Wikipedia:Peer review/Arnold Bax/archive1

Arnold Bax
. I've overhauled this article, which was almost entirely uncited. I find that the new material added is more substantial than I originally intended, and I think the article may perhaps have the potential for GA. (I have no aspirations to FA for it). Any comments will be gratefully received on length, proportion and pretty much anything.  Tim riley  talk    21:54, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Comments from the Doctor

 * Lede
 * "he came to be regarded as an important but isolated musical figure." Generally by everybody, or in the eyes of music critics?
 * The latter and those concert-goers who knew of him. Expanded accordingly.  Tim riley  talk    15:32, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Biographically I must admit I would have expected the lede to be a bit more informative. It tells me little about his life. I gather there's not much about him biographically anyway?
 * Apart from his various girlfriends, who don't I think, qualify for the lead. (Though on reflection Harriet Cohen probably does. I've worked her in, not too obviously shoehorned in, I hope.)  Tim riley  talk    15:32, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think he's one of those who don't have a tremendous amount to say biographically and the article reflects what is written in sources.♦ Dr. Blofeld  17:32, 21 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Early years
 * "Hampstead Conservatoire" -is the French spelling really used in Hampstead?
 * Yes (they're a posh lot in Hampstead).  Tim riley  talk    15:32, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Any reason why only Wagner's surname is given but Richard Strauss fully given?
 * Only to avoid the theoretical confusion between Richard and the Waltz King. I could almost certainly get away with just "Strauss", but belt and braces, you know!  Tim riley  talk    15:32, 21 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Early career
 * '86 -a little informal
 * Formalised.  Tim riley  talk    15:32, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Chester Terrace, Regent's Park -I think add London here as there's a few Regent parks about the place. It might be obvious to you as a Londoner but not so much to others!
 * True enough! Done.  Tim riley  talk    15:32, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * "Dublin literary circles, " -perhaps be more specific and mention one or two of the most notable ones if they have articles? If not, no worries.
 * I wondered about this. The most eminent was George William Russell a.k.a. "Æ" (don't ask me why), who is pretty obscure these days. I've shoved him in now: he may mean something to a reader of the article at some time.  Tim riley  talk    15:32, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * 1940s
 * "In the opinion of The Times " -do we know the critic who gave the opinion?
 * A deep secret: Times obituarists were, and still are, strictly anonymous. I'd be inclined to guess it was the chief music critic of the day, Frank Howes, but that's just my speculation.  Tim riley  talk    15:32, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Haha, there's probably a very good reason for that. One false claim in an obituary of a prominent figure might come back to haunt the journalist!♦ Dr. Blofeld  17:34, 21 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Neglect
 * "critic Stephen Moss observed in The Guardian in 2007," -the Guardian is already linked, though a redirect from The Manchester Guardian.
 * I'm never sure what to do about this when the pre- and post-1959 names of the paper are in the same article. To many readers, particularly overseas ones (assuming this article gets any!), The Guardian and The Manchester Guardian could be as distinct as The Times and the New York Times. A duplicate link isn't ideal, but I think it's the lesser of two evils.  Tim riley  talk    15:32, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes it's difficult to know what to do. I'm still of the opinion that The Manchester Guardian article should cover the history of the paper up to 1959. But it needs to be done so that it is very comprehensive, too detailed for the main Guardian article, and also needs to avoid implying that it is a different newspaper. expressed an interest at one point and I believe has a big book with a lot of material which could be used but I don't think he's as active anymore.♦  Dr. Blofeld  17:30, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

