Wikipedia:Notability/Noticeboard/Archive 12

Kalistick
That article reads like an advertisement. Many references are in French, so I can't judge the notability from that and others are just link to the homepage of that company. RealLink (talk) 08:38, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

The Potter's School article
The Potter's School has been PROD'ed since 2 November (11 months!) under WP:GNG. There is something that might generously be considered a notability assertion (though I am not convinced of the article's notability by it) and one reference...to the school's Facebook page. Can an admin take a look at it, and if they agree with the PROD, delete it? Wabbott9  Tell me about it....  02:32, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Galen Medical Journal (GMJ)
www.gmj.ir

Galen Medical Journal (GMJ) is the Official Publication of the Student Research Committee of Fasa University of Medical Sciences. The Journal is approved by the Iranian National Ministry of Health and Medical Education.

GMJ will consider all types of scientific papers for publication. Conference proceedings will be published electronically as a supplement issue or in the form of abstract book and all requests from biomedical conferences are welcome. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Draak110 (talk • contribs) 14:16, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Karen Gillard
Should we consider delete of this page. She was a candidate for election in 2010 and has done little of note either before or after this event. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pmcgarryuk (talk • contribs) 12:59, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Enzina Fuschini
I have recently flagged the article Enzina Fuschini with a notability box, which the writer of that article has immediately removed. I have posted a long and detailed argument that the subject of this article is not notable (per WP:N) on Talk:Enzina Fuschini and would very much welcome input from other people. I won't repeat my arguments here because they're too lengthy. Thanks. 82.71.0.229 (talk) 07:49, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
 * It looks self written with weak sources. I posted in talk and added a notice. Maybe nominate for deletion? Lexlex (talk) 03:18, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks like another editor picked this one up and it has been well pared of its significant non referenced material and nominated for deletion. I have a feeling it's going away soon. Lexlex (talk) 03:13, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Amanda Seales
Hi. I put a coi template on this BLP article because I didn't know what else to do. I noticed the main contributor has the same name though, and it looks like "self promotion" and "NPOV" with no third party sources. I've been reading the guidelines about BLPs, and citing sources, but I'm kinda lost in all the details. I did a google search, but can't tell if she's "notable" or not. Please, if anyone can help me I'd appreciate it. I seem to have gotten more bogged down in the rules, and complicated code that I loose my train of thought. lol If I've overstepped, please forgive me. I want to learn, so give me a shout out and tell me how I could have done better. thx RupJana (talk) 21:23, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
 * This has been heavily pared down by other editors since your post. Check the page again. Lexlex (talk) 04:18, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Adam McDaniel
I tried to find third-party articles about writer Adam McDaniel, but I found none, especially in Google News. So I wonder if stability of a Wiki-article about him is possible. Official website: http://adammcdaniel.com/. --George Ho (talk) 04:00, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
 * References are required. A self published web page doesn't qualify. Lexlex (talk) 04:14, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Tallahassee wiki
There is a local wiki where I live called TallahasseeWiki. It has about 430 articles (more coming every day). It is a major resource locally. Would it be considered notable? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Astropiloto (talk • contribs) 21:41, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Neil Paterson (politician)
This person ran for office on a third party ticket but was never elected. So he doesn't appear to be notable per WP:POLITICIAN. However he has received some minor mentions in several sources which are summarized here on the talk page. Does he deserve a stand alone article? Or should he be merged into the article on the Natural Law Party? Any comments? -- — Keithbob • Talk  • 18:54, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
 * It seems self written and maintained. A prod has never been attempted, so let's try that first and see who complains - if anyone. Lexlex (talk) 03:06, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks for your help.-- — Keithbob • Talk  • 23:47, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Today the PROD was removed and an AfD was recommended instead. Thoughts?-- — Keithbob • Talk  • 16:15, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, that's what's supposed to happen if someone disagrees. Now, if you feel that it should be deleted, nominate it by following instructions here: Articles for deletion. A discussion will take place and you'll have your answer. Lexlex (talk) 19:56, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks Lex. I think the notability is questionable and was wondering what others thought. Was hoping to get some feedback here. Do you have an opinion on the notability? That would help me to decide whether I should take it to AfD or not. Thanks again, -- — Keithbob • Talk  • 14:56, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Bhikshu Satyapala
The article and the Deletion Discussion lists references for the notability of the subject. I believe that considering WP:BIAS for a non US or European loccation, this person would be as Notable as any other philosopher or scholar-Wikishagnik (talk) 03:05, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Relevance of Anatoly Wasserman as an entry in the en version of Wikepedia
Anatoly_Wasserman Wasserman's fame is predominantly based on postulating the non-existence of Ukraine or the Ukrainian language. His internet presence and media interviews virtually entirely revolve around this subject therefore, if he is considered to be substantive enough a figure to have an entry in en Wikipedia, it is essential that the reason for his high profile be elaborated on.

Such a move (being to broach the object of his fame/infamy) as a controversial figure is dangerous ground. I am convinced, however, that sans elucidation on this context and content, Wasserman is irrelevant to the English speaking world. He already has entries in both Ukrainian and Russian for those who are acquainted with issues surrounding Russophile ideology/propaganda, Russophobia, Ukrainophobia, etc. Wasserman's being a participant in gameshows and other incidentals certainly don't qualify him for an English entry. At best, the Wikipedia entry should read as Wasserman's being a regional minor celebrity, but I would suggest that the English entry be deleted entirely.

