Wikipedia:Peer review/André Messager/archive1

André Messager
This peer review discussion has been closed. I've listed this article for peer review because I have taken it as far as I can without further input. Ssilvers has copy-edited and made lots of excellent suggestions, and now I should welcome further suggestions from other interested editors on content, proportion and balance (e.g. between Messager as composer and as conductor, and whether there is too much about the English aspects of his career). I should also welcome comment on whether to aim for GA or FA with the article in something like its present form.

Thank you, Tim riley (talk) 11:33, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Comment This could easily be a great article with the mandatory ce and some re-writting, good job! Sandman888 (talk) Latest PR 09:13, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Lead
 * "famous" pov
 * Dealt with – Tim riley (talk) 20:50, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * "extraordinarily"
 * Dealt with – Tim riley (talk) 20:50, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * "He was the only French composer to write an original Savoy Opera." he is or was the first
 * The existing wording is correct, I think. – Tim riley (talk) 20:50, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * "Covent Garden" remove or indicate the locations of other operas
 * We need the location (there are other "Royal Opera Houses" in Europe). The Parisian ones are already made clear. – Tim riley (talk) 20:50, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * "well-known" redundant
 * Dealt with – Tim riley (talk) 20:50, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Biography
 * "It was not a musical household, but the young boy had his first musical exposure on a piano in the house." sounds copied from a bio, bit colloquial. "His family were not practitioners of music, but ..." or something.
 * Dealt with – Tim riley (talk) 20:50, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * DONT pipe in french wiki links. I don't want to go to a french wikisite, redlink instead.
 * Dealt with – Tim riley (talk) 20:50, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * "Four of Messager's musical mentors: Saint-Saëns; Fauré (top); Chabrier; Gigout (bottom)" remove top and bottom, use (from left to right)
 * "Left to right" doesn't work when there are two rows, as here, but I'll ponder whether another form of captioning might be clearer than the one in situ
 * I agree. It is clear as is.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:16, 26 August 2010 (UTC)


 * "Also in 1883, Messager married a distant cousin, Edith Clouette.[1] Fauré played the organ at the ceremony.[10]" remove also, and try to remove also in the rest of the text when it starts.
 * Dealt with – Tim riley (talk) 20:50, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm confused. Now the date seems to be 1885.  Is it 1883 or 1885?  -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:16, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
 * 1883 it is. Hence my original "Also in 1883" after the digression to 1885, but all is clear now, I think. Tim riley (talk) 15:39, 28 August 2010 (UTC)


 * "Covent Garden" which links to Royal Opera House, don't do that. It should be clear what is linked. No surprises please.
 * Dealt with – Tim riley (talk) 20:50, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * "Messager kept pace with the change in fashion in musical theatre," ? what does that mean?
 * It means what it says. As the fashion changed from operetta to musical comedy, Messager kept pace with it – most commendable in one of his advanced years. – Tim riley (talk) 20:50, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * "consciously adopting the styles of musical comedy, lightening his orchestration, *"but maintaining a Gallic flavour, mostly avoiding American dance-rhythm influences" is this from his presentation at the Opera site? That does not meet WP:RS being blatant advertisement. It also reads as advertisement.
 * Grove and all sources agree on this. En passant I wholly disagree about the Operette site, which is run by a valuable national institution: the Académie Nationale de l'Opérette was founded in 1971 by the musical director of the state-run Théâtre du Châtelet.
 * I don't think it reads like an advertisement at all. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:16, 26 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Recordings
 * Were any of his recordings published back then? If so they are public domain, and some of his work in a wave-file or ogg would be great!
 * I quite agree, but this is not within my area of expertise. – Tim riley (talk) 20:50, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I am greatly obliged for these stimulating comments. I'll go through them carefully and amend as needed. Many thanks. – Tim riley (talk) 17:05, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Brianboulton comments: A few initial observations, with more to come soon:-
 * Can something be done about beginning the article with a one-sentence paragraph? Maybe move the second sentence of the second paragraph so that the opening reads:-

"André Charles Prosper Messager (30 December 1853 – 24 February 1929), was a French composer, organist, pianist, conductor and administrator. His stage compositions included ballets and 30 opéra comiques and operettas, among which Véronique had lasting success, with Les p'tites Michu and Monsieur Beaucaire also becoming international sensations."

You would then need to tweak the second paragraph a bit, but I think you would have a much stronger beginning.


 * This was a super idea. Done.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:48, 26 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Some of your image captions, particularly those relating to scenes from Messager's stage works, could be more detailed and informative.


 * I added more detail to the captions for some of the places, but I don't think we need too much more detail for the scenes of the stage works, since they are described in the accompanying text. I'd suggest keeping them as concise as possible.  I'll let Tim "ponder" and also deal with the reference issues below. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:48, 26 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The "Notes" and "References" sections need attention. For example:-
 * The "Notes" cover too many different things: citations, some uncited footnotes, record reference numbers and some (to me) incomprehensible information - for example, ref 79. What is "8.553638" referring to?
 * I am aware that there is a move (e.g. among the Opera Project folk) to separate pure citation footnotes from footnotes that give incidental discursive information. You have done so in Mahler articles. I have much sympathy with the practice, but (furtive look over shoulder) there are those of the contrary opinion. I'll see what I can do to make the rough places plain. "8.553638" for example is the CD company's catalogue number, which I have put in as analogous to an ISBN. I'll make this clearer. Tim riley (talk) 15:32, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I have no objection IF it's usual, eh Lord Chamberlain? Seriously, though, can you assure me that the newer FA biography articles are mostly doing it this way?  It strikes me as busy and not really helpful.  I would like to follow fashion on citation format, not lead it.  Let's do whatever is now customary and required in BIO Feature Articles.  -- Ssilvers (talk)
 * Some citations, e.g. "Buckle", "Massin", appear to be to whole books.
 * Indeed. They are not my contributions, but seemed to me too good to delete. I have ordered these two books at the British Library and will check the page refs before proceeding forrarder. Tim riley (talk)
 * References in foreign languages are not indicated.
 * Very good point. Shall follow up. Tim riley (talk) 15:32, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Brianboulton (talk) 22:32, 26 August 2010 (UTC) Small fact: By chance, Messager features in today's (Friday 27th) Composer of the Week on BBC Radio 3. Excerpts from Veronique at noon; stand by your beds. Brianboulton (talk) 07:17, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * And very nice too! There is room for petits maîtres in between the Symphonists of a Thousand. Greatly obliged for your input on this one. Gabriel Fauré will be surfacing in due course, too, so stand by to repel boarders. Tim riley (talk) 15:32, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Fauré was beastly about Tosca so he can expect no mercy from me. I await his appearance with eagerness. Brianboulton (talk) 22:43, 28 August 2010 (UTC)