♦ Dr. Blofeld  12:23, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Honours
 * Can you state the address of the house of the blue plaque in Streatham? Knowing that the reader out of curiosity can then look it up on google street view.
 * Of course. Never occurred to me. Done.  Tim riley  talk    15:32, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * All good stuff, Doc! Thank you.  Tim riley  talk    15:32, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Looks in a good shape, look forward to seeing it at FAC!♦ Dr. Blofeld  17:32, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Dr. Blofeld – Do you really think it of FA standard? As I said at the top of this page, I had GA in mind, rather than FA, but I can of course be persuaded otherwise if experienced FAC habitues so tell me.  Tim riley  talk    18:07, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I think you've got to assess each person individually. What may not be adequate coverage for one biography may be sufficient for another at FA level. It depends on the coverage in sources doesn't it? My first thought with Bax was that biographically it wasn't particularly detailed, but I certainly thought the musical coverage was quite adequate for FA level. If there's really not much more else to say about him then yes, I think a decent peer review might whip him into the best possible shape. It's never going to be one of those really illustrious biographical articles of one of the great classical composers which have dozens of books written about them. Carl Nielsen biographically I don't think is a great article, but we did what we could and overall it's sufficient. I think the same could probably be said of Bax. Let's see what the others think after the review anyway.♦ Dr. Blofeld  18:39, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll follow that advice. Thank you, Doctor.  Tim riley  talk    18:45, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I did miss the part where you said about "not having aspirations for FA" so my comments about him biographically were against the FA criteria rather than GA. Perhaps you can still add a fair bit more from books about him, but I don't think he appears to be one of those composers where a great deal can be said of interest biographically. Like Nielsen, it should be possible I think. It's certainly easily GA level of course. ♦ Dr. Blofeld  18:52, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Comments from SchroCat
What an excellent and informative article on someone I had little knowledge of previously. As far as GA goes, this is a shoe-in; I would suggest a foray into FAC for this as it certainly reaches the right level to my mind. A few comments, mostly nit-picking...


 * Early years
 * It seems odd to have the view of The Times's obituarist on Bax's work so early in the article.
 * True. Pruned to leave it just as The Times.


 * Early career
 * "The first of pieces" needs an article
 * Done.
 * "The Observer found..." and "The Times commented..." Sir Brian (and you, come to think of it) have rapped my knuckles over this before: an inanimate object can do nothing of the sort! It is a format repeated in a few places further on too.
 * I think Sir B (faithfully echoed by me) objects to "The Times wrote..." on the grounds that papers don't write themselves, but I don't think he boggles, and I definitely don't, at the idea that papers comment or find etc.   Tim riley  talk    19:09, 2 October 2015 (UTC)


 * First World War
 * "His Symphonic Variations for Piano and Orchestra..." his who? Bax or Bjørnson?
 * Quite so. Ambiguity nailed.  Tim riley  talk    19:09, 2 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Inter-War years
 * "twenty-three-year-old": shouldn't that be "twenty three-year-old"?
 * I think almost certainly not, but I tend to hide behind the sofa when hyphens are flying about. The Guardian had a cracker of a correction recently: "The omission of a hyphen after the word 'sheep' meant readers were informed that the ancient Philistines of the Gaza coast were attacked by a curious combination of 'savage sheep and goat-herding Hebrew tribes'." I'll ask the wonderful Chris the speller to look at the article after this PR.  Tim riley  talk    19:09, 2 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Vocal music
 * '"In the morning", "Across the door" (1921), "Rann of exile" (1922) and "Watching the needleboats"': is the capitalisation right here?
 * Not sure about this. I'll have a rummage in the MoS to see if we use title case or sentence case for song titles.  Tim riley  talk    19:09, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

That's it on the prose. I'll go through the sources and some of the formatting a little later. Hope this all helps. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 16:18, 23 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Excellent! I'll enjoy going through these. Thank you, sir!  Tim riley  talk    17:25, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
 * And now done. Warmest thanks, as always.  Tim riley  talk    19:09, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Comments from Midnightblueowl
This isn't my field of specialty whatsoever (in fact I'd never heard of Bax before), but I would like to offer a few observations, particularly regarding the lede, if I may. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:09, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
 * No infobox? I know that they aren't absolutely necessary but they do seem to be standard practice so I'm surprised that there is not one here. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:09, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
 * The consensus on the classical music project is to avoid IBs for composers. This makes sense, because if you put all a composer's major works in, the IB becomes elephantine, and if you don't there's no point to the IB. The idea is to put all the important info in the lead, which brings us to ...


