Wikipedia:Peer review/Adelaide Rams/archive2

===Adelaide Rams===
 * Previous peer review
 * A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style; it can be found on the automated peer review page for March 2009.
 * A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style; it can be found on the automated peer review page for March 2009.

This peer review discussion has been closed. I've listed this article for peer review because I'm looking to improve this article from good article status to featured article status.

Thanks,   The Windler      talk   04:01, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Comments from :Note: Because of its length, this peer review is not transcluded. It is still open and located at Peer review/Adelaide Rams/archive2.
 * You said you wanted to know what to work on before taking to FAC, and my first suggestion would be to get your references into order. A number of your website references lack publisher and/or last access dates, which are the bare minimum needed for WP:V. Books need publisher, author, and page number on top of title. When you've got those mostly straightened out, drop me a note on my talk page and I'll be glad to come back and look at the actual sources themselves, and see how they look in terms of reliability, like I would at FAC. 13:21, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Brianboulton comments

I have so far only read the first few sections thoroughly, and glanced over the rest.
 * Lead: Needs expanding, as at present it is not an adequate summary of the whole article per WP:LEAD. Also it has some untidy prose, for example "eventually" is not necessary, as you have specified 1997. However, since the whole lead will probably be rewritten, such things will no doubt be taken care of.
 * History:
 * Multiple issues with the first sentence: "South Australia, one of the six states of Australia, had been dominated by the Australian rules football code, with two teams competing in the national Australian rules football code competition, the Australian Football League (AFL)."
 * Repetitions: "Australia" or "Australian occurs five times, and the phrase "Australian rules football code" is repeated in quick succession
 * Attempted to fix.   The Windler      talk   01:10, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I assume by "dominated" you mean in footballing terms, rather than generally
 * Fixed   The Windler      talk   01:10, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * "had been" needs some kind of general time reference like "for more than a century", or even "for many years".
 * Added time reference.   The Windler      talk   01:10, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that, rather than just saying "Australia" you should give he official name Commonwealth of Australia
 * No-one refers to Australia as the Commonwealth of Australia, it's Australia, and being Australian, I would not use the official name.   The Windler      talk   01:10, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thus, you get a sentence like: "For many years South Australia, one of the six states of the Commonwealth of Australia, had been dominated in footballing terms by the Australian rules football code, with two teams competing in the Australian Football League (AFL)."
 * It might be clearer to say Adelaide was a "Rules" stronghold rather than an AFL stronghold (people forget what initials mean). Also, I suggest you say: "the possibility of the city sustaining rugby league..."
 * Formation
 * News Limited? Why not News Corporation?
 * News Corporation owns News Limited, which is the company that did own the Adelaide Rams, News Corporation in Australia is what refer to the American company, it is News Limited over here.   The Windler      talk   01:10, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * "...to test the possibility of a team from the South Australian capital." This reads like an incomplete sentence. If you change "possibilty" to "viability", it will make more sense.
 * Fixed.   The Windler      talk   01:10, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * "These matches were successful..." – needs expanding, e.g. "These matches were successful in attracting public support..."
 * "...but with the NSWRL already in the process of setting up a 20-team competition, it was hard for them to admit any further teams." So why did they bother holding the trial matches? Some further explanation is needed here.
 * I am totally confused by this sentence: "In 1995, the media company News Limited began developing a competition, which was branded the Australian Rugby League premiership (ARL), as a rival to the NSWRL."  Eh? Didn't the ARL begin in 1924? So the link tells me, so can you explain what this sentence means?
 * Reading on, it looks as though what News Limited did was to start a rival to both the ARL and the NSWRL, which they called "Super League". They persuaded eight ARL teams to sign up, and then looked around for more teams. Is this the case? If so, this paragraph needs to be completely rewritten to reflect the situation.
 * "...In June 1995, the South Australian Rugby League (SARL), which governs the game of rugby league in South Australia, officially signed with Super League, who subsequently gave the SARL a licence to form a franchise..." Can you explain the nature of this franchise, clarifying what SARL were able to do?
 * Tenth team to compete in the 1996 Super League competition - but there wasn't a 1996 competition, so that statement needs rephrasing.
 * "...an appeal saw The Super League successfully appealed the ruling". Mangled phrase. And why has it become "The Super League" rather than "Super League" as previously?
 * Another sentence that stumbles over itself: "The SARL appointed Liz Dawson, the former Auckland Warriors marketing manager, as the first female chief executive of any ARL or Super League club to be the Rams' chief executive." This needs to be rewritten as: "As the Rams' chief executive SARL appointed the former Auckland Warriors marketing manager Liz Dawson, the first female chief executive of any ARL or Super League club."

I am only about a quarter-way through and, as you can see, the problems have mounted up. The article has had a GA review, so I am a bit surprised that the prose hasn't had a more thorough checking. If you are prepared to address these problems and let me know when you have dealt with them, I'll look again. May I also say that, whatever the problems with the prose, the statistical information is very clearly presented. Brianboulton (talk) 22:27, 30 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your time to review this article, I will soon get to many of your queries, unfortunately I wrote a majority of this article and my English and prose is not great. So I will probably need a copyedit anyway. Thank you again. Do you mind if I strike some of your concerns out and/or add comments or queries I have below each dot point.   The Windler      talk   06:27, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * No objection to your responding as you suggest. Brianboulton (talk) 20:22, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Hopefully I have addressed your concerns above, some not exactly as you have suggested, but I would appreciate if you complete the peer review, thankyou,   The Windler      talk   09:48, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

A few final review comments from me. I have asked another experienced reviewer to look over the article, which should give you a decent idea where you stand.
 * I still think the lead needs expanding, for example by including a bit more about the club's formation history, and possibly something about the political factors (club mergers, reduced league size, etc) that contributed to the club's early demise.
 * The article is relatively lightly cited. Of 34 inline citations, more than half are from one source, and most of the rest from one other. This may be unavoidable with a sports team that enjoyed such a short life span. You seem to have solved the question of formatting mentioned by Ealdgyth earlier in the review, but it might be worth giving her a ping. She did say she'd come back and look again.
 * On the question of sources, I see that the information in your excellent tables is not cited to anywhere. The source of this information must be made clear.

