Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Tol/Template/Gender

 __NOINDEX__
 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellaneous page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the discussion was:  keep. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 18:49, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

User:Tol/Template/Gender

 * – (View MfD) &#8203;
 * CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 04:54, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Blatantly unnecessary and discriminatory towards non-binary people. Duplicates Gender. See also TfD Templates_for_discussion/Log/2021_May_15. Casspedia ( talk )  17:25, 22 May 2021 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Keep as creator. I didn't realise that Pronoun could do this when I created it, but my template is still useful (and doesn't require specifying usage of "or" constructions). Is there any policy or guideline which would suggest deletion of this? All I can find in the user pages guideline is that it should not host Very divisive or offensive material not related to encyclopedia editing (WP:POLEMIC). It's related to encyclopedia editing (albeit for talk pages) and I'd argue it's not divisive or offensive. If somebody requests that I not use it (or states a preference for singular they), I won't use it. In this case it's use could be offensive, but so could many templates depending on how they are used. This is similar to the aforementioned TfD nomination, but it's even in userspace. Userspace is more lax, and I don't think there is even consensus to delete (!votes are 6 to merge/replace/delete, 4 to keep, 4 alternative merge, and some other proposed solutions) for something in template space. Tol &#124; Talk &#124; Contribs 17:48, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom, not suitable for userspace as it's unnecessarily divisive and discriminatory. —Locke Cole • t • c 18:01, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Also, consider this page: —Locke Cole • t • c 18:06, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * That is an opinion; my opinion differs. It greatly depends on the person being referred to. I prefer others to refer to me as "he or she"; some other person may prefer "they". MediaWiki's gender system only has male, female, and unspecified — it's up to individual users to decide how to handle unspecified gender, which could refer to somebody preferring "they", somebody preferring "he or she", or something else (who knows?). Tol &#124; Talk &#124; Contribs 18:14, 22 May 2021 (UTC) Though, to be clear, I do think that calling people "it" is somewhat dehumanising. Tol &#124; Talk &#124; Contribs 18:15, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * (Thanks for signing my comment; I usually use the reply tool which signs for me.) I'll follow up with the text of WP:POLEMIC ("Very divisive or offensive material not related to encyclopedia editing") and some comments:
 * Polemical statements unrelated to Wikipedia, or statements attacking or vilifying groups of editors, persons, or other entities (these are generally considered divisive and removed, and reintroducing them is often considered disruptive).
 * This is related to Wikipedia. It serves a purpose (for talk pages and other templates) which serves to help me communicate with other users on Wikipedia.
 * Material that can be viewed as attacking other editors, including the recording of perceived flaws. The compilation of factual evidence (diffs) in user subpages, for purposes such as preparing for a dispute resolution process, is permitted provided it will be used in a timely manner.
 * I suppose this could be viewed as attacking other editors. However, I believe this point is mainly against recording material to attack a specific editor. It also depends heavily on use; I do not use it to use non-preferred pronouns (and nobody has requested me to stop, but I would if somebody did).
 * Sincerely, Tol &#124; Talk &#124; Contribs 18:10, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete - can we stop hyping up social issues and stick with arguments per WP:AGF? The main deletion argument here is that the template duplicates Gender, nothing more and nothing less. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:10, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * @Knowledgekid87: It does not duplicate Gender — my template allows for grammatically better "x or y" constructions, while Gender does not. If anything, it duplicates Pronoun, but Pronoun requires  for "or" constructions, which mine does automatically. The user pages guideline does not have anything discouraging duplicate or similar templates, but it explicitly allows trial pages for templates, unfamiliar or specialist markup (including LaTeX), etc., as a kind of personal sandbox. Tol &#124; Talk &#124; Contribs 23:15, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete. Duplicates a template (at least one). If you wish to make other templates better, suggest improvements on their pages instead of creating duplicates. --Gonnym (talk) 12:36, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete - duplicates pronoun, and our gender pronoun templates are already a (sometimes offensive) mess; we don't need more templates confounding that problem. Ivanvector's squirrel (trees/nuts) 15:42, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep. Hilarious that we're now banning people from using the pronouns that they want to in the interests of inclusivity. I fail to understand why a user can't create his or her own template so that he or she can identify with the pronouns that he or she chooses instead of using the singular "they". The template also doesn't use the pronouns "it" or "he-she" so I fail to see how that's an issue. Saying "he or she" isn't the same as "he-she". This doesn't duplicate existing templates as the existing templates don't allow for a user to identify as "he or she". It's also strange that we're now banning even an implication of belief in the gender binary on the English Wikipedia; are we deleting userboxes that states ones belief in a religion that believes in the gender binary? That God created man and women? Yin and yang? Chess (talk) (please use&#32; on reply) 23:01, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
 * pronoun does allow the author to specify either singular they or "he or she" formulations by a switch in the code. produces "" while  produces "", for example. The nominated template is the one that prevents the use of one set of pronouns, not the existing template. Ivanvector's squirrel (trees/nuts) 16:33, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep as while it does appear to duplicate functionality of pronoun, WP:UP allows trial pages for templates, unfamiliar or specialist markup (including LaTeX), etc., as a kind of personal sandbox. —  csc -1 01:51, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 04:54, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep nothing wrong with users having "templates" in their user-space to duplicate those in main-space e.g. for experimentation. Elli (talk &#124; contribs) 19:18, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep there's nothing wrong with an experimental/personal page in userspace duplicating something in another namespace, it's fine for such pages to be "unnecessary", and I don't buy the argument that we should force people to use singular they.  Hut 8.5  16:44, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep as use of "he/she" (etc.) has not been deprecated on internal Wikipedia pages, not yet at least, and people would be better weighing in at Wikipedia talk:Gender-neutral language. In any case, the mere existence of the template is not a violation of even any such proposed deprecations. "He-she" is very different to "he/she" constructions as it implies a person is both, not (an unknown) one or the other. However, I agree that these "he/she" constructions are not gender neutral and would advise anybody not to use them. — Bilorv ( talk ) 18:32, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep - per Chess and others. In my view this nomination amounts to thought policing. Crossroads -talk- 04:59, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.