It should also be noted that the entry has been pulled by a bot and is, therefore, awkward to read in English. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:16, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
 * All references are in Russian. His claim to notability seems to be primarily that he appeared on a game show. A prod has never been attempted. This seems like a candidate. Lexlex (talk) 03:09, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
 * You may want to jump in the deletion discussion. Many vocal supporters. I don't get it. Articles_for_deletion/Anatoly_Wasserman Lexlex (talk) 19:44, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Afd is over. Result was Keep. Quite a few supporters it seems, just a poorly written/translated article. Some say they will clean it up. Lexlex (talk) 15:31, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Jonathan Mover
Jonathan Mover reads like a promotional brochure, and I am not seeing much in the way of notability here. I've heard that sometimes people in a minor role point to a Wiki article as having "arrived". It's really poorly written, but I am not sure it can be fixed by copyediting - there'd be so little left after trimming. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 20:25, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Still waiting for some feedback...
 * In future add tag to get the conversation going on the article's talk page and get the editors to fix whatever may be the problem. I have done so as the sources are weak. You can do this too! Lexlex (talk) 03:39, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Did not know that. Thanks for helping out, Lexlex. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 05:52, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Page has been redirected to Alice Cooper by another editor. Lexlex (talk) 15:30, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Jethro Rothe-Kushel
I nominate Jethro Rothe-Kushel for deletion. This biography was written primarily by a couple of anonymous IPs and one user (User talk:Mmokay) who has written only this article (Contribs). While well written and fleshed out, none of the sources listed seem pass muster at all - with no news articles on the subject and just IMDB listings of unreleased films or regional TV shows, links to college alumni organizations, and a trade magazine summary that doesn't mention the subject. On its face it seems like blatant self promotion as well as anon IP sock puppeting. Lexlex (talk) 15:53, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
 * You'll want to make an entry at Articles for Deletion. Livewireo (talk) 14:48, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'll first try a prod before wasting time. It was created by an anon and hasn't been touched in months. Nothing really links to it.Lexlex (talk) 03:12, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Anon came back and removed prod without saying anything. I went through and removed unsourced content, which was most of it. Seems like a pretty clear candidate for Afd now. Lexlex (talk) 15:29, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Rashmi Singh (author) Afd
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ananyaprasad/Rashmi_Singh

Please see and tell me, why this was deleted, when it has 3-4 very reliable sources. Many articles on Wiki don't even have one.Ananyaprasad (talk) 06:46, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
 * It isn't deleted. It's a user page that is active. Lexlex (talk) 15:26, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
 * And a page for the person does exist at the moment Rashmi Singh. Whoops, wrong Rashmi. The relavent AfD is here. a13ean (talk) 16:02, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Notability of low-quality and predatory journals
Some enterprising entrepreneurs have started low-quality "open access" scientific journals, which operate primarily by accepting any paper (occasionally including randomly generated ones) submitted to them for heavy publishing fees. These journals are monitored by some academic librarians, and one publishes a running list of them. One user here has taken it upon themselves to tag any articles here for journals on that list. Looking at them, it seems that for most, the only references to these journals which might satisfy notability are people complaining about how crappy or predatory they are. Is it fair to say that this can't be used to establish notability? This is somewhat compounded by the fact that several of them are written like adverts. I will start proding the worst of these if no one objects. a13ean (talk) 16:00, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Scottdale Nyeti
EARLY LIFE

SCOTTDALE NYETI was born in Calabar, but that is not the true fact of him. He is the third child in the family of Mr. & Mrs. Scottdale Nathaniel. He Schooled in Light Of The World Nursery School, Bellarine Peninsula, Scotland. At the age of 11 he was sent to Nigeria to complete is High School Education, when he made up his mind, he travelled for Lagos to his Brother’s house but his brother decided to introduce him to way of life compared to people staying in LAGOS CITY. His stayed at Lagos was nothing to write home about, he decided to return and travelled to Calabar were he stayed with his friend in search of a sustaining job. Two weeks later on his stayed in Calabar, as God could work his way, he mate a class mate who know him as one of the intelligence students in his days in school back at Light Of The World Nursery School, he ask him what he is doing in Calabar thinking he is one of the biggest man in the State.

EDUCATION

During his stay at High School in Nigeria, where he won so many awards in inter-school competitions so he was given a scholarship to study free in his O level. It was there he acknowledge that lifestyle can elevate a man’s life. Scottdale lived a life of no return, Patent Office, and in his spare time, he produced much of his remarkable work and in 2010 he was appointed Private docent in Calabar. He always appeared to have a clear view of the problems of Life and the determination to solve them. He had a strategy of his own and was able to visualize the main stages on the way to his goal. He regarded his major achievements as mere stepping-stones for the next advancement. He schooled at Light of the World Nursery School (nursery education), Belmont High School and graduated at Government Technical College, as one of the best students in Physics and Biology. At the start of his Logical approach and wisdom led him to sing about the love that was endowed with no exasperation which does not pick up infuriation with both parties. He dealt with classical problems of statistical mechanics and problems in which they were merged with Quantum Theory: this led to an explanation of the Brownian movement of molecules. He investigated the thermal properties of light with a low Radiation density and his observations laid the foundation of the Photon theory of light.

MUSIC CAREER

Scottdale Nyeti started out with a couple of early collaborations with some underground artists and was a back-up singer for WONDAEKID MENY. He was featured in an unreleased video by YUNG KING S, a rap group based in Calabar. 1][2 His first major hit was the song "SUPA LOVE" an account of the 1999 WHICH ILLUSTRATED THE LOVE THAT EXISTED IN PAST BEFORE LOVE WAS CHANGE TO PASSION FOR SOUL.

Scottdale Nyeti is also called the young SCOTt (the little legenD) of Akwa Ibom or Mr. Scottdale. Scottdale Nyeti is currently one of stars of the Nigerian music scene, with a lot of other musicians interested in doing collaborations with him. He has collaborated with young king s and st. oracle on the homekings award winning jikee (love life), with timaya on supa love, Spyder Man ON tebe ya sou(LET DEM SAY), st. oracle on can u read my mind and others.

