Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Imagi-King/Steamin' and Dreamin': The Grandmaster Cash Story (2nd nomination)

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 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellaneous page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the discussion was Keep and send to DRV if necessary. Ruslik_ Zero 16:28, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I have listed the userspace draft at Deletion review/Log/2011 May 10. Cunard (talk) 05:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

User:Imagi-King/Steamin' and Dreamin': The Grandmaster Cash Story
MfDs for this page:  Nomination on 19:58, 25 April 2011 (UTC) I quote from the previous nomination: "As an article, this was userfied at AfD, brought back and deleted at AfD2, brought back again, deleted G4 and salted. This userspace copy was nominated for deletion G4, and the nomination contested; I agreed on 22 March to decline the speedy and allow two weeks for it to be improved and taken to DRV, failing which I would bring it here. Nothing has been done; userspace is 'not intended to indefinitely archive your preferred version of disputed or previously deleted content.' JohnCD (talk) 13:45, 8 April 2010 (UTC)" WP:STALEDRAFT states: "Userspace is not a free web host and should not be used to indefinitely host pages that look like articles, old revisions, or deleted content, or your preferred version of disputed content. Private copies of pages that are being used solely for long-term archival purposes may be subject to deletion." Because this page violates WP:NOTWEBHOST and WP:STALEDRAFT, it should be deleted. No improvements to the page have been made since 15 June 2010. Cunard (talk) 19:58, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete for good, at long last. The original article was the root of one of the most contentious multiple-AfD's I have ever been a part of, and I will be so glad to see the last trace of this article gone, once and for all. - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 23:19, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. -- Klein zach  02:55, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete. Sounds reasonable, as it goes against the cited rules. After almost a year, there's been none of the coverage I thought might emerge to improve the case for notability, and the community decided that what's currently there is insufficient. Whilst I'm not sure my personal opinion quite agrees with the community consensus, it's the latter of these two that counts after all. I'd rather forgotten this draft was still here, to be honest. Let's say goodbye. Baron Ronan Doyle (Sprechen mit mir) 10:10, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment. Just reviewing the old discussions there (all 1,000,000 of them), I noticed a comment from Alzarian16: "I want to see this kept as I believe the coverage justifies its inclusion, but without eveidence of the sources other keep votes will be difficult to come by". I actually located scans of the articles a number of months after the AfD discussions, but never got around to uploading them. I can upload them now if we think that's worth doing. It's up to you guys, I'm not overly drawn toward one side or the other. Baron Ronan Doyle (Sprechen mit mir) 10:54, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Please upload the sources as I asked you to do in May 2010 at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Steamin' and Dreamin': The Grandmaster Cash Story (4th nomination). If the sources enable the film to pass Notability, then the page should not be deleted. Once you have uploaded the sources, please add them to the article and list all of the sources here. Please choose no more than 4 sources and then explain which publications the sources come from, the depth of coverage, and why the sources establish notability. If you can convince me or any other participant that the sources establish notability, I would not be opposed to relisting this at DRV to see if the article should be recreated. If DRV concludes that the sources do not establish notability, this page should be deleted due to the numerous chances it has had. Cunard (talk) 23:12, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, scans of all articles now available on my user draft, as well as two new sources, also scanned. Excluding screening listings, blog references, and the film festival's site from consideration, that gives us nine sources to consider. This article, from the Evening Echo, considers the film in relation to its ticket sales success against major attractions such as A Serious Man and The Road, devoting publication space to it rather than the two far larger productions. This contains a review of the film from the same newspaper, devoting a full page to public reactions and comments and comparing it favourably to a classic of its genre. This is significant coverage of the film from TG4, a national broadcaster, a testament to its success in a wider, non-local context. Finally, this article from Hot Press gives the film the main focus of a collective article, bringing coverage of it to an international level, as well as a further positive review, identifying the film's creators as people worth watching in the filmmaking community. As well as these four asked for, there is coverage from The Kerryman, further evidence of