Wikipedia:Peer review/Ali Hewson/archive1

Ali Hewson
This peer review discussion has been closed. I've listed this article for peer review because I would like to know if it meets the criteria.

Thanks,  Miss Bono   (zootalk)  12:04, 19 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I think Miss Bono means that she wants the article to meet the FA criteria. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 11:00, 25 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that's right. Sorry.  Miss Bono   (zootalk)  12:37, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Article review
Hey; Miss Bono asked me to give this article a once-over. Some initial thoughts on the lead/general article structure:

Lead and more

 * 1) The section titles ("Career as activist" and "Career as businesswoman") strike me as a bit off solely because they don't properly parse (Career as a...). Having said that, "as a" increases the complexity - have you considered just having "Activism career" and "Business career" or, even better, "Activism" and "Business career" (since people who are activists rarely make money out of it, although I've known a few). ✅
 * 2) "She has a degree in politics and sociology from University College Dublin in 1989." - this reads as "she only had the degree in 1989". I would suggest "She gained a degree in politics and sociology from University College Dublin in 1989." or "she was awarded a degree..." ✅
 * 3) "Hewson began a career as an activist in the 1990s" - career again. Maybe "Hewson became involved in anti-nuclear activism in the 1990s"? ✅
 * 4) "with Irish activist Adi Roche" - is her nationality a crucial factor here? I'd just go with "activist Adi Roche". ✅
 * 5) "Tabloid newspapers have mentioned Hewson as a possible Labour Party candidate for President of Ireland but no such attempt has been made." - I'd add a comma after "Ireland", although YMMV. Is "no such attempt has been made" accurate? From reading the article it sounds a lot like she's refused to be considered . What should I add instead for it don't sound as she's refused to be considered?
 * Hmn. How about "Hewson has been repeatedly been discussed by tabloid newspapers as a possible candidate for political offices, including President of Ireland. As of 2013, none of these suggestions have come to fruition"? I've added offices solely because of the MEP suggestion. Ironholds (talk) 19:25, 14 August 2013 (UTC) ✅
 * 1) " two ventures in the ethical business field" - "two ethical businesses"? ✅

More feedback in a bit :). Ironholds (talk) 17:22, 14 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the feedback Ironholds.  Miss Bono  [zootalk]  17:40, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I tweaked two of these, see the edit summaries for rationale, will discuss here if any disagreement. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:09, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Seems reasonable; thanks :). Ironholds (talk) 03:48, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Early life
Further thoughts: More later :). Ironholds (talk) 04:08, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) In "early life", you can double-barrel "well known" into "well-known". ✅
 * 2) Ditto - "raised their children in the Protestant faith" can be simplified to "raised their children as Protestants". ✅
 * 3) "according to his daughter" - "according to Hewson", maybe? ✅
 * 4) Inline citations should go after punctuation - so, "Alison studied at Mount Temple Comprehensive School,[10] where" ✅
 * 5) " but at first she kept her distance" - "but she initially kept her distance" ✅
 * 6) "In September 1976, Paul met the other members of what would become U2.[ Alison and Paul began dating around the same time. The band members adopted nicknames and Paul Hewson soon became known as Bono. He and Ali, as she was known, soon became a steady couple in the Dublin area." - "In September 1976, Paul met the other members of what would become U2; the band members adopted nicknames, and Paul soon became known as Bono. At around the same time, he and Ali began dating, and soon became a steady couple in the Dublin area". ✅
 * 7) I'd suggest a comma before "but soon reunited". ✅
 * 8) "on efforts" or "in his efforts"? ✅
 * 9) "Meanwhile" - "in the meantime,"? ✅