 * Generally speaking, I feel that the lede could do with being fleshed out a little. If you look at my recent FA, Mortimer Wheeler, I put together a lede that was a fair bit longer than the one in this article, and while I would not necessarily recommend this article having a lede as long as the Wheeler article, I think that an expansion would benefit it. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:09, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes. Dr Blofeld has glanced at this too. I'll trawl through the main text and see what I can find to beef up the lead.  Tim riley  talk    20:23, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
 * There are always comparatively minor things such as place of birth which I usually incorporate into the ledes of those biographical articles that I work on, and which could certainly be added here. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:41, 2 October 2015 (UTC)


 * We use the word "composer", but composer of what? If its classical music, then we should say so, very explicitly, right there in the opening sentence. After all, are creators of house, reggae, and country music not composers too? Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:09, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Interesting. I'll ponder how best this could be phrased without making a production number of it.  Tim riley  talk    20:23, 2 October 2015 (UTC)


 * I think that we could also see a slight reorganisation of the lede paragraphs. I would suggest that the first paragraph spend more time discussing why Bax was significant, thus establishing his notability. I would then suggest opening the second paragraph with the information about his early life. Perhaps it's down to personal taste, but I do think that said structure works a little better. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:14, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree, and will juggle when up-beefing, as proposed above. Thank you very much for these points. It really helps having the input of someone quite new to a subject: the fresh perspective is most valuable.  Tim riley  talk    20:23, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
 * It's no problem, Tim. If you want me to come back and have a second look at some point just drop me a line! Best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:41, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

A few passing comments from BB
Excellent composer biog. A few standard quibbles:
 * Did the RAM disapprove of R. Strauss and Debussy, or just the latter?
 * "In addition to modern composers, another influence on the young Bax was the Irish poet W. B. Yeats. Bax's brother Clifford introduced him to Yeats's poetry and to Ireland". I think this clunks a bit. I would drop the first four words, and mildly repunctuate, thus: "Another influence on the young Bax was the Irish poet W. B. Yeats; Bax's brother Clifford introduced him to Yeats's poetry, and to Ireland". Still not sure, though.
 * "Bax returned to the UK" – we're probably more likely to say he returned home: "to the UK" is a bit yankified ( apologies to Gary ) NB I see Bax returns to "England" in the next section.
 * Pipe-link "short score"?
 * I take it that Glencolmcille and Morar were the locations of "holiday homes", rathet than random locations?
 * I'm a bit bothered by the group photo. First, the link to source is dead, so we can't check the source details. Secondly, a "life of author plus 70 years" tag is meaningless when we don't know who the author was. It can't be assumed in 2015 that the person who took a photograph between 1923 and 1931 has been dead for more than 70 years. Unless/until there is more information forthcoming and we can properly licence it, I'd be inclined to drop this image.
 * "occasional pieces for royal occasions" is a mite repetitive.
 * "White Horse hotel" – I think I'd capitalise the "h": – you probably wouldn't write "Ritz hote" or "Savoy hotel".
 * "the Seventh has an elegiac tone, its simplicity far removed from the discursive and complex music of Bax's earlier years" - whose opinion?
 * I'd be interested to know how the 1948 concertante piece got its name Variations on the Name Gabriel Fauré – what was the connection?
 * As Bax grew older he found sparer, more classical forms increasingly to his taste. Fauré appealed to him (sensible man), and he wrote the little piece as a tribute, just as Ravel had done with his Berceuse sur le nom de Gabriel Fauré
 * Give a year for Liz's 21st birthday (1947 I think)
 * "A four-movement suite was published after the release of the film" - does this refer to Twist or Malta?
 * Overture to a Picaresque Comedy: Give year, as you do with other works mentioned.
 * Fiona MacLeod: Perhaps you should explain this pseudonym rather than requiring readers to use a link to find out why the name is in inverted commas
 * The phrase "Writing in 1919, Evans..." .begins two separate subdivisions in the Music section. This is after you have previously said "In a study of Bax in 1919 his friend the critic Edwin Evans..." Seems unnecessarily repetitive.
 * "Foreman singles out..." is followed by a list of five pieces, so not "singling", really.
 * " the Russians" is a little on the vague side. Who?
 * The first "Honours and legacy" sentence has rather too many "ands" in it.

That's all. Worth more than a GA, I'm sure. Brianboulton (talk) 20:29, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Brian. All your points have been acted on, except for the Fauré question, which I have answered above. Thank you very much.  Tim riley  talk    22:07, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Cliftonian quibbles
Honestly never heard of this chap so I will focus mostly on prose issues as I have a look through.


 * "He was encouraged by his parents to pursue a musical career, and his private income enabled him to follow the musical path he preferred ... He came to be regarded in musical circles" you have the word "musical" thrice in short succession
 * Lead looks very good otherwise.