a wider appeal and interest, a multi-page spread in The Cork News, and the front cover of an issue of Play. And that's all I have. I await your opinions. Baron Ronan Doyle (Sprechen mit mir) 02:49, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Not enough for me, still. Unless I'm reading it incorrectly, the second link isn't even close to a full page, at least not the part about this film. The TV clip is still not what I would call significant, and the Hot Press article mentions the film as a small part. It still boils down to the fact that the author is writing about a small, non-notable film in which he is closely involved. Don't restore this to article space. - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 03:30, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The second link is a full page; the scan it links to is just half the page. The other half can be seen here. Baron Ronan Doyle (Sprechen mit mir) 11:00, 27 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Baron Ronan Doyle, thank you for scanning and uploading the sources. I have reviewed each of them to assess whether they enable the film to pass Notability. Analysis of the sources in the article:  1. http://steviegblog.blogspot.com/2009/05/i-like-film-tonight-with-grandmaster.html – this Blogspot source contains a YouTube video, which is a copy of the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fArScum8ORw. The YouTube video description states: "Cork-based hip-hop artist Grandmaster Cash presents his own movie review show, 'Film Tonight'. In this episode, Cash reviews '28 Days Later', 'The Last Samurai' and '2 Fast 2 Furious'." As a video produced by an individual involved in the film, this source cannot be used to establish notability. 2. http://lennyslogbook.blogspot.com/2009/10/picture-of-week-fck-moo-add-caption-for.html – this blog post cannot be used to establish notability because it does not meet the criteria at Identifying reliable sources, especially the section with the shortcut WP:USERGENERATED. In the event that the article is restored to mainspace, I recommend removing this source and the content sourced to it. 3. http://davemacontheblog.blogspot.com/2009/10/serious-man-director-ethan-joel-coen.html – this source contains the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWXsiTkVkHA&feature=player_embedded, which is titled: "Steamin' + Dreamin': The Grandmaster Cash Story - Official Trailer (Uncensored)". The official trailer of the film is not a third-party reliable source and therefore cannot be used to establish notability. 4. http://www.corkfilmfest.org/2009/films/341/steamin-dreamin-the-grandmaster-cash-story – this description of the film, from Cork Film Fest, was published at around November 2009. The content is: "Steamin + Dreamin: The Grandmaster Cash Story is the controversial and moving tale of a struggling young Cork musician. This film brings us into the world of Cork hip-hop, its bitter rivalries, and the people behind the profanity. Our guide is YouTube sensation and Cork's most infamous rapper, Grandmaster Cash. A Rochestown native, this man courts controversy at every turn. Through a series of shocking and hilarious interviews, we learn about his dreams and frustrations -and why Cork means so much to him. We hear opinions from key figures in the local music and political scenes, and reach some fascinating conclusions about the nature of hip-hop culture." This content, while secondary, is not sufficient in establishing notability. The Cork Film Fest had a vested interest in ensuring that the film had an appreciable number of attendees. 5. http://www.corkfilmfest.org/2009/pages/136/festival-club/ – a directory listing of all the films showcased by the festival. This page contains much of the same content as in #4. The differences are the addition of the dates and times that the film was to be viewed, as well as the contact information for the producer of the film. 6. http://www.corkfilmfest.org/2009/films/433/2nd-viewing-announced-the-grandmaster-cash-story – the page contains the same content as #4. 7. http://www.nationalsculpturefactory.com/external_program_current.htm#Steamin’_+_Dreamin’:_The_Grandmaster_Cash_Story – a dead link, the source contained a list of the films' screening dates and times. Because of the lack of commentary about the films, it cannot be used to establish notability. 8. http://www.flickr.com/photos/62197803@N04/5659431691/in/photostream (archiveurl) – though being mentioned on the cover of a publication, Cork entertainment magazine Play, does not, in and of itself, establish notability, it does indicate that the magazine has featured the film. 9.  – the source states: "THE spotlight is shone on the unlikely world of Cork hip-hop in this mockumentary following Rochestown rapper Grandmaster Cash courting controversy at every turn while struggling to get an audience and protecting his 'hood against his arch rivals in Carrigaline. It's just like the east coast versus the west cost [sic] but with no access to guns. Grandmaster Cash looks like it could be extremely funny." The film's discussion is on the sidebar of page 9 of the newspaper, right beside an article titled: "Local flavour to spice up film festival: Gareth Naughton talks to Cork Film Festival director Mick Hannigan". While this secondary source negligibly adds to the film's notability, it does not meet the criteria established at Notability. Two sentences cannot be considered "significant coverage". 