Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Mender/Userboxes/BritishNationalism (2nd nomination)

 __NOINDEX__
 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellaneous page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the discussion was:  keep. ‑Scottywong | confer _ 06:00, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

User:Mender/Userboxes/BritishNationalism


Not sure if it's good etiquette to renominate so soon after the last nomination, but I believe I have a jolly good reason for doing so. Since the last nomination, the essay WP:NONAZIS appeared. It that's even remotely reflective of consensus, then merely having this on your userpage could potentially lead to a block or other sanctions (although it doesn't specify a type of nationalism, people seem to assume that nationalism/nationalist without further context always means ethnic nationalism or racial nationalism). Adam9007 (talk) 18:49, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep - As explained in British nationalism, the ideology of this userbox can be either positive or negative, and we can keep userboxes that can be seen as promoting a mixed view that can be positive. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:38, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
 * It's actually a huge relief to hear you say that: I thought it was just me being naïve. But as I said, many (most?) would assume (and indeed, have assumed) negative. I don't know what (if anything) the creator meant for this to mean, but I think the fact that it can be easily interpreted as a Neo-Nazi userbox (as I discovered at great cost to my reputation here) is reason enough to get rid of it. It can cause a lot of headache for those who use it to mean positive. Adam9007 (talk) 18:33, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment - British nationalism certainly has to be twisted to be neo-Nazi. Hundreds of thousands of British lives were lost in the fight against Nazism.  The negative connotations that I see to British nationalism have very little to do with Nazism, and have to do with colonialism and with Ireland.  Robert McClenon (talk) 22:04, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
 * A bit of a backstory: this userbox was deemed to be a white supremacist userbox by an admin (I won't say who, but another admin (again, I won't say who) agreed with him), who of course treated me as such. Even to this day, there are editors who seem to believe that I am a racist purely because I once had this userbox on my userpage. You see the problem with this userbox now? (the problem is only made worse by the WP:NONAZIS essay, and having this userbox can very quickly make you a lot of enemies (it's made me at least 2), which makes it an unsuitable userbox IMHO) Adam9007 (talk) 22:51, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Reluctant Keep as long as political userboxes are allowed at all. I do not think any politics should be allowed on user pages as it's inherently divisive and disruptive. I don't buy the "false equivalency" arguments though. If a user is allowed to indicate support of communism which allegedly has many victims, other points of view that are not advocacy of genocide or the like should be allowed. Otherwise it's a slippery slope to banning unpopular ideologies without a clear rule for which to keep and which to allow. From WP:User pages ("Acts of violence" includes all forms of violence, but does not include mere statements of support for controversial groups or regimes that some may interpret as an encouragement of violence.) There is a difference between "I am a proud American" and "I support the genocide of Native Americans". If this particular ideology were barred, would support for Brexit which is closely related also be barred? Under the current rules as worded, you can have an "I support Israel", "I support Palestine", "I support the Israeli army" and "I support the PLO" userbox. made the poor choice of using what is an admittedly disreputable type of ideology. "Enemies" could come from any sort of political userbox. Don't put them on your page, it's not so relevant to the project. —DIYeditor (talk) 23:54, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
 * The problem with this userbox is that it doesn't specify a type of nationalism. There's no way to know if it's used to mean civic nationalism, cultural nationalism, or some other type of nationalism. Unfortunately, too many people automatically equate nationalism with racism. I fear what happened to me will happen again to someone using this innocently. If this is to be kept, maybe a warning should be put on it? Adam9007 (talk) 00:50, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
 * If it needed a warning it would probably need to be removed. Unlike a (neo-)Nazi userbox, this one is not a threat of violence so horrifying that almost everyone in the world would be directly disturbed. It's "on you" not to do foolish things on your user page or bring yourself into disrepute. Are you honestly saying you weren't aware of the possible implications of nationalism before you added that? —DIYeditor (talk) 01:47, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, As pointed out above, British nationalism doesn't necessarily mean white supremacy. I naïvely assumed people would not assume racism unless there's evidence to suggest so (there wasn't and isn't). But, as you know, I was wrong. Adam9007 (talk) 01:59, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Personally I would lose respect for someone with this userbox regardless of why they put it there or what type of nationalism they meant. Doesn't matter much whether they are against immigration or have an inflated sense of national pride. Also I would think they didn't have much common sense for labeling themself that way, so such an editor is not likely to be reliable. "This user is proud to be British" would be nearly as dumb, to me. However, again, it doesn't rise to the level of an implicit threat of racial violence like a Nazi userbox would. It's fairly innocuous in that regard. —DIYeditor (talk) 02:09, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep An essay is not policy, as the big disclaimer on top of essays points out. Also I am going to repost what I said in other political userbox MfD: Political expression must be treated universally. Either ban all kinds of political expression or allow them all. Merely listing ones political stance is not a polemic. Offense is subjective and cannot be the standard for a decision like this. --Hecato (talk) 12:46, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.