AWARDS

Best RNB artiste in Government Technical college, 2010 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scottdale (talk • contribs) 19:48, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Sri Vidya Mandir Higher Secondary School ,Tirukovilur
Sri Vidya Mandir Higher Secondary School, is an educational institute in Tirukoilur located at  villupuram, Tamil Nadu, India. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.221.201.248 (talk) 13:48, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Are you are asking whether this school is notable enough for an article? Well... has the school been discussed in reliable sources that are independent of the school itself (books, newspapers, etc.)? Blueboar (talk) 15:32, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Monterey County Board of Supervisors
I'm getting more and more confused in AfC about what is notable. It appears this organization is notable enough for inclusion. There are five members and they spend money, I can get four others together and do that. I found it also interesting that this county was listed in the Board of Supervisors article when Maricopa County, Arizona, where they have removed members by shooting them, has not. At what level does this end? County, township, city, town, village, neighborhood? --  :- )  Don  16:39, 23 October 2012 (UTC)


 * You might want to read WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS... the Notability of a body of officials is not inherent in size or scope, but is determined by coverage in reliable sources. One body of officials may receive attention from the sources while another of the same scope and size does not. And the fact that one is deemed notable has no baring on whether another is deemed notable. Blueboar (talk) 15:20, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Just wanted to see if I was missing something. Only thing notable in references comes from history of county, it exists, and board meeting stuff, they exist. --  :- )   Don  16:19, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Request for Comment: Notability of TV station subchannel articles
Discussion about the notability of Subchannels is begin discussed again at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television Stations. --Spshu (talk) 20:06, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
 * 2nd Call for editors to comments as I would like to get enough editors to comment one way or the other to have more than a weak consensus.--Spshu (talk) 20:37, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

moosa pourghafari
moosa poorghafari Ref: Mobile: 0098-937-5813167 Tehrani, Iran SUMMARY

•Profile: Male, 31 , Married •Nationality: Iran •Current Location: Iran, Tehran •Current position: Expert Developer •Company: Telecommunication (Reporting to: Project Designer or Expert Developer) •Preferred Locations: Anywhere in Iran, Anywhere outside Iran •Salary expectation: 34,200,000 Rials per month

WORK EXPERIENCE

- Present Kaspid Tehran, Iran Project Manager Web Development (WPF-WCF-SilverLight) Design Test Plan - Feb 2001 Iran khodro Tehran, Iran Expert Developer Silverlight Windows & Web Developement BI Database Design & Administration - Jun 2003 Simaye Roshd Tehran, Iran Expert Developer Develope & A LMS-MIS-HIS Project - Aug 2005 MicroAfzar Tehran, Iran Project Artchitector Project Designer & Critical Development Komite Emdad Project - Jan 2007 Gold Software Group Tehran, Iran Project Manager & Designer Project Manager KMS-CRM-Accounting-Web Portals-CMS-Multimedia Portals EDUCATION

Computer Science OTHER CERTIFICATES

2008 MCTS Foundation, Iran 2008 MCTS WPF, Iran 2008 MSTS ASP.net, Iran IT Skills

Windows & Office tools •Office2007 Advanced Web programming & development •c#.net Expert •Asp.net Expert •Vb.net Expert •SqlServer-Oracle Expert •WPF-WCF-WF-Atlas-Telerik Expert LANGUAGES

•Persian (Farsi) Native •English Working knowledge •Arabic Basic •Turkish Basic COMMENTS

Top Computer Olympiad of Tehran Best Web Department Teacher in Mojtamafannji Tehran Best Programmer in IranKhodro

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Moosapourghafari (talk • contribs) 13:41, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Testing the waters with editors
Hello everyone,

I am new to the Wkipedia world and wanted to ask the community for some advice regarding a page that i wanted to create.

I am working on a web series with a few other guys and we have as of last Friday finished filming the series. I noticed that there is a section in Wikipedia for web series but it requires us to create a Wikipedia page before we get started — Preceding unsigned comment added by JasonWiele (talk • contribs) 00:17, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Testing the waters with editors
Hello everyone,

I am new to the Wkipedia world and wanted to ask the community for some advice regarding a page that i wanted to create.

I am working on a web series with a few other guys and we have as of last Friday finished filming the series. I noticed that there is a section in Wikipedia for web series but it requires us to create a Wikipedia page before we get started.

Would it be possible for me to put up a page on a Web Series that is set to release in January? There will be promo material that will be coming out in December slowly. My thought behind this was to grow the Wikipedia page as the series grows itself and take it that way.

I would appreciate any advice on this.

Thank you for your time.

Jason — Preceding unsigned comment added by JasonWiele (talk • contribs) 00:22, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

About magics of specific elements
In Chinese wikipedia there is an article zh:冰魔法 literally "ice magic". Supporting claims of its notability include its appearance in many fantasy novels and video games (e.g. Warcraft III), and a book by Scott Cunningham I have found recently. Though, this article has been left undeveloped for almost two years, and I am dubious whether this article should be kept. Besides, are there any widely-acknowledged researches about magic, especially those of elements?--Inspector (talk) 03:42, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, this is the wrong place to complain about that. The various language versions of Wikipedia are each different projects that have their own policies and guidelines governing them. So... You will have to log into the Chinese Wikipedia, find out what its notability policies and guidelines are... and argue the case for removal there.  Blueboar (talk) 13:51, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, it is fine to say different language versions adopt different policies, but those policies are much similar, and there is possibly something I can learn from. There is an article Magic (gaming) which mentions ice and fire as an example, though I don't know how well it does. I would also like to know if there exists any sources about this topic, or perhaps I'll need to ask in the reference desk.--Inspector (talk) 07:31, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