Thanks again Ironholds :)  Miss Bono  [zootalk]  12:24, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Marriage and family
Okay, thoughts on "Marriage and family":
 * 1) "She married" - "Hewson married" ✅
 * 2) Again, footnotes, punctuation.... I'd suggest just putting all three citations at the end of that first sentence at the end, or better yet working some commas in.
 * The problem with putting them all at the end is that we lose the association of which footnote goes with which fact (especially after the bots come that reorder them). In articles like this one, that concern lesser-known subjects, we often have to scrape together facts from disparate sources, and that's why we end up with sentences like this one.  I also don't think there's a requirement that footnotes follow punctuation - WP:INTEGRITY has a discussion of this, and the example at the end shows the advantage that putting footnotes immediately after words sometimes provides.  Wasted Time R (talk) 03:28, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * That's a good point, and why I included the "better yet" suggestion. Text/source integrity should be maintained wherever possible; including commas is a good way of doing that (in fact, I actually disagree with the example given in WP:INTEGRITY because it bunches everything up at the end of the sentence, past several possible breakpoints). Ironholds (talk) 03:52, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Unless you can figure out a way to add commas without making the sentence structure forced, I think it's best to leave these alone. Wasted Time R (talk) 02:27, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Point. I'd independently argue for a comma before "In a Church of Ireland ceremony" but I can't think of a way to split up the entire sentence. Ironholds (talk) 05:52, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Point. I'd independently argue for a comma before "In a Church of Ireland ceremony" but I can't think of a way to split up the entire sentence. Ironholds (talk) 05:52, 17 August 2013 (UTC)


 * 1) label - record label ✅
 * 2) "ready funds" strikes me as a bit off. Maybe just "could not afford a honeymoon" ✅
 * 3) "label head" - "Island founder" ✅
 * 4) "At first, the newly married couple shared a small mews house in Howth with the rest of the band" - why at first? Usually that would be "at first X, but then Y"; there's no Y. How about "Having returned to Ireland, the couple moved to a small mews house in Howth, which they shared with the rest of U2". ✅
 * 5) The sentence after that seems like the sort of thing that should be in "Early life", around when Bono started the band. ✅
 * 6) "gave up on the notion as" - "gave up on the notion, as" ✅
 * 7) "incompatible with the directions" - "incompatible with the direction" ✅
 * 8) "Being effectively a single parent during the times U2 toured was difficult for Ali, but she found Bono helpful even at a distance" - "Being effectively a single parent while U2 toured was difficult for Hewson, but she found Bono helpful even at a distance" ✅
 * 9) Maybe merge those last two paragraphs? ✅
 * I disagree with the merge. The idea was to have a separate paragraph that contains the birth of her four children.  That's a momentous event and deserves paragraph-level focus.  Yes, it means treatment of her further education gets split across a paragraph boundary, but that's appropriate, as having children coincided with the end of her undergraduate period and forestalled any graduate study.  Wasted Time R (talk) 02:27, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * A good rationale :). Ironholds (talk) 02:46, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

More later :). Ironholds (talk) 21:49, 15 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks,   Miss Bono  [zootalk]  12:08, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Activism

 * 1) "In fall 1985" - fall is an Americanism. "In Autumn 1985". ✅
 * Actually, per WP:RELTIME we aren't supposed to use either, except that if sources use those terms, it's hard for us to know a more specific timeframe. Wasted Time R (talk) 02:27, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeed. In the absence of more specificity I'd advocate going for the Commonwealth rather than the AmEng phrase, in line with the manual of style. Ironholds (talk) 05:55, 17 August 2013 (UTC)


 * 1) "She saw children with no possessions and at risk of death who appeared more spiritually alive than those in Ireland with material comforts but who seemed spoiled and spiritually unaware. Hewson felt unexpectedly enriched by the experience" - the first statement, here, comes off as a statement of fact, when actually it's a statement of her opinion. I think a direct quote might work better.
 * If you look at the source, the quote would be pretty bulky, but how about this revision for the paraphrase: "She saw children with no possessions and at risk of death. To her, though, they appeared more spiritually alive than those in Ireland who had material comforts but seemed spoiled and spiritually unaware." Wasted Time R (talk) 02:27, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Better, but I'd suggest something like "despite this, to her they appeared..." Ironholds (talk) 05:55, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Works for me. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:54, 17 August 2013 (UTC)  ✅