10.  – seven sentences long, the article can perhaps be considered "significant coverage". However, this source appears to be a close paraphrasing of #4. I don't consider this source to be enough to establish notability. 11.  – the source states: "However, they may all be outshone by mockumentary Steamin' & Dreamin': The Grandmaster Cash Story, at the Pavilion, 8:30pm, which is set to be the funniest film at this year's festival. Shining a spotlight on the competitive world of hip-hop in Cork, Steamin' & Dreamin': The Grandmaster Cash Story gives you the inside track on the hopes and fears of the city's most notorious rapper Grand Master Flash and highlights shocking gang rivalries between the Rochestown and Carrigaline crews." The source gives valuable background information, though the author does not seem very familiar with the film. I believe that this source, like #9, marginally adds to the film's notability. 12.  – seven paragraphs long, this paragraph establishes notability. The author appears to be much better versed in the topic than #11 and has given some historical background about the film: its origins, its plot, and analysis such as "the film manages to parody the loonier elements of Cork's hip-hop scene, while celebrating it lovingly at the same time'" Of the 12 sources so far, this is the best one. 13.  – at the side of a larger article discussing the Cork film fest and three sentences long, this source provides analysis about the film: "Before people start worrying about the prospect of turf wars and drive-by shooting Steamin' And Dreamin', the film chronicling this Leeside Jay-Z and Nas pairing, is as authentic as Spinal Tap, and pretty funny with it too" The author appears to be well versed with the film. I consider this source to add to the film's notability. 14.  – save for the first and final paragraphs, this article consists of commentary from the leading character of the film. Because it is mostly a primary account, the source cannot be used to establish notability. 15. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WlMRbZCgWg – the in-depth secondary analysis provided in this clip from TG4 is from a national source. I consider this source to be the "significant coverage" required by Notability. 16.  – the source states: "The work of sociology student-turned-filmmaker Seamus Kelly, the action focuses on a 25-year-old lad from Roco – “For those of you who don't know, that's a place where even fuckin' lawmen won't go in case they get knifed, or their fuckin' tyres sliced' – who rechristens himself Grandmaster Cash after falling in love with 2Pac, and then sets about reprezentin' his 'hood with raps like 'Bitch Be Pure Steamin, 'Out of Me Mind' and, ahem, 'The Quest For Clit'. It's only when Caught In The Net saw Grandmaster Cash taking on Wossy with his own Film Tonight review show that we realised the whole thing's a glorious spoof, which features cameos from Tommy Tiernan and Green Party politician Dan Boyle.  After making such a spot-on parody with zero budget, it'll be interesting to see what Steamin' + Dreamin's real director, Shaun O'Connor, gets up to next." Three paragraphs long, with history and analysis about the film, this source is, I believe, the "significant coverage" required by Notability. Though informally written, this seems to be Hot Presss style. 17. http://www.corkgigs.com/archive/09/12/ – a listing of events, tantamount to a directory listing, does not establish notability. Directory entries do not establish notability because they are not as calculated and selective as sources that purposefully delve into a specific topic. 18. http://www.citylocal.ie/Cork/events-in-Cork/STEAMIN--DREAMIN--THE-GRANDMASTER-CASH-STORYDVD-LAUNCH-3797/ – this webpage, which sells tickets, is like a directory listing. See #17. 19. Steamin' and Dreamin': The Grandmaster Cash Story DVD (2009) – the film's DVD is not a secondary source.  While many of the sources here are trivial mentions, directory listings, and primary sources, there are three quality sources. The article from The Kerryman (#12), the feature from TG4 (#15), and the article in Hot Press (#16) are nontrivial secondary coverage about the film. Because these sources provide historical background about the origins of the film and analyses about the film's cultural relevance, they are of sufficient depth to fulfill the requirements at Notability.  Close this MfD as keep and relist the draft at Deletion review.''' Cunard (talk) 08:41, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep and list at DRV for further discussion on mainspace possibilities. If consensus is against it after than then deletion would be reasonable, but as Cunard's analysis demonstrates there are three or four sources here that go some way to establishing notability, most of which weren't available to view last time it was discussed. Alzarian16 (talk) 11:42, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep and send to WP:DRV I just wish it didn't take a MfD to get the sourcing for this draft improved at long last. Anyway, it's been improved substantially at this point, and I think a case could be made that this would survive in mainspace. Listing at DRV is the next logical step. A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 00:36, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.