How Do I Return To My Article Draft?
I have started writing an article about a book series a girl I know of is writing. I wrote it in the draft area, but I don't know how to get back to it and continue writing it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AmethystAngel9741 (talk • contribs) 18:51, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * It appears that this is the first edit your account has made. Did you edit a page under an IP address? Livewireo (talk) 19:57, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Notable external links?
I have removed the external links from the article Aranmula Kottaram per WP:External but they keep being re-added by an ip see. I just wanted someone else to look over the links to make sure I am not crazy in my thoughts. Thanks -- Тимофей ЛееСуда . 18:42, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Hugh Montgomery (historian)
It would seem a herd of blindfolded deletionists have rampaged onto this article while I was in the process of making it with 6 delete votes cast for delete within 1 day, when the article was barely a stub. It urgently needs rescuing as the subject passes WP:SCHOLAR, WP:AUTHOR, WP:POLITICIAN and WP:SOLDIER (or at least one, take your pick) for arguments I have made on the AfD page Articles for deletion/Hugh Montgomery (historian). It would be handy if a herd of notability experts with some common sense could cast a vote or two on this article as it could set a precedent that would put a lot of other pages up for the cull. Paul Bedson ❉ talk ❉ 19:39, 8 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Read WP:CANVASS. You've just violated it. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 10:41, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Amira Ashraf
Amira Ashraf is a grade 6 student who loves to write stories,her best friend is zara amgad who is in grade 5!! Amira was born on April 3 2001. Her favorite teacher is Mr. Mohamed Abdel Fateh!! She is half English and half Egyptian. Amira is in The International School of Elite Education, its a new school in Cairo Egypt. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mira ashraf (talk • contribs) 13:26, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Flajolet Martin Algorithm/Hash sketches
Does it make sense to write an article on the Flajolet Martin algorithm (in some cases known as Hash sketches)? It appears first in  Flajolet/Martin (1985) "Probabitistic Counting Algorithms for Data Base Applications" and is further refined by Durand/Flajolet (2003) in "Loglog Counting of Large Cardinalities". Hash sketches are used to count the number of distinct elements in a set; they are capable of doing so even in "streaming mode", i.e. by just looking once at the data. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Navige (talk • contribs) 15:17, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Media sources and Fringe theorys
There is a discussion at WT:FRINGE about what types of sources do and do not establish notability when it comes to Fringe theories... especially as it relates to theories that are covered in media and non-scholarly sources... but not covered by scholarly sources. Outside opinions would be helpful. Blueboar (talk) 15:12, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Notability of natural gas fields, oil fields and coal mines
I note the proliferation of articles such as Terliczka gas field which merely note that a natural gas field or other petroleum deposit exists in some place, when it was discovered, when it began production, and what its proven reserves are, referenced to a listing of such petroleum deposits. Does each of these have to satisfy WP:N through multiple reliable and independent sources with significant coverage, or is every named and verifiable petroleum deposit inherently notable like an inhabited place, a professional athlete, or a geographic feature? Is there a minimum size for it to be inherently notable? Edison (talk) 00:16, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
 * There is already a page titled List of natural gas fields and the biggest natural gas fields are measured in 1012 cu ft and km3, or "trillion cubic feet" and "cubic kilometers". A reserve with less than 60 km3 and current production of only 0.057 km3, such as Barnett Shale, has spawned a rather significant page, so I think it would be reasonable to put the limit at 1.0 km 3. The Terliczka gas field just barely meets this criterion if you round up a little.


 * There is also a serious lack of "unit of measure" consistency on these pages. Can we agree to measure these things in 1012 cu ft and km3? AdventurousSquirrel (talk) 22:21, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Notability Leeenux
There has been some debate on the notability of Leeenux Linux in relation to whether the article should be deleted in a votes for deletion section. I am appealing for independent editor to examine the internet source provided by the article and any others you might find to determine whether it is notable. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EvilKeyboardCat (talk • contribs) 21:50, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Ada Munroe
Ada Munroe is a very young actress. Born in 9/08/99 She has been in Films,Commercials and Magazines. She has one older sister Lilly Blackwell. her sister age 15 has no experiences. Ada Munroe has been in training through John Casablancas She has been very successful in her career. She started modeling at a young age, 3 years old. She was born in England brought to America by her parents. She is not adopted in anyway. She has been attending requital school. She learns Japanese and English. In 2004 she was in a young child's fashion magazine, 2006 on a Trixs commercial 2010 she was doing a Disney Channel commercial. Ada has been trying to get in to Acting. She has been wanting to be an Actress since 2011. She is good friends with Disney Channels star Bella Thorne. Bella Thorne has been a great support in Ada's career. For a very young girl Ada has been having great amounts of Paparazzo following her. Her agent Linda Mcguer Has been a great support.In 2012 early March she has had a shark attack in Myrtle Beach, NC. A scar running up her leg has been covering up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Madisonlohan (talk • contribs) 03:12, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Creating Business Pages or Articles.
I guess I need help as I have recently read an article suggesting that business owners (found here:http://www.saltywaffle.com/10-tips-businesses-need-to-follow-for-their-online-reputation-management/) keep current their Wikipedia pages. I need help understanding this and if it truly belongs here then where to begin. All feedback welcome. Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Melrose10101 (talk • contribs) 19:02, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, as a business tip it does makes sense. The only problem is that a) most businesses are not notable enough to actually have a Wikipedia article and b) when they are, updates by the owners can create a WP:Conflict of interest.  Better to let others update the information. Blueboar (talk) 04:29, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

mathematical trick
Many entries in W. refer to various things as a "mathematical trick" but there is no general definition of such, which would (to me at least) seem to be of some value to the casual reader.