 * 1) "In 1986, the couple travelled in strife-torn" - "to strife-torn" (also solves for the repetition of "in" in that sentence in that paragraph in the article and in the quote of the sentence in the article on the talkpage in Wikipedia.... :P) ✅
 * 2) "She was especially set against the under-construction Thermal Oxide Reprocessing Plant component being opened" - "being opened" seems extraneous here.
 * 3) "Upon the request of activist Adi Roche" - "After a request by activist Adi Roche" ✅
 * 4) "as part of narrating" - "to narrate part of" ✅
 * 5) "Another reviewer said that the documentary was very effective until she started speaking" - can we get a quote here?
 * It's a paraphrase in the Hot Press source: "She blushes at the suggestion, countering the praise with a quote from one reviewer who claimed that the documentary is hugely effective -- until Ali speaks." So that's what it is here too. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:30, 28 August 2013 (UTC)


 * 1) "up-to-2,500-mile (4,000 km) trips to Belarus and other areas in the region despite risk to her own health" covering 2,500 miles of land, or travelling 2,500 miles to get there?
 * The latter, presumably, since water has to be crossed. The source said 2,500 miles, but it is really more like 1,800 miles unless taking a really circuitous route, so I added the "up to" as a safe fudge factor. Wasted Time R (talk) 02:27, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * In that case I'm somewhat unclear on the relevance; according to the internet I travel twice that to go to work. It doesn't seem, in and of itself, something worth noting unless we're suggesting that the distance itself is impressive or a factor, and in the days of jet aeroplanes I'm not sure how it would be. Ironholds (talk) 05:55, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * At least some of her trips have been via on-the-road convoys, which probably is pretty grueling. But I'm okay with taking the distance out if we're not sure of it.  Wasted Time R (talk) 11:54, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * In that case, can we specify that somehow? Ironholds (talk) 14:53, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I've taken the distance out, but clarified that some of the trips there have been overland. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:30, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Adding more comments now. Ironholds (talk) 22:14, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

More in a tick :). Ironholds (talk) 22:34, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks :)  Miss Bono  [zootalk]  13:01, 19 August 2013 (UTC)


 * 1) "Since 1994, Hewson has been a patron of Chernobyl Children's Project International[30] (since 2010, known as Chernobyl Children International)" - would the naming comment work better as a note, do you think? That way you avoid the repetition of "Since" and the elongation of the sentence (and can also, fairly naturally, put the footnote after punctuation).
 * This article doesn't have explanatory Notes right now and it would look awkward to have just one for this minor matter. I've rephrased the parenthetical to "(shortened to Chernobyl Children International in 2010)" which avoids the "since" repetition.  Wasted Time R (talk) 12:41, 31 August 2013 (UTC)


 * 1) "children, families, and communities who" - "families who" and "communities who" don't seem to mesh; "children, families, and communities that"? ✅
 * 2) "Over the years" seems extraneous.
 * 3) "Belarus and other areas in the region" - Belarus is a nation rather than an area. "Belarus and other nations in the region"? ✅
 * 4) "despite risk to her own health" - "despite the risk to her health" ✅
 * 5) "overland aid convoys" - "overland" feels extraneous, particularly because it's implied by the next bit of the sentence (driving ambulances) ✅
 * I've restored "overland" as I don't think it's clearly implied by the rest (the ambulance might have been picked up at an airport and driven to the destination, for example). Wasted Time R (talk) 12:41, 31 August 2013 (UTC)


 * 1) "further explored the collaboration between Hewson and Roche and the close friendship that resulted" - further to what? ✅
 * 2) "She was aware from the outset of her activities" - "of her activities" seems extraneous given that it's a thematic section.
 * I've removed it. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:41, 31 August 2013 (UTC)


 * 1) "Ladies who lunch" - lower case L? ✅
 * 2) "engage themselves in charitable activities" - "themselves is extraneous" ✅
 * 3) Lots of repetition of Sellafield. "The plant" sometimes? ✅
 * 4) "It also meant that she too would not always be around for the couple's children" - surely driving ambulances to irradiated areas had the same impact?
 * Well, now she had four children to be away from, compared to two in the mid-1990s. I've changed it to "Her continued activism also meant ...". Wasted Time R (talk) 12:41, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Sure, but the number of children is somewhat secondary here, unless the ambulance only fit one activist and two podlings ;p. Ironholds (talk) 16:12, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