Biography
 * "The couple's youngest son, Clifford Lea Bax" I would either put a comma after "Bax" here or lose the one before
 * "a young Ukrainian woman, Natalia Skarginska, one of several women" woman, women—slight repetition. How did he meet Natalia? Was she musical in some way?
 * We mention and wikilink the Easter rising in the First World War section, but it is also mentioned in a quote slightly further up. Just thought I'd say.
 * "In a study of Bax in 1919 his friend the critic Edwin Evans commented" This is a very long time not to have a comma anywhere. I'd put one after "1919"
 * We say in "Inter-war years" that Bax was considered the leading English symphonist, but in the lead we say he was the leading British symphonist.
 * "The Daily Telegraph observed that any humour in the piece was sardonic" perhaps "suggested" instead of "observed"—the latter sounds a bit like we are endorsing that view
 * Who was Mary Gleaves? Was she actually a nurse?
 * Friend of friends, and not musical. They just clicked. She looked after the old boy in his later years, but Cohen's crack about her being his nurse was mere cattiness about someone she saw as a rival.  Tim riley  talk    16:41, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Ah, okay. —  Cliftonian   (talk)  17:04, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Why was he surprised to be knighted? Why was he knighted?
 * He was a bit of an outsider, and his sympathies with the Irish Republicans had not gone unnoticed, I imagine, but that's just my speculation. All that the sources say is that he neither expected nor sought the honour. As to why he got it, the ways of the Honours List were even more opaque then than they are now. His friend and fellow composer John Ireland was hopping mad that Bax got a K and he didn't, and there is no discernible reason why one did and the other didn't.  Tim riley  talk    16:41, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Perhaps some careless functionary saw John Ireland's name and presumed that he was the one making all these comments about Irish republicans. Odd in any case. Thanks for the explanation. —  Cliftonian   (talk)  17:04, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Perhaps clarify that Jascha Heifetz was a great violinist. I didn't know.
 * Great stuff overall.