Stan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.54.133.12 (talk) 09:06, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Could you give us some examples of what you are referring to? Blueboar (talk) 15:09, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Sure...searching Wiki for "mathematical trick" yields: -- Planck postulate considered quantization as being purely a mathematical trick, rather than (as we now know) a fundamental change in our understanding of the world ... ................ Hermann Minkowski Einstein himself at first viewed Minkowski's treatment as a mere mathematical trick, before eventually realizing that a geometrical view ........... Chebyshev center (section Mathematical representation) Mathematical representation ... With a few simple mathematical tricks, it can be shown that the well-known constrained least squares (CLS) ... ................ Introduction to quantum mechanics (redirect from Non-mathematical quantum mechanics) view was that quantization was purely a mathematical trick, rather than (as we now know) a fundamental change in our understanding of the world .................. Lorentz ether theory Contrary to Lorentz, Poincaré saw more than a mathematical trick in the definition of local time, which he called Lorentz's "most ... 64 KB (9,504 words) - 14:20, 14 October 2012 N-body simulation Regularization is a mathematical trick to remove the singularity in the Newtonian law of gravitation for two particles which approach each ... -

As you see, lots of mentions about a "mathematical trick" without really saying what does (or does not) make a mathematical trick.

Stan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.54.133.12 (talk) 21:57, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I've asked over at the WP: Physics talk board, google results aren't really helping in this regard. If you ever have any math or science questions, you also may want to go to the Reference Desk for help. Livewireo (talk) 16:13, 29 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, the problem may be that there is no complete and fixed definition for the term "mathematical trick", but at least in my physics studies the term (or the German equivalent) was regularly used and recognized broadly across people. The meaning should therefore be clear for every physicist but could possibly bother non-physicists. However I think everybody with a basic knowledge of mathematics and/or physics should be able to derive the meaning from the context. -- Patrick87 (talk) 16:29, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
 * In physics the phrase "mathematical trick" is more commonly used to refer to a few handy methods like integration by parts and Fourier's trick. a13ean (talk) 16:43, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
 * To my mind, the phrase is generally intended to connote a lack of mathematical rigour associated with a technique or derivation, and sometimes an unexpected mathematical shortcut. — Quondum 04:40, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I would disagree. Mathematical tricks can certainly be rigorous. For example, Fourier's trick.


 * A mathematical trick is a mathematical method which works in the particular case, but is not the result of applying a well-known technique for solving a class of problems. Thus it is something which is arrived at by accident or by the esoteric intuition of an unusually experienced mathematician. JRSpriggs (talk) 08:07, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

SO! It's looking like there should be a Wiki entry for "mathematical trick"...is there agreement/support for this?

And who (someone more qualified than I) would like to create the entry?

Stan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.54.133.12 (talk) 16:04, 30 October 2012 (UTC)


 * The problem I see is that you got three different answers by three different people. And probably none of them would be very helpful for someone neither being physicist nor mathematician nor otherwise a little familiar with the matter. In the end I assume the term "mathematical trick" has no ultimate definition and the boundary what makes something a mathematic trick and what not is rather ambiguous. I'm afraid it'll be quite hard to write an helpful article (whoever dares to do it go ahead, though!) that is neither a collection of examples, nor a collecion of partially contradictory definitions, nor a definition that is kept so vague it actually tells the reader nothing at all. -- Patrick87 (talk) 19:04, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

>The problem I see is that you got three different answers by three different people.

And that is evidence that an authoritative article needs to be in Wiki, yes?

Stan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.54.133.12 (talk) 08:08, 31 October 2012 (UTC)


 * i, simple reader, always thought that a mathematical trick was something like: Step1: Think of any number. Step2: Multiply the number you have thought with 3. Step3: Add 45 with the result. Step4: Double the result. Step5: Divide the answer by 6. Step6: Take away the number you have thought from the answer, that is, subtract the answer from the number you have thought. Answer: 15 Soosim (talk) 08:32, 31 October 2012 (UTC)


 * OK, my two cents: There should absolutely not not not be a Wikpedia article called "mathematical trick".  That's the worst possible solution to this problem, if it is a problem, which I remain to be convinced of.  The expression mathematical trick does not have any special well-defined meaning apart from its use in ordinary English, so there is nothing to write an article about.
 * Anyone who finds that the expression is confusing in some particular Wikipedia article should consider rewording that article, not creating an original-researchy article gathering together the various disparate ways people have used the term just to be able to link to it. --Trovatore (talk) 21:19, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I cuncur with Trovatore's sentiment here. — Quondum 04:21, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

>Hi all, I'm doing my PhD in physics, and I guess I've never really stopped to think about "mathematical trick". I'm also not convinced there should be an article on it.

By the way, when physicists talk of a mathematical trick, I think they refer to a series of mathematical steps which have no direct physical significance. For example, in a given problem, you may solve an equation to get the motion of a trajectory. Perhaps you then impose the condition that at t=0, the projectile is moving at 10 meters per second. That is not a mathematical trick - it's just fitting the math to the physical problem.

As an example of a mathematical trick. You may have a variable and you don't know its value. You use "Fourier's trick" which involves multiplying by a specific function and integrating. It always gets you to the answer, but the actual moves you make can not be explained with physical intuition, they are just a "math trick" to determine the value of the variable.

Here's an example conversation I could have with a student:
 * Student: I don't understand why you're doing that step. What does it even mean to integrate over the temperature?
 * Me: It doesn't mean anything, it's just a mathematical trick to help us isolate this variable.

Monsterman222 (talk) 08:04, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Pollution fine notability
I've been looking at a few pages, including BP, ExxonMobil, and Royal Dutch Shell, and I've noticed inconsistency in the notability of environmental violations. Is there a standard for what is and what is not a notable fine? I think everyone would agree that BP's $4.5 billion fine for the Deepwater Horizon oil spill is notable, but it seem strange that, for example, there is a $50m, a $500,000, a $6.5m, and a few other smaller violations mentioned on the page. BP has annual revenue of $400b. If Wikipedia becomes a receptacle for every lawsuit that multi-billion dollar corporations lose, there will be no room for anything else.

