making stereotype". It is describing a class of editors who are causing astronomical amounts of editing time going to waste in cleaning up their disruption on Wikipedia, such as in the incident Mbcap referred to. As for Zionists, they have been dealt with a long time ago, presumably because someone dared and bothered to speak out against them: they are now under general sanctions. Would you support something like that being imposed on Iran-related articles too, in place of the small note on the user subpage you are referring to?--Anders Feder (talk) 12:35, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I think you misunderstood my example. As I know you and we spoke about the issue in the other occasions, you tend to generalize a specific problem and make a general category! You can use a more neutral language in the page.-- Seyyed(t-c) 12:44, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * This is really the crux of the hypocrisy. You want to leave those who agree with you free hands to continue wasting everybody's time and screwing up Wikipedia, while playing the victim at the same time. It does not work like that.--Anders Feder (talk) 13:23, 26 June 2015 (UTC) (back later)
 * All else aside the line about editors shutting their ears and doing ululations is pretty much the epitome of "making a stereotype." I'd have no issues with a page describing the "Happy Israeli" as long as it didn't talk about shutting their ears and drowning out the noise by singing Hava Nagilah. Bosstopher (talk) 13:05, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I would have to completely agree with Bosstopher. The ulutation part could go - but it is absurd to suggest the page as a whole is polemical. Other than that one statement, I don't see a single issue with it. Elspamo4 (talk) 16:34, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I propose to rewrite some parts of the page based on WP:IMPARTIAL.-- Seyyed(t-c) 23:50, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

The comparison with Zionists is nonsensical. I have worked with editors on the Israel page who may be Zionists and I have found that those with whom I have interacted are very professional and abide by Wikipedia policies and guidelines. There is no problem in anyone holding any view, no matter how objectionable it is as long as you leave such views at the door and edit the Wiki within the spirit of building an encyclopaedia. Causing mass disruption to mainspace articles with bogus sources published by propaganda outlets leads to very poor quality articles. There are many such articles and this problem needs to be addressed at a far higher level than the subpage of Anders Feder. Therefore we should be having a discussion on how to address this problem rather than getting Anders Feder to delete a reference that is displeasing to a group of editors. If it is the ululation reference that is the issue here, thought I do not think that is the crux of the problem for the objecting parties, then I would request that said parties attempt to reach a resolution that would be acceptable to all. As for the other parts of the page then I disagree with the suggestion by Seyyed. It should not be altered in anyway unless Anders Feder decides otherwise. Mbcap (talk) 00:05, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Excuse me, but you are not aware of the role of an "example" in an argument. Example is just for simplification of the issue neither the reason nor the proof! So discussion about the example looks funny!!! There are many policies and guidelines which cover what you are concerned about. However, We are ready to discuss and improve the policies against the promoting of the propaganda by anyone not just Iranians or Muslims. Finally, the problem of the Andres Feder's page is stereotyping. -- Seyyed(t-c) 03:05, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Seyyed So for the sake of raising awareness about those promoting propaganda we should in no way delete this subpage. Mbcap (talk) 03:20, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I will change my vote if Andres changes its tone. -- Seyyed(t-c) 07:50, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Proposal for conclusion I think most of us agree to keep the page but improve its tone so that it does not violate WP:IMPARTIAL.-- Seyyed(t-c) 05:35, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment: Another suggestion which might be taken into account by admins. Mhhossein (talk) 13:49, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Seyyed Rubbish. The only thing everyone agrees on is to keep the page as it is. Mbcap (talk) 19:38, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Everyone! I guess you have not read the above discussions!!!-- Seyyed(t-c) 00:42, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Reject proposal for conclusion - your conclusion is totally wrong. Mbcap (talk) 02:30, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.