More later :). Ironholds (talk) 23:38, 29 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks Ironholds, I did the most part but I didn't know what to do with the others. I hope you can help.  ZooTgirl  [zootalk]  12:37, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm okay with the rest of Miss Bono's changes here. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:41, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you both Ironholds and Wasted Time R Miss Bono  [zootalk]  14:49, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

That's it for Activism! Ironholds (talk) 16:30, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) "At the same time that the postcard effort was reaching its peak" - "As the postcard effort was reaching its peak"? ✅
 * 2) Suggest "tabloid reports" be changed to "tabloid newspapers", with a link to an appropriate article for non-europeans (presumably Tabloid (newspaper format) or Tabloid journalism) ✅
 * 3) " came in fourth with Adi Roche" - just Roche, maybe? She's been mentioned many times before in the article, after all. ✅
 * 4) "her girls" - "her daughters"?✅
 * 5) "one of the latter organisation's prominent members" - is this referring to the Museum? If so, I'd just say "as a prominent member of the Museum". What does member mean here, exactly - director, trustee...? ✅

Business career
More in a tick :). Ironholds (talk) 16:30, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) ""nude" spelled backwards, to suggest both "natural" and the Garden of Eden)." - thoughts on this going in a note, too? (as said, happy to format it at my end). ✅
 * 2) "Hewson herself had never much been interested in fashion prior" - "Hewson had not been particularly interested in fashion prior" ✅
 * 3) "succeed as a business, but in this it struggled" - "profit to be considered a success as a business, but in this it struggled" ✅
 * 4) "It lost €9.7 million in 2007 and did still worse in 2008, by the end of which it had some €8.7 million in debts" - "It lost €9.7 million in 2007 and even more in 2008, by the end of which it was €8.7 million in debt" ✅

Thanks :)  Miss Bono  [zootalk]  14:54, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Some more:
 * 1) " By 2010, the company had sourced much of its new fashion line manufacturing to China, making for some negative publicity, while simpler garments were still African-made" - " By 2010, the company had outsourced much of the manufacturing for its new fashion line to China, generating some negative reactions: simpler garments were still African-made" ✅
 * 2) "but that over time she hoped more work could be done in Africa." - "but that she hoped more work could be done in Africa in the future." (the structure of the former makes it sound like her desire to see work done in Africa was increasing over time) ✅
 * 3) "Hewson devoted a large amount of time throughout to Edun" - "throughout" is extraneous. ✅
 * 4) "proposition still remained difficult" - "the business still struggled"? ✅
 * 5) "Hewson is also co-founder of Nude skincare with Bryan Meehan, a luxury, natural skincare company" - "Hewson is also co-founder, along with Bryan Meehan, of Nude skincare - a luxury, natural skincare company" (unless Bryan Meehan is a luxury, natural skincare company. Which I'd pay to see :D) ✅
 * 6) "the venture sought to combine ethical principles and environmentally friendly yet chic packaging[6][57] with a high-performance product based upon probiotics and omega oils" - this is a runon sentence which is a sentence that just keeps going and going without any kind of punctuation and some users like that and I don't know what the readers think of it but personally I basically follow the idea that you should try and reduce sentence length as much as possible and at all cost provide punctuation that offers a chance for the reader to pause because otherwise sentences can go on forever and they start to hurt your eyes breathes. :P. I'd suggest "the venture sought to combine ethical principles and environmentally friendly, yet chic, packaging,[6][57] with a high-performance product based on probiotics and omega oils". ✅
 * Alas, I do sometimes end up writing run-on sentences. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:43, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * 1) "Its products have garnered some favourable notices among beauty publications" - "Its products have been favourably reviewed by beauty magazines" - is there any way we can give examples of people/institutions who have been supportive? Have there been negative reactions as well? ✅
 * Don't have any more on this. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:43, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