I propose a percentage of annual revenue as the minimum criterion for inclusion of a fine. Perhaps 1%? Obviously, if a particular controversy received significant media attention and the fine did not cross the 1% threshold, it should be mentioned. AdventurousSquirrel (talk) 04:17, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
 * This isn't the correct venue to have this discussion. This board is for deciding when and if a specific topic merits a stand alone article at Wikipedia.  Discussions over what content to include and not include in any specific article should be held on that specific article's talk page.  -- Jayron  32  04:47, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, you are correct. My apologies. AdventurousSquirrel (talk) 23:05, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Places
Is there a Notability Standard for places? Is any place shown on a map notable? I'm particularly asking because I noticed Lower Croan, a single farmstead. The only reference given apart from maps is actually for a different building a quarter of a mile away. Rojomoke (talk) 08:45, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Generally speaking, named settlements or administrative divisions (being village, hamlet, town, city, township, municipality, etc.) are generally considered notable: nearly all such places exist in gazeteers and atlases and as such have secondary confirmation of their existance and notability. However, other geographic designations, such as neighborhoods, single properties, buildings, etc.  need to explicitly meet WP:GNG.   Notability (geographic features) has not been completely accepted, but does have some good summation of general attitudes at Wikipedia.  It does describe actual practice.  Also see Articles for deletion/Common outcomes which has some more guidance.  -- Jayron  32  02:13, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, if a subject is simply listed in a source which seeks to list all such subjects - ie. a gazeteer which lists every settlement in a country - that may not satisfy the WP:GNG. The gazeteer confirms their existence, rather than notability; we can be confident that each person in the phonebook exists, but that doesn't make them notable. Alas, we have many thousands of settlement-articles based on a row in a census table or a name & coordinate pair from a geographical database &c even though this fails the "significant coverage" requirement. However, in practice, as long as there's evidence that a settlement exists then it's likely to survive AfD. bobrayner (talk) 15:28, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

PARSIFAL and notability of scientific studies?
This article has a number of outstanding issues, but I wanted to ask if it's notable at all, and if there are any standards for the notability of scientific studies. It appears the results of the study were used for roughly 12 pubmed indexed papers, and have been discussed in the anthroposophical community, but otherwise have not been widely covered in the way that Minnesota Twin Family Study and Study of Health in Pomerania have. For further reference Longitudinal study has some more examples including some with and without articles here. Cheers, a13ean (talk) 22:21, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Notability of Michael Pollack
Can a person be notable for "regional" developments? I.E. being a major real estate developer in a major metropolitan area (with developments in three states and previous local notability in another metropolitan area)?

I found Articles for deletion/Michael Pollack and commented that there are reliable sources, but the debate closed as a delete.

With more sources I wrote User:WhisperToMe/Michael Pollack and I would like to move it into the mainspace. Is it notable enough?

See also User_talk:SwisterTwister and User_talk:Karanacs WhisperToMe (talk) 03:37, 29 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I was shocked to find there was no specialty criteria at WP:BIO for businesspeople. Scraping around a bit, I see at WP:POLITICIAN, "Major local political figures who have received significant press coverage" meet notability requirements, and I see at WP:CORP (hey, "Corporations are people" right? :-P ) it says "Evidence of attention by international or national, or at least regional, media is a strong indication of notability."  So there's some precedent for considering "local" people as notable, and "regional" media coverage counts.   Looking at your proposed AFC, I click through some of the sourcing, and I think you've got a winner.  I'd fully expect it to survive an AFD and if Articles_for_deletion/Michael_Pollack (2nd nomination) were to turn blue, I'd !vote to keep.    04:13, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Adding... I'm only commenting on whether the article satisfies Wikipedia notability criteria here. I agree with Swister that the article itself needs some rework.  It needs to be restructured in better chronological order, and it seems to go into too much detail about relatively trivial items.  Also, most of the sources cover the death of Daniel, and the AFC article only has one paragraph on that, so the balance of coverage needs work.  I didn't want to discourage you here though, that can all be fixed later.    04:24, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I'd be happy to work on the article a bit. A lot of the sources are about the son's death - though I tried to use them in other contexts e.g. stating other things about Pollack's businesses. WhisperToMe (talk) 16:02, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

If there are no other comments, I would like to move the article into the mainspace WhisperToMe (talk) 01:13, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Please see Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion WhisperToMe (talk) 00:11, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Now see Deletion_review/Log/2012_December_9 WhisperToMe (talk) 04:18, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Stirling Arcade - Notable building
I would like to submit a page about the history of the Stirling Arcade.

The Stirling Arcade is one of only 5 remaining Victorian shopping arcades in Scotland. The Stirling Arcade was the idea of William Crawford, a businessman and local councillor who owned properties in Murray Place and King Street. Crawford commissioned the architect John McLean to come up with a design. The project, which cost £20,000 (approximately £1m in 2010), was personally paid for by Crawford, and the Arcade was opened in 1881. It consisted of two hotels (one at either entrance), a theatre, 39 shops and six dwelling houses. It was an important part of the town of Stirling, and was just on the outskirts of what is now called The Old Town (old jail, castle etc).

The Arcade Theatre was the place to be when it first opened, with many kinds of performances, especially variety shows. The Val Gurney Dramatic Company performed here often, as did Will Fyffe and the great Sir Harry Lauder. In 1912 the Arcade Theatre changed its name to The Stirling Alhambra Theatre.

Since opening, the arcade has been called The Crawford Arcade (after William Crawford), The Alhambra Arcade (after the name of the theatre), and is now - following extensive refurbishment - called The Stirling Arcade. While it is still mainly used for retail, its use has changed a great deal in 130 years, as the list of shops then, compared to now, shows.

As the Arcade has an historical interest, and is still being used for retail, there is plenty of social and economic history in its past.

