Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:UBX/pro-NK

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 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellaneous page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the discussion was:  no consensus.  —&#8288;Scotty Wong &#8288;— 17:25, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

User:UBX/pro-NK

 * – (View MfD) &#8203;

WP:NONAZIS, the DPRK has one of the worst human rights records on the planet and everything it stands for is in direct opposition to the values of freedom and human dignity that Wikimedia strives to promote. Edit: As Plutonical has pointed out, the regime is also racist, a stronger case of WP:NONAZIS Dronebogus (talk) 23:43, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:38, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
 * You didn’t explain why. This isn’t a ballot. Dronebogus (talk) 11:46, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
 * You’re overreaching. Wikipedia does not take a position against national governments. SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:44, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Um, how is it overreacting to suggest a user supporting a government that seems to be based on Nineteen Eighty-Four is a violation of WP:NONAZIS, WP:UCOC, and WP:UBX (“inflammatory or divisive”)? If Wikipedia doesn’t take a position on national governments why have Neo-Confederate boxes been deleted? Why have Neo-British Imperialism boxes been deleted? After all, they’re “only” supporting the government and not whatever atrocities the government engaged in! This isn’t a matter of what “Wikipedia the organization” thinks, it’s a matter of what “Wikipedia the community” thinks. Dronebogus (talk) 00:12, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
 * This is about making moral judgements in userspace. This is dangerous territory for the perceived neutrality of Wikipedia. I think the line to not cross is to make overt judgements on the morality of a current internationally recognised national government.  The other examples are in the past. SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:22, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The North Korean government is still pretty universally hated among governments for its appalling human rights record. I feel like if you’re endorsing it you’re trying to be an edgelord, and if you’re serious you’re probably someone who would fit the spirit of WP:NONAZIS. I mean, the Taliban is broadly recognized as the current ruling government of Afghanistan, but that doesn’t mean we have to tolerate a pro-Taliban Userbox. Dronebogus (talk) 06:14, 15 February 2022 (UTC) Dronebogus (talk) 06:12, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Edgelord? There has to be a boundary, and edge cases are ugly.  I don't want to be seen to endorse it, I prefer to say that Wikipedia should be silent on user's putting up this one.  I'm open to an RfC to discuss all political userboxes.  You are probing for an edge, and I have responded "keep" on this one.
 * A difference between the NK and the Taliban:
 * The article Foreign relations of Afghanistan says: "...and no country has recognised the new regime."
 * Foreign relations of North Korea shows lots of countries recognising North Korea. Not including the USA, but an awful lot.
 * This is a can or worms. How many nations recognise Taiwan?  More than do North Korea. SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:24, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The Taliban is stated to be accepted as the de facto government of Afghanistan, which is what I meant by “broadly recognized”, but that’s not really here nor there. Dronebogus (talk) 08:45, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
 * This is not a moral issue. North Korea uses racist concepts like Koreans being a pure race, and "dangerous racial contamination" in its propaganda. This is a valid issue per WP:NONAZIS as people using this userbox may have collaboration problems with non-koreans. Hell, this is more valid than the Stalin userbox deletion, as at least Stalin wasn't openly racist and whether the holodomor was ethnically targeted is still a subject of debate (meaning someone with that userbox is still not likely to be a racist, as their viewpoint could be different). ☢️Plutonical☢️  ᶜᵒᵐᵐᵘⁿᶦᶜᵃᵗᶦᵒⁿˢ  12:59, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Weak Delete - This is about making moral judgments in userspace. Some moral judgments in userspace result in battlegrounds in user space.  Robert McClenon (talk) 04:47, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep.--WaltCip- (talk)  14:04, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah, yes, another no-argument voter. Dronebogus (talk) 14:13, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
 * No argument needs to be made. The deletion argument for this is not based in policy. WaltCip- (talk)  14:48, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
 * How about WP:UBX “inflammatory or divisive” and the WP:UCOC as explained by Plutonical below? Dronebogus (talk) 01:08, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete. This is not an overreach of WP:NONAZIS. Supporting the government of a country known for using narratives of "pure races" and "racial contamination" means the user is somewhat likely to have collaboration issues with users of non-korean ethnicity. ☢️Plutonical☢️  ᶜᵒᵐᵐᵘⁿᶦᶜᵃᵗᶦᵒⁿˢ  19:22, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep As I observed, there are quite a number of North Korea sympathizer in countries like South Korea and Japan, not because they endorse brutal actions by the North Korean government, but because they have firm and ignorant believe in North Korea is actually a good country, that bad reports against the state all over the world are merely propaganda effort. C933103 (talk) 11:58, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Your argument is solid and reasonable, but I’d recommend you reconsider based on Plutonical‘s strong case that the NK government is not only an ideologically extremist regime but also a patently racist one, which is a gross violation of WP’s conduct policies. Dronebogus (talk) 12:03, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I see, then I can support the deletion of this template. But, would it be more useful to leave this template as such, and conduct action against users who use such templates?C933103 (talk) 14:37, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * If I may chime in, templates aren't supposed to be used to fish for problem users. We don't look for trouble where there is none, and keeping a userbox which would create such trouble (especially in the case of editors who simply don't know better and probably won't run afoul of the No Nazis policy) is exactly that. ☢️Plutonical☢️  ᶜᵒᵐᵐᵘⁿᶦᶜᵃᵗᶦᵒⁿˢ  15:04, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Weak keep. I see a slippery slope here, regarding deleting a userbox supporting a certain country's government. If we're going to start with a specific country, the DPRK would probably be the one to start with (hence the "weak" here), but where do we draw the line? Myanmar? Syria? Iran? The People's Republic of China? Israel or Palestine or both? A certain great power that might be about to invade a neighboring country? I really doubt that anyone saying they support the DPRK government is proceeding in good faith, but I also don't want to open the door to "Anyone who supports the Israeli government is endorsing genocide" and "Anyone who supports the Palestinian government is endorsing terrorism" getting shot back and forth at MfD. As an aside, this was not a template usefied as part of the Great Userbox Migration, and as such should not be a subpage of . If kept, move it to its creator's userspace. --  Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she/they) 07:06, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.