That's all for now—I may come back later but the article looks to be in excellent shape, as I have come to expect from Tim. Well done and thanks again! Have a great week. —  Cliftonian   (talk)  13:22, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for these comments. Except for the two points on which I have commented above, I've acted on all of them.  Tim riley  talk    16:41, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks Tim. A pleasure as always. —  Cliftonian   (talk)  17:04, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Image Review
My assessment of the images used: Thankfully there are no major concerns. Snuggums (talk / edits) 23:22, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
 * File:Arnold-Bax-iln-2Dec22p.jpg and File:Frederick Corder 001.jpg are properly licensed
 * While File:Sackville Street (Dublin) after the 1916 Easter Rising.JPG has appropriate licensing, I'm not sure how it is particularly beneficial to the article.
 * Here and elsewhere, one's options (with WP's draconian rules on admissibility) are limited for related images to break up the slabs of text.  Tim riley  talk    08:15, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Try to use a different word than "muse" in the caption for File:Harriet-Cohen-1922.jpg since not everyone reading this article is automatically going to know what that term means.
 * I am surprised at this. No other reviewer seems to have thought it a hard word.  Tim riley  talk    08:15, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Not sure how File:Storrington.JPG or File:Bax-In-the-Faery-Hills.jpg benefit the article
 * File:Bax's-poets.jpg is properly licensed, though four pics in one spot seems overkill; better to go with just one or two in one spot
 * I disagree, but to each his own.  Tim riley  talk    08:15, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't know how File:Bax-Second-Violin-Sonata-scherzo.jpg benefits the article
 * I wasn't expecting an image review at peer review, but am of course most grateful for the above, nonetheless.  Tim riley  talk    06:46, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Comments by Wehwalt
Very nicely done. My usual quibbles:
 * Lede
 * I might delete the comma after "composer" in the second sentence of the second paragraph.
 * Done.  Tim riley  talk    08:15, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * "He came to be regarded ..." this seems slightly out of place and might find a happier home in the fourth paragraph.
 * It's a case of post hoc ergo propter, and I've left it where it was but added "consequently" before it.
 * The sentence regarding Ms. Cohen seems to have two ands. You may want to cut the first one.
 * Done.  Tim riley  talk    08:15, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Regarding the change from Celtic to Nordic. This seems given much greater emphasis and certainty in the lede than in the body.  I'm thinking specifically of Foreman's comments in the "Symphonies" section, but it's really not presented as long-lived in the biographical part of the article either.
 * Modified.  Tim riley  talk    08:15, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Early life
 * It's a bit unclear if the "pomp" referred to is on the part of Bax in attending or the headmaster in presiding.
 * Redrawn.  Tim riley  talk    08:15, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * " English folk-song and -dance " the unusual structure takes a moment to think about and so is an impediment to the free flow of prose.
 * I dithered for ages over this, trying to decide if the hyphen was better or worse than repeating "folk". I have gone for the latter now.  Tim riley  talk    08:15, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Since this section does not mention his date of birth, it is thus unsourced in the lede. I think a date or two should be inserted in the second paragraph as the reader faced with "the time" would, to ascertain the same, have to go to the first paragraph of the lede to obtain a birthdate. American readers may not know at what age he was likely to be sent to a conservatoire.
 * Done.
 * "he did not develop the discipline to express his imagination to the greatest effect." Hm. Maybe "he did not develop the discipline to completely express his imagination".  As it is, it sort of trails off.
 * Oh, Lord! It's the English superstition about split infinitives. A perfectly idiotic superstition it is, but I still feel ill at ease splitting an infinitive, and I think I'll stick with the trailing off.  Tim riley  talk    08:15, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Early career
 * "Bax's private means enabled him to travel to Russia in the same year." you append a "following year" to the last actual mention of a year (1909). So it is unclear what "same year" refers to, 1909 or 1910.
 * Clarified.  Tim riley  talk    08:15, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * "The visit contributed to his formative musical experiences" possibly this could be more pleasingly phrased? Too many polysyllables and a bit vague.
 * Redrawn.  Tim riley  talk    08:15, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * "Having given up his pursuit of Skarginska, Bax returned to England, and in January 1911 he married the pianist Elsita Luisa Sobrino " strike "he" to save space, perhaps, in what becomes quite a long sentence
 * Redrawn
 * Totally out of curiosity, how did he describe himself in these Dublin circles?
 * Quite a few of his circle didn't know his real name, but from the sources I can't work out to my satisfaction how assiduously Bax passed off his person, rather than just his writing, under the O'Byrne alias.  Tim riley  talk    08:15, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * First war
 * Can we perhaps have a link or pipe for "special constable"? also (later) tone poem.
 * Done.  Tim riley  talk    08:15, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * "overseas" that is, France?
 * Mostly, but not exclusively. Holst was sent to Greece, for instance.
 * Interwar
 * "elided" I'd link to wiktionary. Ditto nonet.
 * As to the first, perhaps I'd better cast about for a synonym that doesn't need a link to a dictionary. As to the second, I'm reluctant to put a link in, as the reader may well think he or she is getting a link to an article on the work in question rather than a generic term. For my own part it irritates me when that happens to me.  Tim riley  talk    08:15, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Music
 * If the sources will stand it, more prose outside the quotations might be helpful to the reader.
 * Interesting point. I'll have a ponder: there should be something ad rem in the sources.  Tim riley  talk    08:15, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Vocal
 * Very nice way of opening this section, I must say.
 * Thank you, sir!  Tim riley  talk    08:15, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * "Hold considers the setting of Housman's "In the morning" (1926) to be one of the best of all settings of the poet's works" In addition to the settings/settings, it isn't clear whether poem or adaptation dates from 1926. I'd also note that the juxtaposition of the two, differently capitalised titles is a bit jarring.
 * Attended to.  Tim riley  talk    08:15, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Chamber
 * "the third and fourth are both in conventional three-movement form" I would strike "both"
 * Done.  Tim riley  talk    08:15, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Recordings
 * "At 2015 the latter lists more than 250 works by Bax that have been recorded and published." It's the "at 2015", which may sound oddly on American ears.
 * Redrawn.  Tim riley  talk    08:15, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * That's it. Interesting read.  I will confess I had not heard of Bax, but enjoyed reading about him.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:45, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Wehwalt. Some really top-notch stuff above, for which I am most grateful.  Tim riley  talk    08:15, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Closing the PR now, with warmest thanks for the many valuable suggestions, above.  Tim riley  talk    08:32, 9 October 2015 (UTC)