Brianboulton (talk) 22:48, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you, unfortunately most news sources from the 1990s have been archived and require a fee to open, but there should be more sources that this teams article I have contributed to. I have created a new section on my sandbox here which I felt (with a copyedit and possible expansion) may be worthy of inclusion. I am also trying to find sources about Rugby league in South Australia before the Rams came along. And what are your thoughts on a table on all the players like here. Thanks,    The Windler      talk   23:18, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Finetooth comments: Here are a few more suggestions from someone who knows almost nothing about rugby.

Lead
 * "and the second in the National Rugby League's first season in 1998" - Since you use NRL by itself later in the lead, the first instance should include the acronym. It's a bit awkward to use the acronym with an apostrophe, so I'd suggest re-casting slightly: "and the second in the first season of the National Rugby League (NRL) in 1998". I'd also suggest adding the acronym to "Australian Rugby League competition in 1997", thus: "Australian Rugby League (ARL) competition in 1997" earlier in the lead.
 * "They remain the only team from the state of South Australia to have participated in top-level rugby league in Australia." - Missing word? Should this say "the top-level rugby league"? I see the phrase is used later in the article without "the", so maybe this is OK as is.

Background
 * "Sport in South Australia was long dominated by the Australian rules football code, which had been introduced to the state in 1877,[1] with two teams competing in the national Rules competition, the Australian Football League (AFL)." - The "with plus -ing" construction is deprecated because ungrammatical. Suggestion: "The Australian rules football code, introduced to the state in 1877, had long dominated sport in South Australia. It mandated that two teams compete each year in the national Rules competition, the Australian Football League (AFL)." It's possible that I am misunderstanding the meaning of "football code". I'm equating it to "rule book". It might be good to include a brief explanation of "code".
 * "competing in the national Rules competition" - What is Rules, and why is it capitalised?
 * "the possibility of the city sustaining rugby league, a code relatively unknown to the South Australian public" - How can a league be a code? Please bear in mind a large potential audience of readers who are clueless about rugby rules and rugby terms.

Formation
 * "The New South Wales Rugby League premiership (NSWRL) had begun in 1908, as a rugby league competition for clubs in the Sydney region of Australia until the 1980s." - It didn't continue to begin in the 1980s. Suggestion: "The New South Wales Rugby League premiership (NSWRL) had begun in 1908 and continued through the 1980s as a rugby league competition for clubs in the Sydney region."

Individual records
 * "Appo has also scored the most tries for the Rams with 12; Williamson, with 45, holds the record for most goals." - Since they are no longer playing, shouldn't this be "Appo had also scored... "?
 * "Kevin Campion in 1997 was the club's only representative player... " "Representative player" needs to be explained.

Team performance summary
 * "The Rams had a 32.14% win percentage for all of their premiership games, which makes them statistically the sixth worst team in first grade rugby league in Australia, out of 33 teams." - "Made" instead of "makes"? Presumably this ranking could change with time if other teams do worse. The number of teams might change as well.


 * "These trial games were popular, with the St. George and Balmain match attracting over 28,000 people in 1991, the highest crowd attendance for any rugby league game in South Australia to date." - Another "with plus -ing". Suggestion: "These trial games were popular. In 1991, the St. George and Balmain match attracted more than 28,000 people, the largest attendance for any rugby league game in South Australia." I'd also drop the ambiguous "to date" from the end of the sentence.
 * "and around 10,000 supported the fixtures in 1994 and 1995" - The word "fixtures" should be linked or explained.
 * "In June 1995 the South Australian Rugby League (SARL), which governs the game of rugby league in South Australia... " Delete "game of"?

Inaugural season
 * "The club had appointed St. George Dragons mentor Rod Reddy to be their inaugural coach, along with two-time NSWRL premiership-winning hooker Kerrod Walters from the Brisbane Broncos to be the first captain of the team." - Too many adjectives in front of "Kerrod Walters". Suggestion: "The club had appointed St. George Dragons mentor Rod Reddy to be their inaugural coach. Kerrod Walters, a hooker who had twice won an NSWRL premiership with the Brisbane Broncos, was named first captain of the team." Also, "premiership" needs to be explained or linked.
 * "This meant that three teams would be axed... " - Slang. "abandoned"? "eliminated"? "dropped"?

Final season
 * "Subsequent attempts to merge with a Sydney club failed, and the NRL wound the Rams up on the 1 December 1998." - Slang. "eliminated"?

Image
 * The logo in the infobox has license problems. As one of the tags on the license page says, "This tag is not sufficient on its own. You must also include the source of the work, all available copyright information, and a detailed non-free use rationale."

I hope these suggestions prove helpful. Finetooth (talk) 03:17, 20 April 2009 (UTC)