I researched it thoroughly, and have presented some of my findings on my website already. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Straitwurly (talk • contribs)


 * Please follow the articles for creation process.--ukexpat (talk) 18:36, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

visslan är ett smeknamn på vicktor västlund. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.23.40.208 (talk) 09:43, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

U.S. Legislation
I searched for about an hour and I cannot find anything relating to the notability of U.S. legislation like Obamacare. Obviously Obamacare is notable, but what about smaller bills? Is legislation de facto notable or is it only notable if it has significant coverage by secondary sources? Keep in mind, there are over a thousand pieces of federal legislation passed each year. AdventurousSquirrel (talk) 04:53, 8 December 2012 (UTC)


 * No topic is ever de facto (or inherently) notable.  We know Obamacare is notable, because it has been discussed extensively in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the topic (such as numerous newspaper articles and other media sources).  Other pieces of legislation may not have been (so they would not be notable). Blueboar (talk) 13:24, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Miss Universe contestants
Hello! I'm a bit concerned that every single contestant for Miss Universe 2012 (and, in effect, a number of contestants for previous contests) has a page, mostly because they may all fail WP:ONEEVENT. A great number of these pages have no reliable sources either. Can anyone give me advice on the situation? Wikiproject Beauty Contests seems to be inactive, and I would have asked there if it weren't. Sang&#39;gre Habagat (talk) 08:20, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Update: I've gone ahead and nominated a few articles for deletion as I was going through the main 2012 contest page (which had other problems besides failing WP:ONEEVENT), as well as voted in favor of deletion for those that were already up for discussion. Sang&#39;gre Habagat (talk) 13:17, 9 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't think this is a ONEEVENT situation... qualifying for the Miss Universe contest involves winning a series of contests. I would look to WP:NSPORT for a parallel.  The national contests are essentially the beauty pageant equivalent of winning a divisional title, thus qualifying to compete in an international championship tournament.
 * An alternative to deletion is MERGER (into Miss Nederland, which would appropriately list all winners of that contest through the years). Blueboar (talk) 18:05, 9 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Hm, yes, I did take that into consideration. However, considering the series of events culminates in Miss Universe, does it really qualify as separate events? I would prefer a merger mostly because it would avoid hundreds of poorly-sourced stubs about women who did nothing but compete in Miss Universe, and considering the inactivity of Wikiproject Beauty Pageants, nobody fixes any of them. There is also a problem after the contest is over, when a number of these women disappear from the public eye.
 * Also, what of contestants who were chosen as delegates instead of going through the national contests? Would they then fail ONEEVENT or would they be notable because the other women in the pageant are notable? Sang&#39;gre Habagat (talk) 00:01, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

WP:ORG
I would like to propose a similar guideline as WP:ORG but in regards to religion. Does anyone think this is a good idea? The background for this is several fruitless discussions about which religions are notable. Pass a Method  talk  09:03, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I would think a notable religion would be one that has been significantly discussed by reliable sources that are independent of the religion. In other words, those that pass our general notability guideline. Blueboar (talk) 13:14, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it would be better to stick with the general notability guideline. bobrayner (talk) 16:23, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Individual Sporting Event Pages
Hello, i am wondering if i can get some guidance on individual articles for mixed martial arts events. First let me warn you that this debate has become very entrenched.


 * On one side, people are wishing to have each UFC event represented as it's own article. There is a lot of confusion as to why some other sports, or some other groups or articles are permitted to be more complete with individual pages yet the UFC pages are often the subject of AfDs.


 * On the other side, people feel that individual UFC events violate any number of policies/guideline including WP:GNG, WP:CRYSTAL, WP:NTEMP, WP:NEVENT, and WP:NOT. In a nutshell they feel that while a few of these articles may be notable, the rest are not and are simply not appropriate for their own articles.

There had been an attempt to create an omnibus article for all events that took place in 2012, but the people who wish to have individual articles feel that the article became too long and did not function as well as individual articles.

WP:MMA has guidelines which appear to help with the AfDs of MMA related biography pages, AfDs are handled without much arguing and most often refer back to these guidelines. WP:MMA's guidelines on events are vague and do not seem to offer any assistance in the AfD process. A lot of the Wikipedia guidelines give direction in what to do if an event is already determined to be not-noteworthy, but they do not give concrete guidance in how to determine if an event is or is not noteworthy in the first place.

Please let me know if you would like examples of anything stated above.

I have tried my best to present this impartially, not sure how well i did. If it is appropriate i can further explain from the prospective of the "side" i'm on. Kevlar (talk) 23:39, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Have you tried WP:GNG. It's got some very good, very specific criteria for exactly this problem.  -- Jayron  32  01:34, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * ugg, i've done more research and just came across Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(sports)/Archive_12, i'm going to withdraw my request primarily because i don't want to be seen as WP:FORUMSHOPing. i had not even heard of that until i read that discussion. i may return at a later date, but i just feel like this post may be borderline inappropriate. thanks anyway. Kevlar (talk) 06:37, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Are articles listing a band's tour dates notable?
I'll offer Owl City concert tours as my example. A few items have what I would call reliable secondary sources, but the majority are from the artist or some ticket vending sites. This is essentially just a list of concert dates with nothing more listed. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:14, 10 December 2012 (UTC)


 * My guess is that the list of concert dates was hived off from the main article on the band. We do give some latitude to creating sub-articles for lists that would take up a lot of space if they were presented in a main article.
 * That said... I am concerned that such lists are essentially promotional in nature (even though they also cover past tours)... which violates WP:NOTADVERTIZING. I think they could be sent to AfD on that grounds. Blueboar (talk) 00:12, 11 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I have removed part of the list (those concerts that have not yet occurred) due to my concerns about advertizing. As for the rest, I would suggest that a column to indicate how each individual concert was received by critics would help to establish notability. Blueboar (talk) 15:54, 12 December 2012 (UTC)