One (and a bit) more sections to go! Ironholds (talk) 16:07, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Italicise and link "eau de toilette" ✅
 * 2) Can we link the Stella perfume? No worries if not.
 * 3) "Hewson lost in High Court when Mr Justice Floyd ruled against her" - "Hewson lost in the High Court when Mr Justice Floyd ruled against her" ✅
 * 4) "they previously could only imagine" - this comes off a bit weasel-y. "they previously lacked"? ✅
 * Thanks Oliver :)  Miss Bono  [zootalk]  16:42, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * By the way, when this very attentive review is over, I think it should really be moved from here into Peer_review/Ali_Hewson/archive1 and show up as such in the 'Article milestones', because a peer review is essentially what this is. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:47, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Sure; I'm kinda flattered by "very attentive", mind (this is basically just me reading the article out loud, chunk by chunk, and then furrowing my brow on occasion and writing down why). Ironholds (talk) 03:58, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You rock Ironholds! :) Your help is very appreciated :)  Miss Bono  [zootalk]  14:00, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Hewson and U2

 * 1) "Songs written by Bono that were at least in part inspired by Ali go back to the earliest period of the band's recording career, with the track "Another Time, Another Place" off their 1980 debut album, Boy." - "Hewson has inspired many Bono-authored U2 songs, going back to the track "Another Time, Another Place" from their 1980 debut album Boy" ✅
 * 2) " and especially in the lyric composition for" - "particularly in composing the lyrics to" ✅
 * 3) "She was the inspiration for the personal themes of "New Year's Day" on that record as well." - "She also inspired the personal themes in "New Year's Day", from the same album." ✅
 * 4) "for some years" is probably extraneous. ✅
 * 5) "whilst recording with the band during The Joshua Tree sessions" can be simplified to "while recording The Joshua Tree" (while or whilst? Wasted Time, help me out here?) ✅
 * 'Whilst' is a British English equivalent of 'while'. Wasted Time R (talk) 10:15, 9 September 2013 (UTC)


 * 1) " wrote the lyric of the 1988 song "All I Want Is You" as a meditation to the idea of commitment" - " wrote the lyrics of the 1988 song "All I Want Is You" as a meditation on the idea of commitment" - if we're talking meditation in the literary sense. ✅
 * 2) "and in particular on "Staring at the Sun"" - "particularly on "Staring at the Sun"" ✅
 * 3) "Hewson did perform a duet with her husband whilst taking on Lady Gaga's "Telephone"," - "Hewson did perform Lady Gaga's Telephone, as a duet with her husband," ✅
 * 4) "where Bono and Ali often mix" - "where Bono and Hewson often mix"
 * 5) Ditto "Ali in particular"; consistency between "Ali" or "Hewson" is good.
 * WP:SURNAME "Family members with the same surname" gives latitude to use first names in family contexts where the last name can be confusing. Here it's even more confusing, because Bono goes by one name but his real surname is Hewson.  So when I wrote it, I tried to avoid "Bono and Hewson" and instead went for "Bono and Ali".  In contexts where Bono is less prominent, I went with "Hewson" for her.  Wasted Time R (talk) 10:15, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Aha, that makes a lot of sense; I was unaware of Bono's birth surname :). Ironholds (talk) 19:43, 14 September 2013 (UTC)


 * 1) "In one case she brought on Helena Christensen as an ambassador for Chernobyl Children's Project,[33] and she is also a member of the board of directors of Christensen's SEIMEI Fund" looks like it'd be good in a note; I'll add those myself.
 * 2) I'm not sure if "responses" are what we're looking for here. Maybe just "public perception"? Or "Critical responses"? By definition we don't have any way of defining what the private perception is of either of them. "While her husband has provoked a variety of critical responses, some negative, responses towards Hewson have generally been favourable, characterising her as down-to-earth."
 * Good point! Second "response" onwards changed to "assessments" maybe? Ironholds (talk) 19:43, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) The "But" opening the quote "But I really...." is probably unnecessary. ✅
 * 1) The "But" opening the quote "But I really...." is probably unnecessary. ✅

That's it! One chunk to go :). Ironholds (talk) 16:57, 7 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks :D  Miss Bono  [zootalk]  17:15, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Awards and honours
...now copyedited :). Ironholds (talk) 22:45, 27 September 2013 (UTC)