 * That's what I was thinking, or at least a link that reviews the tour in general, otherwise, is a tour that plays "B rooms" notable?
 * A word on room sizes. Stadiums are usually considered the largest venue for tours, much like U2 or popular bands would play. Next in line you have concert halls. Next you have clubs with "A rooms" being the largest and then "B rooms" are venues that may seat 100 patrons. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:10, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Inherent notability for schools (again)
Please see: WT:Notability (organizations and companies) - the issue is inherent notability. Blueboar (talk) 15:42, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Joel Burns (politician)
Is he notable? Seems to only have local press and one CNN article. The lead suggested he as popular for speaking on LGBT issues that was caught on the ntional and int'l press. (the latter which is not shown)Lihaas (talk) 19:03, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Paris Jackson(Actor)
Could i write about the daughter King of Pop.(Timtebow7 (talk) 17:30, 15 December 2012 (UTC)) Wikipedia — Preceding unsigned comment added by Timtebow7 (talk • contribs) 17:25, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think is 11 year old daughter meets the threshold of WP:N, maybe once she's older and actually does something if she plans to follow her father's footsteps... so probably not a good one to start. — raeky  t  17:33, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * How about checking out WP:AFC or improving an article at WP:CLEAN or expanding a stub at CAT:STUBS. — raeky  t  17:31, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Vloggers
Any particular criteria for which vloggers meet the notability threshold? I was a little surprised to see that Laci Green was apparently deleted for non-notability. Not quite a household word, I guess, but I would think she was on about the same level as Jenna Marbles, who has a substantial article. - Jmabel &#124; Talk 00:16, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog
Is this notable? The only sources I can find are on the breed website itself, it's not recognized by any major organizations outside its own besides the American Canine Association (which I cannot establish any information on and just looking at the site leaves a bad taste in my mouth.) The only references I can find besides those are a mentions in a handful of news articles and on several blacklisted sites about a man that was mauled to death by one. -- Ti ku ko  06:57, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * If there's no substantial coverage by independent sources, then it fails the general notability guideline. bobrayner (talk) 14:38, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Genrikh Graftio
We probably need some opinions on the notability, see Articles for deletion/Genrikh Graftio. In short, the guy was one of the founders of the GOELRO plan and an USSR Academy of Sciences full member. My opponent argues that (i) the Great Soviet Encyclopedia is not reliable, and therefore it can not really prove he was an Academy Member; (ii) even if he was, the USSR Academy of Sciences does not qualify as a selective high-level academy mentioned in #3 of WP:ACADEMIC. I find both point absurd, but may be it is just me. The best is to continue on the AfD page.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:37, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

If an article contains nothing not in the wiktionary entry, does it need an article?
Also if the a phrase, when Googled, mostly comes up in dictionaries, is it notable? E.g. reverse ferret and its wiktionary article.--Cornellier (talk) 23:56, 23 December 2012 (UTC)


 * The question to ask isn't whether the existing text is basically just a definition. The question to ask is whether it could realistically ever be a real article.  The example you give seems to me like it might go either way.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:32, 24 December 2012 (UTC)


 * WhatamIdoing has it right... the question is whether the Wikipedia article can go beyond just the definition and derivation. Things I would expect the article to eventually address: What was the impact of the term in relation to its broader subject area?  Did the coining of the term change the way people think about organizational policy statements?  Did "reverse ferret" become the standard way to refer to a reversal of policy (or was it simply a short lived "term of the moment")?  Did the term grow in meaning beyond its original application? Blueboar (talk) 01:54, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
 * A real-life example: In developing the Wikipedia article Roddon from its definition like beginnings we have, I feel, made it more encyclopaedic -- Senra (talk) 13:41, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

erol cevikce
Erol Cevikce, (December 8, 1937, Istanbul) Turkish politician, a CHP deputy Former Minister of Public Works and Transportation The first generation of teachers and the Museum of the Republic Kazim Cevikce and oldest families in the city of Amasya’s Erol is the son of Hacer's daughter Cününoğulları oldest families. Çevikçe Kılıçaslan Primary School and Secondary School of Amasya in Istanbul Kabatas graduated from high school. Graduated from Istanbul University Faculty of Economics. Robert College then studied first English by reading the preparatory class today at Bosphorus University. Examination at the time of Prime Minister Ismet Inonu entered the State Planning Organization. He had the opportunity to work The first planing staff. Master Degree at the University of Pittsburgh, USA in 1968-1969. Thesis subject "Turkey's Economic Planning Experience"was on. He maried with Perihan Cevikce(Korkut) Phd,works, SIS Expert Assistant in America. The eldest of the two daughters of Sila, Department of Economics, Bogazici University, and jazz pianist. The architecture of the youngest daughter graduated from Istanbul Technical University. The task of the State Planning Organisation, continued until the elections of October 1973. He was the first planning expert who member of Parliament in 1973 with a call to Ecevit. In 1974 the Government of the CHP Adana as the Deputy Ministry of Public Works became. He was elected Member of Parliament from Amasya in 1977. 1980 Transport Minister Ecevit Government of second post, because it is politically banned.1992 economic consultant in the private sector has left his life. Congress has returned to active politics in 1988. Deputy Chairman of the CHP was re-opened in 1992. Adana re-elected as a deputy in the 1995 elections. Except for 1999 when the parliamentary election CHP, Deniz Baykal, who insisted that the General Directorate pulled his head to leave. He was not a candidate for parliment rather then. Left politics in the Assembly. In the political life, has been serving as a member of the CHP. He is currently writing weekly newspaper of VATAN. In 2012, "the CHP and a lifetime"'s book was published — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.224.0.230 (talk) 19:41, 25 December 2012 (UTC)